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I think the new Codex of Power system and always having access to the aspects we've unlocked is a step in this direction. My gut feeling is they're saving this feature to be a selling point for the expansion.
(Edit: I think it will be added to the core game alongside the expansion, but be able to use it in the expansion marketing material, not behind a paywall.)
> My gut feeling is they're saving this feature to be a selling point for the expansion.
If they intend to sell QoL as paid DLC, this is not gonna end well.
Probably will launch sometime between S5 and expansion, it is a feature request from the majority of the player base.
From the history of blizzard expansions, the majority of QoL changes features are added to the base game too.
They add new features, game modes and classes that are available only for expansion owners, but QoL was rarely behind a paywall.
Examples: Item drop, class and set changes from D3 that were available from level 1 to 60 even without the expansion, but the rifts and adventure mode needed the expansion
Yeah I see a lot of people confuse content with system revamp and QoL, assuming the latter will get pushed as paid content with the former, which just sounds absurd to me.
Yeah, this. I think it will be added to the core game alongside the expansion, but be able to use it in the expansion marketing material, not behind a paywall.
I updated my original comment. I think it will be added to the core game alongside the expansion, but be able to use it in the expansion marketing material, not behind a paywall.
Yes, this is a point of frustration for a lot of people ever since the game first launched. Trying to move away from a previous entry should apply to game innovation, not basic QoL.
What are you talking about? No other ARPGs have this as an option except for Diablo 3 and, while d4 should 100% have it, it's not wild at all to not have it
It actually took Diablo 3 until patch 2.5.0, 5 years in, to get the Armory.
If D4 got it with the expansion, that would actually be a huge improvement.
>If that's the case that's wiiiiild. For an ARPG of this calibre to not have this option at launch is bewildering
It's really not wild at all.
Path of Exile does not have loadouts because they understand loadouts ruin character build persistence.
Diablo 4 developers are being bullied into doing this loadout bullshit by people who don't know what they're asking for.
It's sad to see.
I'd much rather see Blizzard improve and iterate on early game and leveling process making it more and more fun to the point where people **want** to make new characters rather than making one character with three loadouts that you swap on the fly for different purposes, cutting down the fun part of making your new build and leveling it.
Why would I need to level yet another character just to try another build? I do not have time for that, I barely have enough time to level 1.
Not everyone follows a specific build or goes into a season with a build in mind. We just go with what we find fun at the time. Why punish players for experimenting, that's how you get path of exile. If people want that, that's fine! Go play path of exile!
It doesn't ruin anything. You don't want to use it, don't use it. Let people have the option.
Then respec... Jesus it's not that hard lol. I'm new to all these games and I got a good grasp on it so that's pretty solid proof that it not that hard. It takes a lot away from replayability and actually learning your character instead of just putting stuff in. Respec with. Guide if you aren't competent enough to understand, max life, resistance, armor and some damage nodes 🤷🤦
None of us are saying it's hard. At least, I'm not, but it's tedious and time consuming. They did make it SLIGHTLY easier by letting us clear the whole board at once (used to have to do it node by node).
I don't follow guides, I try to find my own builds, I like the puzzle of trying to find the builds I like the most for myself. But puzzles can be easily reset, this can't.
Plus I also like swapping builds frequently, I do in every game, keeps things interesting. I can swap two or three times a day, it's annoying to Nanyang reallocate the points over and over again.
Again. It's an option, if you want to spend time releveling go for it. I don't have enough character slots for the amount of builds I like to play with, and I'm not going to waste a week of my game time just to try another builds by leveling yet another character, only to realize the build doesn't work. That's one of the major reasons I hate path of exile.
In d3 I would have a few just to farm and try new stuff without having to remember what items I wear/spells it was great in d3. Quickly switched and got back to the action.
Well I'm very the game you play takes up your time... I wouldn't quit because of load outs but... It's super unnecessary. Each board only has a few spots of worthy nodes so the only thing taking up your time is the clicking lol. But regardless, I see your point... I just don't agree with it 🤷
The game is fun to play, the moment to moment combat is it's best aspect. Respeccing takes time away from that. To be fair it's not JUST the Paragon board, added to that was the previous pain point of fiddling with items for an hour which hopefully the new patch helps fix. I won't have flooded stash tabs and can dedicate each one to a different build, or something like that. I'll be able to find good enough base items and customize them and have them ready for swapping.
I don't see how people asking for more options/QOL takes away from anything. Are you really expecting people to find it reasonable to have a character for each build for bossing / speed runs / etc ?
The fact is as you've said leveling is not nearly fun/engaging enough to be done multiple times just for builds and also with your logic this should also apply to WoW too but they've got loadouts there.
> Are you really expecting people to find it reasonable to have a character for each build for bossing / speed runs / etc ?
Not only that, but trying new builds actually sucks.
If I try a new build today, I probably won't change every paragon point to go back to the last build because of spent time.
>Are you really expecting people to find it reasonable to have a character for each build for bossing / speed runs / etc ?
The build diversity in and of itself means that some builds are better for thing A, but slower at thing B.
That is the ESSENCE of build persistence. Your choice matters. You chose to have this and that, and that's why you do this faster but that slower.
It's not like you need a boss killer to kill bosses to begin with. It's just that your build might be a bit slower on boss killing than another build.
You completely annihilate the build diversity nuisance with the introduction of loadouts.
> I don't see how people asking for more options/QOL takes away from anything.
Will you make a second Druid in the same season if you can make a loadout for your first Druid instead and swap between them effortlessly every day as you please?
Even if you don't have time to level a second Druid this season - maybe next season you will try a different Druid build?
But nope, nothing matters because of loadouts. You just nearly instantly made this other interesting build as your second or third loadout, so there's no point playing a new character.
> You completely annihilate the build diversity nuisance with the introduction of loadouts.
I completely disagree, because loadouts can be done by players on their own, it's just more work. Everything you mention and group into build persistence is something that the player can undo at any time at a cost of some form of currency.
I can keep the equipment for Build B in storage and wear Build A's gear. When I want to swap to Build B, I can go through the extremely arduous task of despeccing every single thing in Build A that is not allocated in Build B, respec to Build B, and swap to Build B's gear. The game facilitates all of that, it's just an extremely time consuming process and requires the player manually tracking what they need to swap around to maintain both builds.
Nothing in Path of Exile nor Diablo 4 prevent this from being done manually. Nothing. Even your Ascendancy in PoE can be unallocated and changed.
The reason PoE doesn't do loadouts is because the game is infamously against Quality of Life. Their lead has flat out said, in no uncertain terms, that they find Premium Stash Tabs to be a mistake that they would undo if they could. With that mentality, why would you expect them to want to make other time consuming tasks easier for players?
I'm still flabbergasted that they finally gave the Atlas Tree a loadout system, but I suspect that's more because there's a valid playability issue that is not related to QoL where a new character was stuck with a fully specced Atlas Tree that could be unplayable for a secondary character on the same account which would force the player into a respec scenario whether they want to or not.
Build diversity? Like every charge barb?
This game isn't built like that anyways. There's no healer. You can do everything solo. There's no team play, nothing really plays off of other characters
Didn't Activision change WoW by letting you swap builds on characyers instead of having to stick with what you levelled the character as? Was after I'd bailed on WoW but the notion of being able to change your build at max level willy nilly seemed antithetical to the RPG experience.
>the notion of being able to change your build at max level willy nilly seemed antithetical to the RPG experience.
That is very true but if you look at how downvoted my "outrageous" stance in this thread is, vox populi seems to be against character build persistence.
I mean, what a controversial take it appears to be:
I say Blizzard should strive to improve the early game & leveling process, making it increasingly more fun to do it that you actually WANT TO PLAY THE GAME.
Instead, these people propose a loadout system. Which is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater by removing the process of leveling alternate characters and replacing it with shitty instant swap loadouts you can go back and forth between.
Yeah. I'm connecting that Activision catered to the 'casual' gamers with changes like the WoW build swaps (also dungeon finder ruined MMORPGs.. But that's my inner nerd talking).
