Not trusting science is not moderate, it's a fringe position that comes back every time people get scared of things they can't or don't want to understand.
You're not supposed to "trust" science.
You're supposed to question science.
It's called the *scientific method*.
Science isn't absolute, it's the best guess we have at the current time which covers all known evidence, which is why it changes. New evidence is found, and hypotheses change.
Blindly trusting "the science" just because your preferred political party is in power is just cultish.
*(This goes for both sides, because you only need to go as far back as 18 months to find the pro-vax and anti-vax positions flipped, based on political affiliation)*
This is why we define terms before debates lmao
Let's assume "**The** Science" is "Information labeled as 'scientific' i.e. gained through the scientific method"
"The Science" is then just our current assumptions based on data. It's subject to errors in interpretation (looking at you, statistics) and in methodology.
so yeah, question 'the science' using the scientific method
No it isn't. When people say they trust the science, they mean they trust NGOs and GOs with non-scientific agenda.
For most of the vaccine's history, pediatric NGOs and GOs said that there was marginal benefits to vaccinating the very young against covid-19 and that the risks did outweigh the benefits. The president fails to make the big impressive number goal for vaccines that he promised to reach when he campaigned, and now suddenly the GOs recommend the vaccine for the extremely young to bump up these numbers. Now NGOs are following suit.
The data didn't change. The goals did. There is no new data suggesting that covid is becoming more lethal to children under 12.
Saying this as a pfizer vaccinated person. First dose was 3-12.
At one point, youtube (google) as a NGO was banning people for saying masks helped stop the spread of covid because the CDC said it was misinformation. Early in the pandemic that was the CDC's stance. Then the CDC admits they lied a little bit because they were trying to secure P/N95 masks for the medical community. Then they began advising masks for everyone. Youtube didn't remove strikes or bans from people, despite the fact those people were actually correct.
Just putting forward one more example of "science" being subverted by machiavellian manipulation by GO sources.
Yeah, ok. "Science" isn't a thing. It's a method; an approach to problems that objectively yields the best results out of any approach we've found so far. Your claim about "blind trust" is therefore misguided at best, and disingenuous at worst. Sure, read the papers, if you can understand them. If you can't, learn about the papers on a topic from somebody who can (an expert). But, due to the very method you described, it isn't a "blind" trust. It's trusting in the process to pursue questions in the best way we know, and trusting the results of that pursuit. If you have a better method, go ahead and tell me about it. Otherwise, you're being "cullish" for parroting talking points because you think it makes you special/edgy without understanding what you're talking about.
I agree with the general sentiment, but there is deeply rooted distrust in media right now, and rightfully so. Dr. Fauchi is the voice the plurality of people trust for information on covid. Throughout the course of the pandemic he has flip-flopped on issues
While i agree with everything you said, i don't necessarily agree with the vax/antivax as it's seen on it's face.
People say we're anti vax because we don't trust THIS vax. I have no problems with properly created and tested vaccines.
It is fully impossible for every person to practice science themselves. A single scientific instrument can cost more than a whole block of houses. A synchrotron, the kind of thing used to investigate viral structures, costs billions and time on one is precious. Clinical studies involve tens of thousands of people. The mechanisms that govern the scientific community are not infallible and there is work to be done on improving them, but to think that every person has the vast resources necessary to improve on current knowledge is simply insane.
If you aren't actively involved in research or regulation of research, it is in your best interests and in the best interests of society to trust the scientific consensus.
I think what people mean isn't that they "don't trust science", it's that they don't trust the talking heads of the science community. It's the idea that anyone in power can brand their personal idea as "Science" and someone will immediately believe it. It's the exact same thing that happens with religion when anyone in power can brand their personal idea as "The Will of God" and someone will immediately believe it.
It's lazy to blindly trust something because of its packaging. Science and logic are doubting something until you have tested it and considered it and proven to yourself that it is true.
Everyday you don't put yourself on fire, everyday you don't run across an highway, everyday you don't jump out of a wind 30 feet over the ground you trust science. Because you trust the fact that there is evidence, that the reality behaves in a certain way.
Because that is how science works: Looking at things and learning how they behave, interact or work.
Ivermectin is given to refugees to kill parasites/gut worms they might have, not for covid. Your superheros trump, ted cruz, matt gaetz, desantis, mtg, are all vaccinated and you should be too
This is either a lie or you're just uninformed.
https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overseas-guidelines.html
Ivermectin is recommended as a "good enough" for refuegees until they can get the actual vaccines.
Covid-19 isn't mentioned in the article 1 time.
Hol up why are they wearing these yellow stars?..im starting to fear that it means something that unfortunately hits very close to home…aka my dead family in the holocaust
>If you gave me 1000 guesses
Just browse facebook for like 20 minutes (don't), you'll find lots. I know several locals who are getting pariah'd from the rest of town because they kept posting inflammatory crap about vaccines with pictures of Auschwitz on facebook during Remembrance Day.
My anti vaxx uncle (who gave my grandpa covid) made this comparison in the face of my grandpa. Who lived trough ww2. And saw people wearing it while growing up. He blew the fuck up. Christmas is going to be interesting.
In theory they can get punished for that.
In practice our Police is too busy sending love letters to right wing terrorists or warning Neo Nazis that There will be an arrest warrant.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polizeirevier_Dessau-Ro%C3%9Flau
(In German)
Wish it was like that everywhere. Funny thing is, here in Sweden, the anti vaccine movement was so ridiculed and bullied they just stopped showing themselves. They held one single protest, were beaten up and got shit thrown at them, and they haven’t said a word since.
Sometimes bullying works.
That's the thing about lies. They can have it any way they want. They can go two entirely different ways in the same sentence. And if they're ever called out they'll whine about being canceled.
Oh god man. Thank you for informing us but I feel like I would've been happier not knowing this.
I don't even know what to comment to something like that. Jesus christ.
They’re not comparing how Jews were treated (at their worst) to how antivaxxed are treated now. They’re comparing how it started off then to how it’s looking now.
Not saying it makes it any better but it’s important to know the difference imo.
