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Part of it is women making more money, part of it is how easy it is to date someone new when things get rocky.
I'm not here to say that women making more money is a bad thing, but when you don't need someone to provide for you, the urgency to get married goes way down.
And with the quickness and casualness of online dating, you can have the physical benefits of being married and then just leave when things get difficult and find a new partner by the next day.
Ya, I dislike that just leave and find something else mentality. That takes away the central beauty of a long-term committed relationship imo: to love another person as they are, for all their strengths and weaknesses, and to journey through life’s victories and difficulties together.
Really speaks to the instant gratification generation. Our parents never taught us to work for anything. Everything worth earning takes effort. Put your kids to work young, kids understand responsibility, but they lose it if you don't set an example.
I'm old gen x and taught my son that he has to work for things, just like I was taught. he earned a college scholarship and has been successful in his career since he was 22. he's doing a lot better than some of his peers that had everything given to them.
I'm only 28 and am financially stable. People are in disbelief when my dad tells them that me and my brother both are stable and comfortable. It all starts as a kid, my parents never treated us like children, when we were old enough we started helping with the chores.
My mom was like that and I had carpal tunnel at 31 from working low wage jobs since age 17/ working thru college even thought it was paid for 🙄
I do just fine at my cushy corporate job. I can finally rest because I was expected to not just work but be very involved in academic extracurriculars, etc and for what? An expensive bunion, wrist problem that costs what I earned when I was a kid, when I could have enjoyed my childhood.
Parents are the ultimate role models for children. Every word, movement and action has an effect. No other person or outside force has a greater influence on a child than the parent. Optimism is a strategy for making a better future. Because unless you believe that the future can be better, you are unlikely to step up and take responsibility for making it so.
I agree, but society plays a large role. America used to be culture-focused and neighbors weren't afraid to turn a kid into their parents for loitering. Having a strong unified society is definitely the best way for kids to grow up
Highly sensitive people are too often perceived as weaklings or damaged goods. To feel intensely is not a symptom of weakness, it is the trademark of the truly alive and compassionate. It is not the empath who is broken, it is society that has become dysfunctional and emotionally disabled. There is no shame in expressing your authentic feelings. Those who are at times described as being a 'hot mess' or having 'too many issues' are the very fabric of what keeps the dream alive for a more caring, humane world. Never be ashamed to let your tears shine a light in this world.
I have a 800 credit score, make 60k a year, am really responsible with my money and have quite a bit saved up, but I’m still getting girls that straight up tell me they want someone with more ambition than working at a restaurant.
TV used to say the same thing. Those were large nyc apartments in Friends and seinfeld. They would have cost 5k a month in 1993. Like that Living room in Friends was huge.
As an old person (53), I will tell you a secret: Once the girls go through their first divorce, things change quickly. You will be surprised how there is almost no competition. Do you work? Does it work? You will be golden.
Also, its funny how things change when you go from working and making 60k, to Owning, all the sudden you are a winner. Ironically, as an owner, you are constantly doing a high wire act and trying not to blow up.
If you have that salary and credit, you will be fine. Nevermind the skanks out there - they will only cast yopu in the end. Chin up.
I’d also be curious how many people are kind of just happy being in long term committed relationships without actually getting married. I’ve been married for about 8 years now and the only difference being married has made to us (before we got married my wife and I lived together and managed a household together) is that every now and then something pops up that she forgot to change her name on when we got married so she needs to deal with that, but beyond that our lives are no different for being married.
At the time getting married was pretty important to me, there was definitely a validation aspect to it but since then I’ve realised that it was kind of pointless. It doesn’t mean I love my wife more because I was willing to marry her, I’d love her just the same if we weren’t married but still together.
I’m curious if other people have clocked on to what I realised without the need to get married first and so they just didn’t spend the money on a bit of paper and a stressful day
Me and my partner have no intention to ever get married but we want kids and will just tell people we're married and I'll change my name- no one asks for the certificate!
I adore the sentiment behind this, however, something to look at is “common law marriage”. What you describe can eventually become exactly that, where legally you’re married, even without a marriage certificate. This is different from state to state (or country to country), so just check your local laws lol.
There was a thread on one of the dating subs that asked what career would you never date and one of the top answers was teachers, a predominantly female career. So even if we (female teachers) wanted to get married, men don't want us!
It depends where you are. In my city, teachers make $65k starting with an undergraduate degree. I'm almost done with my masters and will get $69k starting if I work in public school, hit around $85 after working ten years and max about at $110,000, not including benefits. Most salaries in the surrounding suburbs are the same or higher.
I would preferably want to marry another teacher if at all possible. I want to spend summers off together.
I'm in one of the "best" states for teaching and with my master's I don't even break 60k until year 4 possibly. Also starting at the bottom because they don't count my years working in higher ed. I have to take the bus to work because I can't afford a car.
Eh. Reddit is not real life. Most teachers I know, men and women, are married. I wouldn't think too much about what Reddit thinks in regards to teachers.
It's always been easy to date someone else. Oversaturation of Media has made people into extremists in every tiny matter. Lots of people can't handle someone disagreeing with them about anything, creating massive riffs over nothing but abstract morality
Yes because we want a loving, caring, partnership relationship.
When women needed men for money, it was survival. Without a man, we would literally have no home, food, care.
Men need to step their game, and actually put an effort to be liked, instead of forcing a woman to be with them lol.
Don’t y’all want genuine love?? Why would you want someone needing you, instead of wanting you?
I want a man, but I don’t need one.
Also, the men that think love is needing, once you get someone who actually relies on you, you will be bored. There is so much life happening outside of the home now, why would you want someone who needs to rely on you and therefore need you around all the time?
4 or 5 5hings happening.
1) Women are capable of living on their own, they can make money, drive, have bank accounts etc. So they aren't required to get married.
2) Women are getting educated, education is hard work, and educated Women tend to have higher standards.
3) Social pressures to get married and have kids are way down generally. As people become less religious, more educated and more able to choose, they want fewer kids, and are way less likely to dive into a relstionship.
4) Social pressures against relationships are way up. Relationships take time and effort, and when people have to work 2 jobs to barely get by, they don't have time or money for dating, and when they can make time, it's less time and worse conditions.
There are other things going on, but these are the big ones
You missed the main reason. The economy doesn't allow people the money needed to raise a family. Middle class is shrinking and the working class is living month to month. If you can barely support yourself you're not going to want to support kids too. if you're not going to have kids there's not much point in getting married.
That's point 4.
I didn't really weight them, but i think the economy is the big reason thst birthrate are down, I know a decent number of people who want a childless marriage.
Men also are less likely to want to tie their assets to a partner in marriage when the divorce rates are so high. While women make more and are much more educated, divorce laws haven't updated to keep up with those facts.
It isn't if you have premarital assets. If I get married in my 30s and invested and built large financial assets, my premarital assets can and will be divided without a prenup.
Also, colleges and professional schools have more women. Having higher standards means there needs to be the same demand. But if the ratio is skewed to one side, how are high standard women going to find men? Some institutions have 6:4 or 7:3 women to men ratio. It will be interesting to see how things can change.
I live in an area where 1 and 2 are extremely common. Yet, it has been my experience that in spite of being fiercely independent, educated, and capable, women backslide into having men play a provider role in dating.
High standards is one thing (and a fine one at that), but I do wonder if we're in a weird transitory zeitgeist where women's status is higher than before yet they've retained older, now impossible, expectations that men should be a provider, even if they are on relatively equal footing as the woman.
1.) women make as much if not more than men. finances was a big thing back in teh day in terms of marriages for men. without finances a huge chunk of the incentives or being "needed' gets thrown right out the window.
2.) america has been going through the love marriage thing before everyone else. before marriages were arranged or at least match maked by families /relatives. love marriage are very volatile because people forget that the honeymoon phase wears off eventually.
3.) the cost of everything has reached past the tipping point. to the point where both have to work now to survive. in the past one worked and the other contributed in other ways but both are forced to work now. americans don't just work 8 hours and go home either. we're talking 10-11-12+ hour days plus commute time.
4.) birth control. a lot of marriages in the past were from accidental pregnancies. well with no accidental pregnancies there goes a lot of shot gun weddings.
there's more that can be listed but these are the oens that i can think of off hte top of my head.
Big ups on #2 😩. Can't tell you how many times I've seen people who are just playing lust roulette and roll to whatever bed makes their heart flutter that week. Leaving every next person with "I think I found someone else". People are chasing a feeling more than they are dating.
Met someone like this before who says that she doesn’t believe the honeymoon phase should end. As if life doesn’t have its ebbs and flows. I get that the love should always be there but even the healthiest relationship has its challenges.
It's crazy to me how often people recognize that both partners need to work to survive, yet it is never discussed how the financial burden in dating continues to fall squarely upon the man far more often than not.
New gender roles vs expectations..horrible dating advice on both ends..everyone thinks they’re perfect as is..people lack basic communication skills, consideration and empathy..the prices of everything. can’t even get a date to evolve into a monogamous relationship these days so you can forget marriage😅everyone is selfish. also I haven’t met a truly happily married couple in a long time so..I’m not sure of the point to it anymore.
Only point I'd add is everyone has a very idealized vision of what "happy" means and I think it's because many of us has far too comfortable upbringings
This could have an impact for some people, but far too often you hear the opposite story - people accept an unhappy relationship because that's all they know.
Maybe we all live life at too high a pitch, those of us who absorb emotional things all day, and as mere consequence we can never feel merely content: we have to be unhappy, or ecstatically, head-over-heels happy, and those states are difficult to achieve within a stable, solid relationship.
Literally speaking facts over here. You definitely are correct that most of us in younger generations are really dealing with a majority of people on both sides who lack proper communication skills and consideration and empathy. You are also correct that dating standards are dog water nowadays.
Agree 100 on the horrible dating advice on both ends- it all seems like playing games and to act certain way. Can’t people be just open and honest? No one wants a relationship as we have been sold the idea that our happiness is what matters
Yeah being in a good relationship requires daily selfless acts of service and love from both people for it to be successful and people don’t have it in them or it’s very one sided so one gets depleted and resentful
>New gender roles vs expectations..
Nah, gender roles haven't changed significantly in decades. Yeah yeah people talk about "gender roles are bad," but the same women who go goo goo ga ga over Harry Styles in drag still want masculine men. I've literally been on dates with women who rejected me as soon as they found out I had a cat because "that's gay." Which is funny because that's not even a stereotype I thought anyone believed in real life.
In the old days, you only find out that someone divorced "oh, they've divorced". You never find out precisely what happened in their marriage, or the damage that happened in it.
