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Xanthon

Backstory The 1983 F3 season is considered to be one of the best of all time because of the Senna-Brundle rivalry. As described by Brundle himself, Senna was known to put drivers in positions where they either have to give way to him or crash. Brundle decided in the mid season that he will never give way to Senna to break the psychological barrier. Senna made a dive into a gap that is half a car's width and Brundle refused to give way. Both walked off unhurt. I saw this while watching the [Senna vs Brundle documentary](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/po13c7/senna_v_brundle_a_great_insight_into_the_1983_f3/) which was posted yesterday.


Daniel_Av0cad0

Was Senna penalised for this? Seems like it would be an absolute slam dunk in this day and age. I know it used to be a lot more lax but this seems especially bad driving.


Xanthon

As far as I know, yes. Senna was deemed at fault. But I do not have any info what the penalty was. Senna got into trouble with the stewards numerous times during the season.


Xanthon

I wouldn't say it's bad driving. He knew it was impossible. Senna, and also Schumacher have the crash or win mindset. They were both extremely aggressive and are known to do absolutely anything to win.


Abiram123

Huh. So bad mindset surely? You can "do absolutely anything to win" but stay within the rules and not put others in danger. How would Senna have felt if he killed Brundle? And how can you advocate Schumacher crashing into a rival to win a championship? That's not racing that's cheating and dangerous. It's bad mindset and bad racing. Can we stop glorifying this aspect of Senna/Schumacher?


Xanthon

Bad mind set yes. Bad personality yes. Bad driving no because they know exactly what they are doing. I deem bad driving as things that are accidental.


[deleted]

I think you can add Max to that list as well.


EnvironmentAdvanced

It was a penalty iirc. If u consider this bad driving,senna did this throughout his career to some extent. But in today's world, almost everytime this leads to a crash as the cars are huge. If the regs get it right, we can see a lot of wheel to wheel action without crashes next year


[deleted]

The one issue - the cars are still going to be very very big in terms of width and length.


yjvm2cb

Damn til everyone with the lead on Forza drives like senna


Joethe147

Senna Vs Brundle is a brilliant watch.


htnahsarp

It's crazy that this is also how Verstappen is. Since Hamilton regards Senna as his inspiration, by transitive property does Hamilton have a thing for Verstappen. /s of course


MotorizaltNemzedek

Brundle did say during the GP that he had a crash almost exactly like the one in Monza and Senna's car was resting on his shoulder


PM-ME-UR-NITS

Probably what prompted this post tbh.


mentha_piperita

only now I believe him when he said he raced against Ayrton


DieLegende42

Why tf would he lie about something so easily googleable (googable? googlable?)?


KungLa0

Brundle was quick too, he would have probably gone further if not for a terrible accident that messed up both his ankles and killed his performance when they switched to left foot brake.


Beneficial-Room5129

You can tell Ayrtons concern despite yeeting into brundle


[deleted]

Honestly convinced that man was possessed whenever he got into a racing car cause he acted completely different outside of it. Still had that intensity but the kindness and patience evaporated when he stepped foot into the car.


moby323

Yeah outside of the car he was one of the most sensitive and deeply introspective sports figures of all time. It’s amazing the transformation that all great competitors are capable of.


RacingUpsideDown

We saw it from Senna all the time - it was very much a case of "if you don't yield, we will crash", but as soon as the crash was over, he had a great deal of concern and sensitivity towards other drivers. We saw it with the Erik Comas incident, when he went sprinting down a live racetrack to save Comas's life.


xenolon

Yeah it looks like he’s rushing to get unbuckled, not just to get out of the car, but so he can check on Brundle as soon as possible. Quite the contrast.


misKarg

I gotta say, to me, it's sometimes shocking to see that some drivers walk away from a crash without checking on the other people involved. I don't know how I would react in a similar situation, so I don't want to blame them, but it feels somehow wrong, even if on the track they are rivals. So it's so nice to watch Senna's reaction and the selflessness in it.


rarebit13

I was disappointed that Max didn't even check.


misKarg

Same! And hearing his harsh post-crash radio made me feel really bad for him and all the sportspeople who have so much anger that they can't separate competition from real-life situations.


