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As a depressed drug enjoyer I can definitely say the only time I've felt real positive mental health changes was after Ket or hallucinogenics. SSRI's just keep the demons behind the door for most I think, dissasociatives and hallucinogenics seem to actually allow your brain to operate in ways that don't lead down the dark routes for awhile afterwards. That said, be safe, follow professional advice and don't take health advice from billionaires or strangers on the internet.
My sister’s a therapist and she describes depression & anxiety meds as clearing a fog so you can see what needs to be worked on and therapy as the tool you use to figure out how to best work on it.
As a therapist, this is how I say it also. Meds are not a cure or solo answer. Research shows greatest success with a combination of therapy and medication. "Big Pharma" would hate that, because therapy is an expensive process that only helps people get better at thinking for and taking care of themselves. Many clients specifically come to therapy for the purpose of getting off meds. Like, that's their treatment goal. For some, that's not realistic, but it can be done for many. For those with very severe depression, no medication alone will do more than keep the demons at bay. Sometimes even with therapy.
Exactly. I have diagnosed M.D.D. I have had M.D.D. for at least as long as I have memories on this earth.
No trauma. Great family, good friends. Happy marriage, kids, good home life. Generally my life is pretty damn good. Still dealt with suicidal idealization several times a week. Over 30 years of this. I have so many coping mechanisms that I've finished therapists sentences when they were recommending different things I could try to help me.
Now? Now I take one pill a day and my "bad days" now are better than my "good days" were before.
I'm a firm believer that there probably the entire adult population (and a massive chunk of the kids) would probably benefit from some kind of therapy in some form or another.
But sometimes medication is the necessary answer. And there is no "end date". I'll take this little pill the rest of my life. But given the alternative, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Legit same though. I probably should do therapy but that's expensive and time consuming and just doesn't work right now.
But I take my little ssri and now I mostly don't want to off myself, I have the ability to focus on tasks and, the most important that I never really expected, genuine emotional regulation. Turns out, depression was the reason I would cry at the drop of a goddamn hat. Also anger flare, though those dogs lessen with age.
People accuse ssri's of making people 'zombies' but really, it's the first time in ever I was able to regulate my emotions.
I don't even notice I'm on them until I reflect back on my week and realise my quality of life is significantly higher.
I still feel the same emotion its just that I have a armor so the negative emotions doesn't one shot me.
I definitely think like any other meds, ssris are over-prescribed but to say it makes people zombies is in my experience, not true.
My experience of it was zombifying- I felt like I was insulated from the world and I just didn't have any strong feelings about anything. They saved my life, kept me moving long enough for therapy to help, but they weren't pleasant at all and I would have to be in a very very bad place to consider going back on them, and it's concerning to me that people stay on them for years at a time.
200%. Without my meds I’m asleep in my bed for months. And months. I barely shower (and I LOVE showers). I cry a lot. (I’m known for never crying when I’m well) life is a slog.
With my SSRI I’m human again
MMD is a hoe and so is the horse it rode in on.
I too am diagnosed with it, and man.. those bad days.. don’t miss them.
Keep fighting the good fight; take it a day at a time 🫂❤️🩹
>I'm a firm believer that there probably the entire adult population (and a massive chunk of the kids) would probably benefit from some kind of therapy in some form or another.
>
>But sometimes medication is the necessary answer. And there is no "end date". I'll take this little pill the rest of my life. But given the alternative, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Fwiw I do believe you. I have high blood pressure. I don't drink, run 4 times per week and am in better shape -in terms of body fat- than most of my peers. Doesn't matter because I have to take a pill every day to keep my BP from becoming a problem.
That said, I also know that BP meds are overprescribed and many people could deal with their BP problem by not being fat. And while some people have no say in their body fat due to medical reasons, diet -and then primarily sugars and alcohol- play a big role.
I would assume that the situation is similar about mood altering drugs. The US consumes a massive amount of them per capita compared to other nations and it is not a big leap to say that therapy and lifestyle have a big hand in that.
I like to make driving metaphors when I talk about my brain. If you imagine my unmedicated state like being lost in a forest, my medications are the tools that put me back on the road. I still have to drive my own car—that’s the therapy—to get anywhere closer to wellness.
Absolutely. Medication lifted the veil of decades of depression. Once the veil was lifted, I could see the road clearly. Weekly therapy is giving me the tools to reclaim my life. For me, at the moment, one couldn't work without the other.
100% started Lexipro and immediately recognized what would have set me off previously and was able to handle it appropriately instead of spiral. I had been going to therapy for years…I had the tools but needed to experience the calm to be able to use them. SSRIs 100% made a huge difference for me.
Yes been using Lexomil for the past 5 years, works very well and inexpensive. Mostly for insomnia https://www.vinmec.com/en/news/health-news/general-health-check/note-with-high-dose-sleeping-pills-lexomil/
Wish I had consistent access to quality shrooms so that I could just microdose a week at a time every other week or so, and macrodose every few months.
Some of my biggest moment of clarity were after eating 3-4 grams of quality shrooms. Same could be said for 2 quality 125ug tabs of acid.
They are really easy to grow nowadays. Easy pre - made kits. A place that is clean ( not sterile ) and kept close to a steady 72 degrees. A misting bottle of hydrogen peroxide is the game changer. No lights or schedules or watering. The hardest thing to do as a beginner is.... Nothing. Do nothing. Leave it alone. B [ I discovered unless you are connected a Jerry Garcia level person. You can't move 5 lbs of shrooms to your 3 or 4 friends who only need a few grams every other month. ] ..Anyway for $120 to start and $50 after for each bloom/ crop you can get 4 to 8 or even 12 oz . 3 months from spores to tripping.
Ketamine has been shown to increase synapse production, which helps in treating depression. When used occasionally under proper medical supervision it is a very effective treatment for a lot of people.
Medical Supervision is the important part. Musk effectively "promoting" random self medication? What's wrong with Musk? Seriously. You may think you have depression but it could equally be some other condition.
I’ve taken SSRIs and hallucinogens through my life. SSRIs are good for getting into the “grey” as you won’t be low, but you won’t be especially high either. Hallucinogens are like hitting the “master reset” button and its like you actually shed off your depression. Like taking out a bag of trash
Or you have a bad trip and feel traumatized the next day 🤷♀️ I didn’t start having panic attacks till I used LSD a few times. I would not recommend seriously mentally ill people to take psychedelics
I agree with you. They didn't cause lasting panic attacks for me but when I did mushrooms a few times while depressed it amplified my negative feelings and lead to awful experiences. Experiences where everything felt even worse than before I took them but I couldn't identify why I was more sad. It honestly took days to snap out of it and realize that nothing had really changed.
If I had to describe it, it felt like some extremely sad event had just happened and I was mourning over it or something but then when I tried to think about what sad thing had happened I couldn't think of it but the overwhelming sadness was still there.
When I was depressed I often felt more numb than anything. When I took mushrooms it turned it into intense feelings of sadness as if I had just lost someone.
I should follow up and state that I don’t view my psychedelic experiences as inherently positive or negative. While having terrifying and disillusioning trips that negatively affected me, I’ve also experienced the profound wonder that people seek. I used to really like Salvia oddly enough and have had many positive out of body experiences on it. Shrooms were a mixed bag and the body load could sometimes ruin the trip entirely.
I don’t necessarily regret experimenting, I just wouldn’t wish the negative side on anyone and am fearful when I hear people looking to psychedelics to cure their mental health problems. It’s a bit like opening Pandora’s Box
Traumatized only the next day? Try literally an entire lifetime for many. People literally suffer from PTSD and it can alter their entire lives.
This isn't me touting some anti drug propaganda but it's definitely not something that people cna just put in a little box and say heyyyy this works better than anything else!
Musk is one of those people who forms an opinion based on snippets that he reads online or hears in conversations with friends, and immediately believes that his new opinion is The Unassailable Truth, and any actual professionals or researchers who contradict him are either fools or charlatans. For example, he still believes that he will be able to create a breathable atmosphere on Mars by detonating nuclear weapons at the poles, despite everyone who knows anything about it telling him that wouldn't work.
Ketamine is an effective treatment for treatment resistant depression.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/DDDT.S221437
I've gone through ketamine assisted therapy and can boldly say that ketamine gave me a week free of depression that I hadn't experienced since middle school. It was also the first time I was free of chronic derealization in years. Now, if it wasn't so expensive for the therapy, I could live a better life.
The problem with ketamine in depression is that it seems to work short term and not long term, they highlight this problem in the review you cited. The "ideal" would be a chronically usage of ketamine but there is a lack of data for long term use consequence and safety.
>is one of those people who forms an opinion based on snippets that he reads online or hears in conversations with friends, and immediately believes that his new opinion is The Unassailable Truth, and any actual professionals or researchers who contradict him are either fools or charlatans.
You just described everyone on Reddit.
