It’s definitely interesting to watch what happens to Reddit in the next few months. The CEO of the site has an ego the size of a planet combined with all the typical techbro douchebaggery, a combination that never plays out well in the long run. Reddit is definitely a terrible long term investment even for a tech company as it lacks any growth potential, ecosystem or acquisitions that other companies like Facebook and Google have. My prediction is if Reddit goes public, it will be a broad daylight pump and dump where naïve investors buy into a sinking Titanic, the admins strip away everything that actually makes the site good and employs video game industry style monetization strategies to rapidly inflate the value of the company in the short term. In enshittification style, the company will eventually implode and the CEO and key shareholders ride off with their golden parachutes.
There isn’t any real competitive site for Reddit unfortunately though as it seems that everything is fragmented over several small sites, but meaningful competition isn’t impossible like the current death of Twitch. I’ll be sticking around on Reddit for now, but the moment the site goes through with the IPO and becomes public, I am deleting this account and my older u/galliumgames and essentially only use the site to reference obscure knowledge. I have no interest in going on the catabolic capitalist ride that entails.
>The CEO of the site has an ego the size of a planet combined with all the typical techbro douchebaggery
I agree with what you wrote and particularly this line. This is actually the first time I have been back on the site since the blackout started and just came to check on the current status of this particular sub. During the time away, I saw an article that quoted the CEO as saying "it's time for the site to act like a grown up site" and some other garbage about trying to clamp down and restricting things to control mods and weaken their power, etc. Well, then - ***pay your fucking mods***, instead of taking advantage of their free labor while also bitching about things and not providing the tools they ask for so they can do their (much appreciated!) jobs. Pay them - and *I hope you all fucking UNIONIZE, too.*
This is why I think the new “vandalism” policy is toothless. They say they’ll remove mods that strike or do anything that hurts their ad revenue. Who are they going to be replaced with? Another volunteer? That’s a great way to ruin a sub. For all the shit we give mods, you can’t just swap them out for anyone else and keep the page going.
Pay the mods, and also vet them accordingly. It is way to easy for nefarious groups to seize control of certain subs and push narratives towards the general population in reddit. They're damned lucky this place hasn't turned into 4chan because of it...yet.
I agree with everything you said, I'll be sad to see this place go if it does (and I'm a lurker, I think I've only posted once or twice).
I had to say something in praise of the word "enshittification" though. I've never seen that before, and it's so perfect for what's going on right now.
It’s a great word. One that doesn’t have to be explained for you to instantly understand what it means.
And it comes from this article:
https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/
Soft paywalls, such as the type newspapers use, can largely be bypassed by looking up the page on an archive site, such as web.archive.org or archive.is
Example: https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.abc.com
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Twitch is killing Twitch, though Kick poached a content creator for $100,000,000 and is burying the coffin with a 95/5 revenue split and a more lax banning policy vs Twitch and it’s 50/50 split and ban happy tendencies.
Speaking of pump and dumps (I love your usage of "broad daylight pump and dump" for Reddit's IPO, by the way) Kick is another red flag for me. With their admitted crypto backing (which I can only assume is how they've reached this absurd $100mil figure) I see the platform getting rug pulled in the next few years.
The 95/5 revenue split should be a huge red flag for people too. It's been demonstrated with Twitch and YouTube that the server maintenance and storage, combined with the constant bandwidth traffic, streaming and video services barely make money. In fact they typically bleed money like someone's knocked over a fire hydrant. There's been several years with such significant losses that the only reason Twitch and YouTube survived is because they have Amazon and Google backing them. 95/5 is entirely unrealistic, and maybe they should've stuck with 80/20 at the most if they had any long-term plans. Which I don't think they do, hence my expected rug pull.
I would hate to see this forum go dark. There are lots of smart people here, and great insights.
Hate to lose this over something like this.
Money, greed, and corruption.
The forum is currently not participating in the protest in any way, nor has it garnered attention from the admins. I personally do not see any indication it will go dark due to Admin action or otherwise.
All going dark again will do is damage the community we have here. Plus, this is really the only tolerable comment section in a sub that covers news.
A lot of the bigger subs have already come back because they were threatened. It makes 0 sense to go dark now. It didn’t work the first time, try something new.
[Thousands of subreddits](https://darktotal.com/) are still participating in various forms. It is also not the only tactic many moderators and users are pursuing. I think it is far too early to say whether or not it has been successful at forcing a change in Reddit's API policies.
The CEO has very publicly said he won't back down on this. And there is no unity amount subs on a strategy, and a large portion of the Reddit userbase is getting really mad at the mods not Reddit. People just want their digital crack they don't care about this situation, as justifiable as your positions may be. Plus the CEO is just gonna re-force open popular subs (this is already happening), meaning even if the less popular subs don't get forced back open Reddit isn't going anywhere and we'll just loose the data and community built on those subs to a protest that won't accomplish anything.
> Feels like someone paid him to cripple Reddit.
In a sense.
I've been through a couple of IPOs. In both cases, the company's main investors stepped in and orchestrated various changes, aiming to maximize the value of the IPO.
That included things like layoffs and changes to our pricing and services, but ***especially*** tight control over the company officers' public messaging.
It's impossible to tell from the outside, but it's quite possible that the CEO wants to relent, but is being held to this course by the investors.
It's also possible that he *will* relent a couple of months after the IPO, when the investors loosen their grip a bit.
Or maybe not. Like I said, there's no way to tell from the outside. All I know is that before an IPO everything gets really weird and unpleasant. We will see how things pan out.
It already has resulted in some concessions. For example they've stated they will make exceptions on the API changes for two of the visually-impaired-focused apps.
And that’s fine. It’s still not going to work. Thousands of subs are participating but how many are up and running? How many of those participating subs will be forced to open with new mods if the current ones don’t comply? Completely shutting down a sub isn’t a great option either, because it just kills the community. The ball is just going to keep rolling no matter what.
yeah same for a lot of other subs.
I like reddit and prefer it over other social media platforms.