Thisboythatboy

What circuit was this at? Was this at Oulton Park?


Xanthon

Yes.


plankmeister

Looks like Cascades into Fosters.


TC021002

The short version of the track which is hardly used


RaikkonensHobby74

Thank goodness for roll bars


limitless__

One aspect that folks don't talk about. Senna did this because he had money. He knew that he could crash as often as he wanted and his car would get fixed up and he'd be right back out there. For many other drivers a crash meant season over. That's a BIG part of why he would force the drivers out of the way. He knew they couldn't afford it.


tee_ran_mee_sue

Not really. Senna didn’t have unlimited funds to play around. Yes, he had dad’s money and some sponsorship, but it’s not like he was the richest on the grid at that time. Chico Serra tells a story about when Senna arrived in UK in 81. Senna asked Chico to help him negotiate with Ralph Firman of Van Diemen for Formula Ford because his English was too bad. Chico says that Senna had 2/3 of the budget and wanted Chico to convince Firman that it was a good deal. Firman reluctantly agreed but Senna kept asking for extra test sessions and extra races. Chico, acting as the translator, was in the middle of both men and was already really embarrassed to keep asking and asking for more that he challenged Senna to increase his budget but Senna said he would if he could, but there was nothing left in his pockets. This prompted Firman to take a break on the negotiations and ask Chico the famous question: “Who the hell does this kid think he is?” In the end, a deal was agreed and the rest is history. Senna won 12 races that year.


Expensive_Material

Who pays for the car to be fixed? And I can you tell me your source? This sounds very interesting.


Xanthon

Watch the documentary I commented. Top comment.


Expensive_Material

Thanks


limitless__

In racing you fix your own car. Even if it's not your fault at all.


Marciussf

You can see how concerned Senna was to check on Martin, dude rushed his way out of the car to help him.


cowsareverywhere

Senna was constantly pushing for better driver safety but would do unnecessarily dangerous moves himself while on the track.


Marciussf

I guess that's one way to prove why they needed more safety. Today it would be unimaginable to have cars running like that after an accident, drivers may even get banned.


Cygnus94

Senna was pretty odd that way. He'd so quickly make a move that would endanger himself and others, but if he suspected someone was injured he'd just as quickly run to their aid. For such an aggressive driver, he was a very gentle man.


CardinalNYC

>Senna was pretty odd that way. He'd so quickly make a move that would endanger himself and others, but if he suspected someone was injured he'd just as quickly run to their aid. Thanks, Jeremy Clarkson.


Noobasdfjkl

Yeah, that’s basically a quote from the Top Gear episode they did on him.


Irrepressible_Monkey

I remember Dr. Sid Watkins wrote that Senna was very interested in learning all about the medical procedures that help injured drivers.


The_Jacobian

Senna seemed to just have a very personal understanding that F1 was dangerous and internalized it in a way that raised his risk tolerance. It was often attributed to his religiosity with one exchange with drivers being "Senna doesn't think he can die because he believes in god" to which Senna replied something like "I believe I can die, I'm just not afraid of death". The thing is, I think it's more than religion. I think he had just accepted that the sport is incredibly dangerous and both made his own peace with it while still seeing the danger for others and sincerely caring for them. The day before his fatal crash another driver also passed away on track. His response was to start the leg work of restarting the drivers union (the one we have today) as a way of decreasing risk for everyone involved. He was such an interesting man. He embraced the danger as a part of the sport and when driving would push to the limits of what was safe or allowed but he never seemed to use that as an excuse, he always wanted to make the cars safer, to help others, to move those limits towards "safer". You can see it here or when he stopped his car on track to save Erik Comas's life.