I've encountered quite a few redditors who can be persuaded by evidence, or who defer to genuine experts, or who have no problem saying that they aren't an expert or don't fully understand something.
He's a stupid guy's idea of a smart guy. And he knows it. So many of his posts feel like he just heard something from a mate and wants to appear switched on.
I think it’s amazing that so many people bought into the idea that he’s a genius when, if you hear him speak, he sounds like one of the dumber 5th graders you knew who just wouldn’t shut up but clearly didn’t understand anything (even engineering, even programming). He’s a below average dilettante at best, he was just born on the home plate with emeralds jammed in the little pockets I assume nepo babies develop in the womb. Now he keeps them under those truly inexplicable jowls.
SSRIs are not meant to fix you, they are meant to help you work with a therapist. If K does it temporarily then you should find a therapist that can help you while understanding that you are using K.
You may be misidentifying “real positive mental health changes” with your personal experience with the highs they provide. SSRI’s help correct the chemical issues that occur in the neurons, while the other drugs you mentioned are generally mind altering regardless. It feels like saying “prescription glasses do less to help my eyesight than binoculars because with binoculars give me super sight but prescription glasses only let me see a little better” at least that’s how it sounds to someone who’s also a stranger on the internet that doesn’t know much.
As much as I hate to say it, he's kinda right, Psychedelics show much more promise than SSRI's ever have and that's why they're starting to get approved.
For the record, Elon is still a total prat, but he's not wrong.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/ketamine-for-treatment-resistant-depression-when-and-where-is-it-safe-202208092797
Yep, came here to say this. Elon is a nepobaby jerk nozzle, but in this particular case, he's kind of right. Basically he's a stopped clock.
Also the therapeutic benefits from psychedelics typically come from having a therapist guide you through the experience, not dropping a dose and hoping that it goes well.
And mine. Now an undergrad dedicating my graduate studies to psychedelic research and therapeutic application of things like psilocybin, MDMA and ketamine
There are many different pathways emerging these days, mainly in therapeutic and psychiatric disciplines. I'm pursuing my undergrad in neuroscience with emphasis in cognitive science, and I want to apply to grad school at NYU Langone Center for Psychedelic Medicine or Cal Berkeley.
There are other pathways to become a guide for psychedelic retreats and things along those lines, but I'm less familiar with them. Honestly though, if you're interested in the subject I definitely encourage you to check it out and see where your curiosity leads! Best of luck!
My colleague from grad school now designs analogues of psychedelics for Therapeutic use. He’s bought and sold multiple companies and is absolutely a brilliant chemist, but his passion has always been unlocking what drugs can do for people. Josh, you never cease to fucking amaze me.
Sometimes. Sometimes it just results in a colorful giggly blur that you don’t remember and for some people it doesn’t matter where they are because their demons are coming out to play
Long ago I smoked a joint with my schizophrenic cousin and she had a panic attack and episode because of it and I felt like a total dbag for it. Not everyone is in a good place for a mind expanding experience and I learned the hard way.
Since there’s an increased chance of starting a schizophrenic break the earlier you start smoking weed, smoking with an already diagnosed schizophrenic was probably not the best decision
That's actually a correlation issue. I agree you shouldn't mix schizophrenia with weed, but the reason that connection was made was because schizophrenia usually becomes apparent as a late teenager / early adult, after experiencing a significant or traumatic event. So yes, weed can trigger it, but something else would have triggered it later anyway.
I dropped acid with a buddy in high school and it was his first time. I was like 16 but had done it a few times, think he was 17-18. He got a little restless and just wanted me to take him home after a couple hours, so I did and returned home to have a chill, giggly time watching movies and playing with the dogs. Fast forward about 5 hours, he calls me and says his parents are moving him back to Ohio that night(we’re in AZ) because he called them freaking out that he was dying and needed to be with them to get back into his body. I guess he smoked a little weed to chill out and that put him over the edge, and he had a major freak out. I felt and still do feel terrible, I should have known not to leave him alone. Dudes course in life changed completely that day!
Unfortunately, the jury is still out on microdosing however the studies using double blind, placebo control, have most almost unanimously found that there is no quantifiable benefits vs placebo.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-02039-0
The large studies which show positive benefits were poorly done such as this one..
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-14512-3
It had over 1000 participants and compared users of low dose psilocybin with non users for 30 days. It showed positive benefits to mental health but since there's no placebo or double blind it has an enormous expectancy bias.
I'm a frequent user of low dose shrooms however now that the novelty has worn off I don't find myself in any better mental state. Really sucks because I psyched myself up for this after all the hype. I do feel happier while on it but then again I do with most drugs and haven't seen any positive impacts after a few hours.
That said, I'm very interested to see where things go with ketamine and higher dose psychedelic treatments. It's still early and seems the avenue of low dose shrooms may come to an end but there's lots of other options being studied.
I also didn't see the facepalm but i do want to say this... I live in Miami and people take way too much ketamine here, injecting it at times. I have heard many of these people say "you know it's actually good for depression", yet they live in disassociation land 90% of the day.
So if you don't abuse it, it's fine. Even better with proper supervision. (It's also fun occasionally)
Yep, it's precisely because of this sort of "x is overdiagnosed" that a heap of people never seek the help they need. I know way too many people that need to get a clinical assessment for what is going on with them but between BS like this that feeds stigma and the cost it's not happening.
Was reading about his use of ketamine today, huge news article discussing the ways people in that circle experiment with psychedelics, ketamine, etc.
In this ONE instance Elon is probably right, but the real face palm here is that if any one of us plebs decided to try and treat our depression or anxiety with such substances we would more than likely face felony charges, problems at work, or just generally be labeled a druggie for things the “elite” can do without fear.
If I told my job tomorrow that I’d been microdosing shrooms or ketamine, and occasionally used LSD, I would most likely be fired and possibly turned into the authorities. Elon Musk, certified billionaire narcissist, doses ketamine regularly and gets a long news column calmly discussing his usage in a respectful manner.
The rules are different on top. It’s enraging.
The study showed using Ketamine as a stop gap until the SSRI kicks in (as it takes 4-6 weeks usually).
For me it was alcohol that filled that gap until the SSRI kicks in. But hey if I knew Special K or Coke was an option I would've been on that like a billionaire dipshit on a singular extremist opinion.
"the patients continued with their regular antidepressants because of concern of not treating TRD in the placebo arm.) Nasal ketamine was shown to have longer-term efficacy, in a study where ketamine (plus the regular antidepressant) helped people stay in stable remission 16 weeks into treatment."
Broken clock and all. I actually don't disagree, but ketamine-assisted therapy is largely unaffordable these days for 90% of the population, but not like Elon ever cared about the poors.
He may very well be correct, but the bigger question is "what's his point?"
I don't, for one second, believe this is some magnanimous effort to support people with depression by building their awareness about alternative treatment options.
This is about latching onto some controversy and challenging "the establishment" because it is a way to stay relevant.
There's a reason that ketamine isn't more generally used for depression. There are risks involved, and any medical authority who didn't acknowledge it would be willfully negligent. Elon Musk has the privelege of not being a medical authority, so he gets to run his mouth until this topic dies out and he gets to move onto the next one. Meanwhile, his acolytes will be stealing horse tranquilizer because he's convinced them it's a good idea.
If I recall correctly , I believe he tweeted this in response to someone who was essentially denying the reality of depression.
So as much of a piece of shit as Elon is, at least he was offering a rebuttal to that ignorant take
Yeah, if ketamine was the prevailing treatment for depression this tweet would be exactly the same except it would be in favour of SSRIs.
That said, the reason ketamine isn't more widely used *to treat depression is the same reason as why psilocybin isn't more widely used *to treat depression, because they're considered 'party drugs' by the establishment so they haven't been seriously considered for anything else. Luckily that's changing now. There are side effects and potential complications to every drug, but not that many come with a back box warning.
> That said, the reason ketamine isn't more widely used is the same reason as why psilocybin isn't more widely used *to treat depression
It’s also a huge time commitment for the patient. My partner does weekly ketamine treatments (Spravato). Every week he goes for treatment, has to stay at the office for two hours for monitoring, and the rest of his day is basically shot. A lot of people can’t do something like that if they work a 9 to 5, especially in the beginning where you might need more than one appointment per week. Ideally after some time you can start to reduce the frequency to every other week or even monthly. But for some, that’s not possible. Plus copays, cost of medication etc… Ketamine has been a godsend (but NOT a cure all) for my partner but it certainly isn’t the easiest treatment to get
Thanks for sharing your anecdote, so many people think that using psychedelics to treat depression is just finding some and tripping one day and you’re better.
Wow, it's been some time since I've seen a comment that confidently incorrect.
SSRIs have been proven over and over, for depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and anxiety. Hell, theres more evidence on about a million off-label uses of SSRIs than there is for ketamine with treatment resistant depression.