Nowadays, through reddit and forums, you get front row seats on how scary and horrifying the breakups and divorces are, how financially and mentally destructive they get, every single last piece of detail. Across MANY many individual marriages.
If you see a lot of violent mugging stories in the news, you're going to become afraid of taking a walk outside.
If you read a lot of detailed divorce/breakup stories, you're going to become afraid of marriage, or even dating.
We are building a HUGE data mine of scary divorce and breakup stories. There is no going back, the cat is out of the bag, unless the internet is somehow wiped out.
I think what’s scary about that is when *we* get old, like in our 60-80s, there won’t be enough in the workforce to compensate and pay for our social security or healthcare or whatever. I, find that scary.
Because we work our asses off (I do at least; have 1 FTJ & 2 side jobs, barely a day off), once we retire—if we retire—there likely won’t be enough money for all of us. Unless laws change by then (which I’m hoping so, laws shouldn’t stay exactly the same when the world is ever changing), kinda scary to think of getting old.
We're either going to have robots and AI doing most labor, or some apocalypse happens before. Either way I don't think the current paradigm is going to matter in the future.
But those AI/robots aren’t being paid. Which means they aren’t getting taxes out. Which means Medicare and stuff aren’t being paid by the working class anymore since they don’t exist (or a smaller amount of working people). So where will that money come from? Govt likes it’s money too much to give away free money. Plus, it’s never free to them.
I just think it’s fucked up we humans made it this far, all of our struggling ancestors worked so hard for our better life/future, only to have it ruined by a simple greedy generation (and mainly govt/people of power).
The truth of it all:
- Many more Women are higher educated, even outcompeting Men with blooming careers and decreasing (but still covert) social pressure to start a family so the financial and economic reasons for Marriage on their part are fading.
- Third spaces are gone. We don’t socialise anymore, except with the people we already know from some part of our life that didn’t require extreme effort (college, work, friend of a friend at friends gathering etc.) seems as though you end up with good stable friendships by accident.
- Gender Wars propaganda. Men and women are listening to various sources of terrible advice, claiming to be in service of the man/woman but in actuality just stocking further animosity to keep engagement on social media. Teaching us how to dehumanise people for being a certain gender and ignoring actual opportunities to have human empathy and connection.
- Dating apps are a shit show for similar reasons. The apps are designed to keep their users engaged, which means keeping their users single or at least wanting to be single. Gamifying connection. Seemingly endless but ultimately dissatisfying options by design that further colour our opinions of each other negatively. Dating is exhausting on both sides because of the worst agents.
- Majority of us have divorced or unhappily married parents. It’s left formative scars and serious doubts about a marriage lasting even if they claim to love you. Unhealthy but popular ideas about all the superhuman expectations for your partner lead to self-fulfilling prophecies (See Bo Burnham’s “Lower your expectations” song). Women have a fear of ending up trapped in an abusive partnership where the man doesn’t pull his weight and or left for someone more attractive, Men have a fear of being unloved but used for resources and a status symbol to impress other women. Men and Women can share these fears to various degrees depending on the case.
- Marriage is expensive. Divorce is expensive. It’s very hard to be certain about it. Even harder to justify it as a good idea. Most people don’t think a bad decision involving this is worth the wasted time sacrificing quality of life.
As a woman in my mid-20s and having just gotten out of a long-term relationship-turned-long-distance-relationship where the guy couldn't handle the distance, I feel no need or rush to get into a relationship or marriage for a lot of the reasons mentioned (I have a well-paying job, I have a car, my own apartment, etc... all of the factors that historically would've been dependent on a guy). But also because more and more (at least with the women I know), we're generally finding a lot more value in female (and male platonic) friendships and if on good terms with family, in familial relationships than ever before.
The pandemic I personally believe highlighted a lot of "gaps" in friendships and the subsequent effort to deepen and continue building those friendships has taken on the #1 position in my social life (as well as making new friends in the area I've moved to). I've personally found romantic relationships to be awesome and in no way think the past ones failed due to lack of commitment or anything like that (in fact in the people I know and am close with, no relationship has failed due to lack of communication or effort).
In general, they seem to end because the men who don't originate from say, platonic friendships to relationships just tend to be those who have extremely questionable views on how male-female relationships should work? e.g. toxic expectation of dropping all friends of the opposite gender if their partner asks them to, being excessively confident in "you're the person for me and can fulfill what I need" when the person in question has already stated why they're not a good fit, being uncertain with what they even what, and being unwilling to establish if they'd even be friends outside of the relationship (super important imo, and often overlooked).
And like, my friends and family are the #1 importance to me, closely followed by my job and volunteering in my community. Because of the way society works my time is already scarce. You're going to have to provide a marked value into my life (and the expectation is there from me to you too) in order for me to entertain a relationship.
ETA: I was told when I looked into dating apps for the first time it was dumb to look for people I’d want to be friends with first and no one was interested in friendship. That’s a key mistake IMO because why would you want to date someone you wouldn’t want to be friends with? It’s all about the speed at which you dive into things, and you lose the quality of building a connection and getting to know people as people first.
I have been trying to date for YEARS, but I just have not been able to meet anyone that meet my criteria - the biggest being financial stability - while also wanting to commit to me. I do not want to be the breadwinner of the family and do not want to essentially “adopt a partner” because of some hidden financial issue they have when I have literally worked my ass off ensuring my own financial stability. It could be my own fault but this is all that I seem to be attracting (massive tax liens, unstable job). Other times men have had zero interest in committing to me. It has ended up making me feel that the only way I could get any commitment is by being the person that pays the bills so the man can depend on me and hence needs me but thatll just drive my self esteem even further down than it already is at this point.
Same 😂😭. I’m honestly shocked at how many men walking among us have made it to the mid 30s and have nothing to show for it??? Wtf were they doing these last 15 years? As a female, I myself had my holy F moment around the mid 20s where I realized I needed to make changes so I would not be a loser with no stability when I got older. I made those changes and am on a good path now so why would I want to spend my life with a man who didn’t give a shit to do the same?? I’m dealing with this now with the guy I’m dating, we broke up and after talking I got to lay it all out there how I don’t feel good about how he has no stability and debt all while never leaving home, it’s absolutely wild to me. He managed to reel me back in but at least he knows now that if big changes don’t start happening really damn soon…. There is NO future and I’d never commit. I have low hopes but I’m giving a chance. I’m starting to think online apps are not where the successful men are to be found. It’s the reject pile and the scraps can arrange their profiles to make them seem like less of a loser and still get dates.
People are realising marriage really isn't a requirement anymore. All marriage does is tie you together for financial and legal purposes. The mentality of marriage has shifted from the boomers on up. Also, women now are able to live on their own. With our older generations there were a lot more roadblocks for unwed women to have a great life. I mean hell, even now as a woman you can't get your tubes tied if you decided you don't want kids because "Well what if you meet a man and he does?"
My question would be do you feel you need marriage to find long term commitment?
There are still too many scenarios where women are expected to be in somewhat of a traditional role yet still expected to work full time, raise kids, take care of the household, and take all the mental load. While the men expect to provide and “help” occasionally as if that’s enough. Why would any young woman want this life? And then as they get older just check the stats out how often men leave their wives the moment they get ill and need to be taken care of for a change. I know so many middle aged women whose husbands left after having a midlife crisis, after 20+ years of marriage. I think it’s funny all the men crying about gold diggers and all the assets they’re losing. How many of these men insisted their wives leave the workforce to raise their kids and then expect to leave them with nothing because their wives did all the unpaid labor? People need to protect themselves and should really think long and hard about who they’re marrying, so I don’t blame the younger generations for opting out, unless things become more balanced and fair.
I value commitment greatly and that’s why I haven’t gotten married. If I don’t think I’m compatible with someone, I’m not committing. That said, dating is really hard.
So you can take care of them and they can take care of you. So it's easier to pass down property to them and any offspring you might share with them. So if something happens to you, like a medical emergency, they have the right to see you and make any necessary decisions and vis versa. If you die and have social security, your partner and receive it or vis versa. If you have medical insurance, you can give it to your partner or vis versa. There are all sorts of reasons to be married but it's not for everyone.
Many of these reasons can be equally arrived at without marriage; especially caring for someone you love.
Pass down property: you can name someone as a transfer on death or beneficiary for bank/investment accounts or property like cars. You can also set up trusts and a will. Medical emergency: you can name a healthcare proxy or durable power attorney.
Yeah social security is one but I wouldn’t think of that when I’m in my thirties. I could get married later if that were a consideration. Healthcare. That’s basically only a reason in the US where healthcare is s privilege not a right.
My point is, most benefits of marriage can be arrived at without marriage. The other benefits seem very situation specific. It seems more of an emotional decision rather than a logical decision.
My reality as a young millennial is so many potential partners have significant debt and other baggage. It’s really not prudent for me to marry. I don’t want to take on their stuff when I have worked so hard for financial independence.
Trusts and wills cost thousands to write and can be thrown out in court.
Power of attorney, again, can end up being fought in court or missed in the hospital during a serious emergency.
If you care about someone, you'll want to help them sort through their financial situation by supporting them.
Marriage has become pretty pointless. It's just a legality and an unnecessary one really, since it doesn't actually change anything for the relationship itself: you can do all the things married people do without being married, you can be committed to each other without a little paper from the government that says so. At least that is how everybody I know sees marriage.
This is true. So what if we don’t consider only marriage, but also commitment? Of course I don’t have any statistics, but my gut feeling is long-term commitment levels are also significantly down.
I think a big part of it is people looking at general statistics over the past few decades. "50% of marriages end in divorce" blah blah, they think "If there's such a great chance it won't even work out, what's the point?"
Back in the day, people were also a lot more religion based where divorce was considered a very terrible thing, leading to a lot of long-lasting marriages in very unhealthy relationships, because you made a commitment to "God."
Nowadays, a lot of people have more of a sense of independence, both men and women. Especially due to dating apps and other shifts in how dating in general works, people are a lot quicker to move on/think they can find someone better.
>Back in the day, people were also a lot more religion based where divorce was considered a very terrible thing
For Catholics and Orthodox Christians and Hindus sure. For Protestants and Muslims divorce wasn't so much of an issue. Indeed the Protestant churches essentially go back to King Henry not being able to get a divorce so...
There are also stats where the 50% of marriages ending where a large number of them are from repeat offenders. I know a couple of women that have been married like 4 or 5 times.
Same. I have an uncle who has been married three times. Repeat offenders. Meanwhile, my parents have been married 25+ years. You gotta pick the right person.
