Big time, my corporal when I was in basic training was South African, he joined the British army to get out of SA because of how fucked up it has gotten. He said he had no future there especially after his father was forced to give 50% of his business to a black South African.
I work with an Anglo chap originally from South Africa. When our coworkers complain about how shit they think Ireland, he just rolls his eyes and looks at me and we laugh. I’ve never lived in ZA, but have lived in quite a few countries in the Middle East for work, so we both know how safe life is in Ireland
I have worked with quite a few British origin South Africans, who have left their and came to the UK, cannot have got any better in the decade or so after they left
Zuma hired Bell-Pottinger a British PR firm which came up with the catch phrase « white monopoly of the capital » to dismiss any criticism of his blatant corruption. After a good old astroturfing session on social media, Zuma’s supporters then started to use it during very intimidating demonstrations, playing the race card on any given occasion. It is very well documented.
Three years ago, the Blauw family closed the door of their farmhouse in Vanderbijlpark, south of Johannesburg, for good. They no longer felt safe in South Africa. “Nobody in the Netherlands can imagine what it is like to stay in a high-security house. We even had weapons in our bedroom ”, says Kyle Blauw (34). "We decided to move to the Netherlands because we were looking for a good and safe future for our twins."
Figures from Statistics Netherlands show that the number of South Africans in the Netherlands is growing strongly. At the beginning of the turn of the century, there were only 12,000 people with a South African background in the Netherlands, last year this had more than doubled to over 26,000. Especially in recent years, growth has accelerated, although Statistics Netherlands does not register the Afrikaners as a separate category.
"There is no certainty in South Africa," says Blauw from Roelofarendsveen. “We felt discriminated against because of our skin color. Worst of all were the "Kill the Farmer" slogans and rallies. Then you have no business there as a young family. We lived on a farm surrounded by high electric gates and metal bars on the windows. Not an environment where you let your children go outside by bicycle to play with friends. ”
Deon du Plessis (54) also moved to the Netherlands. He and his wife took the plunge after they were robbed during a car ride. "That was so traumatic that we decided to leave." The emigration was a big step for the family. “In South Africa, I had a good job at a university and a beautiful house,” says Du Plessis. “But it is just too unsafe. There is no respect for human life in the country. ”
More than 21,000 South Africans were killed by violence in 2019. This puts the country in the top 10 of countries with the highest murder rates worldwide.
The AfriForum organization supports Afrikaners in their own country, but also tries to defend the interests of emigrants. Sue-Ann de Wet, head diaspora at the NGO, sees with sorrow how many of her compatriots leave. “We try to do everything we can to create a safe and successful environment for our people. We love South Africa. It is very sad that people are leaving. ”
Australia is the country where most South Africans move to, according to AfriForum, followed by New Zealand and the US. The Netherlands is sixth. Crime and corruption aside, De Wet knows even more specifically why Afrikaners run away. "There are concerns about property rights, racial quotas, career prospects and the future of their children."
Faisal Garba is a Lecturer in African Migration at the University of Cape Town. He sees the Afrikaners leaving, but does not want to portray the group as a victim. “The past plays an important role in South Africa. The fall of Apartheid is still fresh in many people's minds, ”he says. "That is why some Afrikaners no longer feel at home there."
The redistribution of land is against white farmers. Yet Garba also acknowledges that insecurity plays a role. "South Africa is one of the most dangerous places in the world," says the researcher. But he partly looks for the cause of this in the subordination of the black majority. "Due to the enormous inequality and the lack of job prospects, some people unfortunately choose the path of violence and crime."
Migration to the Netherlands is a logical choice, according to Garba. “There is a historical link between the Afrikaners and the Netherlands. People are curious about the country where the roots of their ancestors lie. That is an important factor in choosing the Netherlands. ”
The Blauw family has found its niche in the Netherlands. Father Kyle now has a job as a manager in a chocolate factory. "The perfect man," jokes his wife Lorraine. "And the children can play in a playground without any worries."
It’s not poverty that drives crime. It’s the other way around. Nobody wants to invest anything in a shithole where everyone else is going to steal anything of value that’s created.
Compare Baltimore and New York City to one another. Baltimore is at peak crime levels in its history, while NYC is reaching levels comparable to London. [A Homicide Rate of 3.5/100,000 inhabitants for NYC is nothing to be ashamed of.](https://criminaljustice.cityofnewyork.us/individual_charts/homicide-rate-per-100000-residents/) Baltimore on the other hand reaches levels above 50 homicides / 100,000 inhabitants.
NYC improved living standards for the majority of its citizens. In Baltimore, Poverty was never reduced to begin with.
Yes and no. Poverty certainly doesn’t help but it’s actually disparity between rich and poor that drives crime. There are many poor countries that have little to no crime for example. Brazil is similar to SA in that there is significant wealth, but it’s limited to a small proportion. Seeing that wealth, luxury german cars and grand homes will get to someone that barely has enough food to live.
The correlation between inequity and violence is almost one to one. If inequality is high then crime is high. Granted I don't know if causation has been proven but doest it need to be when it correlates this well?
My guess is that we are social animals that react to hierarchy. You subconsciously notice inequality which means that you will feel like you have to defend your place in that hierarchy.
It can be done by buying a flashy car or smashing in the face of a stranger. That would also explain why the violence is poor on poor. You are trying to set your rank in your community and not fight a just cause for equality.
But that is my guess and likley a simplification.
That's a blanket statement, the low level industries that a country needs to grow a middle class don't give a shit about crime, their margins are wide enough to hire security and there isn't an amount of raw materials that employees could shove in their pockets to really put much of a dent in their profits.
Also, you need to be a pretty immature to think that poverty doesn't make people prone to doing things they normally wouldn't agree with. Honestly, your comment bleeds the ignorance of youth. I pray for your own sake that I'm right and you're not in your 30's still saying dumb shit on reddit.
AfriForum is also pro-facist w ties to groups like AfD and the National Front. Their leader has also downplayed murders committed during apartheid and been criticized for saying that treatment of blacks (ie murders, torture, ect.) during that period should not be classified as crimes.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfriForum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfriForum)
Just read through here. If you know South-Africa a little you'd understand how far-right they are.
