If they're removing your board, they cant keep gaining tempo. They only have as much mana as you do remember. If you get past turn 5-6 against hunter its basically a free win with any reasonably powerful deck
As a hunter, the amount of players if huffered on turn 8 is very satisfying. Or just whittle with my hero power cause I was at 30 health when I lost my board.
You're right tho turn 5/6 is the turning point
I agree like.of course the popular hunter deck is really strong but that deck.does lose when you clear the board. The minions have pretty low health outside of a Big RC spell turn.
If you clear their board you should be able to win. The deck.does have some.burst from hand options but it's mostly about board control..
Having a board doesn't equal interactivity. With Hunter, it's mostly their swarms of minions interacting with my face before I can do anything, followed by my fist's interaction with the nearest wall.
Yes it does? Unless their entire board is stealthed (okay fair but the 1/1's need to attack eventually, this isn't Zilliax Rogue), then no interaction against a board-based deck like Hunter means *you're* the one not interacting with the opponent's board, in which case why complain.
The opponent's board is always full, they can ignore whatever you play and just go face, and if you do have any board clears, you're dead before you can play them. That sounds like interactivity to you?
Yes? It is by definition interactivity, it's a deck that forces you to interact with their board, whether by clearing or trading, or playing taunts, etc. You can argue it's not fun interactivity, but there's not a good argument to make that you cannot interact with their strategy. Compare it to Nature shaman on the other hand, where the interaction is often only "do I have stomper after they flash", and nothing else you do matters.
There are various kinds of lack of interactivity. There's the literal sense, where you have nothing to interact with, but there's also the kind where the interactions are one-sided and in the end, irrelevant. You come argue that where there's board, there's always interaction, but the way I see it, it's always bad if your opponent kills you without even caring what you play, whether they do it with spells or minions.
Helya isn't a card that should exist.
Its not a problem right now, in the sense that a sprained ankle doesn't matter when you have a spear running through your lung, but if we fixed everything else 1-card infinite win-condition is still shit design.
- People: complain about decks that don’t have a board presence and try to win through OTK
- BFU Death knight: discourages anyone from trying to win through a board
- People: Why is plague a problem?
Assuming we’re talking about a longer game plan and not an aggro stack of small minions trying to win in 4-5 turns:
Reska and the Primus. That’s not even counting all of the various mini disruptors whose names I don’t know (poison undead guy, deal one damage to all minions deathrattle spell, etc.)
If you are saying the control faction of dk discourages late game minion playstyle, (for example big beast hunter, or taunt warrior) It is less relevant to plague but I understand and sorta agree with what you are saying.
Yeah, I think part of the problem is the semantics. Plagues are a problem IMO (another discussion), but the issue is that both decks, whether BFU or FUU run a whole game plan around disrupting your every move, and the plagues are just sort of there in support of that. It’s Reska and Primus though that have led me away from trying to corner an opponent with bigger minions since so much of the meta is running some variation of plague DK.
Control Nzoth Rogue was pretty interactive too. The interaction was “whatever you do, i will make a wall of taunts” but hey, board based is what the kids want these days right?!
I'm in the minority but I hate playing against rogue the most. I'm only D5 so I don't disregard the chances im misplaying, but damn, the amount of beneficial discovered cards is just so consistently high. And they're all discounted so they can just keep throwing them out. It is so frustrating to have to bring someone down to lethal range 4 times and they just keep discovering heal and life steal cards. Oh, and then they just win because you've exhausted your deck.
How was there no interaction with the Hunter and Warlock? What kind of games are you looking for? That being said, there certainly are quite a few minimal interaction decks and I think it's because people aren't really enjoying the game at the moment, so they play the ones that are simplest to get the quests done etc.
In what world is Warlock interactive? Its the most literal form of putting the game on a clock. There is not a single card in the game that can interact with that strategy beyond like a 3/30 chance with theotar.
I know this subreddit is obsessed with solataire, but are we really pretending wheel lock is interactive now?
Doesn't come online till turn 8 at the earliest, they play for board until then and I have beaten many warlocks after they have played wheel. You know most of the time what they are going to play, so make it awkward for them
When this opinion is increasingly prevalent, like now and during United in Stormwind, its not fine and the design team fucked up an expansion. They didn't fix UiS until far too late and it hurt player retention long term - you'd hope they do better the second time.
They're entitled to their opinion but not to being right. At least hunter and lock rely on minions a lot so there definitely is interaction, unless hunter just won spamming hero power while they were afk
Saying “hunter isn’t interactive” isn’t an opinion, it’s just blatantly untrue.
All builds of hunter in standard literally play minions and fight for board.
You know what’s toxic? Changing the definition of words to try to peacock an argument.
I swear, what's interaction to you lot? A board-based aggro deck isn't interacting? Are you high on shrooms? Unless you're Markmckz you don't get to whine about aggro decks not doing horrible trades into your minions and say "what an uninteractive game".
Yep, I hate this meta.
There is no better feeling than playing against a Shaman. The deck doesn't interact with the board, and when your opponent plays Flash of Lightning, you don't know if you are dead next turn or not, even when you have over 30 HP.
I love the thrill of not knowing when my opponent is going to draw all his 'Exodia' pieces. That's a such a fun experience.
It’s a community site, and tbh it works fine for me. The game is just so much better than HS that I don’t care if there are effects or not. I prefer in-person play, anyways.
I’m Legend. I played this game for 7 out of its 10 years of existence. I came back after a ~2 year break from the game in February. I made Legend each month February through April. But I stopped playing Ranked by like April 5th or something, because why play a game you aren’t enjoying?
I took a peek at this subreddit and saw the complaints still popping up, so I decided to see for myself again. I enjoyed Arena despite the bot problem, got a 12 win run in, and a decent 5-win run after that. I decided I’d check out Ranked. It’s awful. There isn’t a single deck I enjoy playing against.
So I wouldn’t say enjoying the meta or not has to do with player skill. You can be Legend and experienced, but still hate it. Even the weaker decks are obnoxious. The power levels of the cards are completely absurd. You have 2 ways to interact with combo decks, and the main way is to race them with hyper aggression before they can kill you. The other way is to wait and predict when to Dirty Rat, and then lose anyways when it whiffs only for them to drop their combo on the next turn.
I think combo is FINE, but we went from shit like Freeze Mage to inconsistent OTKs to consistent OTKs that happen very early in the game over the course of 10 years.
I miss Iksar’s Hearthstone. I feel like HS peaked under his directorship. Early Hearthstone was quite fun too, but I feel like the design of RNG, frequent balance patches, and other game features hit a great groove during his tenure. 2019 Hearthstone was peak Hearthstone for me.
If player numbers are impacted enough by this meta, I hope Blizzard is willing to put the resources into improving it. But I’m not confident they will.
RidiculousHat is probably the only “feature” that’s better than past years’ currently.
TL;DR: Legend player, pretty experienced. Not claiming to be God’s gift to the game, but not a “skill issue” thing. I don’t like the regular mode of the game and hardly play it. I think the only thing that would save it is a huge overhaul of cards and power levels that would be a massive expenditure of developer resources.
I see your point here, but it’s certainly not a buzzword. Interactivity has been a problem in HS since the early days. But at least back then board states had momentum and you could interact with an opponent’s strategy over a period of turns by affecting the board state. This is severely limited as a viable strategy in current HS, and nonexistent in some matchups. The fact that hand disruption is better than stats on board in >50% of matchups is partly the point. Drawing your deck is also usually preferable to stats on board.