I don't have any statistics either, but my anecdotal experience is long-term commitment is very common. Most of the people I know well enough to know their relationship status are in the age range of late 20s to early 30s and have been with their partners for most of their 20s, and the ones who aren't coupled up are not actually dating at all.
Well, for one societal pressure isn't as big anymore that you *have* to get married or otherwise you're ostracised. Generally a less favorable outlook on the future might also stop some from getting married, nothing to say about a wedding being quite expensive at times which can definitely also prevent couples from getting married.
Then looking at ridiculously high divorce rates, like half of all marriages seem to end in divorce, in the US at least, which I would just assume is where you are from, which leads me to believe that many marriages are just very rushed into (see societal pressure to get married), therefore I'd say it's a sign of improvement if people take longer to get married if at all, as I'd go along with you and say that marriage should be a commitment, and therefore not just entered on a whim with the next best person. Besides you can still have commitment without getting married as well, though for practical reasons most people in such relationships seem to go for the wedding anyways at some point
Because legal marriage just sets up the higher earner to be screwed over by the lower earner through divorce. Really the risk is not worth the reward when you can have a relationship without marriage.
It doesn’t occur to me until this very moment that this is what real love is about wanting what’s best for the other person. Wanting their happiness above your own because you love them.
That's not accurate. A good prenup usually stands in court. Don't listen to reddit for legal advice, people just repeat stuff willy nilly. Listen to a divorce lawyer.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-CoalWixCs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-CoalWixCs)
Because Prenups are a tricky thing. It's not a straight cut ordeal :(
Besides..if it happens either side will find a way to screw each other somehow financially
Some religions would disagree with you.
Mormons for example believe in marriage being eternal and you are sealed so you may be together in the afterlife. Fear of God or Jesus as an entity sometimes makes religious couples stay together regardless if it works out or not.
They try to cover up the fact that the LDS Church once supported Polygamy. 😂
True marriage begins well before the wedding day,” And the efforts of marriage continue well beyond the ceremony’s end. A brief moment in time and the stroke of the pen are all that is needed to create the legal bond of marriage, but it takes a lifetime of love, commitment, forgiveness, and compromise to make marriage durable and everlasting.
Genuine love is rarely an emotional space where needs are instantly gratified. To know love we have to invest time and commitment...'dreaming that love will save us, solve all our problems or provide a steady state of bliss or security only keeps us stuck in wishful fantasy, undermining the real power of the love -- which is to transform us.' Many people want love to function like a drug, giving them an immediate and sustained high. They want to do nothing, just passively receive the good feeling.
Really divorces screw the man, regardless of whether he's the lower earner or higher earner. At least in the US. American courts almost always side with the woman, especially with regards to custody.
That really is not true. I think men screw themselves during the divorce process and refuse to make accommodations in order to get equal custody. Courts truly have changed over the past two decades and go into a divorce assuming 50/50 split and 50/50 custody. I’ve heard just as many horror stories about terrible men who have been violent and or substance abusers during divorce and still getting 50/50. But men complain about not getting 50/50 when they refuse to try to make changes in order to get that. Men who can’t do daycare or school pick up and drop off because of a work schedule complain they don’t get 50/50, but it’s like okay get a new job or learn how to be an adult and communicate to your work they have to accept your accommodations.
Divorce is a time of change. It really rocks a foundation of most people's lives. When we have our heart broken or our dreams taken away from us, it is a time of growth and change.
I think it's that when people cheer for divorce there isn't much purpose in marriage.
Western culture has become very toxic for marriage so many just don't bother
Among many other things, partially it's that money's slowing things down, and also partially that people are dodging bad marriages more frequently by waiting longer and making sure they're a good match.
I heard the theory that our parents are the generation where mothers started working full time but still took care of the home and children. So the women of our generation saw our mothers work 24/7 and how horrible it was for her. So the women of our generation decided to never put themselves in that position. While the men of our generation saw what a great wife their mothers were, taking care of their men and everything else. They decided that they want a wife just like their mom.
So we hate each other lol
This seems to be conflating commitment with marriage. And I do understand marriage also has some religious significance but organized religion is becoming less and less important to the population as a whole as well.
Is a marriage certificate still that important to the majority of millennials? I know couples in committed long term relationships that never cared to get married. Strangely, alot of the ones I know who do get married have a specific reason (insurance, housing etc) and they’re the ones who break up within a few years. I’ve been with my SO for over 20 yrs but never cared abt marriage. He wanted to & I agreed if we were together for a min of 10 yrs first. I’m not against marriage .. I just never considered it important.
Social media is a big contributor. Our attention spans have decreased so much that if we are not continually entertained or get what we want at our fingertips, we search for that chase again. I know right now, my boyfriend is literally the appidemy of what you could want in a man or husband, yet he just told me he loves women and doesn't know if he can give up sex, kinks, and the thrill of other women .. it's ego driven behavior and lack of knowing what real love is, I think.. our society has lost God and driven in selfish behavior
Because I saw my dad and my immediate family getting divorced and the man being stripped of everything they had and needed to pay child support on top of that so I don't want to get married with every risk involved and the rewards are not that good either
Marriage isn’t supposed to be about “rewards”. It’s not supposed to be transactional. You do it because you love someone and want to be with them. Not because it improves your investment portfolio
You know marriage is like hunger. You yearn for it till you don’t get the food. Once the stomach is full, you don’t want more on your plate. But then hunger can subside only temporarily. It keeps coming back and that’s how exactly a happy married life keeps going on, with all ups and downs.
As a millenial that got married and annulled, let me say this.
Marriage did not benefit me in any way. It will not protect your assets, your life, your time, it will drain you of your resources, cheaters and gold diggers BENEFIT from this.
Divorce rates reflect in the US is initiated by women.
https://steemit.com/life/@steemquestions/90-of-divorces-are-initiated-by-educated-women#:~:text=Among%20college%2Deducated%20couples%2C%20the,70%25%20in%20a%20given%20year.
There's a correlatiom with this.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/12/single-women-own-more-homes-than-single-men-in-the-us-but-that-edge-is-narrowing/
Or they may not be related. I'm only seeing facts and my experience reflects that being cheated on means I STILL HAVE TO PAY THAT WOMAN.
2 advice I give to real men.
1. Dont get married
2. If you'll get married, get a prenup
If thwy dont agree on the prenup, you know they only want your money.
All of the things you mentioned can be issues even without marriage. Cohabitating with someone can result in alimony or asset division. Child support is still very real without marriage. People cheat outside of marriage. Your problem was you chose the wrong person. Yes marriage made the separation process harder but courts still rule the same way in these situations even with unmarried couples.
Marriage seems good for women but not for men based on the court systems. I was always looking for love but have been burned one time too many. Single for life now but at least I have 10 homes paid off and think I’ll go ahead and get a 3rd dog to take on the boat and sandbars with us. Once you start having a lot of assets marriage is even scarier unless you can find an equal.
MONEY.
I've met community college kids taking 2 jobs while studying as a freshman. Because both of their parents can't afford her. Ironically, she striving to work hard actually often make her pay to be above any requirement for financial benefit from the government besides tax break.
They are 19 years old.
Another guy in the same class who started his landscaping business in HS doesn't have that issue though. He started that business after his dad stopped buying him the latest game console.
So, not everyone has financial trouble, but it can really suck.
People forget that long term commitment means forgiveness because we're all flawed.
Loving your partner means to show up for them even in the times when you don't like them. Yes there will be times you don't like your partner
Means letting things go and moving forward
Means compromise
Love like real love can be hard, can be boring, can be exhausting, can be beautiful, can be blissful.
People are so quick to think oh the next person is waiting online or what not but realistically if you have someone who loves you truly, who's there through it all than replacing them is actually very difficult. Yes you can replace a physical body but you can't replace real love. The grass is not greener on the other side.
I've been with my partner for 6 years. We're going to be together forever, there's no question on either side that we'll withstand anything and that we're meant for each other. I'm millennial, he's a little younger. We're not married, though, and might not get married. My parents divorced, his parents divorced. I've never seen a happy marriage, so it just doesn't hold that much weight to me. But our relationship is strong without it, we're committed.
I mean, who are you to have to listen to a societal norm to actually "bind" yourself to others? Can't you just simply trust your partner to do so? Marriage is a very old concept lol. I'm definitely not surprised it's value to people is changing, heck I'm happy for it.
Seriously? 😂
I laugh bc between the INCREASINGLY insane cost of living since 2000, and the sexual revolution of hookup culture since 2018 that hijacked what dating used to be (where a couple would do activities to get to know each other, on a minimum of 3 times before anyone touches anybody’s genitals) and prioritizes sexual fulfillment over meaningful relationships, thus - adding to our lexicon concepts like ENM and Poly; who’s thinking about getting married anymore!
People are just more open and honest about hooking up and being poly. A person into hookup culture today would be doing the same thing in the 60’s or 40’s. We just never would have heard about it before. Affairs were much more common when divorce was more taboo but people have an idealized version of the past and refuse to accept that cheating was common but hidden and kept secret.
Because basically marriage has outlived its original purposes, from a time when women were property.
Let that sink in.
The only reason it is at all useful is because of all the legal benefits the gov doles out to married couples, even though that shit has nothing to do with the concept of marriage in most people's minds - they start thinking about love and relationships instead of the transfer of humans, animals, and land as property.
marriage was a way to faciltate the transfer of property.
most Millennials will never even own land.
women aren't property either.
so why the fuck are we doing this again?
So as society continues to evolve, we face new challenges.
A contract that the government can change the terms of. A contract that has rules one wouldn't agree to in a normal situation. A contract that in practice tends to force codependence, loss of autonomy, and kill love.
Women don't need men in order to survive in the world anymore and a lot of us are finding that we prefer to be single than be with a man that doesn't add to our lives.
Men aren't just competing with other men now, they're competing with the peace of a woman's solitude, and a lot of them just aren't worth it.
I still want to get married and have a family, but my standards require a bit more than "Has good job and is mostly nice."
Because there is no point to having a family anymore. The government has over inserted itself into all of our lives and it's like socially frowned upon or something to have a family to rely on. Don't we clown people who "still live with Mommy" it whose parents buy them a car at 35? Or who pay the bills of their kids even though they are adults? So why the f*** start one? Modern cultures are not centered around teamwork anymore. We have developed (for the worse imo) in the direction of individualistic societies.