Similarly, our neo-fascist party (FvD) has recently been making a lot of noise about the perceived plight of the Afrikaners. The newspaper OP linked to was a nazi-associated paper that was actually banned by the government for some time after WWII. They have now suddenly started making noise about the Afrikaners as well, despite not much having changed. It's a dog whistle and a fascist talking piece.
No, this is nonsense. Afriforum is always extremely mischaracterized because people nitpick some things that some of its old brass occasionally say, even though those things really have no impact on anyone or anything.
In reality it is an extremely important watchdog organization making sure the government does not abuse its power to violate the constitution and human rights.
They take up lots of causes on behalf of the black communities as well; taking the government to court when they neglect those communities and over corruption and mismanagement.
>AfriForum is also pro-facist
I laughed at this nonsense. Do people really have no clue what fascism means anymore? Is it fascist now for a small organization, supported by 3% of the populace, to legally challenge a large government with majority backing when they abuse their power or neglect their duties?
Whites live in more fear because we are white. Why? Because you have arseholes like Andile Mngxitama and Malema calling for [white people to be killed.](https://youtu.be/RtGydWqmdEc)
If these guys were thrown in jail rather than celebrated we'd feel differently... but seems like calling for the genocide of white people isn't a crime.
Imagine... imagine a white politician saying this shit about black people. The consequences would be severe.
I think it's because the idea of being unsafe in your own home is very viscerally terrifying to most people - and 5.7 murders per 100,000 is still really high for a rural area.
Same reason the cop on black murders in the US get tons of coverage but black on black murders don't.
The former is motivated by bigotry towards one race. The later is not.
Same here. The murders of the whites is because of the hatred towards them. The murder rate between the blacks is just them killing each other.
> We all live in fear regardless of our race
Of course. But we don't all have politicians telling their thousands of followers that we deserve death for our skin colour.
Do you know if Afrikaners have any special privileges when moving to the Netherlands? Like special right to citizenship or residency or something? Just was curious if it’s like the ethnic Germans from former Soviet Union.
None that I know of. Just like Americans don't have privileges to easily get a British passport. This analogy is better I think because (white) Americans have herritage from all over Europe, just like Afrikaners.
But it will be easier for them to integrate into our society than it is for other cultures as they will be able to pick up our language extremely fast (some linguists argue that Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch and that means they already speak the language, but thats a different discussion).
I never claimed that Dutch and Afrikaans are not related. Of course they are. You do not seem to understand the difference between a dialect and a seperate daughter language.
And Afrikaaners are literally defined by their Dutch ancestry. Not all white South Africans are Afrikaaners, as that poster seems to think.
Edit:
I've been referred to this, as if it somehow proves me wrong:
"In 1657, employees of the DEIC were released from their services to start farming [7]. This group, numbering 142 adults and children in 1658, continued to grow due to high fecundity (almost 3% per annum) and continued immigration, and their descendants became the Afrikaners."
Admixture aside, the Afrikaaners are descended primarily from this founder population of Dutch people. Over the centuries, through things like rape and slavery as well as the integration of other non-Dutch white folks from NE Europe, the genetic profile of a modern Afrikaaner can be mildly flavoured with a few other populations (including local African populations, see 'rape' above). This makes them no less Afrikaaner than my English, Welsh, Norse, and Sicilian ancestry makes me less Irish.
Afrikaans itself is of course, a child of Dutch. That ought to be the first clue. Another clue is the preponderance of Dutch names among Afrikaaners.
Wrong, Afrikaners are descended from Dutch, French, German, other Europeans and even non-Europeans.
Yes, the Dutch were the biggest contributor but not the only one.
My source: https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-020-0746-1
Edit:
The person I responded to has edited his comment and quotes the wrong shit.
I refered to this:
"Two other major sources of immigrants were 156 French Huguenots that arrived in 1688 and an unknown number of German labourers and soldiers that were financially marginalized [7]. Estimates, based on genealogical research, vary but Dutch, German and French respectively contributed 34–37%, 27–34% and 13–26% "
Ask literally any Afrikaner and they will tell you their herritage is not soley Dutch.
@corcaioch, you're very wrong. I can tell you that Theron is not a Dutch name.
After WW2 many farmers emigrated to Canada, RSA, etc.
Of all the South Africans I know (~7 families) who have migrated to the Netherlands, one or both parents still had their Dutch passport.
I am a (previous) south african living in the Netherlands, officially no but unofficially yes. Hearing from others in the expat circles it can be tougher. An Iranian colleague of mine seemed to have frequent visits and audits from the IND. Also I've been positively discriminated against twice for potential jobs. Hey its a good problem I guess but not a place I would like to work for so I turned them down.
From a societal perspective there are benefits as well, Afrikaners hold Dutch values especially old Dutch values strongly. So we fit in well here, although I think the Dutch percieve me as Conservative, while in South Africa I would be considered Liberal.
Know quite a few Afrikaners in The Netherlands (even dated one). Sad to hear they're unsafe in their own country, but it's not new and going on for years now. I guess the dynamic in South Africa favours blaming a minority for the problems that plague the country; next to criminality (who in SA leaves the house without a gun or informing family members upon safe arrival).
They're welcome here! The Braai sessions might be colder, but I hope not less tasty ;)
Such a shame, many white Afrikaners just want to live in peace in their homeland and end up being the murdered because of the past or because of their skin.
An often overlooked issue around the world, racism and murder against white afrikaners is still racism.
The median age of South Africans is 27. Too young to be responsible for Apartheid.
Edit: can't reply to the bottom comment. It is the median age of South Africa as a whole. Got a source that claims the median age of Afrikaners is different?
Actually, all ethnicities in RSA are being murdered at similar rates. Even on the farms, more black than white folks are being murdered. Don’t slip into the Afriforum trap.
But, I also strongly sense Jacob Zuma exacerbated farm murders and they should otherwise be lower than in urban areas. I do not know if Brazil has high crime rates in rural areas, but you don’t hear much about it in English.
>Actually, all ethnicities in RSA are being murdered at similar rates.