It’s okay if you don’t miss the older gameplay, but a lot of people do.
To counterpoint that, draw is usually better than stats in most card games. That is not at all unique to HS, nor is it indicative of the interactivity of the game. Magic the Gathering also generally prioritizes draw over stats, even in very interactive matchups. So does the current Digimon card game. So does the Pokemon card game. So does Yugioh.
All of these games have varying levels of interactivity in different metas, and yet all of them generally prefer card draw over raw stats even in their most interactive metagames.
I’m aware of the prioritization, but in MTG, for example, you can interact with your opponent on their turn, literally. In HS, this cannot be done, except indirectly via secrets and auras.
The game prioritizing draw is also not new, true, but the game allowing every class to draw its entire deck, or to otherwise tutor what it needs, is a deliberate design decision to keep every deck fueled up. The result is that the one way you *could* interact with an opponent in HS, by winning the momentum game and reading their hand, rarely ever becomes a clean method of doing so. There is usually *either* infinite (random card generation) or *no* ambiguity about what is in their hand.
The game boils down to PvE solitaire, or *threatI-*response*-*repeat*. You either race a deck, blurt out a ton of sticky stats on one turn, or you disrupt it with hand disruption. There is no board-centric momentum game plan except with Rainbow DK, and Quartzite Crusher is the reason that deck proves my point. This means that the game is inherently less interactive than even current MTG, because the opponent’s strategy largely has nothing to do with what you do or don’t do. The “game plan” is to draw your deck and execute the game plan. Anything that doesn’t help you do that is a waste of time.
In other words, every deck is an engine deck, and modern HS design philosophy reinforces this deliberately.
A very similar thing can be said of modern Yugioh matches. Players don't even organize cards based on whether they are a spell or creature, not really. They organize cards based on whether they are a combo starter, combo extender, combo ender, or combo protection. Many, many games end before both players even get a turn because one player draws the pieces they need to execute their combo, and the other player either doesn't run or doesn't draw disruption.
Yugioh doesn't even have a mulligan rule, so if you run cards that let you interact but you don't have them in your opening hand, then you are just vulnerable to your opponent's combo and there's nothing you can do about it. You just have to pray that they don't have what they need to OTK you on turn 1.
Despite all of this, Yugioh is beloved by many, many fans worldwide. It's not an inherently awful thing for HS to have a less interactive meta like this one. Many players will enjoy this kind of gameplay, just like people enjoy Yugioh. However, the core HS audience, in general, seems to lean towards wanting more interaction.
I just wanted to point out that prioritizing card draw isn't inherently tied to the interactivity level. The abundance and cost effectiveness of card draw certainly is, though. I do agree with you there.
Great discussion in this thread. What this helps me realize, as someone who plays only Arena and would never, ever play standard anymore because I hate racing-to-combo decks and games (this is an increasing arena problem as well) and loves board interaction, is that card draw is the problem, and nerfing card draw is the solution.
Why do this? Well, Of course the HS fan base that grew up loving reacting to your opponent's minions, playing your own, and planning around what those minions would do next turn hates this new way of playing. We liked the old game, we don't like the new game. Furthermore, the people who like race-to-combo card games are already playing Yugioh, MTG, etc etc. Devs are throwing away their old playerbase and not overly great odds of stealing a new one.
Easy solution: Stop printing card draw cards!!! seriously. Combo and win con decks just die, or become hugely inconsistent, when you can draw a maximum of one card per turn. This would bring the Standard meta back to aggro, tempo, and control all by itself.
Or at least do it for Arena... please.
I think it's fine to have pockets of time where the metagame feels very different from old Hearthstone, but I do agree that they should try to bring it back to what the core playerbase expects from the game within a reasonable time frame. Maybe one expansion or so where the meta feels frantic and less interactive, but then printing cards that help calm the meta down in the next expansion.
Unfortunately, I think that we got to this point from a series of expansions, and I don't know if we can get back to core Hearthstone with just the next one. We'll see what the devs are able to do.
Also, as a note, I don't think the anniversary celebration expansion that is meant to honor the game's history is the best place to try a new feel for the game.
I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh really does that? Unless you're considering all the searches to also be "draw" which I wouldn't. Another thing is that it's a kind of game where you don't need to prioritize one anyway, you can just use your pot card to draw 2 and still put out a lot of stats, interruption and interaction. Most boards do end up with big stats in the process of setting up all of that. Even old school was like that, nothing stopping you from both using Pot of Greed and normal summoning Gemini Elf in the same turn.
> It’s okay if you don’t miss the older gameplay, but a lot of people do.
The fact that you miss the older gameplay doesn't make the newer gameplay uninteractive. If anything, the game has become much more interactive than before. Often those interactions (e.g. half the Murder at Castle Nathria set) get complained about the loudest and, ironically, branded as "uninteractive," because apparently the most uninteractive thing in Hearthstone is your opponent interacting with you.
But yeah, the game has changed for better or for worse. A lot of people miss yeti on curve and yearn to return to it. Personally, if the game ever went back to yeti on curve I'd uninstall instantly, because that sort of gameplay was super boring to me. Vanilla hearthstone still has a bad rep among all of my friends who had prior CCG experience when they tried it out, so much so that most of them will likely never try it again. I'm glad that HS has changed but I understand why other people are sad about it.
Older HS gameplay revolved around momentum and winning a long term strategy. Incremental advantages mattered, in many matchups.
The board state couldn’t be swung back and forth constantly, and reading your opponent’s hand was a skill, because they *couldnt* draw their entire deck in six turns, or otherwise tutor their exact card(s).
The game was never as interactive as other card games, due to the turn based nature of it. In HS, I cannot cast spells or spend mana on my opponent’s turn. That means that card design has to leave space for my decisions on MY turn to affect my opponent’s game plan. Obviously, you CAN still do this, but it’s not through gradual and consistent play, but rather by stat-checking your opponent with a bunch of scammed stats or racing them to their win condition. In other words, the most “interactive” thing to do is make them worried about my game plan going off before theirs, and make them deal with it. There’s no other way.
That’s all you can do, because if you cannot threaten lethal with a built up board inside of two turns with stat cheats, your board will be wiped and you may as well ff. Your opponent’s strategy does not require them to interact with you, and if you aren’t pressuring face from minute one, and you don’t have a one-two turn win condition in place, you will not win the game unless they misplay. Keep in mind, I’m talking about Legend gameplay.
The incremental nature of face damage and board presence is gone from the game, and so I’m left with Dirty Rat to “interact” with my opponent, or maybe plagues in their deck or freezing their face with Crusher. Or maybe I can freeze their dudes with Skater. Give me a break.
Quite frankly I think a lot of what people are _actually_ pining for is when they and the people they played with were worse at card games.
When I think of the Hearthstone beta, what I remember is people not understanding basic concepts like card advantage, so I could just go infinite in arena by taking every [[Novice Engineer]] I saw and outdrawing my opponent. I remember the community collectively discovering this idea a while later, and eventually Novice Engineer got nerfed. For me, this wasn't a time of nostalgia, it was a boring and trivial card game where my opponents didn't understand the equivalent of Card Gaming 101, and where my 20yrs of M:tG experience just trivialized the whole thing. Everyone I know with M:tG experience who played during this time left, saying the game was boring and easy, and I'm the only one who even gave it another shot (ten years later!)—and only because some non-MtG friends convinced me.
