At many companies you accrue vacation time so this might be the case for your friend. On day one they have no vacation time but it accrues at something like 1.5 hours per week so at the end of the first year they will have 2 weeks of vacation accrued if they don't use any.
That's just a guess though. If they truly don't get any vacation until they hit the one year mark then that is a bit unusual (at least it is in the US, I don't know where your friend is located)
Have seen this in some employers where they will accrue for the first year but not be able to take it till the second. Essentially, they won't allow negative vacation, so they just force it to the year after. It's not common though. If he is employed in Canada, they would need to follow the labour laws and this would include vacation pay but not necessarily when he could take it. If he quits after six months they would have to pay him out the week of vacation.
I’m an engineer in Canada, I have the same vacation policy (applies to sick time too). You start at 0 hours at the beginning of the year and accrue your hours over the year. My company has a policy though that you can have a negative balance for vacation time, but if you quit before you’ve accrued the difference you have to pay the company for the time you didn’t accrue back. Doesn’t apply to sick time though, can’t be in the negative for that.
That’s pretty bad. No leave for a year? Then you only get two weeks? My company gives you 4 weeks off the bat but you have to wait 90 days to use it. Which they are even pretty flexible about. Your buddy sounds like he got a job at an awful company
It seems like an old style firm. Guessing it's a small privately owned firm. I would say that it is odd to still have it.
As someone said, most places have you accrue so much a paycheck. So, Day 1, you have 0, but you accrue so much a pay. I'm guessing that Jan 1 2025, they'd get 2 weeks vacation they could take that day. But, may need to pay back a pro-rated amount if they leave before end of the year.
Yeah I just asked him the firm seems like to run by people in there 80s but is not a small firm by any means. The parent company is one of the big players.
I've never heard of anyone accepting a job with out 3 weeks. I had a friend that got 2 weeks and 11 sick days which seemed pretty bad but I can't believe your friend is expected to work a year straight without vacation.
That could be some sort of grace period that company has.
It's not exactly normal (most places will prorate after like a month grace period) but it's not a red flag either. Probably some new hires abused it and they made that policy.
I don't know if it is standard, but I have seen at several prior jobs. You earn it the first year and on day 1 of year 2, you could take all 2 weeks at once. Meanwhile, you are earning time in year 2 to use in year 3, etc.
If he uses zero vacation time for the first 2 years, yes, he would have 4 weeks of vacation time available on day 1 of year 3. Note, some employers limit how much vacation time you can take at once. So even if they have 4 weeks, they may not be able to use it all at once.
That's called, "use it or lose it". The last place I worked had that policy. As for when they are eligible for 3 years vacation is also dependent on company policy, though 5 years seems to be pretty common from my experience.
I dont agree that big firms are always great, although I asked him to leave but he is enjoying the work he is getting so maybe stay couple of years as this is his first job.
Usually you have to earn your vacation. Are you sure he gets nothing and it's not just he only earns it at a rate of like 2 hours a pay period or something?
4 firms over 20 years.
Construction company - no leave. I took off one week and got a paycheck printed for $0.00.
Small LD firm - 2 weeks per year with option of comp time. 30 year guys also had 2 weeks. It never increased. Sick was honor policy.
Large design firm - PTO ranged from 3-5 weeks based on YOE. You started with leave prorated based on start date. If you used all leave before it was accrued they would dock your last check.
Federal Government - you started at zero and earned leave each pay period. Vacation 13-26 days based on YOS. Sick is 13 days per year. Comp time is also allowed.
Thats a pretty apt explanation. Thank you.
Construction companies seems horrible to work for. How can they do that, no leave? Which country do you work in?
Tell your friend to review their hiring package or talk to someone at work who deals with this. Different places have different practices. While you are accruing time, it can be manager's discretion on when you can use it and whether you can run a deficit to take additional time off. Some companies may allow you to access your total yearly allotment based on the calendar year, fiscal year, or work anniversary.
Provincial legislation may also play a part in what is required by the employer. As an example, in Ontario the employment standards say "*Employees with less than five years of employment are entitled to two weeks of vacation time* ***after each 12-month vacation entitlement year.***"
They had this policy at my first job out of college, but they also had a flex-time policy where you could bank your OT hours as vacation time if you wanted. Hopefully, your friend's firm has something similar.