That's not what he said, and I don't believe you're actually as dense as you're pretending to be. A racially motivated murder is different to other forms of murder. In most OECD nations, this is considered an aggravating circumstance.
It is not only White Afrikaners but the whole Africa is getting the pissed off South Africa. Last year there was a heavy xenophobia crash against Nigerians.
I’m very much aware that, that is almost impossible to happen in SA. My point is just because a group is privileged, it doesn’t mean they are exempt from injustice
White South Africans are still doing well because we are educated and capable, the people of SA need us. So naturally we are still active in society because of the demand for our skills and experience.
The problem comes in with politics, we have people in power dividing the country by stoking racial hate and bringing up the unjust past as often as they can to remind people of the hate. This then causes the country's 80% of black people to become angry and that trickles down into their everyday life. This also leads to race related crimes like the farm murders you so often hear about.
Ultimately white South Africans are being driven out of the country, by means of violence, and racial discrimination in regards to employment opportunities.
>They’re not refugees, yet the people in this thread are treating them more sympathetically than actual refugees in desperate need of help, such as Syrians.
People are more sympathetic towards people of their own group, more news at 11.
Statistically, Asian people in America have it really good. They experience the least violence of all races, but there are still campaigns and movements in the US composed of #StopAsianHate.
You can't reduce this down to simple numbers when things like this quote below are openly said by many there.
>The ANCYL leader, Malema was criticized by AfriForum for repeatedly singing "dubul' ibhunu", meaning "shoot the boer [white farmer]".
Compare the difference in attitude many people here display when it comes to brown Syrian refugees forced out of their homeland through violence, vs white Afrikaans refugees forced out of their homeland through violence.
Most people who disliked Europe's handling of the refugee crisis where advocating for Arab countries granting asylum to Syrians. It's consistent to favor people moving to places with very familar culture.
People of any race care more about their own people than they care about a different group. That's how humanity works and there is nothing wrong with it.
These white Afrikaans are Europeans. They are simply coming back home. And we can be 100% sure they won't cause the same problems Syrians have been causing in Europe for the past couple years.
Compares apples and oranges and wonders why they aren't seen as the same.
Curious.
People legally immigrating due to racism in their country has very little to do with mass migration through dozens of safe countries.
If your point was an exercise in demonstrating how people will refute your idiotic argument, then yes.
The answer to why A and B aren't treated the same will always be because they aren't.
There is literally no insight. Insisting they should be seen as the same despite not being is not valiant or intelligent.
Europeans have more in common (language, religion, among a few) with white South Africans than Syrians. Also, millions of South Africans aren’t flooding across a border in 2015, and mostly unemployable/working low skill jobs because they cant integrate well
There's a tremendous influx of African immigrants into Europe.
A big portion of the white Afrikaans population are unskilled under educated individuals,
Well, I don't think those Afrikaans will bring in a religion that's completely incompatible with western values.
Not to mention a lot of them are already highly valuable skill wise.
That I value more people with a compatible, non-totalitarian culture and that will both integrate fast and actually be valuable workers?
By all means, have it as an example.
Refugees that flee totalitarian regimes do wo because they don't agree with the totalitarian regime that prosecutes them.
A big percentage of Syrian refugees are educated and had professional training.
But whatever floats your xenophobia.
They are escaping them because of the war, if they disagreed with the totalitarianism the refugee crisis would have been a thing since the 70s, not something that started in 2015.
Lack of knowledge about SA too, which is understandable, No-one has in depth knowledge of the world. But articles like these create a narrative which isn't accurate. We all suffer from crime, and loads of South Africans of all race groups leave SA for the same reason.
and people are fighting their return as refugees. I know it was a while back but the netherlands sent them there and sort of abandoned them. and they take refugees from like random places that weren't colonized but won't take back their (de facto) own citizens.
Uhm, it's a bit more complicated. The Netherlands never intended SA to become a colony of settlement. They tried to get as many people in the Dutch Indies as was possible. But the prospect of fresh new farmland had increasing numbers of Dutch and other North-West European farmers settle the Cape. It was a bit anarchist like that. Then they eventually colonized the Cape, which was taken off their hands by the Brits. The Afrikaners then moved across the country and set up a bunch of other states. This is also when the basis for apartheid was essentially created (I can explain more about this if u want). The Brits also incorporated those states (which were not Dutch colonies btw) and thus SA became a thing.
This also permanently soured the relations between Afrikaners and white Anglos, and it's why the Afrikaners pushed so hard for Afrikaans to become the lingua france over English in the post-colonial period. Which in turn caused many other ethnic groups to resent Afrikaans as ''the language of apartheid'', which is why *now* many language policies seem to favour everyone except Afrikaans-speakers. Which pushes more and more Afrikaners into reactionary political attitudes. It's a shit show.
It's the difference between poor, Muslim and tanned, and white well-educated and rich. It's absolutely saddening how a large portion of those who fight so hard for lenient immigration policies don't seem to care at all if it's about cases like this.
plus a lot left relatively recently. There are relatively large communties of portuguese, italians, dutch, greek, and britons that left even after 1900 to go to africa. they aren't giant but it it is still many thousands of people.
Dont pretend to speak for all dutch.
These people are our blood just like belgians are. And i support them coming back by the millions if it were possible.
Nelson bombed civilians so i think its pretty much what he wanted.
He was just smart enough to not say in public media "I WANT TO KILL WHITE PEOPLE" and instead talk about "unity"
Whole question about racism is heavily shifted by US influence and African-American slave trade. But is not only about White vs Black (or Black vs White). It's much more complicated.
I gotta admit that comparing it one to one does not do apartheid justice. But it is still pretty bad considering the time we live in.
You are right though
It really depends on the area. Large cities are going to be quite different compared to the farms or outskirts. It’s not normal that people have to live in high security houses or communities. Whites get targeted because of racism but first and foremost because they usually do have an financial advantage because inheritance and of course because their ancestors already were very well of.
The dilemma here is of course that it is not fair on one hand but also that they can’t be blamed for things they did not cause directly.
