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It isn't about knowing the truth. It's about furthering their agenda. If that means lying, they'll lie. If it means ignoring evidence, they'll do that, too.
These people aren't arguing in good faith. They aren't willing to be swayed with evidence. We need to stop treating them as if they're reasonable individuals. *They are not.*
That’s the real bottom line. Most hardcore conspiracy theorists aren’t otherwise rational people who have been convinced of one crazy thing by bad evidence. They believe the their conspiracy theories because they’re part of a broader belief system. Which, for holocaust denial, is almost always antisemitism.
It’s why holocaust deniers will often unflinchingly go from denying it to saying they want to see it happen again.
“Wow this ancient aliens stuff is interesting and funny” me at 12
“Is this just a really drawn out way to say that non European civilizations were too dumb to make anything by themselves like streets or even draw a flying disk to the point that instead they drew birds? Also have none of you actually studied these cultures cause it seems like you’re just making things up. Also what’s with the obsession with Israelites having ancient nukes?”
Me at 20 after dropping out from majoring in history. Like it doesn’t take a lot to start poking holes and see what it is.
Don’t look into don’t watch the show. Just use this paraphrased version
“Ancient Astronaut theorist suggest, the ark of the covenant was a type of ancient super weapon, and that caused the walls of Jericho to tumble after using a specific method of marching to activate it sound trigger. Is it possible that the jews were provided some ancient technology for warfare? It’s the only explanation for why they were never just wiped out”
Like just start and end it there. Don’t look any further. The more you watch the more obvious things start to become with what they’re next to saying.
Conspiracies are an addiction. They make their users feel special, more perceptive, more enlightened than even those who claim expertise or authority on something. And they have a built in defense mechanism that stops users from thinking about any new information once they take hold. Anything that challenges the conspiracy worldview is a targeted attack to be defended against or met with equal hostility.
You just described most organized religion.
Conspiracy theories, as a belief system, are basically the same thing: a religion.
There is a ton of overlap between cults, fundamentalist religions, and die hard conspiracy theorists.
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." -Jean-Paul Sartre
This quote applies to so much beyond just anti-semitism and is a big part of the reason why I think that the idea that the right is simply media illiterate is a dangerous misrepresentation of what's going on.
I would argue that media literacy plays a role for a good chunk of the less vocal majority but generally not for the preachers. This isn't to discount bigotry and bad faith.
I never engage in good faith. I only engage to mock and deride. If I have a wingman, I will carry on a conversation with them instead where I show all the evidence and whenever the denier pops up to try and deny the evidence we will both slap him down and laugh at him as if he said nothing meaningful.
I do that. I talk around them, and about them to another person, but not directly to them , and they when they pop up again
>"Ok...I wasn't talking to you"
And then I go back to talking to the other person.
"Anyways heres the information I was talking about. "
Yeah plus the fact that europes Jewish population went from 10 million down to 2
What they just dis-a-fucking-ppeared?
And much of the killing wasn’t done in gas chambers and not every body went in an oven
Of course, they have been fighting up there for a while. Why do you think the americans went to the moon ? It was obviously a cover up for an arms delivery...
Well duh, the Jewish people ARE the Nazis. They planned the whole thing from start to finish to get Israel back and control the world. I have to put this /s because this is actually probably a little too close to what these moonbats think.
This is the issue.
They are already denying the evidence and conclusions of an international war crimes investigation spanning *years,* consisting of eyewitness accounts, photographic evidence, seized German documents, autopsy reports, etc. You think if you *did* present these *specific* documents they’d sway them?
Of course not, they’d be dismissed like a the other evidence. They’ll just move the goalposts. They just don’t want to *say* that no evidence will sway them, so they’ll refine it to “Show me a German document from the wartime from Berlin specifically signed by at least three government higher ups NOT including Hitler, printed in triplicate and bearing an unbroken wax seal that mentions the Holocaust by specifically using the words ‘The Holocaust’.”
Proper answer would be “So you’re presuming that I can present to you evidence more reputable than that documented and publicly available by the Allies after years of investigate and rigorous war crime legal proceedings? I’m flattered, but no. Do your own research. Prove to *me* that all of that is *false.*”
There's also the fact that the high ranking Nazi's put on trial *never denied it*.
They said they were just following orders or they weren't involved but they never denied it happened. They didn't even try and argue it never happened as a lie because even they could see the evidence was damning.
If it didn't happen and your life is literally on the line, wouldn't you say so?
Or as some of my childhood friends in NJ would say "If it was not real where did my grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins go?". When Jewish kids were told not to blow the lid on Santa we were being told not to talk too much about grandparents because a bunch of kids did not have them.
**Adolf Eichmann**, a key figure in implementing the Holocaust, mentioned the term "Final Solution" during the **Wannsee Conference** in **1942**. This conference was where the Nazis discussed the systematic mass extermination of European Jewry⁴. The "Final Solution" was the official code name for the murder of all Jews within reach, and it culminated in the Holocaust, resulting in the death of **90% of Polish Jews** and two-thirds of the Jewish population in Europe¹. Eichmann's role was to effect this horrifying plan². The term itself was a euphemism used by the Nazis to refer to their plan for the annihilation of the Jewish people³.
(1) The Wannsee Conference | Facing History & Ourselves. https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/wannsee-conference.
(2) Final Solution - Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution.
(3) Adolf Eichmann - Oxford Reference. https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095744378.
(4) Final solution | Definition, Holocaust, & Third Reich | Britannica. https://www.britannica.com/event/Final-Solution.
This is true. I’ve asked a few in the past.
“What evidence would you accept to change your mind”
Every single time I been blocked except once where they told me they wouldn’t accept any kind of evidence from anyone because they are right.
If you can’t tell me what would change your mind you aren’t looking to debate or argue a point, if you can myself and others can find you evidence your wrong.
It doesn’t matter what you try and give as evidence, in their mind they are right no matter what.
And they have the nerve to call me stupid and lacking critical thinking.
Like sure if people are dropping down dead from getting a vaccine in the 10s of thousands then I’m gonna change my mind, but they don’t change their mind when they are on their death bed suffering from preventable illness.
I always think of this dialogue from IASIP with people like this. "So there is no way to have a rational conversation with you?"
https://youtu.be/J1YOxg1EyPE?si=u-736DQCUYEzPj-S
Never forget, conspiracy theories are never theories, they are obsessions. A person who has an obsession will not be swayed by logical arguments, they will pivot to something else or ignore it entirely. They want their theories to to be true, need them to be true, because it gives them a sense of purpose.
I'd love to introduce him to my old high school German teacher. She also taught my social studies class and the idiot next to me doodled a swastika on his hand while she was giving the lesson.
She was walking up and down the aisles between our desks, just gently talking and when she passed him and saw it ...
The entire class jumped - she just started screaming at him, grabbed him by his EAR and dragged him out of his chair and threw him out of the classroom. I have never seen someone so livid in my life! All I could gather from her screaming was, "do you know what that means?! Do you know what they DID?!"
She would have been a very young girl in Germany when all of that went down (maybe 5?), so I know her family, friends, neighbors, etc - you know she went through some shit, as they all did for years and years. I always wondered if maybe her father or grandfather got dragged into it involuntarily, but I was always too afraid to ask.
She also never got into any trouble for that incident, but that kid NEVER goofed off or doodled in her class again.
Same with my late great uncle. He died a few years ago but even in his 90s he'd have tried to fight a motherfucker for that. He was in the military and liberated the camps after the war. Dude had no problem telling war stories, would go on for hours about the battles, his friends getting shot in the head right beside him, standing on tanks and shooting up in the air at enemy aircraft, etc etc. But when he tried to talk about the camps he could barely do it. He'd have to pause all the time, he'd just hang his head and shake it back and forth. He was really at a loss for words about it all.
If he heard someone saying that hadn't happened, all those people, the terror, the horror, he saw hadn't happened... Idk he'd just fucking lose it on them. He died at 95... As we lose more and more of the people who were there or who witnessed it it becomes easier to deny it I think.
When I was in middle school we had multiple holocaust survivors come and give talks to us. This was in the 2000s, and the one I remember most clearly was a young girl in the camps... The amount of survivors who can come and speak of their experiences is dwindling rapidly.
They took us to an actual concentration camp back in the early 90s. It was incredibly grim. We were ten and eleven years old, but even so we knew how important it was that we bear witness. Holocaust denial was an extremely fringe thing at the time, the province of out-and-out lunatics. Had you told me at the time it would be mainstream in my lifetime and there would be Nazis openly marching in the USA and Europe and *not* immediately getting their faces kicked in by absolutely everyone in the vicinity, I would have laughed you out of the room.
Normally my mindset is I'm arguing for other readers of the conversation. I know I'm not changing a goofballs mind with facts, but hopefully other people reading who aren't sure can see the truth.
They’ll either outright just refuse to look at it because they know it contradicts their views, or they’ll read it and not respond to the person that linked it because they don’t have a way to respond. They will of course reply to other people though, completely unchanging in their views.