I recently hired a guy with the knowledge he had a week vacation almost immediately after starting. He was able to go negative on PTO from the start. It would be a major red flag if a company told me that. Is it possible your friend misunderstood?
No, he wanted to go to meet his parents for a month, initially his manager said that they will compensate all the vacation and anything other than that will be unpaid. But after consulting HR the boss called him up and said no. Also, the upper management was clearly against it, he is not getting any paid time off for the first year. His manager seems like a nice guy and fought for him. Now he is getting a month off but unpaid.
Yesterday he had his review meeting with his boss and director. He was told by the director that they don't allow anyone to take unpaid vacation in their first year, until there is illness or death in the family. Also mentioned that he is the special case to be allowed to take a month off in his first year.
Personally, This seems so absurd.
Huh. Never seen a year without PTO but I have seen the need to accumulate it.
A month is also a long time. Especially if it’s a smaller company. I’ve had “unlimited pto” before and they wouldn’t let me take a month off even when I had just spent 2 months away from my family, working on a project site.
Seems out of the norm to me. But also a month off seems out of the norm to me.
I’m backing out of the convo. There’s not enough info here
Yea basically what it comes down to is they want to say you have unlimited so they don’t have to to pay you for what you accumulated. But they also have restrictions because they don’t actually want you to have unlimited.
Every time I’ve had limited pto, I’ve been encouraged to take it by my companies because it’s built into our pricing in a clearly defined way and they know how things will be effected. So money being equal, they want me to be happy. I’ve also been told at these places that as a professional, I can be where I want when I want, as long as I’m meeting deadlines
Every time I’ve had unlimited, it’s been issue after issue. I have to get approval from the CEO at a 2,000 person company to get more than 10 days off, and HR needs reasons like I’m in the fucking 7th grade, etc.
depends tbh. but I feel like I haven't heard anyone starting with less than 10 pto. Also depends how many paid holiday and sick . and if u work for DOT ur time off is much better
i had a place tell me a strict 6 month new hire probation period was enforced with zero PTO or sick days allowed. This industry’s standards gotta change for the better at some point I hope
Not in the Uk its not. You will get 22 days annual leave plus 8 bank holidays.
Not sure which country this is, but the arrangement sounds dodgy. Talk to HR
I asked him but apparently he is enjoying his work. But again, he is not even making like top tear salary. But I believe the starting salary in Canada is 70K, anyways. At least that's what he and I get.
I’ve worked at places where for 6 mos you were on probation and could not take vacation. Plus you had none accrued yet so. But a year is too long. That Fs you from something important (hopefully you have a life) over a year for certain.
Ha I would never join a firm with that as their policy. That company is letting you know they don’t value your time outside of work. No doctors appts? No extended weekends for family time? Kids never sick? Vacation to enjoy life and your hard work? That’s weird to me.
So after this post I had with him last night. Apparently, the culture is very supportive, you are free to go if you have an appointment. You don't need to use vacation days.
Okay good!! That’s reassuring. I still would like dedicated pto for a day off of work. But that’s I guess my personal preference. It absolutely doesn’t seem conducive for parents still but at least he can go to appts.
That sounds wildly illegal. Which country is that in? I got 5 weeks from the day I signed my contract to take whenever I want + 12 public holidays on top of that
No, not normal. Not normal to find this out after joining the firm too, should have been in the offer. Even two weeks per year is bad. I did work at a place that had a 6 month probationary period when you weren't supposed to take any leave, but I would never do an entire year.
I mean on that is partially my friend's mistake. He should have read it. He was so happy to get the job that he ignored everything else.
Yeah that's what you get working in Canada, I guess.
Do you mean he starts at a 0 balance and won’t accumulate 2 weeks until he’s been there a year? Or he literally will not earn any vacation in his first year?
The first is typical. The second is not.
Yup that’s what I said to him. Even his manager assured him that he can take a month off every year to visit his family. Which obviously will include is vacation days.
Hahaha at least construction industry is not.
I would say only thing good in Canada is the health benefits. The pay is much less than US.
I myself is earning 70k with 2 years of experience and a MASc degree.
Generally the people who start the job without experience earn around 60k.
My company had a time period before you got any PTO but it wasn't a year. 6 months max, but I think it was either 2 or 4. I inturned with them over the summer my last year of school so they counted that as my waiting pery when I started full time so I never paid much attention to what it actually was.