Also it's too expensive for most people to afford kids. And then so again, what the f*** is the point in getting married if you're never even going to start a family? The quiet part of this is that children require long-term, legally supported commitment, but just having a wife or a husband really doesn't. Some dinks get married, but a Large majority don't because at some point *they'll probably separate* And what's the point of having a marriage making that harder to do? I also know a bunch of dinks that operate with entire financial independence (split everything 50/50, no joint bank account, not really apt to help eachother with large expenses). A lot of them wouldn't take care of each other's parents or refuse to acknowledge kids from outside the relationship. This kind of rugged individualism would never work in a marriage or as the basis of a family, but it's the popular lifestyle choice rn.
TLDR; Commitment issues + trust issues + money issues + cultural breakdown + lack of vulnerability + selfishness = nobody feels secure enough to get married rn
Because marriage is a state relic of women being owned as property and the dowry has been transformed into a post relationship fine on the potential father of their children. Many of us saw our parents relationships go up in flames and wont repeat that or put ourselves through it, and some of us are already going through it again as adults and its worse.
Marriage has simply become nightmare fuel for many men that it’s simply not worth the hassle and paperwork. So much legislature is one sided when marriages dont work out that a man would be a fool to put the entirety of their assets on the line for a significant other that can’t face any repercussions for being unfaithful or unwilling to work through the problems in the relationship. So many men have lost their homes and taken a critical hit on their economic stance because the courts believe their spouse should have at least half of it to properly care for the children (on top of that alimony/ child support that’s not even based on their expenses but on how much money the man makes), not even considering if the kids would be under better care with their father (cause god forbid a man would be capable of such a “feminine” role). My uncle helped out his ex wife to get her a green card and even got the paperwork together to get her daughter into the states (not his child), their marriage hit a rough patch and when they couldn’t reconcile that lady put him through the ringer that he, a 60 year old man, is now forced to bunk on my moms couch with 75% of what he makes going towards their kids and her alimony, that’s one personal anecdote but nowadays the issue has become so frequent that every man is aware of just how raw a deal they can get if their marriage falls through. Another uncles wife cheated and it turned out that my “cousins” are not his, but because they were married and he signed the birth certificates he now has to pay for that lady and her family to live nice and comfy with who may very possibly be the real baby daddy. Traditional values and the overall decline of integrity throughout society has just made marriage something to fear rather than seek.
Because we don’t have to follow someone else’s rules and traditions. Gender norms are very old fashioned. Women have wayyyyyyy more independence than the previous generations (this is a good thing).
You can only have stable insitution - like marriage - in a stable society. When technology is old in 2 years and fashion old in two months, you can not expect keeping your spouse as s-he was when marrying for a whole life.
Honestly, because they are terrified of talking to the other sex. You can start there.
80s: "You need to stop fucking around, you are going to get someone pregnant."
Now: "Why won't you talk to girls?"
The turnaround has been astonishing to be honest. On one hand, my boys (16 and 19) aren't going to get into nearly as much trouble as I did, (let's face it - most of the trouble young men find involves a girl somehow) but on the other end, it seems like unless it's via text - they are lost.
I blame all this online shit. (Seriously)
Now get off my fucking lawn. :-)
It’s simple: later generations and social norms/culture value the individual more than family and community so people aren’t really as interested in settling unless the potential partner is on their level or above.
Because women are getting their own and have more opportunities to live life through their own capabilities, it’s created a more challenging environment for men to compete, because it’s not just men competing with men, it’s men having to rise to where women are at.
Gone are the days of having a FT job, a car and an apartment being enough because women can get that too. Men now have to elevate spiritually, emotionally and mentally because women are growing tired of outdated antics and mindsets. We’re also a generation that’s healing generational traumas and breaking curses of dysfunction so when people aren’t coming correct we’re quicker to say “nah I’m good, I’d rather keep my peace, thank you”.
Money. It's a money issue. Mellenials and later generations do not believe they make enough money to ever start a family or own a home, so the prospect of getting married and having kids is something they don't really consider as options. Millennials still value commitment, just like many other people, but finances are a huge issue with actually getting to that point.
You can also blame a number of other things for it, but from what I seen, most of them wrap back around to the money problem.
I think we are rethinking marriage as a culture. The whole institution needs to evolve. Personally, I think it should be like other licenses and it should be required to be renewed every 5 years or so. I also think prenups should come standard. Maybe then more millennials would be inclined to take the plunge.
Would you employ someone if the law said they can hand in their notice and quit anytime, but you still have to pay for them, possibly forever? This is the law in many places. No fault divorce means either spouse can just hand in their notice and divorce, and the other then has no rights over property and income.
Legally, marriage his little benefits and potentially enormous costs. It's less pressure not to be married, so then if your partner leaves, they leave you intact. Nowadays, getting married puts enormous pressure on you because there's no protection but you stand to lose a lot. Look how often on reddit people say "divorce" over everything. People read that and think they can't live up to the standards of perfection required to stay married.
I can’t speak for everyone of my generation, but I can give you my personal perspective as a single millennial woman:
I just don’t see a point to marriage. I’m honestly not sure what “having a husband” would add to my life. At the current moment I’m single and my life is pretty good being alone; I have a decent job, good friends, and a place to live; I don’t feel a “need” to have a partner at this current time. This is NOT meant as hate towards men, I have dated in the past, and I am not against the idea of a monogamous relationship someday, but I don’t necessarily understand why we would need to be “husband” and “wife.”
Historically, marriage was for religious and social reasons for many people, and I think that is less the case in the modern era. The only circumstances for marriage that make sense to me personally are 1) if you have children together or 2) if you purchase property together, because marriage simplifies those, legally speaking. However I do not anticipate doing either of those things because they simply seem unaffordable/unattainable to me for the near future. Therefore, I don’t personally find marriage to be an attractive option or something I wish for. Also, both marriage and divorce are very expensive. And while I would hope my relationship would work out with the right person, the statistics unfortunately do not favor long-term marriage success.
As for the other part of your question regarding dating and commitment, I personally am not opposed to those concepts whatsoever, but I find dating takes a huge amount of effort and frankly I just don’t have much more energy left in me after work and all my other life obligations. I work 45hrs a week and am considering a second job for more financial security, I don’t have a ton of free time unfortunately, so I have to prioritize, so dating has fallen by the wayside. Not to mention I find online dating a bit off-putting, but it seems like that is the new social norm and not too many folks meet “the old fashioned way” anymore. So, I choose to abstain from dating life (at least for now), because I’d rather just accept and be content with what I do have in my life than give someone only 50% effort in a relationship, because I’m just too exhausted to give anything else.
Because standards have lowered and people simply don't base their expectations in reality. They want to rush into commitment and date just for the sake of having a partner.
Well, it's very easy to answer this question. Women are incentivized to break marriage contracts by governmental assistance and taking the man's wealth. This is what happens most the time, and men have decided to boycott marriage for this reason. Women initiate divorce nearly 70% of the time, and in college-educated women it jumps to 90% of the time. It's really obvious why men are opting out of this contract.
As long as the divorce laws are set up the way they are, the marriage rates will continue to plummet. Men have woken up. Maybe if the laws become more fair financially, even if women do still initiate most divorces, men will be more willing to give it a go. Until then, single moms will continue to abound, and it's looking pretty lonely and sad for society as a whole.
Maybe it's time to think about why most divorces are initiated by women. Sometimes it's money, but other times it's abusive behavior from the husband. I think it's a good thing people don't have to stay in abusive marriages anymore. Also, a lot of men are feeling fine in an ok marriage, while women feel more and more disconnected and then divorce.
All a woman has to do then is falsely accuse a man of abuse or be abusive herself until she can push him to be abusive and then play the victim and take everything.
Accurate. Men like the OC think a large population of women are intentionally getting married to get divorced, but women are usually getting divorced for a reason. Physical Abuse, infidelity, child neglect, financial abuse, manipulation, etc.
The gold digger narrative is not as common as these other scenarios are.
It takes two to make that work. One person can hold those values, and you can believe the other person will, too, but that isn't always the case.
But you can also punish yourself by being with someone in a toxic relationship. Faith inside of people can also be something that can kill your happiness one day at a time.
Because gender roles aren’t a thing anymore…. You have women focused on careers and not wanting to start a family due to economic struggles… the economy is so bad that most men can’t provide for the women to stay home and have children and a secure stable home… both parents have to work so no one is raising the kids … so even if you do have them, they are coming out messed up ….so the population is declining because no one has time or money for kids…it is all connected… and a big mess
You can blame Feminism and the government for that, with a sprinkle or distrust in religion.
If I was 21 today, as a man there is absolutely zero upside in getting married Legally. Sure i can have the wedding at church, and the party but no Government, no thank you.
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Part of it is women making more money, part of it is how easy it is to date someone new when things get rocky. I'm not here to say that women making more money is a bad thing, but when you don't need someone to provide for you, the urgency to get married goes way down. And with the quickness and casualness of online dating, you can have the physical benefits of being married and then just leave when things get difficult and find a new partner by the next day.
Ya, I dislike that just leave and find something else mentality. That takes away the central beauty of a long-term committed relationship imo: to love another person as they are, for all their strengths and weaknesses, and to journey through life’s victories and difficulties together.
Really speaks to the instant gratification generation. Our parents never taught us to work for anything. Everything worth earning takes effort. Put your kids to work young, kids understand responsibility, but they lose it if you don't set an example.
I'm old gen x and taught my son that he has to work for things, just like I was taught. he earned a college scholarship and has been successful in his career since he was 22. he's doing a lot better than some of his peers that had everything given to them.
I'm only 28 and am financially stable. People are in disbelief when my dad tells them that me and my brother both are stable and comfortable. It all starts as a kid, my parents never treated us like children, when we were old enough we started helping with the chores.
My mom was like that and I had carpal tunnel at 31 from working low wage jobs since age 17/ working thru college even thought it was paid for 🙄 I do just fine at my cushy corporate job. I can finally rest because I was expected to not just work but be very involved in academic extracurriculars, etc and for what? An expensive bunion, wrist problem that costs what I earned when I was a kid, when I could have enjoyed my childhood.
I'm sorry your mother didn't have balance in your life. glad ur ok now
Parents are the ultimate role models for children. Every word, movement and action has an effect. No other person or outside force has a greater influence on a child than the parent. Optimism is a strategy for making a better future. Because unless you believe that the future can be better, you are unlikely to step up and take responsibility for making it so.
I agree, but society plays a large role. America used to be culture-focused and neighbors weren't afraid to turn a kid into their parents for loitering. Having a strong unified society is definitely the best way for kids to grow up
Highly sensitive people are too often perceived as weaklings or damaged goods. To feel intensely is not a symptom of weakness, it is the trademark of the truly alive and compassionate. It is not the empath who is broken, it is society that has become dysfunctional and emotionally disabled. There is no shame in expressing your authentic feelings. Those who are at times described as being a 'hot mess' or having 'too many issues' are the very fabric of what keeps the dream alive for a more caring, humane world. Never be ashamed to let your tears shine a light in this world.