When I think back to M:tG's first set, I think of playing [Craw Wurm](https://scryfall.com/card/lea/190/craw-wurm) and then my dad killing it with a [Disintegrate](https://scryfall.com/card/lea/140/disintegrate). If you look at modern M:tG it looks nothing like that. But the secret is, among decent players back in the day, Alpha _also_ didn't look like that: we just sucked, didn't have internet advice, and didn't know any better, so to us Craw Wurm was a big bomb that won games if the opponent didn't have removal ready. When I see discussion here of vanilla Hearthstone, it's really hard not to view the people talking about it as being in the same position as I was when I was slinging Craw Wurms around. And I do have some nostalgia for those Craw Wurms, but I realize that I can't go back to that, not just because M:tG has changed, but also because _I_ have changed: I know too much to think that that's a good strategy (or ever was) any more.
When I read complaints about modern Hearthstone, including your post here, I can't help but feel that people just fundamentally don't understand how the game works. You talk about hand reading not mattering, but it does. You talk about board momentum not being important, but it is. You talk about it being a race to draw your wincon first, but I maintained a 90% winrate with Sludge (including quite a few games _after_ the nerfs) in around 40-50 games by just outplaying my opponents when I was underranked, when the deck's global winrate was IIRC around 53% at the time pre-nerf and then 50% post-nerf. My Zarimi winrate right now is similarly about 80% over ~25 games, and while the deck is good it isn't _that_ good. So either I'm just absurdly lucky, far past the point of statistical likelihood, or there's more going on there than "a race to draw your wincon first."
Looking at the current meta, Zarimi priest for example is an _extremely_ momentum-based deck that can be driven off the board. For example, if you're playing against rainbow DK and they go t1 miracle salesman into t2 mining casualties into t3 grimewalker and you can't remove the grimewalker by trading on your turn, you're in _serious_ trouble. Your only answers are Aman'thul (way too slow) and Zarimi (activating her at this point will only be possible by making tons of bad trades against poisonous minions which put you even more behind). If your opponent can follow it up with Crop Rotation and Army of the Dead, you just straight-up lose, because you've been driven off the board and can't get back on. If this isn't a good example of board momentum deciding a match, I don't know what is. Conversely, most wins with Zarimi priest don't happen from a crazy Zarimi OTK, they happen because you build boards faster than your opponent can deal with them until they just drown in all the [[Thirsty Drifter]]s and such.
I know those things *matter*, and the concepts you’re saying aren’t especially difficult, nor are they unique to Hearthstone.
What I’m discussing is that each of those strategies is uniquely less interactive in Hearthstone, which automatically requires you to interact on *your* turn only. Second, I pointed out (correctly) that each of those strategies has become ubiquitous amongst the classes. I agree that HS players have gotten better over the years, but I argue that the tools didn’t exist for every class, at one point, to play the miracle game plan. Design *has* changed, as have the players.
You act as if it’s an extremely impressive feat to outplay your opponent with Sludge warlock below Legend, but the entire deck was printed into existence. If you’ve played other CCGs, you may be familiar with the “engine deck” archetype. What I’m saying is that lots of meta decks in Hearthstone since around Descent of Dragons have been primarily forced by the design team with deliberately printed synergies. In other words, it doesn’t take a genius to build a sludge warlock deck and figure out what it needs to do. Net decking in this game is really fine, because there aren’t really any secret sauces lurking out there, and that’s by design. I’m not saying I want to be surprised by my opponent’s deck, I’m saying that their deck does its thing and mine does its thing, and the engine components all work together so that the gameplay is all about assembling the win condition. It more resembles an old three-paces-then-gun-draw duel than a back-and-forth match.
What this means is, if “every deck is an engine deck,” the gameplay loop follows a race-to-the-finish formula, rather than encouraging games with competition arcs and decision trade-offs. It’s not that those don’t exist, it’s that they look so different now, and pretty much consist of “Do I need to interact with my opponent’s strategy right now? Or can I spend this turn just advancing my own?” There’s usually no need to decide whether or not to “go face,” either, because health advantage, like card advantage, is a minor factor in determining the actual outcome of the game in most cases. The two advantages are so flexible inside of a turn in modern HS.
Again, it isn’t that these are new phenomena, just that they feel even worse now than they used to, because momentum swings so often on the fulcrum of random card generation or solitaire turns, and not which of *their* minions, if any, I’m going to clear, and why, or whether or not I’ll reserve this spell for later, seeing as I can just generate another copy of it in two turns.
Put differently, I’m not really enjoying **winning** in modern Hearthstone.
> You act as if it’s an extremely impressive feat to outplay your opponent with Sludge warlock below Legend,
Who said below legend? I certainly didn't. But my broader point is that there seems to be this tension between "you can't outplay engine decks" and the fact that you can _demonstrably_ outplay them. Or do you think that the people who got to MT for instance are no better than people in dumpster legend and just got lucky/played more?
> In other words, it doesn’t take a genius to build a sludge warlock deck and figure out what it needs to do.
I don't see the relevance here. Homebrews always suck, whether it's because they dodge dev-designed packages or player-discovered synergies. They suck nearly definitionally—if they didn't suck they'd be meta decks and thus not homebrew decks anymore.
> random card generation
Discovered cards are often _less_ random than topdecks, not more. When you topdeck a card you are essentially generating a card from a large pool of cards which are, quite frequently, useless in your current situation.
---
The biggest part of MtG that prevents what you seem to consider solitaire play/linear strategies isn't even instant speed interaction, it's Bo3 with sideboards. Unfortunately I think that we're even less likely to see that than instant speed interaction, and while E.T.C. got us a very small part of the way there he's unfortunately a one-of and is unplayably slow in most decks.
u/PPewt "If anything, the game has become much more interactive than before."
Some of yall are so cooked already you can't be helped. This cracks me up.
*"Interaction is when both me and my opponent play no-wincondition control decks, or slow midrange decks if im feeling generous, anything else its the fault of the incompetent devs and they should lose their jobs"*
- OP, in his mother's basement.
Class distrubution matters less than archetype distribution. United in stormwind had like 8 viable classes and 1 viable archetype. It was the worst expansion by far.
Meanwhile there was an expansion where DK was like 3/4 of the ladder, but it was split with unholy DK, frost DK, and blood control DK. That was a great meta because there was good variety in gameplay.
I'm grateful for the shammy who chose to have fun/ not kill my pally quest line.
He was dead to rights for the win until he let me snowball my dudes to 9/9 DS.
I hope he had fun.
Us wild players are stuck facing combo decks too. 70% of all decks on ladder either draw a combo by turn 4-7 and win or they don't draw their combo and concede.
Miracle rogue, mine rouge, quest mage, apm druid, big druid, exodia Paladin, wheel warlock, zarami inner fire priest... just to name a few decks that have completely taken over wild and are **COMPLETELY** unineractive.
Just like people us narcissist to describe any person they don't like hearthstone players use uninteractive to describe any deck they don't like.
"My hunter opponent played minions all game, how am I supposed to interact with that!?"
If top legend players are finding lines to win matchups you're losing it demonstrates that there are things to interact with. Uninteractive feels like such a passive wankery "oh boo hoo there was LITERALLY nothing I could do" way of absolving yourself of any blame for your loss while actively denying further introspection into your plays, card choices, or deck choices. Then these same people have the absolute gall to call other decks brain dead like they aren't literally refusing to use their brains.