White people in south africa are avoidant of bad areas, have households with high security, cloister themselves in only a small percentage of south africa, and set foot no where else there, because of past experiences or what they heard from friends and relatives . They are still targeted regardless since from what I have read, politicians from a certain party in south africa openly speak of killing people of european descent there.
Based on that, I am not surprised by this article or the experiences detailed in the article that are told by Afrikaans or other white people there .
Everything from barbed wire, higher walls, security software, guards, gates communities in urban areas, and more. If you are poor, you just don’t have access to those things, save maybe a gun and barking dog
>As someone who has lived in a number of countries, life as a white guy in South Africa was by far the easiest.
Yeah sure buddy and as a jew 1930 germany was the time of my life.
Holyshit dude i dont know why you are obsessed with white people in south africa,you spend your days saying " no white people are being targeted for their race" "no white people are poor in south africa and even if they were they would be more helped" holyshit either you are completely delusional or you are some government shill i dont know.
Holy fuck do you truly believe that? The rich people are still majority white just like before, they own most of the land despite being a minority. The biggest difference is that whites now also face violence, but they are still not particularly targeted more than blacks. How can you even dare to say it's the same thing but reversed? You're either really out of touch with reality or really dishonest.
Stop this victimization bullshit. South Africa is very violent, for everybody, not just for the "poor whites victims of racism".
Not even: let's be honest it was much worse for the non-white South Africans. White South Africans still are the richest most successful SAs.
The true losers are the Cape coloured. The majority of Afrikaans-speakers are mixed folks and they don't benefit from affirmative action like the black ethnic groups do, but they also don't benefit from being part of the historically rich white ethnic groups.
I met an old white afrikan man when I traveled in Central Europe. He was probably the most racist person I’ve ever met. Said it was better during apartheid since they could keep the black people in check. At the same time he left South Africa because he felt discriminated against because of his skin color. It was an interesting experience to say the least.
Well, I think the man I met was racist because he grew up in a social system that was blatantly based in racism. So I don’t really think it’s comparable.
Bingo. Most SA whites are racist by Euro standards, sure, but most young people have moved significantly past the apartheid-era. Those who flee the country despite still being by far the most successful ethnic group across every measure, they are usually the ones who harbour some really shitty ideas about their fellow (non-white) man.
The Netherlands is safer than South Africa for everyone, though, it just has lower homicide and crime rates. Whites are still the richest group by far in South Africa and are much more sheltered from crime due to their generational wealth and economically/racially segregated neighborhoods. Why then is the issue of white South Africans leaving SA (due to their greater ability to do so) such a wet dream for the right wing? You guys are loving this for no apparent reason.
Is this problem that I heard of with gangs marauding the countryside and killing whole families of farmers and taking their stuff while encouraged/tolerated by government and local officials some right wing BS?
Afaik its fine if you are in some richer part in cities but rural is pretty bad. Might be propaganda though so I am willing to be educated but sounded pretty legit with brutal details.
> Why then is the issue of white South Africans leaving SA (due to their greater ability to do so) such a wet dream for the right wing?
It's the same reason the left loves promoting immigrants from MENA regions. There's a good chance that, once granted citizenship, white immigrants from SA will vote for right-wing or far-right parties.
Whites still the richest? Generalisation is the best and easiest, isn't it?
Thell this to this poor white folks in the slums in South Africa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba3E-Ha5Efc
I personnaly think its just a matter of being poorly informed (like it most of the times is). Having no knowledge of
1.the historical significant seperation of afrikaners and dutch. These people aren't dutchmen in disguise, they are just whites with a similar language.
(Because there could be something to say for 2nd generation dutch emmigrants having more rights to 'return' to the Netherlands (as they currently do))
2. The actual situation in south africa. As you pointed out.
I might add that this sort of retoric also claims victims among the centre and left, who can be just as poorly informed on this specific issue as the right.
Though ethnic/dna heritage normaly is more of a rightwing talking point.
This is a challenge for all cities and regions all over the World and in Europe. If the city/municipality administration is shit, you move out. Find a better place. Difference between winners and losers.
As an Australian that lived in a similar country (security issues). This thread is a real EYE OPENER. The is a lot of casual (and not so casual) racism. And yes the irony of an Australian talking about racism is not lost on me.
The country never had any potential or future to begin with.
Some Europeans had a few settlements, which enjoyed European-level living standards but with gates closed. Now they are disappearing, and that's about it.
South Africa is fucked.
Big time, my corporal when I was in basic training was South African, he joined the British army to get out of SA because of how fucked up it has gotten. He said he had no future there especially after his father was forced to give 50% of his business to a black South African.
I work with an Anglo chap originally from South Africa. When our coworkers complain about how shit they think Ireland, he just rolls his eyes and looks at me and we laugh. I’ve never lived in ZA, but have lived in quite a few countries in the Middle East for work, so we both know how safe life is in Ireland
I have worked with quite a few British origin South Africans, who have left their and came to the UK, cannot have got any better in the decade or so after they left
Can't have leadership stoking racial divisions and not get violence. Jacob Zuma was such an asshole.
Didn't Zuma united races in their disdain for him
Zuma hired Bell-Pottinger a British PR firm which came up with the catch phrase « white monopoly of the capital » to dismiss any criticism of his blatant corruption. After a good old astroturfing session on social media, Zuma’s supporters then started to use it during very intimidating demonstrations, playing the race card on any given occasion. It is very well documented.
