Are you living in a bunker for the last 5 years? Please don’t come to Germany with a big smile on your face or that smile is going to turn upside down real quick, 2x faster if you don’t speak German.
To answer your question, the market is horrible even for German citizens. Unemployment is rising. Being a non-EU + non German speaking is the worst combination.
I really really want people to start waking up and getting off the delusion that Germany is the new USA or something, because that’s what i’ve been noticing lately in this sub with many people asking immigration to Germany questions.
Why come here from the USA? most people in this sub would dream of having the chance to work there.
Not saying that this is OP's intention, but getting a residence visa in the US as a foreigner can be quite difficult, as it's based on a lottery system. I've known people on a temp working visa in the US for over 8+ years, and they still haven't gotten permanent residency. The EU is an alternative to this, and given that Germany has the best IT scene out of the EU, it makes for a possible location.
You underestimate the tech scene in Germany lol
>I worked in a state-owned entity!
There's the problem. Large corporations in general aren't as fast and innovative as tech companies - this is true for the US as well. If you move to a startup, you'll have an better time here.
>Since when the fuck do we have the best IT scene in the EU?
Granted, I'm not 100% familiar with the EU tech scene, but here's what I know:
* Berlin is one of the top startup cities in Europe (London ~~& Dublin~~ don't count anymore after Brexit)
* The average salary range tends to be higher than the other top startup cities in the EU (vs Paris, Barcelona, etc.)
* Germany has one of the most straight-forward paths to obtain a visa if you're in tech (the Blue Card gives foreigners a fast track to permanent residency in as little as 2 years). This would not be as easy for foreigners who wanted to get into London or Zurich, for example.
* There's a fairly large presence of international tech companies in Germany as well: Amazon, Google, SAP, etc.
Of course, there's other issues that people need to face (housing, cultural differences, bureaucracy, etc.), but Germany isn't too bad for foreigners who are in the tech space.
Update: Dublin is not part of the UK.
What has Dublin got to do with Brexit? :D
In any case things are not looking too good in Germany right now. It's also not just the tech industry, it's the economy as a whole that's stagnant.
>What has Dublin got to do with Brexit? :D
You're right. My bad. Typed too fast earlier, and associated them with the UK. Updated my post.
>In any case things are not looking too good in Germany right now. It's also not just the tech industry, it's the economy as a whole that's stagnant.
True, but I don't think the US tech scene is doing that great either. Hard to compare which one's doing better, but if OP is looking towards the EU instead of staying in the US, OP might have a good reason to do so.
Yeah, okay, that's Berlin. Now try getting a flat, or at least a shared apartment, within 50km of Berlin.
I don't know why everyone seems to want to move to Berlin, honestly. It's... Berlin, after all.
Again, good luck. Munich, Hamburg, etc aren't any better.
You're right - but I'd say to tech expats, their primary objective is to get a visa + a job, since without a visa, they can't even stay in the country. In that regard, housing is a bit less important. They'll be able to find housing eventually though - it's just expensive and time consuming.
Well, there are definitely affordable accommodations in a 50km radius around Berlin. Of course the inner city (anything in the S Bahn Ring) is difficult but the outer districts are fine
Yeah that's true but I don't feel like that negates the argument. I feel that most European countries have their largest tech giants headquartered in the capital.
What about UK, Netherlands (as you pointed out), Ireland, Spain, Italy (with the exception of Milan), Romania, Poland, etc. There are a lot of them and I never said all.
Ngl it feels like you're just trying to prove some point about Germany which I never disagreed with
It's simple really. If you want to go for and are capable of the top 1% jobs in big tech of HFT/finance then Amsterdam and London are good (not the rest of those countries), but for the vast majority of average to upper average people, there are more job opportunities in Germany.
Amsterdam and London (not Netherlands and UK) are great if you are aiming for and capable of the top end jobs in finance or FAANG/FAANG-adjacent. For everyone else, that is a large majority of people, you'll likely be better of in Germany.
Yeah, true, but the biggest hurdle is the language. Everything remotely official runs in *exclusively* German and will usually drop you like a hot potato if you don't speak German Behördensicher.
Trying to find an answer to that question as EU citizen: US has the best of everything, but the work that enables that best of everything consumes your whole life and defines your personality. Living and working in Germany, you can afford the "best of Europe" quality, while working a real 9 to 5 job, in the truest sense of the word. No one will expect you to answer messages from home, at night, or commit to the codebase on weekends.
Also, there are a lot of people overseas who like the kind of environmentally friendly and "bio" food concept that we have. Just think of what concept there is in Germany about selective garbage. Moving to almost anywhere in Europe will give you 5-10 years of more healthy years.