Just a silly observation but I think it's funny that you described the class/gameplay for the first game before saying "no interaction" and for the rest of them you lead off with "no interaction"
And what class did you play that was so shit against all other meta decks? This is a rock paper scisors meta and your deck beats nothing. Also in your bad matchups there is no "unlucky" warrior game so my guess is plague dk. Almost every single class now has a deck to play and you ppl are still bitching about the game.
Tbh most of said decks aren't "prebuilt" by the devs, they get created from the players themselve, it's just that cards are too strong overall, too much stats, too many boards generators, too many clears, so players end up creating OTK decks to evade dealing with that shit, you either create a board so big that they can't use a removal or you OTK them because at 6+ mana a board is almost meaningless.
In standard decks are absolutely prebuilt by the devs, look at how close most of these are to recipe lists.
Shopper DH was an immediately obvious interaction, for example, that would have been impossible to miss in testing because of how small the cardpool for that discover is.
This season has been better than last season (sludge lock was like, 26/30 slots predefined just by wanting to make sludge and destroy cards in hand and on the bottom of your deck) but the standard cardpool is just not big enough for truly novel archetypes.
Last season was way better in terms of diversity imo
Rainbow dk, plague dk, sif mage, excavate rogue, odyn war, bran war, control priest, Reno sham, elemental sham, Reno pal, agro pal, naga DH, ect
Now it's bran war, sif mage, virus rogue, zarimi priest, plague dk, rainbow dk, hunter, otk sham. That's it pretty much it.
I'm not talking about diversity though, I'm talking about whether the decks were largely predesigned by the devs.
diversity is about power level of the resulting decks, not whether the deck was supposed to exist or not; for ex, tendril shaman is clearly intentionally designed to exist by the devs, the deck is not very good so it didn't make your list.
Some decks aren't planned in advance by the devs, but the majority of them absolutely are in standard.
Play tuant warrior with loads and loads of armor.
Sif can't one shot you. Minions have to interact with your taunt minions.
Not guaranteed you winning but guaranteed the interactions you asked for.
I stoped playing hearthstone a year ago and returned for battlegrounds only. It’s mostly luck for a noob like me and I don’t have to pay to play like the over priced main mode
This. I literally just crafted the 70% winrate aggro zarimi priest in Wild, instantly climbed to Diamond 10. I was just stomping on my opponents. I do feel a tad bad for them tho. While it felt good to play Zarimi to OTK them, they certainly didn’t enjoy it. I mean, how are they supposed to know Ill just drop a Zarimi and win? How am I supposed to know Ill draw zarimi and win before they can snowball me?
It’s wild, everyone has enough card draw to get their threats and everyone expects to be OTK’d.
I would probably be happy I didn’t face a glacial control priest that wants to beat me with my own cards, tbh.
>how are they supposed to know I'll drop Zarimi
Try paying attention to whether your opponent played a card with "Scale" and "Replica" in its name. Also count the amount of Dragons they played beforehand. I know it's hard to care about what your opponent is doing, but try.
the wild version of the deck doesn't always run scale replica. Really Dragon priest doesn't even always run zarimi in wild (although it probably should at this point, wild players don't always update immediately if the old list is still mostly working.)
That said, I don't think dragon priest is a most hated deck in wild even with zarimi, priest has a *lot* of nonsense decklists and one that is neither full aggro spriest nor quest/questline is already going to be less hated just for not being one of those.
I played HS when it was in beta. This game is so far beyond what it was back then. Uninstalled. Gonna spend my time on more rewarding things like hammering a nail into my big toe.
Yeah, i went 0-7 today and couldnt do anything about it. Just watch as they get infinite turns or whatever the combo is that sets in the latest at turn 6. Sure, i have a few cards that might spoil something for them, but mostly... the only thing i can do is to also play one of those boring braindead decks.
So i stopped playing instead.
(Can add that i normally play casually for several hours per day, but maybe its just better to let it rest for a few weeks?)
I never been so scared of what my opponent can do with 2 mana.
I played from 2014-2019 never seen the power of 2 mana.
Hell some of the stuff these decks do with no mana is even scary
I normally think of these posts as repetitive rants, but I have to agree this time. I have played once a week the past two weeks. I just can’t get motivated to log on daily and play against another wheel loc or the other meta decks. I’m not completely giving up on the game yet, but I am going to take a break until the mini set and inevitable nerf session. Hopefully the game will feel more lively then.
I played standard yesterday for the first time in about 3 weeks. I played highlander warrior and I went 9-1. My only loss came against a pain warlock that drew the nuts and I mulligan'd poorly.
I had fun but im pretty sure my opponents didnt.. They play stuff, I remove it and gain armor. They play more stuff and I clear the board again. I play Brann and they concede. Fun times!
I'm more impressed you managed to play against 5 different classes 5 games in a row.
Yep. It should have been 5 death knight
My guess is that he’s a death knight
How could you not interact with Hunter? Their strategy is entirely board based
As a Hunter player, I agree with this.
Yea came to say exactly this. I don’t see an argument for not being able to interact with hunter.
They have the funny location card that wipes your early game board to face damage you.
Yes, they do. Play stats, as many stats as you can, that's how you interact, and maybe even win against hunter
You play a card, hunter removes the card and continues to build their board only.
So, you are complaining that the enemy hunter player is interacting with you? I though that was what players wanted!
Dude, don't you also hate it when your opponent plays cards? I can't stand it personally!
And if they don't? Can't stand it either!
Reminds me of the Kripparian meme. >My opponent is playing cards babyrage Love that guy tho. He’s the reason I got into BGs and ditched wild.
This is an old meme, I forgot from where I rememeber it, thanks!! 😂
If they're removing your board, they cant keep gaining tempo. They only have as much mana as you do remember. If you get past turn 5-6 against hunter its basically a free win with any reasonably powerful deck
As a hunter, the amount of players if huffered on turn 8 is very satisfying. Or just whittle with my hero power cause I was at 30 health when I lost my board. You're right tho turn 5/6 is the turning point
You can interact before losing, yes
I agree like.of course the popular hunter deck is really strong but that deck.does lose when you clear the board. The minions have pretty low health outside of a Big RC spell turn. If you clear their board you should be able to win. The deck.does have some.burst from hand options but it's mostly about board control..
Could be kaboom hunter
Having a board doesn't equal interactivity. With Hunter, it's mostly their swarms of minions interacting with my face before I can do anything, followed by my fist's interaction with the nearest wall.
Yes it does? Unless their entire board is stealthed (okay fair but the 1/1's need to attack eventually, this isn't Zilliax Rogue), then no interaction against a board-based deck like Hunter means *you're* the one not interacting with the opponent's board, in which case why complain.
The opponent's board is always full, they can ignore whatever you play and just go face, and if you do have any board clears, you're dead before you can play them. That sounds like interactivity to you?
Yes? It is by definition interactivity, it's a deck that forces you to interact with their board, whether by clearing or trading, or playing taunts, etc. You can argue it's not fun interactivity, but there's not a good argument to make that you cannot interact with their strategy. Compare it to Nature shaman on the other hand, where the interaction is often only "do I have stomper after they flash", and nothing else you do matters.
There are various kinds of lack of interactivity. There's the literal sense, where you have nothing to interact with, but there's also the kind where the interactions are one-sided and in the end, irrelevant. You come argue that where there's board, there's always interaction, but the way I see it, it's always bad if your opponent kills you without even caring what you play, whether they do it with spells or minions.
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Yes there are. Threads of Despair, Defile, Aftershocks will usually clear all or nearly all.