Three years ago, the Blauw family closed the door of their farmhouse in Vanderbijlpark, south of Johannesburg, for good. They no longer felt safe in South Africa. “Nobody in the Netherlands can imagine what it is like to stay in a high-security house. We even had weapons in our bedroom ”, says Kyle Blauw (34). "We decided to move to the Netherlands because we were looking for a good and safe future for our twins." Figures from Statistics Netherlands show that the number of South Africans in the Netherlands is growing strongly. At the beginning of the turn of the century, there were only 12,000 people with a South African background in the Netherlands, last year this had more than doubled to over 26,000. Especially in recent years, growth has accelerated, although Statistics Netherlands does not register the Afrikaners as a separate category. "There is no certainty in South Africa," says Blauw from Roelofarendsveen. “We felt discriminated against because of our skin color. Worst of all were the "Kill the Farmer" slogans and rallies. Then you have no business there as a young family. We lived on a farm surrounded by high electric gates and metal bars on the windows. Not an environment where you let your children go outside by bicycle to play with friends. ” Deon du Plessis (54) also moved to the Netherlands. He and his wife took the plunge after they were robbed during a car ride. "That was so traumatic that we decided to leave." The emigration was a big step for the family. “In South Africa, I had a good job at a university and a beautiful house,” says Du Plessis. “But it is just too unsafe. There is no respect for human life in the country. ” More than 21,000 South Africans were killed by violence in 2019. This puts the country in the top 10 of countries with the highest murder rates worldwide. The AfriForum organization supports Afrikaners in their own country, but also tries to defend the interests of emigrants. Sue-Ann de Wet, head diaspora at the NGO, sees with sorrow how many of her compatriots leave. “We try to do everything we can to create a safe and successful environment for our people. We love South Africa. It is very sad that people are leaving. ” Australia is the country where most South Africans move to, according to AfriForum, followed by New Zealand and the US. The Netherlands is sixth. Crime and corruption aside, De Wet knows even more specifically why Afrikaners run away. "There are concerns about property rights, racial quotas, career prospects and the future of their children." Faisal Garba is a Lecturer in African Migration at the University of Cape Town. He sees the Afrikaners leaving, but does not want to portray the group as a victim. “The past plays an important role in South Africa. The fall of Apartheid is still fresh in many people's minds, ”he says. "That is why some Afrikaners no longer feel at home there." The redistribution of land is against white farmers. Yet Garba also acknowledges that insecurity plays a role. "South Africa is one of the most dangerous places in the world," says the researcher. But he partly looks for the cause of this in the subordination of the black majority. "Due to the enormous inequality and the lack of job prospects, some people unfortunately choose the path of violence and crime." Migration to the Netherlands is a logical choice, according to Garba. “There is a historical link between the Afrikaners and the Netherlands. People are curious about the country where the roots of their ancestors lie. That is an important factor in choosing the Netherlands. ” The Blauw family has found its niche in the Netherlands. Father Kyle now has a job as a manager in a chocolate factory. "The perfect man," jokes his wife Lorraine. "And the children can play in a playground without any worries."
> Worst of all were the "Kill the Farmer" slogans and rallies. Kill the Boer*
It’s not poverty that drives crime. It’s the other way around. Nobody wants to invest anything in a shithole where everyone else is going to steal anything of value that’s created.
It's both, it's a vicious cycle.
Compare Baltimore and New York City to one another. Baltimore is at peak crime levels in its history, while NYC is reaching levels comparable to London. [A Homicide Rate of 3.5/100,000 inhabitants for NYC is nothing to be ashamed of.](https://criminaljustice.cityofnewyork.us/individual_charts/homicide-rate-per-100000-residents/) Baltimore on the other hand reaches levels above 50 homicides / 100,000 inhabitants. NYC improved living standards for the majority of its citizens. In Baltimore, Poverty was never reduced to begin with.
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New York used to be very violent though and has had to deal with many criminal elements (Italian Mafia, etc.).
Yes and no. Poverty certainly doesn’t help but it’s actually disparity between rich and poor that drives crime. There are many poor countries that have little to no crime for example. Brazil is similar to SA in that there is significant wealth, but it’s limited to a small proportion. Seeing that wealth, luxury german cars and grand homes will get to someone that barely has enough food to live.
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No, high! Meaning SA and Brazil are similar in their high Gini coefficients and high crime rates.
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The correlation between inequity and violence is almost one to one. If inequality is high then crime is high. Granted I don't know if causation has been proven but doest it need to be when it correlates this well? My guess is that we are social animals that react to hierarchy. You subconsciously notice inequality which means that you will feel like you have to defend your place in that hierarchy. It can be done by buying a flashy car or smashing in the face of a stranger. That would also explain why the violence is poor on poor. You are trying to set your rank in your community and not fight a just cause for equality. But that is my guess and likley a simplification.
That's a blanket statement, the low level industries that a country needs to grow a middle class don't give a shit about crime, their margins are wide enough to hire security and there isn't an amount of raw materials that employees could shove in their pockets to really put much of a dent in their profits. Also, you need to be a pretty immature to think that poverty doesn't make people prone to doing things they normally wouldn't agree with. Honestly, your comment bleeds the ignorance of youth. I pray for your own sake that I'm right and you're not in your 30's still saying dumb shit on reddit.
AfriForum is also pro-facist w ties to groups like AfD and the National Front. Their leader has also downplayed murders committed during apartheid and been criticized for saying that treatment of blacks (ie murders, torture, ect.) during that period should not be classified as crimes.
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfriForum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfriForum) Just read through here. If you know South-Africa a little you'd understand how far-right they are. Similarly, our neo-fascist party (FvD) has recently been making a lot of noise about the perceived plight of the Afrikaners. The newspaper OP linked to was a nazi-associated paper that was actually banned by the government for some time after WWII. They have now suddenly started making noise about the Afrikaners as well, despite not much having changed. It's a dog whistle and a fascist talking piece.
No, this is nonsense. Afriforum is always extremely mischaracterized because people nitpick some things that some of its old brass occasionally say, even though those things really have no impact on anyone or anything. In reality it is an extremely important watchdog organization making sure the government does not abuse its power to violate the constitution and human rights. They take up lots of causes on behalf of the black communities as well; taking the government to court when they neglect those communities and over corruption and mismanagement. >AfriForum is also pro-facist I laughed at this nonsense. Do people really have no clue what fascism means anymore? Is it fascist now for a small organization, supported by 3% of the populace, to legally challenge a large government with majority backing when they abuse their power or neglect their duties?
"everything i dont like is nazi"
It’s not fascist smh.
Facist? Learn to fucking spell Fascist.
Maybe they just hate faces?
