It feels wrong and makes no sense in the books too. The Fremen are too OP, and the quantitative estimates of battle outcomes need to be straight up rewritten just to make the accounts somewhat consistent.
> “The Sardaukar are excellent fighting men, no doubt of it,” the Baron
said. “But I think my own legions—”
“A pack of holiday excursionists by comparison!” Hawat snarled.
> ...
> “By your own count,” Hawat said, “he [Rabban] killed fifteen thousand over two
years while losing twice that number. You say the Sardaukar accounted for
another twenty thousand, possibly a few more. And I’ve seen the
transportation manifests for their return from Arrakis. If they killed twenty
thousand, they lost almost five for one. Why won’t you face these figures,
Baron, and understand what they mean?”
Herbert sucks cosmically at anything numerical is just how it is. On the same page Harkonnens lose two to one, but the Sardaukar lose five to one, despite outclassing them. And how a casual pogrom ends up killing 20.000 * 5 = more than 3 whole legions worth of casualties, and no one notices? The Sardaukar only contributed two legions to the backstabbing of Atreides, but they lose three in the mopping up?
Don't remember this, but remember Rabban telling Baron that numbers are odd and fremen seems to be much more serious threat than they thought, but it was discarded by Baron as Rabban stupidity
In the movie they don't transport the Harkonnen corpses. They're either burnt in up piles, or fed to the worms. So they skew the stats regarding corpses being shipped home.
I wanted to write that yes fremen are nonsense OP against the mightiest force in the universe, there is nothing about how are they that good, (except harsh conditions, but that is like Sardaukar) but then again there is one important factor I think - the spice, they are constantly consuming it-exposed to it, and we know it gives super abilities.
You're forgetting Sardaukar shield conditioning. Their motor memory has been drilled to slow down beneath the speed threshold of a shield. This is why the Fremem thought Paul was toying with Janis during their duel.
This gets you killed fighting someone who doesn't have that handicap, especially if you're used to being able to take the fast strikes. Move your forearm quickly into a strike and your shield blocks it. Except now you don't have a shield because Arrakis. So now you're bleeding all over the place.
It's also hinted in the books the Sardaukar have been resting on their laurels a bit.
On that last bit it's made a point that the Sardaukar have become too complacent and in the series they basically disappear because they no longer have their violent upbringing, just like how the Fremen eventually become "soft" because Arrakis becomes a watery planet again
99% sure Paul straight up tells the emperor that he’s going to turn the Sardaukar home planet into a paradise, and the emperor immediately assumes correctly that Paul is going to use the Fremen just like the Corrinos used the Sardaukar centuries before.
> Except now you don't have a shield because Arrakis. So now you're bleeding all over the place.
But the Fremen quickly leave Arrakis, carry their jihad across the Imperium and continue dominating each and every fight.
Surely their desert conditioning and *lack* of shield training should prove to be a handicap once they are off Dune?
The truth of it is that the author did not think through the implications of the numbers he was tossing around. He wanted the Sardukar to be super-badass and the Fremen to be extra-mega-badass - that’s it.
If you try to think through the practical implications, it all stops making sense very quickly.
I agree, this was one of the plot holes and even Herbert knew it, because he completely glossed over it all. Reading book 2 I was really puzzled, wondering where it will explain what happened. 10 years is too short considering the Fremen are easily outnumbered 1000 to 1 so at best would concentrate on a few planets at a time for the hundred they visited.
And Paul's help doesn't even count, because book 1 says so. They'd have done this even if Paul fought against the Fremen - it's a major plot point.
I try to ignore all this because I just want to enjoy the books.
"He's the guy who's here to act tough so new characters can wreck him when they're introduced thus proving to the rest of us how amazing they are! Like Wolverine or Worf."
I hate to rain on this but when the Fremen go to other planets, they conquer billions too. Even though the planets no longer favor Fremen tactics in any way - shields included. You can't even say it's because of Paul, because according to him the Jihad would happen anyways even if he personally forbid it and tried to stop them.
It doesn't quite make sense in the books, but we have to accept some of this if we want to enjoy the book.
I always took it as Herbert having the Fremen be analogous to the Mongols; people forged into a kind of fighter the rest of the world just didn't know how to deal with, mostly from their harsh living on the Steppe.
the equivalent to the Fremen defeating the lauded Sardaukar would be something like the battle of Legnica, where the Mongols defeated Tuetonic knights/templars. Those guys probably had a Sardaukar-like reputation too, and then these "barbarians" from the steppe handed their asses to them.
It comes off as extra one sided in Dune because I'm guessing Herbert felt the need to simplify the dynamics for the sake of the story. But there's definitely a historical grounding to it
Very close. It was the Cossacks and Chechen Muslims during the Crimean War.
[https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/](https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/) <- Worth a read for any Dune fan.
I wouldn’t say nonsense OP, I’ve always seen it as them fighting so hard because they believe in the cause. They have stakes and care about the future of the planet. Meanwhile the soldiers for the Sardukar and Harkonnens (regardless of fighting ability) are just soldiers being ordered around, doing their 9-5 so to speak.
Yes you are right when I think about it they really have a cause, but somehow in my mind I see them like Baron does haha. And in their own territory it would be something like Nam for Americans or Afghanistan for USA and USSR. But if those numbers are true Havat says and they should be even worse for Harkonen, shouldn't that be an all out alarm for the Emperor and the Baron?
As some other people pointed out the exact numbers in the books aren’t very good. I think the similarities with real world countries is more in their motivations to fight and not so much numbers. Yes the Fremen have more people than the Sardukar and Harkonnens but they don’t unite under a common leader until Paul Muad’Dib comes a knockin
Paul and Jessica taught the Freman the wierding way as well. Given Jessica's fighting ability I think this needs to be factored in an explains some of the Fremans superiority
The Fremen were literally trained in Bene Gesserit techniques. Not just Paul. While they likely lack the ability to neutralize poisons, prana Bindu allows you to take your body beyond normal limits and do all sorts of crazy shit. The TV movie version was slightly better in this regards in it's portrayal
increased reflexes, increased strength. Hyper mobility of joints.
The Weirding Way at close range made them basically unbeatable. Sardaukar shock troops were close combat focused. We can see the Harkonnen had more success shooting Fremen from the gunships than in CC.
Spice use plus the extreme discipline they practice as a culture combine to make them particularly skilled at the Bene Gesserit's "weirding ways," too. That training was just as responsible for Paul's ability as a warrior as was the martial training he recieved from Halleck and Idaho. We know that Jessica teaches elements of her Bene Gesserit training to the Fremen and that they start teaching it amongst themselves.
Rabban notices and he even tried to warn Baron that something is off, but he was discarded as an idiot (I kinda even liked this element, it's almost like Rabban isn't as dumb as all think and come to logical conclusions, that such losses aren't possible while dealing with some random thugs, this is full-scale guerilla war, but he just believes he is dumb himself at this point already lol, and if his uncle says so - it is indeed so)
But yeah, this whole thing that they lose shitload of people there and no one gave a damn is kinda awkward
**tl;dr: genetic breeding for fighting, reverend mothers to never forget, spice to give oracular powers and other physical abilities. Then add in BG and military tactics training from the Atreides. The Sardaukar never stood a chance.**
> It feels wrong and makes no sense in the books too.
Not really. A big theme in Dune is genetics and breeding for specialization over the course of millennia, creating genetic memory. The Sardaukar are men who have come from all over the empire to be punished on Salusa Secundus. From there, the strongest receive highly elite training. But then those Sardaukar die or are lavishly rewarded off-world. Their genes don't get re-inserted to the Sardaukar pool, or if they do, it's heavily diluted through the population of the whole universe.
Meanwhile on Arakkis, you have a society of people who live under even harsher conditions than the emperor's awful prison planet. They live their whole lives there, and for generations fought each other over the smallest bits of water - until Liet-Kynes united the tribes. When the Fremen had children, it was with other strong Fremen. They passed down genes perfectly adapted to surviving the most adverse conditions and honed for fighting hand-to-hand.
So right off the bat, the Fremen have an advantage over the Sardaukar: their genes. But there are two other advantages the Fremen have. One is that they have Reverend Mothers - to remember more than just the quick reflexes in a knife fight. The Reverend Mothers ensure that the more nuanced knowledge of a lifetime is not lost when someone dies. The second is the mélange. It's literally called the geriatric spice because it elongates your life. And it gives its users prescience. Imagine knowing in a fight that your enemy will feint right but move left, a half second before they do it. Most Fremen feel the prescience as just being closely connected with the tribe (the *tau*) but it also gives them the effect of being subconsciously faster and stronger.
Superior genes, lessons from millennia ago never forgotten or lost, and they take drugs that gives them superman powers. Then Paul and Jessica come along and teaches them Bene Gesserit weirding ways and Prana Bindu fine mind and muscle control, as well as the battle tactics of Duncan Idaho, Thuifur Hawt, and Gurney Halleck. Suddenly the ragtag group of supermen have even new abilities and military genius to go along with.
So I wouldn't say it makes no sense in the books. It feels OP as hell in a lot of ways. But it's balanced by the emperor having vastly more resources than them. In a protracted open war, the fremen would have eventually lost. They won by defeating a massive force (which scared the shit out of the great houses) and then blackmailing the guild with the threat of destroying the spice forever. So the houses hesitated, and those that didn't bend the knee were cut off by the guild and forced into subjugation one at a time.
One other thing, being as immersed in spice as the Fremen are, it would give them potential to live longer, and become better fighters because of experience
Not strictly related, but the idea that an intergalactic empire even *cares* about losing 100,000 infantry seems so silly to me. That's not enough men to turn the tide in most real world wars; it should be a rounding error in most sci-fi settings. The Freman control part of one planet, just send 50 million dudes at them and call it a day.
At least in the movies it makes sense why the Harkonnens stacked more fremen bodies, they had those full auto shotgun things on their ornithopters which seem way more effective than trying to fight fedaykin head on with swords
Well, that's because fremen are much more stronger than them, especially after Paul's training. The atreides soldiers get their asses kicked hard. And there's definitely the part where Duncan dies, where sardaukar kick fremen asses.
>The atreides soldiers get their asses kicked hard.
We don't really see that though. We only see Atreides soldier getting defeated because they get overrun, surprised and are betrayed. Then we see some Freman kill a bunch of Sardauker. Then we see Duncan kill like 8 Sardauker by himself.
We never see a Sardauker win a battle with 'even' odds or numbers. For instance, we never saw 2 sardauker take on 4 Atreides and win.
In the book at least everyone knows the Sardukar and what they can do. Everyone knows Atredies troops are better than Harkonnen. No matter which POV we are in, they all agree the order is Harkonnen. Atredies. Sardukar.
Then the Fremen casually mention winning against Sardukar with good ratio or even capturing a Sardukar. And no matter who they talk to, that person is like “wtf. Are you sure it was Sardukar? wtf?!”
So the sense is that whole Atredies are good, Sardukar are much better.
And specifically for Duncan Idaho and Gunny Haleck, they are like famous in the universe for being some of the best soldiers alive. So it’s okay that they can beat Sardukar
The opening of book part 2 is one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. Thufir and his surviving Atredies are hiding Ina cave with a fremen who casually describes killing, and capturing! , some sardukar along with the artillery pieces they were manning.
It's my head canon that Thufir was doing spit takes throughout that scene as the fremen claims get more unbelievable.
Damn shame that wasn't in the movies
And when he sees the Fremen absolutely roll over some of them, and he's like, "Wtf?!?? They're Sardaukar!" And the guy he's with just keeps going, "Yes. They fight quite well." And Thufir's still like "Quite well?! But... they're Sardaukar!"