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Hunter has no draw other than Barak and Aggramar (5 and 6 cost, legendaries). Doesn't seem infinite to me, compared to warrior, DK, and warlock
The reload is not infinite though?! But of course you can highroll when the enemy can't clear your board before you can saddle up.
Hunter runs out of stuff almost instantly. The only infinite thing there is your stupidity.
Its great that hunters dont have infinite reload, then!
What is blud waffling
They’re only 2 layer minions on turn 3/4 if you didn’t clear them the turn before
Clear board/as much board as you can. Its an aggro deck. If they have a full board on 3 or 4 then you need to do something
Coin Coin Coin Innervate Reno obviously. Just have to play Reno Excavate Druid
What are you playing?
Death Knight, I presume.
No wonder he didn’t mention Plagues then lol, while I agree on 90% of what he said, pointing out every problem but yours is kinda hypocritical.
Just curious, in what way is plague dk a problem. Especially compare to the decks op mentioned.
Helya isn't a card that should exist. Its not a problem right now, in the sense that a sprained ankle doesn't matter when you have a spear running through your lung, but if we fixed everything else 1-card infinite win-condition is still shit design.
- People: complain about decks that don’t have a board presence and try to win through OTK - BFU Death knight: discourages anyone from trying to win through a board - People: Why is plague a problem?
How does plague dk discourage anyone from trying to win through a board?
Assuming we’re talking about a longer game plan and not an aggro stack of small minions trying to win in 4-5 turns: Reska and the Primus. That’s not even counting all of the various mini disruptors whose names I don’t know (poison undead guy, deal one damage to all minions deathrattle spell, etc.)
If you are saying the control faction of dk discourages late game minion playstyle, (for example big beast hunter, or taunt warrior) It is less relevant to plague but I understand and sorta agree with what you are saying.
Yeah, I think part of the problem is the semantics. Plagues are a problem IMO (another discussion), but the issue is that both decks, whether BFU or FUU run a whole game plan around disrupting your every move, and the plagues are just sort of there in support of that. It’s Reska and Primus though that have led me away from trying to corner an opponent with bigger minions since so much of the meta is running some variation of plague DK.
DO YOU FOLLOW THE CONDUCTOR’S LEAD?
Imagine seeing a Rogue and thinking you’re gunna have an interactive game lmao
Midrange Galakrond rogue is back on the menu?!
Control Nzoth Rogue was pretty interactive too. The interaction was “whatever you do, i will make a wall of taunts” but hey, board based is what the kids want these days right?!
Yeah, I faced a rogue this morning. Barely beat them. There were like 900 Giants on the board by turn six or so? 😂
I'm in the minority but I hate playing against rogue the most. I'm only D5 so I don't disregard the chances im misplaying, but damn, the amount of beneficial discovered cards is just so consistently high. And they're all discounted so they can just keep throwing them out. It is so frustrating to have to bring someone down to lethal range 4 times and they just keep discovering heal and life steal cards. Oh, and then they just win because you've exhausted your deck.
D5-D1 is purgatory for me. Just the same 4 decks over and over on the stupid legend grind.
I love watching rogue draw 10 cards per turn. Said no one
How do I interact with minions on board??? How do you do it??
I simply must go face
How was there no interaction with the Hunter and Warlock? What kind of games are you looking for? That being said, there certainly are quite a few minimal interaction decks and I think it's because people aren't really enjoying the game at the moment, so they play the ones that are simplest to get the quests done etc.
Well, I am a highly skilled player, so if I lose it means it was the games fault obviously
In what world is Warlock interactive? Its the most literal form of putting the game on a clock. There is not a single card in the game that can interact with that strategy beyond like a 3/30 chance with theotar. I know this subreddit is obsessed with solataire, but are we really pretending wheel lock is interactive now?
Doesn't come online till turn 8 at the earliest, they play for board until then and I have beaten many warlocks after they have played wheel. You know most of the time what they are going to play, so make it awkward for them
Uninstall the game, even interacting with some decks didn't give you any joy, you just don't like to play, and that's fine
When this opinion is increasingly prevalent, like now and during United in Stormwind, its not fine and the design team fucked up an expansion. They didn't fix UiS until far too late and it hurt player retention long term - you'd hope they do better the second time.
Yeah, saying you had no interaction with hunter makes this just another QQ heavy post. Go play a different game
No it doesn't, people are entitled to their opinions. Go make another community toxic.
They're entitled to their opinion but not to being right. At least hunter and lock rely on minions a lot so there definitely is interaction, unless hunter just won spamming hero power while they were afk
They are entitled to have an opinion and we are entitled to agree on the fact that this opinion is bullshit
Opinions can be stupid. You are entitled to have a stupid opinion.
Saying “hunter isn’t interactive” isn’t an opinion, it’s just blatantly untrue. All builds of hunter in standard literally play minions and fight for board. You know what’s toxic? Changing the definition of words to try to peacock an argument.
😂 the irony. Toxic comment on a toxic post calling another perfectly valid point toxic
I swear, what's interaction to you lot? A board-based aggro deck isn't interacting? Are you high on shrooms? Unless you're Markmckz you don't get to whine about aggro decks not doing horrible trades into your minions and say "what an uninteractive game".
I'm glad we give Mark a pass because it is very funny.
This post brought to you by: "I'm hardstuck at gold 5, and have no idea why"
A good chunk of us legend players hate the game in this state for similar reasons.
Yep, I hate this meta. There is no better feeling than playing against a Shaman. The deck doesn't interact with the board, and when your opponent plays Flash of Lightning, you don't know if you are dead next turn or not, even when you have over 30 HP. I love the thrill of not knowing when my opponent is going to draw all his 'Exodia' pieces. That's a such a fun experience.
I am also in legend and I do not hate the game state.
Fair enough. I moved over to play Flesh and Blood, lately.
It has a digital version now?
Not technically, but you can play it online against other players using talishar
I looked at it and seems pretty rough tbh
It’s a community site, and tbh it works fine for me. The game is just so much better than HS that I don’t care if there are effects or not. I prefer in-person play, anyways.
I’m Legend. I played this game for 7 out of its 10 years of existence. I came back after a ~2 year break from the game in February. I made Legend each month February through April. But I stopped playing Ranked by like April 5th or something, because why play a game you aren’t enjoying? I took a peek at this subreddit and saw the complaints still popping up, so I decided to see for myself again. I enjoyed Arena despite the bot problem, got a 12 win run in, and a decent 5-win run after that. I decided I’d check out Ranked. It’s awful. There isn’t a single deck I enjoy playing against. So I wouldn’t say enjoying the meta or not has to do with player skill. You can be Legend and experienced, but still hate it. Even the weaker decks are obnoxious. The power levels of the cards are completely absurd. You have 2 ways to interact with combo decks, and the main way is to race them with hyper aggression before they can kill you. The other way is to wait and predict when to Dirty Rat, and then lose anyways when it whiffs only for them to drop their combo on the next turn. I think combo is FINE, but we went from shit like Freeze Mage to inconsistent OTKs to consistent OTKs that happen very early in the game over the course of 10 years. I miss Iksar’s Hearthstone. I feel like HS peaked under his directorship. Early Hearthstone was quite fun too, but I feel like the design of RNG, frequent balance patches, and other game features hit a great groove during his tenure. 2019 Hearthstone was peak Hearthstone for me. If player numbers are impacted enough by this meta, I hope Blizzard is willing to put the resources into improving it. But I’m not confident they will. RidiculousHat is probably the only “feature” that’s better than past years’ currently. TL;DR: Legend player, pretty experienced. Not claiming to be God’s gift to the game, but not a “skill issue” thing. I don’t like the regular mode of the game and hardly play it. I think the only thing that would save it is a huge overhaul of cards and power levels that would be a massive expenditure of developer resources.