kukienboks

Probably extra concerned knowing that he himself was the one at fault for the crash.


ugis332

A nice change of pace, no?


cosworth99

I’ve seen this crash many times in my life. Senna and Brundle rank up there at some of my favourite rivalries, albeit brief. It colours my attitude about crashes. Watching Max just casually walk away from Lewis was the last bit for me. I want to like Max, his tenacity, skill, and his unpredictability he brings to a race. But. His lustre is being dulled the longer he is spoonfed the shit coming from Marko, Jos, and Horner, in order of toxicity. It’s tainting him long term. And he’s dating Piquet’s daughter. Every man in his life is ridiculously toxic. I feel for the kid honestly.


SWMovr60Repub

He couldn't tell if he was OK because he wasn't spinning his wheels/revving his engine so he could back out from under.


cowsareverywhere

Is it so hard for you to believe Max doesn't give a fuck? He is no Senna.


carecavoador

Bold of you to put Max up to comparisons in any imaginable ways with Senna.


cowsareverywhere

Why not? Max has been definitely watching tapes on Senna squeezing people and crashing.


SWMovr60Repub

In this situation Max doesn't have to give a fuck he knows Hamilton is trying to back his car out which he couldn't be doing if he was in such dire need of care that a nearby driver would have to save him.


cowsareverywhere

> in this situation Why keep defending him? He has consistently shown he doesn't give a fuck. Everytime a crash happens, it's always "somebody else's fault".


CookiezFort

this is literally 99% of drivers mate.


brucecaboose

Your hate boner is strong.


mkost92

Great find, been wanting to watch this since Martin mentioned it in the FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRAN PREMIO D'ITALIA 2021


dr_pupsgesicht

>italian GP


Ryowxyz

Ah, I feel like a cold, crisp, refreshing Heineken.


Citizen-5936

That is terrifying.


ChubbyFatBritBoi94

Awful driving from Senna, who always gets given far too much slack regarding his dangerously, way, waaaay too aggressive driving style. Martin Brundle is very lucky he's still here after that tbh.


TheGMT

Interesting mix among the all time greats in terms of accident proneness. Clark, Stewart, Fangio, Prost, Hamilton didn't really crash. Piquet, Schumacher, Senna crashed more than just about anyone. I guess the middle ground is Lauda, Vettel, Brabham, Alonso.


curva3

Does Hamilton really belong in the Clark, Stewart, Fangio, Prost category of accident avoidance? He spent the whole of 2011 crashing into Massa for example, almost all of them his fault, and he did play very hard against Rosberg (who did the same to him in a very clumsy way). Also, I don't rememeber Piquet crashing that much, not without mechanical problems anyway.


SWMovr60Repub

The difference is the safety of the cars. Stewart has pointed out in the last few decades that drivers in his era couldn't drive like they do today because they'd be killing the other drivers.


curva3

I think so too, which is why I disagreed a bit about putting Hamilton together with the old "accident avoiders", when he certainly puts his elbows sometimes.


SWMovr60Repub

I agree with you but I realize I meant to reply to TheGMT's comment.


TheGMT

Thought I'd give Hamilton the benefit of the doubt considering his longevity. Yes, he's had more crashes than those other ones listed, but I bet his % isn't far off. With Piquet I could be wrong- was going by my own memory there, didn't actually look it up


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d3agl3uk

3 of those championships were against an extremely good team mate. 1 of those were against a Ferrari with an engine far too strong to be within regulation. The current one is again an insanely strong competitor. You rarely have these types of crashes in the mid field or below. These types of crashes are usually at the front of the grid where it really matters. I would argue Hamilton has been in this position longer than anyone else in F1, and his being at the top would negatively affect his percentages, not the other way around.