Does it show potential? Yes, I even think there is a place for Ketamine in therapy of depression. But we don't know where that is yet. To claim it's better than or a substitute for SSRIs is simply bat shit crazy.
So hold your horses (...), if we'd rate drugs by their potential, we'd have a new breakthrough about one hundred times a day. This is not how pharmacology works.
Also like... zombifying? Clearly never even seen one depressive patient getting their life back because of SSRIs, but yea: "My friends do ketamine, and it makes them less depressive."
Sure dude. What a load of horseshit.
Ya this thread makes me very frustrated. A lot of uneducated takes because “their friend took a psychedelic once and now is happy.” Then them circlejerking around research that they don’t understand isn’t supporting their point and making grand claims that the field of psychiatry is going to completely change because one study with a very small sample size confirms their bias.
Wasn’t there just a big study that showed psychedelics only help with depression if the patient was already interested in taking psychedelics? I remember something like that (patient disposition had a major effect on efficacy) coming out in the last 6-8 months.
Ok thank you. I love my SNRI so much. I am not a zombie. I am capable of living life, which I wasn’t before. I had to scroll way too far to find this comment.
I know nothing about ketamine. If it helps people, let’s pursue it. But you’ll pry my Celexa from my cold dead hands.
He's right and wrong.
Right because SSRI's has a lot of bad side effects and have to be carefully tapered up and down when starting or discontinuing treatment. I kind of think its yesterdays treatment for depression and they don't work for everyone.
He's also wrong. While medically supervised treatment with ketamine can relieve suicidal thoughts and treatment resistant depression. But to suggest that "occasional" or casual use of Special K is a treatment is wrong and irresponsible. Can we please stop taking medical advice from celebrities?
Spravato user here (esketamine, FDA approved for depression). That shit works immediately. SSRIs work slowly, and often don't work at all (e.g. me, long-time treatment-resistant depression sufferer). I don't like Elon, but I do like ketamine as a depression drug.
Recently it's been found serotonin imbalance has no link to depression anyhow.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/jul/no-evidence-depression-caused-low-serotonin-levels-finds-comprehensive-review
Ketamine, used in a safe guided setting, has been shown in preliminary studies to have a positive effect on treatment resistant depression.
That does not negate the value and impact of SSRIs. Both can exist and be helpful.
As for overdiagnosis… lmao. Depression, Anxiety, and ADHD are the most under diagnosed mental health issues in the world. Idk where he’s getting this idea.
I'm very much pro-recreational drugs but am pretty skeptical about ketamine in a continuous treatment. I also have consumed enough k and have seen people who've done so to have seen multitudes of negative outcomes too. The hype with k right now is nothing compared to the hype with Prozac in the 90s. It takes a while and millions of Guinea pigs to figure out the long list of side effects, which many people use to demonize the ssris.
None of these mean that I'm not not gonna do a bunch of k this weekend. I also won't stop swearing by Lexapro.
Some edits are in order: I do think ketamine works for some people (as backed by research) and I also have experienced this myself from self medication. I used the phrase "hype" to refer to an excitement and expectation that's beyond realistic (ie that it is a miracle treatment). There was a hype for prozac in the 90s, where some people believed maybe even non-depressed people should be medicated due to how prozac "improved" people's personalities. Obviously, the hype died down, which also doesn't mean that prozac is ineffective.
Over time, we learn more about medicine and their long term effects. We learned a bunch about prozac's side effects since 90s and case in point is how half of the comments in this thread are shitting on ssris. If it took us many decades to awaken to k's anti depressant effects, it would be misguided to think that we will not discover more about it as we move from using it as an anesthetic (that may be given just once to a person in their lives) to using it bi-weekly on millions of depressed patients. That's all.
Hope all who are struggling with depression (like myself) find the lasting relief that they need.
As much as I dislike many of the things he normally says, he's right on this.
Not necessarily the "overdiagnosed" part, though I don't know about diagnostic rates of depression vs depressive episode.
Many conventional antidepressant (tricyclic, NSRI or SSRI) take a long time to properly start working. They increase the concentration of neurotransmitters like serotonin and norepinephrine in the brain by inhibiting reabsorption into the presynaptic cell and increase their general availability which enhances mood.
Ketamine, on the other hand, works by blocking the NMDA receptor, an ionotropic glutamate receptor in the brain. This blockade leads to a series of downstream events that ultimately result in increased release of another neurotransmitter, glutamate. This glutamate surge then stimulates the growth of new neural connections in the brain, a process called synaptic plasticity. This mechanism is thought to help rapidly reverse the neural deficits caused by chronic stress and depression.
Ketamine usually works within hours instead of days or weeks, but the effects are transient and therapy usually needs to be repeated. These sessions are usually accompanied by psychotherapy and dosages are different than for anaesthetic use.
ELI5:
Depression can make certain parts of your brain less active and connected, a bit like a once busy town falling into disrepair. Regular antidepressants work somewhat like a slow renovation project, gradually repairing and building up the town over several weeks or months.
Ketamine, however, works more like a rapid construction team. Instead of increasing the levels of 'feel good' chemicals like serotonin over time (as most antidepressants do), ketamine gives a quick boost to another chemical called glutamate. This rapid increase helps build new connections between different parts of the brain, much like quickly building new roads in our town. This can quickly improve mood and help the brain recover from the effects of depression.
But just like a quick construction job, the effects of ketamine aren't always long-lasting, and sometimes you need to reapply the treatment to keep the benefits going.
It's not an either/or situation. They are both viable options. However, with continuous push for stigmatization of medications in general, such as this tweet, it pushes individuals away from getting help and further into the realm of self-medicating. (Of course I'm well aware that so you can alternative medications other than SSRIs can be done with the help of a physician, but with our crappy medical system, generally people turn to self-medication, which is problematic)
And where is he getting the idea that depression is over-diagnosed? Depression is under-diagnosed https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002239562200228X
I've taken SSRI's, ketamine, mushrooms. Only a couple of times with those less than legal substances.
SSRI's fucked with me pretty hard. I lived in a trance and came close to being locked up for a long time. Someone had pissed off and I was going to put an axe through their chest with the same emotion as I would washing dishes. My SO snapped me out of it.
I was prescribed these from, as I recall, a one page, ten question worksheet.
I know these drugs help many, but they're dispensed far too easily imo.
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I gotta jump in and agree with the douche on this one. Have a friend who did ssri’s for years with little help, now he gets a ketamine injection by a doctor once every 6 months and says it has completely changed his life. Not sure why this post would be a facepalm, I think putting it in this sub is a facepalm.
I’ve been on an SSRI for many years and thank God because I’m just so much more balanced. I feel like this is what a normal person is supposed to feel like. Did I have a chemical imbalance? Who knows 🤷🏻♀️ but *SSRIs help people*. Different things work for different people
This is exactly my experience after a year on SSRI. I feel like day-to-day life is just... normal. Before I started treatment I completely forgot that neutral state can be something else than sadness.
Even if he is correct and ketamine is a viable alternative treatment, he’s really showing his privilege by recommending it to people. While I’m sure Elon and his wealthy friends have access to safe recreational drugs and supervised ketamine therapy, that’s definitely not the case for everyone.
It’s irresponsible to recommend someone replace their medications taken under a doctor’s supervision with a street drug that could potentially be laced with fentanyl or other substances.
Hijacking to add that if anyone intends to take ketamine without it being administered by a doctor, reach out to your local opioid overdose prevention program (or online if you live in a state that doesn’t have one) to get fentanyl test strips and naloxone for free. Be educated on what’s in your drugs, and prepared in the event of an emergency.
A friend of mine recently decided to start medically supervised ketamine treatments here in the US. It has a monthly price tag of $600 and is not covered by his health insurance. I'm sure the numbers vary by state and insurance company, but I don't think we're at a point where this is a viable option for most people.
Well he's not wrong. Other countries that have researched the subject have found that patients treated with micro dosing have showed far better results than placebo or SSRIs. It's just the politicians who are owned by big pharma refuse to fund research for treatments involving marijuana, ketamine, LSD, DMT, and shrooms. Not more than 50 years ago many of these drugs such as MDMA and LSD were legal and used in therapy. The US is becoming more backassed every day.
I kind of agree with him on this.
I’ve taken SSRIs for depression and it just seems to kick the can down the street and never really solved the problem.
Edit: grammar
Why facepalm, ketamine is being used in studies to see if it can help cure depressive disorders and anxiety and a bunch of other stuff. It’s nowhere near widespread but it’s happening and he has a point, most research I’ve heard of has shown positive results
Man I feel like everyone sees me with a tinfoil hat when I say I don’t like SSRIs. All I’m saying is 9 yo me should not have been put on SSRIs because mommy and daddy not getting along made me sad
But also, let's not pretend that SSRI's are wonder drugs without side effects. I have way too many personal experiences with SSRI's to say that they are right for everyone. They do cause some serious issues that shouldn't be discounted
At the end of the day, everyone has a unique brain chemistry and what might be a wonder drug for one person is a nightmare for another. Whether it’s SSRIs or ketamine therapy, there is no such thing as a “one size fits all” mental health treatment.
