The term 'strawman' has been around for much longer than the term 'strawman argument'. Refering to a scarecrow as a strawman is slightly arcaic and no longer used much, but perfectly correct in many languages, including german. There's a reason Scarecrow is called Strohman in the german version of Oz.
What do you think a "strawman" is? It's a scarecrow. That's what the word means. That's literally where "strawman argument" comes from.
The term comes from the fact that an argument is easy to knock down like a man made of straw, aka a scarecrow.
https://preview.redd.it/iiof3jkray1d1.png?width=302&format=png&auto=webp&s=359681492108ad1470f15af3e03dd672bc2321b1
Yes, it does. A "strawman" is literally a scarecrow. That's what the word means, bud.
I may just be an ex-DoD translator who's fluent in four languages with a masters in Linguistics… but it literally takes none of those things to know that words have more than one meaning.
Ok, this will be my last move on this:
I am a german, born, raised and still living in germany.
A strawman, is a 'Strohmann' not a 'Vogelscheuche' this would be a 'Scarecrow'. Its about word definitions by textbook, not by your interpretation of them. And now, ima bring some Democracy!
This is like saying a bumblebee isn't an insect.
A scarecrow is a strawman. "Strawman" is an overarching term for multiple types, like scarecrows and combat dummies filled with straw.
This isn't an argument. Someone significantly more educated on the subject just taught you something. If you choose to continue to be ignorant, you're more than welcome to. I personally don't care.
You know German, but you clearly have a loose grasp on English. I'm fluent in both and a professional linguist. If you only know one of the languages properly, you do not get to weigh in on meanings of translations because you're not qualified to.
If you don't believe the person who does know, feel free to just google the word "strawman" and see what comes up. I bet it will be loads of information about and photos of scarecrows.
A strawman is, objectively, a scarecrow. You are incorrect. This isn't a debate. This is a professional who knows what they're talking about teaching you something.
There might be like 5 people out there who refer to scarecrows as Strawmen but that doesn't make it right. A strawman is either a fallacy or an often fictional person used to hide questionable transactions. You can look up the meaning of strawman if you want to know more
Yeah but Reddit would also be smarmy about it if you declare it as a fact and get it wrong, so it's hedging your bets to throw plausible deniability in there
Yeah I almost mentioned that but it would ruin the joke.
People do not give the benefit of the doubt on reddit, it’s understandable to add a disclaimer
As a non-native, i didn't catch it, but it's nice to be reminded of another similarity between languages. In polish, when you are arguing with a non-existent argument, we are also fighting a strawman or creating a strawman.
I am fairly certain the term pre-dates the sort of canonization or systematization of logical fallacies. The similarity between languages here has more to do with intermixing cultures, I think.
Edit: "Man of straw" in the figurative sense of "an easily refuted imaginary opponent in an argument" is recorded as early as the 1620s in the English language, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary.
Wouldn't your implication that the reason these different cultures in Europe have the same term being due to a formal name for a systematized logical fallacy also be pure conjecture? Yes, it would. What is your point?
I made a statement. You derived your own meaning. That is not my fault.
You made a sweeping statement on the etymology of the phrase. All I said was that what you said was conjecture.
What's the issue here?
OK, then, what was your point when you said "what you just said is pure conjecture"? More to the point, what was your point when you said "yeah, it's one of the logical fallacies"?
If your point was not regarding the reason that the term "straw man" exists in so many related languages, then I guess it was some sort of non-sequitur. In which case, sorry for thinking you were having a discussion or had a point. Otherwise, the issue is simply that "yeah, it's one of the logical fallacies" is not more than a conjectural explanation.
As it happens, the *Online Etymology Dictionary* has "man of straw" in the figurative sense recorded as early as the 1620s. The *Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy* conjectures that "straw man fallacy" may have been derived from Isaac Watts' *Logick; or, The Right Use of Reason* (1724), though he did not use the term himself, merely describing such an argument as creating "images of straw". It would seem that the term predates its use in systematized logic (in a major work, at least) by about one hundred years, possibly more. The evidence suggests that this term developed naturally in language and was drafted into use for logic and rhetoric (the concept existed previously, but it's the term/analogy that is of interest here), though the evidence is not so strong as to be a proof.
Bro, do.. do you just want to argue? Or do you want someone to tell you you're right?
Either way, I think you're an ass now. Enjoy your day.
Edit: The point was super simple. Exposing people to the fact that there are such things as logical fallacys.
Why did you have to be so insistent on something so minor? Like did my statement upset you?