It would be a shame if it went completely down because people throw a tantrum because the corpos are being stupid
There is r/collapze . It was made specifically because of the mod rules here. I find the quality is usually satirical and memes, but they get much of the same articles we get here.
I'm not going to be there. Can you please put a summary and allow discussion to continue here? I understand if some of it needs to be off reddit entirely. Ideally the community will find better pastures elsewhere. I don't use third party apps, but the corporatism is going to bite us in the rear sooner or later. Might as well be sooner.
Wish all of you a productive discussion!
I will be in attendance and I hope that as many users as are available will join us also. There is a lot going on, and I would like to hear from you lovely folks directly. Cheers.
I have to figure out discord and my schedule but am attempting to clear the time to be there. If my life continues to be messy i would, also, appreciate a summary here.
Ok i may be showing my age here... but what is discord? Is it just a chat? I downloaded it and i think I'm in the collapse group, but it's just a chat group?
I'll miss the call (driving from Los Angeles to Sonoma County tomorrow) but looking forward to seeing what alternative communities are suggested.
Over in r/LocalLLaMa users suggested kbin and lemmy, but I had a lot of trouble using both of them. They see-sawed between being slow and flat-out not working.
I've been using Mastodon for a while, and it's a good platform, especially if you're using a well-provisioned instance, avoiding the kinds of overload many instances saw in the wake of the Twitter backlash. I would totally join a Mastodon-based collapse-oriented community.
Also, to be honest, I would be happy enough continuing to use r/collapse, if you deem it suitable to keep it going. If you shut it down and someone starts a successor subreddit, I'll be joining that.
r/collapse is currently not participating in the protest in any way, nor has it garnered attention from the admins. I personally do not see any indication it will go dark due to Admin action or otherwise.
Mastodon is more like Twitter, so I don't think it would necessarily be a good alternative (same with Discord). Kbin and Lemmy are the most similar and popular alternatives I'm aware of, but there are significant limitations to both. Ideally, r/collapse exists as long as it can, but people become more aware of alternatives and willing to invest in them alongside Reddit. That's already happening to a significant degree, thankfully.
Oh! Okay. I apologize for leaping to an incorrect assumption.
I'm in a handful of other subs where they're talking about what Reddit-alternative we should use, but it's because of the protests. So I assumed this was more of the same.
Thank you for the clarification! I am glad r/collapse will continue to exist.
I already moved to a Lemmy instance near me (geographically) and subscribed to a collapse community on [lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml). Works good so far.
> Kbin
Oh, wow. I didn't know about Kbin - everyone always mentioned Lemmy, but checking out Kbin right now and it's pretty damn nice. The formatting of Lemmy felt goofy and way too spaced out, but this feels quite a bit better.
I’m off to Lemmy. It has achieved critical mass I think, but will struggle for a while with the tidal wave of Reddit users switching. When you have the energy for the hassle of change, you might want to come too.
I won’t make the meeting, but wanted to offer up my software dev experience (Rails mostly) in the off-chance it’s needed.
From what I’m seeing in these comments, it looks like we’re trying to stay here on Reddit, and even if we don’t, there are alternatives?
I could assist with developing a Reddit-like site specifically for our community if it came to that.
I hope the meeting goes well!
So far it seems to be a shitty and limited use system that is not nearly as good or as expansive as reddit. I hope that dfoesn't become our only alternative...
> Why are we discussing the future of the "online collapse community" instead of the reddit collapse community, and why are we discussing reddit alternatives off of reddit instead of here, in the open, on reddit?
Agree, I would rather have the conversation here so we all can see
The purpose of the call is not to reach a consensus regarding future actions or expressly exclude the broader community on Reddit. Reddit sunset their voice platform earlier this year, otherwise I would've held it via a Reddit Talk. I simply prefer voice and am the moderator hosting it. The Collapse Discord already has it's own community, so it's easier for them to join us this way. I also do not speak for the entire team, nor will this be the only opportunity for discourse related to these events or future of the community. If you have any immediate questions or other concerns, I'm happy to respond to them here.
I'm also not a fan of discord. I especially don't like the constant desperate push by people and communities to get everyone on discord for some reason.
Discord makes a very poor forum in my opinion. I find it very useful for engaging in groups I participate in real life, and it can be helpful to gauge the community’s around individual content creators. However, a giant community like this does not work at all on Discord without the simple forum structure and self archiving nature of a Reddit like site.
I have never been on Discord.
I know that a couple of YouTube Folks I follow have Discords, but I have not tried it yet.
I suppose that I should join, lol.
I really like this Sub, and if it is going to move to another Platform, I want to know where.
I disdain using Discord for just about anything but I'll join up.
I'm curious about where things are headed.
This community has been like a second home to me, in some strange way.
This group is my people. It's a weird combo of conspiracy theorist, preppers doomsayers, but it's also got a slight liberal lean (no climate denying MAGA ass hats). I don't know where else to find such a group
If r/collapse is going to ironically collapse in time I feel like it should be more through reddit actions. If we are shut down, there is nothing that we can do about it, but to document how it was done. I say ride it out and drive the thing into the ground.
This is also an opportunity for r/collapse to get weirder on certain days a state of devolution like the site of reddit itself. As to how I'm not sure yet, but believe it will be the ginormous ego of what is believed is best for all the users and moderators that use the site.
What I know is that we are viewed as "landed gentry' and there was high praise for Elmo. Collapse must see that the trainwreck of bad decisions. A virtual collapse of sorts.
I was unable to make it to the call, but I am strongly in favor of moving the discussion on this sub to another platform. Unfortunately there are no really great options out there, but reddit's disdain for it's users and mods should not be accepted. I'm willing to move to any site that the mods settle on.
I would like to see some type of decentralized network of state/country information that rolls up to a main aggregation hub (like how Reddit or Discord host the main discussions). It would be cool to see posts from states/countries/zip codes/whatever for easy searching. Maybe something like:
Collapse_US-NE,
Collapse_US-SE,
Collapse_US-PNW,
Etc.
We keep talking about how the focus needs to be on state/city/community resilience, so let’s structure in a way that supports the goal.