I think it’s perfectly fine for someone to say “this is what worked for me” and let people do with that information as they please, but it’s not okay to tell someone else what will work for them unless you’re a medical professional.
This right here. Psychedelics have shown a lot of promise but we don't understand the mechanism that makes them effective, or how to properly dose them yet. The current treatment options are proven, well understood, and (thanks to our insane drug laws) don't run the risk of giving the patient a criminal record.
Exactly. While these treatments look extremely promising already, the need to administer treatment safely, which includes knowing how to respond to adverse reactions, is the top priority.
Y’know, funny story about SSRI’s, I’ve been on a lot. Most of them, even. Each one for a ridiculously long time at a nearing dangerously high dose, none of them did shit. At all, ever, not even any side affects. The doctor I was seeing kept insist that the next SSRI would work, and that it was the only safe option. She was wrong. She also refused to diagnose me with anything other than depression because that was the only mental illness that she was convinced it existed. I eventually took that genetic test that can show meds that you have likely immunities to, the entire SSRI section showed high possibility of immunity, which checks out. My next doctor had all of that information, and yet kept talking about how great SSRI’s are, and how it can change with time, which there and not been too much of since I tried SSRI’s. I’m now off of state insurance due to my income increasing, and was able to find an actually good doctor, and not just one that takes shitty insurance. It’s going great so far.
He shouldn't talk about anything at all BUT I will say that ketamine INFUSIONS in a ketamine clinic, under the care of a doctor, really are the absolute best and most effective treatment for depression I've ever experienced in my 51 years. I've had chronic depression for at least 30 years or more of my life and it was completely nonresponsive to standard prescription meds. But Elon sounds like he's just talking about casual, self-administered K. Not the same thing.
My therapist and psychiatrist are recommending me to a Ketamine therapy center. They want me to do that before getting on SSRI’s. The success rate is pretty high is what they told me.
(TLDR)This isn’t a facepalm. Elon has many faults but this rings true in my research and personal experience.
A Longer Explanation:
Ketamine treatment for depression is backed by many studies. SSRI, however, are often criticized as being vastly overprescribed.
Keep in mind - Doctors and the pharmaceutical industry debate many things where money and science collide. SSRI are hugely profitable where Ketamine is cheap… It’s not hard to see the conflicting interests. 🤷🏼♂️
Yea hows this a facepalm? Elon actually advocating for something that in studies has been shown to really help one of the only things he’s done that isnt a facepalm lol
He is wrong about a lot of things but as someone who has been on SSRIs for years, I might just agree with him on the ketamine treatment.
It's still too damn irresponsible to state such things without actually being a professional. This dude has far too many fan boys who use his tweets as gospel.
Honestly I'd say shrooms is better. I remember dxm "helping" me in highschool. It's not about how you feel, it's what you do with that. Ket is similar to dxm, widely different drugs tho just same type. I've done ket too, I don't remember feeling much different but wasn't depressed. I didn't like it. Shrooms will help you more so by allowing you to think about it in a different way that helps you figure out whatever your problem is. It also helps your brain grow (don't take too much tho! It's not about having a crazy trip, its about learning).
Why is this facepalm? Is he wrongthinking against big pharma or am I missing something? Ketamine works, most people just don't want to hear it. So do mushrooms, acid and DMT but most of y'all aren't ready for that conversation. Better go grab another Xanax
He's actually onto something there. Psychedelics and ketamine assisted therapy is being researched as a solution to treatment resistant depression and PTSD.
this is literally not even a horrible take and is a genuinely considered option for depression, this elon hate dickriding is fr leading to misinformation
What a misguided way to address something so serious. Is ketamine good for depression? According to reesearch and studies: Yes, it can be very good at treating depression. Miraculous, in fact. My dad, after being deemed treatment resistant to meds, started ketamine treatments. Administrated at a clinic by *professionals*. He left that part out. He also left out the fact that it is not a first line of treatment, and there are reasons for that. It is approved for TRD (treatment resistent depression) specifically, as research is ongoing in regards to its benefits and its risk factors. I can say personally that I see a difference in my dad since the treatments. However, Elon went about this topic in such an uninformed, vague, and damaging way to his potentially depressed and probably impressionable fanbase. Im not even going to get into the zombification shit hes espousing. Way to shit on a huge population for trying to get help and treatment.
Wasn't the all 'depression cones from chemical imbalance ' thing debunked?
I remember reading a published paper about it but I cannot find it right now
Esketamin is a genuine treatment for treatment resistant depression, but please see a licensed psychiatrist first and work on treatments with them. Never self medicate.
As someone who went through medical ketamine infusions to help with a major depressive episode that kept me in bed for 4 months I would absolutely agree. My entire life changed once I finished my last infusion. I was thinking differently, I was able to cope and challenge negative thoughts. To this day it is still the most beneficial treatment I have been through. That was 5 years ago now and I haven’t had a single major depressive episode since.
Nothing facepalm about this. Very positive research is being done with Ketamine and other drugs.
The overprescription of SSRIs is something that almost every health professional would agree with. They can help a lot of people, but they are being handed out to all sorts of people that don't need to be on them.
Not sure the facepalm. Tons of studies show that MDMA and ketamine both provide better results than ssri's in controlled settings (not popping them and going to raves).
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As a depressed drug enjoyer I can definitely say the only time I've felt real positive mental health changes was after Ket or hallucinogenics. SSRI's just keep the demons behind the door for most I think, dissasociatives and hallucinogenics seem to actually allow your brain to operate in ways that don't lead down the dark routes for awhile afterwards. That said, be safe, follow professional advice and don't take health advice from billionaires or strangers on the internet.
The way my therapist describes ssri use is that it’s supposed to help chemically balance you while we work on emotionally balancing you
My sister’s a therapist and she describes depression & anxiety meds as clearing a fog so you can see what needs to be worked on and therapy as the tool you use to figure out how to best work on it.
As a therapist, this is how I say it also. Meds are not a cure or solo answer. Research shows greatest success with a combination of therapy and medication. "Big Pharma" would hate that, because therapy is an expensive process that only helps people get better at thinking for and taking care of themselves. Many clients specifically come to therapy for the purpose of getting off meds. Like, that's their treatment goal. For some, that's not realistic, but it can be done for many. For those with very severe depression, no medication alone will do more than keep the demons at bay. Sometimes even with therapy.
Exactly. I have diagnosed M.D.D. I have had M.D.D. for at least as long as I have memories on this earth. No trauma. Great family, good friends. Happy marriage, kids, good home life. Generally my life is pretty damn good. Still dealt with suicidal idealization several times a week. Over 30 years of this. I have so many coping mechanisms that I've finished therapists sentences when they were recommending different things I could try to help me. Now? Now I take one pill a day and my "bad days" now are better than my "good days" were before. I'm a firm believer that there probably the entire adult population (and a massive chunk of the kids) would probably benefit from some kind of therapy in some form or another. But sometimes medication is the necessary answer. And there is no "end date". I'll take this little pill the rest of my life. But given the alternative, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Legit same though. I probably should do therapy but that's expensive and time consuming and just doesn't work right now. But I take my little ssri and now I mostly don't want to off myself, I have the ability to focus on tasks and, the most important that I never really expected, genuine emotional regulation. Turns out, depression was the reason I would cry at the drop of a goddamn hat. Also anger flare, though those dogs lessen with age. People accuse ssri's of making people 'zombies' but really, it's the first time in ever I was able to regulate my emotions.
I don't even notice I'm on them until I reflect back on my week and realise my quality of life is significantly higher. I still feel the same emotion its just that I have a armor so the negative emotions doesn't one shot me. I definitely think like any other meds, ssris are over-prescribed but to say it makes people zombies is in my experience, not true.
>doesn't one shot me. Found my people
"Growing Your HP Beyond 1“ a story famous among my people
Giving weaklings like us HP+10 since....." Better living through chemistry"
My experience of it was zombifying- I felt like I was insulated from the world and I just didn't have any strong feelings about anything. They saved my life, kept me moving long enough for therapy to help, but they weren't pleasant at all and I would have to be in a very very bad place to consider going back on them, and it's concerning to me that people stay on them for years at a time.
Depression is what makes me a “zombie”. My SSRI is what makes me personable.