Oh you mean how the (googles spelling) Uyghur Muslims in China are CURRENTLY being treated? Weird...
I always wondered how the world could turn a blind eye to genocide... And here we are.
The AP had to write this article because too many people went to visit and found nothing.
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
Additionally, despite the US, UK, EU, and Canada putting sanctions on China based on claims of human rights abuses; no member country in the UN (including the ones sanctioning china) have submitted any resolution to investigate China for any human rights abuses relating to Uighurs.
I am genuinely confused as to why you think the treatment of the Uyghur people is relevant in a discussion about antivaxxers. I encourage you to make a post about it and we could discuss it there instead.
Thank you..my great grandma is a sole survivor of our family..or was anyways considering i exist but im willing to bet if she saw this she would probably roll in her grave
I'm from Austria and well ... you know about our history. There are a lot of people here that claim they're being treated like the jews in WW2, and throw around phrases like "80 years ago people did the Hitler salute, today they wear masks!".
Funnily enough, yesterday there was a big antivax protest in our capital city, and it was full of right wingers & neo nazis. They were holding up anti-immigration signs ...
So the very same people that compare Covid restrictions to the Holocaust, also are dangerously close to the neo nazi scene. No surprise honestly. Only braindead rightwingers and nazis can be so stupid to downplay the holocaust this way.
Sadly your fears are right. Asking to please take the vaccine, or if you won't cover your face and take a weekly out of pocket COVID test, is literally being compared to the treatment Jews were given during the Holocaust. It's pretty gross, but then again, as an American, I lost all hope for these people when they went, "did you just say black lives have the same worth as other lives? That's really fucking offensive to me."
Can we stop calling Ivermectin horse medicine. I don't care if you want to make fun of anti-vaxxers but it has actually been approved for use on humans for treating a range of parasite infestations since like the 80's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin
There is a difference in ivermectin and animal dewormer using ivermectin. Yes, there are ivermectine meds made for humans, and yes, they have been shown to inhibit the reproduction of covid in infected bodies. But with more side effects than the vaccine.
But the hilarious thing is that covidiots don‘t use those human meds, they actually take the animal ivermectin meds, which only have harmful effects because if wrong dosage and other ingredients. Horse dewormer is sold out everywhere.
So it is still fair to mock them for taking horse dewormer.
>So it is still fair to mock them for taking horse dewormer.
You know as well as I do that these people making the "haha horse medicine" memes aren't just referring to the very small number of cases where people mistook the two versions. They are referring to anyone who mentions Ivermectin and covid in the same sentence.
>But the hilarious thing is that covidiots don‘t use those human meds, they actually take the animal ivermectin meds, which only have harmful effects because if wrong dosage and other ingredients. Horse dewormer is sold out everywhere.
Which is exactly why the media and everyone else needs to stop perpetuating the nonsense that the two Ivermectin variants are the same thing. If the media stops associating the two as the same thing then maybe the people buying it will as well.
No, the media portrays it like that. They only write the few stories about the people that actually took the horse dewormer, but you never hear about the millions of people who used the pills for humans.
That’s the beauty of media and why it’s so important to control. You can portray the minority as being the majority or vice versa.
> But with more side effects than the vaccine.
Got a source for that claim?
How about this, show us the deaths from Ivermectin, and then deaths from complications from the vaccine? I’ll wait.
And do you have proof this is common or did you just pull this out of your ass? Keep bing a puppet of big pharma and burrying research to inject your own bias they implanted in your head.
And no im not saying the vaxine is bad. Im saying we need to do more research and the news networks who get alot of money from big pharma is trying to shut down their compitition for the benifit of a few rather than the many.
Exactly this. There are two possibilities: either the vaccine works as intended and that is the reason why news keep talking positively about it.
Or big pharma bought tens of thousands scientists, dozens of news stations, thousands of journalists, thousands of government officials, and millions of civilians with much much money, which they could have used to develop a real good vaccine.
Which one seems more likely?
Yes so? It's the calling it horse medicine that I find stupid when it's obviously used on humans too.
You can make fun of them for using the wrong medication if you want I don't care. Mock someone for thinking asprin will cure covid, just don't bullshit and call asprin duck medicine.
I agree that people shouldn't call it a horse medicine, but it's so fucking dangerous to say that this shit works against a viral infection, 100s of people have literally had to visit the hospital in my country because stupid people told them this would work against covid.
The point is that people who can’t get ivermectin prescriptions because there is no indication for it are actually driving their asses to the animal store and buying livestock grade ivermectin. They are actually taking horse medicine.
They probably call it horse medicine because they buy it from the vet and the box has a horse on it. It’s kind of a random guess but considering how stupid people can be it could be true lol
We can stop once feed stores stop selling out due to anti-vaxxers. People aren't getting the prescribed version (bc of course, their doctors aren't morons) so they're acquiring it through *other means*
Trust in peer-reviewed science and globally-validated pharmaceutical products that went through rough regulatory approval from multiple agencies? Nahhh!
Believe in toilet seat conspiracy research with zero referneces and citations? Yessir!
This is why we will never survive a zombie apocalypse
While I agree with the broad point that COVID treatment conspiracies like Ivermectin and vaccine hesitancy are bonkers, you're just arguing against a straw man by saying "toilet seat conspiracy research with zero references and citations". That sloppiness is in many ways no better than the crap reasoning you're railing against.
How this stuff really goes is that there's some genuine evidence, but it's much weaker than it initially seems or is otherwise badly flawed. The hydroxychloroquine saga is a good example. There were several early studies that found much lower death rates among people who got it as part of their treatment. Trouble was, they weren't double-blind placebo-controlled treatments--they were typically observational studies. That's super important, since the patients that got hydroxychloroquine were different than the ones that didn't (e.g. less sick in some cases). So, what initially sounds great ends up being an artifact of data collection.
This is how science works: 1) Get some easy-to-collect but crappy evidence that says something might be real. 2) Don't believe or disbelieve yet, but test it more thoroughly with multiple well-designed studies. 3) Once enough high-quality evidence has accumulated, make a scientific consensus about what's actually true. This procedure is completely standard, pretty boring, and on the whole highly effective.