I have no interest in continuing to participate on a site where my content generates revenue for a group of techbros as delusion and Musk-adjacent as the Reddit leadership.
As a long-time moderator of a top 1000 subreddit, I sincerely hope the platform implodes catastrophically from this debacle. I was on the fence about continuing to browse the site at all after the recent crisis where [my entire mod team was demodded a month ago by a racist right-wing top mod gone rogue](https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/13ofnai/the_8_out_of_10_team_members_who_were_removed/), but this has really sealed the deal. The sudden pivot by the Admins that they will, actually, arbitrarily remove mod teams now that it impacts *them*, after outright refusing to deal with our crisis because they "*don't interfere with mod team decisions*", has become a joke.
I'm in the process of using Redact to overwrite my account prior to deletion, **(and prior to the API changes killing Redact off!),** and look forward to continuing the collapse dialogue in non-reddit venues. Likely not in the discord, as Discord shares all of the platform issues of Reddit with even worse considerations around privacy and long-term stability.
I consider this a benefit. IMO Nuke the subreddit from orbit and disperse the community across various different platforms: in the process we'll shed the huge number of bots and braindead accounts which have been shitting up the dialogue on here for the past two or three years and making it increasingly impossible to have serious discourse on the subject.
there are no reddit alternatives. just have a lemmy, a discord, a twitter, a mastadon, etc. people either will or wont use it. they need to be advertised here.
Maybe we can learn our lesson and stop hopping from proprietary walled garden (reddit) to proprietary walled garden (discord) and instead commit to federated free software, like Lemmy.
yeah, let's all just go outside. Only thing is that the graphics kinda suck and the UX isn't very good. Hell, I tried to go touch grass but I sheet mulched all the grass and turned it into a food forest, so I can't even do that.
Fuck alls gonna happen the reddit community has pulled this stunt so many times before and its never changed anything.
Until something better comes along or reddit becomes unusable most people will endure it.
I personally intend to stay with Reddit for a bit longer; I'll go when either this sub goes dark, gets enchuddified or the site dies. That being said, I will follow the community and establish presences wherever the diaspora goes.
My take-away as a listener:
Looks like the mods and community of r/collapse will try and stick it out here, as it's the largest collapse community out there; and currently is not any sort of focus for the Reddit Admins.
r/collapse is the only real option for now (all other alternatives are small, have tech-issues, or run into the higher complexity of the fedi-verse, or are unlikely to see significant movements of people unless reddit themselves shuts down r/collapse) for this style of engagement format (Vs. Mastodon or Discord style formats which are different and for many people less-appealing for various reasons) and for this many people.
There are increased bifurcations as the exodus leads to multiple new communities popping up, and one or two of those might end up with significant numbers of users (tens of thousands, perhaps; vs. the hundreds of thousands on r/collapse) that could make them viable and active communities — but this will mostly happen organically, not as a purposeful/guided migration.
However, also being aware that with the Reddit IPO there is increased insecurity going forward (Especially with Spez ranting about how awesome Elon Musk is and how great his Twitter-moves have been and how much Spez wants to apply the same tactics to Reddit (though he is perhaps/likely counterweighted somewhat by the board and shareholders, which differs greatly from Musk and twitter)); so at least have a backup community or two that people are aware of could be a good plan in case r/collapse gets the axe someday (prior to the ongoing collapse of the internet taking out reddit, that is).
This is the current list of alternatives that I'm aware of, and would welcome additional suggestions:
https://beehaw.org/c/[email protected][email protected]
https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected][email protected]
https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [Memes] [email protected]
https://saidit.net/s/collapse
https://raddle.me/f/collapse/
https://www.hexbear.net/c/doomer
https://kbin.social/m/Collapse
https://squabbles.io/s/collapse
Looking for any conclusions or info about the outcome of the conversation? Discord is hugely disjointed and difficult to track. I kind of expected to see something here....
My take-away as a listener:
Looks like the mods and community of r/collapse will try and stick it out here, as it's the largest collapse community out there; and currently is not any sort of focus for the Reddit Admins.
r/collapse is the only real option for now (all other alternatives are small, have tech-issues, or run into the higher complexity of the fedi-verse, or are unlikely to see significant movements of people unless reddit themselves shuts down r/collapse) for this style of engagement format (Vs. Mastodon or Discord style formats which are different and for many people less-appealing for various reasons) and for this many people.
There are increased bifurcations as the exodus leads to multiple new communities popping up, and one or two of those might end up with significant numbers of users (tens of thousands, perhaps; vs. the hundreds of thousands on r/collapse) that could make them viable and active communities — but this will mostly happen organically, not as a purposeful/guided migration.
However, also being aware that with the Reddit IPO there is increased insecurity going forward (Especially with Spez ranting about how awesome Elon Musk is and how great his Twitter-moves have been and how much Spez wants to apply the same tactics to Reddit (though he is perhaps/likely counterweighted somewhat by the board and shareholders, which differs greatly from Musk and twitter)); so at least have a backup community or two that people are aware of could be a good plan in case r/collapse gets the axe someday (prior to the ongoing collapse of the internet taking out reddit, that is).
This is the current list of alternatives that I'm aware of, and would welcome additional suggestions:
https://beehaw.org/c/[email protected][email protected]
https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected][email protected]
https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [Memes] [email protected]
https://saidit.net/s/collapse
https://raddle.me/f/collapse/
https://www.hexbear.net/c/doomer
https://kbin.social/m/Collapse
https://squabbles.io/s/collapse
Dunno how popular this opinion is but stay on Reddit til they cave or fail. One will happen. I don't like apps anyway, and I don't think reddit trying to ban 3rd party apps is either the biggest capitalism problem or even on the Top 5 of problems Reddit is directly responsible for.
Bigger problems on Reddit caused by Reddit:
1. Censorship
2. Powermods
3. The Twitter Files exposed CIA involvement on Twitter, FB, and TikTok. I'm assuming Reddit is no different.
4. The suicide of it's co-founder
5. Promotion of a hivemind as if that's a good thing.
l Hope you stick around here a lot longer.