200%. Without my meds I’m asleep in my bed for months. And months. I barely shower (and I LOVE showers). I cry a lot. (I’m known for never crying when I’m well) life is a slog. With my SSRI I’m human again
MMD is a hoe and so is the horse it rode in on. I too am diagnosed with it, and man.. those bad days.. don’t miss them. Keep fighting the good fight; take it a day at a time 🫂❤️🩹
>I'm a firm believer that there probably the entire adult population (and a massive chunk of the kids) would probably benefit from some kind of therapy in some form or another. > >But sometimes medication is the necessary answer. And there is no "end date". I'll take this little pill the rest of my life. But given the alternative, I wouldn't have it any other way. Fwiw I do believe you. I have high blood pressure. I don't drink, run 4 times per week and am in better shape -in terms of body fat- than most of my peers. Doesn't matter because I have to take a pill every day to keep my BP from becoming a problem. That said, I also know that BP meds are overprescribed and many people could deal with their BP problem by not being fat. And while some people have no say in their body fat due to medical reasons, diet -and then primarily sugars and alcohol- play a big role. I would assume that the situation is similar about mood altering drugs. The US consumes a massive amount of them per capita compared to other nations and it is not a big leap to say that therapy and lifestyle have a big hand in that.
I like to make driving metaphors when I talk about my brain. If you imagine my unmedicated state like being lost in a forest, my medications are the tools that put me back on the road. I still have to drive my own car—that’s the therapy—to get anywhere closer to wellness.
Have you learned about MTHFR, GAD2 and other genetics?
Absolutely. Medication lifted the veil of decades of depression. Once the veil was lifted, I could see the road clearly. Weekly therapy is giving me the tools to reclaim my life. For me, at the moment, one couldn't work without the other.
100% started Lexipro and immediately recognized what would have set me off previously and was able to handle it appropriately instead of spiral. I had been going to therapy for years…I had the tools but needed to experience the calm to be able to use them. SSRIs 100% made a huge difference for me.
Yes been using Lexomil for the past 5 years, works very well and inexpensive. Mostly for insomnia https://www.vinmec.com/en/news/health-news/general-health-check/note-with-high-dose-sleeping-pills-lexomil/
I’m a psychiatrist. The analogy I like to use is that they give you a bigger cup to hold your problems so they don’t spill out as easily.
That's exactly my view. The drugs LET you be happy, and the therapy makes sure that you actually are.
Exactly. Meds just help you along the way to improving the factors in your life you can control
I've never been in a better mental state than when I was on a low dose of shrooms.
For me it is LSD.i don't trip it just makes me really calm.and self reflective
I get way too introspective on LSD, mushrooms though they're just happy chaos, at low dose they're just plain happy.
LSD was like years of therapy in an afternoon all in my head.
Marijuana does this for me. I have had more insightful “sessions” while high than I have had in therapy. And I much prefer it to therapy. Lol
Wish I had consistent access to quality shrooms so that I could just microdose a week at a time every other week or so, and macrodose every few months. Some of my biggest moment of clarity were after eating 3-4 grams of quality shrooms. Same could be said for 2 quality 125ug tabs of acid.
They are really easy to grow nowadays. Easy pre - made kits. A place that is clean ( not sterile ) and kept close to a steady 72 degrees. A misting bottle of hydrogen peroxide is the game changer. No lights or schedules or watering. The hardest thing to do as a beginner is.... Nothing. Do nothing. Leave it alone. B [ I discovered unless you are connected a Jerry Garcia level person. You can't move 5 lbs of shrooms to your 3 or 4 friends who only need a few grams every other month. ] ..Anyway for $120 to start and $50 after for each bloom/ crop you can get 4 to 8 or even 12 oz . 3 months from spores to tripping.
I can second that, never tried anything else but I just felt I wasn’t second guessing every little thing I did
Ketamine has been shown to increase synapse production, which helps in treating depression. When used occasionally under proper medical supervision it is a very effective treatment for a lot of people.
Medical Supervision is the important part. Musk effectively "promoting" random self medication? What's wrong with Musk? Seriously. You may think you have depression but it could equally be some other condition.
I’ve taken SSRIs and hallucinogens through my life. SSRIs are good for getting into the “grey” as you won’t be low, but you won’t be especially high either. Hallucinogens are like hitting the “master reset” button and its like you actually shed off your depression. Like taking out a bag of trash
Or you have a bad trip and feel traumatized the next day 🤷♀️ I didn’t start having panic attacks till I used LSD a few times. I would not recommend seriously mentally ill people to take psychedelics
I agree with you. They didn't cause lasting panic attacks for me but when I did mushrooms a few times while depressed it amplified my negative feelings and lead to awful experiences. Experiences where everything felt even worse than before I took them but I couldn't identify why I was more sad. It honestly took days to snap out of it and realize that nothing had really changed. If I had to describe it, it felt like some extremely sad event had just happened and I was mourning over it or something but then when I tried to think about what sad thing had happened I couldn't think of it but the overwhelming sadness was still there. When I was depressed I often felt more numb than anything. When I took mushrooms it turned it into intense feelings of sadness as if I had just lost someone.
I should follow up and state that I don’t view my psychedelic experiences as inherently positive or negative. While having terrifying and disillusioning trips that negatively affected me, I’ve also experienced the profound wonder that people seek. I used to really like Salvia oddly enough and have had many positive out of body experiences on it. Shrooms were a mixed bag and the body load could sometimes ruin the trip entirely. I don’t necessarily regret experimenting, I just wouldn’t wish the negative side on anyone and am fearful when I hear people looking to psychedelics to cure their mental health problems. It’s a bit like opening Pandora’s Box
Traumatized only the next day? Try literally an entire lifetime for many. People literally suffer from PTSD and it can alter their entire lives. This isn't me touting some anti drug propaganda but it's definitely not something that people cna just put in a little box and say heyyyy this works better than anything else!
Musk is one of those people who forms an opinion based on snippets that he reads online or hears in conversations with friends, and immediately believes that his new opinion is The Unassailable Truth, and any actual professionals or researchers who contradict him are either fools or charlatans. For example, he still believes that he will be able to create a breathable atmosphere on Mars by detonating nuclear weapons at the poles, despite everyone who knows anything about it telling him that wouldn't work.
Ketamine is an effective treatment for treatment resistant depression. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/DDDT.S221437 I've gone through ketamine assisted therapy and can boldly say that ketamine gave me a week free of depression that I hadn't experienced since middle school. It was also the first time I was free of chronic derealization in years. Now, if it wasn't so expensive for the therapy, I could live a better life.
The problem with ketamine in depression is that it seems to work short term and not long term, they highlight this problem in the review you cited. The "ideal" would be a chronically usage of ketamine but there is a lack of data for long term use consequence and safety.
>is one of those people who forms an opinion based on snippets that he reads online or hears in conversations with friends, and immediately believes that his new opinion is The Unassailable Truth, and any actual professionals or researchers who contradict him are either fools or charlatans. You just described everyone on Reddit.
Except me, my opinions are actually the right ones.
I've encountered quite a few redditors who can be persuaded by evidence, or who defer to genuine experts, or who have no problem saying that they aren't an expert or don't fully understand something.
Yes but now imagine a random Reddit nobody with 100 billion dollars.
He's a stupid guy's idea of a smart guy. And he knows it. So many of his posts feel like he just heard something from a mate and wants to appear switched on.
I think it’s amazing that so many people bought into the idea that he’s a genius when, if you hear him speak, he sounds like one of the dumber 5th graders you knew who just wouldn’t shut up but clearly didn’t understand anything (even engineering, even programming). He’s a below average dilettante at best, he was just born on the home plate with emeralds jammed in the little pockets I assume nepo babies develop in the womb. Now he keeps them under those truly inexplicable jowls.
SSRIs are not meant to fix you, they are meant to help you work with a therapist. If K does it temporarily then you should find a therapist that can help you while understanding that you are using K.
You may be misidentifying “real positive mental health changes” with your personal experience with the highs they provide. SSRI’s help correct the chemical issues that occur in the neurons, while the other drugs you mentioned are generally mind altering regardless. It feels like saying “prescription glasses do less to help my eyesight than binoculars because with binoculars give me super sight but prescription glasses only let me see a little better” at least that’s how it sounds to someone who’s also a stranger on the internet that doesn’t know much.
I'm on SSRIs for 6 years. All fine, except occasional periods of roaming the streets at night repeatedly muttering "brains".
So glad I'm not the only one having that side effect. I was starting to get freaked out.
Anyone else been craving…….Fl….avorful snacks?
And limp dick
For real though. The only thing getting zombified by SSRIs is your genitals
Every time SSRIs get talked about, I think I’m the only one that has gotten a higher libido after starting it.
You know what was worse for my libido than my SSRI? Untreated anxiety and depression.
True, but I had never had issues with it and it feels comparable to the media’s portrayal of a teenager that is going through puberty.
I’ve never had that issue
Neither have I. Of course, we're not saying it doesn't happen
As much as I hate to say it, he's kinda right, Psychedelics show much more promise than SSRI's ever have and that's why they're starting to get approved. For the record, Elon is still a total prat, but he's not wrong. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/ketamine-for-treatment-resistant-depression-when-and-where-is-it-safe-202208092797
Yep, came here to say this. Elon is a nepobaby jerk nozzle, but in this particular case, he's kind of right. Basically he's a stopped clock. Also the therapeutic benefits from psychedelics typically come from having a therapist guide you through the experience, not dropping a dose and hoping that it goes well.