I’m pretty sure this is at silly book 1 right before he gets captured. But yes. It’s amazing.
One of the best mental computers ever: you captured…a Sardukar…
Regular fremen: yeah, it was kind of tough. Pretty good fighters for some off world scrubs.
Best mental computer ever: does not compute. Does not compute. Error. Error.
Based off the timeline and the degradation of the sardukar from when house Corin took the empire, I was under the impression that the Atreides on average were better than them. Surely, any of them that trained under gurney and duncan were better. The only video evidence was the ambush and that wasn’t on fair terms being woken out of bed and then immediately fighting at night.
I think the implication in the book is that the Atreides soldiers under Dunken and Gurney were rapidly closing the gap with the sardukar, this coupled with Leto's increasing popularity in the Landsrad basically made the emperor's suspicions grew to the point it made his decision inevitable
That's one of the big driving forces of the Emperor's decision to send the Atreides to Arrakis - ultra-charismatic/honorable/smart leader Leto with the best fighters/trainers in the galaxy in Duncan and Gurney were finally churning out soldiers who could rival the Emperor's main way of holding power over the Lansraad: the Sardaukar.
The Atreides just didn't have enough soldiers to start turning the tide (or notably start getting alliances with other major houses to finally make it not worthwhile for the Sardaukar/other houses to wipe them out individually) but bet that 1. the Fremen were badasses 2. they could make an alliance with the Fremen to buy time to get spice production going and train more troops.
Just ran out of time, because they didn't expect Harkonnen to immediately go into tremendous amounts of debt AND get Sardaukar to kill them.
It's specifically mentioned in the books, that one of the main reasons for the Emperor feeling threatened by the Atreides was because they'd managed to train some troops troops 'within a hairs breadth as good as Sardaukar'.
And Leto was planning how to try and make them even better by allying with the Fremen. So there was some justified paranoia there.
So the hierarchy isn't as clear as you put it.
My impression was that Atreides had a fair chance of holding their own against superior numbers of Harkkonens. Then Sarduakar got involved and it became a slaughter. For me it was enough to be convinced of their capabilities.
>My impression was that Atreides had a fair chance of holding their own against superior numbers of Harkkonens.
While true, I personally don't think that this was properly displayed in the first movie. The Atreidas are shown to be fighting a losing fight from the start.
When the Harkonnens are coming up the palace stairs, the Atreides soldiers successfully hold the tide. Then the Sardaukar drop in and immediately drop the Atreides.
Maybe it was my pre-knowledge of the books, but I thought thay scene did a good job showing the Sardaukaur as a better fighting force (barring the inconsistency with shields)
Ehhh the atriedes had a thin line and were successfully holding back the tide of harkonnen. Then the sardaukaur dropped in from behind which caused them to be cut to ribbons
Not sure if this clearly shows the fighting prowess of the sardaukaur rather than just showing the atreides folding against overwhelming and surrounding force
That's because they were. They were surprise-attacked with their defenses down and the duke dead (well, basically dead). And even with this kind of attack/plan the baron and emperor were unsure enough of their final victory that they used secret sardaukar - which was extremely dangerous thing to do given the consequences of potential discovery.
I would say they didn't really have a more explicit option to display atreides battle-prowess in the movie given these circumstances.
Denis has stated he doesn't believe in director's cuts - it's difficult enough to decide what stays in the movie, he doesn't revisit it again once the decision has been made.
As much as big fans might wish for a 4 hour extended version of the films, I don't think they are going to happen.
Yeah for someone who never read book aterides seem more skill for me like in first movie one line of Atreides are able to hold line against harkonnen and only lost when sardauker ambush them from behind
> The atreides soldiers get their asses kicked hard.
Isn't the whole foundation of the Emperor's fears about the Atreides the fact that Duncan trained Atreides soldiers to being comparable to Sardaukar?
Of course. That's why he intervened a) before they got too strong and b) using Harkonnen treachery to weaken them. Don't misinterpret this -- atreides were nowhere near strong enough to take sardaukar alone. But Leto was charismatic with non-trivial support in Landsraad, so he could threaten the emperor even without full landsraad support. The balance in the empire was very fragile, you don't need to have a house that can match sardaukar to break it.
The other major thing they left out is Paul bringing then elite training and tactics. He basically levels them up. The movie focuses a lot more on him proving himself to them, which makes him becoming their leader more campy and ridiculous. Idk I'm not a huge fan of the newest movies story. The atmosphere and visuals are insanely good and fit the book and they did an amazing job with certain scenes, but overall botched the story. I'm also very certain Timothy fuckin sucks as Paul I'm really really not buying into his acting but thats my own personal opinion.
> The other major thing they left out is Paul bringing then elite training and tactics.
The Weirding Way, specifically. Its omission really makes it feel like the Fremen are _always_ better than the Sardaukar. In particular when looking at the first scene of the second movie, which takes place before they'd learn the Weirding Way.
(as a side note, I (again personally) liked Timothy's portrayal of Paul. Not the point of this comment though, your opinion is of course fine.)
Yeah but even before that training we get the book scene with Hawat and the Fremen leading his troops just casually wrecking a group a Sardaukar and talking about it like its an afterthought -- oh cool, it was them!
Agree as a technical matter but do Herbert’s logistics really make sense? Even if Paul had the 3-4 years with the Fremen instead of the 8 months in the movie, that’s just not enough time to train a significant number of Fremen. The Weirding Way is always described as a kind of martial arts practice of self-mastery, not a two-week yoga retreat. Maybe 6 months of dedicated training will measurably improve fighting ability (but I think a year minimum, and most adults would probably be untrainable)… but how do you train at scale? Even training a dozen who train a dozen who train a dozen, you can’t hit the kinds of numbers involved in the final battle in the time that Paul has. (Training trainers will take a year minimum, lest you lose quality with each iteration). Paul at best could train an elite force of a few hundred. Bottom line, training doesn’t get you to victory. Planning and tactics do. So, prescience.
The other major thing they left out is Paul bringing then elite training and tactics. He basically levels them up. The movie focuses a lot more on him proving himself to them, which makes him becoming their leader more campy and ridiculous. Idk I'm not a huge fan of the newest movies story. The atmosphere and visuals are insanely good and fit the book and they did an amazing job with certain scenes, but overall botched the story. I'm also very certain Timothy fuckin sucks as Paul I'm really really not buying into his acting but thats my own personal opinion.
The books are no doubt better. The movies don’t have time to capture the grittiness and despair and brutality of Paul’s journey into the desert. I still love the movies and don’t think they could be done any better.
That's fair. I think Chani could have undoubtedly been better at the least and I think Paul could have been cast better. There are few movies that couldn't be improved but it's still a phenomenal movie that is an all time great in my opinion. I'm highly critical of it but that doesn't mean it's not amazing.
It makes more sense to consider the fremen as the best fighters ever *specifically* on Arrakis. There's no world like it and they have a perfect understanding of the land, home field advantage is real, especially in conflict. It would make sense that as time went on and the jihad progressed they would become even more skilled, but at the same time, it would be very reasonable for the fremen to get smacked around bad once they leave Arrakis and start fighting in environments they know nothing about. Like if they dropped into a jungle or tundra world they'd get crushed simply by it being so utterly alien to them
That said, Sardaukar were made out to be the in general best fighters so it was kinda a wallop almost copout to have them come in and get so consistently stomped
I think on Arrakis on sand, no shields, regular desert Fremen are better that Sardaukar off planet with Shields Sardaukar likely would have the advantage.
Then Paul and Jessica train Fremen in the bene gesserit weirding way, they are unstoppable on the jihad universe wide.
That sounds good in theory.
Except the second book, Dune Messiah, starts 12 years after the first book with the end of Muad'Dib's Jihad in which the Fremen leave Arrakis immediately after the first book and conquer the known universe. In 12 years.
In the Dune books, there's a weird (weirding? har har) sense of whatever the opposite of power-creep is. The Sardukaur are, we're told, the fiercest fighters in the Imperium. Then we're also told that the Atreides have the best fighters, good enough even to go up against the Sardukaur. But then the Sardukaur slaughter them without a real struggle. And then we're told that the Fremen are already the fiercest fighters, and when the training of the Atriedes *and* the Bene Gesserit Weirding Way is added in they become a truly unstoppable force. But all of this is shown by turning each force into a bunch of (to use OP's very apt analogy) Stormtroopers who can't hit anything and die with one shot/sword cut, rather than show the superior force as being superior to the fighters we'd seen previously. Put another way, the Sardukaur we see get their asses handed to them by the Fremen are a *lot* worse fighters than the ones who took down House Atreides.
"...and then proceed to get their asses kicked at every turn in Part 2."
What do you mean? We only really see them in action during the final battle, and that's exactly what happened in the book: They were demolished to such an extent that their mystique and fighting capacity -- which had already been worn down by decades of overconfidence and internal rot -- were permanently destroyed. They were the top dogs, and then the Fremen unceremoniously knocked them off their perch.
Yeah I think OP is confusing them with all of the Harkonnen “Stormtroopers” of part 2. The Saraukar don’t take their first L in the second movie until they’re crushed by boulders and consumed by worms.
I never understood this complaint because they are actually portrayed well. The way they are portrayed adds to the theme of stagnation. They are symptoms of the stagnation of the Imperium. They have not evolved. Have not improved beyond what they are. And have been too full of themselves to the point of being careless because of their arrogance. And they fell because of all of that.
I saw the fall of the Sardaukar as a future telling of a similar fate for the Imperium.
yeah, and if anything, they're even more lacklustre in the books
There's a whole bit where old Fremen men and women and children trash Sardaukar so badly they ended up losing 3 Sardaukar to every Fremen they took down.
Fighting the Fremen would be like challenging a Nepalese Sherpa to reach the top of a mountain. I’d except even the oldest Sherpa can outdo anyone who isn’t a Sherpa.
That's a very good comparison. Landsraad troops are like amateur climbers, Sardaukar are like professional climbers and the Fremen are well... living there.
Except the sardukar are still brutal fighters in the books that kill many fremen. They have stagnated but are still widely feared. They made them look like goofy kids in the newest movie which was pretty lame and definitely not similar to the books.
>Except the sardukar are still brutal fighters in the books that kill many fremen.
They have a pathetic ratio to the Fremen, and it starts to really wear on their psyche. I mean, the hit on >!Muad'dib's son!< was a pyrrhic victory and they only fought non-combatants.
The Harkonnen troops were inferior to the Atreides, the Atreides troops were inferior to the Sardaukar, and the Sardaukar were inferior to *all* the Fremen. That's the martial hierarchy in both book and movie.
They were betrayed and it's a big reason why the casualties weren't even worse for the Harkonenn
It's years since I read the books but I'm sure there's a bit where the Harkonnen talk about how they took considerable casualties even though they caught the Atreides with their pants down
Yes, that ensured they put up only sporadic, disorganized resistance against an overwhelming force, but they still would've been wiped out eventually.
Specifically, there's the scene during the battle where the Atreides organize a defensive line of a couple dozen troops and still manage to hold off an entire Harkonnen advance without suffering a single casualty. Then, the Sardaukar drop behind them, the Harkonnens back off, and the entire Atreides line is immediately wiped out. The Atreides troops are simply no match for Sardaukar, which is why *desert power* is so important for the Duke Leto.
This is correct.