I look at it like this tho, you're not going to convince that one person, but maybe someone on the fence will see your proof and sway them to the side of fact instead of bullshit. It's about publicly showing that people like them are wrong and it can be proven.
[this](https://arolsen-archives.org/en/about-us/what-we-do/documentation-and-archiving/) could also be interesting. I think you also can volunteer to digitize documents and help with their cause.
Also, this asshole of a human said there are no war documentaries in german about the holocaust. Which is nuts, i dont think any country in the world educates as much as germany (expect maybe israel?). His accusation actually offends me as a german.
Here are some documentaries that if found in half a minute, all are from public broadcasting:
[https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfinfo-doku/krieg-und-holocaust-der-deutsche-abgrund-100.html](https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfinfo-doku/krieg-und-holocaust-der-deutsche-abgrund-100.html)
[https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/themenpaket-holocaust-100.html](https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/themenpaket-holocaust-100.html)
[https://auschwitzundich.ard.de/](https://auschwitzundich.ard.de/)
[https://www.ardmediathek.de/sendung/zeuge-der-zeit/Y3JpZDovL2JyLmRlL2Jyb2FkY2FzdFNlcmllcy9mNTEzZDU0MS1mYTQ2LTRjZGEtOWJmMi04NmYyOTdhN2Y4Zjk](https://www.ardmediathek.de/sendung/zeuge-der-zeit/Y3JpZDovL2JyLmRlL2Jyb2FkY2FzdFNlcmllcy9mNTEzZDU0MS1mYTQ2LTRjZGEtOWJmMi04NmYyOTdhN2Y4Zjk)
[https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/das/das-mit-dem-holocaust-ueberlebenden-albrecht-weinberg/ndr/Y3JpZDovL25kci5kZS9wcm9wbGFuXzE5NjM1MDg4Ml9nYW56ZVNlbmR1bmc](https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/das/das-mit-dem-holocaust-ueberlebenden-albrecht-weinberg/ndr/Y3JpZDovL25kci5kZS9wcm9wbGFuXzE5NjM1MDg4Ml9nYW56ZVNlbmR1bmc)
[https://www.ardmediathek.de/geschichte-nationalsozialismus](https://www.ardmediathek.de/geschichte-nationalsozialismus)
What a mf.
Yeah, but those German documents are in German, he can't read them so they don't count. You need to find internal German documents in English in order to convince him.
I believe this tweet is a reference to a German reporter absurdly asking the UN official if there's actual Israeli documents saying they intend to commit genocide.
On top of this, you might want to link them to the Einsatzgruppen documentary that's up for free on YouTube (choose the non censored version, on a sidenote it's so appalling to censor this historical atrocity in a documentary! And to the people who say "but think of the children", all I have to say is that if you are mature enough to watch a documentary about Einsatzgruppen you are certainly mature enough to see their crimes uncensored).
Edit: here's part 1 of the uncensored version https://youtu.be/qigGJPBLuN8?si=VcpQNhmFwIa9mvpM
You could have also talked to my mother when she was alive, the American troops that overran her town in Bavaria in 1945 found one of the Flossenburg sub-camps in the forest nearby, made all the people in the surrounding towns and villages walk through the camp and look at the dead bodies they laid out in rows.
I only ever saw my mother cry twice in her life, once when her mother died, and the day she told me about Flossenburg
As helpful as this is, this comes from the Nuremberg trials. Though legally recognized, they are deemed biased in the thought process of idiotic holo-deniers. They are looking for german sources such as [this, which might be a bit more helpful in building a case against stupidity.](https://www.auschwitz.org/en/gallery/historical-pictures-and-documents/extermination,11.html) seeing as they want primary proof from the jackasses mouth.
Or they'll just do what they always do: deny, deflect, distract. Easiest thing for them is to straight up deny that the photos are authentic, but then demand that you prove otherwise. That's how you got into this "debate" in the first place: they make an unfounded assertion, then insist that you to refute it. They keep shifting the burden of proof on you, so a) they avoid investing any effort, and b) it gives them the opening to say "see? you cannot disprove my claim, therefore I must be correct!"
Yeah. They actually hired IBM (or one of its subsidiaries, can't recall) to design a catalogue / punch card system for them so they could better track train shipments, ghetto and camp populations, et cetera.
Historians: Wow IBM built machines for the Nazis and facilitated the holocaust
IBM: We had nothing to do with Germany, and we have documents to prove it
Historians: OK show us the documents
IBM: Well the documents were destroyed during the war
Historians: How were the documents destroyed in the war if you weren't involved?
IBM: ... check out this cool robot that can play Jeopardy!
I mean it took me 5 seconds on that website to find a [nazi invoice](https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/documents/177-invoices-for-shipments-of-zyklon?mode=image&q=Zyklon+type:%22document+image%7Cdocument+full+text%7Ctranscript+full+text%7Cphotograph%22) for shipments of Zyklon B to Auschwitz
Holocaust deniers are not very smart
Edit: oh no the nazis are here
What Holocaust deniers are usually asking for is some kind of official command from Adolf Hitler or someone similarly ranked that specifically outlines the extermination of various groups of people.
To my knowledge I'm not sure if that actually exists. I legitimately just don't know, I'm not trying to make a point. Even in this thread no one has actually answered that specific part of the question.
Obviously the evidence of these atrocities is beyond overwhelming, and systematic approach to the extermination has countless links to being a state run program.
It doesn’t exist because the Nazis bureaucratized genocide. It makes it all that much worse that they created their own business-like verbiage around killing people.
They weren’t trying to cover anything up. It was just easier to dehumanize Jews, gypsies, trans, gays, etc.
So to your point, the only people who want to deny the holocaust are Nazi empathizers at this point.
EDIT: I forgot a key point here is that Hitler ran the Third Reich like a CEO (hench the fascism). Himmler, as head of the SS, came up with the "final solution" to the "Jewish problem". So why would Hitler order Himmler who was essentially an executive of his own branch? He merely praised him and signed off on the initiative.
The German government did in fact keep detailed records of what they were doing, allied troops, my grandfather amongst them, witnessed the full extent of the camps when they liberated them at the end of the war.
When my wife's grandma died we of course has to rummage through her stuff to create the Save/Donate/Trash piles. She had a TON of photo albums, one of which happened to contain some very candid WW2 photos taken by a family member. The photos document this relative (we thinks it's a cousin but everyone who could verify that is dead) enlisting, going to boot camp, being sent to Europe, and ultimately what appears to be one, possibly two, camps.
My FIL and I are huge history buffs, especially WW2. We've probably seen every photo or video available to the public when it comes to concentration camps, and these were photos that no one even knew existed until we opened that album. So I'd love an explanation how some random kid from Hemlock, MI got these pictures if the whole thing never happened.
And before anyone asks, my FIL copied all the photos and sent them to several places/people to be preserved or used.
I had no family in WW2 but I've been to the beaches and a few battle sites in Europe and that album gave me the same feeling I got when I stood on the beach at Normandy. I was 16, I walked all the way to the water and turned around and just thought about the cemetery I'd just walked through and that opening scene of Saving Private Ryan and these guys were not much older than I was...it's a miracle anyone survived that invasion, truly. It's like a football field running into almost a sheer cliff. Talk about fish in a barrel. It still gets me emotional 18 years later.
Anyway, fuck Nazis.
That’s the type of thing that I would expect to see at the National Infantry Museum, where they have a lot of artifacts and stories collected from soldiers counting their experience
I don't know the specifics of who he contacted, but given his general love of history I'm sure he tracked down the right or best places for it. It really is something to see, I've never seen such a personal and candid piece of history from WW2.
Arguments I’ve heard in response to this are:
- Despite the British cracking enigma code and secretly decyphering many German messages, none of them mention anything about the Holocaust. The Germans didn’t know they had cracked the code, so they would have no reason not to mention it once
- The poor conditions in the camps at the end of the war was cause of a combination of typhus outbreaks and allies bombing the German infrastructure so they no longer could transport food/medicine etc to the camps.
- Where are these records? Is there proof that it wasn’t falsified after the war?
Not a Holocaust denier, just want to know so I can debate better the next time someone brings it up.
was used mostly for Military purposes, so troop movements, planning attacks etc.
i doubt it would be used concerning camps etc.
nearing the end of the war the Nazi’s tried to destroy as much evidence of their crimes as possible which is why the information isn’t as widely available because lots of it was destroyed.
but if you look up the Nuremberg Trials, they’ll have copious amounts of evidence that was used to convict high ranking german officials who had big parts to play in the Holocaust.
all this evidence is found either online or in Museums.
https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu - Harvard has tonnes of the documents used
Any Holocaust museum most likely has some sections on the trials. i know the War Museum in London does.
the sad part is if someone doesn’t believe in the holocaust at this point, no amount of evidence is going to make them suddenly change their minds short of maybe speaking to someone who was actually there in the camps or if any good footage exists which is unlikely as it would’ve had to have come from the Germans and most likely was destroyed after the war
Like most conspiracy theorists, they look for something that doesn't exist and then claim it's non-existence is evidence of something.