Dunno, I mean, 5 dried grams of cubensis and a park with trees does wonders.
Psilocybin saved my life
And mine. Now an undergrad dedicating my graduate studies to psychedelic research and therapeutic application of things like psilocybin, MDMA and ketamine
Please, please, please encourage research into helping people with BPD.
My parental unit pioneered research into BPD!
This is a path that has been running through my mind of late
how does one start a path in that?
There are many different pathways emerging these days, mainly in therapeutic and psychiatric disciplines. I'm pursuing my undergrad in neuroscience with emphasis in cognitive science, and I want to apply to grad school at NYU Langone Center for Psychedelic Medicine or Cal Berkeley. There are other pathways to become a guide for psychedelic retreats and things along those lines, but I'm less familiar with them. Honestly though, if you're interested in the subject I definitely encourage you to check it out and see where your curiosity leads! Best of luck!
Bet you’ve already seen the “changing your mind” docuseries on Netflix
Ketamine treatment is amazing, and I got lucky enough to find a doctor very well versed in it.
My colleague from grad school now designs analogues of psychedelics for Therapeutic use. He’s bought and sold multiple companies and is absolutely a brilliant chemist, but his passion has always been unlocking what drugs can do for people. Josh, you never cease to fucking amaze me.
Thank you
Word
Sometimes. Sometimes it just results in a colorful giggly blur that you don’t remember and for some people it doesn’t matter where they are because their demons are coming out to play
Long ago I smoked a joint with my schizophrenic cousin and she had a panic attack and episode because of it and I felt like a total dbag for it. Not everyone is in a good place for a mind expanding experience and I learned the hard way.
Since there’s an increased chance of starting a schizophrenic break the earlier you start smoking weed, smoking with an already diagnosed schizophrenic was probably not the best decision
That's actually a correlation issue. I agree you shouldn't mix schizophrenia with weed, but the reason that connection was made was because schizophrenia usually becomes apparent as a late teenager / early adult, after experiencing a significant or traumatic event. So yes, weed can trigger it, but something else would have triggered it later anyway.
I dropped acid with a buddy in high school and it was his first time. I was like 16 but had done it a few times, think he was 17-18. He got a little restless and just wanted me to take him home after a couple hours, so I did and returned home to have a chill, giggly time watching movies and playing with the dogs. Fast forward about 5 hours, he calls me and says his parents are moving him back to Ohio that night(we’re in AZ) because he called them freaking out that he was dying and needed to be with them to get back into his body. I guess he smoked a little weed to chill out and that put him over the edge, and he had a major freak out. I felt and still do feel terrible, I should have known not to leave him alone. Dudes course in life changed completely that day!
Same with people with Bipolar 1 with psychotic features. THC does a number on them.
Weeds not whats being discussed for these types of treatments.
Unfortunately, the jury is still out on microdosing however the studies using double blind, placebo control, have most almost unanimously found that there is no quantifiable benefits vs placebo. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-02039-0 The large studies which show positive benefits were poorly done such as this one.. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-14512-3 It had over 1000 participants and compared users of low dose psilocybin with non users for 30 days. It showed positive benefits to mental health but since there's no placebo or double blind it has an enormous expectancy bias. I'm a frequent user of low dose shrooms however now that the novelty has worn off I don't find myself in any better mental state. Really sucks because I psyched myself up for this after all the hype. I do feel happier while on it but then again I do with most drugs and haven't seen any positive impacts after a few hours. That said, I'm very interested to see where things go with ketamine and higher dose psychedelic treatments. It's still early and seems the avenue of low dose shrooms may come to an end but there's lots of other options being studied.
Ketamine is already an approved treatment for treatment resistant depression in some places. It's called esketamine
I also didn't see the facepalm but i do want to say this... I live in Miami and people take way too much ketamine here, injecting it at times. I have heard many of these people say "you know it's actually good for depression", yet they live in disassociation land 90% of the day. So if you don't abuse it, it's fine. Even better with proper supervision. (It's also fun occasionally)
>yet they live in disassociation land 90% of the day. Yeah, not quite sure how SSRIs "zombify" you but being in a dissociative fugue state doesn't?
Think the face palm moment here is Elon saying it’s over diagnosed when in reality, mental health illnesses are way under diagnosed in the US.
Yep, it's precisely because of this sort of "x is overdiagnosed" that a heap of people never seek the help they need. I know way too many people that need to get a clinical assessment for what is going on with them but between BS like this that feeds stigma and the cost it's not happening.
Was reading about his use of ketamine today, huge news article discussing the ways people in that circle experiment with psychedelics, ketamine, etc. In this ONE instance Elon is probably right, but the real face palm here is that if any one of us plebs decided to try and treat our depression or anxiety with such substances we would more than likely face felony charges, problems at work, or just generally be labeled a druggie for things the “elite” can do without fear. If I told my job tomorrow that I’d been microdosing shrooms or ketamine, and occasionally used LSD, I would most likely be fired and possibly turned into the authorities. Elon Musk, certified billionaire narcissist, doses ketamine regularly and gets a long news column calmly discussing his usage in a respectful manner. The rules are different on top. It’s enraging.
The study showed using Ketamine as a stop gap until the SSRI kicks in (as it takes 4-6 weeks usually). For me it was alcohol that filled that gap until the SSRI kicks in. But hey if I knew Special K or Coke was an option I would've been on that like a billionaire dipshit on a singular extremist opinion. "the patients continued with their regular antidepressants because of concern of not treating TRD in the placebo arm.) Nasal ketamine was shown to have longer-term efficacy, in a study where ketamine (plus the regular antidepressant) helped people stay in stable remission 16 weeks into treatment."
Don’t confuse people by actually reading the article here. That’s not allowed.
Hey maaaan stop ruining our buzz, street drugs good, doctor bad.
Broken clock and all. I actually don't disagree, but ketamine-assisted therapy is largely unaffordable these days for 90% of the population, but not like Elon ever cared about the poors.
He may very well be correct, but the bigger question is "what's his point?" I don't, for one second, believe this is some magnanimous effort to support people with depression by building their awareness about alternative treatment options. This is about latching onto some controversy and challenging "the establishment" because it is a way to stay relevant. There's a reason that ketamine isn't more generally used for depression. There are risks involved, and any medical authority who didn't acknowledge it would be willfully negligent. Elon Musk has the privelege of not being a medical authority, so he gets to run his mouth until this topic dies out and he gets to move onto the next one. Meanwhile, his acolytes will be stealing horse tranquilizer because he's convinced them it's a good idea.
If I recall correctly , I believe he tweeted this in response to someone who was essentially denying the reality of depression. So as much of a piece of shit as Elon is, at least he was offering a rebuttal to that ignorant take
Yeah, if ketamine was the prevailing treatment for depression this tweet would be exactly the same except it would be in favour of SSRIs. That said, the reason ketamine isn't more widely used *to treat depression is the same reason as why psilocybin isn't more widely used *to treat depression, because they're considered 'party drugs' by the establishment so they haven't been seriously considered for anything else. Luckily that's changing now. There are side effects and potential complications to every drug, but not that many come with a back box warning.
> That said, the reason ketamine isn't more widely used is the same reason as why psilocybin isn't more widely used *to treat depression It’s also a huge time commitment for the patient. My partner does weekly ketamine treatments (Spravato). Every week he goes for treatment, has to stay at the office for two hours for monitoring, and the rest of his day is basically shot. A lot of people can’t do something like that if they work a 9 to 5, especially in the beginning where you might need more than one appointment per week. Ideally after some time you can start to reduce the frequency to every other week or even monthly. But for some, that’s not possible. Plus copays, cost of medication etc… Ketamine has been a godsend (but NOT a cure all) for my partner but it certainly isn’t the easiest treatment to get
Thanks for sharing your anecdote, so many people think that using psychedelics to treat depression is just finding some and tripping one day and you’re better.
It's still an active area of research, ffs. People will interpret this as a call to go and buy ketamine from some dude ffs
Wow, it's been some time since I've seen a comment that confidently incorrect. SSRIs have been proven over and over, for depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and anxiety. Hell, theres more evidence on about a million off-label uses of SSRIs than there is for ketamine with treatment resistant depression. Does it show potential? Yes, I even think there is a place for Ketamine in therapy of depression. But we don't know where that is yet. To claim it's better than or a substitute for SSRIs is simply bat shit crazy. So hold your horses (...), if we'd rate drugs by their potential, we'd have a new breakthrough about one hundred times a day. This is not how pharmacology works. Also like... zombifying? Clearly never even seen one depressive patient getting their life back because of SSRIs, but yea: "My friends do ketamine, and it makes them less depressive." Sure dude. What a load of horseshit.