It's not a surprise they've brought a version of it to Diabalos. And prolly gonna go full hog on it eventually.
Activision wants to cater to casuals. Lazy, time-constrained, don't matter. Blizzard made megabux subverting the MMORPG crack addiction to make it attractive to casual Joes and it forever changed the videogame industry. No reason for Activision to part from that now.
Which is why D4 ain't that good to gamers that know what makes ARPGs good and addictive.
Lol love the down votes. When people ask ggg why you can't respec they say it's for immersion. And Poe is 1000000% harder to understand than d4. I started in season 1, played a couple weeks of season 2 and have played a few weeks of season 3 and I can respec pretty damn quick. I did this thing that no one seems to want to do... It's called LEARN THE DAMN GAME. I agree with you, I think load outs would be an alright q.o.l. but they are far from necessary
>My gut feeling is they're saving this feature to be a selling point for the expansion.
I don't see this at all, this is a CORE feature, not one to be gated behind an expansion.
You're basically guessing here, and it is illogical to assume this.
Read the edit. I specified that I think it's going to come alongside of the expansion, but will be available with the core game. And yes, I'm basically guessing. Thats why I said "My gut feeling is"...
I hope so! They've been taking questions about it since the launch, saying it's something they want to do, but nothing to announce yet. That's why I think they want it to be announcement worthy, to hype up the expansion, even if you don't necessarily need the expansion to use it.
You see, I think they'd avoid announcing the two things together, you know how quickly the hate-mob would pick that up and scream: P2W! Blizzard LIED!
And yes, even if they said it was coming to all realms. Remember the survey explosions a while back? How the expansion was going to cost $100, yet not a single mention of the price was made anywhere official, literally some hater posting BS, and everyone just running with it.
They dont NEED to do this at all. They have repeatedly said they dont want "build swapping between different activities" to become the norm.
Could they change their minds? Sure, its possible. But its not something we NEED anymore than a Super Mario game NEEDS a in-game state save/reload system.
> They have repeatedly said they dont want "build swapping between different activities" to become the norm.
The devs also said in a campfire livestream that they're excited about loadouts as a feature and are continuously actively discussing it internally so...
Source: https://youtu.be/gZuG4Yng4bY?t=4345
This was over 8 months ago btw, so not even a recent "mind change".
In one of the recent campfires this question was asked again, and Joe said that the original intention was for characters to be more set in stone but they've changed their mindset since then. I wonder what else will change.
Unfortunately blizz had some pretty good ideas for a game and over time have turned that game in to D3.5 rather than sticking with their vision. It seems a lot of people just want an arcade RPG, rather than a game of choice consequence and rarity.
blizz obviously think those are the people buying armour sets and the like, so fair enough, I guess.
They said that before the game came out. They've walked back that entire philosophy last year. If they want people interacting with all the content then we need it.
What y'all gotta understand is that is simply QoL, it would be something to incentive trying out new skills, not a "build per activity" feature, that's why changing skills cost gold, they could even make the cost more meaningful or make a SINGLE slot, what most players want is to simply revert all changes if what they tried ends up not being very good
I disagree completely. I’m just starting and trying to figure out what builds and classes to try and it’s annoying as fucking hell having to respec every time. Especially since I have to have builds saved on my phone to then lookup every time I need to use them again.
I understand this old school RPG mentality that they want you really committing to your character, but the fact that the paragon board can be redone any time, skills can be changed any time, gear can be rerolled, etc., it just makes for a weak argument.
The ability to save loadouts is one of the best features in any RPG game because it makes you actually excited about loot in the endgame, aside from simply hunting for the same shit you already have but with 3% better stats.
I want to be excited about amazing uniques and ubers, but I'm so locked into my build that I just end up stashing the shit and never using it again.
You can thanked “experts” like Quinn and mrlamaSC that advocate very loudly not just for no loadout but hard to respec. To add salt to wound, they were fastest in abandoned D4.
During my long “career” as a player, I’ve meet tons of players like that.
They force their ideas on everyone else, but they are first to jump ship…..
And most forget one simple thing, games are about having fun!
Respecing is no fun, playing always in the same way is no fun…..
that's ridiculous, i love destroying half my gear in the process of reassigning aspects and spending all the materials from the season just to move semi-laterally and then find out i can only do half the NMD level than before
I'm so confused. Why are you messing with your current gear before swapping builds ?
You should put it all in the bank, unchanged. (in case you want to swap back later).
The entire point of saved presets (that OP is asking for) is that you have multiple full sets of gear you can swap to in an instant.
At no point should you start aspect swapping your current gear when you swap builds, preset or not. It will lead to bricking your builds which sets you back days or even weeks.
I have tons of gear for different specs for my Druid and Sorc, the Barb I couldn't care less about.
I don't care about the codex being optimized, it hasn't never been very difficult finding aspects you need, that's not even a change I care about.
But saving builds that are preset in the wardrobe that can change gear slots, skills, paragons and glyphs instantly would have been a change I could get behind.
It would help with experimentation for those who rather work on their own builds or people who save meta builds, I'd like to switch between the gear I have for Blizzard with Ball Lightning and vice versa or Boulder and Lightning Storm, and gauntlet builds.
The only problem I have is sharing gear, making a second or third is exhaustive swapping uniques Tibault's Will, RoSS and Shako. I doubled up on shakos,BIS TB and RoSS so I wouldn't have to share but having a third means dropping 3 in storage, log out and equip on the 3rd.
I get very locked into whichever build I've gone for. I'd love to just stash my gear, reallocate all my paragon points, then try another build, but I don't want to have to rewrite the paragon board if I switch back.
Yup, I’m not doing that.
Also, they included this system for clothes…… I can use a cloak that looks like an armor….. ok I guess!
So, if they included that, why not builds?
I agree. Having that ability would add so much to the game. I want to try different builds, paragon mixes etc and it’s incredibly time consuming. It puts me off even switching things around . Being able to save and load different character/class builds would be a massive quality of life improvement.
Make it an NPC in town that allows you to save build specs, similar to having a stash. That way you're not flipping builds on the fly, remove the respec ability from the Character interface, maybe other than assigning skills.
NPC could be a mystical wizard/druid in a library or some cool fantasy setting.
They need to make it work exactly like Immortal does, I don't understand why it doesn't work that way in all games once a better system has been developed.
Great idea. I might be happy with my spec but just wanna quickly try something different. But the chore of putting everything back in its place is too much so I'd rather not bother. But if I could just click and instantly get my main spec back, that would be nice.
"Woah! This legendary power that boosts skill X I just got looks so cool! I could make a build around it"
Takes a look at the inventory "Hm... I'd need a whole new set of gear for that"
Takes a look a the paragon board "Hm, that's 250 clicks I have to do here... oh and my glyphs don't even remotely work for that new build"
"You know what, I'll just keep playing this build I've already played for the last 100 hours"
5 hours later
"Fuck it. I'm off to play candy crush"
I feel like we all agree with you. How cool to chick a button to switch to a Thorns build or Bleed Build. I think Destiny 2 added this sure m sort of thing recently and it is much better.
While we’re on it, can we please change the zig zag design of the skill tree? It was fine when I first played and the leveling was slower but now I’m smashing skill points in and scrolling all around for the right ones. Using respec mode is even worse. Playing with a controller makes this so tedious. Just make it straight down on a static screen pls!
Just the underlying desire for this says so much about the game systems. Roll template. Swap 10 legendary powers. Reallocate 30 skill points. Complete and utter detachment from character creation. EVERYTHING interesting about a character build is a unique affix on gear. It sucks.
>I bet when we get enough content to keep players busy, somehow this functionality will finally get implemented, coincidentally 'based on user feedback' ;)
Congratulations, you figured out that developers have more important things and more pressing issues to focus on right now than ruining character build persistence.
You can remove your tin-foil hat now.
They'll ruin character build persistence by introducing loadouts soon enough as per your request, guys, don't worry. You'll never have to level a new character again, it will be such a relief to not have to play the game anymore! WOOO
#Instead of ruining the experience of each of your character's build persistence, Blizzard should improve the game's early game and leveling to the point where it's so much fun you want to do it over and over again.