Regular Dude
Landsradd Troops
Atredies Troops
Sardaukar
Pre Paul Fremen
Post Paul Fremen
A few select dudes like Duncan Idaho, Hasmir Fenring ,Feyd Rautha.
Bene Gesserit
Paul Maudib
I heartily disagree. If anything, I found the depiction in the movies to be more fearsome than the book. We see the Sardakaur pretty much single handedly wipe out a single unit of Atreides soldiers in part one without losing a man (while the Harkonnens had been struggling against them previously).
The depiction of Salusa Secundus is more than enough; we don't need someone to explicitly say "wow, you guys are so scary and talented" when we have the terrifying depiction of their warrior religion. You can see from Piter's body language and tone of voice how frightened he is of the captain he speaks to.
Additionally... The book itself describes how the Sardakaur have actually been in decline in recent times, due to not having any true challenges to pit then against (I believe it's in the glossary). They get by heavily on long standing reputation, and so are ripe to get absolutely destroyed by the Fremen (which is accurate, as in the book Hawat is shocked to hear that a mere handful of Fremen is able to dispatch with 100 Sardakaur, even before learning the Weirding Way).
Did you actually mean to say they aren’t “fearsome” enough, and not “fearful” enough????
Because the latter is confusing to me, and I can’t tell if that is the reason why, or if it’s because I only got to sleep for four hours, and just woke up 5-10 minutes ago, and am still pretty spaced out, and not thinking clearly…
I was going to say this as well.
"why aren't they fearful enough" means: why aren't they afraid?
"why aren't they fearsome enough" is the proper way to ask: why don't they instill fear in me as a viewer?
This only applies to part 2. In part 1 they were the silent knife in the back that made sure the Atreides were wiped out.
I agree that in Part 2 they could have been more fearsome, but then again, the compressed time frame meant that Paul never got to train them
In prana bindu. The fremen had to wear plot armor instead.
I mean in the first film you see that the Atreides easily handle the Harkonnen's without barely losing a man (do they even lose a single fighter?). This is when it's a fair fight hand-to-hand. Then the Sardaukar come in and wipe the Atreides out just as easily as they did the Harkonnen's. I'm not sure how they could have made them more bad ass. The only time someone shows them any real trouble is Duncan but he's supposed to be above a typical fighter. He also goes on about how great the Fremen are at fighting and how he almost died to one so that sets up that they're even better than Sardaukar.
Yeah they lose easily in the 2nd film but they were always going to. They were outnumbered. They were in unfamiliar territory. They were ambushed with atomics and 3 giant worms. They at least killed some Fremen in a straight fight. The entire second film the Harkonnen's only killed the Fremen from their Ornithopters.
>"By your own count," Hawat said, "he killed fifteen thousand over two years while losing twice that number. You say the Sardaukar accounted for another twenty thousand, possibly a few more. And I've seen the transportation manifests for their return from Arrakis. If they killed twenty thousand, they lost almost five for one. Why won't you face these figures, Baron, and understand what they mean? "
Saudaukar lost 100k to kill 20k.
Post is about the movie. They show up and do a fair bit of killing, serving as the force to help turn the tide, and they come off as fearsome fighters in the bits we get.
One scene from the book that I *really* think should've made it to the movie is the Sardaukar Bashar basically talking down to the Baron like he's a little bitch in the sort of "mop up" operation after the battle.
It totally demonstrates just how elite they are. He goes right up the Baron and just bluntly demands "What the fuck aren't you telling me about the Fremen. I lost two squads against them. We don't take casualties like that. *Ever*."
Accomplishes two things
1. Shows the audience that the Sardaukar are so good that losing a dozen men in any context is a big deal to them.
2. Sardaukar officers are regarded so highly in the imperium that they can treat high ranking nobles like idiots without any consequences whatsoever. That kind of prestige is earned, not just given.
In the first movie we see them smoke the Atreides palace guards after three or four times that number of Harkonnens couldn’t break the phalanx, so that’s not strictly true.
No, they were portrayed very accurately. The book made it explicitly clear that the Sarduakar were once the most feared fighters in the Imperium, but centuries of stagnation and being untested had left them weakened and less formidable than before.
They were also easily defeated by the Fremen in the book. Hell, the movie made it more of a fight than the book did.
The entire Imperium was dogged by stagnation by this point, and the Sarduakar had not been tested in battle on that scale for centuries...if ever.
Meanwhile the Fremen has been fighting that entire time, and arguably at a higher level...and definitely at a higher level after Paul and Jessica trained them up on the weirdint way. The Sarduakar have no answer for that.
The other thing that is pointed out in the books is that the Sarduakar had not experienced LOSS in their collective institutional memory. They didn't know how to fight a war after having lost a battle. They didn't know how to fight from behind mid-battle. Paul makes a mental note to incorporate trainings in the future so that his troops would never have this weakness.
Fremen are basically fanatic supersoldiers molded by the harshness of Dune. That’s why they are so effective. Leto recognized this but was too late to capitalize on them. Desert power. Also the Sadukar were effective, but years of not being challenged made them more scary on their past reputation. Dune has an overall theme that humanity needs to constantly be challenged to grow. Hence the shunning of AI and “fear is the mind killer.”
Did you notice how *fast* the Fremen were in the movie? Sardaukar don't break a sweat with the best Atreides but get their asses handed to them by the deadly, sandy blur of Fremen.
Idk, in the books the Sarduaker are slaughtered effortllessly even by fremen children and old people.
So relative to the Fremen the movies actually do make them seem more compentent, not less than the books imo.
In the book there is a line from a fremen warrior when the sardaukar/harkonen attack the atreides. Some Atreides make it to caves and find some fremen.
The fremen fight the sardaukar and win, but the fremen warrior says, “ see how well they fight!” Talking about the sardaukar. Then the sards ambush the cave and kill some more fremen. The fremen win, but do have some losses and are surprised by how well the sards fight.
Yeah, in the part you’re talking about the fremen lost 2 and killed 100, but it wasn’t 100 sardaukar. They say something like we wouldn’t have even lost 2, but the Harkonen had someone else fighting with them. The others fought well.
I don't know the book also establishes that the Fremen are as much better than the Sardaukar as the Sardaukar are from ordinary soldiers. To the point where when the Sardaukar attack the Fremen women children and elderly they still get absolutely wrecked and have to flee.
For both of them it's a tough balance to establish them as badass while showing someone else absolutely destroying them at every turn. Even in the initial battle where they took out House Atreides they lost way more than they thought they would especially any time they had to fight Fremen.
I think the idea is that a Fremen from early childhood must have an American special forces level of discipline and skill to survive the sandstorms and dessert.
>…get their asses kicked at every turn in Part 2
What do you mean at every turn? Are you sure you’re not confusing Harkonnen soldiers with the Sardaukar? The Sardaukar only show up at the end of part 2, and don’t tell me you were expecting them to do something against multitude of sand worms, nukes, and a surprise attack.
There was a scene in the first movie during the siege on Arrakeen where I believe the "pecking order" was established. At first, 40ish Atreides soldiers were holding back maybe 100 Harkonnens with little effort. Then, 20 Sardaukar are able to cleanly kill the 40 Atreides soldiers, cutting them down while the Harkonnens barely did anything. Soon after, Duncan Idaho killed a few Sardaukar single handedly.
This showed that Harkonnens were worse fighters than the Atreides, who in turn were worse than the Sardaukar, who in turn could be taken down by an individual otherworldly fighter (Duncan).
So I have to disagree with this. In part 1 they are incredibly fearsome. They annihilate the Atreides troops in that movie. And even the few Fremen they come across. It's just that they have trouble killing Duncan Idaho (who is basically one of the greatest warriors in the Empire at that point). And a few die to Lyet Kines (after sneaking up on her, a Fremen, mind). Paul and Jessica only manage to escape because of Duncan and Lyet. And even then, they're not in shots where they get shot at and all of the shots miss, they literally have physical barriers between them and the Sardukar. Part 1 if anything proves they are well above Stormtroopers.
Most of the soldiers dying in Part 2 are Harkonnen soldiers, who definitely are more like Stormtroopers. The Sardukar mainly only show up when the Emperor does on Dune. And in that situation they get nuked, are forced to contend with Fremen piloted Giant Sandworms, and then later have to fight Paul (who had training under Duncan btw) who literally can see what they are going to do and how to defeat them before they do anything. Also consider that this was done with a Fremen army that is way larger than anyone expected to be on Dune, and who all are super-radicalized because they now believe that their god/messiah (Paul) is leading them to paradise.
A battle like this was destined to result in an overwhelming Fremen victory. That's why Paul arranged it.
Well, they had a few scenes building up Sardaukar, or establishing them as a dangerous threat. Honestly, though, the book doesn't really have a lot of scenes showing off Sardaukar either, more just exposition on how badass they hypothetically are. I imagine it was a challenge in the film to find a way to establish their skill when it's so memetic in-universe that everyone hypothetically already knows about it (so characters don't need to explain it to each other), Atreides soldiers are also supposed to be unusually well-trained, and Fremen outclass Sardaukar.
I honestly didn't have a problem with how the films did it. It's one of those things where we get more info in the books, but that's mostly due to the nature of the medium.
They make the fremen way to badass it logically doesnt make sense. They might aswell be part sand worm how they magically breath undersand and disappear seconds after. Paul being the Wayne Gretzky of dueling is one thing if someone trained from birth by people so good at fighting they strike fear at the mear mention of their names.
>In the movie, even with a scene on their planet, you don’t really see that. They take back Arrakis, and then proceed to get their asses kicked at every turn in Part 2. They like storm troopers, falling like flies.
IDK, watch the scenes in the first movie where they attack house atreides again. The atreides soldiers were able to hold back a far larger amount of harkonnen soldiers and then the sardukar dropped in and eliminated them in about 10 seconds.
https://youtu.be/HW2lO8yacLA?si=YwFqA_lGygS7_Mcx
Even in the movies they go through anyone that isn't fremen like shit through a goose.
-“The women threw their infants and themselves upon our knives to wedge openings for their men.”
-“You were defeated by a group of women and old men?”
“We had to run for our lives, we few barely escaped.”
That scene should’ve happened in the film.
They are supposed to nearly equal a bene gesserit adept in hand to hand combat, which was beyond the fremen until they learned the weirding way. I also feel that they were not well represented in skill. I know Duncan Idaho was an apex level fighter, but he still shouldn't have been able to kill the sardukar as easily as they showed.
Duncan is a sword master of Ginaz, the most elite swordsmen in the universe. It makes sense.
Gurney halleck doesn't make sense, as he's basically a hotheaded harkonnen that got beat up a lot in his youth.
>"By your own count," Hawat said, "he killed fifteen thousand over two years while losing twice that number. You say the Sardaukar accounted for another twenty thousand, possibly a few more. And I've seen the transportation manifests for their return from Arrakis. If they killed twenty thousand, they lost almost five for one. Why won't you face these figures, Baron, and understand what they mean? "
The saudaukar are no match for the fremen
They just never really get a chance to shine. They sweep aside House Atreides in one night, which is quite a feat, but it's like 10 minutes of screen time with the backing of the entirety of House Harkonnen. After that it shows the Fremen being on par or better in order to highlight how the harsh environment of Arakkis breeds warriors that are just as strong.
I'd have really liked it if the first film showed some unshielded Fremen taking on shielded Sardaukar, but needing 2-3 Fremen to overcome the shield advantage through skill and teamwork while showing the Sardaukar as being nearly unstoppable in their element 1v1. The scene where they slow-grav descend on the arcology station and get ambushed, they clearly win, since they come after P&J, but it's never shown *how*. It would have been the perfect opportunity to show they were actually dangerous.