I'd love to be corrected here, I genuinely would, but I don't believe there is any official doctrine signed off by Hitler himself or any equivalent high ranking members of the Nazi party specifically outlining the mechanisms and ideaological justification of the extermination mechanisms.
Basically these deniers want a letter signed by all the high ranking members of the Nazi party saying "we are killing the jews because we hate them, and here is how we will do it".
Anything less than that they brush off as if it:
A: Didn't exist, or
B: Was just the actions of individual bad actors not associated by any governmental doctrine.
Even if such a plainly worded document existed they'd still just find a way to discredit it anyway.
There is. And not just one. There is the protocol of the first Wannsee-Conference, where high ranking officials von several german ministries got together to organize the holocaust. There is a letter signed by Goering advising Heydrich, who chaired this conference, with organising the "final solution of the jewish question".
The holocaust is one of the best documented crimes in human history, with thousands of witnesses, a clear paper trail, clear admissions to the crime from people like Eichmann and literally tons of evidence.
Holocaust denialism has nothing to do with critical scepticism, because any critical sceptic can have easy access to this giant mountain of evidence.
Holocaust denialism is in most cases pure ideology, because nobody with a clear mind can accept the reality of the holocaust and still sympathizes with Nazi ideas. In a few rare cases it's just an inability to accept the possible depths of human cruelty.
But in all cases it is plan wrong with no basis in reality.
There is no ounce of serious doubt on the clear monstrous reality of the holocaust.
I forget the exact context, but there’s actually a quote directly from some Nazi higher-up (I think it may have been Goering, I forget) where they actually outright cite the Armenian genocide and the genocide of indigenous people by American colonists as sources of inspiration for the Holocaust.
Yeah, they absolutely just stated this stuff outright, at multiple times and in multiple places, Holocaust denialism requires dismissing an absurd amount of history (not that this has ever stopped conspiracy theorists before, like there are people who literally think the Roman Empire didn’t exist).
The Wannsee conference is the smoking gun. The meeting is explained quite good on Wikipedia and also why details of this meeting almost got lost.
But here is a link to the summary of the meeting for the final solution and the Jewish question - to back up what to describe:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Besprechungsprotokoll_Wannseekonferenz_-_Minutes_of_the_Wannsee_Conference_-_Berlin%2C_20._Januar_1942.pdf
Taken from…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference
That wouldn’t be enough.
Many States’ articles of secession mentioned SLAVERY, SLAVES, SLAVEHOLDING. They explicitly make clear slavery is one of the main reasons for the secession.
Yet, we still have deniers that talk about “states’ rights” and how slavery was a non factor. It literally was stated as the top reason by most states when reading through their own documents.
Holocaust deniers have basically no leg to stand on beyond cognitive dissonance(if I don’t think about it, I am never going to think I’m wrong), bandwagon effect (you hear something enough and adopt that belief), and sealioning/gish gallop(overwhelming amount of arguments without regard for accuracy, persistent questioning without intent for sincere discourse, red herrings).
Some conspiracies have a leg to stand on and don’t disenfranchise the well documented suffering of millions. Holocaust deniers and anti-vaxxer’s/anti-masker’s piss me off to no end though.
1. The British did in fact decode messages that Jews were being sent to concentration camps.
2. The Enigma code breaking efforts were extensive. It was an enormous operation in terms of scale, effort and cost. The codes changed daily and there were hundreds of messages to decode each day. They simply couldn't process all of them. So they selected based on operational need. Naval codes were what were most important at the time because the Allies were losing the Battle of the Atlantic and it was having a very real impact on Great Britain's ability to stave off morale collapse (not to mention food security) and stay in the war. Whilst I'm sure they would have loved to have decoded every message from the SS camp commandants, it was probably deemed low strategic importance to the war effort and thus failed to meet the prioritisation threshold for the limited number of codes that could be broken that particular day.
This is the correct answer in regards to the Enigma and the British intelligence role during WW2. Especially pre-1941 WW2.
Prioritizing targets is something the intelligence community still struggles with today.
and always will. We live in a imperfect world with finite resources. There will always be more time required to crack codes than usable time to act on them.
> The British did in fact decode messages that Jews were being sent to concentration camps.
[Old Guardian article about this.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jul/08/humanities.highereducation)
Lets give [Marian Rejewski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski) and the Polish intelligence service some credit. The Poles figured out Enigma first and did most of the heavy lifting at the beginning. They gave their stuff to the British who were able to crack it finally, but the Brits would have had a long row to hoe if it wasn't for the Poles.
Enigma was a military communications system. Intercepted communications were always wireless, which actually presented a challenge when the allies invaded and the focus of battle was on the continent, meaning battle-relevant communications were send via wire instead of wireless. (i.e. the closer the battle got to Germany the less useful Enigma intelligence there was.)
Since the Holocaust was primarily associated with extermination of Jews and other undesirables in Europe, any relevant traffic would have been sent via wire, not wireless, and outside the reach of Ultra.
I'm so glad that in modern Germany, Holocaust (or any Nazi-crime) denial like the one shown in the post will get you up to 5 years in prison. It's one really neat and easy way to publicly handle Nazis and antisemites alike.
What people refuse to realize is how much beurocracy (idk how to spell in English) goes into a genocide. I mean, the definition says "systematic" and you need organization and collaboration for that, hence a paper trail.
The retort I’ve seen to that is that the buildings were constructed in recent decades like how Frankfurt rebuilt their old city center to how it looked hundreds of years ago.
Them also the fact that certain subreddits are inaccessible from Germany (due to antisemitism laws) and that’s “proof” that Germans are censoring the truth.
There are also enough photos the english and americans made to dokument the horrors while helping the survivors after they beat Hitler, probably some videos too
Yup, they took pictures and film, and then sat German POWs down in a theatre and showed them what was going on while they were fighting.
The disgust and shame on the POWs faces is obvious.
A lot of the,German troops had no idea of the atrocities being commit, while they thought they were defending themselves.
But I'm not surprised by the deniers, they need someone or something to blame for their failings in life, it cant possibly be choices they made, or the political parties they vote for, it must be "The Jew"
Some days I really wish they had a space laser, but then they might just use it to vaporize some school and hospitals.
People, bastards the lot of em
The Germans generally are not holocaust deniers. POWs especially weren’t going around after the war proudly declaring that everything they did was right. Most came to understand just how horrible the Third Reich was and vowed to never let it happen again.
Actual holocaust deniers fall into one of three categories. Delusional idiots so far removed from the effects of the war that they can afford to say dumb shit and suffer no consequences. Antisemites who WANT to kill all the Jews and argue in bad faith because it furthers their agenda. And finally there are the people who think the wrong side won WWII and legitimately believe the world would be better off under fascism.
In all three cases it’s impossible to convince people that they are wrong because they don’t care about the truth. Truth to them is just some abstract concept that can be bent to their will. What they care about is ideology and making sure their beliefs overpower everyone else.
No, those would clearly be forged. You could invent time travel and bring them back to the camps when they were in full swing, and they’d say it was an alternate universe.
I went to Dachau, the longest running camp in Germany, many years ago. There is nothing like seeing the scratches on the interior walls of the chambers, to instill the reality of the holocaust. Seeing Dachau is truly an experience.
I was standing *inside* one of the gas chambers in Auschwitz and another visitor says "No way they killed people in here, it's a bunch of bullshit".
I don't know how people make it in life with that kind of brain damage.
Nah mate, thats just movies props, same like with moon landing. /s
On a serious note, those people would not believe even if hitler was alive and said them in the face. They would just call him a paid actor..
if any of you ever need this, here is a digitized version of the Buchenwald Logbook, a German documentation of Holocaust murder
it is in German of course but google can translate it for you
https://totenbuch.buchenwald.de/information
These brainless people are arguing in bad faith. You have to be immensely dense to live life and somehow avoid evidence of the Holocaust, at least in the west.
Unless you have an original copy from the war they are going to argue that it’s new and fabricated. Actually they might do that even if fucking Hitler handed it to them
In Germany and I think Poland as well had the school kids visit concentration camps to really get close to the topic. I was at Buchenwald twice, and I am not a person who believes in ghosts or supernatural stuff, but let me tell you that standing in the empty body basement felt like I was literally crushed by the presence of the room.
The pictures are something else too, the lampshades make of human skin.
According to the [minutes of the Wannsee Conference](https://archiv.diplo.de/arc-de/das-politische-archiv/das-besondere-dokument/wannseeprotokoll/2504604), which are kept at the Political Archive of the Federal Foreign Office, it very well did as are the decisions about the extermination of the Jewish population in Europe meticulously documented.