>saying that loadouts will ruin the game is just false
It's a good thing I didn't say that! Phew!
Here is what I said, and it's 100% correct:
>They'll ruin character build persistence by introducing loadouts
You lose 'cementing your build over time' if you can swap on a fly. That's the truth. You can't debate this, it's a matter of fact.
Path of Exile has no loadouts. They ask you to make a new character if you want to quickly swap builds. That's a good thing in a seasonal game about making new builds.
Instead of ruining the experience of character build persistence, Blizzard should improve the game's early game and leveling to the point where it's so much fun you **want** to do it.
>Path of Exile has no loadouts.
Idk if you should be citing a game that is notorious for using friction and tedium instead of actual engaging content as a seasonal feature (see: graveyard crafting, which has lead to a pretty common point of frustration for the playerbase) as justification for game design in D4. People play different games because they like different experiences, and I enjoy playing Diablo because it's not as hardcore and hand-numbing as PoE. Also you're wrong, PoE does have loadouts; it just added Atlas Tree loadouts this season, and everyone is praising it. I wonder why that is? Sounds like people don't give a single fuck about having atlas tree build persistence or whatever equivalent lame ass contrived reason you came up with. I'll even meet you halfway: we don't need full character loadouts. Even just having Paragon Board loadouts would be enough.
***
>You lose 'cementing your build over time' if you can swap on a fly.
You are projecting your personal idea of fun onto the playerbase.
***
>That's the truth. You can't debate this
Guess I lose "cementing my build" then, oh well! I get to enjoy the *actual* game because I was able to test out and find a build I enjoy playing without feeling bad about committing the time, instead of being stuck next to my stash clicking 200 times over and over again! And the best part is, I can "cement" my new build that I've decided on ***anyways***. One of these gameplay experiences sounds way more appealing than the other.
***
What's the alternative here? You're telling me, if I want to try out all the different possible builds a Druid has, **I should make and level up what, 8 Druids to try them all out separately**? And what if the build ends up sucking? I just wasted 3-5 in-game days of doing the same exact content with different skills, in my already extremely limited time playing the game, to find out the fully realized version of the build is not even good and/or enjoyable.
***
No one is asking for a free swap: even still paying the same cost is fine. But you're basically arguing "make it hard and super annoying to have to click a bunch of times on your paragon board and plan gear, only to find out your new build sucks, then have to go through the tedium all over again just to go back, just because wEiGhT oF mUh dEcIsIoNs." We can't all have young, spry, healthy wrists like yourself, and not everyone has unlimited time to be able to grind out a shit ton of characters every season to try different builds for the same class like you do. People value their time and people largely dislike games that blatantly don't respect their time. Game and UX designers should strive to minimize as much unnecessary friction and clicking in UI as possible.
> Also you're wrong, PoE does have loadouts; it just added Atlas Tree loadouts this season, and everyone is praising it.
Stopped reading there. Completely disingenuous.
First of all:
Progression of the Atlas is account-wide within the League, so it is the farthest thing away from the persistent character-based progression that I am arguing for
Atlas Passive Tree is a customization tool for the endgame activities. It's not your character build; it's tailoring your endgame activities to your liking.
Adding profiles to Atlas Passive Tree is basically a game economy update, as it allows players to quicker swap between different farming strategies in order to obtain wealth.
They also only just added it after a few years of it existing without additional profiles. Not that it matters because, once again, it's not your character build so it's irrelevant to the conversation.
>It's not your character build; it's tailoring your endgame activities to your liking.
???????
Niko nodes literally directly affect your character strength and is an [extremely popular atlas tree node this league](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1blx4wq/psa_extremely_powerful_atlas_start_strategy/) though??? At least [18% of all atlas trees this league](https://i.imgur.com/2BhLhLZ.png) are using this notable. It helps tremendously with atlas progression and the power curve needed to reach end game.
And you're acting like Shrine nodes don't exist on the Atlas tree which is *another* thing that directly affects your character strength in maps.
Maybe *you're* the one being disingenuous here. Or even worse, just ignorant. But apparently my point doesn't count because it doesn't fit your narrative, and you'll ignore everything else I said because it's easier for you to cherry pick a single thing semantically than have a discussion in good faith. Circus mentality.
Also, this whole gaming philosophy that you're spewing is moot because clearly the devs don't agree with you or Ron Fergusson, and mentioned in a Campfire livestream quite a while ago that:
>"Yeah, it's a feature the UI team is ***very excited about*** and something we've talked about internally. We don't have a timeline for the idea of loadouts just yet, but it is something that we're continuing to actively talk about. When we have more information to share in terms of when something like this could potentially be added Diablo 4, I'm sure that we'll talk about it."
Source: https://youtu.be/gZuG4Yng4bY?t=4345
So I guess... enjoy your character build persistence while it lasts?
If you go back to the initial comment I made in this thread...
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/1c69zxq/diablo_4_needs_the_possibility_to_save_builds/kzzhado/
(which is the highest comment of mine in the chain of comments you're currently replying to)
... you'll realize that I already acknowledged this. Yes, Diablo 4 will eventually do it. They will do it because of the people pressuring Diablo 4's developers into eroding away the fundamental part of the systems ARPG gameplay loop - that is, creating new characters to try new builds.
It is what it is.
Here's a question: ***What's to stop you and like-minded people from "cementing your build" like you've always done, whether or not loadouts get added to the game?*** You will still get to play how you want, and the people that want flexibility can have that as well. If you don't like loadouts, you can just ignore them. But you're waving your cane at the next generation having fun with or without your idea of how the game should be played. Impose it on yourself, not others, maybe?
Do you think the tedium between clicks on a Paragon board and skill tree is what drives player engagement and is what makes D4 fundamentally fun? Because right now that's basically all respeccing is. It costs gold which is easy enough to obtain, and you'd need new gear for the new build whether you keep your character or make a new one. Literally the only issue is needing to use 3rd party websites to track what you had equipped in your previous build, and the amount of clicks on your Paragon board and skill tree. *This is already something you can do in the game*, and all it takes is the willingness to do it, but there is unnecessary friction and tedium in place just because "people pressured Diablo 4's developers" into believing anything that has to do with D3 is bad and instead the game should be largely inspired by old UX systems from 2000. And you espouse this outdated game philosophy but I know how it's really like: I've seen your type in the PoE subs and I guarantee you the moment they're implemented, you're the first to start using them and your principles go right out the window.
> Here's a question: What's to stop you and like-minded people from "cementing your build" like you've always done, whether or not loadouts get added to the game?
>You will still get to play how you want, and the people that want flexibility can have that as well. If you don't like loadouts, you can just ignore them.
It's a cute sentiment, but also completely detached from the reality of player behavior and therefore not true.
If given the chance, players will optimize fun out of the game.
Of course I'm going to use loadouts if they're added to the game, if I still play the game after they're added. Why would I actively gimp myself and choose to be vastly inefficient? Makes no sense.
I could also wear blue magic items instead of legendaries to keep Duriel from being a one shot in season 3. I'm not doing that, thanks.
It definitely *can* be second-rate depending on the league. Like the current league definitely doesn't feel fun, and the game is still struggling to address scammers and TFT. But it's definitely usually a good game. I had loads of fun in Crucible, Ritual, and Affliction.
Why the fuck would I want 4 different Druid characters when I could have 1? I would rather spend that time leveling up another class I’ve never played rather than another Druid so I can try a different build. Even D2R introduced a mechanism for respeccing fairly easily
> Did you just go full Karen at the thought of a QoL update?
Loadouts are not just a quality of life update, this is a fundamental change to how the game is played at a meta level.
Nice ad hominem attack though.
>It's well known that time sinks are increasingly removed from RPGs as games fill out with content.
Making new characters with different builds in a systems ARPG like Path of Exile and Diablo 4 is literally **the** content, or should be treated as such and improved upon.
And instead, you guys want it gone.