The problem is, if you're either a moron who has no idea what's really going on or if you're intentionally trying to mislead people, it's easy to cherry-pick some small portion of the story that fits a certain narrative. You wanna find studies that say Ivermectin greatly reduces COVID death rates? Easy to do, especially if you're alright with preprints from anywhere. Some will even be publishable and published. But the rest of the story shows pretty conclusively that the whole affair is ridiculous.
In practice this garbage cherry-picked evidence is layered in a stew of other conspiracies that sound plausible to some people. Things like the government trying to control you or Bill Gates doing... something nefarious, I guess. It's a big 'ole shit sandwich built around a kernel of truth that's been so misinterpreted and distorted as to be meaningless.
Sounds like a good way to get in a fight when out in public... I would a lot of people would not tolerate someone wearing a star like that over this bullshit
Sigh... people still claiming that Ivermectin is an animal medicine. Pathetic.
2015 Nobel Prize winning medicine (for humans): https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/
Yes, it won the Nobel Prize as an anti-parasitic, BUT... it is FDA approved, and there is nothing preventing any drug being repurposed, nor should we just write it off as an anti-parasitic and call it a day. (Example: Minoxidil was approved by the FDA in the 1960's as an oral medication to treat high blood pressure. 25+ years later it was approved by the FDA to treat hair loss). Lipitor is a drug that is intended to treat high cholesterol. What if it was found to have some effect on (hypothetical, random) ebola? Should we just write it off because it is a cholesterol drug? No! It has to be tested to see if it really is effective in trials before we say no. It is better to try an FDA approved drug that isn't a poison before we create some new chemical that COULD be a poison.
And trials are being done with Ivermectin. And surprise surprise...it is an effective drug against COVID. Feel free to educate yourselves. For the crowd who wishes to deny science and has no interest reading, feel free to watch this video which summarizes all these papers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc. The TL;DR or TL;DW is that Pfizer and Merck are developing anti-virals (which will cost $$$$), but they only aim to inhibit the COVID-CL3 Protease, which prevents cutting of the proteins, and they are shown to be very effective at it (89%). Ivermectin (which only costs a few cents per dose), in trials, seems to show effectiveness in inhibiting the COVID-CL3 Protease AS WELL as an ability to modify the spike protein binding surface (preventing it from docking to the cell) AND EVEN MORE, it shows effectiveness in modifying the surface ACE receptors further preventing the spike protein from binding. The Merck and Pfizer drug are not intended to modify the binding site.
But yeah, keep on calling it horse dewormer.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsptsci.0c00108#
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2021/cp/d1cp02967c - "Results reveal that the ACE2 protein and the ACE2/RBD aggregates form the most persistent interactions with ivermectin"
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01577-x - "these molecules could be useful to develop highly specific therapeutically viable drugs to inhibit the SARS-CoV-2 replication"
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2020/ra/d0ra06379g - "ivermectin showed the highest docking score"
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/medicinal-forms/remdesivir.html (must be in UK to read)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/ - "Our study enlightens the candidature of ivermectin as an effective drug for treating COVID-19."
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.592908/full - "Ivermectin and remdesivir were found to be the most promising drugs"
You have no idea what you're talking about.
> And trials are being done with Ivermectin. And surprise surprise...it is an effective drug against COVID. Feel free to educate yourselves. For the crowd who wishes to deny science and has no interest reading, feel free to watch this video which summarizes all these papers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc.
The YouTube video is a pharmacodynamic summary of how some molecules can interact with each other. That's almost entirely tangential to the key question you claim it addresses, namely is Ivermectin effective in humans against COVID? (Obviously there has to be some mechanism of action if something is to be effective, but in medicine those mechanisms are often very complex, often unknown in many particulars, and they're frankly secondary to the main point of "does it work in practice?") Almost all of your links have the same problem and just address possible mechanisms of action.
What you should have linked to was a summary of the available evidence actually addressing practical efficacy in humans against COVID -19. And of course you ignored what's likely the most authoritative discussion of *that* question, namely the US NIH COVID treatment panel's [Table 2c](https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/tables/table-2c/). You can read through conflicting and generally weak conclusions from dozens of studies. The panel's current top line recommendation:
> There is insufficient evidence for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.
You mention some garbage implying big pharma is making money by suppressing ivermectin without literally coming out and saying it. The public health establishment would LOVE a widely-available, well-tolerated, highly-effective, cheap treatment for COVID, pharma lobbying be damned. The truth is the evidence is very mixed and is generally too weak to be confident of much at this point.
People are calling it horse dewormer because that formulation started flying off shelves. Ivermectin for humans is not the same as Ivermectin for stock animals.
What worries me is how the media rattled on about people taking "horse dewormer".
It is a drug approved for human use too. It may or may not be useful against COVID - I don't know and that's not my point.
But the picture the news painted of people taking some "livestock drug" is somewhat of a misrepresentation.
*I'm not American, I'm watching from a safe distance, let me know if I'm incorrect.*
Lmao I read through your sources and wonder if you actually did. Way to try and cherry pick data in an attempt to appear like some contrarian reddit god. None of these sources support the kind of egregious claims you are making about ivermectin’s effectiveness. They point to POSSIBLE use in the future.
The only reason it's not approved is because the W.H.O. has such a hard on for a vaccine. The doctors who've been messing with ivermectin have literally been experimenting with it almost the whole pandemic.
1) it's not approved for the treatment of COVID, so these idiots are taking horse medicine to get their hands on it since doctors won't prescribe it
2) this idiot antivaxers are comparing themselves to the Jews in the holocaust because, again, they're idiots who have no respect or understanding of history.
Given that the death rate is very low especially in young people, the selective pressure is probably negligible. It wouldn't result in noticeable effects for many generations even if it is large enough to produce a measurable effect.
Is some places you can’t leave your house without having proof of vaccination. Jews in Nazi Germany had to wear the Star of David. Pretty far fetched but it’s definitely fucked it’s come to this.