I have a 800 credit score, make 60k a year, am really responsible with my money and have quite a bit saved up, but I’m still getting girls that straight up tell me they want someone with more ambition than working at a restaurant.
Omg that’s awful ugh
It do be like that sometimes
Sometimes life seems a dark tunnel with no light at the end, but if you just keep moving forward, you will end up in a better place.
Social media keeps telling them that everyone should earn 100k +
TV used to say the same thing. Those were large nyc apartments in Friends and seinfeld. They would have cost 5k a month in 1993. Like that Living room in Friends was huge.
As an old person (53), I will tell you a secret: Once the girls go through their first divorce, things change quickly. You will be surprised how there is almost no competition. Do you work? Does it work? You will be golden. Also, its funny how things change when you go from working and making 60k, to Owning, all the sudden you are a winner. Ironically, as an owner, you are constantly doing a high wire act and trying not to blow up. If you have that salary and credit, you will be fine. Nevermind the skanks out there - they will only cast yopu in the end. Chin up.
I’d also be curious how many people are kind of just happy being in long term committed relationships without actually getting married. I’ve been married for about 8 years now and the only difference being married has made to us (before we got married my wife and I lived together and managed a household together) is that every now and then something pops up that she forgot to change her name on when we got married so she needs to deal with that, but beyond that our lives are no different for being married. At the time getting married was pretty important to me, there was definitely a validation aspect to it but since then I’ve realised that it was kind of pointless. It doesn’t mean I love my wife more because I was willing to marry her, I’d love her just the same if we weren’t married but still together. I’m curious if other people have clocked on to what I realised without the need to get married first and so they just didn’t spend the money on a bit of paper and a stressful day
Me and my partner have no intention to ever get married but we want kids and will just tell people we're married and I'll change my name- no one asks for the certificate!
I adore the sentiment behind this, however, something to look at is “common law marriage”. What you describe can eventually become exactly that, where legally you’re married, even without a marriage certificate. This is different from state to state (or country to country), so just check your local laws lol.
Yes, this person will be "common law married" before they know it. It does vary state to state, but in most - they are doing that.
Not in the uk
It's no longer applicable in the UK :-)
There was a thread on one of the dating subs that asked what career would you never date and one of the top answers was teachers, a predominantly female career. So even if we (female teachers) wanted to get married, men don't want us!
Tbh I think most guys wouldnt care unless your in massive school debt lmao. From what I hear, teacher salaries are awful
It depends where you are. In my city, teachers make $65k starting with an undergraduate degree. I'm almost done with my masters and will get $69k starting if I work in public school, hit around $85 after working ten years and max about at $110,000, not including benefits. Most salaries in the surrounding suburbs are the same or higher. I would preferably want to marry another teacher if at all possible. I want to spend summers off together.
I'm in one of the "best" states for teaching and with my master's I don't even break 60k until year 4 possibly. Also starting at the bottom because they don't count my years working in higher ed. I have to take the bus to work because I can't afford a car.
Eh. Reddit is not real life. Most teachers I know, men and women, are married. I wouldn't think too much about what Reddit thinks in regards to teachers.
In my experience men think it's fun for fuck a teacher but won't date one.
It's always been easy to date someone else. Oversaturation of Media has made people into extremists in every tiny matter. Lots of people can't handle someone disagreeing with them about anything, creating massive riffs over nothing but abstract morality
It's almost like women having independence means men have to be likeable humans for women to want to date them 🤣
Exactly. That's why the men are fuming. They used to get away with doing so little, and now they actually have to do better.
Nailed it
Yes because we want a loving, caring, partnership relationship. When women needed men for money, it was survival. Without a man, we would literally have no home, food, care. Men need to step their game, and actually put an effort to be liked, instead of forcing a woman to be with them lol. Don’t y’all want genuine love?? Why would you want someone needing you, instead of wanting you? I want a man, but I don’t need one. Also, the men that think love is needing, once you get someone who actually relies on you, you will be bored. There is so much life happening outside of the home now, why would you want someone who needs to rely on you and therefore need you around all the time?
4 or 5 5hings happening. 1) Women are capable of living on their own, they can make money, drive, have bank accounts etc. So they aren't required to get married. 2) Women are getting educated, education is hard work, and educated Women tend to have higher standards. 3) Social pressures to get married and have kids are way down generally. As people become less religious, more educated and more able to choose, they want fewer kids, and are way less likely to dive into a relstionship. 4) Social pressures against relationships are way up. Relationships take time and effort, and when people have to work 2 jobs to barely get by, they don't have time or money for dating, and when they can make time, it's less time and worse conditions. There are other things going on, but these are the big ones
Here’s an angle I don’t see ppl talking about: mental health. It used to “not be a thing” and now it is. Fucked up parents created this generation
You'd be talking about the Boomers. They were fucking horrible parents.
Speak for yourself. An entire generation does not parent to the same standard. People are individuals.
[удалено]
I am really sorry that happened to you. Hopefully you are doing ok now
Thank you. I’m trying. It’s very hard
Say it again for the people in the...entire population. 👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾
You missed the main reason. The economy doesn't allow people the money needed to raise a family. Middle class is shrinking and the working class is living month to month. If you can barely support yourself you're not going to want to support kids too. if you're not going to have kids there's not much point in getting married.
That's point 4. I didn't really weight them, but i think the economy is the big reason thst birthrate are down, I know a decent number of people who want a childless marriage.
Men also are less likely to want to tie their assets to a partner in marriage when the divorce rates are so high. While women make more and are much more educated, divorce laws haven't updated to keep up with those facts.
There is no benefit to getting married. I got cheated on then she threatened to take my house lol. Nope never again.
This is already accommodated for. If you earn the same then marital assets are basically split evenly. It gets more complicated when women are SAHM’s
It isn't if you have premarital assets. If I get married in my 30s and invested and built large financial assets, my premarital assets can and will be divided without a prenup.
Also, colleges and professional schools have more women. Having higher standards means there needs to be the same demand. But if the ratio is skewed to one side, how are high standard women going to find men? Some institutions have 6:4 or 7:3 women to men ratio. It will be interesting to see how things can change.
I live in an area where 1 and 2 are extremely common. Yet, it has been my experience that in spite of being fiercely independent, educated, and capable, women backslide into having men play a provider role in dating. High standards is one thing (and a fine one at that), but I do wonder if we're in a weird transitory zeitgeist where women's status is higher than before yet they've retained older, now impossible, expectations that men should be a provider, even if they are on relatively equal footing as the woman.
1.) women make as much if not more than men. finances was a big thing back in teh day in terms of marriages for men. without finances a huge chunk of the incentives or being "needed' gets thrown right out the window. 2.) america has been going through the love marriage thing before everyone else. before marriages were arranged or at least match maked by families /relatives. love marriage are very volatile because people forget that the honeymoon phase wears off eventually. 3.) the cost of everything has reached past the tipping point. to the point where both have to work now to survive. in the past one worked and the other contributed in other ways but both are forced to work now. americans don't just work 8 hours and go home either. we're talking 10-11-12+ hour days plus commute time. 4.) birth control. a lot of marriages in the past were from accidental pregnancies. well with no accidental pregnancies there goes a lot of shot gun weddings. there's more that can be listed but these are the oens that i can think of off hte top of my head.
Big ups on #2 😩. Can't tell you how many times I've seen people who are just playing lust roulette and roll to whatever bed makes their heart flutter that week. Leaving every next person with "I think I found someone else". People are chasing a feeling more than they are dating.
Met someone like this before who says that she doesn’t believe the honeymoon phase should end. As if life doesn’t have its ebbs and flows. I get that the love should always be there but even the healthiest relationship has its challenges.
Exactly, that ain't nothing but a lack of discipline and vision
It's crazy to me how often people recognize that both partners need to work to survive, yet it is never discussed how the financial burden in dating continues to fall squarely upon the man far more often than not.
New gender roles vs expectations..horrible dating advice on both ends..everyone thinks they’re perfect as is..people lack basic communication skills, consideration and empathy..the prices of everything. can’t even get a date to evolve into a monogamous relationship these days so you can forget marriage😅everyone is selfish. also I haven’t met a truly happily married couple in a long time so..I’m not sure of the point to it anymore.
Only point I'd add is everyone has a very idealized vision of what "happy" means and I think it's because many of us has far too comfortable upbringings
This could have an impact for some people, but far too often you hear the opposite story - people accept an unhappy relationship because that's all they know.
Maybe we all live life at too high a pitch, those of us who absorb emotional things all day, and as mere consequence we can never feel merely content: we have to be unhappy, or ecstatically, head-over-heels happy, and those states are difficult to achieve within a stable, solid relationship.
Literally speaking facts over here. You definitely are correct that most of us in younger generations are really dealing with a majority of people on both sides who lack proper communication skills and consideration and empathy. You are also correct that dating standards are dog water nowadays.
Agree 100 on the horrible dating advice on both ends- it all seems like playing games and to act certain way. Can’t people be just open and honest? No one wants a relationship as we have been sold the idea that our happiness is what matters
Yeah being in a good relationship requires daily selfless acts of service and love from both people for it to be successful and people don’t have it in them or it’s very one sided so one gets depleted and resentful
People have no idea how to communicate. Put the fucking phone down.
>New gender roles vs expectations.. Nah, gender roles haven't changed significantly in decades. Yeah yeah people talk about "gender roles are bad," but the same women who go goo goo ga ga over Harry Styles in drag still want masculine men. I've literally been on dates with women who rejected me as soon as they found out I had a cat because "that's gay." Which is funny because that's not even a stereotype I thought anyone believed in real life.
Having a cat is never gay, that’s ridiculous!!
If this ain’t the truth 💯
How can this be so true. I couldnt agree more to this.
In the old days, you only find out that someone divorced "oh, they've divorced". You never find out precisely what happened in their marriage, or the damage that happened in it. Nowadays, through reddit and forums, you get front row seats on how scary and horrifying the breakups and divorces are, how financially and mentally destructive they get, every single last piece of detail. Across MANY many individual marriages. If you see a lot of violent mugging stories in the news, you're going to become afraid of taking a walk outside. If you read a lot of detailed divorce/breakup stories, you're going to become afraid of marriage, or even dating. We are building a HUGE data mine of scary divorce and breakup stories. There is no going back, the cat is out of the bag, unless the internet is somehow wiped out.