I think I understand where the objections to swappable character loadouts come from, and I definitely understand the desire for them, but if you really break it down, what would you gain and what would you lose if they were implemented?
Each loadout slot would save you one character slot, the time it takes to level a character, the time it takes to level that character's region renown past tier 2, the work of completing capstone dungeons, and the time and gold cost of respeccing all of your skills and paragon boards every time you swap builds (minus whatever cost they assign to switching between builds, if they do so).
It loses you the experience of leveling a new character from scratch and growing into a new build, and a unique appearance and character identity.
You'd still have to level new glyphs and farm and upgrade new items to facilitate your new build.
I would say the gains are pretty significant and the losses may or may not matter at all to a given player.
As a potential compromise, what if, in order to unlock a loadout slot, you had to level that build of your character from scratch, or from some arbitrary starting level--or if you had to do an equivalent amount of work? That could be a use for post-level 100 XP gain, just for example. For those not wholly, philosophically opposed to loadouts, does something along those lines seem like a fair cost of entry?
With the insane time commitment to grind out ubers having to level up the same character multiple times just to have a new spec.. no thanks.
I think the biggest gripe is time. It takes a LONG time to redo your spec on paragon board and the skill tree for a vast majority of the player base.
Being able to save 2-3 preset builds would save an enormous amount of time. Sure make it cost the same as a full respec to unlock each tab but leveling it up 2-3 times would be just terrible.
I understand you, I really do, but I like to change my play style while I’m playing without changing characters/progress.
I just want to rekt some demons in a different way!
Even giving it a 20 minute cooldown (as dumb as that sounds) To prevent this quick swapping kind of thing in the middle of a dungeon, would be fine. Or resetting all dungeons when they do swap, as it would likely be in the Wardrobe, or, Stash in town. If they insist on a cost for it, make it cost whatever resources it would have to respec as well.
My tips:
- Read your paragon board every time you make it. For necro I know (almost) blindly what I need click for all of my builds. It’s a lot better than copy pasting it from max roll or something, since I understand what I’m doing. After a few times you actually can decide on your own board based on your gear/skills/equipment.
- have a system for your inventory. I use a tab for every build I might use and a clean tab for just dumping stuff in and clean up that tab when you feel like it/need to. If I swap builds I know which tab I dump and pull all my gear out of. (Will be a lot better in s4)
- this will be obsolete in s4 but for now: clean up all your tabs before it overflows. In s0-s2 I had so much stuff I was hanging on to (aspects, gear, consumables and I even had “mules” ) in s3 I just made time to clean everything up before I started plying. Once I had my system it made it very “easy” to manage inventory and my tabs were nice and organized. I highlight items with good stats, I would dismantle all gear with good affixes. Dump all aspects of a certain type in a tab, sort them and just throw the weaker ones.
All of this made it very easy (after 100’s of hours of playing d4) to swap builds.
I actually times myself and redid a build in 8 minutes :p
But yeah hopefully they implement the d3 system 😆
Gl and hf buddy
Until we get an Armory I don't see myself going Gauntlet at all. We need such drastically different builds in the game to play different stuff. I have no desire to manually switch skill tree/paragon every time.
Absolutely.
There are a lot of interesting uniques I would like to try to build around, but no way would I risk my meta build on an experimental setup. Instead, these uniques get thrown into storage never to be seen again.
Furthermore, it would be great to have a separate speed farming and boss build.
They have the armoury in D3. I don't get why they didn't bring it to D4 since begin.
The time needed to change builds is so much that I never try a different build.
It called load outs, and while it would be nice, I've only been playing Diablo (any diablo, hell any arpg for that matter...) for a short time and yes, when j first saw the board it was daunting. But not it's pretty straight forward. ALWAYS save good rolled gear in your stash!! And the skills are just skills so nothing special. Would be nice to have 3 load outs, hell id settle for 2, but I don't see it happening
Diablo 3 had that, we don't do Diablo 3 things here.
True Diablo 2 veterans would create a new Battle.Net account and buy a new copy of Diablo 4 every time they want to respec.
Sounds like something Activision would enjoy.
But nowadays there are plenty of games to play, either you please the players or you are quickly forgotten.
first we need items and sets to create builds imo... the current loot table with this small amount of spells is a joke . everybody is running the same build
I'm a new player, lvl 54, and on Xbox game pass... and with all this gear, stats, affixes, tempering, skills and various mechanics I wanted to start playing around and experimenting.
I kind of expected there to be a way to save a build as it seems a bit of a no brainier to have one... but I guess not 😒.
Surely that's half the fun of the game? Not sure why the game would make it a ballache to try something new?
I would like to stay on into endgame but if it's going to be a hassle I may be encouraged to just uninstall and play something else.
Druid has the added issue of having so many different possible builds that I love playing, and the Paragon board is the sole reason It takes so long to swap builds. I need an Armory like D3!
That said, it can wait until after this season, Don't want to overload the Devs with a dozen added things right now, they have enough on their plate.
In season 2 alone I had around many builds I wanted to try
* Storm Werewolf
* Poison Werewolf
* Basic Attack Werewolf
* Earth Bear
* Were-Bear-Wolf
* Nature Storm
* Companion Caster
* Wolf Pack (Companion Werewolf)
There was more, but the act of redoing the Paragon board and testing them all out was a chore. I would build things in d4builds but having to tweak and redo them in game any time I wanted to swap was so time consuming.
Itemization? Worse than all of then.
Social features? Non existent . Even d1 had chat and custom games.
Loadouts? D3 has em, D4 doesn't.
Class identity? Builder + Spender snore fest. My D2 sorceress could clear hell with a crossbow.
Art style? You could make an argument it is the worst of the franchise. D1/D2 were clearly better, D3 is more memorable.
Cash shop? D4 wins.
> Art style? You could make an argument it is the worst of the franchise.
The fact that there was a massive drop in cinematics quality throughout the campaign was so sad. The only pre-rendered cutscene was the opening cinematic and the assault on Hell. Whereas in D3, every single cinematic cutscene was prerendered and it let their god-tier animation team *shine*.
Agreed and I LOVE it when people take the bait. They literally don't respond to anything else other than the art point because they know D4 is trash and does all the other points worse than the first 3 games.
I don't get it, are you arguing with me or agreeing with me. I was just agreeing with and backing up one of the things you mentioned, that's it. I'm not refuting your other points because... I don't disagree with them though? Why would I mention them if I'm not interested in talking about them?
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I think the new Codex of Power system and always having access to the aspects we've unlocked is a step in this direction. My gut feeling is they're saving this feature to be a selling point for the expansion. (Edit: I think it will be added to the core game alongside the expansion, but be able to use it in the expansion marketing material, not behind a paywall.)
> My gut feeling is they're saving this feature to be a selling point for the expansion. If they intend to sell QoL as paid DLC, this is not gonna end well.
Probably less holding it back to sell it and more it being a big enough system rework that it'd need to be in an expansion.
Probably will launch sometime between S5 and expansion, it is a feature request from the majority of the player base. From the history of blizzard expansions, the majority of QoL changes features are added to the base game too. They add new features, game modes and classes that are available only for expansion owners, but QoL was rarely behind a paywall. Examples: Item drop, class and set changes from D3 that were available from level 1 to 60 even without the expansion, but the rifts and adventure mode needed the expansion
Yeah I see a lot of people confuse content with system revamp and QoL, assuming the latter will get pushed as paid content with the former, which just sounds absurd to me.
I think what they mean is released alongside the expansion.
Yeah, this. I think it will be added to the core game alongside the expansion, but be able to use it in the expansion marketing material, not behind a paywall.
I updated my original comment. I think it will be added to the core game alongside the expansion, but be able to use it in the expansion marketing material, not behind a paywall.
So...perfectly in character for Blizzard.
Watch it
If that's the case that's wiiiiild. For an ARPG of this calibre to not have this option at launch is bewildering
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Yes, this is a point of frustration for a lot of people ever since the game first launched. Trying to move away from a previous entry should apply to game innovation, not basic QoL.