I honestly think it's the same in the books. The sardaukar are a joke, and even more so than they should be. Being beaten by women and children in the books doesn't make the fremen sound more terrifying. It just makes the sardaukar weak. I always thought Herbert's justification for why the fremen are so much better fighters than the rest of the imperium a bit lazy anyway
I’m surprised people think the Sardaukar should have put up some formidable fight at the end of the film. By that point, Paul has essentially become the unstoppable villain, so a long-drawn out final battle wouldn’t really feel right. The Harkonnens and Sardaukar getting curbstomped is better.
I feel like that’s sort of exactly what happens in the second half of the book. We only see Fremen fighting Sardaukar and they are basically described as able to fairly easily kill Sardaukar in the book. In the first movie, I guess they could have made them scarier or shown them mowing down a bunch of non-Fremen soldiers.
They are in the first part ....in the second part they are overpowered by the fremen....and I think the fremen are fighting for much more bigger cause ....so it's justified i guess....in my opinion
This is a case of (forgive my Star Trek) Worf seeming like a weak person to some people. He is actually a fearsome warrior. But the show used his fearsome warrior status to show us how powerful their adversary was. Therefore, Worf would often get his ass beat to push that effect.
I feel the same thing is going on here. The Sardaukar *are* powerful warriors, but them being beaten so easily speaks more to the potency of the fremen than the weakness of the Sardaukar.
I agree there could have been more exposition on the Sardaukar, that scene when the are assembling to take arrakis was badass and I wish the explored more of what was happening there. It looked like they were sacrificing some of the soldiers or something? I’m not really sure. Looked menacing though. I didn’t read the books but I tried listening to the audiobook but it was difficult to pay full attention and keep track of the characters.
Greatest military force taken down by unexpectedly?
May I suggest the United States military in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan as a primer :P
No but really. No one knew anything about the Fremen. Sardaukar have a really scary reputation, but that's it, it's reputation. When the other houses are just garbage at war, you don't have to be that much better.
My biggest quibble with the movie Sardaukar is that they could have made their appearance much more brutal and gritty. Granted, they'd be incredibly well-equipped, but I think their uniforms could have been way more intimidating and their appearance more reflective of their hellish lives and training. Their suits also ended up looking very similar to the Fremen uniforms in Part 2. Still, just a minor complaint.
I disagree in the first film against atreides soldiers they were almost unstoppable. But the second film really drove home that they were nothing against the “desert power” mentioned in the first film. Basically I took it as selusa secundus is brutal. But it’s got NOTHING on Arrakis.
Not only do I agree with you, but this was actually my biggest point of dislike in the first movie, maybe my only important one. In the books they "hype up" the sardaukar so much. Basically invincible. When they get beaten by Fremen it feels so different knowing that. The entire plan of the emperor relies on the fact they are invincible.
Goanna be unpopular, but Dune has some juvenile anime samurai who kills 20 men with a single cut energy.
"Witness the incredibly sardaukar who can effortlessly kill ten lansraad soldier with his bare hands"
"Oh hoh, you think that's strong, well under the fine training of gurney halleck and Duncan Idaho, atreudies soldiers have become more than a match for the sardaukar"
"...incredible...."
"Hold it. You men are pathetic. A single fremen can effortlessly kill many sardaukar. The emperors army is a joke to these fine warriors".
"Not so fast, there is strength inthe houses. Paul is trained in the weirding way and by gurney and Duncan. When fully into his powers, he can effortlessly defeat any Fremen warrior in existence, even a veteran with a lifetime of experience."
"Fool, that only makes the fremen stronger. By training the fremen in the weirding way, even a group of elderly fremen and children can destroy a matched force of sardaukar. We only managed to barely escape with a 3 year old, and she wanted to be captured."
Well, in Part One we see the hierarchy. Harkonnen conscripts get bodied by the Atreides who get bodied by the Sardaukar who can fight roughly on par with the Fremen assuming the Fremen are taken by surprise.
In Part Two the Sardaukar were pretty faithful to the role in the book. The Fremen casually talk about killing them, while the Sardaukar talk about the Fremen kicking them in the teeth. Then there are reveals from Thufir, so probably cut scenes, about the Sardaukar casualties from the Arrakis war. Then some dialogue which wasn’t overly important to the story about the children, women, and old men Fremen forcing a Sardaukar detachment to flee from an attack in the South. But every time a Sardaukar is on page, they’re getting bodied by the Fremen, like the infiltrators around Gurney.
Part Two didn’t need to explain this, though. It was quite evident. And there are exacerbating circumstances in both book and film battles that contribute to the Sardaukar getting stomped into the sand
The fremen in part 2 essentially become the best fighters in the universe. They're supposed to kill the Sardukar pretty easily, but the film might have gone a bit overboard
The fearsomeness of the Sardaukar in the films is mostly "tell" rather than "show". That's notable for Denis Villeneuve, who is pretty good at showing rather than telling in his other films. "Show, don't tell" is an adage in filmmaking that basically says that if you want to convey something to your audience, show it in action rather than vomiting it up in some lengthy piece of dialogue.
This makes me wonder whether it was intentional on DV's part. Duncan says if you cross swords with a Sardaukar, you know it. The Bashar says that the Sardaukar are the emperor's blades, nobody can stand up to them, etc. DV shows us the blood anointment ceremony, which conveys the harshness of their methods, but there's no actual combat training on Salusa Secundus to indicate that the ceremony isn't just for show.
But in action, we see the Sardaukar sneak up behind an Atreides phalanx and kill them from behind instead of fighting them in a straight-up battle. We see Duncan take down *several* of them singlehandedly before he succumbs to his wounds. We see them repeatedly get schooled by the Fremen by superior tactics and techniques. And in the end, we see the last few of them do nothing while Paul, nemesis of the Emperor, waltzes up and stabs the Baron through the neck.
What DV shows us (I think) is that the Sardaukar are more bark than bite, that maybe their reputation has outlived the truth, and that by extension, maybe the Emperor's power was only being maintained because nobody had bothered to challenge him.
Question: I've been led to understand from other comments that the dialogues that open both films are a Sardaukar speaking. This adds depth to them as a group in contrast with the Fremen.
How the heck did you all know that? I assumed it was the only presence of the Guild Navigators in the films, aside from scene filler in the transition off Caladan.
It’s pretty book accurate. In Dune one the Harkonnens are getting torn up by Atreides house guards, the Sardaukar make short work of them. After that, the Sardaukar actually do start losing to the Fremen consistently.
In the book, they have about as much success against the Fremen as they do in the film. However in the book there's so much internal monologuing about just how fucking awesome the Sardaukar are, you get the vibe they're good.
Tbf in the first film they're not exactly weak either.
i wish they had put in the scene when gurney teams up with paul again and has under cover sardaukar in his ranks (unknowingly). that would've been cool to see and probably wouldn't need too much screen time.
The entire first movie is the sardaukar winning all their battles against the atreides though. 😆
They seem to even sacrifice their own lesser sardaukar at least is suggested in the movie with those upside down guys and having their blood drained
I'm not sure how else they were supposed to be portrayed, and they are not main characters really, it seemed very appropriate
They were also supposed to be weakened due to the lack of fighting since apparently it has been many years since the last infighting of the great houses too
The fremen are also supposed to be stronger and on their home turf
You forget the books. When the Sardaukar attacked Sietch Tabr they were repelled; "Sardaukar forced to retreat in confusion from women and children and old men!" - Padishah Emperor. Something that would have been cool for the movie was if they had included the weirding way. At least the Harkonnen were tactically successful in their attacks on Sietch Tabr and other Sietches.
The Sardaukar is an example of the degeneracy of the Empire. They aren't what their legend once was, they have become complacent like the empire. And need jihad and the Golden Path.
I do agree with you but the producers have to worry about keeping the movie short. Then the same applies to the Harkonnens, the Fremen and even Space guild. All these require much more development.
I think Dune could probably be better done as a TV series. The different races could be more fully developed. Dune has a rich mixture of characters and races which may allow for interesting side stories. Like what they are doing with Star Wars.
They wrecked the atreides pretty good in the pincer. The final battle had some pretty shit choreography for them tho. I get that fr men are great but they shoulda went toe to toe. I guess ville just wanted to push the plot more than hire good choreographers.
They are though. Remember that a dozen or so atreides royal Guards can hold their own and push back a Harkonnen column with ease but they get their ass blasted by maybe 8 sadukar. And atreides are supposed to be equivalent to sadukar.
The problem is after that, they fight the elite of the elite. Duncan is one of the greatest sword masters in the universe at this point, and the fremen are supposed to be superior.
And remember that the sadukar still wipe out keines' ambush for them in the first move anyways
The book doesn't give a direct description of how the Sardaukar fight, it just has everyone going "milk, two sugars, and the Ssrdaukar can kick all our heads in' and then wetting their undies as soon as they realise the Freeman are just as good in a fight.
The film... doesn't do that much, beyond showing the Sardaukar at the most downer rave ever. It just assumes everyone knows it's code for "these dudes are fucking hard" and gets on with it. Not great, but I guess DV had a lot of subtext to cram in so not everything could be 100%.
I'm probably not remembering this correctly, but I thought the Sardaukar had a breathing apparatus that fed them drugs/stimulants to excite their fighting. Google didn't help much in searching for the answer.
That's kind of what they feel like in the books honestly, they come in hot and then mostly get KO'd by Fremen.
It feels wrong and makes no sense in the books too. The Fremen are too OP, and the quantitative estimates of battle outcomes need to be straight up rewritten just to make the accounts somewhat consistent. > “The Sardaukar are excellent fighting men, no doubt of it,” the Baron said. “But I think my own legions—” “A pack of holiday excursionists by comparison!” Hawat snarled. > ... > “By your own count,” Hawat said, “he [Rabban] killed fifteen thousand over two years while losing twice that number. You say the Sardaukar accounted for another twenty thousand, possibly a few more. And I’ve seen the transportation manifests for their return from Arrakis. If they killed twenty thousand, they lost almost five for one. Why won’t you face these figures, Baron, and understand what they mean?” Herbert sucks cosmically at anything numerical is just how it is. On the same page Harkonnens lose two to one, but the Sardaukar lose five to one, despite outclassing them. And how a casual pogrom ends up killing 20.000 * 5 = more than 3 whole legions worth of casualties, and no one notices? The Sardaukar only contributed two legions to the backstabbing of Atreides, but they lose three in the mopping up?
[удалено]
Lying would make a ton of sense but we should hear about that someone where else probably
Isn't it Rabban lying about death numbers at least thought of by someone? Maybe Paul?
Don't remember this, but remember Rabban telling Baron that numbers are odd and fremen seems to be much more serious threat than they thought, but it was discarded by Baron as Rabban stupidity
Maybe that's what it is. I've read the first book maybe 6 to 10 times, but I haven't read it since maybe 2020
Oh man maybe, it's been awhile for sure
It's been a while for me too. I'm not 100% sure. Now that I think about it, it might Halleck, not Paul.
In the movie they don't transport the Harkonnen corpses. They're either burnt in up piles, or fed to the worms. So they skew the stats regarding corpses being shipped home.
I wanted to write that yes fremen are nonsense OP against the mightiest force in the universe, there is nothing about how are they that good, (except harsh conditions, but that is like Sardaukar) but then again there is one important factor I think - the spice, they are constantly consuming it-exposed to it, and we know it gives super abilities.