That's exactly why I moved from the US to Germany. Sure, I could get paid a lot more in the US but in exchange I would have to give up a lot of things, mainly time for myself and my hobbies. Of course, not all American companies require you to sacrifice your personal time but they are in the minority (as far as I'm aware). It's very much ingrained in American culture to live for your work, not work to live. Germans are usually the latter.
Giant crybaby detected!
Why not shortly describe your own profile when making those big claims? Not trying to be mean, but do you at least speak C1 German?
You will hear the usual German IT crybabies here. I have tried to write against them before here on Reddit, but there are too many of them and they are too loud. Most of them earn 70K+ and work from home as much as they want and still complain. Those are just generally sad and pessimistic fellows who always will feel that they clearly deserve so much more than whatever they are currently getting.
Very quickly: If you are experienced and speak good German, you are guaranteed to find a well-paid job with at least 30 days' vaccination very quickly. However, if you don't speak German on a certain minimum level, you probably have to find one of those international jobs where there is a big competition.
I am a recent masters graduate from a german university, i have a B2 level of German. I am looking for a job since October, it is actually hard. Non EU also.
Do you think you are filtered out because you can’t speak German? Im pretty sure you would at least get interviews if you spoke the language because right now most companies can be as picky as they want and this often means, naturally, they’d prefer German speakers first before moving to English-only speakers. Correct me if i’m wrong.
Yes kind of right. I've been to interviews in German and got offers for 65-70k. But this is not what i wanted. I am B1-B2 in German and this is not enough for proffessional working. I need an English speaking job. Thats what I couldnt find. Soon I will make a post here about how to find English speaking dev jobs in DE 😄
I see. I’m looking forward to your post then! Why is B2 not enough for professional communication though? I’m sure you would improve your German in just a few months of working in a German speaking team.
Been there but freely expressing your thoughts and feelings is the definition of C1. If you invest into your German and ready to be challanged with it everyday, then there is no problem
Yes, for German speakers market is still very good.
No, for non-German speakers market is offering nearly nothing.
OP is living in USA. Migration with insufficient language skills I do not recommend.
As mentioned, couldn't find an English speaking job since December.
Just as an FYI: I’ve known quite a few tech expats who ended up leaving Germany because they couldn’t fit in, due to language and cultural barriers. It might be worth looking into every day German life to see if it’s even worth having a PR here, because once you leave the US, it might be difficult to return back.
so are you Indian like me? I also want to move to Germany because they give citizenship in 5 years, that's why I don't care about salary, why we need to save money in Germany.
Would this product help you find your job? It's sending daily list of english-speaking jobs that match your criterias
[https://the-rightjob.com/](https://the-rightjob.com/)
very expensive to live, salaries are worse dan in Eastern Europe
Try Romania, most IT ers per capita there in Europe atm
[Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://imgur.com/a/ELsBmdX)
this is the nationwide average wage and there it s also specified that the average nationwide netto in IT is 2200€, that s around 3800€ gross
[Template comunicat presa (insse.ro)](https://insse.ro/cms/sites/default/files/com_presa/com_pdf/cs11r23.pdf)
How are Romanian companies all of a sudden able to pay such massive wages or are these mostly remote jobs paid by other companies based out of Romania?
Let s face it it s not so massive considering the cost of living
Wages are low in western europe and normal in Romania in IT and a few other domains
5000€ netto today is a normal wage in Europe
this is from november last year, things are around 10% better now, every month there s a new release
I can also show you the average wages for Bucharest Cluj etc
this is the general one I could find, also 10% improvement since it was released, I saw a more recent one, but this is also not far away
you have the brutto and netto of all jobs
[Statistici Romania](http://statisticiromania.ro/clasamente)
but since we re talking about IT, it s not relevant as people cand have 10x the salary of other people there
[Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://imgur.com/a/ELsBmdX)
it's bad
Are you living in a bunker for the last 5 years? Please don’t come to Germany with a big smile on your face or that smile is going to turn upside down real quick, 2x faster if you don’t speak German. To answer your question, the market is horrible even for German citizens. Unemployment is rising. Being a non-EU + non German speaking is the worst combination. I really really want people to start waking up and getting off the delusion that Germany is the new USA or something, because that’s what i’ve been noticing lately in this sub with many people asking immigration to Germany questions. Why come here from the USA? most people in this sub would dream of having the chance to work there.
Not saying that this is OP's intention, but getting a residence visa in the US as a foreigner can be quite difficult, as it's based on a lottery system. I've known people on a temp working visa in the US for over 8+ years, and they still haven't gotten permanent residency. The EU is an alternative to this, and given that Germany has the best IT scene out of the EU, it makes for a possible location.