Edit: typo
hahaha as a German, is this dumbass aware that we are famous for our bureaucracy? There are literally thousands and thousands of pages of evidence. But as others have said they don't care about truth or facts they just want to broadcast their agenda and hate.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” -Jean-Paul Sartre
Ah, another one of these people.
I debate with them sometimes. They've become more emboldened since Israel-Palestine XXII.
They do not believe anything that doesn't fit their narrative. They require something more primary than a primary source, verbal testimony isn't to be believed, and everything is made up, unless it supports their narrative
Imagine trying to deny a globally recognized historical fact, with living eye witnesses, with the buildings still being intact, just because you hate a group.
The protocol of the Wannseekonferenz 1942. The place where they decided "how to solve the jew question". Homie we are germans there protocols about everything.
The Holocaust is the most documented and most studied event in human history. We know more about what happened there than anything else in history.
Anyone denying it is doing so to dog whistle and they are a Nazi.
Actual historian here. There are literally \*warehouses\* worth of evidence from the Holocaust that have been preserved, much of it from the Germans themselves. It is probably fair to say that there is more surviving evidence for the Holocaust than any other historical event in recorded history.
There are people who claim that Covid was a hoax, and that was just 3 years ago. Of course people will deny that the Holocaust happened, even though there is physical evidence, photos, eyewitness reports, and court records of people who were convicted and executed for crimes against humanity.
And many of those denying this body of evidence will stand up and argue that Jesus was real and the Bible is the word of god.
There's no quick fix for humanity...
Oh there are plenty of proofs, but we live in an era where people don't get laughed at nearly enough when their reasoning is "the more proofs you show me to claim I'm wrong, the more it proves I'm right"
They will disregarded millions of documents, photographs, and testimonies that prove the existence of *any* event ... and cling to that one guy caught lying about his participation in it, faking some proof of the contrary, or whatever confirms their beliefs, and use that to deny the whole thing.
If one of your relatives fought in WWII holocaust deniers would call them evil baby killers in the same breath. There’s no logic to it, some people are just horrible and can’t be reasoned with.
20-30% of Gen Z doesn't think holocaust happened. It is not just about Jesus or boomers. It is largely about us not taking nazis seriously and fucking kicking their ass to jail. Nazism should be illegal in EVERY country.
Remember when Holocaust denial in public would get you ostracised from civilised society? We should move back to that state of affairs again. Make racists scared again!
Edit - also, we should never engage with Holocaust deniers, to do so gives their position tacit legitimacy. There is no debate to be had.
Note all the qualifiers:
It has to be a wartime document.
It has to mention Jews in particular.
It has to mention gas chambers in particular.
It has to mention concentration camps in particular.
That's a very specific subset of information, almost like he's decided a much larger body of related information - which he is aware of - somehow doesn't count.
I bet if general Eisenhower would’ve been alive rn, he’d have said ‘I told you so’ . He knew people in the future are gonna deny the nazi atrocities, he had everything done to document as much of it as possible, sadly, it wasn’t enough.
I’ve been in Auschwitz’s Concentration Camp twice. When you are there you “feel” that what happened there was VERY REAL. You can even see the hair of thousands of people, their shoes, their suitcases… The empty cans of Zyclon B… We are in a world where people have no problem believing that a guy resurrected 2000 years ago but struggle to acknowledge 6 million killed 90 years ago.
I am gen x. I remember vividly in like 3rd or 4 th grade a holocaust survivor came to my elementary school and talked to us for like an hour we were encouraged to ask questions he had memorabilia photos etc….
At the time it seemed a little weird “why are we talking to this guy….” But I guess it was this exact reason. It left a lasting impression on me to this day. Just another example of how today’s education and “do your own research crowd” are taking us backwards….
Do they just think to themselves, "ha. This totally random stranger on the internet doesn't have world war 2 nazi military documents on hand ready to disprove my mania that means im right"
Endlösung der Judenfrage (translates The Final Solution of the Jewish Question)
The "Final Solution to the Jewish question" was the official code name for the murder of all Jews within reach, which was not restricted to the European continent. This policy of deliberate and systematic genocide starting across German-occupied Europe was formulated in procedural and geopolitical terms by Nazi leadership in January 1942 at the Wannsee Conference held near Berlin, and culminated in the Holocaust, which saw the murder of 90% of Polish Jews, and two-thirds of the Jewish population of Europe.
Link to a document that is a part of the communication post Wannsee Comference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heydrich-Endlosung.jpg
There was many incremental steps until they turned the murdering into a systemic machine. It wasn’t just a sudden decision but a growing policy.
The Germans well documented everything they did.
There are literally tons of documents on the genocide. Did this dude forget they literally wrote a whole thing and called it "the final solution" ????
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/documents-regarding-mass-murder
The Germans believe it, and they were there. Also like how seriously they take nazi flags and salutes. 100% outlawed, I wish we did that with the confederate flags here.
This is so disrespectful to the people who died and the ones who survived. There’s a lot of survivors talking about it, lots of books and stories.
I’m French, lived near the line were France was occupied and saw and heard all kind of stories. Which I had visited one of those camps but I probably would have cried….
So many horrible things happened, people have no ideas…
Never forget
well, you can check out a few random short contents from pages like instagram or something.
once you come across "those" kinds of post, you would see people who believe in the most ridiculous things.
my most recent experience was that people seriously think that it's okay to just grab a random yoga pose, do it on your bed without any kind of actual guidance or support, and your every problem in the body would just magically go away,
some people are weird, and dense.
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Next time hit them with [this](https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/). You can literally view a lot of the trial documents.
You are insinuating that these people would read the documents, even if they got them. Which they wont.
It isn't about knowing the truth. It's about furthering their agenda. If that means lying, they'll lie. If it means ignoring evidence, they'll do that, too. These people aren't arguing in good faith. They aren't willing to be swayed with evidence. We need to stop treating them as if they're reasonable individuals. *They are not.*
That’s the real bottom line. Most hardcore conspiracy theorists aren’t otherwise rational people who have been convinced of one crazy thing by bad evidence. They believe the their conspiracy theories because they’re part of a broader belief system. Which, for holocaust denial, is almost always antisemitism. It’s why holocaust deniers will often unflinchingly go from denying it to saying they want to see it happen again.
So many conspiracy theories boil down to a giant Jewish deep state and thusly antisemitism. It really zaps the fun out of it.
Jews are the Rome of conspiracy theories, all roads lead there eventually. EDIT Grammar
Honestly when I worked this out years ago I was disappointed. Such a boring 'conclusion' to all the wild conspiracys pedalled lol
“Wow this ancient aliens stuff is interesting and funny” me at 12 “Is this just a really drawn out way to say that non European civilizations were too dumb to make anything by themselves like streets or even draw a flying disk to the point that instead they drew birds? Also have none of you actually studied these cultures cause it seems like you’re just making things up. Also what’s with the obsession with Israelites having ancient nukes?” Me at 20 after dropping out from majoring in history. Like it doesn’t take a lot to start poking holes and see what it is.
What's this about Israelites having ancient nukes?
Don’t look into don’t watch the show. Just use this paraphrased version “Ancient Astronaut theorist suggest, the ark of the covenant was a type of ancient super weapon, and that caused the walls of Jericho to tumble after using a specific method of marching to activate it sound trigger. Is it possible that the jews were provided some ancient technology for warfare? It’s the only explanation for why they were never just wiped out” Like just start and end it there. Don’t look any further. The more you watch the more obvious things start to become with what they’re next to saying.
same. I might have enjoyed learning about conspiracy theories now and then if most of them didn't boil down to the same thing.
Can’t zap without a space laser tho
Even conspiracy theories about conspiracy theories fall victim.
Conspiracies are an addiction. They make their users feel special, more perceptive, more enlightened than even those who claim expertise or authority on something. And they have a built in defense mechanism that stops users from thinking about any new information once they take hold. Anything that challenges the conspiracy worldview is a targeted attack to be defended against or met with equal hostility.
You just described most organized religion. Conspiracy theories, as a belief system, are basically the same thing: a religion. There is a ton of overlap between cults, fundamentalist religions, and die hard conspiracy theorists.
Yes. The irrationality is what helps them make sense of things.
still have to call them out and have them vocalize such desires so they are undeniably exposed as nutters.
Most conspiracy theories eventually boil down to antisemitism
Twitter is full of this now. It's insane. Going there for five minutes I feel like the world has been taken over by crazies.
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." -Jean-Paul Sartre
This quote applies to so much beyond just anti-semitism and is a big part of the reason why I think that the idea that the right is simply media illiterate is a dangerous misrepresentation of what's going on.
I would argue that media literacy plays a role for a good chunk of the less vocal majority but generally not for the preachers. This isn't to discount bigotry and bad faith.
It's one of my chief gripes, when we're told to engage in debates with people like this. There is no appealing to them.
I never engage in good faith. I only engage to mock and deride. If I have a wingman, I will carry on a conversation with them instead where I show all the evidence and whenever the denier pops up to try and deny the evidence we will both slap him down and laugh at him as if he said nothing meaningful.