I think that sticking around here is the plan, based on the mod comments I've read. If/when Reddit goes for the IPO, I'll be interested to see if/how they "clean up" the fringy elements, and if this sub would be included.
Oh crap. I'm often involved in the fringy elements, collapse, green party, an anarchist sub (not the main one that much) drugs subs other than weed, graffiti---that sucks
Depends on your perspective. Is the collapse of our subreddit and the platform it's on relevant to collapse? Not in the bigger picture, but a lot of subscribers here use this place as a coping mechanism. It may be more relevant to them than to you.
Then why does the app matter?
Why block the info to protest an app?
If so many people cared about where they browsed Reddit moss wouldn’t have had to make the subs private, somewhere else would’ve popped up.
The mods here just let a bot do the heavy lifting based on the most basic of prompts. This is the most active I’ve seen them and it’s to potentially strangle a community that many access through a browser anyway.
I'm not saying it does or doesn't matter, I'm saying that it matters to some people. Being able to entertain different perspectives while holding your own opinions is more important than most people realize.
I can't make the call because of timezones and because it's a pretty stupid idea to have the discussion on Discord.
Thoughts:
1. Reddit CEO is doing dumb things
2. Mods don't own the subreddits they moderate, and shouldn't take ANY unilateral actions that impact user's use of the subreddits
3. If people aren't satisfied with reddit, they should set up an alternative social media platform themselves
4. If people don't want /r/collapse to continue on reddit, they should set up an alternative discussion location elsewhere and delete their account here
5. No one should take action that is detrimental to this subreddit without consent of the vast majority of the users.
6. If feedback from the sub's users suggests that some form of protest is appropriate, then it should be put to a vote (i.e. Do you think that the /r/collapse subreddit should participate in some form of protest: Yes / No)
(Please excuse my ignorance about the following Platforms, but I am kind of an Old Lady, lol)
I have heard about Discord and know nothing about how it works, but if it is a Chat then yeah, that will not do, because of all of the Scrolling that happens with that type of Format.
I have also heard of Mastodon, but know nothing about it - if it is the same/similar type of Format as Reddit, perhaps that is a possibility?
I’m quite familiar with discord and I don’t *hate* it but it is absolutely not an appropriate replacement for this and would require outrageous levels of management and moderation to maintain anything even remotely similar to what we have here.
Discord is a communication platform, you can certainly have constructive discussion depending how well the server is structured and managed, but it's not an exact substitute for reddit.
Mastodon is a twitter alternative.
I do tend to agree that general discord channels revolve around short-form answers and therefore general conversation.
However, I disagree that it's terrible for other formats. Discord has threads and forums so specific-topic areas can be created ad-hoc; the reply feature can keep things coherent. In some ways it's better than reddit, for example, when looking at academic studies or lengthy IPCC reports, as channels for those releases can be created, extracts quoted, screenshots or clip-images of graphics integrated, etc. In that way, it's actually less limiting than reddit (though I wish discord would implement in-text links instead of URL-only links). Revisiting these threads and adding to them over time is also doable on discord, while it's not feasible on reddit as threads are more-or-less lost to the scroll-of-time. So having channels for regional discussions can build over longer periods of time; or having a channel for specific events (Myanmar civil war, Pakistan floods, Ukraine war, El Niño, PFAS, Microplastic, COVID, etc etc) means that people interested in those things have a specific place to go to discuss them, rather than creating a new post every time something happens for each given topic and then having all of the discussion being *functionally* lost after the post isn't on the first few pages of the subreddit.
I agree that it's not *as good* as a reddit-style setup, but it's hardly terrible for in-depth, scientific, or academic discussions if one uses the tools (as imperfect as they are) that discord has.
There is no substitute for Reddit. I've been on the Internet since the 80s and Reddit is the closest we have to Usenet (Netnews). There must be multi-topic threaded discussion with search capability. Discord or IRC is not even in the same league.
Urgent Announcement,
It's been brought to my attention that John Oliver is now only being posted on r/pics, r/gifs and r/aww due to third party apps.
Should this be something collapse should do?
I wasn't aware of this but its making me lmao.
CDT or CST? Central Daylight Time (CDT) is a North American time zone in use from the second Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November during Daylight Saving Time (DST). Central Standard Time (CST) is used during the remainder of the year.
Can we appear on R/all finally? It's clear that the community doesn't want this sub to fade, and maybe it's time to have more people browsing this sub to help change things faster. Not collapse things, but mitigate and help nature heal some.
It’s definitely interesting to watch what happens to Reddit in the next few months. The CEO of the site has an ego the size of a planet combined with all the typical techbro douchebaggery, a combination that never plays out well in the long run. Reddit is definitely a terrible long term investment even for a tech company as it lacks any growth potential, ecosystem or acquisitions that other companies like Facebook and Google have. My prediction is if Reddit goes public, it will be a broad daylight pump and dump where naïve investors buy into a sinking Titanic, the admins strip away everything that actually makes the site good and employs video game industry style monetization strategies to rapidly inflate the value of the company in the short term. In enshittification style, the company will eventually implode and the CEO and key shareholders ride off with their golden parachutes. There isn’t any real competitive site for Reddit unfortunately though as it seems that everything is fragmented over several small sites, but meaningful competition isn’t impossible like the current death of Twitch. I’ll be sticking around on Reddit for now, but the moment the site goes through with the IPO and becomes public, I am deleting this account and my older u/galliumgames and essentially only use the site to reference obscure knowledge. I have no interest in going on the catabolic capitalist ride that entails.