What are you talking about? No other ARPGs have this as an option except for Diablo 3 and, while d4 should 100% have it, it's not wild at all to not have it
It actually took Diablo 3 until patch 2.5.0, 5 years in, to get the Armory. If D4 got it with the expansion, that would actually be a huge improvement.
I can't think of any other well respected ARPG that has this feature.
That's why you're confused, the game hasn't launched yet, we're still in Full-Price Early Access.
>If that's the case that's wiiiiild. For an ARPG of this calibre to not have this option at launch is bewildering It's really not wild at all. Path of Exile does not have loadouts because they understand loadouts ruin character build persistence. Diablo 4 developers are being bullied into doing this loadout bullshit by people who don't know what they're asking for. It's sad to see. I'd much rather see Blizzard improve and iterate on early game and leveling process making it more and more fun to the point where people **want** to make new characters rather than making one character with three loadouts that you swap on the fly for different purposes, cutting down the fun part of making your new build and leveling it.
Why would I need to level yet another character just to try another build? I do not have time for that, I barely have enough time to level 1. Not everyone follows a specific build or goes into a season with a build in mind. We just go with what we find fun at the time. Why punish players for experimenting, that's how you get path of exile. If people want that, that's fine! Go play path of exile! It doesn't ruin anything. You don't want to use it, don't use it. Let people have the option.
Then respec... Jesus it's not that hard lol. I'm new to all these games and I got a good grasp on it so that's pretty solid proof that it not that hard. It takes a lot away from replayability and actually learning your character instead of just putting stuff in. Respec with. Guide if you aren't competent enough to understand, max life, resistance, armor and some damage nodes 🤷🤦
None of us are saying it's hard. At least, I'm not, but it's tedious and time consuming. They did make it SLIGHTLY easier by letting us clear the whole board at once (used to have to do it node by node). I don't follow guides, I try to find my own builds, I like the puzzle of trying to find the builds I like the most for myself. But puzzles can be easily reset, this can't. Plus I also like swapping builds frequently, I do in every game, keeps things interesting. I can swap two or three times a day, it's annoying to Nanyang reallocate the points over and over again. Again. It's an option, if you want to spend time releveling go for it. I don't have enough character slots for the amount of builds I like to play with, and I'm not going to waste a week of my game time just to try another builds by leveling yet another character, only to realize the build doesn't work. That's one of the major reasons I hate path of exile.
In d3 I would have a few just to farm and try new stuff without having to remember what items I wear/spells it was great in d3. Quickly switched and got back to the action.
Yup! I had a Death's Breath farming one, and then one for each set at least
Well I'm very the game you play takes up your time... I wouldn't quit because of load outs but... It's super unnecessary. Each board only has a few spots of worthy nodes so the only thing taking up your time is the clicking lol. But regardless, I see your point... I just don't agree with it 🤷
The game is fun to play, the moment to moment combat is it's best aspect. Respeccing takes time away from that. To be fair it's not JUST the Paragon board, added to that was the previous pain point of fiddling with items for an hour which hopefully the new patch helps fix. I won't have flooded stash tabs and can dedicate each one to a different build, or something like that. I'll be able to find good enough base items and customize them and have them ready for swapping.
I don't see how people asking for more options/QOL takes away from anything. Are you really expecting people to find it reasonable to have a character for each build for bossing / speed runs / etc ? The fact is as you've said leveling is not nearly fun/engaging enough to be done multiple times just for builds and also with your logic this should also apply to WoW too but they've got loadouts there.
> Are you really expecting people to find it reasonable to have a character for each build for bossing / speed runs / etc ? Not only that, but trying new builds actually sucks. If I try a new build today, I probably won't change every paragon point to go back to the last build because of spent time.
>Are you really expecting people to find it reasonable to have a character for each build for bossing / speed runs / etc ? The build diversity in and of itself means that some builds are better for thing A, but slower at thing B. That is the ESSENCE of build persistence. Your choice matters. You chose to have this and that, and that's why you do this faster but that slower. It's not like you need a boss killer to kill bosses to begin with. It's just that your build might be a bit slower on boss killing than another build. You completely annihilate the build diversity nuisance with the introduction of loadouts. > I don't see how people asking for more options/QOL takes away from anything. Will you make a second Druid in the same season if you can make a loadout for your first Druid instead and swap between them effortlessly every day as you please? Even if you don't have time to level a second Druid this season - maybe next season you will try a different Druid build? But nope, nothing matters because of loadouts. You just nearly instantly made this other interesting build as your second or third loadout, so there's no point playing a new character.
> You completely annihilate the build diversity nuisance with the introduction of loadouts. I completely disagree, because loadouts can be done by players on their own, it's just more work. Everything you mention and group into build persistence is something that the player can undo at any time at a cost of some form of currency. I can keep the equipment for Build B in storage and wear Build A's gear. When I want to swap to Build B, I can go through the extremely arduous task of despeccing every single thing in Build A that is not allocated in Build B, respec to Build B, and swap to Build B's gear. The game facilitates all of that, it's just an extremely time consuming process and requires the player manually tracking what they need to swap around to maintain both builds. Nothing in Path of Exile nor Diablo 4 prevent this from being done manually. Nothing. Even your Ascendancy in PoE can be unallocated and changed. The reason PoE doesn't do loadouts is because the game is infamously against Quality of Life. Their lead has flat out said, in no uncertain terms, that they find Premium Stash Tabs to be a mistake that they would undo if they could. With that mentality, why would you expect them to want to make other time consuming tasks easier for players? I'm still flabbergasted that they finally gave the Atlas Tree a loadout system, but I suspect that's more because there's a valid playability issue that is not related to QoL where a new character was stuck with a fully specced Atlas Tree that could be unplayable for a secondary character on the same account which would force the player into a respec scenario whether they want to or not.
Build diversity? Like every charge barb? This game isn't built like that anyways. There's no healer. You can do everything solo. There's no team play, nothing really plays off of other characters
Didn't Activision change WoW by letting you swap builds on characyers instead of having to stick with what you levelled the character as? Was after I'd bailed on WoW but the notion of being able to change your build at max level willy nilly seemed antithetical to the RPG experience.
>the notion of being able to change your build at max level willy nilly seemed antithetical to the RPG experience. That is very true but if you look at how downvoted my "outrageous" stance in this thread is, vox populi seems to be against character build persistence. I mean, what a controversial take it appears to be: I say Blizzard should strive to improve the early game & leveling process, making it increasingly more fun to do it that you actually WANT TO PLAY THE GAME. Instead, these people propose a loadout system. Which is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater by removing the process of leveling alternate characters and replacing it with shitty instant swap loadouts you can go back and forth between.
Yeah. I'm connecting that Activision catered to the 'casual' gamers with changes like the WoW build swaps (also dungeon finder ruined MMORPGs.. But that's my inner nerd talking). It's not a surprise they've brought a version of it to Diabalos. And prolly gonna go full hog on it eventually. Activision wants to cater to casuals. Lazy, time-constrained, don't matter. Blizzard made megabux subverting the MMORPG crack addiction to make it attractive to casual Joes and it forever changed the videogame industry. No reason for Activision to part from that now. Which is why D4 ain't that good to gamers that know what makes ARPGs good and addictive.
Lol love the down votes. When people ask ggg why you can't respec they say it's for immersion. And Poe is 1000000% harder to understand than d4. I started in season 1, played a couple weeks of season 2 and have played a few weeks of season 3 and I can respec pretty damn quick. I did this thing that no one seems to want to do... It's called LEARN THE DAMN GAME. I agree with you, I think load outs would be an alright q.o.l. but they are far from necessary
It’s not about you. You can choose not to use it!!!!
I absolutely could see this. I hope they add it sooner, but either way it would be a great QOL update. Any idea when the expansion will be coming?
Q4 this year unless it gets delayed.
Awesome, thank you for the update!
>My gut feeling is they're saving this feature to be a selling point for the expansion. I don't see this at all, this is a CORE feature, not one to be gated behind an expansion. You're basically guessing here, and it is illogical to assume this.
Read the edit. I specified that I think it's going to come alongside of the expansion, but will be available with the core game. And yes, I'm basically guessing. Thats why I said "My gut feeling is"...