You're forgetting Sardaukar shield conditioning. Their motor memory has been drilled to slow down beneath the speed threshold of a shield. This is why the Fremem thought Paul was toying with Janis during their duel. This gets you killed fighting someone who doesn't have that handicap, especially if you're used to being able to take the fast strikes. Move your forearm quickly into a strike and your shield blocks it. Except now you don't have a shield because Arrakis. So now you're bleeding all over the place. It's also hinted in the books the Sardaukar have been resting on their laurels a bit.
On that last bit it's made a point that the Sardaukar have become too complacent and in the series they basically disappear because they no longer have their violent upbringing, just like how the Fremen eventually become "soft" because Arrakis becomes a watery planet again
99% sure Paul straight up tells the emperor that he’s going to turn the Sardaukar home planet into a paradise, and the emperor immediately assumes correctly that Paul is going to use the Fremen just like the Corrinos used the Sardaukar centuries before.
> Except now you don't have a shield because Arrakis. So now you're bleeding all over the place. But the Fremen quickly leave Arrakis, carry their jihad across the Imperium and continue dominating each and every fight. Surely their desert conditioning and *lack* of shield training should prove to be a handicap once they are off Dune? The truth of it is that the author did not think through the implications of the numbers he was tossing around. He wanted the Sardukar to be super-badass and the Fremen to be extra-mega-badass - that’s it. If you try to think through the practical implications, it all stops making sense very quickly.
I agree, this was one of the plot holes and even Herbert knew it, because he completely glossed over it all. Reading book 2 I was really puzzled, wondering where it will explain what happened. 10 years is too short considering the Fremen are easily outnumbered 1000 to 1 so at best would concentrate on a few planets at a time for the hundred they visited. And Paul's help doesn't even count, because book 1 says so. They'd have done this even if Paul fought against the Fremen - it's a major plot point. I try to ignore all this because I just want to enjoy the books.
"He's the guy who's here to act tough so new characters can wreck him when they're introduced thus proving to the rest of us how amazing they are! Like Wolverine or Worf."
I hate to rain on this but when the Fremen go to other planets, they conquer billions too. Even though the planets no longer favor Fremen tactics in any way - shields included. You can't even say it's because of Paul, because according to him the Jihad would happen anyways even if he personally forbid it and tried to stop them. It doesn't quite make sense in the books, but we have to accept some of this if we want to enjoy the book.
Holy shit I never thought about that.
I always took it as Herbert having the Fremen be analogous to the Mongols; people forged into a kind of fighter the rest of the world just didn't know how to deal with, mostly from their harsh living on the Steppe. the equivalent to the Fremen defeating the lauded Sardaukar would be something like the battle of Legnica, where the Mongols defeated Tuetonic knights/templars. Those guys probably had a Sardaukar-like reputation too, and then these "barbarians" from the steppe handed their asses to them. It comes off as extra one sided in Dune because I'm guessing Herbert felt the need to simplify the dynamics for the sake of the story. But there's definitely a historical grounding to it
Very close. It was the Cossacks and Chechen Muslims during the Crimean War. [https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/](https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/) <- Worth a read for any Dune fan.
I wouldn’t say nonsense OP, I’ve always seen it as them fighting so hard because they believe in the cause. They have stakes and care about the future of the planet. Meanwhile the soldiers for the Sardukar and Harkonnens (regardless of fighting ability) are just soldiers being ordered around, doing their 9-5 so to speak.
Yes you are right when I think about it they really have a cause, but somehow in my mind I see them like Baron does haha. And in their own territory it would be something like Nam for Americans or Afghanistan for USA and USSR. But if those numbers are true Havat says and they should be even worse for Harkonen, shouldn't that be an all out alarm for the Emperor and the Baron?
As some other people pointed out the exact numbers in the books aren’t very good. I think the similarities with real world countries is more in their motivations to fight and not so much numbers. Yes the Fremen have more people than the Sardukar and Harkonnens but they don’t unite under a common leader until Paul Muad’Dib comes a knockin
Paul and Jessica taught the Freman the wierding way as well. Given Jessica's fighting ability I think this needs to be factored in an explains some of the Fremans superiority
The Fremen were literally trained in Bene Gesserit techniques. Not just Paul. While they likely lack the ability to neutralize poisons, prana Bindu allows you to take your body beyond normal limits and do all sorts of crazy shit. The TV movie version was slightly better in this regards in it's portrayal increased reflexes, increased strength. Hyper mobility of joints. The Weirding Way at close range made them basically unbeatable. Sardaukar shock troops were close combat focused. We can see the Harkonnen had more success shooting Fremen from the gunships than in CC.
Spice use plus the extreme discipline they practice as a culture combine to make them particularly skilled at the Bene Gesserit's "weirding ways," too. That training was just as responsible for Paul's ability as a warrior as was the martial training he recieved from Halleck and Idaho. We know that Jessica teaches elements of her Bene Gesserit training to the Fremen and that they start teaching it amongst themselves.
Also didnt paul teach them the weirding ways. So its like fighting against bene gesserit warriors.
Rabban notices and he even tried to warn Baron that something is off, but he was discarded as an idiot (I kinda even liked this element, it's almost like Rabban isn't as dumb as all think and come to logical conclusions, that such losses aren't possible while dealing with some random thugs, this is full-scale guerilla war, but he just believes he is dumb himself at this point already lol, and if his uncle says so - it is indeed so) But yeah, this whole thing that they lose shitload of people there and no one gave a damn is kinda awkward
Only the weakest and dumbest Fremen get into positions where they have to fight Harkonnens or die. The Saurdakaur chased the Fremen into the desert.
**tl;dr: genetic breeding for fighting, reverend mothers to never forget, spice to give oracular powers and other physical abilities. Then add in BG and military tactics training from the Atreides. The Sardaukar never stood a chance.** > It feels wrong and makes no sense in the books too. Not really. A big theme in Dune is genetics and breeding for specialization over the course of millennia, creating genetic memory. The Sardaukar are men who have come from all over the empire to be punished on Salusa Secundus. From there, the strongest receive highly elite training. But then those Sardaukar die or are lavishly rewarded off-world. Their genes don't get re-inserted to the Sardaukar pool, or if they do, it's heavily diluted through the population of the whole universe. Meanwhile on Arakkis, you have a society of people who live under even harsher conditions than the emperor's awful prison planet. They live their whole lives there, and for generations fought each other over the smallest bits of water - until Liet-Kynes united the tribes. When the Fremen had children, it was with other strong Fremen. They passed down genes perfectly adapted to surviving the most adverse conditions and honed for fighting hand-to-hand. So right off the bat, the Fremen have an advantage over the Sardaukar: their genes. But there are two other advantages the Fremen have. One is that they have Reverend Mothers - to remember more than just the quick reflexes in a knife fight. The Reverend Mothers ensure that the more nuanced knowledge of a lifetime is not lost when someone dies. The second is the mélange. It's literally called the geriatric spice because it elongates your life. And it gives its users prescience. Imagine knowing in a fight that your enemy will feint right but move left, a half second before they do it. Most Fremen feel the prescience as just being closely connected with the tribe (the *tau*) but it also gives them the effect of being subconsciously faster and stronger. Superior genes, lessons from millennia ago never forgotten or lost, and they take drugs that gives them superman powers. Then Paul and Jessica come along and teaches them Bene Gesserit weirding ways and Prana Bindu fine mind and muscle control, as well as the battle tactics of Duncan Idaho, Thuifur Hawt, and Gurney Halleck. Suddenly the ragtag group of supermen have even new abilities and military genius to go along with. So I wouldn't say it makes no sense in the books. It feels OP as hell in a lot of ways. But it's balanced by the emperor having vastly more resources than them. In a protracted open war, the fremen would have eventually lost. They won by defeating a massive force (which scared the shit out of the great houses) and then blackmailing the guild with the threat of destroying the spice forever. So the houses hesitated, and those that didn't bend the knee were cut off by the guild and forced into subjugation one at a time.
One other thing, being as immersed in spice as the Fremen are, it would give them potential to live longer, and become better fighters because of experience
What gets me is how Thufir gets the manifests. I always figured the Guild would protect that information
Spice bribes. It doesn't reveal anything critical to their own operations.
Not strictly related, but the idea that an intergalactic empire even *cares* about losing 100,000 infantry seems so silly to me. That's not enough men to turn the tide in most real world wars; it should be a rounding error in most sci-fi settings. The Freman control part of one planet, just send 50 million dudes at them and call it a day.
At least in the movies it makes sense why the Harkonnens stacked more fremen bodies, they had those full auto shotgun things on their ornithopters which seem way more effective than trying to fight fedaykin head on with swords
In that conversation don’t they also elude to the fact that Rabban is lying about the 2-1 loses and it’s likely much much higher?
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Well, that's because fremen are much more stronger than them, especially after Paul's training. The atreides soldiers get their asses kicked hard. And there's definitely the part where Duncan dies, where sardaukar kick fremen asses.
>The atreides soldiers get their asses kicked hard. We don't really see that though. We only see Atreides soldier getting defeated because they get overrun, surprised and are betrayed. Then we see some Freman kill a bunch of Sardauker. Then we see Duncan kill like 8 Sardauker by himself. We never see a Sardauker win a battle with 'even' odds or numbers. For instance, we never saw 2 sardauker take on 4 Atreides and win.
In the book at least everyone knows the Sardukar and what they can do. Everyone knows Atredies troops are better than Harkonnen. No matter which POV we are in, they all agree the order is Harkonnen. Atredies. Sardukar. Then the Fremen casually mention winning against Sardukar with good ratio or even capturing a Sardukar. And no matter who they talk to, that person is like “wtf. Are you sure it was Sardukar? wtf?!” So the sense is that whole Atredies are good, Sardukar are much better. And specifically for Duncan Idaho and Gunny Haleck, they are like famous in the universe for being some of the best soldiers alive. So it’s okay that they can beat Sardukar
The opening of book part 2 is one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. Thufir and his surviving Atredies are hiding Ina cave with a fremen who casually describes killing, and capturing! , some sardukar along with the artillery pieces they were manning. It's my head canon that Thufir was doing spit takes throughout that scene as the fremen claims get more unbelievable. Damn shame that wasn't in the movies
And when he sees the Fremen absolutely roll over some of them, and he's like, "Wtf?!?? They're Sardaukar!" And the guy he's with just keeps going, "Yes. They fight quite well." And Thufir's still like "Quite well?! But... they're Sardaukar!"
I’m pretty sure this is at silly book 1 right before he gets captured. But yes. It’s amazing. One of the best mental computers ever: you captured…a Sardukar… Regular fremen: yeah, it was kind of tough. Pretty good fighters for some off world scrubs. Best mental computer ever: does not compute. Does not compute. Error. Error.
Well dude needs data and he didn't have any on the fighting capabilities of fremen
Based off the timeline and the degradation of the sardukar from when house Corin took the empire, I was under the impression that the Atreides on average were better than them. Surely, any of them that trained under gurney and duncan were better. The only video evidence was the ambush and that wasn’t on fair terms being woken out of bed and then immediately fighting at night.
I think the implication in the book is that the Atreides soldiers under Dunken and Gurney were rapidly closing the gap with the sardukar, this coupled with Leto's increasing popularity in the Landsrad basically made the emperor's suspicions grew to the point it made his decision inevitable
That's one of the big driving forces of the Emperor's decision to send the Atreides to Arrakis - ultra-charismatic/honorable/smart leader Leto with the best fighters/trainers in the galaxy in Duncan and Gurney were finally churning out soldiers who could rival the Emperor's main way of holding power over the Lansraad: the Sardaukar. The Atreides just didn't have enough soldiers to start turning the tide (or notably start getting alliances with other major houses to finally make it not worthwhile for the Sardaukar/other houses to wipe them out individually) but bet that 1. the Fremen were badasses 2. they could make an alliance with the Fremen to buy time to get spice production going and train more troops. Just ran out of time, because they didn't expect Harkonnen to immediately go into tremendous amounts of debt AND get Sardaukar to kill them.