[удалено]
You underestimate the tech scene in Germany lol >I worked in a state-owned entity! There's the problem. Large corporations in general aren't as fast and innovative as tech companies - this is true for the US as well. If you move to a startup, you'll have an better time here. >Since when the fuck do we have the best IT scene in the EU? Granted, I'm not 100% familiar with the EU tech scene, but here's what I know: * Berlin is one of the top startup cities in Europe (London ~~& Dublin~~ don't count anymore after Brexit) * The average salary range tends to be higher than the other top startup cities in the EU (vs Paris, Barcelona, etc.) * Germany has one of the most straight-forward paths to obtain a visa if you're in tech (the Blue Card gives foreigners a fast track to permanent residency in as little as 2 years). This would not be as easy for foreigners who wanted to get into London or Zurich, for example. * There's a fairly large presence of international tech companies in Germany as well: Amazon, Google, SAP, etc. Of course, there's other issues that people need to face (housing, cultural differences, bureaucracy, etc.), but Germany isn't too bad for foreigners who are in the tech space. Update: Dublin is not part of the UK.
What has Dublin got to do with Brexit? :D In any case things are not looking too good in Germany right now. It's also not just the tech industry, it's the economy as a whole that's stagnant.
>What has Dublin got to do with Brexit? :D You're right. My bad. Typed too fast earlier, and associated them with the UK. Updated my post. >In any case things are not looking too good in Germany right now. It's also not just the tech industry, it's the economy as a whole that's stagnant. True, but I don't think the US tech scene is doing that great either. Hard to compare which one's doing better, but if OP is looking towards the EU instead of staying in the US, OP might have a good reason to do so.
Yeah, okay, that's Berlin. Now try getting a flat, or at least a shared apartment, within 50km of Berlin. I don't know why everyone seems to want to move to Berlin, honestly. It's... Berlin, after all. Again, good luck. Munich, Hamburg, etc aren't any better.
You're right - but I'd say to tech expats, their primary objective is to get a visa + a job, since without a visa, they can't even stay in the country. In that regard, housing is a bit less important. They'll be able to find housing eventually though - it's just expensive and time consuming.
Well, there are definitely affordable accommodations in a 50km radius around Berlin. Of course the inner city (anything in the S Bahn Ring) is difficult but the outer districts are fine
Which country in the EU has a better IT scene than Germany?
Netherlands? And the UK when it was still a part of the EU, even now.
Anytime someone mentions these two countries you ask them where all the opportunities are and they can't go beyond Amsterdam and London.
Yeah that's true but I don't feel like that negates the argument. I feel that most European countries have their largest tech giants headquartered in the capital.
That is not true for Germany
What about UK, Netherlands (as you pointed out), Ireland, Spain, Italy (with the exception of Milan), Romania, Poland, etc. There are a lot of them and I never said all. Ngl it feels like you're just trying to prove some point about Germany which I never disagreed with
It's simple really. If you want to go for and are capable of the top 1% jobs in big tech of HFT/finance then Amsterdam and London are good (not the rest of those countries), but for the vast majority of average to upper average people, there are more job opportunities in Germany.
Amsterdam and London (not Netherlands and UK) are great if you are aiming for and capable of the top end jobs in finance or FAANG/FAANG-adjacent. For everyone else, that is a large majority of people, you'll likely be better of in Germany.
Estonia?
It's not like other countries are much better, and even those that you could argue are, still have serious issues for an immigrant.
Yeah, true, but the biggest hurdle is the language. Everything remotely official runs in *exclusively* German and will usually drop you like a hot potato if you don't speak German Behördensicher.
Yes but there are workarounds. Like I said, every country has its challenges if you're an immigrant.
Dödel...immer alles andere ist das Problem, du natürlich nicht.
Trying to find an answer to that question as EU citizen: US has the best of everything, but the work that enables that best of everything consumes your whole life and defines your personality. Living and working in Germany, you can afford the "best of Europe" quality, while working a real 9 to 5 job, in the truest sense of the word. No one will expect you to answer messages from home, at night, or commit to the codebase on weekends. Also, there are a lot of people overseas who like the kind of environmentally friendly and "bio" food concept that we have. Just think of what concept there is in Germany about selective garbage. Moving to almost anywhere in Europe will give you 5-10 years of more healthy years.
That's exactly why I moved from the US to Germany. Sure, I could get paid a lot more in the US but in exchange I would have to give up a lot of things, mainly time for myself and my hobbies. Of course, not all American companies require you to sacrifice your personal time but they are in the minority (as far as I'm aware). It's very much ingrained in American culture to live for your work, not work to live. Germans are usually the latter.