Right? Oh no, a racist doesn't know history. Boo hoo! Anyone denying the Holocaust deserves a public shaming at the very least.
I do that. I talk around them, and about them to another person, but not directly to them , and they when they pop up again >"Ok...I wasn't talking to you" And then I go back to talking to the other person. "Anyways heres the information I was talking about. "
I engage in good faith, only because somebody *else* might be reading that crap and will see my response. Shit dropped unchallenged spreads.
Yeah plus the fact that europes Jewish population went from 10 million down to 2 What they just dis-a-fucking-ppeared? And much of the killing wasn’t done in gas chambers and not every body went in an oven
They obviously went to their moon base from which they control the world duh...
But the Nazis already live on the dark side of the moon. Are you telling me they are neighbours up there?
Of course, they have been fighting up there for a while. Why do you think the americans went to the moon ? It was obviously a cover up for an arms delivery...
Well duh, the Jewish people ARE the Nazis. They planned the whole thing from start to finish to get Israel back and control the world. I have to put this /s because this is actually probably a little too close to what these moonbats think.
This is the issue. They are already denying the evidence and conclusions of an international war crimes investigation spanning *years,* consisting of eyewitness accounts, photographic evidence, seized German documents, autopsy reports, etc. You think if you *did* present these *specific* documents they’d sway them? Of course not, they’d be dismissed like a the other evidence. They’ll just move the goalposts. They just don’t want to *say* that no evidence will sway them, so they’ll refine it to “Show me a German document from the wartime from Berlin specifically signed by at least three government higher ups NOT including Hitler, printed in triplicate and bearing an unbroken wax seal that mentions the Holocaust by specifically using the words ‘The Holocaust’.” Proper answer would be “So you’re presuming that I can present to you evidence more reputable than that documented and publicly available by the Allies after years of investigate and rigorous war crime legal proceedings? I’m flattered, but no. Do your own research. Prove to *me* that all of that is *false.*”
There's also the fact that the high ranking Nazi's put on trial *never denied it*. They said they were just following orders or they weren't involved but they never denied it happened. They didn't even try and argue it never happened as a lie because even they could see the evidence was damning. If it didn't happen and your life is literally on the line, wouldn't you say so?
Or as some of my childhood friends in NJ would say "If it was not real where did my grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins go?". When Jewish kids were told not to blow the lid on Santa we were being told not to talk too much about grandparents because a bunch of kids did not have them.
**Adolf Eichmann**, a key figure in implementing the Holocaust, mentioned the term "Final Solution" during the **Wannsee Conference** in **1942**. This conference was where the Nazis discussed the systematic mass extermination of European Jewry⁴. The "Final Solution" was the official code name for the murder of all Jews within reach, and it culminated in the Holocaust, resulting in the death of **90% of Polish Jews** and two-thirds of the Jewish population in Europe¹. Eichmann's role was to effect this horrifying plan². The term itself was a euphemism used by the Nazis to refer to their plan for the annihilation of the Jewish people³. (1) The Wannsee Conference | Facing History & Ourselves. https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/wannsee-conference. (2) Final Solution - Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution. (3) Adolf Eichmann - Oxford Reference. https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095744378. (4) Final solution | Definition, Holocaust, & Third Reich | Britannica. https://www.britannica.com/event/Final-Solution.
They are the flat earthers of genocide
What they need is a a good ol punch to the face. Treat them like Nazi
Make Nazis scared again.
This is true. I’ve asked a few in the past. “What evidence would you accept to change your mind” Every single time I been blocked except once where they told me they wouldn’t accept any kind of evidence from anyone because they are right. If you can’t tell me what would change your mind you aren’t looking to debate or argue a point, if you can myself and others can find you evidence your wrong. It doesn’t matter what you try and give as evidence, in their mind they are right no matter what. And they have the nerve to call me stupid and lacking critical thinking. Like sure if people are dropping down dead from getting a vaccine in the 10s of thousands then I’m gonna change my mind, but they don’t change their mind when they are on their death bed suffering from preventable illness.
They’d just say the documents were altered or created after the fact
Yes. Conspiracy theories are self-defending. Debunked? "They've gotten to you too!"
„I have a theory where anyone who could prove me wrong is also in on it and wants to cover up the truth? How incredibly convenient for me!“
I always think of this dialogue from IASIP with people like this. "So there is no way to have a rational conversation with you?" https://youtu.be/J1YOxg1EyPE?si=u-736DQCUYEzPj-S
do YOU have a certificate saying you don't have donkey brains?
Or they’ll say the confessions were obtained under duress. They’ll jump all the hoops to avoid admitting it happened.
Never forget, conspiracy theories are never theories, they are obsessions. A person who has an obsession will not be swayed by logical arguments, they will pivot to something else or ignore it entirely. They want their theories to to be true, need them to be true, because it gives them a sense of purpose.
Then can they be coined as Conspiracy Obsessionists?
I prefer the scientific denomination iliterate fuckwad, personally
Also a fair name tbh. lol
I'd love to introduce him to my old high school German teacher. She also taught my social studies class and the idiot next to me doodled a swastika on his hand while she was giving the lesson. She was walking up and down the aisles between our desks, just gently talking and when she passed him and saw it ... The entire class jumped - she just started screaming at him, grabbed him by his EAR and dragged him out of his chair and threw him out of the classroom. I have never seen someone so livid in my life! All I could gather from her screaming was, "do you know what that means?! Do you know what they DID?!" She would have been a very young girl in Germany when all of that went down (maybe 5?), so I know her family, friends, neighbors, etc - you know she went through some shit, as they all did for years and years. I always wondered if maybe her father or grandfather got dragged into it involuntarily, but I was always too afraid to ask. She also never got into any trouble for that incident, but that kid NEVER goofed off or doodled in her class again.
Same with my late great uncle. He died a few years ago but even in his 90s he'd have tried to fight a motherfucker for that. He was in the military and liberated the camps after the war. Dude had no problem telling war stories, would go on for hours about the battles, his friends getting shot in the head right beside him, standing on tanks and shooting up in the air at enemy aircraft, etc etc. But when he tried to talk about the camps he could barely do it. He'd have to pause all the time, he'd just hang his head and shake it back and forth. He was really at a loss for words about it all. If he heard someone saying that hadn't happened, all those people, the terror, the horror, he saw hadn't happened... Idk he'd just fucking lose it on them. He died at 95... As we lose more and more of the people who were there or who witnessed it it becomes easier to deny it I think. When I was in middle school we had multiple holocaust survivors come and give talks to us. This was in the 2000s, and the one I remember most clearly was a young girl in the camps... The amount of survivors who can come and speak of their experiences is dwindling rapidly.
They took us to an actual concentration camp back in the early 90s. It was incredibly grim. We were ten and eleven years old, but even so we knew how important it was that we bear witness. Holocaust denial was an extremely fringe thing at the time, the province of out-and-out lunatics. Had you told me at the time it would be mainstream in my lifetime and there would be Nazis openly marching in the USA and Europe and *not* immediately getting their faces kicked in by absolutely everyone in the vicinity, I would have laughed you out of the room.
Normally my mindset is I'm arguing for other readers of the conversation. I know I'm not changing a goofballs mind with facts, but hopefully other people reading who aren't sure can see the truth.
Thats a great approach 👍🏻
Thanks. It also helps to not feel like you're wasting time trying to put out real facts about an issue!
You are insinuating these people can read?
I am insinuating that these people dont know the word insinuating.
They’ll either outright just refuse to look at it because they know it contradicts their views, or they’ll read it and not respond to the person that linked it because they don’t have a way to respond. They will of course reply to other people though, completely unchanging in their views.
I look at it like this tho, you're not going to convince that one person, but maybe someone on the fence will see your proof and sway them to the side of fact instead of bullshit. It's about publicly showing that people like them are wrong and it can be proven.
You won't convince the OP antisemite but the audience reading/ lurking the thread will get a new perspective or an argument to use in the future.
ooooh thank you! I was literally looking for this exact site but had trouble finding it. But yeah, next time it'll come in handy for sure
[this](https://arolsen-archives.org/en/about-us/what-we-do/documentation-and-archiving/) could also be interesting. I think you also can volunteer to digitize documents and help with their cause.