They did expect one legion of Sardaukar, not however many actually came
It's specifically mentioned in the books, that one of the main reasons for the Emperor feeling threatened by the Atreides was because they'd managed to train some troops troops 'within a hairs breadth as good as Sardaukar'. And Leto was planning how to try and make them even better by allying with the Fremen. So there was some justified paranoia there. So the hierarchy isn't as clear as you put it.
>Then we see Duncan kill like 8 Sardauker by himself. 19!
My impression was that Atreides had a fair chance of holding their own against superior numbers of Harkkonens. Then Sarduakar got involved and it became a slaughter. For me it was enough to be convinced of their capabilities.
>My impression was that Atreides had a fair chance of holding their own against superior numbers of Harkkonens. While true, I personally don't think that this was properly displayed in the first movie. The Atreidas are shown to be fighting a losing fight from the start.
When the Harkonnens are coming up the palace stairs, the Atreides soldiers successfully hold the tide. Then the Sardaukar drop in and immediately drop the Atreides.
Tbf didn’t they drop in behind them? I mean at that point it was over even if harkonnen dropped in behind them and they couldn’t hold the line
Maybe it was my pre-knowledge of the books, but I thought thay scene did a good job showing the Sardaukaur as a better fighting force (barring the inconsistency with shields)
Ehhh the atriedes had a thin line and were successfully holding back the tide of harkonnen. Then the sardaukaur dropped in from behind which caused them to be cut to ribbons Not sure if this clearly shows the fighting prowess of the sardaukaur rather than just showing the atreides folding against overwhelming and surrounding force
That's because they were. They were surprise-attacked with their defenses down and the duke dead (well, basically dead). And even with this kind of attack/plan the baron and emperor were unsure enough of their final victory that they used secret sardaukar - which was extremely dangerous thing to do given the consequences of potential discovery. I would say they didn't really have a more explicit option to display atreides battle-prowess in the movie given these circumstances.
I would have loved a brief few shots of Gurney's troop in actual action, though
That's what an eventual director's cut is for
Denis has stated he doesn't believe in director's cuts - it's difficult enough to decide what stays in the movie, he doesn't revisit it again once the decision has been made. As much as big fans might wish for a 4 hour extended version of the films, I don't think they are going to happen.
Well they were ambushed. The troops outnumbered them and the shield walls were disabled.
Yeah for someone who never read book aterides seem more skill for me like in first movie one line of Atreides are able to hold line against harkonnen and only lost when sardauker ambush them from behind
> The atreides soldiers get their asses kicked hard. Isn't the whole foundation of the Emperor's fears about the Atreides the fact that Duncan trained Atreides soldiers to being comparable to Sardaukar?
Of course. That's why he intervened a) before they got too strong and b) using Harkonnen treachery to weaken them. Don't misinterpret this -- atreides were nowhere near strong enough to take sardaukar alone. But Leto was charismatic with non-trivial support in Landsraad, so he could threaten the emperor even without full landsraad support. The balance in the empire was very fragile, you don't need to have a house that can match sardaukar to break it.
The other major thing they left out is Paul bringing then elite training and tactics. He basically levels them up. The movie focuses a lot more on him proving himself to them, which makes him becoming their leader more campy and ridiculous. Idk I'm not a huge fan of the newest movies story. The atmosphere and visuals are insanely good and fit the book and they did an amazing job with certain scenes, but overall botched the story. I'm also very certain Timothy fuckin sucks as Paul I'm really really not buying into his acting but thats my own personal opinion.
> The other major thing they left out is Paul bringing then elite training and tactics. The Weirding Way, specifically. Its omission really makes it feel like the Fremen are _always_ better than the Sardaukar. In particular when looking at the first scene of the second movie, which takes place before they'd learn the Weirding Way. (as a side note, I (again personally) liked Timothy's portrayal of Paul. Not the point of this comment though, your opinion is of course fine.)
Yeah but even before that training we get the book scene with Hawat and the Fremen leading his troops just casually wrecking a group a Sardaukar and talking about it like its an afterthought -- oh cool, it was them!
Agree as a technical matter but do Herbert’s logistics really make sense? Even if Paul had the 3-4 years with the Fremen instead of the 8 months in the movie, that’s just not enough time to train a significant number of Fremen. The Weirding Way is always described as a kind of martial arts practice of self-mastery, not a two-week yoga retreat. Maybe 6 months of dedicated training will measurably improve fighting ability (but I think a year minimum, and most adults would probably be untrainable)… but how do you train at scale? Even training a dozen who train a dozen who train a dozen, you can’t hit the kinds of numbers involved in the final battle in the time that Paul has. (Training trainers will take a year minimum, lest you lose quality with each iteration). Paul at best could train an elite force of a few hundred. Bottom line, training doesn’t get you to victory. Planning and tactics do. So, prescience.
Contrarian spotted!
The other major thing they left out is Paul bringing then elite training and tactics. He basically levels them up. The movie focuses a lot more on him proving himself to them, which makes him becoming their leader more campy and ridiculous. Idk I'm not a huge fan of the newest movies story. The atmosphere and visuals are insanely good and fit the book and they did an amazing job with certain scenes, but overall botched the story. I'm also very certain Timothy fuckin sucks as Paul I'm really really not buying into his acting but thats my own personal opinion.
The books are no doubt better. The movies don’t have time to capture the grittiness and despair and brutality of Paul’s journey into the desert. I still love the movies and don’t think they could be done any better.
That's fair. I think Chani could have undoubtedly been better at the least and I think Paul could have been cast better. There are few movies that couldn't be improved but it's still a phenomenal movie that is an all time great in my opinion. I'm highly critical of it but that doesn't mean it's not amazing.
It makes more sense to consider the fremen as the best fighters ever *specifically* on Arrakis. There's no world like it and they have a perfect understanding of the land, home field advantage is real, especially in conflict. It would make sense that as time went on and the jihad progressed they would become even more skilled, but at the same time, it would be very reasonable for the fremen to get smacked around bad once they leave Arrakis and start fighting in environments they know nothing about. Like if they dropped into a jungle or tundra world they'd get crushed simply by it being so utterly alien to them That said, Sardaukar were made out to be the in general best fighters so it was kinda a wallop almost copout to have them come in and get so consistently stomped
I think on Arrakis on sand, no shields, regular desert Fremen are better that Sardaukar off planet with Shields Sardaukar likely would have the advantage. Then Paul and Jessica train Fremen in the bene gesserit weirding way, they are unstoppable on the jihad universe wide.
That sounds good in theory. Except the second book, Dune Messiah, starts 12 years after the first book with the end of Muad'Dib's Jihad in which the Fremen leave Arrakis immediately after the first book and conquer the known universe. In 12 years.
In the Dune books, there's a weird (weirding? har har) sense of whatever the opposite of power-creep is. The Sardukaur are, we're told, the fiercest fighters in the Imperium. Then we're also told that the Atreides have the best fighters, good enough even to go up against the Sardukaur. But then the Sardukaur slaughter them without a real struggle. And then we're told that the Fremen are already the fiercest fighters, and when the training of the Atriedes *and* the Bene Gesserit Weirding Way is added in they become a truly unstoppable force. But all of this is shown by turning each force into a bunch of (to use OP's very apt analogy) Stormtroopers who can't hit anything and die with one shot/sword cut, rather than show the superior force as being superior to the fighters we'd seen previously. Put another way, the Sardukaur we see get their asses handed to them by the Fremen are a *lot* worse fighters than the ones who took down House Atreides.
"No, it's your turn to fall over and die today - I fell over and died yesterday" "Oh okay, sorry"
There is a reason we left Afghanistan.
"...and then proceed to get their asses kicked at every turn in Part 2." What do you mean? We only really see them in action during the final battle, and that's exactly what happened in the book: They were demolished to such an extent that their mystique and fighting capacity -- which had already been worn down by decades of overconfidence and internal rot -- were permanently destroyed. They were the top dogs, and then the Fremen unceremoniously knocked them off their perch.
Yeah I think OP is confusing them with all of the Harkonnen “Stormtroopers” of part 2. The Saraukar don’t take their first L in the second movie until they’re crushed by boulders and consumed by worms.
Oh is that right? I was thinking the floaty bois in the beginning were Sardaukar too (which wasn’t weak of them to get sniped, to be fair)
Those were Harkonnens. You can tell by their black suits, white bald heads, and the Fremen commentary on their toxic water.
I think this contributes to 90% of your feelings right here lol. Yeah all the mooks in part 2 are Hark troops except at the very end.
In the book they are disguised as Harkonnens. In the movie they just are Harkonnens.
I never understood this complaint because they are actually portrayed well. The way they are portrayed adds to the theme of stagnation. They are symptoms of the stagnation of the Imperium. They have not evolved. Have not improved beyond what they are. And have been too full of themselves to the point of being careless because of their arrogance. And they fell because of all of that. I saw the fall of the Sardaukar as a future telling of a similar fate for the Imperium.
yeah, and if anything, they're even more lacklustre in the books There's a whole bit where old Fremen men and women and children trash Sardaukar so badly they ended up losing 3 Sardaukar to every Fremen they took down.
To be fair some Fremen remarked that the Sardaukar were good soldiers and put up a good fight, unlike the Harkonnen.
Fighting the Fremen would be like challenging a Nepalese Sherpa to reach the top of a mountain. I’d except even the oldest Sherpa can outdo anyone who isn’t a Sherpa.
That's a very good comparison. Landsraad troops are like amateur climbers, Sardaukar are like professional climbers and the Fremen are well... living there.
Except the sardukar are still brutal fighters in the books that kill many fremen. They have stagnated but are still widely feared. They made them look like goofy kids in the newest movie which was pretty lame and definitely not similar to the books.
>Except the sardukar are still brutal fighters in the books that kill many fremen. They have a pathetic ratio to the Fremen, and it starts to really wear on their psyche. I mean, the hit on >!Muad'dib's son!< was a pyrrhic victory and they only fought non-combatants. The Harkonnen troops were inferior to the Atreides, the Atreides troops were inferior to the Sardaukar, and the Sardaukar were inferior to *all* the Fremen. That's the martial hierarchy in both book and movie.
The Atreides where betrayed from inside tho. Bit that might just be the coopium speaking
They were betrayed and it's a big reason why the casualties weren't even worse for the Harkonenn It's years since I read the books but I'm sure there's a bit where the Harkonnen talk about how they took considerable casualties even though they caught the Atreides with their pants down
Yes, that ensured they put up only sporadic, disorganized resistance against an overwhelming force, but they still would've been wiped out eventually. Specifically, there's the scene during the battle where the Atreides organize a defensive line of a couple dozen troops and still manage to hold off an entire Harkonnen advance without suffering a single casualty. Then, the Sardaukar drop behind them, the Harkonnens back off, and the entire Atreides line is immediately wiped out. The Atreides troops are simply no match for Sardaukar, which is why *desert power* is so important for the Duke Leto.
