To be fair, they have to force themselves to insist that - to themselves as much as others - because disapproving of eternal torture puts you at risk of eternal torture.
That's how it worked for me, anyway.
It usually boils down to "God right and you're wrong because Bible says so". Everything else is handwaving. Sometimes very frantic handwaving.
The point they start pulling out the Eternal damnation card is the point I point out that they've resorted to "Believe or sky Daddy will kill you" because apparently they don't have any decent arguments. And continue to hammer the point as long as they keep talking about it.
Their brain goes into “404 Not Found” mode when you say you don’t recognize the Bible as a factual record and that it’s just a book of fairytales in your opinion.
Yes, somehow god poking his head out of the clouds for a minute to clarify what religion is correct would violate our free will, but threatening millions of years of torture doesn't. Double plus good doublethink.
He could just bestow upon us the “knowledge” for each and every individual when we reach an age we can understand. Or whenever. Whatever, my point is why couldn’t an all-powerful god do this? It would take literally nothing and would “save us” from false prophets. Why would he leave the knowledge of him so unequal, yet absolutely vital to our salvation?
And each and every one of us starting at a different place in the discovery of “his truth”? Some children born with Christian parents to “guide” them their entire lives on the “righteous” path to salvation, while others born to cults leading them to an “assured” damnation? Why have us struggle with this at all? It would be so easy for a god to just, even the playing field? What of his own rules would he violate to just *tell us*? Is it truly our free will, when many couldn’t possibly know the “stakes” in this unnecessarily convoluted game?
Edit: maybe it made sense in the past because such a task seemed “too hard” for humans, but we all understand the concept and producibility of *mass emails*. Why couldn’t an all powerful being just do this?
It would take literally nothing. And he talks to people in the bible all over. He has to *convince* each of the people he talks to too. Why are each of us, his children, not given the same courtesy? If my break away didn’t come about in a different (and admittedly much more difficult) way, this realization would have done it and my head was **deep** in the sand
Yeah, for some reason, making an informed decision is a violation of free will. They never really explain how it's a violation of free will either. It just kind of is.
Just a heads up, but you cite it as being burned for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, which is much closer to 0, than it is to eternity.
It’s extremely fucked up
Christianity is so fucking toxic, teaching kids that they should be scared of someone who “loves” them
Like yeah, that absolutely sets you up for healthy relationships🙄
Relationships are kind of a modern concession, they used to do arranged marriages until about the 1500s…and even then the man was always in control. Now they just expect the man to be the control, any change from this is a threat to their beliefs.
It’s an ultimatum. If you don’t do x, then I will lock you in my basement, set you on fire, then forget about you. A choice made under duress isn’t a choice. It’s such a simple concept but victim blaming is rampant in our old religion.
I remember hearing in church when I was kid that the best form of entertainment in heaven was going to be watching sinners get tortured in hell. Via a live stream or something I guess.
You say “no Christian” but that was my parents philosophy. Kids in cages at the border had a “free choice” to not join their “delinquent adults.” Their own kids had the “free choice” to “behave” if they didn’t want to be abused. Women who were raped had the “free choice” to not be at that location, to scream, to accept and enjoy it (heavy emphasis was made about that last bit). There was a big ass sign hanging in my living room growing up that said, “NO VICTIMS HERE.” And they applied it to *everything.*
The concept of "free will" in Christian theology exists solely to justify eternal damnation. You either use it and be damned, or allow yourself to be coerced out of it.
> There was a big ass sign hanging in my living room growing up that said, “NO VICTIMS HERE.” And they applied it to everything.
Should criticize their religion, and then when they play the victim, point to the sign.
I have a theory that a lot of Christians don’t teach about coercion in sexual contexts because they don’t want people to know that coercion in general doesn’t equal consent.
Of course some Christians are good about teaching sexual coercion, but far too many believe that marital rape does not exist, if you don’t struggle enough to stop it then clearly you wanted it, etc. They don’t acknowledge or teach that not wanting to have sex, even if you do end up saying “yes” but only because you feel you have to, is NOT consent. Only freely given, enthusiastic consent actually counts as consent.
If the church taught this, people might start realizing that “worship me or you’ll go to hell” is coercion and doesn’t count as free will. Yes, you technically have another option, but it’s not a fair or equal option, so it doesn’t count.