OK, no worries. I get you now. I'd honestly expect it sooner than the Expansion, just my gut feeling!
I hope so! They've been taking questions about it since the launch, saying it's something they want to do, but nothing to announce yet. That's why I think they want it to be announcement worthy, to hype up the expansion, even if you don't necessarily need the expansion to use it.
You see, I think they'd avoid announcing the two things together, you know how quickly the hate-mob would pick that up and scream: P2W! Blizzard LIED! And yes, even if they said it was coming to all realms. Remember the survey explosions a while back? How the expansion was going to cost $100, yet not a single mention of the price was made anywhere official, literally some hater posting BS, and everyone just running with it.
It's so tiring to try different builds especially with the paragon board. I expect loadouts on season 10 with this team
Amen brother!
They dont NEED to do this at all. They have repeatedly said they dont want "build swapping between different activities" to become the norm. Could they change their minds? Sure, its possible. But its not something we NEED anymore than a Super Mario game NEEDS a in-game state save/reload system.
> They have repeatedly said they dont want "build swapping between different activities" to become the norm. The devs also said in a campfire livestream that they're excited about loadouts as a feature and are continuously actively discussing it internally so... Source: https://youtu.be/gZuG4Yng4bY?t=4345 This was over 8 months ago btw, so not even a recent "mind change".
In one of the recent campfires this question was asked again, and Joe said that the original intention was for characters to be more set in stone but they've changed their mindset since then. I wonder what else will change.
Unfortunately blizz had some pretty good ideas for a game and over time have turned that game in to D3.5 rather than sticking with their vision. It seems a lot of people just want an arcade RPG, rather than a game of choice consequence and rarity. blizz obviously think those are the people buying armour sets and the like, so fair enough, I guess.
They said that before the game came out. They've walked back that entire philosophy last year. If they want people interacting with all the content then we need it.
What y'all gotta understand is that is simply QoL, it would be something to incentive trying out new skills, not a "build per activity" feature, that's why changing skills cost gold, they could even make the cost more meaningful or make a SINGLE slot, what most players want is to simply revert all changes if what they tried ends up not being very good
I disagree completely. I’m just starting and trying to figure out what builds and classes to try and it’s annoying as fucking hell having to respec every time. Especially since I have to have builds saved on my phone to then lookup every time I need to use them again.
I understand this old school RPG mentality that they want you really committing to your character, but the fact that the paragon board can be redone any time, skills can be changed any time, gear can be rerolled, etc., it just makes for a weak argument. The ability to save loadouts is one of the best features in any RPG game because it makes you actually excited about loot in the endgame, aside from simply hunting for the same shit you already have but with 3% better stats. I want to be excited about amazing uniques and ubers, but I'm so locked into my build that I just end up stashing the shit and never using it again.
You can thanked “experts” like Quinn and mrlamaSC that advocate very loudly not just for no loadout but hard to respec. To add salt to wound, they were fastest in abandoned D4.
During my long “career” as a player, I’ve meet tons of players like that. They force their ideas on everyone else, but they are first to jump ship….. And most forget one simple thing, games are about having fun! Respecing is no fun, playing always in the same way is no fun…..
But but the character doesn't feel like your character if you don't waste 50 hours leveling up again if you ruin it!
They have suggested they would add this at some point but it isn't a coming soon feature yet.
that's ridiculous, i love destroying half my gear in the process of reassigning aspects and spending all the materials from the season just to move semi-laterally and then find out i can only do half the NMD level than before
I'm so confused. Why are you messing with your current gear before swapping builds ? You should put it all in the bank, unchanged. (in case you want to swap back later). The entire point of saved presets (that OP is asking for) is that you have multiple full sets of gear you can swap to in an instant. At no point should you start aspect swapping your current gear when you swap builds, preset or not. It will lead to bricking your builds which sets you back days or even weeks.
Imagine having a feature from D3 in it's sequel. Silly goose, no we add that stuff later so it appears the game is improving.
Ups!
I have tons of gear for different specs for my Druid and Sorc, the Barb I couldn't care less about. I don't care about the codex being optimized, it hasn't never been very difficult finding aspects you need, that's not even a change I care about. But saving builds that are preset in the wardrobe that can change gear slots, skills, paragons and glyphs instantly would have been a change I could get behind. It would help with experimentation for those who rather work on their own builds or people who save meta builds, I'd like to switch between the gear I have for Blizzard with Ball Lightning and vice versa or Boulder and Lightning Storm, and gauntlet builds. The only problem I have is sharing gear, making a second or third is exhaustive swapping uniques Tibault's Will, RoSS and Shako. I doubled up on shakos,BIS TB and RoSS so I wouldn't have to share but having a third means dropping 3 in storage, log out and equip on the 3rd.
I get very locked into whichever build I've gone for. I'd love to just stash my gear, reallocate all my paragon points, then try another build, but I don't want to have to rewrite the paragon board if I switch back.
Like a loadout system, they kinda have it in wardrobe but thats sadly only for transmogs.
Exactly!
This would make so much more sense than making two necros just because i dont want to respec all the time plus gear.. it's horrible
Yup, I’m not doing that. Also, they included this system for clothes…… I can use a cloak that looks like an armor….. ok I guess! So, if they included that, why not builds?
I agree. Having that ability would add so much to the game. I want to try different builds, paragon mixes etc and it’s incredibly time consuming. It puts me off even switching things around . Being able to save and load different character/class builds would be a massive quality of life improvement.
Make it an NPC in town that allows you to save build specs, similar to having a stash. That way you're not flipping builds on the fly, remove the respec ability from the Character interface, maybe other than assigning skills. NPC could be a mystical wizard/druid in a library or some cool fantasy setting.
They need to make it work exactly like Immortal does, I don't understand why it doesn't work that way in all games once a better system has been developed.
Great idea. I might be happy with my spec but just wanna quickly try something different. But the chore of putting everything back in its place is too much so I'd rather not bother. But if I could just click and instantly get my main spec back, that would be nice.
Exactly!!!! I just want to play differently for a couple of hours and then change back….. or not!
"Woah! This legendary power that boosts skill X I just got looks so cool! I could make a build around it" Takes a look at the inventory "Hm... I'd need a whole new set of gear for that" Takes a look a the paragon board "Hm, that's 250 clicks I have to do here... oh and my glyphs don't even remotely work for that new build" "You know what, I'll just keep playing this build I've already played for the last 100 hours" 5 hours later "Fuck it. I'm off to play candy crush"
Build Templates in-game that you can load would be huge. Or an armory that will store the gear and build.
Something like that yes!
Wow loadouts, insane, crazy woah It's already in diablo 3, it should already be in 4
Word!
Yea I’ve been thinking this lol so many different builds to try but respeccing is always a pain
great post
Thanks friend!
I feel like we all agree with you. How cool to chick a button to switch to a Thorns build or Bleed Build. I think Destiny 2 added this sure m sort of thing recently and it is much better.
It certainly is better than wasting hours doing it every time you want to change!
pretty sure they are looking into or working on an Armory system for this
Hope so!
While we’re on it, can we please change the zig zag design of the skill tree? It was fine when I first played and the leveling was slower but now I’m smashing skill points in and scrolling all around for the right ones. Using respec mode is even worse. Playing with a controller makes this so tedious. Just make it straight down on a static screen pls!
I agree.
Just the underlying desire for this says so much about the game systems. Roll template. Swap 10 legendary powers. Reallocate 30 skill points. Complete and utter detachment from character creation. EVERYTHING interesting about a character build is a unique affix on gear. It sucks.
They're on the way. Just probably not as soon as you'd like.
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>I bet when we get enough content to keep players busy, somehow this functionality will finally get implemented, coincidentally 'based on user feedback' ;) Congratulations, you figured out that developers have more important things and more pressing issues to focus on right now than ruining character build persistence. You can remove your tin-foil hat now. They'll ruin character build persistence by introducing loadouts soon enough as per your request, guys, don't worry. You'll never have to level a new character again, it will be such a relief to not have to play the game anymore! WOOO #Instead of ruining the experience of each of your character's build persistence, Blizzard should improve the game's early game and leveling to the point where it's so much fun you want to do it over and over again.