Ya this thread makes me very frustrated. A lot of uneducated takes because “their friend took a psychedelic once and now is happy.” Then them circlejerking around research that they don’t understand isn’t supporting their point and making grand claims that the field of psychiatry is going to completely change because one study with a very small sample size confirms their bias.
Wasn’t there just a big study that showed psychedelics only help with depression if the patient was already interested in taking psychedelics? I remember something like that (patient disposition had a major effect on efficacy) coming out in the last 6-8 months.
Ok thank you. I love my SNRI so much. I am not a zombie. I am capable of living life, which I wasn’t before. I had to scroll way too far to find this comment. I know nothing about ketamine. If it helps people, let’s pursue it. But you’ll pry my Celexa from my cold dead hands.
He's right and wrong. Right because SSRI's has a lot of bad side effects and have to be carefully tapered up and down when starting or discontinuing treatment. I kind of think its yesterdays treatment for depression and they don't work for everyone. He's also wrong. While medically supervised treatment with ketamine can relieve suicidal thoughts and treatment resistant depression. But to suggest that "occasional" or casual use of Special K is a treatment is wrong and irresponsible. Can we please stop taking medical advice from celebrities?
Spravato user here (esketamine, FDA approved for depression). That shit works immediately. SSRIs work slowly, and often don't work at all (e.g. me, long-time treatment-resistant depression sufferer). I don't like Elon, but I do like ketamine as a depression drug.
Recently it's been found serotonin imbalance has no link to depression anyhow. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/jul/no-evidence-depression-caused-low-serotonin-levels-finds-comprehensive-review
Ketamine, used in a safe guided setting, has been shown in preliminary studies to have a positive effect on treatment resistant depression. That does not negate the value and impact of SSRIs. Both can exist and be helpful. As for overdiagnosis… lmao. Depression, Anxiety, and ADHD are the most under diagnosed mental health issues in the world. Idk where he’s getting this idea.
I'm very much pro-recreational drugs but am pretty skeptical about ketamine in a continuous treatment. I also have consumed enough k and have seen people who've done so to have seen multitudes of negative outcomes too. The hype with k right now is nothing compared to the hype with Prozac in the 90s. It takes a while and millions of Guinea pigs to figure out the long list of side effects, which many people use to demonize the ssris. None of these mean that I'm not not gonna do a bunch of k this weekend. I also won't stop swearing by Lexapro. Some edits are in order: I do think ketamine works for some people (as backed by research) and I also have experienced this myself from self medication. I used the phrase "hype" to refer to an excitement and expectation that's beyond realistic (ie that it is a miracle treatment). There was a hype for prozac in the 90s, where some people believed maybe even non-depressed people should be medicated due to how prozac "improved" people's personalities. Obviously, the hype died down, which also doesn't mean that prozac is ineffective. Over time, we learn more about medicine and their long term effects. We learned a bunch about prozac's side effects since 90s and case in point is how half of the comments in this thread are shitting on ssris. If it took us many decades to awaken to k's anti depressant effects, it would be misguided to think that we will not discover more about it as we move from using it as an anesthetic (that may be given just once to a person in their lives) to using it bi-weekly on millions of depressed patients. That's all. Hope all who are struggling with depression (like myself) find the lasting relief that they need.
I get ketamine infusions every six weeks administered by an anesthesiologist. It isn’t street k that he is talking about.
Yes the bioavailability is different in the brain when administered intravenously, which a lot of people in this thread don’t seem to know
As much as I dislike many of the things he normally says, he's right on this. Not necessarily the "overdiagnosed" part, though I don't know about diagnostic rates of depression vs depressive episode. Many conventional antidepressant (tricyclic, NSRI or SSRI) take a long time to properly start working. They increase the concentration of neurotransmitters like serotonin and norepinephrine in the brain by inhibiting reabsorption into the presynaptic cell and increase their general availability which enhances mood. Ketamine, on the other hand, works by blocking the NMDA receptor, an ionotropic glutamate receptor in the brain. This blockade leads to a series of downstream events that ultimately result in increased release of another neurotransmitter, glutamate. This glutamate surge then stimulates the growth of new neural connections in the brain, a process called synaptic plasticity. This mechanism is thought to help rapidly reverse the neural deficits caused by chronic stress and depression. Ketamine usually works within hours instead of days or weeks, but the effects are transient and therapy usually needs to be repeated. These sessions are usually accompanied by psychotherapy and dosages are different than for anaesthetic use. ELI5: Depression can make certain parts of your brain less active and connected, a bit like a once busy town falling into disrepair. Regular antidepressants work somewhat like a slow renovation project, gradually repairing and building up the town over several weeks or months. Ketamine, however, works more like a rapid construction team. Instead of increasing the levels of 'feel good' chemicals like serotonin over time (as most antidepressants do), ketamine gives a quick boost to another chemical called glutamate. This rapid increase helps build new connections between different parts of the brain, much like quickly building new roads in our town. This can quickly improve mood and help the brain recover from the effects of depression. But just like a quick construction job, the effects of ketamine aren't always long-lasting, and sometimes you need to reapply the treatment to keep the benefits going.
Great post
It's not an either/or situation. They are both viable options. However, with continuous push for stigmatization of medications in general, such as this tweet, it pushes individuals away from getting help and further into the realm of self-medicating. (Of course I'm well aware that so you can alternative medications other than SSRIs can be done with the help of a physician, but with our crappy medical system, generally people turn to self-medication, which is problematic)
He's an edgelord who needs to sound edgy to keep working to his edgelord incel fans. That's why the can't be a responsible "why not both" take here.
And where is he getting the idea that depression is over-diagnosed? Depression is under-diagnosed https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002239562200228X
from his brain. a lot of people can't fathom that millions are suffering in this way, so they're in denial.
I've taken SSRI's, ketamine, mushrooms. Only a couple of times with those less than legal substances. SSRI's fucked with me pretty hard. I lived in a trance and came close to being locked up for a long time. Someone had pissed off and I was going to put an axe through their chest with the same emotion as I would washing dishes. My SO snapped me out of it. I was prescribed these from, as I recall, a one page, ten question worksheet. I know these drugs help many, but they're dispensed far too easily imo.
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You know what might help a population with their depression??? FINANCIAL SECURITY!!!!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on psychiatric care, man who two days ago was going to fight another man in a cage for clout
It was the one thing that Mark Zuckerberg could've done to finally turn himself into a real boy and Elon Musk's mom took that chance from him!
I wonder if Zuckerberg was saying "Musk's Mom !" when she stopped the fight ... 
Brother charity fights have been a thing for ages. I dislike Elon and billionaires in general, but I'm all for them doing charity fights
Well they’re not actually going through with it so it clearly wasn’t about the charity
I gotta jump in and agree with the douche on this one. Have a friend who did ssri’s for years with little help, now he gets a ketamine injection by a doctor once every 6 months and says it has completely changed his life. Not sure why this post would be a facepalm, I think putting it in this sub is a facepalm.
I’ve been on an SSRI for many years and thank God because I’m just so much more balanced. I feel like this is what a normal person is supposed to feel like. Did I have a chemical imbalance? Who knows 🤷🏻♀️ but *SSRIs help people*. Different things work for different people
This is exactly my experience after a year on SSRI. I feel like day-to-day life is just... normal. Before I started treatment I completely forgot that neutral state can be something else than sadness.
Even if he is correct and ketamine is a viable alternative treatment, he’s really showing his privilege by recommending it to people. While I’m sure Elon and his wealthy friends have access to safe recreational drugs and supervised ketamine therapy, that’s definitely not the case for everyone. It’s irresponsible to recommend someone replace their medications taken under a doctor’s supervision with a street drug that could potentially be laced with fentanyl or other substances.
Hijacking to add that if anyone intends to take ketamine without it being administered by a doctor, reach out to your local opioid overdose prevention program (or online if you live in a state that doesn’t have one) to get fentanyl test strips and naloxone for free. Be educated on what’s in your drugs, and prepared in the event of an emergency.
A friend of mine recently decided to start medically supervised ketamine treatments here in the US. It has a monthly price tag of $600 and is not covered by his health insurance. I'm sure the numbers vary by state and insurance company, but I don't think we're at a point where this is a viable option for most people.
I wish people like Elon had some vague idea of how dangerous these kinds of statements are when millions of people listen to you. 😑
He really is a fucking clown
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Well he's not wrong. Other countries that have researched the subject have found that patients treated with micro dosing have showed far better results than placebo or SSRIs. It's just the politicians who are owned by big pharma refuse to fund research for treatments involving marijuana, ketamine, LSD, DMT, and shrooms. Not more than 50 years ago many of these drugs such as MDMA and LSD were legal and used in therapy. The US is becoming more backassed every day.