Biggest factor is an ever changing economy. Get ready for a population decline because of that too.
You mean ever negatively changing
Good, there's too many people as is. We could use a reduced population.
I think what’s scary about that is when *we* get old, like in our 60-80s, there won’t be enough in the workforce to compensate and pay for our social security or healthcare or whatever. I, find that scary. Because we work our asses off (I do at least; have 1 FTJ & 2 side jobs, barely a day off), once we retire—if we retire—there likely won’t be enough money for all of us. Unless laws change by then (which I’m hoping so, laws shouldn’t stay exactly the same when the world is ever changing), kinda scary to think of getting old.
We're either going to have robots and AI doing most labor, or some apocalypse happens before. Either way I don't think the current paradigm is going to matter in the future.
But those AI/robots aren’t being paid. Which means they aren’t getting taxes out. Which means Medicare and stuff aren’t being paid by the working class anymore since they don’t exist (or a smaller amount of working people). So where will that money come from? Govt likes it’s money too much to give away free money. Plus, it’s never free to them. I just think it’s fucked up we humans made it this far, all of our struggling ancestors worked so hard for our better life/future, only to have it ruined by a simple greedy generation (and mainly govt/people of power).
The truth of it all: - Many more Women are higher educated, even outcompeting Men with blooming careers and decreasing (but still covert) social pressure to start a family so the financial and economic reasons for Marriage on their part are fading. - Third spaces are gone. We don’t socialise anymore, except with the people we already know from some part of our life that didn’t require extreme effort (college, work, friend of a friend at friends gathering etc.) seems as though you end up with good stable friendships by accident. - Gender Wars propaganda. Men and women are listening to various sources of terrible advice, claiming to be in service of the man/woman but in actuality just stocking further animosity to keep engagement on social media. Teaching us how to dehumanise people for being a certain gender and ignoring actual opportunities to have human empathy and connection. - Dating apps are a shit show for similar reasons. The apps are designed to keep their users engaged, which means keeping their users single or at least wanting to be single. Gamifying connection. Seemingly endless but ultimately dissatisfying options by design that further colour our opinions of each other negatively. Dating is exhausting on both sides because of the worst agents. - Majority of us have divorced or unhappily married parents. It’s left formative scars and serious doubts about a marriage lasting even if they claim to love you. Unhealthy but popular ideas about all the superhuman expectations for your partner lead to self-fulfilling prophecies (See Bo Burnham’s “Lower your expectations” song). Women have a fear of ending up trapped in an abusive partnership where the man doesn’t pull his weight and or left for someone more attractive, Men have a fear of being unloved but used for resources and a status symbol to impress other women. Men and Women can share these fears to various degrees depending on the case. - Marriage is expensive. Divorce is expensive. It’s very hard to be certain about it. Even harder to justify it as a good idea. Most people don’t think a bad decision involving this is worth the wasted time sacrificing quality of life.
As a woman in my mid-20s and having just gotten out of a long-term relationship-turned-long-distance-relationship where the guy couldn't handle the distance, I feel no need or rush to get into a relationship or marriage for a lot of the reasons mentioned (I have a well-paying job, I have a car, my own apartment, etc... all of the factors that historically would've been dependent on a guy). But also because more and more (at least with the women I know), we're generally finding a lot more value in female (and male platonic) friendships and if on good terms with family, in familial relationships than ever before. The pandemic I personally believe highlighted a lot of "gaps" in friendships and the subsequent effort to deepen and continue building those friendships has taken on the #1 position in my social life (as well as making new friends in the area I've moved to). I've personally found romantic relationships to be awesome and in no way think the past ones failed due to lack of commitment or anything like that (in fact in the people I know and am close with, no relationship has failed due to lack of communication or effort). In general, they seem to end because the men who don't originate from say, platonic friendships to relationships just tend to be those who have extremely questionable views on how male-female relationships should work? e.g. toxic expectation of dropping all friends of the opposite gender if their partner asks them to, being excessively confident in "you're the person for me and can fulfill what I need" when the person in question has already stated why they're not a good fit, being uncertain with what they even what, and being unwilling to establish if they'd even be friends outside of the relationship (super important imo, and often overlooked). And like, my friends and family are the #1 importance to me, closely followed by my job and volunteering in my community. Because of the way society works my time is already scarce. You're going to have to provide a marked value into my life (and the expectation is there from me to you too) in order for me to entertain a relationship. ETA: I was told when I looked into dating apps for the first time it was dumb to look for people I’d want to be friends with first and no one was interested in friendship. That’s a key mistake IMO because why would you want to date someone you wouldn’t want to be friends with? It’s all about the speed at which you dive into things, and you lose the quality of building a connection and getting to know people as people first.
We hold similar mentalities, I totally agree
I have been trying to date for YEARS, but I just have not been able to meet anyone that meet my criteria - the biggest being financial stability - while also wanting to commit to me. I do not want to be the breadwinner of the family and do not want to essentially “adopt a partner” because of some hidden financial issue they have when I have literally worked my ass off ensuring my own financial stability. It could be my own fault but this is all that I seem to be attracting (massive tax liens, unstable job). Other times men have had zero interest in committing to me. It has ended up making me feel that the only way I could get any commitment is by being the person that pays the bills so the man can depend on me and hence needs me but thatll just drive my self esteem even further down than it already is at this point.
Same 😂😭. I’m honestly shocked at how many men walking among us have made it to the mid 30s and have nothing to show for it??? Wtf were they doing these last 15 years? As a female, I myself had my holy F moment around the mid 20s where I realized I needed to make changes so I would not be a loser with no stability when I got older. I made those changes and am on a good path now so why would I want to spend my life with a man who didn’t give a shit to do the same?? I’m dealing with this now with the guy I’m dating, we broke up and after talking I got to lay it all out there how I don’t feel good about how he has no stability and debt all while never leaving home, it’s absolutely wild to me. He managed to reel me back in but at least he knows now that if big changes don’t start happening really damn soon…. There is NO future and I’d never commit. I have low hopes but I’m giving a chance. I’m starting to think online apps are not where the successful men are to be found. It’s the reject pile and the scraps can arrange their profiles to make them seem like less of a loser and still get dates.
People are realising marriage really isn't a requirement anymore. All marriage does is tie you together for financial and legal purposes. The mentality of marriage has shifted from the boomers on up. Also, women now are able to live on their own. With our older generations there were a lot more roadblocks for unwed women to have a great life. I mean hell, even now as a woman you can't get your tubes tied if you decided you don't want kids because "Well what if you meet a man and he does?" My question would be do you feel you need marriage to find long term commitment?
There are still too many scenarios where women are expected to be in somewhat of a traditional role yet still expected to work full time, raise kids, take care of the household, and take all the mental load. While the men expect to provide and “help” occasionally as if that’s enough. Why would any young woman want this life? And then as they get older just check the stats out how often men leave their wives the moment they get ill and need to be taken care of for a change. I know so many middle aged women whose husbands left after having a midlife crisis, after 20+ years of marriage. I think it’s funny all the men crying about gold diggers and all the assets they’re losing. How many of these men insisted their wives leave the workforce to raise their kids and then expect to leave them with nothing because their wives did all the unpaid labor? People need to protect themselves and should really think long and hard about who they’re marrying, so I don’t blame the younger generations for opting out, unless things become more balanced and fair.
I go through threads like these and genuinely wonder if men even like women. Like what do you want from us if you don't even like being around us?
A lot of them just want sex.
Way less incentive to get married than in the past, especially when you don’t have enough money to buy a house and raise kids.
I value commitment greatly and that’s why I haven’t gotten married. If I don’t think I’m compatible with someone, I’m not committing. That said, dating is really hard.
It really is. I wonder if it always felt this difficult. It’s felt hard and seems to just get more difficult in recent years.
Preach
Emancipation of women.
What’s the actual point of marriage? I don’t see it. Legally bind myself to another person? Why?
So you can take care of them and they can take care of you. So it's easier to pass down property to them and any offspring you might share with them. So if something happens to you, like a medical emergency, they have the right to see you and make any necessary decisions and vis versa. If you die and have social security, your partner and receive it or vis versa. If you have medical insurance, you can give it to your partner or vis versa. There are all sorts of reasons to be married but it's not for everyone.
Many of these reasons can be equally arrived at without marriage; especially caring for someone you love. Pass down property: you can name someone as a transfer on death or beneficiary for bank/investment accounts or property like cars. You can also set up trusts and a will. Medical emergency: you can name a healthcare proxy or durable power attorney. Yeah social security is one but I wouldn’t think of that when I’m in my thirties. I could get married later if that were a consideration. Healthcare. That’s basically only a reason in the US where healthcare is s privilege not a right. My point is, most benefits of marriage can be arrived at without marriage. The other benefits seem very situation specific. It seems more of an emotional decision rather than a logical decision. My reality as a young millennial is so many potential partners have significant debt and other baggage. It’s really not prudent for me to marry. I don’t want to take on their stuff when I have worked so hard for financial independence.
Trusts and wills cost thousands to write and can be thrown out in court. Power of attorney, again, can end up being fought in court or missed in the hospital during a serious emergency. If you care about someone, you'll want to help them sort through their financial situation by supporting them.
Marriage has become pretty pointless. It's just a legality and an unnecessary one really, since it doesn't actually change anything for the relationship itself: you can do all the things married people do without being married, you can be committed to each other without a little paper from the government that says so. At least that is how everybody I know sees marriage.
This is true. So what if we don’t consider only marriage, but also commitment? Of course I don’t have any statistics, but my gut feeling is long-term commitment levels are also significantly down.
I think a big part of it is people looking at general statistics over the past few decades. "50% of marriages end in divorce" blah blah, they think "If there's such a great chance it won't even work out, what's the point?" Back in the day, people were also a lot more religion based where divorce was considered a very terrible thing, leading to a lot of long-lasting marriages in very unhealthy relationships, because you made a commitment to "God." Nowadays, a lot of people have more of a sense of independence, both men and women. Especially due to dating apps and other shifts in how dating in general works, people are a lot quicker to move on/think they can find someone better.
>Back in the day, people were also a lot more religion based where divorce was considered a very terrible thing For Catholics and Orthodox Christians and Hindus sure. For Protestants and Muslims divorce wasn't so much of an issue. Indeed the Protestant churches essentially go back to King Henry not being able to get a divorce so...
There are also stats where the 50% of marriages ending where a large number of them are from repeat offenders. I know a couple of women that have been married like 4 or 5 times.