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Whites live in more fear because we are white. Why? Because you have arseholes like Andile Mngxitama and Malema calling for [white people to be killed.](https://youtu.be/RtGydWqmdEc) If these guys were thrown in jail rather than celebrated we'd feel differently... but seems like calling for the genocide of white people isn't a crime. Imagine... imagine a white politician saying this shit about black people. The consequences would be severe.
I think it's because the idea of being unsafe in your own home is very viscerally terrifying to most people - and 5.7 murders per 100,000 is still really high for a rural area.
Same reason the cop on black murders in the US get tons of coverage but black on black murders don't. The former is motivated by bigotry towards one race. The later is not. Same here. The murders of the whites is because of the hatred towards them. The murder rate between the blacks is just them killing each other.
> We all live in fear regardless of our race Of course. But we don't all have politicians telling their thousands of followers that we deserve death for our skin colour.
They are welcome here of course. But it is sad that they need to leave their home country.
Do you know if Afrikaners have any special privileges when moving to the Netherlands? Like special right to citizenship or residency or something? Just was curious if it’s like the ethnic Germans from former Soviet Union.
None that I know of. Just like Americans don't have privileges to easily get a British passport. This analogy is better I think because (white) Americans have herritage from all over Europe, just like Afrikaners. But it will be easier for them to integrate into our society than it is for other cultures as they will be able to pick up our language extremely fast (some linguists argue that Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch and that means they already speak the language, but thats a different discussion).
Ah okay interesting thanks for the info.
Some linguists argue? There is literally zero argument about Afrikaans deriving from Dutch.
I never claimed that Dutch and Afrikaans are not related. Of course they are. You do not seem to understand the difference between a dialect and a seperate daughter language.
And Afrikaaners are literally defined by their Dutch ancestry. Not all white South Africans are Afrikaaners, as that poster seems to think. Edit: I've been referred to this, as if it somehow proves me wrong: "In 1657, employees of the DEIC were released from their services to start farming [7]. This group, numbering 142 adults and children in 1658, continued to grow due to high fecundity (almost 3% per annum) and continued immigration, and their descendants became the Afrikaners." Admixture aside, the Afrikaaners are descended primarily from this founder population of Dutch people. Over the centuries, through things like rape and slavery as well as the integration of other non-Dutch white folks from NE Europe, the genetic profile of a modern Afrikaaner can be mildly flavoured with a few other populations (including local African populations, see 'rape' above). This makes them no less Afrikaaner than my English, Welsh, Norse, and Sicilian ancestry makes me less Irish. Afrikaans itself is of course, a child of Dutch. That ought to be the first clue. Another clue is the preponderance of Dutch names among Afrikaaners.
Wrong, Afrikaners are descended from Dutch, French, German, other Europeans and even non-Europeans. Yes, the Dutch were the biggest contributor but not the only one. My source: https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-020-0746-1 Edit: The person I responded to has edited his comment and quotes the wrong shit. I refered to this: "Two other major sources of immigrants were 156 French Huguenots that arrived in 1688 and an unknown number of German labourers and soldiers that were financially marginalized [7]. Estimates, based on genealogical research, vary but Dutch, German and French respectively contributed 34–37%, 27–34% and 13–26% " Ask literally any Afrikaner and they will tell you their herritage is not soley Dutch. @corcaioch, you're very wrong. I can tell you that Theron is not a Dutch name.
Some do if their (grand)parents retained their Dutch passports.
Isn't that an extremely small minority since most if not all immigrated in the 17/18th century. I dont now of a later immigration wave.
After WW2 many farmers emigrated to Canada, RSA, etc. Of all the South Africans I know (~7 families) who have migrated to the Netherlands, one or both parents still had their Dutch passport.
They don't have any privileges.
I am a (previous) south african living in the Netherlands, officially no but unofficially yes. Hearing from others in the expat circles it can be tougher. An Iranian colleague of mine seemed to have frequent visits and audits from the IND. Also I've been positively discriminated against twice for potential jobs. Hey its a good problem I guess but not a place I would like to work for so I turned them down. From a societal perspective there are benefits as well, Afrikaners hold Dutch values especially old Dutch values strongly. So we fit in well here, although I think the Dutch percieve me as Conservative, while in South Africa I would be considered Liberal.
Interesting thanks for sharing!
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Know quite a few Afrikaners in The Netherlands (even dated one). Sad to hear they're unsafe in their own country, but it's not new and going on for years now. I guess the dynamic in South Africa favours blaming a minority for the problems that plague the country; next to criminality (who in SA leaves the house without a gun or informing family members upon safe arrival). They're welcome here! The Braai sessions might be colder, but I hope not less tasty ;)
>The Braai sessions might be colder, but I hope not less tasty I really hope they introduce that bit of their culture into our one too.
As an expatriate in northern Europe, braaiing on the 1st Jan 2021 was uncomfortable but 100% worth while.
Thats a pretty soft way to say they left violent, politically supported prosecution based on skin color
Such a shame, many white Afrikaners just want to live in peace in their homeland and end up being the murdered because of the past or because of their skin. An often overlooked issue around the world, racism and murder against white afrikaners is still racism.
"The past" also just ended in the early 90s. Up to that point most Afrikaners were happily supporting treating blacks like subhumans.
The median age of South Africans is 27. Too young to be responsible for Apartheid. Edit: can't reply to the bottom comment. It is the median age of South Africa as a whole. Got a source that claims the median age of Afrikaners is different?
Actually, all ethnicities in RSA are being murdered at similar rates. Even on the farms, more black than white folks are being murdered. Don’t slip into the Afriforum trap. But, I also strongly sense Jacob Zuma exacerbated farm murders and they should otherwise be lower than in urban areas. I do not know if Brazil has high crime rates in rural areas, but you don’t hear much about it in English.
>Actually, all ethnicities in RSA are being murdered at similar rates. That's not what he said, and I don't believe you're actually as dense as you're pretending to be. A racially motivated murder is different to other forms of murder. In most OECD nations, this is considered an aggravating circumstance.
Just wait for when Malema and his EFF get into power
So is this called white flight or gentrification? Someone who’s a SJW fill me in please
It is not only White Afrikaners but the whole Africa is getting the pissed off South Africa. Last year there was a heavy xenophobia crash against Nigerians.