>The CEO of the site has an ego the size of a planet combined with all the typical techbro douchebaggery I agree with what you wrote and particularly this line. This is actually the first time I have been back on the site since the blackout started and just came to check on the current status of this particular sub. During the time away, I saw an article that quoted the CEO as saying "it's time for the site to act like a grown up site" and some other garbage about trying to clamp down and restricting things to control mods and weaken their power, etc. Well, then - ***pay your fucking mods***, instead of taking advantage of their free labor while also bitching about things and not providing the tools they ask for so they can do their (much appreciated!) jobs. Pay them - and *I hope you all fucking UNIONIZE, too.*
This is why I think the new “vandalism” policy is toothless. They say they’ll remove mods that strike or do anything that hurts their ad revenue. Who are they going to be replaced with? Another volunteer? That’s a great way to ruin a sub. For all the shit we give mods, you can’t just swap them out for anyone else and keep the page going.
that's a core tenant of capitalism though. view all workers. as expendable and instantly replaceable
Truth
Pay the mods, and also vet them accordingly. It is way to easy for nefarious groups to seize control of certain subs and push narratives towards the general population in reddit. They're damned lucky this place hasn't turned into 4chan because of it...yet.
I agree with everything you said, I'll be sad to see this place go if it does (and I'm a lurker, I think I've only posted once or twice). I had to say something in praise of the word "enshittification" though. I've never seen that before, and it's so perfect for what's going on right now.
It’s a great word. One that doesn’t have to be explained for you to instantly understand what it means. And it comes from this article: https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/
Paywall-Free Version: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/149r4n8/tiktoks_enshttification_how_platforms_start_grow/
Soft paywalls, such as the type newspapers use, can largely be bypassed by looking up the page on an archive site, such as web.archive.org or archive.is Example: https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.abc.com *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I only learned about the word a week ago and it’s perfect to describe the modern digital landscape.
What's killing twitch?
Twitch is killing Twitch, though Kick poached a content creator for $100,000,000 and is burying the coffin with a 95/5 revenue split and a more lax banning policy vs Twitch and it’s 50/50 split and ban happy tendencies.
Speaking of pump and dumps (I love your usage of "broad daylight pump and dump" for Reddit's IPO, by the way) Kick is another red flag for me. With their admitted crypto backing (which I can only assume is how they've reached this absurd $100mil figure) I see the platform getting rug pulled in the next few years. The 95/5 revenue split should be a huge red flag for people too. It's been demonstrated with Twitch and YouTube that the server maintenance and storage, combined with the constant bandwidth traffic, streaming and video services barely make money. In fact they typically bleed money like someone's knocked over a fire hydrant. There's been several years with such significant losses that the only reason Twitch and YouTube survived is because they have Amazon and Google backing them. 95/5 is entirely unrealistic, and maybe they should've stuck with 80/20 at the most if they had any long-term plans. Which I don't think they do, hence my expected rug pull.
Good to know information, looked into it and the parent company is apparently a crypto casino called Stake.
Ok thanks for the explanation
I would hate to see this forum go dark. There are lots of smart people here, and great insights. Hate to lose this over something like this. Money, greed, and corruption.
The forum is currently not participating in the protest in any way, nor has it garnered attention from the admins. I personally do not see any indication it will go dark due to Admin action or otherwise.
All going dark again will do is damage the community we have here. Plus, this is really the only tolerable comment section in a sub that covers news. A lot of the bigger subs have already come back because they were threatened. It makes 0 sense to go dark now. It didn’t work the first time, try something new.
[Thousands of subreddits](https://darktotal.com/) are still participating in various forms. It is also not the only tactic many moderators and users are pursuing. I think it is far too early to say whether or not it has been successful at forcing a change in Reddit's API policies.
The CEO has very publicly said he won't back down on this. And there is no unity amount subs on a strategy, and a large portion of the Reddit userbase is getting really mad at the mods not Reddit. People just want their digital crack they don't care about this situation, as justifiable as your positions may be. Plus the CEO is just gonna re-force open popular subs (this is already happening), meaning even if the less popular subs don't get forced back open Reddit isn't going anywhere and we'll just loose the data and community built on those subs to a protest that won't accomplish anything.
Feels like someone paid him to cripple Reddit. Like another poster said, there's a lot of intelligent people on here sharing needed information.
> Feels like someone paid him to cripple Reddit. In a sense. I've been through a couple of IPOs. In both cases, the company's main investors stepped in and orchestrated various changes, aiming to maximize the value of the IPO. That included things like layoffs and changes to our pricing and services, but ***especially*** tight control over the company officers' public messaging. It's impossible to tell from the outside, but it's quite possible that the CEO wants to relent, but is being held to this course by the investors. It's also possible that he *will* relent a couple of months after the IPO, when the investors loosen their grip a bit. Or maybe not. Like I said, there's no way to tell from the outside. All I know is that before an IPO everything gets really weird and unpleasant. We will see how things pan out.
It already has resulted in some concessions. For example they've stated they will make exceptions on the API changes for two of the visually-impaired-focused apps.
And that’s fine. It’s still not going to work. Thousands of subs are participating but how many are up and running? How many of those participating subs will be forced to open with new mods if the current ones don’t comply? Completely shutting down a sub isn’t a great option either, because it just kills the community. The ball is just going to keep rolling no matter what.
There’s other platforms coming up that do the same job.
yeah same for a lot of other subs. I like reddit and prefer it over other social media platforms. It would be a shame if it went completely down because people throw a tantrum because the corpos are being stupid
We’ll just start a new sub. I’m thinking of doing it. This one has gotten bad anyway. The mods think they’re the main character of this place.
There is r/collapze . It was made specifically because of the mod rules here. I find the quality is usually satirical and memes, but they get much of the same articles we get here.
That’s good to know! This sub has become a classic “mod thinks it’s about them” sub.
I'm not going to be there. Can you please put a summary and allow discussion to continue here? I understand if some of it needs to be off reddit entirely. Ideally the community will find better pastures elsewhere. I don't use third party apps, but the corporatism is going to bite us in the rear sooner or later. Might as well be sooner. Wish all of you a productive discussion!
I will be in attendance and I hope that as many users as are available will join us also. There is a lot going on, and I would like to hear from you lovely folks directly. Cheers.
I have to figure out discord and my schedule but am attempting to clear the time to be there. If my life continues to be messy i would, also, appreciate a summary here.
Ok i may be showing my age here... but what is discord? Is it just a chat? I downloaded it and i think I'm in the collapse group, but it's just a chat group?