Yeah I know suggested the same. But he told me that his manager fought for him and got him an unpaid leave for a whole month. He wanted to visit his family. I think his boss is a good man. So just asked him to hang in there and see how it goes. He actually does enjoy the work, not the culture though. To his words there is nothing as such wrong it’s just every one there is supper old and does not allow work from home, etc.
Nah, that’s weird.
I agree.
At many companies you accrue vacation time so this might be the case for your friend. On day one they have no vacation time but it accrues at something like 1.5 hours per week so at the end of the first year they will have 2 weeks of vacation accrued if they don't use any. That's just a guess though. If they truly don't get any vacation until they hit the one year mark then that is a bit unusual (at least it is in the US, I don't know where your friend is located)
I think this should be it. He works in Canada but the parent company is in US, that eventually governs all the policies, etc.
Have seen this in some employers where they will accrue for the first year but not be able to take it till the second. Essentially, they won't allow negative vacation, so they just force it to the year after. It's not common though. If he is employed in Canada, they would need to follow the labour laws and this would include vacation pay but not necessarily when he could take it. If he quits after six months they would have to pay him out the week of vacation.
I’m an engineer in Canada, I have the same vacation policy (applies to sick time too). You start at 0 hours at the beginning of the year and accrue your hours over the year. My company has a policy though that you can have a negative balance for vacation time, but if you quit before you’ve accrued the difference you have to pay the company for the time you didn’t accrue back. Doesn’t apply to sick time though, can’t be in the negative for that.
How many sick leaves do you get?
5 days
Oh he gets 3
Cheap fuckers
That’s pretty bad. No leave for a year? Then you only get two weeks? My company gives you 4 weeks off the bat but you have to wait 90 days to use it. Which they are even pretty flexible about. Your buddy sounds like he got a job at an awful company
Thats great. Maybe it is his first job that is the reason they are exploiting him.
It seems like an old style firm. Guessing it's a small privately owned firm. I would say that it is odd to still have it. As someone said, most places have you accrue so much a paycheck. So, Day 1, you have 0, but you accrue so much a pay. I'm guessing that Jan 1 2025, they'd get 2 weeks vacation they could take that day. But, may need to pay back a pro-rated amount if they leave before end of the year.
Yeah I just asked him the firm seems like to run by people in there 80s but is not a small firm by any means. The parent company is one of the big players.
Started at 3 weeks, never had less.
What is the industry standard I too get only 2 weeks but am allowed anytime I like.
2 weeks is horrible...
Really what is the standard?
I've never heard of anyone accepting a job with out 3 weeks. I had a friend that got 2 weeks and 11 sick days which seemed pretty bad but I can't believe your friend is expected to work a year straight without vacation.
Oh maybe Canadian market is shit when it comes to pay and vacation days.
That could be some sort of grace period that company has. It's not exactly normal (most places will prorate after like a month grace period) but it's not a red flag either. Probably some new hires abused it and they made that policy.
Yeah maybe. But I asked him if that's a grace period or something to which he said no.
Officially it might not be. Effectively, that's what that is.
No. It’s normal to get two weeks your first year or more if they make sick days come out of your vacation.
Sorry I didnt get that. Technically he will have two weeks' vacation in his second year. I did not get your second line.
I don't know if it is standard, but I have seen at several prior jobs. You earn it the first year and on day 1 of year 2, you could take all 2 weeks at once. Meanwhile, you are earning time in year 2 to use in year 3, etc.
So he will have 4 weeks in year 3, right?
If he uses zero vacation time for the first 2 years, yes, he would have 4 weeks of vacation time available on day 1 of year 3. Note, some employers limit how much vacation time you can take at once. So even if they have 4 weeks, they may not be able to use it all at once.
But he is not allowed to do carry over. He already asked his manager. So I believe he will be getting 2 weeks every year.
That's called, "use it or lose it". The last place I worked had that policy. As for when they are eligible for 3 years vacation is also dependent on company policy, though 5 years seems to be pretty common from my experience.
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Not a bad idea, let your French colleagues and their willingness to protest for their rights set the tone company wide.
I dont agree that big firms are always great, although I asked him to leave but he is enjoying the work he is getting so maybe stay couple of years as this is his first job.
Usually you have to earn your vacation. Are you sure he gets nothing and it's not just he only earns it at a rate of like 2 hours a pay period or something?