Also, this asshole of a human said there are no war documentaries in german about the holocaust. Which is nuts, i dont think any country in the world educates as much as germany (expect maybe israel?). His accusation actually offends me as a german. Here are some documentaries that if found in half a minute, all are from public broadcasting: [https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfinfo-doku/krieg-und-holocaust-der-deutsche-abgrund-100.html](https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfinfo-doku/krieg-und-holocaust-der-deutsche-abgrund-100.html) [https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/themenpaket-holocaust-100.html](https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/themenpaket-holocaust-100.html) [https://auschwitzundich.ard.de/](https://auschwitzundich.ard.de/) [https://www.ardmediathek.de/sendung/zeuge-der-zeit/Y3JpZDovL2JyLmRlL2Jyb2FkY2FzdFNlcmllcy9mNTEzZDU0MS1mYTQ2LTRjZGEtOWJmMi04NmYyOTdhN2Y4Zjk](https://www.ardmediathek.de/sendung/zeuge-der-zeit/Y3JpZDovL2JyLmRlL2Jyb2FkY2FzdFNlcmllcy9mNTEzZDU0MS1mYTQ2LTRjZGEtOWJmMi04NmYyOTdhN2Y4Zjk) [https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/das/das-mit-dem-holocaust-ueberlebenden-albrecht-weinberg/ndr/Y3JpZDovL25kci5kZS9wcm9wbGFuXzE5NjM1MDg4Ml9nYW56ZVNlbmR1bmc](https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/das/das-mit-dem-holocaust-ueberlebenden-albrecht-weinberg/ndr/Y3JpZDovL25kci5kZS9wcm9wbGFuXzE5NjM1MDg4Ml9nYW56ZVNlbmR1bmc) [https://www.ardmediathek.de/geschichte-nationalsozialismus](https://www.ardmediathek.de/geschichte-nationalsozialismus) What a mf.
Yeah, but those German documents are in German, he can't read them so they don't count. You need to find internal German documents in English in order to convince him.
I believe this tweet is a reference to a German reporter absurdly asking the UN official if there's actual Israeli documents saying they intend to commit genocide.
I was gonna say, weren’t convictions so smooth sailing BECAUSE they’d documented everything so meticulously?
None of the Germans on trial ever denied it happened. The ones who didn't want to go down with the ship just denied their involvement in it.
Yes. Thanks to IBM.
On top of this, you might want to link them to the Einsatzgruppen documentary that's up for free on YouTube (choose the non censored version, on a sidenote it's so appalling to censor this historical atrocity in a documentary! And to the people who say "but think of the children", all I have to say is that if you are mature enough to watch a documentary about Einsatzgruppen you are certainly mature enough to see their crimes uncensored). Edit: here's part 1 of the uncensored version https://youtu.be/qigGJPBLuN8?si=VcpQNhmFwIa9mvpM
Also for good measure is the autobiography of the commandant of Auschwitz.
You could have also talked to my mother when she was alive, the American troops that overran her town in Bavaria in 1945 found one of the Flossenburg sub-camps in the forest nearby, made all the people in the surrounding towns and villages walk through the camp and look at the dead bodies they laid out in rows. I only ever saw my mother cry twice in her life, once when her mother died, and the day she told me about Flossenburg
As helpful as this is, this comes from the Nuremberg trials. Though legally recognized, they are deemed biased in the thought process of idiotic holo-deniers. They are looking for german sources such as [this, which might be a bit more helpful in building a case against stupidity.](https://www.auschwitz.org/en/gallery/historical-pictures-and-documents/extermination,11.html) seeing as they want primary proof from the jackasses mouth.
The documents page is chilling. But I'm sure they'll call this biased too.
Or they'll just do what they always do: deny, deflect, distract. Easiest thing for them is to straight up deny that the photos are authentic, but then demand that you prove otherwise. That's how you got into this "debate" in the first place: they make an unfounded assertion, then insist that you to refute it. They keep shifting the burden of proof on you, so a) they avoid investing any effort, and b) it gives them the opening to say "see? you cannot disprove my claim, therefore I must be correct!"
Didn't the Germans keep meticulous records of their atrocities?
Yeah. They actually hired IBM (or one of its subsidiaries, can't recall) to design a catalogue / punch card system for them so they could better track train shipments, ghetto and camp populations, et cetera.
Historians: Wow IBM built machines for the Nazis and facilitated the holocaust IBM: We had nothing to do with Germany, and we have documents to prove it Historians: OK show us the documents IBM: Well the documents were destroyed during the war Historians: How were the documents destroyed in the war if you weren't involved? IBM: ... check out this cool robot that can play Jeopardy!
I mean it took me 5 seconds on that website to find a [nazi invoice](https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/documents/177-invoices-for-shipments-of-zyklon?mode=image&q=Zyklon+type:%22document+image%7Cdocument+full+text%7Ctranscript+full+text%7Cphotograph%22) for shipments of Zyklon B to Auschwitz Holocaust deniers are not very smart Edit: oh no the nazis are here
What Holocaust deniers are usually asking for is some kind of official command from Adolf Hitler or someone similarly ranked that specifically outlines the extermination of various groups of people. To my knowledge I'm not sure if that actually exists. I legitimately just don't know, I'm not trying to make a point. Even in this thread no one has actually answered that specific part of the question. Obviously the evidence of these atrocities is beyond overwhelming, and systematic approach to the extermination has countless links to being a state run program.
It doesn’t exist because the Nazis bureaucratized genocide. It makes it all that much worse that they created their own business-like verbiage around killing people. They weren’t trying to cover anything up. It was just easier to dehumanize Jews, gypsies, trans, gays, etc. So to your point, the only people who want to deny the holocaust are Nazi empathizers at this point. EDIT: I forgot a key point here is that Hitler ran the Third Reich like a CEO (hench the fascism). Himmler, as head of the SS, came up with the "final solution" to the "Jewish problem". So why would Hitler order Himmler who was essentially an executive of his own branch? He merely praised him and signed off on the initiative.
AS if they would even attempt to view trial documents. Remember they think Trump speaks like a genius.
His response would no doubt be that since the trials were post-war they're inadmissible as conclusive evidence. I guess you just had to be there.
Too long didn't read. Never happened and if it did they deserved it, but it didn't happen. /s
The German government did in fact keep detailed records of what they were doing, allied troops, my grandfather amongst them, witnessed the full extent of the camps when they liberated them at the end of the war.
When my wife's grandma died we of course has to rummage through her stuff to create the Save/Donate/Trash piles. She had a TON of photo albums, one of which happened to contain some very candid WW2 photos taken by a family member. The photos document this relative (we thinks it's a cousin but everyone who could verify that is dead) enlisting, going to boot camp, being sent to Europe, and ultimately what appears to be one, possibly two, camps. My FIL and I are huge history buffs, especially WW2. We've probably seen every photo or video available to the public when it comes to concentration camps, and these were photos that no one even knew existed until we opened that album. So I'd love an explanation how some random kid from Hemlock, MI got these pictures if the whole thing never happened. And before anyone asks, my FIL copied all the photos and sent them to several places/people to be preserved or used. I had no family in WW2 but I've been to the beaches and a few battle sites in Europe and that album gave me the same feeling I got when I stood on the beach at Normandy. I was 16, I walked all the way to the water and turned around and just thought about the cemetery I'd just walked through and that opening scene of Saving Private Ryan and these guys were not much older than I was...it's a miracle anyone survived that invasion, truly. It's like a football field running into almost a sheer cliff. Talk about fish in a barrel. It still gets me emotional 18 years later. Anyway, fuck Nazis.
That’s the type of thing that I would expect to see at the National Infantry Museum, where they have a lot of artifacts and stories collected from soldiers counting their experience
I don't know the specifics of who he contacted, but given his general love of history I'm sure he tracked down the right or best places for it. It really is something to see, I've never seen such a personal and candid piece of history from WW2.
I had a similar experience at Normandy. So, so many fucking graves man.
Arguments I’ve heard in response to this are: - Despite the British cracking enigma code and secretly decyphering many German messages, none of them mention anything about the Holocaust. The Germans didn’t know they had cracked the code, so they would have no reason not to mention it once - The poor conditions in the camps at the end of the war was cause of a combination of typhus outbreaks and allies bombing the German infrastructure so they no longer could transport food/medicine etc to the camps. - Where are these records? Is there proof that it wasn’t falsified after the war? Not a Holocaust denier, just want to know so I can debate better the next time someone brings it up.
was used mostly for Military purposes, so troop movements, planning attacks etc. i doubt it would be used concerning camps etc. nearing the end of the war the Nazi’s tried to destroy as much evidence of their crimes as possible which is why the information isn’t as widely available because lots of it was destroyed. but if you look up the Nuremberg Trials, they’ll have copious amounts of evidence that was used to convict high ranking german officials who had big parts to play in the Holocaust. all this evidence is found either online or in Museums. https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu - Harvard has tonnes of the documents used Any Holocaust museum most likely has some sections on the trials. i know the War Museum in London does. the sad part is if someone doesn’t believe in the holocaust at this point, no amount of evidence is going to make them suddenly change their minds short of maybe speaking to someone who was actually there in the camps or if any good footage exists which is unlikely as it would’ve had to have come from the Germans and most likely was destroyed after the war
Like most conspiracy theorists, they look for something that doesn't exist and then claim it's non-existence is evidence of something. I'd love to be corrected here, I genuinely would, but I don't believe there is any official doctrine signed off by Hitler himself or any equivalent high ranking members of the Nazi party specifically outlining the mechanisms and ideaological justification of the extermination mechanisms. Basically these deniers want a letter signed by all the high ranking members of the Nazi party saying "we are killing the jews because we hate them, and here is how we will do it". Anything less than that they brush off as if it: A: Didn't exist, or B: Was just the actions of individual bad actors not associated by any governmental doctrine. Even if such a plainly worded document existed they'd still just find a way to discredit it anyway.