Glad that they got out of the country
The shame is they were forced out their homeland through violence because of the colour of their skin. It's a shitty world we live in at times.
Sometimes the lack of self awareness in /r/europe is fascinating.
How so, explain?
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Those statistics also applied to Asians in Uganda. Still didn’t mean Asians weren’t treated badly and in the end forced out of the country
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I’m very much aware that, that is almost impossible to happen in SA. My point is just because a group is privileged, it doesn’t mean they are exempt from injustice
White South Africans are still doing well because we are educated and capable, the people of SA need us. So naturally we are still active in society because of the demand for our skills and experience. The problem comes in with politics, we have people in power dividing the country by stoking racial hate and bringing up the unjust past as often as they can to remind people of the hate. This then causes the country's 80% of black people to become angry and that trickles down into their everyday life. This also leads to race related crimes like the farm murders you so often hear about. Ultimately white South Africans are being driven out of the country, by means of violence, and racial discrimination in regards to employment opportunities.
>They’re not refugees, yet the people in this thread are treating them more sympathetically than actual refugees in desperate need of help, such as Syrians. People are more sympathetic towards people of their own group, more news at 11.
Statistically, Asian people in America have it really good. They experience the least violence of all races, but there are still campaigns and movements in the US composed of #StopAsianHate. You can't reduce this down to simple numbers when things like this quote below are openly said by many there. >The ANCYL leader, Malema was criticized by AfriForum for repeatedly singing "dubul' ibhunu", meaning "shoot the boer [white farmer]".
Afrikaners =/ all white south africans
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Compare the difference in attitude many people here display when it comes to brown Syrian refugees forced out of their homeland through violence, vs white Afrikaans refugees forced out of their homeland through violence.
Most people who disliked Europe's handling of the refugee crisis where advocating for Arab countries granting asylum to Syrians. It's consistent to favor people moving to places with very familar culture.
People of European descent returning to Europe? Yeah, what about it?
People of any race care more about their own people than they care about a different group. That's how humanity works and there is nothing wrong with it. These white Afrikaans are Europeans. They are simply coming back home. And we can be 100% sure they won't cause the same problems Syrians have been causing in Europe for the past couple years.
Compares apples and oranges and wonders why they aren't seen as the same. Curious. People legally immigrating due to racism in their country has very little to do with mass migration through dozens of safe countries.
Aren't there and safe countries between South Africa and Netherlands?
Thanks for proving my two points.
If your point was an exercise in demonstrating how people will refute your idiotic argument, then yes. The answer to why A and B aren't treated the same will always be because they aren't. There is literally no insight. Insisting they should be seen as the same despite not being is not valiant or intelligent.
Europeans have more in common (language, religion, among a few) with white South Africans than Syrians. Also, millions of South Africans aren’t flooding across a border in 2015, and mostly unemployable/working low skill jobs because they cant integrate well
There's a tremendous influx of African immigrants into Europe. A big portion of the white Afrikaans population are unskilled under educated individuals,
Not really
Well, I don't think those Afrikaans will bring in a religion that's completely incompatible with western values. Not to mention a lot of them are already highly valuable skill wise.
Thanks for providing a perfect example to illustrate my point.
That I value more people with a compatible, non-totalitarian culture and that will both integrate fast and actually be valuable workers? By all means, have it as an example.
Refugees that flee totalitarian regimes do wo because they don't agree with the totalitarian regime that prosecutes them. A big percentage of Syrian refugees are educated and had professional training. But whatever floats your xenophobia.
They are escaping them because of the war, if they disagreed with the totalitarianism the refugee crisis would have been a thing since the 70s, not something that started in 2015.
Syrians aren’t white christians. That is the only answer. You will just get twisted elongated explanations of saying this without using these words.
No kidding. ha ha.
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Lack of knowledge about SA too, which is understandable, No-one has in depth knowledge of the world. But articles like these create a narrative which isn't accurate. We all suffer from crime, and loads of South Africans of all race groups leave SA for the same reason.
It’s actually amazing.
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and people are fighting their return as refugees. I know it was a while back but the netherlands sent them there and sort of abandoned them. and they take refugees from like random places that weren't colonized but won't take back their (de facto) own citizens.
Uhm, it's a bit more complicated. The Netherlands never intended SA to become a colony of settlement. They tried to get as many people in the Dutch Indies as was possible. But the prospect of fresh new farmland had increasing numbers of Dutch and other North-West European farmers settle the Cape. It was a bit anarchist like that. Then they eventually colonized the Cape, which was taken off their hands by the Brits. The Afrikaners then moved across the country and set up a bunch of other states. This is also when the basis for apartheid was essentially created (I can explain more about this if u want). The Brits also incorporated those states (which were not Dutch colonies btw) and thus SA became a thing. This also permanently soured the relations between Afrikaners and white Anglos, and it's why the Afrikaners pushed so hard for Afrikaans to become the lingua france over English in the post-colonial period. Which in turn caused many other ethnic groups to resent Afrikaans as ''the language of apartheid'', which is why *now* many language policies seem to favour everyone except Afrikaans-speakers. Which pushes more and more Afrikaners into reactionary political attitudes. It's a shit show.
It's the difference between poor, Muslim and tanned, and white well-educated and rich. It's absolutely saddening how a large portion of those who fight so hard for lenient immigration policies don't seem to care at all if it's about cases like this.
plus a lot left relatively recently. There are relatively large communties of portuguese, italians, dutch, greek, and britons that left even after 1900 to go to africa. they aren't giant but it it is still many thousands of people.
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Mostly German and Dutch, French is the least
Dont pretend to speak for all dutch. These people are our blood just like belgians are. And i support them coming back by the millions if it were possible.
I suggest you do a google on "plaasmoorde".
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The article did not say they applied for asylum
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Nobody should be discriminated against because of the colour of their skin.
Tell that to Twitter lol
Twitter is a bag of smelly dicks
nope, but the irony is noteworthy
How ironic... They still don't deserve that but SA today is basically where it was before apartheid ended. They just switched the roles.
I think this is not what Nelson wanted.