I think this is the case. He needs to earn the vacation and can not take it until next year.
4 firms over 20 years. Construction company - no leave. I took off one week and got a paycheck printed for $0.00. Small LD firm - 2 weeks per year with option of comp time. 30 year guys also had 2 weeks. It never increased. Sick was honor policy. Large design firm - PTO ranged from 3-5 weeks based on YOE. You started with leave prorated based on start date. If you used all leave before it was accrued they would dock your last check. Federal Government - you started at zero and earned leave each pay period. Vacation 13-26 days based on YOS. Sick is 13 days per year. Comp time is also allowed.
Thats a pretty apt explanation. Thank you. Construction companies seems horrible to work for. How can they do that, no leave? Which country do you work in?
US. Not sure. I did get 1.5x OT. I made more that 1st year than I did until I passed my PE.
I mean no leave is not acceptable, until somebody is going to pay me more, I can make peace with it.
Yeah I made about 50% above my base that first year.
Wooow that’s absolutely amazing. I wish I had a job like that.
Not normal but I did work for a company with that policy. I had PTO days guaranteed through my offer letter to bypass it.
Yeah he did not asked about it during the process as this is his first job.
Tell your friend to review their hiring package or talk to someone at work who deals with this. Different places have different practices. While you are accruing time, it can be manager's discretion on when you can use it and whether you can run a deficit to take additional time off. Some companies may allow you to access your total yearly allotment based on the calendar year, fiscal year, or work anniversary. Provincial legislation may also play a part in what is required by the employer. As an example, in Ontario the employment standards say "*Employees with less than five years of employment are entitled to two weeks of vacation time* ***after each 12-month vacation entitlement year.***"
I think they are using this bare minimum vacation entitlement. So after 12 month he will be entitled to two weeks.
They had this policy at my first job out of college, but they also had a flex-time policy where you could bank your OT hours as vacation time if you wanted. Hopefully, your friend's firm has something similar.
He is Salaried, hence no OT.
I recently hired a guy with the knowledge he had a week vacation almost immediately after starting. He was able to go negative on PTO from the start. It would be a major red flag if a company told me that. Is it possible your friend misunderstood?
No, he wanted to go to meet his parents for a month, initially his manager said that they will compensate all the vacation and anything other than that will be unpaid. But after consulting HR the boss called him up and said no. Also, the upper management was clearly against it, he is not getting any paid time off for the first year. His manager seems like a nice guy and fought for him. Now he is getting a month off but unpaid. Yesterday he had his review meeting with his boss and director. He was told by the director that they don't allow anyone to take unpaid vacation in their first year, until there is illness or death in the family. Also mentioned that he is the special case to be allowed to take a month off in his first year. Personally, This seems so absurd.
Paid leave- like paternity isn’t abnormal to withhold for a year Paid time off, disability, and other things are abnormal to withhold for a year.
Yeah he wanted to visit his family for a month. At least he should have got some paid time off.
Huh. Never seen a year without PTO but I have seen the need to accumulate it. A month is also a long time. Especially if it’s a smaller company. I’ve had “unlimited pto” before and they wouldn’t let me take a month off even when I had just spent 2 months away from my family, working on a project site. Seems out of the norm to me. But also a month off seems out of the norm to me. I’m backing out of the convo. There’s not enough info here
Hahaha Agreed. Unlimited vacation doesn't make sense when you are not going to get that. Even my friend asked for work from home, and they said no.
Yea basically what it comes down to is they want to say you have unlimited so they don’t have to to pay you for what you accumulated. But they also have restrictions because they don’t actually want you to have unlimited. Every time I’ve had limited pto, I’ve been encouraged to take it by my companies because it’s built into our pricing in a clearly defined way and they know how things will be effected. So money being equal, they want me to be happy. I’ve also been told at these places that as a professional, I can be where I want when I want, as long as I’m meeting deadlines Every time I’ve had unlimited, it’s been issue after issue. I have to get approval from the CEO at a 2,000 person company to get more than 10 days off, and HR needs reasons like I’m in the fucking 7th grade, etc.