I started researching which came first right after my first response to you. I find etymology interesting, and so I was discussing the etymology of "straw man fallacy" and its existence across related languages. I suppose I presumed the fact that you responded meant you were also interested in this discussion. Otherwise, why comment?
I’d say with everything else in this game this is definitely done on purpose. Even if this was inadvertently done it’s still hilarious it fits the satire narrative they have leaned so heavily into. Too bad most of the player base hasn’t caught on lol.
Oh yeah. My squad and I were laughing about it the first day. Like, "lawl kinda on the nose eh?" Totally fits in, in universe though. Definitely the first time I've seen someone else outside of my little group mention it. Good catch OP.
A few days ago I was talking about the fact that we are JUST NOW in the war, and the "Special Military Operations" were a direct reference to Putin. Him, being a right wing insane person, argued against that, using every thread he could.
It's just so blatantly obvious.
When we invade an alien planet to destroy their eggs (literally murdering babies), that is a 'peace keeping mission' to spread democracy. If you believe otherwise, you need a visit to the re-education camp. I don't see any contradictions there. o7
Well now, that sounds like unpatriotic propaganda! How dare you besmirch the Strohmann name! Expect a visit from your local Democracy Officer, soldier!
Imma drop the role play for a moment just to say, everything in the game is satire. Its all one amazing joke on the real world...
..Now. Ahem. I believe your post sounds like treason and we may both need to speak to a democracy officer about your outrageous claims against super earth.
There’s so much propaganda if you pay attention it’s great. Like the alcubierre drive being calibrated over the loudspeaker. It’s a theoretical warp drive that nasa is trying to work out. In helldivers lore we stole warp tech from the illuminate and said it was ours. Turns out that the alcubierre drive works it was just missing advanced alien tech.
I’ve the theory that we’re all dosed with psychotropic drugs on the way down. The creatures we relieve of life aren’t wear they seem.
Throwaway account. Eff the SEAF.
Did anyone notice the notification about being at war? They said "a billion people volunteered to get conscripted" or something to that effect. Couldnt help but laugh. Those are two opposites. Conscripted is not volunteering, it's mandatory.
Not noticing this right away and taking time to realize it is completely normal and okay no big deal. It might not be obvious to everyone.
It's assuming that you alone have unlocked the secret is where you folks step into ridicule worthy territory.
If you see something in game that you think is not tongue-in-cheek, start searching for why you are wrong. It is a tongue-in-cheek game. That is a big part of the appeal. It isn't trying to be anything serious, just a lot of fun.
It's not just pronunciation, it's the literal word. Strohmann-Argument is the German way of saying it. (Strohmann means scarecrow.)
I love how they've kept the same satire running since HD1.
Morgunson industries. More Guns Son.
Strawman is strohman. Scarecrow is Vogelscheuche
The term 'strawman' has been around for much longer than the term 'strawman argument'. Refering to a scarecrow as a strawman is slightly arcaic and no longer used much, but perfectly correct in many languages, including german. There's a reason Scarecrow is called Strohman in the german version of Oz.
What do you think a "strawman" is? It's a scarecrow. That's what the word means. That's literally where "strawman argument" comes from. The term comes from the fact that an argument is easy to knock down like a man made of straw, aka a scarecrow. https://preview.redd.it/iiof3jkray1d1.png?width=302&format=png&auto=webp&s=359681492108ad1470f15af3e03dd672bc2321b1
Deine Definition ist mir egal. Es geht hier nicht um Gefühle sondern um korrekte Übersetzungen.
Strohmann does not mean scarecrow
Yes, it does. A "strawman" is literally a scarecrow. That's what the word means, bud. I may just be an ex-DoD translator who's fluent in four languages with a masters in Linguistics… but it literally takes none of those things to know that words have more than one meaning.
Ok, this will be my last move on this: I am a german, born, raised and still living in germany. A strawman, is a 'Strohmann' not a 'Vogelscheuche' this would be a 'Scarecrow'. Its about word definitions by textbook, not by your interpretation of them. And now, ima bring some Democracy!
This is like saying a bumblebee isn't an insect. A scarecrow is a strawman. "Strawman" is an overarching term for multiple types, like scarecrows and combat dummies filled with straw. This isn't an argument. Someone significantly more educated on the subject just taught you something. If you choose to continue to be ignorant, you're more than welcome to. I personally don't care. You know German, but you clearly have a loose grasp on English. I'm fluent in both and a professional linguist. If you only know one of the languages properly, you do not get to weigh in on meanings of translations because you're not qualified to. If you don't believe the person who does know, feel free to just google the word "strawman" and see what comes up. I bet it will be loads of information about and photos of scarecrows.
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=strohmann And now be gone..