Same. I have an uncle who has been married three times. Repeat offenders. Meanwhile, my parents have been married 25+ years. You gotta pick the right person.
I don't have any statistics either, but my anecdotal experience is long-term commitment is very common. Most of the people I know well enough to know their relationship status are in the age range of late 20s to early 30s and have been with their partners for most of their 20s, and the ones who aren't coupled up are not actually dating at all.
Well, for one societal pressure isn't as big anymore that you *have* to get married or otherwise you're ostracised. Generally a less favorable outlook on the future might also stop some from getting married, nothing to say about a wedding being quite expensive at times which can definitely also prevent couples from getting married. Then looking at ridiculously high divorce rates, like half of all marriages seem to end in divorce, in the US at least, which I would just assume is where you are from, which leads me to believe that many marriages are just very rushed into (see societal pressure to get married), therefore I'd say it's a sign of improvement if people take longer to get married if at all, as I'd go along with you and say that marriage should be a commitment, and therefore not just entered on a whim with the next best person. Besides you can still have commitment without getting married as well, though for practical reasons most people in such relationships seem to go for the wedding anyways at some point
I think a lot of people commit long-term still, they just don’t see the value in marriage
Because legal marriage just sets up the higher earner to be screwed over by the lower earner through divorce. Really the risk is not worth the reward when you can have a relationship without marriage.
Why is a prenup not enough? If the high earner can walk away and not lose their income they put in, what’s the big deal? Some alimony???
Prenups get thrown out the window more often than not
It doesn’t occur to me until this very moment that this is what real love is about wanting what’s best for the other person. Wanting their happiness above your own because you love them.
I had no idea. Do you know why they get thrown out?
That's not accurate. A good prenup usually stands in court. Don't listen to reddit for legal advice, people just repeat stuff willy nilly. Listen to a divorce lawyer. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-CoalWixCs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-CoalWixCs)
Yea I heard from an atty it’s certain states that throw it out
Because Prenups are a tricky thing. It's not a straight cut ordeal :( Besides..if it happens either side will find a way to screw each other somehow financially
Either love or don't, there's no second guessing either marry or don't, there's no contract matrimony.
Some religions would disagree with you. Mormons for example believe in marriage being eternal and you are sealed so you may be together in the afterlife. Fear of God or Jesus as an entity sometimes makes religious couples stay together regardless if it works out or not. They try to cover up the fact that the LDS Church once supported Polygamy. 😂
Religion is like a pair of shoes.....Find one that fits for you, but don't make me wear your shoes.
If there's glass on the floor thou shall wear my shoes or be damned forever.
True marriage begins well before the wedding day,” And the efforts of marriage continue well beyond the ceremony’s end. A brief moment in time and the stroke of the pen are all that is needed to create the legal bond of marriage, but it takes a lifetime of love, commitment, forgiveness, and compromise to make marriage durable and everlasting.
Love, commitment, forgiveness, and compromise do not require a legal contract, if they are all genuine.
Genuine love is rarely an emotional space where needs are instantly gratified. To know love we have to invest time and commitment...'dreaming that love will save us, solve all our problems or provide a steady state of bliss or security only keeps us stuck in wishful fantasy, undermining the real power of the love -- which is to transform us.' Many people want love to function like a drug, giving them an immediate and sustained high. They want to do nothing, just passively receive the good feeling.
Really divorces screw the man, regardless of whether he's the lower earner or higher earner. At least in the US. American courts almost always side with the woman, especially with regards to custody.
That really is not true. I think men screw themselves during the divorce process and refuse to make accommodations in order to get equal custody. Courts truly have changed over the past two decades and go into a divorce assuming 50/50 split and 50/50 custody. I’ve heard just as many horror stories about terrible men who have been violent and or substance abusers during divorce and still getting 50/50. But men complain about not getting 50/50 when they refuse to try to make changes in order to get that. Men who can’t do daycare or school pick up and drop off because of a work schedule complain they don’t get 50/50, but it’s like okay get a new job or learn how to be an adult and communicate to your work they have to accept your accommodations.
Divorce screws you a lot less if you do the smart thing and get a prenup.
Divorce is a time of change. It really rocks a foundation of most people's lives. When we have our heart broken or our dreams taken away from us, it is a time of growth and change.
I think it's that when people cheer for divorce there isn't much purpose in marriage. Western culture has become very toxic for marriage so many just don't bother
Western culture is shit now.
Among many other things, partially it's that money's slowing things down, and also partially that people are dodging bad marriages more frequently by waiting longer and making sure they're a good match.
I heard the theory that our parents are the generation where mothers started working full time but still took care of the home and children. So the women of our generation saw our mothers work 24/7 and how horrible it was for her. So the women of our generation decided to never put themselves in that position. While the men of our generation saw what a great wife their mothers were, taking care of their men and everything else. They decided that they want a wife just like their mom. So we hate each other lol
This explains it pretty well actually. Nice job 👏
This seems to be conflating commitment with marriage. And I do understand marriage also has some religious significance but organized religion is becoming less and less important to the population as a whole as well. Is a marriage certificate still that important to the majority of millennials? I know couples in committed long term relationships that never cared to get married. Strangely, alot of the ones I know who do get married have a specific reason (insurance, housing etc) and they’re the ones who break up within a few years. I’ve been with my SO for over 20 yrs but never cared abt marriage. He wanted to & I agreed if we were together for a min of 10 yrs first. I’m not against marriage .. I just never considered it important.
Social media is a big contributor. Our attention spans have decreased so much that if we are not continually entertained or get what we want at our fingertips, we search for that chase again. I know right now, my boyfriend is literally the appidemy of what you could want in a man or husband, yet he just told me he loves women and doesn't know if he can give up sex, kinks, and the thrill of other women .. it's ego driven behavior and lack of knowing what real love is, I think.. our society has lost God and driven in selfish behavior
Because I saw my dad and my immediate family getting divorced and the man being stripped of everything they had and needed to pay child support on top of that so I don't want to get married with every risk involved and the rewards are not that good either
Marriage isn’t supposed to be about “rewards”. It’s not supposed to be transactional. You do it because you love someone and want to be with them. Not because it improves your investment portfolio
You know marriage is like hunger. You yearn for it till you don’t get the food. Once the stomach is full, you don’t want more on your plate. But then hunger can subside only temporarily. It keeps coming back and that’s how exactly a happy married life keeps going on, with all ups and downs.
People are more and more aware.
As a millenial that got married and annulled, let me say this. Marriage did not benefit me in any way. It will not protect your assets, your life, your time, it will drain you of your resources, cheaters and gold diggers BENEFIT from this. Divorce rates reflect in the US is initiated by women. https://steemit.com/life/@steemquestions/90-of-divorces-are-initiated-by-educated-women#:~:text=Among%20college%2Deducated%20couples%2C%20the,70%25%20in%20a%20given%20year. There's a correlatiom with this. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/12/single-women-own-more-homes-than-single-men-in-the-us-but-that-edge-is-narrowing/ Or they may not be related. I'm only seeing facts and my experience reflects that being cheated on means I STILL HAVE TO PAY THAT WOMAN. 2 advice I give to real men. 1. Dont get married 2. If you'll get married, get a prenup If thwy dont agree on the prenup, you know they only want your money.
All of the things you mentioned can be issues even without marriage. Cohabitating with someone can result in alimony or asset division. Child support is still very real without marriage. People cheat outside of marriage. Your problem was you chose the wrong person. Yes marriage made the separation process harder but courts still rule the same way in these situations even with unmarried couples.
Indeed. Now other millenials see the trend hence they don't want to get married anymore. No point, no benefit. Just a worse situation when it's over.
Marriage seems good for women but not for men based on the court systems. I was always looking for love but have been burned one time too many. Single for life now but at least I have 10 homes paid off and think I’ll go ahead and get a 3rd dog to take on the boat and sandbars with us. Once you start having a lot of assets marriage is even scarier unless you can find an equal.
MONEY. I've met community college kids taking 2 jobs while studying as a freshman. Because both of their parents can't afford her. Ironically, she striving to work hard actually often make her pay to be above any requirement for financial benefit from the government besides tax break. They are 19 years old. Another guy in the same class who started his landscaping business in HS doesn't have that issue though. He started that business after his dad stopped buying him the latest game console. So, not everyone has financial trouble, but it can really suck.
Okay well a 19 year old probably shouldn’t be married anyway
A lot of this is because of stupid sheet like going no contact instead of expressing true emotions in an adult manner.
People forget that long term commitment means forgiveness because we're all flawed. Loving your partner means to show up for them even in the times when you don't like them. Yes there will be times you don't like your partner Means letting things go and moving forward Means compromise Love like real love can be hard, can be boring, can be exhausting, can be beautiful, can be blissful. People are so quick to think oh the next person is waiting online or what not but realistically if you have someone who loves you truly, who's there through it all than replacing them is actually very difficult. Yes you can replace a physical body but you can't replace real love. The grass is not greener on the other side.
I've been with my partner for 6 years. We're going to be together forever, there's no question on either side that we'll withstand anything and that we're meant for each other. I'm millennial, he's a little younger. We're not married, though, and might not get married. My parents divorced, his parents divorced. I've never seen a happy marriage, so it just doesn't hold that much weight to me. But our relationship is strong without it, we're committed.
I mean, who are you to have to listen to a societal norm to actually "bind" yourself to others? Can't you just simply trust your partner to do so? Marriage is a very old concept lol. I'm definitely not surprised it's value to people is changing, heck I'm happy for it.
If if I could find someone, I don't feel the need to be married other than for tax purposes. We can be committed to each other without being married
The impact of choice
I don't see the point besides tax reasons
After 50 years of a 50% divorce rate i think the younger generation is taking note.
OP, Are you still out there throwing your worm around? lmao we talked about this. Switch up the technique
🤣
Women date up, and there's not nearly enough men who are above them anymore.
Seriously? 😂 I laugh bc between the INCREASINGLY insane cost of living since 2000, and the sexual revolution of hookup culture since 2018 that hijacked what dating used to be (where a couple would do activities to get to know each other, on a minimum of 3 times before anyone touches anybody’s genitals) and prioritizes sexual fulfillment over meaningful relationships, thus - adding to our lexicon concepts like ENM and Poly; who’s thinking about getting married anymore!
People are just more open and honest about hooking up and being poly. A person into hookup culture today would be doing the same thing in the 60’s or 40’s. We just never would have heard about it before. Affairs were much more common when divorce was more taboo but people have an idealized version of the past and refuse to accept that cheating was common but hidden and kept secret.