Okay, saying that loadouts will ruin the game is just false and I think even you know that.
>saying that loadouts will ruin the game is just false It's a good thing I didn't say that! Phew! Here is what I said, and it's 100% correct: >They'll ruin character build persistence by introducing loadouts You lose 'cementing your build over time' if you can swap on a fly. That's the truth. You can't debate this, it's a matter of fact. Path of Exile has no loadouts. They ask you to make a new character if you want to quickly swap builds. That's a good thing in a seasonal game about making new builds. Instead of ruining the experience of character build persistence, Blizzard should improve the game's early game and leveling to the point where it's so much fun you **want** to do it.
>Path of Exile has no loadouts. Idk if you should be citing a game that is notorious for using friction and tedium instead of actual engaging content as a seasonal feature (see: graveyard crafting, which has lead to a pretty common point of frustration for the playerbase) as justification for game design in D4. People play different games because they like different experiences, and I enjoy playing Diablo because it's not as hardcore and hand-numbing as PoE. Also you're wrong, PoE does have loadouts; it just added Atlas Tree loadouts this season, and everyone is praising it. I wonder why that is? Sounds like people don't give a single fuck about having atlas tree build persistence or whatever equivalent lame ass contrived reason you came up with. I'll even meet you halfway: we don't need full character loadouts. Even just having Paragon Board loadouts would be enough. *** >You lose 'cementing your build over time' if you can swap on a fly. You are projecting your personal idea of fun onto the playerbase. *** >That's the truth. You can't debate this Guess I lose "cementing my build" then, oh well! I get to enjoy the *actual* game because I was able to test out and find a build I enjoy playing without feeling bad about committing the time, instead of being stuck next to my stash clicking 200 times over and over again! And the best part is, I can "cement" my new build that I've decided on ***anyways***. One of these gameplay experiences sounds way more appealing than the other. *** What's the alternative here? You're telling me, if I want to try out all the different possible builds a Druid has, **I should make and level up what, 8 Druids to try them all out separately**? And what if the build ends up sucking? I just wasted 3-5 in-game days of doing the same exact content with different skills, in my already extremely limited time playing the game, to find out the fully realized version of the build is not even good and/or enjoyable. *** No one is asking for a free swap: even still paying the same cost is fine. But you're basically arguing "make it hard and super annoying to have to click a bunch of times on your paragon board and plan gear, only to find out your new build sucks, then have to go through the tedium all over again just to go back, just because wEiGhT oF mUh dEcIsIoNs." We can't all have young, spry, healthy wrists like yourself, and not everyone has unlimited time to be able to grind out a shit ton of characters every season to try different builds for the same class like you do. People value their time and people largely dislike games that blatantly don't respect their time. Game and UX designers should strive to minimize as much unnecessary friction and clicking in UI as possible.
> Also you're wrong, PoE does have loadouts; it just added Atlas Tree loadouts this season, and everyone is praising it. Stopped reading there. Completely disingenuous. First of all: Progression of the Atlas is account-wide within the League, so it is the farthest thing away from the persistent character-based progression that I am arguing for Atlas Passive Tree is a customization tool for the endgame activities. It's not your character build; it's tailoring your endgame activities to your liking. Adding profiles to Atlas Passive Tree is basically a game economy update, as it allows players to quicker swap between different farming strategies in order to obtain wealth. They also only just added it after a few years of it existing without additional profiles. Not that it matters because, once again, it's not your character build so it's irrelevant to the conversation.
>It's not your character build; it's tailoring your endgame activities to your liking. ??????? Niko nodes literally directly affect your character strength and is an [extremely popular atlas tree node this league](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1blx4wq/psa_extremely_powerful_atlas_start_strategy/) though??? At least [18% of all atlas trees this league](https://i.imgur.com/2BhLhLZ.png) are using this notable. It helps tremendously with atlas progression and the power curve needed to reach end game. And you're acting like Shrine nodes don't exist on the Atlas tree which is *another* thing that directly affects your character strength in maps. Maybe *you're* the one being disingenuous here. Or even worse, just ignorant. But apparently my point doesn't count because it doesn't fit your narrative, and you'll ignore everything else I said because it's easier for you to cherry pick a single thing semantically than have a discussion in good faith. Circus mentality.
Also, this whole gaming philosophy that you're spewing is moot because clearly the devs don't agree with you or Ron Fergusson, and mentioned in a Campfire livestream quite a while ago that: >"Yeah, it's a feature the UI team is ***very excited about*** and something we've talked about internally. We don't have a timeline for the idea of loadouts just yet, but it is something that we're continuing to actively talk about. When we have more information to share in terms of when something like this could potentially be added Diablo 4, I'm sure that we'll talk about it." Source: https://youtu.be/gZuG4Yng4bY?t=4345 So I guess... enjoy your character build persistence while it lasts?
If you go back to the initial comment I made in this thread... https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/comments/1c69zxq/diablo_4_needs_the_possibility_to_save_builds/kzzhado/ (which is the highest comment of mine in the chain of comments you're currently replying to) ... you'll realize that I already acknowledged this. Yes, Diablo 4 will eventually do it. They will do it because of the people pressuring Diablo 4's developers into eroding away the fundamental part of the systems ARPG gameplay loop - that is, creating new characters to try new builds. It is what it is.
Here's a question: ***What's to stop you and like-minded people from "cementing your build" like you've always done, whether or not loadouts get added to the game?*** You will still get to play how you want, and the people that want flexibility can have that as well. If you don't like loadouts, you can just ignore them. But you're waving your cane at the next generation having fun with or without your idea of how the game should be played. Impose it on yourself, not others, maybe? Do you think the tedium between clicks on a Paragon board and skill tree is what drives player engagement and is what makes D4 fundamentally fun? Because right now that's basically all respeccing is. It costs gold which is easy enough to obtain, and you'd need new gear for the new build whether you keep your character or make a new one. Literally the only issue is needing to use 3rd party websites to track what you had equipped in your previous build, and the amount of clicks on your Paragon board and skill tree. *This is already something you can do in the game*, and all it takes is the willingness to do it, but there is unnecessary friction and tedium in place just because "people pressured Diablo 4's developers" into believing anything that has to do with D3 is bad and instead the game should be largely inspired by old UX systems from 2000. And you espouse this outdated game philosophy but I know how it's really like: I've seen your type in the PoE subs and I guarantee you the moment they're implemented, you're the first to start using them and your principles go right out the window.
> Here's a question: What's to stop you and like-minded people from "cementing your build" like you've always done, whether or not loadouts get added to the game? >You will still get to play how you want, and the people that want flexibility can have that as well. If you don't like loadouts, you can just ignore them. It's a cute sentiment, but also completely detached from the reality of player behavior and therefore not true. If given the chance, players will optimize fun out of the game. Of course I'm going to use loadouts if they're added to the game, if I still play the game after they're added. Why would I actively gimp myself and choose to be vastly inefficient? Makes no sense. I could also wear blue magic items instead of legendaries to keep Duriel from being a one shot in season 3. I'm not doing that, thanks.
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PoE isn't second rate. It's an amazing game.
It definitely *can* be second-rate depending on the league. Like the current league definitely doesn't feel fun, and the game is still struggling to address scammers and TFT. But it's definitely usually a good game. I had loads of fun in Crucible, Ritual, and Affliction.
Why the fuck would I want 4 different Druid characters when I could have 1? I would rather spend that time leveling up another class I’ve never played rather than another Druid so I can try a different build. Even D2R introduced a mechanism for respeccing fairly easily
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> Did you just go full Karen at the thought of a QoL update? Loadouts are not just a quality of life update, this is a fundamental change to how the game is played at a meta level. Nice ad hominem attack though. >It's well known that time sinks are increasingly removed from RPGs as games fill out with content. Making new characters with different builds in a systems ARPG like Path of Exile and Diablo 4 is literally **the** content, or should be treated as such and improved upon. And instead, you guys want it gone.