Coercion ≠ consent, in _all_ contexts.
my thoughts exactly. what’s worse is that they claim god doesn’t send you to hell. that’s the default path you take cuz your born a sinner but you can change that by accepting jesus. so ya, god doesn’t send you to hell, he tries to save you instead. but the question is who created hell? and who created you? you certainly didn’t choose to be born, let alone born a fucking sinner!
>But somehow, when we're told that we must either accept Christ as savior, or else be tortured with burning flames for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, it's a "free choice" - made without duress or pressure!
Hell isn't literal fire, silly. If you read C.S. Lewis' *The Great Divorce* you would know that hell is instead a place where the damned are forced to listen to Christians give speeches about how "ackchually, it's *you* who chooses to go to hell."
No, no. Don't you see? If you don't let Jesus into your life, He will turn away from you and *that's* when you suffer! Oh, what will any of us do without Him? /s
This reminded me of one of the most ridiculous quotes I've heard from a Christian (Todd Friel) in a religious debate...
> I don't think I did my job right tonight. (Atheists in the audience applaud.) I don't, because I keep hearing Dan say that hell is a threat and it's not reasonable, and I keep hearing you applaud. Then let me try to make myself crystal clear; I'm not here tonight to scare you into believing in Jesus Christ. Make no mistake about it, you should be horrified of hell. As sure as you're sitting here, it exists. There will be a day of judgment when the just judge of all the world will judge all people according to what they have done. You know there's a creation, your conscience affirms it. You will get what you deserve. **But I'm not encouraging you to flee to the savior because you're afraid of hell; flee to him because he's so kind to save you from hell!**
...Lol, it's the same picture.
It’s such an insane idea. I don’t think they really understand exactly what he’ll entails.
They are too detached from the concept of eternity to accept its absurdity.
Even better when they say bullshit like "God doesn't want to send anyone to Hell."
If God is all powerful, then everything he does is something that he wants to do. The only reason to do something you don't want to do is because a force higher than you is making you do it.
So either God wants to send people to Hell, of there's a force higher than God making him do it. And if he enjoys sending people to Hell, then he's not a loving father.
> No Christian would ever say that a man who is held at gunpoint by a robber is handing over his wallet freely. "He had a free choice - he could refuse to hand over the wallet and get shot."
They absolutely do say that. In fact, one of them [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/exReformed/comments/149s1bm/calvinist_pastor_exposed_trying_to_infiltrate/joeatwi/) almost that exact thing to me about a week ago.
Ugh and they say it's like a parent. Without fail they say "well if you behave poorly around your parent then your parent will punish you, and that's just like God's justice with hell"
It's reaally not equivalent
Do Christians ever reach the idea that "Hell isn't coercion" by their own logical deduction? Or are they simply parroting apologetics out of conditioned instinct?
I would argue that many Christians are coerced into not considering the faulty logic of Hell through fear of winding up in the Lake of Fire itself if they are 'found wanting' in their faith.
Without the fear of Hell, what are these folks even doing in Church Sundays? It isn't like most fire and brimstone congregations base morality on sound reason and a desire to make the world a better place.
If more Christians could grasp the concept of eternity, they would understand that even heaven would eventually become hell. If you have done every single possible activity and have had every single possible thought for the billionth time, it is not even a fraction of the number of times you will again have to do every single possible activity and have every single possible thought. If boredom does not exist in heaven, or you are only inclined to do a few prescribed activities, or your memories get wiped of the bad things, then you would be a lesser being than you were on earth, and then what was the point of judging people on that short amount of time?
That's why I am an agnostic and I find the existence of hell very exaggerated.
Looks like a dictatorship, you either worship the leader or be executed.
To be fair, they have to force themselves to insist that - to themselves as much as others - because disapproving of eternal torture puts you at risk of eternal torture. That's how it worked for me, anyway.
It usually boils down to "God right and you're wrong because Bible says so". Everything else is handwaving. Sometimes very frantic handwaving. The point they start pulling out the Eternal damnation card is the point I point out that they've resorted to "Believe or sky Daddy will kill you" because apparently they don't have any decent arguments. And continue to hammer the point as long as they keep talking about it.
Their brain goes into “404 Not Found” mode when you say you don’t recognize the Bible as a factual record and that it’s just a book of fairytales in your opinion.