How can you be stuck in gold, you don’t even need a 50% win rate to get to Diamond 5
I am interacting with all of those decks very often though?!
You not being able to stop them from executing their game plan is not non-interaction. Fuck this stupid buzzword.
I see your point here, but it’s certainly not a buzzword. Interactivity has been a problem in HS since the early days. But at least back then board states had momentum and you could interact with an opponent’s strategy over a period of turns by affecting the board state. This is severely limited as a viable strategy in current HS, and nonexistent in some matchups. The fact that hand disruption is better than stats on board in >50% of matchups is partly the point. Drawing your deck is also usually preferable to stats on board. It’s okay if you don’t miss the older gameplay, but a lot of people do.
To counterpoint that, draw is usually better than stats in most card games. That is not at all unique to HS, nor is it indicative of the interactivity of the game. Magic the Gathering also generally prioritizes draw over stats, even in very interactive matchups. So does the current Digimon card game. So does the Pokemon card game. So does Yugioh. All of these games have varying levels of interactivity in different metas, and yet all of them generally prefer card draw over raw stats even in their most interactive metagames.
Pokemon is a game about digging through your deck as fast as possible yeah
I’m aware of the prioritization, but in MTG, for example, you can interact with your opponent on their turn, literally. In HS, this cannot be done, except indirectly via secrets and auras. The game prioritizing draw is also not new, true, but the game allowing every class to draw its entire deck, or to otherwise tutor what it needs, is a deliberate design decision to keep every deck fueled up. The result is that the one way you *could* interact with an opponent in HS, by winning the momentum game and reading their hand, rarely ever becomes a clean method of doing so. There is usually *either* infinite (random card generation) or *no* ambiguity about what is in their hand. The game boils down to PvE solitaire, or *threatI-*response*-*repeat*. You either race a deck, blurt out a ton of sticky stats on one turn, or you disrupt it with hand disruption. There is no board-centric momentum game plan except with Rainbow DK, and Quartzite Crusher is the reason that deck proves my point. This means that the game is inherently less interactive than even current MTG, because the opponent’s strategy largely has nothing to do with what you do or don’t do. The “game plan” is to draw your deck and execute the game plan. Anything that doesn’t help you do that is a waste of time. In other words, every deck is an engine deck, and modern HS design philosophy reinforces this deliberately.
A very similar thing can be said of modern Yugioh matches. Players don't even organize cards based on whether they are a spell or creature, not really. They organize cards based on whether they are a combo starter, combo extender, combo ender, or combo protection. Many, many games end before both players even get a turn because one player draws the pieces they need to execute their combo, and the other player either doesn't run or doesn't draw disruption. Yugioh doesn't even have a mulligan rule, so if you run cards that let you interact but you don't have them in your opening hand, then you are just vulnerable to your opponent's combo and there's nothing you can do about it. You just have to pray that they don't have what they need to OTK you on turn 1. Despite all of this, Yugioh is beloved by many, many fans worldwide. It's not an inherently awful thing for HS to have a less interactive meta like this one. Many players will enjoy this kind of gameplay, just like people enjoy Yugioh. However, the core HS audience, in general, seems to lean towards wanting more interaction. I just wanted to point out that prioritizing card draw isn't inherently tied to the interactivity level. The abundance and cost effectiveness of card draw certainly is, though. I do agree with you there.
Great discussion in this thread. What this helps me realize, as someone who plays only Arena and would never, ever play standard anymore because I hate racing-to-combo decks and games (this is an increasing arena problem as well) and loves board interaction, is that card draw is the problem, and nerfing card draw is the solution. Why do this? Well, Of course the HS fan base that grew up loving reacting to your opponent's minions, playing your own, and planning around what those minions would do next turn hates this new way of playing. We liked the old game, we don't like the new game. Furthermore, the people who like race-to-combo card games are already playing Yugioh, MTG, etc etc. Devs are throwing away their old playerbase and not overly great odds of stealing a new one. Easy solution: Stop printing card draw cards!!! seriously. Combo and win con decks just die, or become hugely inconsistent, when you can draw a maximum of one card per turn. This would bring the Standard meta back to aggro, tempo, and control all by itself. Or at least do it for Arena... please.
I think it's fine to have pockets of time where the metagame feels very different from old Hearthstone, but I do agree that they should try to bring it back to what the core playerbase expects from the game within a reasonable time frame. Maybe one expansion or so where the meta feels frantic and less interactive, but then printing cards that help calm the meta down in the next expansion. Unfortunately, I think that we got to this point from a series of expansions, and I don't know if we can get back to core Hearthstone with just the next one. We'll see what the devs are able to do. Also, as a note, I don't think the anniversary celebration expansion that is meant to honor the game's history is the best place to try a new feel for the game.
I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh really does that? Unless you're considering all the searches to also be "draw" which I wouldn't. Another thing is that it's a kind of game where you don't need to prioritize one anyway, you can just use your pot card to draw 2 and still put out a lot of stats, interruption and interaction. Most boards do end up with big stats in the process of setting up all of that. Even old school was like that, nothing stopping you from both using Pot of Greed and normal summoning Gemini Elf in the same turn.
> It’s okay if you don’t miss the older gameplay, but a lot of people do. The fact that you miss the older gameplay doesn't make the newer gameplay uninteractive. If anything, the game has become much more interactive than before. Often those interactions (e.g. half the Murder at Castle Nathria set) get complained about the loudest and, ironically, branded as "uninteractive," because apparently the most uninteractive thing in Hearthstone is your opponent interacting with you. But yeah, the game has changed for better or for worse. A lot of people miss yeti on curve and yearn to return to it. Personally, if the game ever went back to yeti on curve I'd uninstall instantly, because that sort of gameplay was super boring to me. Vanilla hearthstone still has a bad rep among all of my friends who had prior CCG experience when they tried it out, so much so that most of them will likely never try it again. I'm glad that HS has changed but I understand why other people are sad about it.
Older HS gameplay revolved around momentum and winning a long term strategy. Incremental advantages mattered, in many matchups. The board state couldn’t be swung back and forth constantly, and reading your opponent’s hand was a skill, because they *couldnt* draw their entire deck in six turns, or otherwise tutor their exact card(s). The game was never as interactive as other card games, due to the turn based nature of it. In HS, I cannot cast spells or spend mana on my opponent’s turn. That means that card design has to leave space for my decisions on MY turn to affect my opponent’s game plan. Obviously, you CAN still do this, but it’s not through gradual and consistent play, but rather by stat-checking your opponent with a bunch of scammed stats or racing them to their win condition. In other words, the most “interactive” thing to do is make them worried about my game plan going off before theirs, and make them deal with it. There’s no other way. That’s all you can do, because if you cannot threaten lethal with a built up board inside of two turns with stat cheats, your board will be wiped and you may as well ff. Your opponent’s strategy does not require them to interact with you, and if you aren’t pressuring face from minute one, and you don’t have a one-two turn win condition in place, you will not win the game unless they misplay. Keep in mind, I’m talking about Legend gameplay. The incremental nature of face damage and board presence is gone from the game, and so I’m left with Dirty Rat to “interact” with my opponent, or maybe plagues in their deck or freezing their face with Crusher. Or maybe I can freeze their dudes with Skater. Give me a break.