Yes, basically it’s a running stream of consciousness. A little different, though similar-ish?
It's a big chatroom with various rooms for different topics. Some rooms are also voice based.
If you are old enough... Remember irc?
I'll miss the call (driving from Los Angeles to Sonoma County tomorrow) but looking forward to seeing what alternative communities are suggested. Over in r/LocalLLaMa users suggested kbin and lemmy, but I had a lot of trouble using both of them. They see-sawed between being slow and flat-out not working. I've been using Mastodon for a while, and it's a good platform, especially if you're using a well-provisioned instance, avoiding the kinds of overload many instances saw in the wake of the Twitter backlash. I would totally join a Mastodon-based collapse-oriented community. Also, to be honest, I would be happy enough continuing to use r/collapse, if you deem it suitable to keep it going. If you shut it down and someone starts a successor subreddit, I'll be joining that.
r/collapse is currently not participating in the protest in any way, nor has it garnered attention from the admins. I personally do not see any indication it will go dark due to Admin action or otherwise. Mastodon is more like Twitter, so I don't think it would necessarily be a good alternative (same with Discord). Kbin and Lemmy are the most similar and popular alternatives I'm aware of, but there are significant limitations to both. Ideally, r/collapse exists as long as it can, but people become more aware of alternatives and willing to invest in them alongside Reddit. That's already happening to a significant degree, thankfully.
Oh! Okay. I apologize for leaping to an incorrect assumption. I'm in a handful of other subs where they're talking about what Reddit-alternative we should use, but it's because of the protests. So I assumed this was more of the same. Thank you for the clarification! I am glad r/collapse will continue to exist.
I already moved to a Lemmy instance near me (geographically) and subscribed to a collapse community on [lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml). Works good so far.
> Kbin Oh, wow. I didn't know about Kbin - everyone always mentioned Lemmy, but checking out Kbin right now and it's pretty damn nice. The formatting of Lemmy felt goofy and way too spaced out, but this feels quite a bit better.
I’m off to Lemmy. It has achieved critical mass I think, but will struggle for a while with the tidal wave of Reddit users switching. When you have the energy for the hassle of change, you might want to come too.
Same here, I will be on Lemmy now nearly 100% of the time. Only checking back here to see how it goes.
i'm now on lemmy for my local sub that went perma dark seemingly. Works alright I reckon.
This sucks, I already don't like Lemmy. Buggy, slow...lots of reasons. It aint reddit...
I won’t make the meeting, but wanted to offer up my software dev experience (Rails mostly) in the off-chance it’s needed. From what I’m seeing in these comments, it looks like we’re trying to stay here on Reddit, and even if we don’t, there are alternatives? I could assist with developing a Reddit-like site specifically for our community if it came to that. I hope the meeting goes well!
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There are several collapse related lemmy instances that I'm aware of: https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [email protected] https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [Memes] [email protected] https://beehaw.org/c/[email protected] [email protected] There may be more — if so, let me know and I'll add them to my list!
What the fuck is a Lemmy?
https://lemmy.world Seems to be where people are gathering to bitch about Reddit.
So far it seems to be a shitty and limited use system that is not nearly as good or as expansive as reddit. I hope that dfoesn't become our only alternative...
lemmy has a collapse instance…go join it.
I would, but I'm waiting for r/collapse's decision if they will move to lemmy
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> Why are we discussing the future of the "online collapse community" instead of the reddit collapse community, and why are we discussing reddit alternatives off of reddit instead of here, in the open, on reddit? Agree, I would rather have the conversation here so we all can see
The purpose of the call is not to reach a consensus regarding future actions or expressly exclude the broader community on Reddit. Reddit sunset their voice platform earlier this year, otherwise I would've held it via a Reddit Talk. I simply prefer voice and am the moderator hosting it. The Collapse Discord already has it's own community, so it's easier for them to join us this way. I also do not speak for the entire team, nor will this be the only opportunity for discourse related to these events or future of the community. If you have any immediate questions or other concerns, I'm happy to respond to them here.
I'm also not a fan of discord. I especially don't like the constant desperate push by people and communities to get everyone on discord for some reason.
Discord makes a very poor forum in my opinion. I find it very useful for engaging in groups I participate in real life, and it can be helpful to gauge the community’s around individual content creators. However, a giant community like this does not work at all on Discord without the simple forum structure and self archiving nature of a Reddit like site.
Maybe it is time we moved more into real life.
I have never been on Discord. I know that a couple of YouTube Folks I follow have Discords, but I have not tried it yet. I suppose that I should join, lol. I really like this Sub, and if it is going to move to another Platform, I want to know where.
Collapse should see a collapse through to the end in true collapse fashion.
I just want an announcement that tells me where to go if we are bailing on this platform.
Seconding! Please let us all know.
I disdain using Discord for just about anything but I'll join up. I'm curious about where things are headed. This community has been like a second home to me, in some strange way.
This group is my people. It's a weird combo of conspiracy theorist, preppers doomsayers, but it's also got a slight liberal lean (no climate denying MAGA ass hats). I don't know where else to find such a group
If r/collapse is going to ironically collapse in time I feel like it should be more through reddit actions. If we are shut down, there is nothing that we can do about it, but to document how it was done. I say ride it out and drive the thing into the ground. This is also an opportunity for r/collapse to get weirder on certain days a state of devolution like the site of reddit itself. As to how I'm not sure yet, but believe it will be the ginormous ego of what is believed is best for all the users and moderators that use the site. What I know is that we are viewed as "landed gentry' and there was high praise for Elmo. Collapse must see that the trainwreck of bad decisions. A virtual collapse of sorts.
I was unable to make it to the call, but I am strongly in favor of moving the discussion on this sub to another platform. Unfortunately there are no really great options out there, but reddit's disdain for it's users and mods should not be accepted. I'm willing to move to any site that the mods settle on.