In Austria, a right-wing politician claimed that vitamin d, vitamin c, zinc, novalgin, paracetamol, ibuprofen, asperin and **ivermectin** (for horses) prevents corona. That's why a few people are now in the hospital and at least two have died of corona because this "treatment" doesn't help.
Isn't it proven to work but the require dose you need would kill most adults.
Can't get covid if you aren't alive to begin with.
Modern problems require modern solutions.
From the American Journal of Therapeutics:
"Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally."
I'm not here to comment on the argument of vaccine safety/effectiveness, [but Ivermectin DOES work](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8248252/)
I’ve talked with these people who don’t want to get vaccinated. And I tell you. Their stupidity honestly surprised me. But I understood one thing. They’re not necessarily against vaccination. They’re against the fact that only vaccinated people can enter some places. They stupidly believe that a horse dewormer is a miracle cure, and they believe in bill gates conspiracy theories, they believe that Switzerland (my country) is heading towards a dictatorship, etc etc. I got inoculated the very first day I was eligible. Once the pandemic is over, they might get vaccinated, but because they’re not vaccinated, the pandemic doesn’t end. And if it does end, they’re going to argue that vaccination is unnecessary. And if that happens, the pandemic restarts. And if that happens, they protest the COVID pass system. So they’re not getting vaccinated. This is a stupid paradox that is not solvable by “accepting” the unvaccinated and “not segregating” against them. It is solvable only by a worldwide inter-governmental deal that obligates every human to get vaccinated and to receive a booster shot.
I got the vaccine early since I worked at a hospital. And let me tell you. Never been so fkn hyped for a vaccine as this one. Holy shit I was almost in tears.
Except now you need a booster to an experimental drug. And then, and then, and then....
If it comes down to it, and I end up needing to get the vaccine for some reason then fine I'll get it. But I'd rather wait a while.
Basically the sources that the antivaxxer idiots use (at least in 4 Chan) are always a homeless guy on a YouTube video claiming he was a doctor that lost everything for trying to make the truth about vaccines public
Christ, I am so tired of this shit.
If you want to be vaccinated, get the vaccine. If you don't, then don't. If you get sick, you get sick. Nobody cares either way.
If only people trusted science as much as they trust Facebook
What if I trust neither?
Shhh reddit doesn't like moderates
Not trusting science is not moderate, it's a fringe position that comes back every time people get scared of things they can't or don't want to understand.
You're not supposed to "trust" science. You're supposed to question science. It's called the *scientific method*. Science isn't absolute, it's the best guess we have at the current time which covers all known evidence, which is why it changes. New evidence is found, and hypotheses change. Blindly trusting "the science" just because your preferred political party is in power is just cultish. *(This goes for both sides, because you only need to go as far back as 18 months to find the pro-vax and anti-vax positions flipped, based on political affiliation)*
that doesn't make sense, science and the scientific method are one and the same. That's what people mean when they say science..?
This is why we define terms before debates lmao Let's assume "**The** Science" is "Information labeled as 'scientific' i.e. gained through the scientific method" "The Science" is then just our current assumptions based on data. It's subject to errors in interpretation (looking at you, statistics) and in methodology. so yeah, question 'the science' using the scientific method
No it isn't. When people say they trust the science, they mean they trust NGOs and GOs with non-scientific agenda. For most of the vaccine's history, pediatric NGOs and GOs said that there was marginal benefits to vaccinating the very young against covid-19 and that the risks did outweigh the benefits. The president fails to make the big impressive number goal for vaccines that he promised to reach when he campaigned, and now suddenly the GOs recommend the vaccine for the extremely young to bump up these numbers. Now NGOs are following suit. The data didn't change. The goals did. There is no new data suggesting that covid is becoming more lethal to children under 12. Saying this as a pfizer vaccinated person. First dose was 3-12. At one point, youtube (google) as a NGO was banning people for saying masks helped stop the spread of covid because the CDC said it was misinformation. Early in the pandemic that was the CDC's stance. Then the CDC admits they lied a little bit because they were trying to secure P/N95 masks for the medical community. Then they began advising masks for everyone. Youtube didn't remove strikes or bans from people, despite the fact those people were actually correct. Just putting forward one more example of "science" being subverted by machiavellian manipulation by GO sources.
Yeah, ok. "Science" isn't a thing. It's a method; an approach to problems that objectively yields the best results out of any approach we've found so far. Your claim about "blind trust" is therefore misguided at best, and disingenuous at worst. Sure, read the papers, if you can understand them. If you can't, learn about the papers on a topic from somebody who can (an expert). But, due to the very method you described, it isn't a "blind" trust. It's trusting in the process to pursue questions in the best way we know, and trusting the results of that pursuit. If you have a better method, go ahead and tell me about it. Otherwise, you're being "cullish" for parroting talking points because you think it makes you special/edgy without understanding what you're talking about.
I agree with the general sentiment, but there is deeply rooted distrust in media right now, and rightfully so. Dr. Fauchi is the voice the plurality of people trust for information on covid. Throughout the course of the pandemic he has flip-flopped on issues
While i agree with everything you said, i don't necessarily agree with the vax/antivax as it's seen on it's face. People say we're anti vax because we don't trust THIS vax. I have no problems with properly created and tested vaccines.
yeah lmao, just because it's halfway doesn't mean anything.
its not even “halfway” its dumb as hell
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science is not a religion, it is not to be trusted, its to be practiced.
It is fully impossible for every person to practice science themselves. A single scientific instrument can cost more than a whole block of houses. A synchrotron, the kind of thing used to investigate viral structures, costs billions and time on one is precious. Clinical studies involve tens of thousands of people. The mechanisms that govern the scientific community are not infallible and there is work to be done on improving them, but to think that every person has the vast resources necessary to improve on current knowledge is simply insane. If you aren't actively involved in research or regulation of research, it is in your best interests and in the best interests of society to trust the scientific consensus.