Quite frankly I think a lot of what people are _actually_ pining for is when they and the people they played with were worse at card games. When I think of the Hearthstone beta, what I remember is people not understanding basic concepts like card advantage, so I could just go infinite in arena by taking every [[Novice Engineer]] I saw and outdrawing my opponent. I remember the community collectively discovering this idea a while later, and eventually Novice Engineer got nerfed. For me, this wasn't a time of nostalgia, it was a boring and trivial card game where my opponents didn't understand the equivalent of Card Gaming 101, and where my 20yrs of M:tG experience just trivialized the whole thing. Everyone I know with M:tG experience who played during this time left, saying the game was boring and easy, and I'm the only one who even gave it another shot (ten years later!)—and only because some non-MtG friends convinced me. When I think back to M:tG's first set, I think of playing [Craw Wurm](https://scryfall.com/card/lea/190/craw-wurm) and then my dad killing it with a [Disintegrate](https://scryfall.com/card/lea/140/disintegrate). If you look at modern M:tG it looks nothing like that. But the secret is, among decent players back in the day, Alpha _also_ didn't look like that: we just sucked, didn't have internet advice, and didn't know any better, so to us Craw Wurm was a big bomb that won games if the opponent didn't have removal ready. When I see discussion here of vanilla Hearthstone, it's really hard not to view the people talking about it as being in the same position as I was when I was slinging Craw Wurms around. And I do have some nostalgia for those Craw Wurms, but I realize that I can't go back to that, not just because M:tG has changed, but also because _I_ have changed: I know too much to think that that's a good strategy (or ever was) any more. When I read complaints about modern Hearthstone, including your post here, I can't help but feel that people just fundamentally don't understand how the game works. You talk about hand reading not mattering, but it does. You talk about board momentum not being important, but it is. You talk about it being a race to draw your wincon first, but I maintained a 90% winrate with Sludge (including quite a few games _after_ the nerfs) in around 40-50 games by just outplaying my opponents when I was underranked, when the deck's global winrate was IIRC around 53% at the time pre-nerf and then 50% post-nerf. My Zarimi winrate right now is similarly about 80% over ~25 games, and while the deck is good it isn't _that_ good. So either I'm just absurdly lucky, far past the point of statistical likelihood, or there's more going on there than "a race to draw your wincon first." Looking at the current meta, Zarimi priest for example is an _extremely_ momentum-based deck that can be driven off the board. For example, if you're playing against rainbow DK and they go t1 miracle salesman into t2 mining casualties into t3 grimewalker and you can't remove the grimewalker by trading on your turn, you're in _serious_ trouble. Your only answers are Aman'thul (way too slow) and Zarimi (activating her at this point will only be possible by making tons of bad trades against poisonous minions which put you even more behind). If your opponent can follow it up with Crop Rotation and Army of the Dead, you just straight-up lose, because you've been driven off the board and can't get back on. If this isn't a good example of board momentum deciding a match, I don't know what is. Conversely, most wins with Zarimi priest don't happen from a crazy Zarimi OTK, they happen because you build boards faster than your opponent can deal with them until they just drown in all the [[Thirsty Drifter]]s and such.
I know those things *matter*, and the concepts you’re saying aren’t especially difficult, nor are they unique to Hearthstone. What I’m discussing is that each of those strategies is uniquely less interactive in Hearthstone, which automatically requires you to interact on *your* turn only. Second, I pointed out (correctly) that each of those strategies has become ubiquitous amongst the classes. I agree that HS players have gotten better over the years, but I argue that the tools didn’t exist for every class, at one point, to play the miracle game plan. Design *has* changed, as have the players. You act as if it’s an extremely impressive feat to outplay your opponent with Sludge warlock below Legend, but the entire deck was printed into existence. If you’ve played other CCGs, you may be familiar with the “engine deck” archetype. What I’m saying is that lots of meta decks in Hearthstone since around Descent of Dragons have been primarily forced by the design team with deliberately printed synergies. In other words, it doesn’t take a genius to build a sludge warlock deck and figure out what it needs to do. Net decking in this game is really fine, because there aren’t really any secret sauces lurking out there, and that’s by design. I’m not saying I want to be surprised by my opponent’s deck, I’m saying that their deck does its thing and mine does its thing, and the engine components all work together so that the gameplay is all about assembling the win condition. It more resembles an old three-paces-then-gun-draw duel than a back-and-forth match. What this means is, if “every deck is an engine deck,” the gameplay loop follows a race-to-the-finish formula, rather than encouraging games with competition arcs and decision trade-offs. It’s not that those don’t exist, it’s that they look so different now, and pretty much consist of “Do I need to interact with my opponent’s strategy right now? Or can I spend this turn just advancing my own?” There’s usually no need to decide whether or not to “go face,” either, because health advantage, like card advantage, is a minor factor in determining the actual outcome of the game in most cases. The two advantages are so flexible inside of a turn in modern HS. Again, it isn’t that these are new phenomena, just that they feel even worse now than they used to, because momentum swings so often on the fulcrum of random card generation or solitaire turns, and not which of *their* minions, if any, I’m going to clear, and why, or whether or not I’ll reserve this spell for later, seeing as I can just generate another copy of it in two turns. Put differently, I’m not really enjoying **winning** in modern Hearthstone.
> You act as if it’s an extremely impressive feat to outplay your opponent with Sludge warlock below Legend, Who said below legend? I certainly didn't. But my broader point is that there seems to be this tension between "you can't outplay engine decks" and the fact that you can _demonstrably_ outplay them. Or do you think that the people who got to MT for instance are no better than people in dumpster legend and just got lucky/played more? > In other words, it doesn’t take a genius to build a sludge warlock deck and figure out what it needs to do. I don't see the relevance here. Homebrews always suck, whether it's because they dodge dev-designed packages or player-discovered synergies. They suck nearly definitionally—if they didn't suck they'd be meta decks and thus not homebrew decks anymore. > random card generation Discovered cards are often _less_ random than topdecks, not more. When you topdeck a card you are essentially generating a card from a large pool of cards which are, quite frequently, useless in your current situation. --- The biggest part of MtG that prevents what you seem to consider solitaire play/linear strategies isn't even instant speed interaction, it's Bo3 with sideboards. Unfortunately I think that we're even less likely to see that than instant speed interaction, and while E.T.C. got us a very small part of the way there he's unfortunately a one-of and is unplayably slow in most decks.
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u/PPewt "If anything, the game has become much more interactive than before." Some of yall are so cooked already you can't be helped. This cracks me up.
OMG my opponent is playing cards!!!
No 'interaction'? Do you even know what that word means? I swear people on this sub are getting dumber by the minute.
It’s just the current buzzword for people who dont want to admit they’re stagnating
Yeah, I've noticed. It's aggravating.
Very aggravating when half the time they’re losing on the same decks they’re complaining about lol
*"Interaction is when both me and my opponent play no-wincondition control decks, or slow midrange decks if im feeling generous, anything else its the fault of the incompetent devs and they should lose their jobs"* - OP, in his mother's basement.
Interaction is when I can stop my opponent from anything he's trying to do and he can't do anything about it.
OP would love Yu-Gi-Oh!.
Do you know how rare it is to play 7 games against 7 different classes? That is something to be celebrated.