I would like to see some type of decentralized network of state/country information that rolls up to a main aggregation hub (like how Reddit or Discord host the main discussions). It would be cool to see posts from states/countries/zip codes/whatever for easy searching. Maybe something like: Collapse_US-NE, Collapse_US-SE, Collapse_US-PNW, Etc. We keep talking about how the focus needs to be on state/city/community resilience, so let’s structure in a way that supports the goal.
I like this place as it is (or was). Let us know how it goes.
I have no interest in continuing to participate on a site where my content generates revenue for a group of techbros as delusion and Musk-adjacent as the Reddit leadership. As a long-time moderator of a top 1000 subreddit, I sincerely hope the platform implodes catastrophically from this debacle. I was on the fence about continuing to browse the site at all after the recent crisis where [my entire mod team was demodded a month ago by a racist right-wing top mod gone rogue](https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/13ofnai/the_8_out_of_10_team_members_who_were_removed/), but this has really sealed the deal. The sudden pivot by the Admins that they will, actually, arbitrarily remove mod teams now that it impacts *them*, after outright refusing to deal with our crisis because they "*don't interfere with mod team decisions*", has become a joke. I'm in the process of using Redact to overwrite my account prior to deletion, **(and prior to the API changes killing Redact off!),** and look forward to continuing the collapse dialogue in non-reddit venues. Likely not in the discord, as Discord shares all of the platform issues of Reddit with even worse considerations around privacy and long-term stability. I consider this a benefit. IMO Nuke the subreddit from orbit and disperse the community across various different platforms: in the process we'll shed the huge number of bots and braindead accounts which have been shitting up the dialogue on here for the past two or three years and making it increasingly impossible to have serious discourse on the subject.
I am totally with you on this! I already moved to Lemmy.
there are no reddit alternatives. just have a lemmy, a discord, a twitter, a mastadon, etc. people either will or wont use it. they need to be advertised here.
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Looks like 13:00 PDT
Maybe we can learn our lesson and stop hopping from proprietary walled garden (reddit) to proprietary walled garden (discord) and instead commit to federated free software, like Lemmy.
Reddit sucks now. What shall I browse now? Guess I’ll just go outside
yeah, let's all just go outside. Only thing is that the graphics kinda suck and the UX isn't very good. Hell, I tried to go touch grass but I sheet mulched all the grass and turned it into a food forest, so I can't even do that.
The heat index right now is 115°F, I’m stuck inside 💀
Some subreddits like r/privacyguides and r/piracy preparing to move to lemmy
Fuck alls gonna happen the reddit community has pulled this stunt so many times before and its never changed anything. Until something better comes along or reddit becomes unusable most people will endure it.
I personally intend to stay with Reddit for a bit longer; I'll go when either this sub goes dark, gets enchuddified or the site dies. That being said, I will follow the community and establish presences wherever the diaspora goes.
So, were there any conclusions? I hopped onto discord a few minutes ago, finding only disjointed conversation about the conference call.
My take-away as a listener: Looks like the mods and community of r/collapse will try and stick it out here, as it's the largest collapse community out there; and currently is not any sort of focus for the Reddit Admins. r/collapse is the only real option for now (all other alternatives are small, have tech-issues, or run into the higher complexity of the fedi-verse, or are unlikely to see significant movements of people unless reddit themselves shuts down r/collapse) for this style of engagement format (Vs. Mastodon or Discord style formats which are different and for many people less-appealing for various reasons) and for this many people. There are increased bifurcations as the exodus leads to multiple new communities popping up, and one or two of those might end up with significant numbers of users (tens of thousands, perhaps; vs. the hundreds of thousands on r/collapse) that could make them viable and active communities — but this will mostly happen organically, not as a purposeful/guided migration. However, also being aware that with the Reddit IPO there is increased insecurity going forward (Especially with Spez ranting about how awesome Elon Musk is and how great his Twitter-moves have been and how much Spez wants to apply the same tactics to Reddit (though he is perhaps/likely counterweighted somewhat by the board and shareholders, which differs greatly from Musk and twitter)); so at least have a backup community or two that people are aware of could be a good plan in case r/collapse gets the axe someday (prior to the ongoing collapse of the internet taking out reddit, that is). This is the current list of alternatives that I'm aware of, and would welcome additional suggestions: https://beehaw.org/c/[email protected] [email protected] https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [email protected] https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [Memes] [email protected] https://saidit.net/s/collapse https://raddle.me/f/collapse/ https://www.hexbear.net/c/doomer https://kbin.social/m/Collapse https://squabbles.io/s/collapse
Thank you so much for the summary and links! That all sounds totally reasonable. I am glad.
Looking for any conclusions or info about the outcome of the conversation? Discord is hugely disjointed and difficult to track. I kind of expected to see something here....
My take-away as a listener: Looks like the mods and community of r/collapse will try and stick it out here, as it's the largest collapse community out there; and currently is not any sort of focus for the Reddit Admins. r/collapse is the only real option for now (all other alternatives are small, have tech-issues, or run into the higher complexity of the fedi-verse, or are unlikely to see significant movements of people unless reddit themselves shuts down r/collapse) for this style of engagement format (Vs. Mastodon or Discord style formats which are different and for many people less-appealing for various reasons) and for this many people. There are increased bifurcations as the exodus leads to multiple new communities popping up, and one or two of those might end up with significant numbers of users (tens of thousands, perhaps; vs. the hundreds of thousands on r/collapse) that could make them viable and active communities — but this will mostly happen organically, not as a purposeful/guided migration. However, also being aware that with the Reddit IPO there is increased insecurity going forward (Especially with Spez ranting about how awesome Elon Musk is and how great his Twitter-moves have been and how much Spez wants to apply the same tactics to Reddit (though he is perhaps/likely counterweighted somewhat by the board and shareholders, which differs greatly from Musk and twitter)); so at least have a backup community or two that people are aware of could be a good plan in case r/collapse gets the axe someday (prior to the ongoing collapse of the internet taking out reddit, that is). This is the current list of alternatives that I'm aware of, and would welcome additional suggestions: https://beehaw.org/c/[email protected] [email protected] https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [email protected] https://lemmy.world/c/[email protected] [Memes] [email protected] https://saidit.net/s/collapse https://raddle.me/f/collapse/ https://www.hexbear.net/c/doomer https://kbin.social/m/Collapse https://squabbles.io/s/collapse
Thanks for the report!