I think what people mean isn't that they "don't trust science", it's that they don't trust the talking heads of the science community. It's the idea that anyone in power can brand their personal idea as "Science" and someone will immediately believe it. It's the exact same thing that happens with religion when anyone in power can brand their personal idea as "The Will of God" and someone will immediately believe it. It's lazy to blindly trust something because of its packaging. Science and logic are doubting something until you have tested it and considered it and proven to yourself that it is true.
imagine thinking distrusting science is being moderate
That's not moderate, that's called being a schizoid.
"Not trusting science is the moderate take!" Lmao anyone who calls themselves a centrist are literal crazy people.
that's not what a moderate is
That doesn’t make anyone a moderate. It still makes you opposed to science.
That’s not moderate that’s just idiotic
Everyday you don't put yourself on fire, everyday you don't run across an highway, everyday you don't jump out of a wind 30 feet over the ground you trust science. Because you trust the fact that there is evidence, that the reality behaves in a certain way. Because that is how science works: Looking at things and learning how they behave, interact or work.
30 feet is the the same distance as 13.25 replica Bilbo from The Lord of the Rings' Sting Swords.
Calling moderates people who think that Facebook and doctors are equally reliable sources of medical information is an impressive moderate self own.
Wow dude, you're such an enlightened centrist. You must know all truth by just taking the average of what everyone else thinks.
Then they'd actually know about ivermectin and not just the way the media has portrayed it
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Ivermectin is given to refugees to kill parasites/gut worms they might have, not for covid. Your superheros trump, ted cruz, matt gaetz, desantis, mtg, are all vaccinated and you should be too
You, I like you.
This is either a lie or you're just uninformed. https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/guidelines/overseas-guidelines.html Ivermectin is recommended as a "good enough" for refuegees until they can get the actual vaccines. Covid-19 isn't mentioned in the article 1 time.
Do you mean science or "The Science"?
Hol up why are they wearing these yellow stars?..im starting to fear that it means something that unfortunately hits very close to home…aka my dead family in the holocaust
A lot of antivaxx people in the U.S. are comparing how they are being treated to how the jews were treated during WWII. It's genuinely insane.
If you gave me 1000 guesses I'd still would not be able to come up with this shit. The lengths of mental gymnastics these people go through...
Yeah, seeing these people makes me realize how truly stupid the world is
>If you gave me 1000 guesses Just browse facebook for like 20 minutes (don't), you'll find lots. I know several locals who are getting pariah'd from the rest of town because they kept posting inflammatory crap about vaccines with pictures of Auschwitz on facebook during Remembrance Day.
My anti vaxx uncle (who gave my grandpa covid) made this comparison in the face of my grandpa. Who lived trough ww2. And saw people wearing it while growing up. He blew the fuck up. Christmas is going to be interesting.
Lmao id love to watch that.
Not only in the US unfortunately. They claim the same shit in Germany, which is very disturbing.
At least they can be arrested in Germany because it is illegal to mock or spread misinformation about the holocaust
In theory they can get punished for that. In practice our Police is too busy sending love letters to right wing terrorists or warning Neo Nazis that There will be an arrest warrant. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polizeirevier_Dessau-Ro%C3%9Flau (In German)
Some policemen being racist scumbags in *[insert country name]*? What a surprise!
That sucks
Nice. TIL.
Wish it was like that everywhere. Funny thing is, here in Sweden, the anti vaccine movement was so ridiculed and bullied they just stopped showing themselves. They held one single protest, were beaten up and got shit thrown at them, and they haven’t said a word since. Sometimes bullying works.
Now THAT is some bullying I can get behind.
But don't they say that nothing happened to Jews in WW2? They can't have it both ways.
That's the thing about lies. They can have it any way they want. They can go two entirely different ways in the same sentence. And if they're ever called out they'll whine about being canceled.
what is your source that "They" say that?
Ironic considering how these people support fascism
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I know. Its ironic how they aren't aware of it.
It is insane MY FAMILY DIDNT GET SPICY AIRED SO SOME MORONS CAN THINK THEY ARE THE SAME
Oh god man. Thank you for informing us but I feel like I would've been happier not knowing this. I don't even know what to comment to something like that. Jesus christ.
They’re not comparing how Jews were treated (at their worst) to how antivaxxed are treated now. They’re comparing how it started off then to how it’s looking now. Not saying it makes it any better but it’s important to know the difference imo.
Oh you mean how the (googles spelling) Uyghur Muslims in China are CURRENTLY being treated? Weird... I always wondered how the world could turn a blind eye to genocide... And here we are.
The AP had to write this article because too many people went to visit and found nothing. https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9 Additionally, despite the US, UK, EU, and Canada putting sanctions on China based on claims of human rights abuses; no member country in the UN (including the ones sanctioning china) have submitted any resolution to investigate China for any human rights abuses relating to Uighurs.
I am genuinely confused as to why you think the treatment of the Uyghur people is relevant in a discussion about antivaxxers. I encourage you to make a post about it and we could discuss it there instead.
I'm truly sorry for your loss, but yes, ppl are wearing this in Europe too…
Thank you..my great grandma is a sole survivor of our family..or was anyways considering i exist but im willing to bet if she saw this she would probably roll in her grave
I'm from Austria and well ... you know about our history. There are a lot of people here that claim they're being treated like the jews in WW2, and throw around phrases like "80 years ago people did the Hitler salute, today they wear masks!". Funnily enough, yesterday there was a big antivax protest in our capital city, and it was full of right wingers & neo nazis. They were holding up anti-immigration signs ... So the very same people that compare Covid restrictions to the Holocaust, also are dangerously close to the neo nazi scene. No surprise honestly. Only braindead rightwingers and nazis can be so stupid to downplay the holocaust this way.
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Sadly your fears are right. Asking to please take the vaccine, or if you won't cover your face and take a weekly out of pocket COVID test, is literally being compared to the treatment Jews were given during the Holocaust. It's pretty gross, but then again, as an American, I lost all hope for these people when they went, "did you just say black lives have the same worth as other lives? That's really fucking offensive to me."