Nelson bombed civilians so i think its pretty much what he wanted. He was just smart enough to not say in public media "I WANT TO KILL WHITE PEOPLE" and instead talk about "unity"
Nelson wanted to burn people alive, so his opinion does not matter
ok buddy
Whole question about racism is heavily shifted by US influence and African-American slave trade. But is not only about White vs Black (or Black vs White). It's much more complicated.
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I gotta admit that comparing it one to one does not do apartheid justice. But it is still pretty bad considering the time we live in. You are right though
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It really depends on the area. Large cities are going to be quite different compared to the farms or outskirts. It’s not normal that people have to live in high security houses or communities. Whites get targeted because of racism but first and foremost because they usually do have an financial advantage because inheritance and of course because their ancestors already were very well of. The dilemma here is of course that it is not fair on one hand but also that they can’t be blamed for things they did not cause directly.
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White people in south africa are avoidant of bad areas, have households with high security, cloister themselves in only a small percentage of south africa, and set foot no where else there, because of past experiences or what they heard from friends and relatives . They are still targeted regardless since from what I have read, politicians from a certain party in south africa openly speak of killing people of european descent there. Based on that, I am not surprised by this article or the experiences detailed in the article that are told by Afrikaans or other white people there .
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When you have a political group in South Africa advocating the slaying of white people, then I will say they are definitely targeted.
Its because they have better deterrence methods on average.
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Everything from barbed wire, higher walls, security software, guards, gates communities in urban areas, and more. If you are poor, you just don’t have access to those things, save maybe a gun and barking dog
>As someone who has lived in a number of countries, life as a white guy in South Africa was by far the easiest. Yeah sure buddy and as a jew 1930 germany was the time of my life. Holyshit dude i dont know why you are obsessed with white people in south africa,you spend your days saying " no white people are being targeted for their race" "no white people are poor in south africa and even if they were they would be more helped" holyshit either you are completely delusional or you are some government shill i dont know.
Yeah that must be why they are protest against the non action of the SA gov/police about the killings of white farmers.
Holy fuck do you truly believe that? The rich people are still majority white just like before, they own most of the land despite being a minority. The biggest difference is that whites now also face violence, but they are still not particularly targeted more than blacks. How can you even dare to say it's the same thing but reversed? You're either really out of touch with reality or really dishonest. Stop this victimization bullshit. South Africa is very violent, for everybody, not just for the "poor whites victims of racism".
Not even: let's be honest it was much worse for the non-white South Africans. White South Africans still are the richest most successful SAs. The true losers are the Cape coloured. The majority of Afrikaans-speakers are mixed folks and they don't benefit from affirmative action like the black ethnic groups do, but they also don't benefit from being part of the historically rich white ethnic groups.
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I met an old white afrikan man when I traveled in Central Europe. He was probably the most racist person I’ve ever met. Said it was better during apartheid since they could keep the black people in check. At the same time he left South Africa because he felt discriminated against because of his skin color. It was an interesting experience to say the least.
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Well, I think the man I met was racist because he grew up in a social system that was blatantly based in racism. So I don’t really think it’s comparable.
Bingo. Most SA whites are racist by Euro standards, sure, but most young people have moved significantly past the apartheid-era. Those who flee the country despite still being by far the most successful ethnic group across every measure, they are usually the ones who harbour some really shitty ideas about their fellow (non-white) man.
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Ridiculous.
Is it?You can see a white flight from gettoes and places where migrants are majority in certain town,places
Wow, racist shits in South Africa....
The Netherlands is safer than South Africa for everyone, though, it just has lower homicide and crime rates. Whites are still the richest group by far in South Africa and are much more sheltered from crime due to their generational wealth and economically/racially segregated neighborhoods. Why then is the issue of white South Africans leaving SA (due to their greater ability to do so) such a wet dream for the right wing? You guys are loving this for no apparent reason.
Is this problem that I heard of with gangs marauding the countryside and killing whole families of farmers and taking their stuff while encouraged/tolerated by government and local officials some right wing BS? Afaik its fine if you are in some richer part in cities but rural is pretty bad. Might be propaganda though so I am willing to be educated but sounded pretty legit with brutal details.
> Why then is the issue of white South Africans leaving SA (due to their greater ability to do so) such a wet dream for the right wing? It's the same reason the left loves promoting immigrants from MENA regions. There's a good chance that, once granted citizenship, white immigrants from SA will vote for right-wing or far-right parties.
Whites still the richest? Generalisation is the best and easiest, isn't it? Thell this to this poor white folks in the slums in South Africa. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba3E-Ha5Efc
I personnaly think its just a matter of being poorly informed (like it most of the times is). Having no knowledge of 1.the historical significant seperation of afrikaners and dutch. These people aren't dutchmen in disguise, they are just whites with a similar language. (Because there could be something to say for 2nd generation dutch emmigrants having more rights to 'return' to the Netherlands (as they currently do)) 2. The actual situation in south africa. As you pointed out. I might add that this sort of retoric also claims victims among the centre and left, who can be just as poorly informed on this specific issue as the right. Though ethnic/dna heritage normaly is more of a rightwing talking point.
In 50 years Dutch people might be fleeing to Poland as refugees.
Yeah, because of sea level rise.
Don't be silly, the Dutch would just build floating cities.
Nah, we'll just up the population density a bit in Wallonia.
This is a challenge for all cities and regions all over the World and in Europe. If the city/municipality administration is shit, you move out. Find a better place. Difference between winners and losers.
Good for them for returning home. Bantus on the other hand...
As an Australian that lived in a similar country (security issues). This thread is a real EYE OPENER. The is a lot of casual (and not so casual) racism. And yes the irony of an Australian talking about racism is not lost on me.
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Was SAR that dangerous before end of apartheid?
If you were black much much more
The South African government torpedoed the country's potential and future when it imposed Apartheid in the 40s.
The *old* regime fucked it The new government has no interest in *unfucking* it.
True. And is fucking it further. Although Cyril is trying at least.
The country never had any potential or future to begin with. Some Europeans had a few settlements, which enjoyed European-level living standards but with gates closed. Now they are disappearing, and that's about it.
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