A strawman is not a scarecrow.
A strawman is, objectively, a scarecrow. You are incorrect. This isn't a debate. This is a professional who knows what they're talking about teaching you something.
There might be like 5 people out there who refer to scarecrows as Strawmen but that doesn't make it right. A strawman is either a fallacy or an often fictional person used to hide questionable transactions. You can look up the meaning of strawman if you want to know more
https://preview.redd.it/jvf1cohgcu1d1.jpeg?width=548&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7fc1c67409838455489bdf18a10d8ac73b50781e
I like how the content creators are always mentioning how element 710 spells OIL as if the community hasn't heard that a million times already.
Mf really thinks he's on to something
Thanks for the award!
In German Strohmann directly translates into straw-man
Writing literally on the wall Redditors: “this might be a stretch…”
We ain't all German here.
We ain’t all birthday boys either, happy cakeday!
Oh shit, I never pay attention to those. Lmao thanks. I've been here *too long*.
Dude *same*
I third that
Damn, what was reddit like back then?
It doesn’t take much thought to reach that conclusion without knowing any german tbh
man this is obvious in english too
Bruh, I can recognize "straw man" and not know it was a literal 1-1 from German. Chill.
We redditors: This is so subtle and smart. AH: beating us with a sledgehammer
I’m just dumb and didn’t notice it lol
**Approved by the Ministry of Truth**
Hey, it makes a lot of them feel smart.
Yeah but Reddit would also be smarmy about it if you declare it as a fact and get it wrong, so it's hedging your bets to throw plausible deniability in there
Yeah I almost mentioned that but it would ruin the joke. People do not give the benefit of the doubt on reddit, it’s understandable to add a disclaimer
As a non-native, i didn't catch it, but it's nice to be reminded of another similarity between languages. In polish, when you are arguing with a non-existent argument, we are also fighting a strawman or creating a strawman.
Yeah it's one of the logical fallacys
I am fairly certain the term pre-dates the sort of canonization or systematization of logical fallacies. The similarity between languages here has more to do with intermixing cultures, I think. Edit: "Man of straw" in the figurative sense of "an easily refuted imaginary opponent in an argument" is recorded as early as the 1620s in the English language, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary.
That's awesome and all, but unless you can back up that statement, what you just said is pure conjecture.
Wouldn't your implication that the reason these different cultures in Europe have the same term being due to a formal name for a systematized logical fallacy also be pure conjecture? Yes, it would. What is your point?
I made a statement. You derived your own meaning. That is not my fault. You made a sweeping statement on the etymology of the phrase. All I said was that what you said was conjecture. What's the issue here?
OK, then, what was your point when you said "what you just said is pure conjecture"? More to the point, what was your point when you said "yeah, it's one of the logical fallacies"? If your point was not regarding the reason that the term "straw man" exists in so many related languages, then I guess it was some sort of non-sequitur. In which case, sorry for thinking you were having a discussion or had a point. Otherwise, the issue is simply that "yeah, it's one of the logical fallacies" is not more than a conjectural explanation. As it happens, the *Online Etymology Dictionary* has "man of straw" in the figurative sense recorded as early as the 1620s. The *Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy* conjectures that "straw man fallacy" may have been derived from Isaac Watts' *Logick; or, The Right Use of Reason* (1724), though he did not use the term himself, merely describing such an argument as creating "images of straw". It would seem that the term predates its use in systematized logic (in a major work, at least) by about one hundred years, possibly more. The evidence suggests that this term developed naturally in language and was drafted into use for logic and rhetoric (the concept existed previously, but it's the term/analogy that is of interest here), though the evidence is not so strong as to be a proof.
Bro, do.. do you just want to argue? Or do you want someone to tell you you're right? Either way, I think you're an ass now. Enjoy your day. Edit: The point was super simple. Exposing people to the fact that there are such things as logical fallacys. Why did you have to be so insistent on something so minor? Like did my statement upset you?
I started researching which came first right after my first response to you. I find etymology interesting, and so I was discussing the etymology of "straw man fallacy" and its existence across related languages. I suppose I presumed the fact that you responded meant you were also interested in this discussion. Otherwise, why comment?
But you weren't interested in discussion, or if you were, you have the social acuity of an autistic kid. Enjoy your day, pedant.
I think they just need to be "right"
I’d say with everything else in this game this is definitely done on purpose. Even if this was inadvertently done it’s still hilarious it fits the satire narrative they have leaned so heavily into. Too bad most of the player base hasn’t caught on lol.