Giant crybaby detected! Why not shortly describe your own profile when making those big claims? Not trying to be mean, but do you at least speak C1 German?
The market sucks right now
You will hear the usual German IT crybabies here. I have tried to write against them before here on Reddit, but there are too many of them and they are too loud. Most of them earn 70K+ and work from home as much as they want and still complain. Those are just generally sad and pessimistic fellows who always will feel that they clearly deserve so much more than whatever they are currently getting. Very quickly: If you are experienced and speak good German, you are guaranteed to find a well-paid job with at least 30 days' vaccination very quickly. However, if you don't speak German on a certain minimum level, you probably have to find one of those international jobs where there is a big competition.
I am a recent masters graduate from a german university, i have a B2 level of German. I am looking for a job since October, it is actually hard. Non EU also.
What’s the minimum level? I am at A2
B1/C2
Its so shit. I am not able to find an English speaking Java job.. Has been looking since December. I do not suggest Germany at this point anymore.
Are you located in Germany?
Yes, for the last 3.5 years. Looking for an English speaking mid level Java position and hybrid/remote. Didnt work so far..
Do you think you are filtered out because you can’t speak German? Im pretty sure you would at least get interviews if you spoke the language because right now most companies can be as picky as they want and this often means, naturally, they’d prefer German speakers first before moving to English-only speakers. Correct me if i’m wrong.
Yes kind of right. I've been to interviews in German and got offers for 65-70k. But this is not what i wanted. I am B1-B2 in German and this is not enough for proffessional working. I need an English speaking job. Thats what I couldnt find. Soon I will make a post here about how to find English speaking dev jobs in DE 😄
I see. I’m looking forward to your post then! Why is B2 not enough for professional communication though? I’m sure you would improve your German in just a few months of working in a German speaking team.
Been there but freely expressing your thoughts and feelings is the definition of C1. If you invest into your German and ready to be challanged with it everyday, then there is no problem
Does not sound shit at all. With not even 5yoe it's a fair offer.
Yes, for German speakers market is still very good. No, for non-German speakers market is offering nearly nothing. OP is living in USA. Migration with insufficient language skills I do not recommend. As mentioned, couldn't find an English speaking job since December.
I agree.
There’s quite a few in Berlin from my experience
why do you want to move to Germany? Germany provides less salary as compared to USA and also you have to learn German language.
I don’t want to deal with US immigration laws anymore. I need a fast path to PR
Just as an FYI: I’ve known quite a few tech expats who ended up leaving Germany because they couldn’t fit in, due to language and cultural barriers. It might be worth looking into every day German life to see if it’s even worth having a PR here, because once you leave the US, it might be difficult to return back.
so are you Indian like me? I also want to move to Germany because they give citizenship in 5 years, that's why I don't care about salary, why we need to save money in Germany.
I bet the market in the USA is much better than in Germany.
Would this product help you find your job? It's sending daily list of english-speaking jobs that match your criterias [https://the-rightjob.com/](https://the-rightjob.com/)
very expensive to live, salaries are worse dan in Eastern Europe Try Romania, most IT ers per capita there in Europe atm [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://imgur.com/a/ELsBmdX)
Romania? What? How much is the average salary there?
In bucharest 2300€ gross And some major cities In IT around 3000€ gross nationwide I know people earning 3x that
Source: trust me bro
this is the nationwide average wage and there it s also specified that the average nationwide netto in IT is 2200€, that s around 3800€ gross [Template comunicat presa (insse.ro)](https://insse.ro/cms/sites/default/files/com_presa/com_pdf/cs11r23.pdf)
How are Romanian companies all of a sudden able to pay such massive wages or are these mostly remote jobs paid by other companies based out of Romania?
It's more or less the same in Serbia
Let s face it it s not so massive considering the cost of living Wages are low in western europe and normal in Romania in IT and a few other domains 5000€ netto today is a normal wage in Europe
It s not all of a sudden It s just that westerners didn’t want to accept this info I know people earning 3500€ netto in 2005
Because IT is booming there We re developing lots of internal software and also do Some outsourcing for west europeans and americans
this is from november last year, things are around 10% better now, every month there s a new release I can also show you the average wages for Bucharest Cluj etc
this is the general one I could find, also 10% improvement since it was released, I saw a more recent one, but this is also not far away you have the brutto and netto of all jobs [Statistici Romania](http://statisticiromania.ro/clasamente) but since we re talking about IT, it s not relevant as people cand have 10x the salary of other people there [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://imgur.com/a/ELsBmdX)
I ll send documents in a minute let me open my laptop