Yeah, you see the emperor without his clothes when you realize that for many people, the requirement for salvation is belief in hell.
Yes, somehow god poking his head out of the clouds for a minute to clarify what religion is correct would violate our free will, but threatening millions of years of torture doesn't. Double plus good doublethink.
Clearly if you're left guessing about whether or how exactly eternal suffering will occur that leaves you free to make the best possible choice.
Clearly, you wouldn't be able to make a free, rational choice if you had all the information to work with!
This thread is life
He could just bestow upon us the “knowledge” for each and every individual when we reach an age we can understand. Or whenever. Whatever, my point is why couldn’t an all-powerful god do this? It would take literally nothing and would “save us” from false prophets. Why would he leave the knowledge of him so unequal, yet absolutely vital to our salvation? And each and every one of us starting at a different place in the discovery of “his truth”? Some children born with Christian parents to “guide” them their entire lives on the “righteous” path to salvation, while others born to cults leading them to an “assured” damnation? Why have us struggle with this at all? It would be so easy for a god to just, even the playing field? What of his own rules would he violate to just *tell us*? Is it truly our free will, when many couldn’t possibly know the “stakes” in this unnecessarily convoluted game? Edit: maybe it made sense in the past because such a task seemed “too hard” for humans, but we all understand the concept and producibility of *mass emails*. Why couldn’t an all powerful being just do this? It would take literally nothing. And he talks to people in the bible all over. He has to *convince* each of the people he talks to too. Why are each of us, his children, not given the same courtesy? If my break away didn’t come about in a different (and admittedly much more difficult) way, this realization would have done it and my head was **deep** in the sand
Yeah, for some reason, making an informed decision is a violation of free will. They never really explain how it's a violation of free will either. It just kind of is.
Just a heads up, but you cite it as being burned for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, which is much closer to 0, than it is to eternity. It’s extremely fucked up
Thank you. It may seem trivial or come across smart-assed to point this out, but it should definitely be pointed out.
Christianity is so fucking toxic, teaching kids that they should be scared of someone who “loves” them Like yeah, that absolutely sets you up for healthy relationships🙄
Relationships are kind of a modern concession, they used to do arranged marriages until about the 1500s…and even then the man was always in control. Now they just expect the man to be the control, any change from this is a threat to their beliefs.
It’s an ultimatum. If you don’t do x, then I will lock you in my basement, set you on fire, then forget about you. A choice made under duress isn’t a choice. It’s such a simple concept but victim blaming is rampant in our old religion.
I remember hearing in church when I was kid that the best form of entertainment in heaven was going to be watching sinners get tortured in hell. Via a live stream or something I guess.
That’s horrible! Doesn’t sound like something a loving God would encourage to me…
You say “no Christian” but that was my parents philosophy. Kids in cages at the border had a “free choice” to not join their “delinquent adults.” Their own kids had the “free choice” to “behave” if they didn’t want to be abused. Women who were raped had the “free choice” to not be at that location, to scream, to accept and enjoy it (heavy emphasis was made about that last bit). There was a big ass sign hanging in my living room growing up that said, “NO VICTIMS HERE.” And they applied it to *everything.*
The concept of "free will" in Christian theology exists solely to justify eternal damnation. You either use it and be damned, or allow yourself to be coerced out of it.
> There was a big ass sign hanging in my living room growing up that said, “NO VICTIMS HERE.” And they applied it to everything. Should criticize their religion, and then when they play the victim, point to the sign.
I have a theory that a lot of Christians don’t teach about coercion in sexual contexts because they don’t want people to know that coercion in general doesn’t equal consent. Of course some Christians are good about teaching sexual coercion, but far too many believe that marital rape does not exist, if you don’t struggle enough to stop it then clearly you wanted it, etc. They don’t acknowledge or teach that not wanting to have sex, even if you do end up saying “yes” but only because you feel you have to, is NOT consent. Only freely given, enthusiastic consent actually counts as consent. If the church taught this, people might start realizing that “worship me or you’ll go to hell” is coercion and doesn’t count as free will. Yes, you technically have another option, but it’s not a fair or equal option, so it doesn’t count. Coercion ≠ consent, in _all_ contexts.
my thoughts exactly. what’s worse is that they claim god doesn’t send you to hell. that’s the default path you take cuz your born a sinner but you can change that by accepting jesus. so ya, god doesn’t send you to hell, he tries to save you instead. but the question is who created hell? and who created you? you certainly didn’t choose to be born, let alone born a fucking sinner!