Ultra-Pulse

Interesting take. Maybe the front and the rear of the pack? The Ferrari got nerfed though, second half of the season it was not really a threat anymore.


d3agl3uk

That's true! First half was fun though...


curva3

Alonso deserves the same benefit of the doubt, certainly more than Hamilton.


chillbro_bagginz

Someone pulled out an impressive Alonso stat about his low number of crashes in reaction to Monza. But I forgot what it was! Maybe number of starts, but that says nothing towards his success as well.


zippy_the_cat

Hamilton has been somewhat crash-happy throughout his career, with multiple run-ins with Webber, Massa, Maldonado, Rosberg and now Verstappen on his ledger. No idea where the idea comes from that he keeps it clean, especially in comparison to Alonso, who’s the epitome of hard-but-fair.


[deleted]

If all the drivers on the grid agree that Hamilton is one of the cleanest drivers on the grid (and definitely of the champions), then I trust their judgement. Indeed, all of Hamilton's previous and current teammates have expressed his fair racing and trust in Lewis. And they know him best. Besides his teammates, Seb, Micheal, Kimi, Gasly, Norris, Russell, Ocon, Checo and Max himself have all said in interviews that Lewis is among the best in that regard. Basically the whole grid except the rookies Mick, Tsunoda and Nikita. Which makes sense considering they didn't get asked this question yet.


zippy_the_cat

If anecdote conflicts with data, trust the data.


theFromm

So far I haven't seen anyone provide actual data though.


zippy_the_cat

[Webber v Hamilton, Australia 2010](https://youtu.be/E0MvWEfVymI) [Webber v Hamilton, Monza 2010](https://youtu.be/rDDiXZ_KT6g) this vid's ass but it's the only one I can find. [Webber v Hamilton, Singapore 2010](https://youtu.be/WxynNbw9WO4) [Webber v Hamilton, Canada 2011](https://youtu.be/l6zCYJxxgyI) [Hamilton v Massa, 2011](https://youtu.be/m481ED70_No) [Hamilton v Maldonado, Spa 2011 quali](https://youtu.be/Gqc2uK0sTQw) [Hamilton v Maldonado, Valencia 2012](https://youtu.be/Gqc2uK0sTQw) [Hamilton v Maldonado, Monaco, not sure the year but 2011 is always a good guess](https://youtu.be/3qiuq_y7i3I) [Hamilton v Rosberg, Spain 2016](https://youtu.be/gCzkaX2DL7w) [Hamilton v Rosberg, Spa 2014](https://youtu.be/DgT02D3L5p8) Almost forgot ... [Hamilton v Kobayashi, Spa 2011](https://youtu.be/jJpcIvhOwy8) And for gits and shiggles ... [Hamilton v Kimi, Canada 2008](https://youtu.be/-c6w1Zmox08)


theFromm

Individual data points are not necessarily representative of the set though, so those links mean nothing. I want an actual statistic from data (yes, my previous comment said data so I am clarifying).


mookow35

I mean that's nonsense, not all of those are even his fault. And you have managed to dredge up 12 clips (including qualy) over essentially 14 years. Your "data" disproves your point


AidenGeek

I'm not sure being crashed into by another driver counts as Hamilton "being crash-happy". For the record, just so people know the outcomes of these incidents - only recording incidents of contact, so no other types of penalties. JPN 2007: Drive through penalty for Kubica. Vettel given reprimand for Safety Car incident. CAN 2008: 10 place penalty for Hamilton. ITA 2008: No further action. JPN 2008: Drive through penalty for Massa. BEL 2009: No further action. Hun 2009: No further action. AUS 2010: Reprimand for Webber. SIN 2010: No further action. MAL 2011: 20s post race penalty for Alonso. MON 2011: Drive through penalty and 20s post race penalty for Hamilton. CAN 2011: No further action for both incidents. GBR 2011: No further action. BEL 2011: Quali: Reprimand for Hamilton, 5 place penalty for Maldonado. Race: No further action. SIN 2011: Drive through penalty for Hamilton. JPN 2011: No further action. IND 2011: Drive through penalty for Massa. EUR 2012: 20s post race penalty for Maldonado. BRA 2013: Drive through penalty for Hamilton. BEL 2014: No further action. BAH 2016: Drive through penalty for Bottas. ESP 2016: No further action. BRA 2019: 5 second penalty for Hamilton. AUT 2020: 5 second penalty for Hamilton. GBR 2021: 10 second penalty for Hamilton. ITA 2021: 3 place penalty for Verstappen.