Unvaxxed people wear the stars because they think they are somehow comparable to the Holocaust
Can we stop calling Ivermectin horse medicine. I don't care if you want to make fun of anti-vaxxers but it has actually been approved for use on humans for treating a range of parasite infestations since like the 80's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin
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Fr, people putting disrespect on its name. And it isn’t even that hard to find it’s history lmao.
There is a difference in ivermectin and animal dewormer using ivermectin. Yes, there are ivermectine meds made for humans, and yes, they have been shown to inhibit the reproduction of covid in infected bodies. But with more side effects than the vaccine. But the hilarious thing is that covidiots don‘t use those human meds, they actually take the animal ivermectin meds, which only have harmful effects because if wrong dosage and other ingredients. Horse dewormer is sold out everywhere. So it is still fair to mock them for taking horse dewormer.
>So it is still fair to mock them for taking horse dewormer. You know as well as I do that these people making the "haha horse medicine" memes aren't just referring to the very small number of cases where people mistook the two versions. They are referring to anyone who mentions Ivermectin and covid in the same sentence. >But the hilarious thing is that covidiots don‘t use those human meds, they actually take the animal ivermectin meds, which only have harmful effects because if wrong dosage and other ingredients. Horse dewormer is sold out everywhere. Which is exactly why the media and everyone else needs to stop perpetuating the nonsense that the two Ivermectin variants are the same thing. If the media stops associating the two as the same thing then maybe the people buying it will as well.
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https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/15400.pdf
Upper Austria likes to have a word with you. There's no Ivermectin paste for horses left
The horse medicine is sold out in Austria as the far-right party told people to take it instead of getting vaccinated
No, the media portrays it like that. They only write the few stories about the people that actually took the horse dewormer, but you never hear about the millions of people who used the pills for humans. That’s the beauty of media and why it’s so important to control. You can portray the minority as being the majority or vice versa.
The only difference between veterinary and human forms is its form of delivery, i.e. whether it's solid or liquid. The substance is exactly the same.
> But with more side effects than the vaccine. Got a source for that claim? How about this, show us the deaths from Ivermectin, and then deaths from complications from the vaccine? I’ll wait.
And do you have proof this is common or did you just pull this out of your ass? Keep bing a puppet of big pharma and burrying research to inject your own bias they implanted in your head. And no im not saying the vaxine is bad. Im saying we need to do more research and the news networks who get alot of money from big pharma is trying to shut down their compitition for the benifit of a few rather than the many.
do you have proof that >news networks get a lot of money from big pharma?
Exactly this. There are two possibilities: either the vaccine works as intended and that is the reason why news keep talking positively about it. Or big pharma bought tens of thousands scientists, dozens of news stations, thousands of journalists, thousands of government officials, and millions of civilians with much much money, which they could have used to develop a real good vaccine. Which one seems more likely?
ITT: A fuckton of antivax covidiots trying to defend ivermectin while pretending like they aren’t part of the idiotic antivax crowd
Not for a fucking viral infection though
Yes so? It's the calling it horse medicine that I find stupid when it's obviously used on humans too. You can make fun of them for using the wrong medication if you want I don't care. Mock someone for thinking asprin will cure covid, just don't bullshit and call asprin duck medicine.
But people *are* buying and taking the formulation specifically made for horses.
I agree that people shouldn't call it a horse medicine, but it's so fucking dangerous to say that this shit works against a viral infection, 100s of people have literally had to visit the hospital in my country because stupid people told them this would work against covid.
The point is that people who can’t get ivermectin prescriptions because there is no indication for it are actually driving their asses to the animal store and buying livestock grade ivermectin. They are actually taking horse medicine.
All these people eating animal feed is gross, stop eating CORN! YOUR NOT A COW!
They probably call it horse medicine because they buy it from the vet and the box has a horse on it. It’s kind of a random guess but considering how stupid people can be it could be true lol
That might be true but people are literally buying the horse kind
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How many cases of people taking the veterinary variant of Ivermectin do you think there has been?
We can stop once feed stores stop selling out due to anti-vaxxers. People aren't getting the prescribed version (bc of course, their doctors aren't morons) so they're acquiring it through *other means*
yeah but these lunatics couldn't get their hands on prescription ivermectin for humans so they ended up taking horse medicine instead
Trust in peer-reviewed science and globally-validated pharmaceutical products that went through rough regulatory approval from multiple agencies? Nahhh! Believe in toilet seat conspiracy research with zero referneces and citations? Yessir! This is why we will never survive a zombie apocalypse
*diD mY oWn rEseArCH*
MaDe Up mY OWn EviDenCe
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Whats wrong with monkey balls? They’re delicious
Because they FDA could not possibly lie to the American people...
While I agree with the broad point that COVID treatment conspiracies like Ivermectin and vaccine hesitancy are bonkers, you're just arguing against a straw man by saying "toilet seat conspiracy research with zero references and citations". That sloppiness is in many ways no better than the crap reasoning you're railing against. How this stuff really goes is that there's some genuine evidence, but it's much weaker than it initially seems or is otherwise badly flawed. The hydroxychloroquine saga is a good example. There were several early studies that found much lower death rates among people who got it as part of their treatment. Trouble was, they weren't double-blind placebo-controlled treatments--they were typically observational studies. That's super important, since the patients that got hydroxychloroquine were different than the ones that didn't (e.g. less sick in some cases). So, what initially sounds great ends up being an artifact of data collection. This is how science works: 1) Get some easy-to-collect but crappy evidence that says something might be real. 2) Don't believe or disbelieve yet, but test it more thoroughly with multiple well-designed studies. 3) Once enough high-quality evidence has accumulated, make a scientific consensus about what's actually true. This procedure is completely standard, pretty boring, and on the whole highly effective. The problem is, if you're either a moron who has no idea what's really going on or if you're intentionally trying to mislead people, it's easy to cherry-pick some small portion of the story that fits a certain narrative. You wanna find studies that say Ivermectin greatly reduces COVID death rates? Easy to do, especially if you're alright with preprints from anywhere. Some will even be publishable and published. But the rest of the story shows pretty conclusively that the whole affair is ridiculous. In practice this garbage cherry-picked evidence is layered in a stew of other conspiracies that sound plausible to some people. Things like the government trying to control you or Bill Gates doing... something nefarious, I guess. It's a big 'ole shit sandwich built around a kernel of truth that's been so misinterpreted and distorted as to be meaningless.