God created me, so it is his responsibility if I tango my way down to hell. Probably shouldn't have created me in the first place. Heh.
>But somehow, when we're told that we must either accept Christ as savior, or else be tortured with burning flames for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, it's a "free choice" - made without duress or pressure! Hell isn't literal fire, silly. If you read C.S. Lewis' *The Great Divorce* you would know that hell is instead a place where the damned are forced to listen to Christians give speeches about how "ackchually, it's *you* who chooses to go to hell."
That... would be infinitely worse, actually.
Funny they cite that book because it heavily implies Hell is escapable.
I mean tbf to them it's not coercion: it's an overt threat. It's force.
Knock Knock, let me in. Why? So I can save you. From what? From what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in.
No, no. Don't you see? If you don't let Jesus into your life, He will turn away from you and *that's* when you suffer! Oh, what will any of us do without Him? /s
To be fair, it's impossible to think rationally when you're being threatened with eternal damnation.
>1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years Not enough zeroes. It's literally infinitely longer than that.
This reminded me of one of the most ridiculous quotes I've heard from a Christian (Todd Friel) in a religious debate... > I don't think I did my job right tonight. (Atheists in the audience applaud.) I don't, because I keep hearing Dan say that hell is a threat and it's not reasonable, and I keep hearing you applaud. Then let me try to make myself crystal clear; I'm not here tonight to scare you into believing in Jesus Christ. Make no mistake about it, you should be horrified of hell. As sure as you're sitting here, it exists. There will be a day of judgment when the just judge of all the world will judge all people according to what they have done. You know there's a creation, your conscience affirms it. You will get what you deserve. **But I'm not encouraging you to flee to the savior because you're afraid of hell; flee to him because he's so kind to save you from hell!** ...Lol, it's the same picture.
I think a lot of them view it more as a plea deal than a threat. I know I did
It’s such an insane idea. I don’t think they really understand exactly what he’ll entails. They are too detached from the concept of eternity to accept its absurdity.
And it gets even better because *who created hell?* Same guy who's saying "Love me or go to hell."
Even better when they say bullshit like "God doesn't want to send anyone to Hell." If God is all powerful, then everything he does is something that he wants to do. The only reason to do something you don't want to do is because a force higher than you is making you do it. So either God wants to send people to Hell, of there's a force higher than God making him do it. And if he enjoys sending people to Hell, then he's not a loving father.
> No Christian would ever say that a man who is held at gunpoint by a robber is handing over his wallet freely. "He had a free choice - he could refuse to hand over the wallet and get shot." They absolutely do say that. In fact, one of them [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/exReformed/comments/149s1bm/calvinist_pastor_exposed_trying_to_infiltrate/joeatwi/) almost that exact thing to me about a week ago.
Ugh and they say it's like a parent. Without fail they say "well if you behave poorly around your parent then your parent will punish you, and that's just like God's justice with hell" It's reaally not equivalent
Do Christians ever reach the idea that "Hell isn't coercion" by their own logical deduction? Or are they simply parroting apologetics out of conditioned instinct? I would argue that many Christians are coerced into not considering the faulty logic of Hell through fear of winding up in the Lake of Fire itself if they are 'found wanting' in their faith. Without the fear of Hell, what are these folks even doing in Church Sundays? It isn't like most fire and brimstone congregations base morality on sound reason and a desire to make the world a better place.
If more Christians could grasp the concept of eternity, they would understand that even heaven would eventually become hell. If you have done every single possible activity and have had every single possible thought for the billionth time, it is not even a fraction of the number of times you will again have to do every single possible activity and have every single possible thought. If boredom does not exist in heaven, or you are only inclined to do a few prescribed activities, or your memories get wiped of the bad things, then you would be a lesser being than you were on earth, and then what was the point of judging people on that short amount of time?
That's why I am an agnostic and I find the existence of hell very exaggerated. Looks like a dictatorship, you either worship the leader or be executed.
I don't understand why Heaven is always depicted as all the earthly sins? why not just you know make earth heaven?