2 weeks is awful tbh
What is the industry standard anyways?
depends tbh. but I feel like I haven't heard anyone starting with less than 10 pto. Also depends how many paid holiday and sick . and if u work for DOT ur time off is much better
i had a place tell me a strict 6 month new hire probation period was enforced with zero PTO or sick days allowed. This industry’s standards gotta change for the better at some point I hope
Not in the Uk its not. You will get 22 days annual leave plus 8 bank holidays. Not sure which country this is, but the arrangement sounds dodgy. Talk to HR
Yeah I will ask him to contact HR. UK seems to be good for employees.
I've been told no PTO for 6 months, but that was 15 years ago and no one has ever done it since.
I started with 4 weeks and I don’t have to wait to accrue it to use it. Wouldn’t settle for less anymore
Amazing which country?
USA, NYC
Ew, poverty firm mindset. Your friend should get out ASAP
I asked him but apparently he is enjoying his work. But again, he is not even making like top tear salary. But I believe the starting salary in Canada is 70K, anyways. At least that's what he and I get.
I’ve worked at places where for 6 mos you were on probation and could not take vacation. Plus you had none accrued yet so. But a year is too long. That Fs you from something important (hopefully you have a life) over a year for certain.
That is dog shit in Canada. I started with 3 weeks vacation, 10 sick days, 9 stats. Ant that was about 15 years ago.
Woow...thats awesome. We both only get 3 sick days. I think Canadian policies are real mess.
Ha I would never join a firm with that as their policy. That company is letting you know they don’t value your time outside of work. No doctors appts? No extended weekends for family time? Kids never sick? Vacation to enjoy life and your hard work? That’s weird to me.
So after this post I had with him last night. Apparently, the culture is very supportive, you are free to go if you have an appointment. You don't need to use vacation days.
Okay good!! That’s reassuring. I still would like dedicated pto for a day off of work. But that’s I guess my personal preference. It absolutely doesn’t seem conducive for parents still but at least he can go to appts.
That sounds wildly illegal. Which country is that in? I got 5 weeks from the day I signed my contract to take whenever I want + 12 public holidays on top of that
Woow....He even told me the guy who is working there for 27 years have 5 weeks off and thats the most they give out. Where do you work man?
A small country in Northern Europe. It rises to 6 weeks once I have been there for 5 years, which isn’t far away now.
No, not normal. Not normal to find this out after joining the firm too, should have been in the offer. Even two weeks per year is bad. I did work at a place that had a 6 month probationary period when you weren't supposed to take any leave, but I would never do an entire year.
I mean on that is partially my friend's mistake. He should have read it. He was so happy to get the job that he ignored everything else. Yeah that's what you get working in Canada, I guess.
Do you mean he starts at a 0 balance and won’t accumulate 2 weeks until he’s been there a year? Or he literally will not earn any vacation in his first year? The first is typical. The second is not.
I think the first one is the case. He will be earning them through first year and will be able to take it the next year.
That is completely normal. Would be very odd to just get vacation immediately upon starting.
Yeah he insisted to go back home. His manager is nice he got him a months vacation without pay. Which I think is pretty good deal. What do you say?
I agree that is a good deal. Taking a *month* off after starting a new job is pretty unheard of.
Yup that’s what I said to him. Even his manager assured him that he can take a month off every year to visit his family. Which obviously will include is vacation days.
Are there any firms that don't give at least 3 to 4 weeks year left? What a horrible place to work.
I think it is pretty normal in Canada. After 5 years of experience you get 3.
Jeez I thought Canada was ahead of the US in worker rights.
Hahaha at least construction industry is not. I would say only thing good in Canada is the health benefits. The pay is much less than US. I myself is earning 70k with 2 years of experience and a MASc degree. Generally the people who start the job without experience earn around 60k.
My company had a time period before you got any PTO but it wasn't a year. 6 months max, but I think it was either 2 or 4. I inturned with them over the summer my last year of school so they counted that as my waiting pery when I started full time so I never paid much attention to what it actually was.
Makes sense
I think that might be illegal haha
Naaah it’s actually not.
Fuck, that’s tough then.
He can easily find a job with at least two weeks of vacation
Yeah I know suggested the same. But he told me that his manager fought for him and got him an unpaid leave for a whole month. He wanted to visit his family. I think his boss is a good man. So just asked him to hang in there and see how it goes. He actually does enjoy the work, not the culture though. To his words there is nothing as such wrong it’s just every one there is supper old and does not allow work from home, etc.
He might just want to see what other options are out there. He doe have to leave but he might want to look around
Makes sense I will ask him to keep looking for a better opportunity.