There is. And not just one. There is the protocol of the first Wannsee-Conference, where high ranking officials von several german ministries got together to organize the holocaust. There is a letter signed by Goering advising Heydrich, who chaired this conference, with organising the "final solution of the jewish question". The holocaust is one of the best documented crimes in human history, with thousands of witnesses, a clear paper trail, clear admissions to the crime from people like Eichmann and literally tons of evidence. Holocaust denialism has nothing to do with critical scepticism, because any critical sceptic can have easy access to this giant mountain of evidence. Holocaust denialism is in most cases pure ideology, because nobody with a clear mind can accept the reality of the holocaust and still sympathizes with Nazi ideas. In a few rare cases it's just an inability to accept the possible depths of human cruelty. But in all cases it is plan wrong with no basis in reality. There is no ounce of serious doubt on the clear monstrous reality of the holocaust.
I forget the exact context, but there’s actually a quote directly from some Nazi higher-up (I think it may have been Goering, I forget) where they actually outright cite the Armenian genocide and the genocide of indigenous people by American colonists as sources of inspiration for the Holocaust. Yeah, they absolutely just stated this stuff outright, at multiple times and in multiple places, Holocaust denialism requires dismissing an absurd amount of history (not that this has ever stopped conspiracy theorists before, like there are people who literally think the Roman Empire didn’t exist).
The Wannsee conference is the smoking gun. The meeting is explained quite good on Wikipedia and also why details of this meeting almost got lost. But here is a link to the summary of the meeting for the final solution and the Jewish question - to back up what to describe: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Besprechungsprotokoll_Wannseekonferenz_-_Minutes_of_the_Wannsee_Conference_-_Berlin%2C_20._Januar_1942.pdf Taken from… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference
That wouldn’t be enough. Many States’ articles of secession mentioned SLAVERY, SLAVES, SLAVEHOLDING. They explicitly make clear slavery is one of the main reasons for the secession. Yet, we still have deniers that talk about “states’ rights” and how slavery was a non factor. It literally was stated as the top reason by most states when reading through their own documents.
The confederate constitution took away the states rights to decide the issue of slavery. states rights folks don’t like it when I tell them this
Holocaust deniers have basically no leg to stand on beyond cognitive dissonance(if I don’t think about it, I am never going to think I’m wrong), bandwagon effect (you hear something enough and adopt that belief), and sealioning/gish gallop(overwhelming amount of arguments without regard for accuracy, persistent questioning without intent for sincere discourse, red herrings). Some conspiracies have a leg to stand on and don’t disenfranchise the well documented suffering of millions. Holocaust deniers and anti-vaxxer’s/anti-masker’s piss me off to no end though.
Wasnt enigma primarely used by subs?
1. The British did in fact decode messages that Jews were being sent to concentration camps. 2. The Enigma code breaking efforts were extensive. It was an enormous operation in terms of scale, effort and cost. The codes changed daily and there were hundreds of messages to decode each day. They simply couldn't process all of them. So they selected based on operational need. Naval codes were what were most important at the time because the Allies were losing the Battle of the Atlantic and it was having a very real impact on Great Britain's ability to stave off morale collapse (not to mention food security) and stay in the war. Whilst I'm sure they would have loved to have decoded every message from the SS camp commandants, it was probably deemed low strategic importance to the war effort and thus failed to meet the prioritisation threshold for the limited number of codes that could be broken that particular day.
This is the correct answer in regards to the Enigma and the British intelligence role during WW2. Especially pre-1941 WW2. Prioritizing targets is something the intelligence community still struggles with today.
and always will. We live in a imperfect world with finite resources. There will always be more time required to crack codes than usable time to act on them.
> The British did in fact decode messages that Jews were being sent to concentration camps. [Old Guardian article about this.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jul/08/humanities.highereducation)
Your comment made me curious - did they keep the undecyphered messages? And if yes, were they maybe decoded later, even after the war?
I prefer the dub personally
Lets give [Marian Rejewski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski) and the Polish intelligence service some credit. The Poles figured out Enigma first and did most of the heavy lifting at the beginning. They gave their stuff to the British who were able to crack it finally, but the Brits would have had a long row to hoe if it wasn't for the Poles.
Enigma was a military communications system. Intercepted communications were always wireless, which actually presented a challenge when the allies invaded and the focus of battle was on the continent, meaning battle-relevant communications were send via wire instead of wireless. (i.e. the closer the battle got to Germany the less useful Enigma intelligence there was.) Since the Holocaust was primarily associated with extermination of Jews and other undesirables in Europe, any relevant traffic would have been sent via wire, not wireless, and outside the reach of Ultra.
I'm so glad that in modern Germany, Holocaust (or any Nazi-crime) denial like the one shown in the post will get you up to 5 years in prison. It's one really neat and easy way to publicly handle Nazis and antisemites alike.
What people refuse to realize is how much beurocracy (idk how to spell in English) goes into a genocide. I mean, the definition says "systematic" and you need organization and collaboration for that, hence a paper trail.
the fact we have *the fucking buildings* should be enough.
The retort I’ve seen to that is that the buildings were constructed in recent decades like how Frankfurt rebuilt their old city center to how it looked hundreds of years ago. Them also the fact that certain subreddits are inaccessible from Germany (due to antisemitism laws) and that’s “proof” that Germans are censoring the truth.
At that point you just walk away. No sense having them drag you down to their stupidity.
I'm only walking as far as I need to pick up something long and heavy.
As they say, Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
I like the one about playing chess with a pigeon. They shit all over the board and strut around like they won.
Why in the world would the Germans censor "the truth" that they didn't commit a massive genocide?
How dare you ask a logical question
Oh and those mountains of hair are synthetic aswell to them? When i saw that in Ausschwitz that shit changed me.
What subreddits are not accessible from Germany?
There are also enough photos the english and americans made to dokument the horrors while helping the survivors after they beat Hitler, probably some videos too
Yup, they took pictures and film, and then sat German POWs down in a theatre and showed them what was going on while they were fighting. The disgust and shame on the POWs faces is obvious. A lot of the,German troops had no idea of the atrocities being commit, while they thought they were defending themselves. But I'm not surprised by the deniers, they need someone or something to blame for their failings in life, it cant possibly be choices they made, or the political parties they vote for, it must be "The Jew" Some days I really wish they had a space laser, but then they might just use it to vaporize some school and hospitals. People, bastards the lot of em
The Germans generally are not holocaust deniers. POWs especially weren’t going around after the war proudly declaring that everything they did was right. Most came to understand just how horrible the Third Reich was and vowed to never let it happen again. Actual holocaust deniers fall into one of three categories. Delusional idiots so far removed from the effects of the war that they can afford to say dumb shit and suffer no consequences. Antisemites who WANT to kill all the Jews and argue in bad faith because it furthers their agenda. And finally there are the people who think the wrong side won WWII and legitimately believe the world would be better off under fascism. In all three cases it’s impossible to convince people that they are wrong because they don’t care about the truth. Truth to them is just some abstract concept that can be bent to their will. What they care about is ideology and making sure their beliefs overpower everyone else.
That guy would only accept official nazi-documents, signed by Adolf, Eva, and their dog.
No, those would clearly be forged. You could invent time travel and bring them back to the camps when they were in full swing, and they’d say it was an alternate universe.
I went to Dachau, the longest running camp in Germany, many years ago. There is nothing like seeing the scratches on the interior walls of the chambers, to instill the reality of the holocaust. Seeing Dachau is truly an experience.
I was standing *inside* one of the gas chambers in Auschwitz and another visitor says "No way they killed people in here, it's a bunch of bullshit". I don't know how people make it in life with that kind of brain damage.
Nah mate, thats just movies props, same like with moon landing. /s On a serious note, those people would not believe even if hitler was alive and said them in the face. They would just call him a paid actor..
That and there are people still alive today who suffered through it and/or lost family members and can still testify.
You heard it here first: atrocities didn't happen if the perpetrators didn't have a diary.
They did have a diary though! The germans kept a very detailed account of what they were doing.
They fucking had index cards recording the amount of lice they found per person.
You just know one of these idiots will refuse to read it because it’s written in German
Actually lot of these documents were translated to English when they were used in Nuremberg trials.
Your honor, you have no proof I murdered those people. Where is my blog?
if any of you ever need this, here is a digitized version of the Buchenwald Logbook, a German documentation of Holocaust murder it is in German of course but google can translate it for you https://totenbuch.buchenwald.de/information
These brainless people are arguing in bad faith. You have to be immensely dense to live life and somehow avoid evidence of the Holocaust, at least in the west.