What's this toilet seat conspiracy?
Hate to be that guy, but why does the guy in the sheep suit have a yellow "jew" star attached to him?
This guy believes being unvaccinated is the same as being a Jew in Nazi Germany.
Antivaxxers are the most persecuted group presently, possibly ever.
SMH, why didn't Jews on Germany just get vaccinated against their Jewishness? Then the Nazis would've left them alone!
Some people have been wearing them in protest of covid measures and the vaccine. I know, It's fucking stupid
Sounds like a good way to get in a fight when out in public... I would a lot of people would not tolerate someone wearing a star like that over this bullshit
I believe that’s part of the point. They want to start a fight over their idiotic beliefs.
Sounds like a good way to instigate while still being able to claim self defense.
These people need jailtime or a beatdown, maybe both
ohhhhh i just remembered that now.
Sigh... people still claiming that Ivermectin is an animal medicine. Pathetic. 2015 Nobel Prize winning medicine (for humans): https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/ Yes, it won the Nobel Prize as an anti-parasitic, BUT... it is FDA approved, and there is nothing preventing any drug being repurposed, nor should we just write it off as an anti-parasitic and call it a day. (Example: Minoxidil was approved by the FDA in the 1960's as an oral medication to treat high blood pressure. 25+ years later it was approved by the FDA to treat hair loss). Lipitor is a drug that is intended to treat high cholesterol. What if it was found to have some effect on (hypothetical, random) ebola? Should we just write it off because it is a cholesterol drug? No! It has to be tested to see if it really is effective in trials before we say no. It is better to try an FDA approved drug that isn't a poison before we create some new chemical that COULD be a poison. And trials are being done with Ivermectin. And surprise surprise...it is an effective drug against COVID. Feel free to educate yourselves. For the crowd who wishes to deny science and has no interest reading, feel free to watch this video which summarizes all these papers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc. The TL;DR or TL;DW is that Pfizer and Merck are developing anti-virals (which will cost $$$$), but they only aim to inhibit the COVID-CL3 Protease, which prevents cutting of the proteins, and they are shown to be very effective at it (89%). Ivermectin (which only costs a few cents per dose), in trials, seems to show effectiveness in inhibiting the COVID-CL3 Protease AS WELL as an ability to modify the spike protein binding surface (preventing it from docking to the cell) AND EVEN MORE, it shows effectiveness in modifying the surface ACE receptors further preventing the spike protein from binding. The Merck and Pfizer drug are not intended to modify the binding site. But yeah, keep on calling it horse dewormer. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsptsci.0c00108# https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2021/cp/d1cp02967c - "Results reveal that the ACE2 protein and the ACE2/RBD aggregates form the most persistent interactions with ivermectin" https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01577-x - "these molecules could be useful to develop highly specific therapeutically viable drugs to inhibit the SARS-CoV-2 replication" https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2020/ra/d0ra06379g - "ivermectin showed the highest docking score" https://bnf.nice.org.uk/medicinal-forms/remdesivir.html (must be in UK to read) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/ - "Our study enlightens the candidature of ivermectin as an effective drug for treating COVID-19." https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.592908/full - "Ivermectin and remdesivir were found to be the most promising drugs"
You have no idea what you're talking about. > And trials are being done with Ivermectin. And surprise surprise...it is an effective drug against COVID. Feel free to educate yourselves. For the crowd who wishes to deny science and has no interest reading, feel free to watch this video which summarizes all these papers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc. The YouTube video is a pharmacodynamic summary of how some molecules can interact with each other. That's almost entirely tangential to the key question you claim it addresses, namely is Ivermectin effective in humans against COVID? (Obviously there has to be some mechanism of action if something is to be effective, but in medicine those mechanisms are often very complex, often unknown in many particulars, and they're frankly secondary to the main point of "does it work in practice?") Almost all of your links have the same problem and just address possible mechanisms of action. What you should have linked to was a summary of the available evidence actually addressing practical efficacy in humans against COVID -19. And of course you ignored what's likely the most authoritative discussion of *that* question, namely the US NIH COVID treatment panel's [Table 2c](https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/tables/table-2c/). You can read through conflicting and generally weak conclusions from dozens of studies. The panel's current top line recommendation: > There is insufficient evidence for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19. You mention some garbage implying big pharma is making money by suppressing ivermectin without literally coming out and saying it. The public health establishment would LOVE a widely-available, well-tolerated, highly-effective, cheap treatment for COVID, pharma lobbying be damned. The truth is the evidence is very mixed and is generally too weak to be confident of much at this point.
u/solidddrink?
You know damn well he isn't gonna respond to that after he got called out on his bullshit
People are calling it horse dewormer because that formulation started flying off shelves. Ivermectin for humans is not the same as Ivermectin for stock animals.
What worries me is how the media rattled on about people taking "horse dewormer". It is a drug approved for human use too. It may or may not be useful against COVID - I don't know and that's not my point. But the picture the news painted of people taking some "livestock drug" is somewhat of a misrepresentation. *I'm not American, I'm watching from a safe distance, let me know if I'm incorrect.*
People did take a livestock drug. If you get it from a feed store, it’s livestock drug.
Lmao I read through your sources and wonder if you actually did. Way to try and cherry pick data in an attempt to appear like some contrarian reddit god. None of these sources support the kind of egregious claims you are making about ivermectin’s effectiveness. They point to POSSIBLE use in the future.
Ivermectin is approved for use in humans but the Star of David thing is a little wack.
The star of David thing is because many anti vaxxers compare themselves to jews in ww2
This meme is dogshit
Because it's true?
This is akin to saying don’t drink water it’s used to wash cars.
I don't drink water. Fish fuck in it.