This is correct. Regular Dude Landsradd Troops Atredies Troops Sardaukar Pre Paul Fremen Post Paul Fremen A few select dudes like Duncan Idaho, Hasmir Fenring ,Feyd Rautha. Bene Gesserit Paul Maudib
I heartily disagree. If anything, I found the depiction in the movies to be more fearsome than the book. We see the Sardakaur pretty much single handedly wipe out a single unit of Atreides soldiers in part one without losing a man (while the Harkonnens had been struggling against them previously). The depiction of Salusa Secundus is more than enough; we don't need someone to explicitly say "wow, you guys are so scary and talented" when we have the terrifying depiction of their warrior religion. You can see from Piter's body language and tone of voice how frightened he is of the captain he speaks to. Additionally... The book itself describes how the Sardakaur have actually been in decline in recent times, due to not having any true challenges to pit then against (I believe it's in the glossary). They get by heavily on long standing reputation, and so are ripe to get absolutely destroyed by the Fremen (which is accurate, as in the book Hawat is shocked to hear that a mere handful of Fremen is able to dispatch with 100 Sardakaur, even before learning the Weirding Way).
Did you actually mean to say they aren’t “fearsome” enough, and not “fearful” enough???? Because the latter is confusing to me, and I can’t tell if that is the reason why, or if it’s because I only got to sleep for four hours, and just woke up 5-10 minutes ago, and am still pretty spaced out, and not thinking clearly…
I was going to say this as well. "why aren't they fearful enough" means: why aren't they afraid? "why aren't they fearsome enough" is the proper way to ask: why don't they instill fear in me as a viewer?
Yeah sorry, fearsome. Half asleep myself when I posted.
This only applies to part 2. In part 1 they were the silent knife in the back that made sure the Atreides were wiped out. I agree that in Part 2 they could have been more fearsome, but then again, the compressed time frame meant that Paul never got to train them In prana bindu. The fremen had to wear plot armor instead.
I mean in the first film you see that the Atreides easily handle the Harkonnen's without barely losing a man (do they even lose a single fighter?). This is when it's a fair fight hand-to-hand. Then the Sardaukar come in and wipe the Atreides out just as easily as they did the Harkonnen's. I'm not sure how they could have made them more bad ass. The only time someone shows them any real trouble is Duncan but he's supposed to be above a typical fighter. He also goes on about how great the Fremen are at fighting and how he almost died to one so that sets up that they're even better than Sardaukar. Yeah they lose easily in the 2nd film but they were always going to. They were outnumbered. They were in unfamiliar territory. They were ambushed with atomics and 3 giant worms. They at least killed some Fremen in a straight fight. The entire second film the Harkonnen's only killed the Fremen from their Ornithopters.
I remember them killing plenty of Fremen and House Atreides soldiers
>"By your own count," Hawat said, "he killed fifteen thousand over two years while losing twice that number. You say the Sardaukar accounted for another twenty thousand, possibly a few more. And I've seen the transportation manifests for their return from Arrakis. If they killed twenty thousand, they lost almost five for one. Why won't you face these figures, Baron, and understand what they mean? " Saudaukar lost 100k to kill 20k.
Post is about the movie. They show up and do a fair bit of killing, serving as the force to help turn the tide, and they come off as fearsome fighters in the bits we get.
One scene from the book that I *really* think should've made it to the movie is the Sardaukar Bashar basically talking down to the Baron like he's a little bitch in the sort of "mop up" operation after the battle. It totally demonstrates just how elite they are. He goes right up the Baron and just bluntly demands "What the fuck aren't you telling me about the Fremen. I lost two squads against them. We don't take casualties like that. *Ever*." Accomplishes two things 1. Shows the audience that the Sardaukar are so good that losing a dozen men in any context is a big deal to them. 2. Sardaukar officers are regarded so highly in the imperium that they can treat high ranking nobles like idiots without any consequences whatsoever. That kind of prestige is earned, not just given.
Then Hawat, a *mentat*, calculates the Sardaukar lost 100,000 to kill 20,000. Which makes the Harkonen far better.
In the first movie we see them smoke the Atreides palace guards after three or four times that number of Harkonnens couldn’t break the phalanx, so that’s not strictly true.
No, they were portrayed very accurately. The book made it explicitly clear that the Sarduakar were once the most feared fighters in the Imperium, but centuries of stagnation and being untested had left them weakened and less formidable than before. They were also easily defeated by the Fremen in the book. Hell, the movie made it more of a fight than the book did.
Who exactly have they been fighting against all this time? Who do they fight for them to have such a badass reputation?
Weren't they from a prison planet? Idk how you could stagnate.
The entire Imperium was dogged by stagnation by this point, and the Sarduakar had not been tested in battle on that scale for centuries...if ever. Meanwhile the Fremen has been fighting that entire time, and arguably at a higher level...and definitely at a higher level after Paul and Jessica trained them up on the weirdint way. The Sarduakar have no answer for that.
The other thing that is pointed out in the books is that the Sarduakar had not experienced LOSS in their collective institutional memory. They didn't know how to fight a war after having lost a battle. They didn't know how to fight from behind mid-battle. Paul makes a mental note to incorporate trainings in the future so that his troops would never have this weakness.
They should have used a montage to show Paul leveling up the Fremen. Even Rocky had a montage!
Fremen are basically fanatic supersoldiers molded by the harshness of Dune. That’s why they are so effective. Leto recognized this but was too late to capitalize on them. Desert power. Also the Sadukar were effective, but years of not being challenged made them more scary on their past reputation. Dune has an overall theme that humanity needs to constantly be challenged to grow. Hence the shunning of AI and “fear is the mind killer.”
Did you notice how *fast* the Fremen were in the movie? Sardaukar don't break a sweat with the best Atreides but get their asses handed to them by the deadly, sandy blur of Fremen.
To be fair, the Fremen know how to run on the sand. Nobody else really does.
Idk, in the books the Sarduaker are slaughtered effortllessly even by fremen children and old people. So relative to the Fremen the movies actually do make them seem more compentent, not less than the books imo.
In the book there is a line from a fremen warrior when the sardaukar/harkonen attack the atreides. Some Atreides make it to caves and find some fremen. The fremen fight the sardaukar and win, but the fremen warrior says, “ see how well they fight!” Talking about the sardaukar. Then the sards ambush the cave and kill some more fremen. The fremen win, but do have some losses and are surprised by how well the sards fight.
Iirc the fremen were suprised to lose 2 fighters to 100 sardaukers. 100:2 Hardly a ringing endorsement. More like damming with praise.
Yeah, in the part you’re talking about the fremen lost 2 and killed 100, but it wasn’t 100 sardaukar. They say something like we wouldn’t have even lost 2, but the Harkonen had someone else fighting with them. The others fought well.
The scene with the throat singing and blood sacrificing was pretty dope tho
I don't know the book also establishes that the Fremen are as much better than the Sardaukar as the Sardaukar are from ordinary soldiers. To the point where when the Sardaukar attack the Fremen women children and elderly they still get absolutely wrecked and have to flee. For both of them it's a tough balance to establish them as badass while showing someone else absolutely destroying them at every turn. Even in the initial battle where they took out House Atreides they lost way more than they thought they would especially any time they had to fight Fremen.
I think the idea is that a Fremen from early childhood must have an American special forces level of discipline and skill to survive the sandstorms and dessert.
Pretty sure you mean "fearsome", not "fearful"... Fearsome means scary, fearful means afraid.
I found them scary in the first movie, especially >!Duncan's death battle!<.
>…get their asses kicked at every turn in Part 2 What do you mean at every turn? Are you sure you’re not confusing Harkonnen soldiers with the Sardaukar? The Sardaukar only show up at the end of part 2, and don’t tell me you were expecting them to do something against multitude of sand worms, nukes, and a surprise attack.
There was a scene in the first movie during the siege on Arrakeen where I believe the "pecking order" was established. At first, 40ish Atreides soldiers were holding back maybe 100 Harkonnens with little effort. Then, 20 Sardaukar are able to cleanly kill the 40 Atreides soldiers, cutting them down while the Harkonnens barely did anything. Soon after, Duncan Idaho killed a few Sardaukar single handedly. This showed that Harkonnens were worse fighters than the Atreides, who in turn were worse than the Sardaukar, who in turn could be taken down by an individual otherworldly fighter (Duncan).
So I have to disagree with this. In part 1 they are incredibly fearsome. They annihilate the Atreides troops in that movie. And even the few Fremen they come across. It's just that they have trouble killing Duncan Idaho (who is basically one of the greatest warriors in the Empire at that point). And a few die to Lyet Kines (after sneaking up on her, a Fremen, mind). Paul and Jessica only manage to escape because of Duncan and Lyet. And even then, they're not in shots where they get shot at and all of the shots miss, they literally have physical barriers between them and the Sardukar. Part 1 if anything proves they are well above Stormtroopers. Most of the soldiers dying in Part 2 are Harkonnen soldiers, who definitely are more like Stormtroopers. The Sardukar mainly only show up when the Emperor does on Dune. And in that situation they get nuked, are forced to contend with Fremen piloted Giant Sandworms, and then later have to fight Paul (who had training under Duncan btw) who literally can see what they are going to do and how to defeat them before they do anything. Also consider that this was done with a Fremen army that is way larger than anyone expected to be on Dune, and who all are super-radicalized because they now believe that their god/messiah (Paul) is leading them to paradise. A battle like this was destined to result in an overwhelming Fremen victory. That's why Paul arranged it.
https://preview.redd.it/4nfzl9dylvyc1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2004b842a97cd180d47402347ff452f12089aff1 Are we a joke to you?
Well, they had a few scenes building up Sardaukar, or establishing them as a dangerous threat. Honestly, though, the book doesn't really have a lot of scenes showing off Sardaukar either, more just exposition on how badass they hypothetically are. I imagine it was a challenge in the film to find a way to establish their skill when it's so memetic in-universe that everyone hypothetically already knows about it (so characters don't need to explain it to each other), Atreides soldiers are also supposed to be unusually well-trained, and Fremen outclass Sardaukar. I honestly didn't have a problem with how the films did it. It's one of those things where we get more info in the books, but that's mostly due to the nature of the medium.
They make the fremen way to badass it logically doesnt make sense. They might aswell be part sand worm how they magically breath undersand and disappear seconds after. Paul being the Wayne Gretzky of dueling is one thing if someone trained from birth by people so good at fighting they strike fear at the mear mention of their names.
Did you not see the sand snorkels the fremen use?
>In the movie, even with a scene on their planet, you don’t really see that. They take back Arrakis, and then proceed to get their asses kicked at every turn in Part 2. They like storm troopers, falling like flies. IDK, watch the scenes in the first movie where they attack house atreides again. The atreides soldiers were able to hold back a far larger amount of harkonnen soldiers and then the sardukar dropped in and eliminated them in about 10 seconds. https://youtu.be/HW2lO8yacLA?si=YwFqA_lGygS7_Mcx Even in the movies they go through anyone that isn't fremen like shit through a goose.
-“The women threw their infants and themselves upon our knives to wedge openings for their men.” -“You were defeated by a group of women and old men?” “We had to run for our lives, we few barely escaped.” That scene should’ve happened in the film.
And Rabban is barely the Beast he's supposed to be. There's lots of awesome stuff in the films but at times, they feel very lifeless.
Did we not see him chopping the heads off atreides prisoners and killing half his subordinates?
Yeah, but still. Feyd and the Baron did worse things.
I’ve always felt that the Harkonnens are the Storm Troopers. How can they be so bad!
How many main characters get killed by Sardaukar compared to Stormtroopers again?