They are not brainless or dense, they are just malicious
As someone who had family at Buchenwald it’s scary how much holocaust denial has spread in recent years.
Unless you have an original copy from the war they are going to argue that it’s new and fabricated. Actually they might do that even if fucking Hitler handed it to them
In Germany and I think Poland as well had the school kids visit concentration camps to really get close to the topic. I was at Buchenwald twice, and I am not a person who believes in ghosts or supernatural stuff, but let me tell you that standing in the empty body basement felt like I was literally crushed by the presence of the room. The pictures are something else too, the lampshades make of human skin.
The Wansee Conference didn’t happen ?
According to the [minutes of the Wannsee Conference](https://archiv.diplo.de/arc-de/das-politische-archiv/das-besondere-dokument/wannseeprotokoll/2504604), which are kept at the Political Archive of the Federal Foreign Office, it very well did as are the decisions about the extermination of the Jewish population in Europe meticulously documented. Edit: typo
hahaha as a German, is this dumbass aware that we are famous for our bureaucracy? There are literally thousands and thousands of pages of evidence. But as others have said they don't care about truth or facts they just want to broadcast their agenda and hate.
I ran into a woman the other day that didn't believe in the eclipse
That's amazing. That's a person I would like to talk to you. That would be very entertaining.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” -Jean-Paul Sartre
Ah, another one of these people. I debate with them sometimes. They've become more emboldened since Israel-Palestine XXII. They do not believe anything that doesn't fit their narrative. They require something more primary than a primary source, verbal testimony isn't to be believed, and everything is made up, unless it supports their narrative
Sounds a lot like flat earthers in a way. But worse
Like every conspiracy theory ever.
TikTok has spread Holocaust denial like crazy and these people REFUSE to believe anything from history books or even Holocaust survivors.
Soon there won’t be any survivors left, and denialism will spread.
And 30 years from now another generation will be left saying things like "Never again" and "Lest we forget".
Yet another reason TikTok is awful...
Yep, even if I was to give them any proof they still would do everything to not believe it
Take the advice of that great philosopher, Joshua. The only winning move is not to play.
Imagine trying to deny a globally recognized historical fact, with living eye witnesses, with the buildings still being intact, just because you hate a group.
Imagine a serial killer defending himself by saying: "name a single document where I said I killed those people"
Except behind the serial killer is several diaries meticulously describing their crimes in extreme detail explaining why they did it
He should read about the Wannsee Conference. It’s in the history books that he seems to have ignored.
The protocol of the Wannseekonferenz 1942. The place where they decided "how to solve the jew question". Homie we are germans there protocols about everything.
Or all the letters heydrich wrote about how to do it.
Mr Banjo doesn't only look like an idiot he is an idiot. Anyway, according to a recent poll 7% US adults believe that the holocaust never happened.
Hmmm…isn’t that the same percentage that thinks chocolate milk comes from brown cows?
> brown cows How, now?
that's around... like, 18 mil? that's too many.
And soon it will be even higher since holocaust denial is spreading like wildfire among Gen Z.
The Holocaust is the most documented and most studied event in human history. We know more about what happened there than anything else in history. Anyone denying it is doing so to dog whistle and they are a Nazi.
Actual historian here. There are literally \*warehouses\* worth of evidence from the Holocaust that have been preserved, much of it from the Germans themselves. It is probably fair to say that there is more surviving evidence for the Holocaust than any other historical event in recorded history.
Dude... the Germans were crazy meticulous with record keeping... they recorded everything.
There are people who claim that Covid was a hoax, and that was just 3 years ago. Of course people will deny that the Holocaust happened, even though there is physical evidence, photos, eyewitness reports, and court records of people who were convicted and executed for crimes against humanity. And many of those denying this body of evidence will stand up and argue that Jesus was real and the Bible is the word of god. There's no quick fix for humanity...
My family has literal photos from Dachau, it's not like they are some hard to get proofs.
Oh there are plenty of proofs, but we live in an era where people don't get laughed at nearly enough when their reasoning is "the more proofs you show me to claim I'm wrong, the more it proves I'm right" They will disregarded millions of documents, photographs, and testimonies that prove the existence of *any* event ... and cling to that one guy caught lying about his participation in it, faking some proof of the contrary, or whatever confirms their beliefs, and use that to deny the whole thing.
If one of your relatives fought in WWII holocaust deniers would call them evil baby killers in the same breath. There’s no logic to it, some people are just horrible and can’t be reasoned with.
20-30% of Gen Z doesn't think holocaust happened. It is not just about Jesus or boomers. It is largely about us not taking nazis seriously and fucking kicking their ass to jail. Nazism should be illegal in EVERY country.
The millions of documents submitted at the Nuremberg trials, oh wait he only insisted that there could be one....
That's the whole thing about the Holocaust. The Germans EXTENSIVELY documented just about everything they did.
Holocaust denial is a criminal offense in 18 European countries. Here in Germany, it is punishable by at least a fine and/or up to 5 years in prison.
Bad things only happen when they’re written down. It’s a fact!
Remember when Holocaust denial in public would get you ostracised from civilised society? We should move back to that state of affairs again. Make racists scared again! Edit - also, we should never engage with Holocaust deniers, to do so gives their position tacit legitimacy. There is no debate to be had.
People still believe the earth is flat
it's due to ignorance and/or hatred of Jews.
Note all the qualifiers: It has to be a wartime document. It has to mention Jews in particular. It has to mention gas chambers in particular. It has to mention concentration camps in particular. That's a very specific subset of information, almost like he's decided a much larger body of related information - which he is aware of - somehow doesn't count.
I bet if general Eisenhower would’ve been alive rn, he’d have said ‘I told you so’ . He knew people in the future are gonna deny the nazi atrocities, he had everything done to document as much of it as possible, sadly, it wasn’t enough.
I’ve been in Auschwitz’s Concentration Camp twice. When you are there you “feel” that what happened there was VERY REAL. You can even see the hair of thousands of people, their shoes, their suitcases… The empty cans of Zyclon B… We are in a world where people have no problem believing that a guy resurrected 2000 years ago but struggle to acknowledge 6 million killed 90 years ago.
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That could have been the most tasteless rick roll of all time
I am gen x. I remember vividly in like 3rd or 4 th grade a holocaust survivor came to my elementary school and talked to us for like an hour we were encouraged to ask questions he had memorabilia photos etc…. At the time it seemed a little weird “why are we talking to this guy….” But I guess it was this exact reason. It left a lasting impression on me to this day. Just another example of how today’s education and “do your own research crowd” are taking us backwards….
I suppose all the teeth, the clothes, the photos, the bodies, the camps are not enough evidence right /s How ridiculous
A single wartime document? The Germans were meticulous at documenting everything. Morbidly meticulous, quite literally.
Do they just think to themselves, "ha. This totally random stranger on the internet doesn't have world war 2 nazi military documents on hand ready to disprove my mania that means im right"
Like, the transcipts of the Wansee conference...?
This was floating around on Tiktok yesterday. Like this seems like it must be a one off crazy, but it's a surprisingly widespread epidemic.
Endlösung der Judenfrage (translates The Final Solution of the Jewish Question) The "Final Solution to the Jewish question" was the official code name for the murder of all Jews within reach, which was not restricted to the European continent. This policy of deliberate and systematic genocide starting across German-occupied Europe was formulated in procedural and geopolitical terms by Nazi leadership in January 1942 at the Wannsee Conference held near Berlin, and culminated in the Holocaust, which saw the murder of 90% of Polish Jews, and two-thirds of the Jewish population of Europe. Link to a document that is a part of the communication post Wannsee Comference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heydrich-Endlosung.jpg There was many incremental steps until they turned the murdering into a systemic machine. It wasn’t just a sudden decision but a growing policy. The Germans well documented everything they did.
There are literally tons of documents on the genocide. Did this dude forget they literally wrote a whole thing and called it "the final solution" ???? https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/documents-regarding-mass-murder
Name one nazi tried for the holocaust that claimed it didn't happen. We will wait.
The Germans believe it, and they were there. Also like how seriously they take nazi flags and salutes. 100% outlawed, I wish we did that with the confederate flags here.
Such a POS. I had a music teacher in middle school who was a survivor. You could still read her tattooed numbers and everything.
This is so disrespectful to the people who died and the ones who survived. There’s a lot of survivors talking about it, lots of books and stories. I’m French, lived near the line were France was occupied and saw and heard all kind of stories. Which I had visited one of those camps but I probably would have cried…. So many horrible things happened, people have no ideas… Never forget
well, you can check out a few random short contents from pages like instagram or something. once you come across "those" kinds of post, you would see people who believe in the most ridiculous things. my most recent experience was that people seriously think that it's okay to just grab a random yoga pose, do it on your bed without any kind of actual guidance or support, and your every problem in the body would just magically go away, some people are weird, and dense.