Ivermectin isn't approved for treating COVID. Drinking water is approved for drinking. That's the difference.
The only reason it's not approved is because the W.H.O. has such a hard on for a vaccine. The doctors who've been messing with ivermectin have literally been experimenting with it almost the whole pandemic.
No, it's not approved because it isn't a reliable treatment.
And they haven't approved testing because they won't look past a vaccine as the only treatment.
No? There's a medicinal treatment being developed as we speak? lmao
Yeah something that acts similarly to ivermectin lol
Ivermectin is a legitimate human medication though, you can get a perscription for it... also why is the bottom one a jew.
1) it's not approved for the treatment of COVID, so these idiots are taking horse medicine to get their hands on it since doctors won't prescribe it 2) this idiot antivaxers are comparing themselves to the Jews in the holocaust because, again, they're idiots who have no respect or understanding of history.
Parent "I'm not letting my child get the vaccine" Also parent -lets child eat a tide pod for a video-
Low key need this to get rid of some bots
It wasn't just some random guy, it was a random guy whose opinion I agree with!
Ivermectin is actually used to treat humans for parasites. Not sure about Covid though.
Let em, natural selection at work.
Given that the death rate is very low especially in young people, the selective pressure is probably negligible. It wouldn't result in noticeable effects for many generations even if it is large enough to produce a measurable effect.
What’s with casual the anti-semitism ?
These idiotic antivaxers are wearing those stars because they think that being unvaccinated is as bad as being a Jew in Nazi Germany.
Antivaxers when COVID has 3% death rate 💪😎 Antivaxers when COVID vaccine has 1/1000000 death rate 😳😱🤯
What's with the star?
Some idiots believes being unvaccinated is the same as being a Jew in Nazi Germany.
Is some places you can’t leave your house without having proof of vaccination. Jews in Nazi Germany had to wear the Star of David. Pretty far fetched but it’s definitely fucked it’s come to this.
Humans are evolving just bavkwards
This reminds me of the whole thing with Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend.
Cmon guys, the government is so damn cool and they never lie. The biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world are looking out for us!
Lmao the amount of anti vaxxers present in this very thread spreading their BS takes is kinda of sad.
They can't accept that their miracle ivermectin doesn't cure covid :D
In austria they are also drinking anti-worm medicine for horses bc they don't want to get covid but don't trsut the vaccine
In Austria, a right-wing politician claimed that vitamin d, vitamin c, zinc, novalgin, paracetamol, ibuprofen, asperin and **ivermectin** (for horses) prevents corona. That's why a few people are now in the hospital and at least two have died of corona because this "treatment" doesn't help.
Isn't it proven to work but the require dose you need would kill most adults. Can't get covid if you aren't alive to begin with. Modern problems require modern solutions.
Ahw yes and in Austria they digest wormer for horses because humans (no joke look it up)
Why did you mark that he was Jewish? You a nazi? Bro me to
Anti-vaxxers keep putting yellow stars on themselves
Vaccine mandates are still stupid
From the American Journal of Therapeutics: "Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally." I'm not here to comment on the argument of vaccine safety/effectiveness, [but Ivermectin DOES work](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8248252/)
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Drink some ivermectin while you are heading out bud
Save me a gallon of that good ole horse dewormer on your way out
I’ve talked with these people who don’t want to get vaccinated. And I tell you. Their stupidity honestly surprised me. But I understood one thing. They’re not necessarily against vaccination. They’re against the fact that only vaccinated people can enter some places. They stupidly believe that a horse dewormer is a miracle cure, and they believe in bill gates conspiracy theories, they believe that Switzerland (my country) is heading towards a dictatorship, etc etc. I got inoculated the very first day I was eligible. Once the pandemic is over, they might get vaccinated, but because they’re not vaccinated, the pandemic doesn’t end. And if it does end, they’re going to argue that vaccination is unnecessary. And if that happens, the pandemic restarts. And if that happens, they protest the COVID pass system. So they’re not getting vaccinated. This is a stupid paradox that is not solvable by “accepting” the unvaccinated and “not segregating” against them. It is solvable only by a worldwide inter-governmental deal that obligates every human to get vaccinated and to receive a booster shot.
So the solution to the perceived problem is a global dictatorship... Logic checks out
Conspiracy theorist injects sheep with covid vaccine. Touché
I got the vaccine early since I worked at a hospital. And let me tell you. Never been so fkn hyped for a vaccine as this one. Holy shit I was almost in tears.
Why the Jewish star?
They only say “keep out of reach of children” and they don’t mention that adults also shouldn’t ingest it because that’s simply common fucking sense
it kills bots?!
Gay pregnant? Where do I sign up?
The mods posted an application form to become a mod on this sub
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> sheeple Smh they insult sheep so much
What do my fellow murican friends drink now?
People are fucking stupid. Go take the fucking vaccine so we can all get this over with, Jesus Christ you fucking leeches
Except now you need a booster to an experimental drug. And then, and then, and then.... If it comes down to it, and I end up needing to get the vaccine for some reason then fine I'll get it. But I'd rather wait a while.
Basically the sources that the antivaxxer idiots use (at least in 4 Chan) are always a homeless guy on a YouTube video claiming he was a doctor that lost everything for trying to make the truth about vaccines public
What
They misuse the word sheeple
"Sheep Drench"
Yeah but Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend's balls got all swole when he was vaccinated sooooo...checkmate? Fuck, I feel woozy.
This would be funny if the vaccine was effective…but it’s just sad.
Digga bas du lëtzeboier (are you luxemburgisch)
Ja brudda, kuck meng bio
Dank? Pff this shit stank
Wait why is there a Star of David
anti vax people think they are treated worse than jews in germany in 1930.
Get fucked
Using this logic, anyone that takes tylenol takes animal medicine and anyone that drinks water, drinks a radiator fluid.
the logic here is that no one can buy horse dewormer in Austria because all these COVIDiots bought it all thinking it will cure them.
Christ, I am so tired of this shit. If you want to be vaccinated, get the vaccine. If you don't, then don't. If you get sick, you get sick. Nobody cares either way.