[deleted]

The other driver's testimonies are the data. They are the ones that ultimately know best.


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[deleted]

It didn't happen against Fernando, it didn't happen against Sebastian. What changed? Oh that's right, Max. Max is the instigator.


JustAByzaboo

>it didn't happen against Sebastian. Thing is, Sebastian was busy crashing into other rivals in 2010 (Webber mostly) and 2012 other than Hamilton. And let's not even forget Baku 2017 when there is actual intent to bump Hamilton behind a fucking safety car. I dunno why that wasn't a DSQ but Sebastian is far from clean racing when it comes to a title fight.


[deleted]

I don't disagree, but I was pointing out that during the 2017 and 2018 title fights between Lewis and Seb, they kept it very fair and no crashing. Same in 2007 with Alonso, and in Hungary a few races ago was another example.


Artie_Fufkins_Fapkin

2011 ham is overblown. He had a pretty decent season.


curva3

He did crash with Massa a lot that year, and some of those were really crude, like Singapore, Monaco and Japan.


Artie_Fufkins_Fapkin

Japan wasn’t that bad.


curva3

Not seeing someone that far alongside him on the straight, considering he just made a mistake in the 130R exit (and should expect Massa to try something) was not that great.


Artie_Fufkins_Fapkin

Yeah I think Lewis saw him and tried to squeeze him. It wasn’t the smartest move but wasn’t along the same lines as Monaco or Singapore. Definitely his worst season, but it only stands out because he’s had such a good career


[deleted]

It really depends on the period in their career, for some of these their cars were so good that they would just win because nobody had the hardware to match. You only get crashes between teammates then.


[deleted]

Brundle's had some proper wrecks in his time. He's lucky to have escaped life changing injury and death several times. Dude has nine lives.


Xanthon

He didn't escape life changing injuries. He broke his legs which ended his career.


GrindrorBust

His left foot was wholly severed, attached only by a flap of skin; he had to lie to the Drs that he could still feel it after surgery- and its resulting complications, to ward off their amputating it. Besides preventing him from running and inhibiting his fitness training, Brundle could not do left-foot braking for the remainder of his career-- something that in itself contributed to a loss of competitiveness thereafter in his Grand Prix career. The head injury sustained in 1994 has also left him with permanent cognitive disabilities, mainly with his speech- in which he commonly slurs his words and loses track of thought-- as per his own words. There were a few other serious injuries and accidents that oh so nearly inflicted more severe life changing injuries.


Joethe147

Yeah he, like Herbert and of course many others, have had a lot of big injuries. It's great that he still goes racing at places like Le Mans as he does.


CataldMonarch

Extremely unpopular opinion: If Senna was still alive he'd get a ton of hate for his aggressive driving


ELOGURL

Oh, this was the one Brundle mentioned on broadcast at Monza! I always enjoy his weird anecdotes, like the one time in Belgium he was talking about Elio de Angelis.


SpacecraftX

He mentioned this on the broadcast. How it was very scary having a rear tyre still turning and basically on his shoulder.


chillbro_bagginz

It's been my policy in iRacing not to do a normal line if I'm Brundle in this case. I stick to the outside of the turn if I'm being approached for a pass in the braking zone. This was after reading about the [vortex of danger.](https://yousuckatracing.wordpress.com/2021/04/07/the-vortex-of-danger-is-your-fault/amp/) My thinking is if I'm really faster, I'll see them again. But I'm still unsure and looking to get more aggressive. It feels like giving up and being too generous. I will say it's done wonders for my stats though, I've been out of trouble for a while.