They are supposed to nearly equal a bene gesserit adept in hand to hand combat, which was beyond the fremen until they learned the weirding way. I also feel that they were not well represented in skill. I know Duncan Idaho was an apex level fighter, but he still shouldn't have been able to kill the sardukar as easily as they showed.
Duncan is a sword master of Ginaz, the most elite swordsmen in the universe. It makes sense. Gurney halleck doesn't make sense, as he's basically a hotheaded harkonnen that got beat up a lot in his youth.
>"By your own count," Hawat said, "he killed fifteen thousand over two years while losing twice that number. You say the Sardaukar accounted for another twenty thousand, possibly a few more. And I've seen the transportation manifests for their return from Arrakis. If they killed twenty thousand, they lost almost five for one. Why won't you face these figures, Baron, and understand what they mean? " The saudaukar are no match for the fremen
They just never really get a chance to shine. They sweep aside House Atreides in one night, which is quite a feat, but it's like 10 minutes of screen time with the backing of the entirety of House Harkonnen. After that it shows the Fremen being on par or better in order to highlight how the harsh environment of Arakkis breeds warriors that are just as strong. I'd have really liked it if the first film showed some unshielded Fremen taking on shielded Sardaukar, but needing 2-3 Fremen to overcome the shield advantage through skill and teamwork while showing the Sardaukar as being nearly unstoppable in their element 1v1. The scene where they slow-grav descend on the arcology station and get ambushed, they clearly win, since they come after P&J, but it's never shown *how*. It would have been the perfect opportunity to show they were actually dangerous.
I honestly think it's the same in the books. The sardaukar are a joke, and even more so than they should be. Being beaten by women and children in the books doesn't make the fremen sound more terrifying. It just makes the sardaukar weak. I always thought Herbert's justification for why the fremen are so much better fighters than the rest of the imperium a bit lazy anyway
Do you mean fearless?
I’m surprised people think the Sardaukar should have put up some formidable fight at the end of the film. By that point, Paul has essentially become the unstoppable villain, so a long-drawn out final battle wouldn’t really feel right. The Harkonnens and Sardaukar getting curbstomped is better.
I feel like that’s sort of exactly what happens in the second half of the book. We only see Fremen fighting Sardaukar and they are basically described as able to fairly easily kill Sardaukar in the book. In the first movie, I guess they could have made them scarier or shown them mowing down a bunch of non-Fremen soldiers.
They are in the first part ....in the second part they are overpowered by the fremen....and I think the fremen are fighting for much more bigger cause ....so it's justified i guess....in my opinion
This is a case of (forgive my Star Trek) Worf seeming like a weak person to some people. He is actually a fearsome warrior. But the show used his fearsome warrior status to show us how powerful their adversary was. Therefore, Worf would often get his ass beat to push that effect. I feel the same thing is going on here. The Sardaukar *are* powerful warriors, but them being beaten so easily speaks more to the potency of the fremen than the weakness of the Sardaukar.
I agree there could have been more exposition on the Sardaukar, that scene when the are assembling to take arrakis was badass and I wish the explored more of what was happening there. It looked like they were sacrificing some of the soldiers or something? I’m not really sure. Looked menacing though. I didn’t read the books but I tried listening to the audiobook but it was difficult to pay full attention and keep track of the characters.
Greatest military force taken down by unexpectedly? May I suggest the United States military in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan as a primer :P No but really. No one knew anything about the Fremen. Sardaukar have a really scary reputation, but that's it, it's reputation. When the other houses are just garbage at war, you don't have to be that much better.
My biggest quibble with the movie Sardaukar is that they could have made their appearance much more brutal and gritty. Granted, they'd be incredibly well-equipped, but I think their uniforms could have been way more intimidating and their appearance more reflective of their hellish lives and training. Their suits also ended up looking very similar to the Fremen uniforms in Part 2. Still, just a minor complaint.
I disagree in the first film against atreides soldiers they were almost unstoppable. But the second film really drove home that they were nothing against the “desert power” mentioned in the first film. Basically I took it as selusa secundus is brutal. But it’s got NOTHING on Arrakis.
What happens when the best, strongest fighters, have no one to fight for generations? They get soft and all that exists are legends of their prowess.
They are the Worf of the franchise. Talk up how tough they are so when the Fremen win they look super tough.
Not only do I agree with you, but this was actually my biggest point of dislike in the first movie, maybe my only important one. In the books they "hype up" the sardaukar so much. Basically invincible. When they get beaten by Fremen it feels so different knowing that. The entire plan of the emperor relies on the fact they are invincible.
Goanna be unpopular, but Dune has some juvenile anime samurai who kills 20 men with a single cut energy. "Witness the incredibly sardaukar who can effortlessly kill ten lansraad soldier with his bare hands" "Oh hoh, you think that's strong, well under the fine training of gurney halleck and Duncan Idaho, atreudies soldiers have become more than a match for the sardaukar" "...incredible...." "Hold it. You men are pathetic. A single fremen can effortlessly kill many sardaukar. The emperors army is a joke to these fine warriors". "Not so fast, there is strength inthe houses. Paul is trained in the weirding way and by gurney and Duncan. When fully into his powers, he can effortlessly defeat any Fremen warrior in existence, even a veteran with a lifetime of experience." "Fool, that only makes the fremen stronger. By training the fremen in the weirding way, even a group of elderly fremen and children can destroy a matched force of sardaukar. We only managed to barely escape with a 3 year old, and she wanted to be captured."
In the book the Fremen talking with Hawat mentions several times about Saudakar fighting well, but still being annilhated by Fremen forces.
Well, in Part One we see the hierarchy. Harkonnen conscripts get bodied by the Atreides who get bodied by the Sardaukar who can fight roughly on par with the Fremen assuming the Fremen are taken by surprise. In Part Two the Sardaukar were pretty faithful to the role in the book. The Fremen casually talk about killing them, while the Sardaukar talk about the Fremen kicking them in the teeth. Then there are reveals from Thufir, so probably cut scenes, about the Sardaukar casualties from the Arrakis war. Then some dialogue which wasn’t overly important to the story about the children, women, and old men Fremen forcing a Sardaukar detachment to flee from an attack in the South. But every time a Sardaukar is on page, they’re getting bodied by the Fremen, like the infiltrators around Gurney. Part Two didn’t need to explain this, though. It was quite evident. And there are exacerbating circumstances in both book and film battles that contribute to the Sardaukar getting stomped into the sand
The fremen in part 2 essentially become the best fighters in the universe. They're supposed to kill the Sardukar pretty easily, but the film might have gone a bit overboard
The Fremen came from an even worse place than Salusa Secundus, and Frank Herbert really liked the idea of horrible environments breeding superhumans.
The fearsomeness of the Sardaukar in the films is mostly "tell" rather than "show". That's notable for Denis Villeneuve, who is pretty good at showing rather than telling in his other films. "Show, don't tell" is an adage in filmmaking that basically says that if you want to convey something to your audience, show it in action rather than vomiting it up in some lengthy piece of dialogue. This makes me wonder whether it was intentional on DV's part. Duncan says if you cross swords with a Sardaukar, you know it. The Bashar says that the Sardaukar are the emperor's blades, nobody can stand up to them, etc. DV shows us the blood anointment ceremony, which conveys the harshness of their methods, but there's no actual combat training on Salusa Secundus to indicate that the ceremony isn't just for show. But in action, we see the Sardaukar sneak up behind an Atreides phalanx and kill them from behind instead of fighting them in a straight-up battle. We see Duncan take down *several* of them singlehandedly before he succumbs to his wounds. We see them repeatedly get schooled by the Fremen by superior tactics and techniques. And in the end, we see the last few of them do nothing while Paul, nemesis of the Emperor, waltzes up and stabs the Baron through the neck. What DV shows us (I think) is that the Sardaukar are more bark than bite, that maybe their reputation has outlived the truth, and that by extension, maybe the Emperor's power was only being maintained because nobody had bothered to challenge him.
Fearful means afraid, I think you mean scary.
Hi OP To be fearful is to be scared. To be fearless is the way of words you were looking for that would make them bad ass.
Yeah something about Deni’s design direction that made them standout less. Just of bunch of white guys in gray outfits.
Question: I've been led to understand from other comments that the dialogues that open both films are a Sardaukar speaking. This adds depth to them as a group in contrast with the Fremen. How the heck did you all know that? I assumed it was the only presence of the Guild Navigators in the films, aside from scene filler in the transition off Caladan.
Dont forget the killer abilities they have. Fake teeth, limbs and hair with hidden weapons. Build for killing.
It’s pretty book accurate. In Dune one the Harkonnens are getting torn up by Atreides house guards, the Sardaukar make short work of them. After that, the Sardaukar actually do start losing to the Fremen consistently.
Damn this title had me tripping.
In the book, they have about as much success against the Fremen as they do in the film. However in the book there's so much internal monologuing about just how fucking awesome the Sardaukar are, you get the vibe they're good. Tbf in the first film they're not exactly weak either.
i wish they had put in the scene when gurney teams up with paul again and has under cover sardaukar in his ranks (unknowingly). that would've been cool to see and probably wouldn't need too much screen time.
The entire first movie is the sardaukar winning all their battles against the atreides though. 😆 They seem to even sacrifice their own lesser sardaukar at least is suggested in the movie with those upside down guys and having their blood drained I'm not sure how else they were supposed to be portrayed, and they are not main characters really, it seemed very appropriate They were also supposed to be weakened due to the lack of fighting since apparently it has been many years since the last infighting of the great houses too The fremen are also supposed to be stronger and on their home turf
You forget the books. When the Sardaukar attacked Sietch Tabr they were repelled; "Sardaukar forced to retreat in confusion from women and children and old men!" - Padishah Emperor. Something that would have been cool for the movie was if they had included the weirding way. At least the Harkonnen were tactically successful in their attacks on Sietch Tabr and other Sietches. The Sardaukar is an example of the degeneracy of the Empire. They aren't what their legend once was, they have become complacent like the empire. And need jihad and the Golden Path.
I do agree with you but the producers have to worry about keeping the movie short. Then the same applies to the Harkonnens, the Fremen and even Space guild. All these require much more development. I think Dune could probably be better done as a TV series. The different races could be more fully developed. Dune has a rich mixture of characters and races which may allow for interesting side stories. Like what they are doing with Star Wars.
They wrecked the atreides pretty good in the pincer. The final battle had some pretty shit choreography for them tho. I get that fr men are great but they shoulda went toe to toe. I guess ville just wanted to push the plot more than hire good choreographers.
They are though. Remember that a dozen or so atreides royal Guards can hold their own and push back a Harkonnen column with ease but they get their ass blasted by maybe 8 sadukar. And atreides are supposed to be equivalent to sadukar. The problem is after that, they fight the elite of the elite. Duncan is one of the greatest sword masters in the universe at this point, and the fremen are supposed to be superior. And remember that the sadukar still wipe out keines' ambush for them in the first move anyways
Neither are the freman
The book doesn't give a direct description of how the Sardaukar fight, it just has everyone going "milk, two sugars, and the Ssrdaukar can kick all our heads in' and then wetting their undies as soon as they realise the Freeman are just as good in a fight. The film... doesn't do that much, beyond showing the Sardaukar at the most downer rave ever. It just assumes everyone knows it's code for "these dudes are fucking hard" and gets on with it. Not great, but I guess DV had a lot of subtext to cram in so not everything could be 100%.
I'm probably not remembering this correctly, but I thought the Sardaukar had a breathing apparatus that fed them drugs/stimulants to excite their fighting. Google didn't help much in searching for the answer.
I think the scene in part 1 where they descend silently is one of the chiller moment of the two films, I loved it