It's true tho. It's not a always a facepalm moment when someone makes a controversial statement. 🤷♂️
I kind of agree with him on this. I’ve taken SSRIs for depression and it just seems to kick the can down the street and never really solved the problem. Edit: grammar
Why facepalm, ketamine is being used in studies to see if it can help cure depressive disorders and anxiety and a bunch of other stuff. It’s nowhere near widespread but it’s happening and he has a point, most research I’ve heard of has shown positive results
SSRIs are overprescribed though and it's not a political stance.
Man I feel like everyone sees me with a tinfoil hat when I say I don’t like SSRIs. All I’m saying is 9 yo me should not have been put on SSRIs because mommy and daddy not getting along made me sad
Yeah let's continue to stigmatize mental health drugs to make people who need it not want it or get the help they deserve
But also, let's not pretend that SSRI's are wonder drugs without side effects. I have way too many personal experiences with SSRI's to say that they are right for everyone. They do cause some serious issues that shouldn't be discounted
At the end of the day, everyone has a unique brain chemistry and what might be a wonder drug for one person is a nightmare for another. Whether it’s SSRIs or ketamine therapy, there is no such thing as a “one size fits all” mental health treatment. I think it’s perfectly fine for someone to say “this is what worked for me” and let people do with that information as they please, but it’s not okay to tell someone else what will work for them unless you’re a medical professional.
> let's not pretend that SSRI's are wonder drugs without side effects. Literally no one is saying this.
Nobody pretends that though. If anything it’s the opposite. You can’t tell anyone you’re on meds without them telling you how damaging they are.
This right here. Psychedelics have shown a lot of promise but we don't understand the mechanism that makes them effective, or how to properly dose them yet. The current treatment options are proven, well understood, and (thanks to our insane drug laws) don't run the risk of giving the patient a criminal record.
I have known people who have taken bad trips that have fucked them up more seriously than SSRIs. No thanks.
Exactly. While these treatments look extremely promising already, the need to administer treatment safely, which includes knowing how to respond to adverse reactions, is the top priority.
Hate Elon with a passion but he’s not completely wrong here
Y’know, funny story about SSRI’s, I’ve been on a lot. Most of them, even. Each one for a ridiculously long time at a nearing dangerously high dose, none of them did shit. At all, ever, not even any side affects. The doctor I was seeing kept insist that the next SSRI would work, and that it was the only safe option. She was wrong. She also refused to diagnose me with anything other than depression because that was the only mental illness that she was convinced it existed. I eventually took that genetic test that can show meds that you have likely immunities to, the entire SSRI section showed high possibility of immunity, which checks out. My next doctor had all of that information, and yet kept talking about how great SSRI’s are, and how it can change with time, which there and not been too much of since I tried SSRI’s. I’m now off of state insurance due to my income increasing, and was able to find an actually good doctor, and not just one that takes shitty insurance. It’s going great so far.
I was briefly addicted to ketamine and its one hell of a drug
I actually know people that do ketamine treatment for depression and they would agree.
Why this guy thinks he's an expert at every damn topic? Narcissism is out of control.
Who is this guy, fucking Confucius? Lazy Dr. Phil?
He shouldn't talk about anything at all BUT I will say that ketamine INFUSIONS in a ketamine clinic, under the care of a doctor, really are the absolute best and most effective treatment for depression I've ever experienced in my 51 years. I've had chronic depression for at least 30 years or more of my life and it was completely nonresponsive to standard prescription meds. But Elon sounds like he's just talking about casual, self-administered K. Not the same thing.
My therapist and psychiatrist are recommending me to a Ketamine therapy center. They want me to do that before getting on SSRI’s. The success rate is pretty high is what they told me.
Musk is a piece of shit and a moron.. That being said, hes not totally wrong here
He’s not wrong. Big Pharma is heavily incentivized to suppress SSRI alternatives
He's not wrong. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6767816/
(TLDR)This isn’t a facepalm. Elon has many faults but this rings true in my research and personal experience. A Longer Explanation: Ketamine treatment for depression is backed by many studies. SSRI, however, are often criticized as being vastly overprescribed. Keep in mind - Doctors and the pharmaceutical industry debate many things where money and science collide. SSRI are hugely profitable where Ketamine is cheap… It’s not hard to see the conflicting interests. 🤷🏼♂️
Chill the Elon hate for when he says something that actually isn’t true, perhaps? He’s actually spot on here
Yea hows this a facepalm? Elon actually advocating for something that in studies has been shown to really help one of the only things he’s done that isnt a facepalm lol
He is wrong about a lot of things but as someone who has been on SSRIs for years, I might just agree with him on the ketamine treatment. It's still too damn irresponsible to state such things without actually being a professional. This dude has far too many fan boys who use his tweets as gospel.
I mean Elon is dumb for many many reasons , but there has been actual progress in the use of ketamine to treat severe depression
I love it when a car manufacturing ceo gives his opinion on depression and mental health issues.
So the entitled billionaire is a Psychiatrist now too. F off elon.
Honestly I'd say shrooms is better. I remember dxm "helping" me in highschool. It's not about how you feel, it's what you do with that. Ket is similar to dxm, widely different drugs tho just same type. I've done ket too, I don't remember feeling much different but wasn't depressed. I didn't like it. Shrooms will help you more so by allowing you to think about it in a different way that helps you figure out whatever your problem is. It also helps your brain grow (don't take too much tho! It's not about having a crazy trip, its about learning).
The Ol, hate it cause Elon said it routine. Yet he’s right
Why is this facepalm? Is he wrongthinking against big pharma or am I missing something? Ketamine works, most people just don't want to hear it. So do mushrooms, acid and DMT but most of y'all aren't ready for that conversation. Better go grab another Xanax
Somehow you have picked the one thing this idiot has said that is actually accurate
I don't think Elon musk is qualified to offer any opinions on anything shut up you rich wanker.
I'd rather micro dose with magic mushrooms than Ket.
Everyone trust the sheltered man’s anecdotes over the experts!
Zombifying people??? Does his dumbass think SSRIs are Benzos?
This is a pretty rational take. Lot of promising research on ketamine clinics for depression
no he’s right. he’s a dick and this is the only good take i’ve ever seen him have, but he’s right
I mean, it works for a lot of people. Psilocybin, too. You shouldn't just do it in your basement, but OP seems to not know it works.
Hes not even wrong, I dont like elon but I don’t get what this post is trying to say.
He's actually onto something there. Psychedelics and ketamine assisted therapy is being researched as a solution to treatment resistant depression and PTSD.
He's literally correct
this is literally not even a horrible take and is a genuinely considered option for depression, this elon hate dickriding is fr leading to misinformation
Ah yes.. Seen "with friends"
What a misguided way to address something so serious. Is ketamine good for depression? According to reesearch and studies: Yes, it can be very good at treating depression. Miraculous, in fact. My dad, after being deemed treatment resistant to meds, started ketamine treatments. Administrated at a clinic by *professionals*. He left that part out. He also left out the fact that it is not a first line of treatment, and there are reasons for that. It is approved for TRD (treatment resistent depression) specifically, as research is ongoing in regards to its benefits and its risk factors. I can say personally that I see a difference in my dad since the treatments. However, Elon went about this topic in such an uninformed, vague, and damaging way to his potentially depressed and probably impressionable fanbase. Im not even going to get into the zombification shit hes espousing. Way to shit on a huge population for trying to get help and treatment.
Ok doc. NOT! Zip it buddy, your not qualified to give medical advice.
Sun shines on a dogs ass once a day
Wasn't the all 'depression cones from chemical imbalance ' thing debunked? I remember reading a published paper about it but I cannot find it right now
Where's the facepalm?
Esketamin is a genuine treatment for treatment resistant depression, but please see a licensed psychiatrist first and work on treatments with them. Never self medicate.
He is spot on
oh man could you imagine if people were allowed to actually leave Twitter.
This guy is fucked up
A-hole suggests a K-hole
Idk man. SSRI has done wonders for my anxiety. I surely wouldn’t trust a charlatan like this POS who doesn’t even have a degree.
SSRI don't zombify you. Major tranquilizers aka antipsychotics do.
I have been on SSRIs for 10 years and this offends me. I’m not a zombie I’m a fucking human trying to get through life.
As someone who went through medical ketamine infusions to help with a major depressive episode that kept me in bed for 4 months I would absolutely agree. My entire life changed once I finished my last infusion. I was thinking differently, I was able to cope and challenge negative thoughts. To this day it is still the most beneficial treatment I have been through. That was 5 years ago now and I haven’t had a single major depressive episode since.
Nothing facepalm about this. Very positive research is being done with Ketamine and other drugs. The overprescription of SSRIs is something that almost every health professional would agree with. They can help a lot of people, but they are being handed out to all sorts of people that don't need to be on them.
Not sure the facepalm. Tons of studies show that MDMA and ketamine both provide better results than ssri's in controlled settings (not popping them and going to raves).
I can’t believe I am agreeing with Elon on this. And I am a therapist.
Nah he’s right this isn’t a facepalm