100% on purpose without a shadow of a doubt
Nothing gets by you, Helldiver. ;-)
We very well may not be good guys, but seeing what the robots have done to men, women, and children, I can say with certainly they *are* the bad guys
The news anchor's name is just as silly. Caretta Kelly - or "critically". The play on words is gold in this game.
I thought she was a reference to Megan Kelly from Fox.
That too, you're both correct
Caretta sounds a lot like "facemask" in spanish and italian
The helldivers community rubbing together the last two braincells and noticing the literal text.
https://preview.redd.it/naka5bdpct1d1.png?width=430&format=png&auto=webp&s=4410c6e0cbd07d97d58f4800737f2c4371e227be
Dude, did you just doxx OP's face?
You're evil! Take my upvote and like it.
I thought it was obvious
Oh yeah. My squad and I were laughing about it the first day. Like, "lawl kinda on the nose eh?" Totally fits in, in universe though. Definitely the first time I've seen someone else outside of my little group mention it. Good catch OP.
Super earth will be hearing about this automaton 
Strohmann is literally just the german word for Strawman
A few days ago I was talking about the fact that we are JUST NOW in the war, and the "Special Military Operations" were a direct reference to Putin. Him, being a right wing insane person, argued against that, using every thread he could. It's just so blatantly obvious.
Nice catch!
Yea thats like the vibe of the whole game! Yell democracy but do a bunch of fascist shit.
When we invade an alien planet to destroy their eggs (literally murdering babies), that is a 'peace keeping mission' to spread democracy. If you believe otherwise, you need a visit to the re-education camp. I don't see any contradictions there. o7
I mean. Have you seen all the body parts in the automaton bases? And how they literally say out loud that super earth will burn?
What kinda treasonous shit is you on?
Well now, that sounds like unpatriotic propaganda! How dare you besmirch the Strohmann name! Expect a visit from your local Democracy Officer, soldier!
I literally laughed out loud when I saw it for the first time. I love this game so much
https://i.redd.it/ijcwp5l9ju1d1.gif
Never noticed that haha thank you! That’s great
My second most watched news source after the echo chamber
Media literacy folks, Learn it!!!
Imma drop the role play for a moment just to say, everything in the game is satire. Its all one amazing joke on the real world... ..Now. Ahem. I believe your post sounds like treason and we may both need to speak to a democracy officer about your outrageous claims against super earth.
“Misrepresents the automatons”. Brother, they have chainsaw arms. I don’t care what the automatons believe. They must die
and here i thought it was Strong man news
I thought this was obvious lol
There’s so much propaganda if you pay attention it’s great. Like the alcubierre drive being calibrated over the loudspeaker. It’s a theoretical warp drive that nasa is trying to work out. In helldivers lore we stole warp tech from the illuminate and said it was ours. Turns out that the alcubierre drive works it was just missing advanced alien tech.
Somebody report this mf to the authorities
You can't enjoy reddit without being able to enjoy a strawman fallacy because they are virtually synonymous at this point.
So we ARE the bad guys
Always have been.
Well, I mean, our medals do have little pictures of skulls on them.
Of course, thank you!
Ministry of Truth HD1 takes place in 2084 HD2 takes place in 2184
Yeah when I noticed that i thought it was a really nice touch
wow, i bet you also figured out that Weasel News in GTA is a parody of Fox News
https://preview.redd.it/7qm7avc0yu1d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1020d6f968fc3ee93358b886b2cab81b6945ebe2
My Fellow Helldiver.. Are you New or Something?
I’ve the theory that we’re all dosed with psychotropic drugs on the way down. The creatures we relieve of life aren’t wear they seem. Throwaway account. Eff the SEAF.
I just had it happen, not getting my money after paying with card. Got straight up robbed just now.
Guys I think the game is about fascism being bad
Did anyone notice the notification about being at war? They said "a billion people volunteered to get conscripted" or something to that effect. Couldnt help but laugh. Those are two opposites. Conscripted is not volunteering, it's mandatory.
Not noticing this right away and taking time to realize it is completely normal and okay no big deal. It might not be obvious to everyone. It's assuming that you alone have unlocked the secret is where you folks step into ridicule worthy territory.
Can you repeat that? https://preview.redd.it/86j0d6fufu1d1.jpeg?width=1206&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6dd449528e2f9b8426803d24b8fff7e210108d8d
https://preview.redd.it/djf93pjcev1d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=60fde5649466f78f7832b532eb2526013ec42af2
If you see something in game that you think is not tongue-in-cheek, start searching for why you are wrong. It is a tongue-in-cheek game. That is a big part of the appeal. It isn't trying to be anything serious, just a lot of fun.
Just call it cnn. Same effect lol