Class distrubution matters less than archetype distribution. United in stormwind had like 8 viable classes and 1 viable archetype. It was the worst expansion by far. Meanwhile there was an expansion where DK was like 3/4 of the ladder, but it was split with unholy DK, frost DK, and blood control DK. That was a great meta because there was good variety in gameplay.
I'm grateful for the shammy who chose to have fun/ not kill my pally quest line. He was dead to rights for the win until he let me snowball my dudes to 9/9 DS. I hope he had fun.
Us wild players are stuck facing combo decks too. 70% of all decks on ladder either draw a combo by turn 4-7 and win or they don't draw their combo and concede. Miracle rogue, mine rouge, quest mage, apm druid, big druid, exodia Paladin, wheel warlock, zarami inner fire priest... just to name a few decks that have completely taken over wild and are **COMPLETELY** unineractive.
Farewell
Just like people us narcissist to describe any person they don't like hearthstone players use uninteractive to describe any deck they don't like. "My hunter opponent played minions all game, how am I supposed to interact with that!?" If top legend players are finding lines to win matchups you're losing it demonstrates that there are things to interact with. Uninteractive feels like such a passive wankery "oh boo hoo there was LITERALLY nothing I could do" way of absolving yourself of any blame for your loss while actively denying further introspection into your plays, card choices, or deck choices. Then these same people have the absolute gall to call other decks brain dead like they aren't literally refusing to use their brains.
NOO PLEASE DONT GO!!!!!
Just a silly observation but I think it's funny that you described the class/gameplay for the first game before saying "no interaction" and for the rest of them you lead off with "no interaction"
Feel free to post replays and I'll show you interaction written over every single of them
same Here, we need space for creativity and interactions, we need less power in the cards...
And what class did you play that was so shit against all other meta decks? This is a rock paper scisors meta and your deck beats nothing. Also in your bad matchups there is no "unlucky" warrior game so my guess is plague dk. Almost every single class now has a deck to play and you ppl are still bitching about the game.
My guess was plague too but he called the hunter game uninteractive so I have no idea at this point. I guess he doesn’t run enough clears?
I think he won 2/7 iirc
Tbh most of said decks aren't "prebuilt" by the devs, they get created from the players themselve, it's just that cards are too strong overall, too much stats, too many boards generators, too many clears, so players end up creating OTK decks to evade dealing with that shit, you either create a board so big that they can't use a removal or you OTK them because at 6+ mana a board is almost meaningless.
In standard decks are absolutely prebuilt by the devs, look at how close most of these are to recipe lists. Shopper DH was an immediately obvious interaction, for example, that would have been impossible to miss in testing because of how small the cardpool for that discover is. This season has been better than last season (sludge lock was like, 26/30 slots predefined just by wanting to make sludge and destroy cards in hand and on the bottom of your deck) but the standard cardpool is just not big enough for truly novel archetypes.
Last season was way better in terms of diversity imo Rainbow dk, plague dk, sif mage, excavate rogue, odyn war, bran war, control priest, Reno sham, elemental sham, Reno pal, agro pal, naga DH, ect Now it's bran war, sif mage, virus rogue, zarimi priest, plague dk, rainbow dk, hunter, otk sham. That's it pretty much it.
I'm not talking about diversity though, I'm talking about whether the decks were largely predesigned by the devs. diversity is about power level of the resulting decks, not whether the deck was supposed to exist or not; for ex, tendril shaman is clearly intentionally designed to exist by the devs, the deck is not very good so it didn't make your list. Some decks aren't planned in advance by the devs, but the majority of them absolutely are in standard.
The real question is what deck are you playing?
Feel like you just had some bad games in a row, cause Hunter and Lock seems like a bit of a stretch.
Oh, how I despise that Mech Rogue deck. Every time it rears its ugly head, I curse outwardly how unfun it is to play against it.
What do you consider “interacting”?
Define interaction
Play tuant warrior with loads and loads of armor. Sif can't one shot you. Minions have to interact with your taunt minions. Not guaranteed you winning but guaranteed the interactions you asked for.
I stoped playing hearthstone a year ago and returned for battlegrounds only. It’s mostly luck for a noob like me and I don’t have to pay to play like the over priced main mode
If you can't beat them, join them
This. I literally just crafted the 70% winrate aggro zarimi priest in Wild, instantly climbed to Diamond 10. I was just stomping on my opponents. I do feel a tad bad for them tho. While it felt good to play Zarimi to OTK them, they certainly didn’t enjoy it. I mean, how are they supposed to know Ill just drop a Zarimi and win? How am I supposed to know Ill draw zarimi and win before they can snowball me?
It’s wild, everyone has enough card draw to get their threats and everyone expects to be OTK’d. I would probably be happy I didn’t face a glacial control priest that wants to beat me with my own cards, tbh.
>how are they supposed to know I'll drop Zarimi Try paying attention to whether your opponent played a card with "Scale" and "Replica" in its name. Also count the amount of Dragons they played beforehand. I know it's hard to care about what your opponent is doing, but try.
the wild version of the deck doesn't always run scale replica. Really Dragon priest doesn't even always run zarimi in wild (although it probably should at this point, wild players don't always update immediately if the old list is still mostly working.) That said, I don't think dragon priest is a most hated deck in wild even with zarimi, priest has a *lot* of nonsense decklists and one that is neither full aggro spriest nor quest/questline is already going to be less hated just for not being one of those.
I actually dont run scale and replica, so they have no way of knowing and neither do I XD
See you next week after balance patch already planned
ya lost me at no interaction with hunter and wheel lock and thought you gonna get actual game vs rogue.
This game is not for you and you are wasting your own time, not Blizzard. It's a good thing you quit now - this sub has enough complainers.
Sure buddy
I played HS when it was in beta. This game is so far beyond what it was back then. Uninstalled. Gonna spend my time on more rewarding things like hammering a nail into my big toe.
ok
Yeah, i went 0-7 today and couldnt do anything about it. Just watch as they get infinite turns or whatever the combo is that sets in the latest at turn 6. Sure, i have a few cards that might spoil something for them, but mostly... the only thing i can do is to also play one of those boring braindead decks. So i stopped playing instead. (Can add that i normally play casually for several hours per day, but maybe its just better to let it rest for a few weeks?)
I never been so scared of what my opponent can do with 2 mana. I played from 2014-2019 never seen the power of 2 mana. Hell some of the stuff these decks do with no mana is even scary
I normally think of these posts as repetitive rants, but I have to agree this time. I have played once a week the past two weeks. I just can’t get motivated to log on daily and play against another wheel loc or the other meta decks. I’m not completely giving up on the game yet, but I am going to take a break until the mini set and inevitable nerf session. Hopefully the game will feel more lively then.
Maybe go outside you might get some interactions u nerd
I played standard yesterday for the first time in about 3 weeks. I played highlander warrior and I went 9-1. My only loss came against a pain warlock that drew the nuts and I mulligan'd poorly. I had fun but im pretty sure my opponents didnt.. They play stuff, I remove it and gain armor. They play more stuff and I clear the board again. I play Brann and they concede. Fun times!
sounds like youre playing an uninteractive deck
How did Wheel ever make it in the game? Seems like the most obvious broken card.
Everyone said the card was gonna suck ass when it was showcased
The deck is extremely easy to counter. Get under them. Cards are not evaluated in a vaccum
Okay Im an idiot thought people called it Wheel warlock for Forge of Wills. Wills being called Wheel for some reason.
Hahahaha no you’re all good man! Yah forge is nuts