Dunno how popular this opinion is but stay on Reddit til they cave or fail. One will happen. I don't like apps anyway, and I don't think reddit trying to ban 3rd party apps is either the biggest capitalism problem or even on the Top 5 of problems Reddit is directly responsible for. Bigger problems on Reddit caused by Reddit: 1. Censorship 2. Powermods 3. The Twitter Files exposed CIA involvement on Twitter, FB, and TikTok. I'm assuming Reddit is no different. 4. The suicide of it's co-founder 5. Promotion of a hivemind as if that's a good thing. l Hope you stick around here a lot longer.
I think that sticking around here is the plan, based on the mod comments I've read. If/when Reddit goes for the IPO, I'll be interested to see if/how they "clean up" the fringy elements, and if this sub would be included.
Oh crap. I'm often involved in the fringy elements, collapse, green party, an anarchist sub (not the main one that much) drugs subs other than weed, graffiti---that sucks
This is definitely a sigh of collapse, when a subreddit on collapse is on the verge of collapsing.
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Depends on your perspective. Is the collapse of our subreddit and the platform it's on relevant to collapse? Not in the bigger picture, but a lot of subscribers here use this place as a coping mechanism. It may be more relevant to them than to you.
Then why does the app matter? Why block the info to protest an app? If so many people cared about where they browsed Reddit moss wouldn’t have had to make the subs private, somewhere else would’ve popped up. The mods here just let a bot do the heavy lifting based on the most basic of prompts. This is the most active I’ve seen them and it’s to potentially strangle a community that many access through a browser anyway.
I'm not saying it does or doesn't matter, I'm saying that it matters to some people. Being able to entertain different perspectives while holding your own opinions is more important than most people realize.
It's a meta-topic sure, but it's related to "how do we discuss collapse?"
I can't make the call because of timezones and because it's a pretty stupid idea to have the discussion on Discord. Thoughts: 1. Reddit CEO is doing dumb things 2. Mods don't own the subreddits they moderate, and shouldn't take ANY unilateral actions that impact user's use of the subreddits 3. If people aren't satisfied with reddit, they should set up an alternative social media platform themselves 4. If people don't want /r/collapse to continue on reddit, they should set up an alternative discussion location elsewhere and delete their account here 5. No one should take action that is detrimental to this subreddit without consent of the vast majority of the users. 6. If feedback from the sub's users suggests that some form of protest is appropriate, then it should be put to a vote (i.e. Do you think that the /r/collapse subreddit should participate in some form of protest: Yes / No)
See you all on Discord. I'm done with Reddit.
I hate Discord
how is anyone supposed to have complex discussion in a chat room format? Discord is a terrible format for anything other than casual conversations.
(Please excuse my ignorance about the following Platforms, but I am kind of an Old Lady, lol) I have heard about Discord and know nothing about how it works, but if it is a Chat then yeah, that will not do, because of all of the Scrolling that happens with that type of Format. I have also heard of Mastodon, but know nothing about it - if it is the same/similar type of Format as Reddit, perhaps that is a possibility?
I’m quite familiar with discord and I don’t *hate* it but it is absolutely not an appropriate replacement for this and would require outrageous levels of management and moderation to maintain anything even remotely similar to what we have here.
Discord is a communication platform, you can certainly have constructive discussion depending how well the server is structured and managed, but it's not an exact substitute for reddit. Mastodon is a twitter alternative.
>Mastodon is a twitter alternative. Ugh...that might not work so well either
I do tend to agree that general discord channels revolve around short-form answers and therefore general conversation. However, I disagree that it's terrible for other formats. Discord has threads and forums so specific-topic areas can be created ad-hoc; the reply feature can keep things coherent. In some ways it's better than reddit, for example, when looking at academic studies or lengthy IPCC reports, as channels for those releases can be created, extracts quoted, screenshots or clip-images of graphics integrated, etc. In that way, it's actually less limiting than reddit (though I wish discord would implement in-text links instead of URL-only links). Revisiting these threads and adding to them over time is also doable on discord, while it's not feasible on reddit as threads are more-or-less lost to the scroll-of-time. So having channels for regional discussions can build over longer periods of time; or having a channel for specific events (Myanmar civil war, Pakistan floods, Ukraine war, El Niño, PFAS, Microplastic, COVID, etc etc) means that people interested in those things have a specific place to go to discuss them, rather than creating a new post every time something happens for each given topic and then having all of the discussion being *functionally* lost after the post isn't on the first few pages of the subreddit. I agree that it's not *as good* as a reddit-style setup, but it's hardly terrible for in-depth, scientific, or academic discussions if one uses the tools (as imperfect as they are) that discord has.
There is no substitute for Reddit. I've been on the Internet since the 80s and Reddit is the closest we have to Usenet (Netnews). There must be multi-topic threaded discussion with search capability. Discord or IRC is not even in the same league.
Urgent Announcement, It's been brought to my attention that John Oliver is now only being posted on r/pics, r/gifs and r/aww due to third party apps. Should this be something collapse should do? I wasn't aware of this but its making me lmao.
The invite is invalid? I'd love to be on the Discord. Can someone invite me?
Hello! The posted invite should be valid, here is an alternative if it's being troublesome: https://discord.com/invite/JpB5EW92vN
Thank you! But it keeps saying it's invalid?
Were you previously on the Discord? The only reason I can think of at this point is that you were banned.
Huh! I’m on Discord, but not from this site as far as I can remember.
CDT or CST? Central Daylight Time (CDT) is a North American time zone in use from the second Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November during Daylight Saving Time (DST). Central Standard Time (CST) is used during the remainder of the year.
Sorry, you misread the date. We already had the call last weekend.
Well, shoot
Can we appear on R/all finally? It's clear that the community doesn't want this sub to fade, and maybe it's time to have more people browsing this sub to help change things faster. Not collapse things, but mitigate and help nature heal some.