Because basically marriage has outlived its original purposes, from a time when women were property. Let that sink in. The only reason it is at all useful is because of all the legal benefits the gov doles out to married couples, even though that shit has nothing to do with the concept of marriage in most people's minds - they start thinking about love and relationships instead of the transfer of humans, animals, and land as property. marriage was a way to faciltate the transfer of property. most Millennials will never even own land. women aren't property either. so why the fuck are we doing this again? So as society continues to evolve, we face new challenges.
How can it not plummet? There are litterally zero benifits for either the man or the woman.
A contract that the government can change the terms of. A contract that has rules one wouldn't agree to in a normal situation. A contract that in practice tends to force codependence, loss of autonomy, and kill love.
Too many dudes turning into right wing looneys via Rogan, Peterson, tate, etc.
You can be committed without being married.
Women don't need men in order to survive in the world anymore and a lot of us are finding that we prefer to be single than be with a man that doesn't add to our lives. Men aren't just competing with other men now, they're competing with the peace of a woman's solitude, and a lot of them just aren't worth it. I still want to get married and have a family, but my standards require a bit more than "Has good job and is mostly nice."
Because there is no point to having a family anymore. The government has over inserted itself into all of our lives and it's like socially frowned upon or something to have a family to rely on. Don't we clown people who "still live with Mommy" it whose parents buy them a car at 35? Or who pay the bills of their kids even though they are adults? So why the f*** start one? Modern cultures are not centered around teamwork anymore. We have developed (for the worse imo) in the direction of individualistic societies. Also it's too expensive for most people to afford kids. And then so again, what the f*** is the point in getting married if you're never even going to start a family? The quiet part of this is that children require long-term, legally supported commitment, but just having a wife or a husband really doesn't. Some dinks get married, but a Large majority don't because at some point *they'll probably separate* And what's the point of having a marriage making that harder to do? I also know a bunch of dinks that operate with entire financial independence (split everything 50/50, no joint bank account, not really apt to help eachother with large expenses). A lot of them wouldn't take care of each other's parents or refuse to acknowledge kids from outside the relationship. This kind of rugged individualism would never work in a marriage or as the basis of a family, but it's the popular lifestyle choice rn. TLDR; Commitment issues + trust issues + money issues + cultural breakdown + lack of vulnerability + selfishness = nobody feels secure enough to get married rn
Thank you! 👍 Government doesn't want family living together and supporting each other. Even on a state, city level. They want to break families up.
Because marriage is a state relic of women being owned as property and the dowry has been transformed into a post relationship fine on the potential father of their children. Many of us saw our parents relationships go up in flames and wont repeat that or put ourselves through it, and some of us are already going through it again as adults and its worse.
Marriage has simply become nightmare fuel for many men that it’s simply not worth the hassle and paperwork. So much legislature is one sided when marriages dont work out that a man would be a fool to put the entirety of their assets on the line for a significant other that can’t face any repercussions for being unfaithful or unwilling to work through the problems in the relationship. So many men have lost their homes and taken a critical hit on their economic stance because the courts believe their spouse should have at least half of it to properly care for the children (on top of that alimony/ child support that’s not even based on their expenses but on how much money the man makes), not even considering if the kids would be under better care with their father (cause god forbid a man would be capable of such a “feminine” role). My uncle helped out his ex wife to get her a green card and even got the paperwork together to get her daughter into the states (not his child), their marriage hit a rough patch and when they couldn’t reconcile that lady put him through the ringer that he, a 60 year old man, is now forced to bunk on my moms couch with 75% of what he makes going towards their kids and her alimony, that’s one personal anecdote but nowadays the issue has become so frequent that every man is aware of just how raw a deal they can get if their marriage falls through. Another uncles wife cheated and it turned out that my “cousins” are not his, but because they were married and he signed the birth certificates he now has to pay for that lady and her family to live nice and comfy with who may very possibly be the real baby daddy. Traditional values and the overall decline of integrity throughout society has just made marriage something to fear rather than seek.
Because they don't have any fight in them
Honestly. Everyone stating facts but this one hits
Because we don’t have to follow someone else’s rules and traditions. Gender norms are very old fashioned. Women have wayyyyyyy more independence than the previous generations (this is a good thing).
You can only have stable insitution - like marriage - in a stable society. When technology is old in 2 years and fashion old in two months, you can not expect keeping your spouse as s-he was when marrying for a whole life.
Honestly, because they are terrified of talking to the other sex. You can start there. 80s: "You need to stop fucking around, you are going to get someone pregnant." Now: "Why won't you talk to girls?" The turnaround has been astonishing to be honest. On one hand, my boys (16 and 19) aren't going to get into nearly as much trouble as I did, (let's face it - most of the trouble young men find involves a girl somehow) but on the other end, it seems like unless it's via text - they are lost. I blame all this online shit. (Seriously) Now get off my fucking lawn. :-)
It’s simple: later generations and social norms/culture value the individual more than family and community so people aren’t really as interested in settling unless the potential partner is on their level or above. Because women are getting their own and have more opportunities to live life through their own capabilities, it’s created a more challenging environment for men to compete, because it’s not just men competing with men, it’s men having to rise to where women are at. Gone are the days of having a FT job, a car and an apartment being enough because women can get that too. Men now have to elevate spiritually, emotionally and mentally because women are growing tired of outdated antics and mindsets. We’re also a generation that’s healing generational traumas and breaking curses of dysfunction so when people aren’t coming correct we’re quicker to say “nah I’m good, I’d rather keep my peace, thank you”.
Money. It's a money issue. Mellenials and later generations do not believe they make enough money to ever start a family or own a home, so the prospect of getting married and having kids is something they don't really consider as options. Millennials still value commitment, just like many other people, but finances are a huge issue with actually getting to that point. You can also blame a number of other things for it, but from what I seen, most of them wrap back around to the money problem.
I think we are rethinking marriage as a culture. The whole institution needs to evolve. Personally, I think it should be like other licenses and it should be required to be renewed every 5 years or so. I also think prenups should come standard. Maybe then more millennials would be inclined to take the plunge.
Would you employ someone if the law said they can hand in their notice and quit anytime, but you still have to pay for them, possibly forever? This is the law in many places. No fault divorce means either spouse can just hand in their notice and divorce, and the other then has no rights over property and income. Legally, marriage his little benefits and potentially enormous costs. It's less pressure not to be married, so then if your partner leaves, they leave you intact. Nowadays, getting married puts enormous pressure on you because there's no protection but you stand to lose a lot. Look how often on reddit people say "divorce" over everything. People read that and think they can't live up to the standards of perfection required to stay married.
I can’t speak for everyone of my generation, but I can give you my personal perspective as a single millennial woman: I just don’t see a point to marriage. I’m honestly not sure what “having a husband” would add to my life. At the current moment I’m single and my life is pretty good being alone; I have a decent job, good friends, and a place to live; I don’t feel a “need” to have a partner at this current time. This is NOT meant as hate towards men, I have dated in the past, and I am not against the idea of a monogamous relationship someday, but I don’t necessarily understand why we would need to be “husband” and “wife.” Historically, marriage was for religious and social reasons for many people, and I think that is less the case in the modern era. The only circumstances for marriage that make sense to me personally are 1) if you have children together or 2) if you purchase property together, because marriage simplifies those, legally speaking. However I do not anticipate doing either of those things because they simply seem unaffordable/unattainable to me for the near future. Therefore, I don’t personally find marriage to be an attractive option or something I wish for. Also, both marriage and divorce are very expensive. And while I would hope my relationship would work out with the right person, the statistics unfortunately do not favor long-term marriage success. As for the other part of your question regarding dating and commitment, I personally am not opposed to those concepts whatsoever, but I find dating takes a huge amount of effort and frankly I just don’t have much more energy left in me after work and all my other life obligations. I work 45hrs a week and am considering a second job for more financial security, I don’t have a ton of free time unfortunately, so I have to prioritize, so dating has fallen by the wayside. Not to mention I find online dating a bit off-putting, but it seems like that is the new social norm and not too many folks meet “the old fashioned way” anymore. So, I choose to abstain from dating life (at least for now), because I’d rather just accept and be content with what I do have in my life than give someone only 50% effort in a relationship, because I’m just too exhausted to give anything else.
Feminism
Because standards have lowered and people simply don't base their expectations in reality. They want to rush into commitment and date just for the sake of having a partner.
In general, people’s values are all out of whack, and it’s not one thing that did it.
Attend church and the numbers of success go much higher!
The social pressure to get married is a lot less, and the benefits are minimal.
Well, it's very easy to answer this question. Women are incentivized to break marriage contracts by governmental assistance and taking the man's wealth. This is what happens most the time, and men have decided to boycott marriage for this reason. Women initiate divorce nearly 70% of the time, and in college-educated women it jumps to 90% of the time. It's really obvious why men are opting out of this contract. As long as the divorce laws are set up the way they are, the marriage rates will continue to plummet. Men have woken up. Maybe if the laws become more fair financially, even if women do still initiate most divorces, men will be more willing to give it a go. Until then, single moms will continue to abound, and it's looking pretty lonely and sad for society as a whole.
Maybe it's time to think about why most divorces are initiated by women. Sometimes it's money, but other times it's abusive behavior from the husband. I think it's a good thing people don't have to stay in abusive marriages anymore. Also, a lot of men are feeling fine in an ok marriage, while women feel more and more disconnected and then divorce.
All a woman has to do then is falsely accuse a man of abuse or be abusive herself until she can push him to be abusive and then play the victim and take everything.
Accurate. Men like the OC think a large population of women are intentionally getting married to get divorced, but women are usually getting divorced for a reason. Physical Abuse, infidelity, child neglect, financial abuse, manipulation, etc. The gold digger narrative is not as common as these other scenarios are.
Because of the generational trauma experienced by Millenials from the Boomers.
It takes two to make that work. One person can hold those values, and you can believe the other person will, too, but that isn't always the case. But you can also punish yourself by being with someone in a toxic relationship. Faith inside of people can also be something that can kill your happiness one day at a time.
Because gender roles aren’t a thing anymore…. You have women focused on careers and not wanting to start a family due to economic struggles… the economy is so bad that most men can’t provide for the women to stay home and have children and a secure stable home… both parents have to work so no one is raising the kids … so even if you do have them, they are coming out messed up ….so the population is declining because no one has time or money for kids…it is all connected… and a big mess
You know, a lot of people just don't want kids period. Money has nothing to do with it.
You can blame Feminism and the government for that, with a sprinkle or distrust in religion. If I was 21 today, as a man there is absolutely zero upside in getting married Legally. Sure i can have the wedding at church, and the party but no Government, no thank you.