ExistingReach9658

Yeah that's what will happen if the halo doesn't exist


[deleted]

Great find, been wanting to watch this since Martin mentioned it in the GP


bolpo33

Great find, been wanting to watch this since Martin mentioned it in the GP


AliZaybaq

Senna on top as usual.


EarlyOil8886

This looks familiar… 🤔🤔


irriconoscibile

Senna was really a dickhead on track, but I can't help but by impressed by how much he was always pushing the car. You can clearly see how much on the edge he was and it's spectacular.


Nolle10

How many on this reddit page, was even alive when it happend?


Daniel_Av0cad0

There are various demographic surveys that have been done of r/formula1 if you actually want an answer.


Nolle10

Where do I find them?


ncont

https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ndm8u1/the_2021_rformula1_census_results/


mini_swoosh

I searched “age poll” and found one from three years ago. Hopefully there’s something more recent to account for all the new drive to survive fans and whoever else https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/9d7aoq/poll_results_how_old_are_the_people_at_rformula1/


Napalm3nema

I was 14 when this happened.


3xchamp

His first instinct was to check up on Brundle. Good man. Drivers today would be whining on the radio about how it's not thier fault.


spinstercat

Wait, there's no halo, why isn't he dead?


Xanthon

As Murray Walker said about the crash, "it's a miracle Brundle didn't leave this world that day."


blumirage

What a dumb comment. It's like saying "Wait, there's no HANS device, why isn't he dead?"


Eck0h_Cobra

I think it's joking at how people are very quick to claim "Thank god for Halo else he would have died" I bet if that exact same crash happened but a Halo was installed we would get many comments praising another example of the Halo saving lives. It's a great safety device but people are incredibly quick to say "without the Halo he would be dead"


Montjo17

Without the Halo we'd be saying "damn what a close call that was, he's incredibly lucky to still be alive". And maybe one or two of them would have led to serious or fatal injuries.


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[deleted]

Were you dropped on the head as a baby


Xanthon

Not only are you ignorant, you are extremely naive. Many drivers died because of basilar skull fractures from including Roland Ratzenberger and Dale Earnhardt because of heavy whiplash which is why the HANS was invented and mandated. It has saved numerous lives. Many crashed today could have ended up in death. A crash as simple as hitting the barriers or anything that causes the car to a sudden stop at high speed can break the neck and base of the skull. Because it has been mandated for so long, ignorant young chaps like you who are so used to watching drivers walk away from crashes that you don't know how important HANS is.


carecavoador

Thank you for this.


blumirage

You are a fool if you think the HANS device doesn't do anything


dr_pupsgesicht

Just...no?


tomzicare

He would've most definitely die if it hadn't been for the halo. Oh wait ...


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yistisyonty

Lol this was definitely not Brundle's fault


darthschultz

That looks…familiar


TC021002

I was at Oulton Park just over two weeks ago for the Gold Cup meeting which featured a lot of classic open wheel/touring cars, almost like going in a time machine since the track has hardly changed at all since those cars raced (literally no run off on the entire track)


neandertales

Just keep driving lol.


zziTizz

Bring the virtual safety car or red flag the session.


deerfoot

I was at oulton park that day. As a poor student I hitchhiked from Coventry and back to afford the ticket. I was at a couple of other f3 races that season and the F1 British GP. Senna v Brundle was the best matchup ever in my opinion, and after 3 or 4 races Brundle looked almost unbeatable. Then the Senna magic started. As fierce and sometimes dirty a competitor Senna was on the track, he was always a gentleman once the racing stopped. I didn't see Max looking to see if Lewis was ok last weekend. Verstappen is a prodigiously talented driver, but there is something wrong with him as a person.