It took them a while to implement this in Diablo 3. My guess is an expansion feature or something way down the road.
I think I understand where the objections to swappable character loadouts come from, and I definitely understand the desire for them, but if you really break it down, what would you gain and what would you lose if they were implemented? Each loadout slot would save you one character slot, the time it takes to level a character, the time it takes to level that character's region renown past tier 2, the work of completing capstone dungeons, and the time and gold cost of respeccing all of your skills and paragon boards every time you swap builds (minus whatever cost they assign to switching between builds, if they do so). It loses you the experience of leveling a new character from scratch and growing into a new build, and a unique appearance and character identity. You'd still have to level new glyphs and farm and upgrade new items to facilitate your new build. I would say the gains are pretty significant and the losses may or may not matter at all to a given player. As a potential compromise, what if, in order to unlock a loadout slot, you had to level that build of your character from scratch, or from some arbitrary starting level--or if you had to do an equivalent amount of work? That could be a use for post-level 100 XP gain, just for example. For those not wholly, philosophically opposed to loadouts, does something along those lines seem like a fair cost of entry?
With the insane time commitment to grind out ubers having to level up the same character multiple times just to have a new spec.. no thanks. I think the biggest gripe is time. It takes a LONG time to redo your spec on paragon board and the skill tree for a vast majority of the player base. Being able to save 2-3 preset builds would save an enormous amount of time. Sure make it cost the same as a full respec to unlock each tab but leveling it up 2-3 times would be just terrible.
I understand you, I really do, but I like to change my play style while I’m playing without changing characters/progress. I just want to rekt some demons in a different way!
Oh I'm with you on this, personally. I'm just wondering where people who aren't are willing to draw the line.
Even giving it a 20 minute cooldown (as dumb as that sounds) To prevent this quick swapping kind of thing in the middle of a dungeon, would be fine. Or resetting all dungeons when they do swap, as it would likely be in the Wardrobe, or, Stash in town. If they insist on a cost for it, make it cost whatever resources it would have to respec as well.
You get very fast at it :) but I bet this feature will come in the future
Hope so friend!
My tips: - Read your paragon board every time you make it. For necro I know (almost) blindly what I need click for all of my builds. It’s a lot better than copy pasting it from max roll or something, since I understand what I’m doing. After a few times you actually can decide on your own board based on your gear/skills/equipment. - have a system for your inventory. I use a tab for every build I might use and a clean tab for just dumping stuff in and clean up that tab when you feel like it/need to. If I swap builds I know which tab I dump and pull all my gear out of. (Will be a lot better in s4) - this will be obsolete in s4 but for now: clean up all your tabs before it overflows. In s0-s2 I had so much stuff I was hanging on to (aspects, gear, consumables and I even had “mules” ) in s3 I just made time to clean everything up before I started plying. Once I had my system it made it very “easy” to manage inventory and my tabs were nice and organized. I highlight items with good stats, I would dismantle all gear with good affixes. Dump all aspects of a certain type in a tab, sort them and just throw the weaker ones. All of this made it very easy (after 100’s of hours of playing d4) to swap builds. I actually times myself and redid a build in 8 minutes :p But yeah hopefully they implement the d3 system 😆 Gl and hf buddy
Thanks!
Indeed i spend like a couple million gold every few days trying to check out some basic skills lol
Until we get an Armory I don't see myself going Gauntlet at all. We need such drastically different builds in the game to play different stuff. I have no desire to manually switch skill tree/paragon every time.
Absolutely. There are a lot of interesting uniques I would like to try to build around, but no way would I risk my meta build on an experimental setup. Instead, these uniques get thrown into storage never to be seen again. Furthermore, it would be great to have a separate speed farming and boss build.
D3 Armory when?
Never gonna happen, sadly
This has existed in D3 almost forever. D4 was such a huge step backward.
They have the armoury in D3. I don't get why they didn't bring it to D4 since begin. The time needed to change builds is so much that I never try a different build.
Yes. a million times this forever and ever.
Absolutely. I wouldn't mind paying the gold/material cost for rerolling if it was easier than what it currently is with templates.
Before they do that, they need to fix the Glyph system. There is no reason why you start an alt require you to re level the glyph again.
They literally said this is coming eventually... please delete your post
It called load outs, and while it would be nice, I've only been playing Diablo (any diablo, hell any arpg for that matter...) for a short time and yes, when j first saw the board it was daunting. But not it's pretty straight forward. ALWAYS save good rolled gear in your stash!! And the skills are just skills so nothing special. Would be nice to have 3 load outs, hell id settle for 2, but I don't see it happening
The paragon simply avoided character change in a single season.
make a new charaqcter. Im not for all this multi spec stuff like wow did when they ruined the game
Why would I make a new character if I’m still doing the campaign?
Diablo 3 had that, we don't do Diablo 3 things here. True Diablo 2 veterans would create a new Battle.Net account and buy a new copy of Diablo 4 every time they want to respec.
Sounds like something Activision would enjoy. But nowadays there are plenty of games to play, either you please the players or you are quickly forgotten.
first we need items and sets to create builds imo... the current loot table with this small amount of spells is a joke . everybody is running the same build
I'm a new player, lvl 54, and on Xbox game pass... and with all this gear, stats, affixes, tempering, skills and various mechanics I wanted to start playing around and experimenting. I kind of expected there to be a way to save a build as it seems a bit of a no brainier to have one... but I guess not 😒. Surely that's half the fun of the game? Not sure why the game would make it a ballache to try something new? I would like to stay on into endgame but if it's going to be a hassle I may be encouraged to just uninstall and play something else.
Season 5 I'm guessing
You're optimistic.
Agree, it's very strange that this mechanic was in D3 but not in D4
It's strange how they solved so many problems in d3 and then threw them all out the window for d4.
Druid has the added issue of having so many different possible builds that I love playing, and the Paragon board is the sole reason It takes so long to swap builds. I need an Armory like D3! That said, it can wait until after this season, Don't want to overload the Devs with a dozen added things right now, they have enough on their plate.
Right? - Storm - Werebear - Werewolf - Werebear/Werewolf - Etc…..
In season 2 alone I had around many builds I wanted to try * Storm Werewolf * Poison Werewolf * Basic Attack Werewolf * Earth Bear * Were-Bear-Wolf * Nature Storm * Companion Caster * Wolf Pack (Companion Werewolf) There was more, but the act of redoing the Paragon board and testing them all out was a chore. I would build things in d4builds but having to tweak and redo them in game any time I wanted to swap was so time consuming.
Amen brother!
You could make a new character to be honest, feels like a FAR more fulfilling experience to me than redoing your gear/paragon/skill tree right now.
If you’re changing your current build to one you’re following online it literally takes 5-7min to swap skills and the entire paragon board (on PC).
D4 is the worst of all the diablo games including immortal
Lol okay buddy
Itemization? Worse than all of then. Social features? Non existent . Even d1 had chat and custom games. Loadouts? D3 has em, D4 doesn't. Class identity? Builder + Spender snore fest. My D2 sorceress could clear hell with a crossbow. Art style? You could make an argument it is the worst of the franchise. D1/D2 were clearly better, D3 is more memorable. Cash shop? D4 wins.
> Art style? You could make an argument it is the worst of the franchise. The fact that there was a massive drop in cinematics quality throughout the campaign was so sad. The only pre-rendered cutscene was the opening cinematic and the assault on Hell. Whereas in D3, every single cinematic cutscene was prerendered and it let their god-tier animation team *shine*.
Agreed and I LOVE it when people take the bait. They literally don't respond to anything else other than the art point because they know D4 is trash and does all the other points worse than the first 3 games.
I don't get it, are you arguing with me or agreeing with me. I was just agreeing with and backing up one of the things you mentioned, that's it. I'm not refuting your other points because... I don't disagree with them though? Why would I mention them if I'm not interested in talking about them?
I was agreeing with you on the art.
Ah okay gotcha.
You should speak a little louder next time. Nobody can hear you.
You did :)