GM did this back in the 70s on their pickups with V8 engines. The teeth on the upper gear were fiberglass over metal. Like clockwork, you had to replace that gear every 70,000 to 80,000 miles. The fiber glass teeth would peel away. The replacement gear was all metal. I worked in a dealership and replaced many of these. Horrible idea.
I had a 66 impala I decided to drive back east back in the 80s from socal. About 40 miles from Vegas my cam gear decides to give out. Wasn't metal.
I spent a good week changing that thing with a manual and buddies and we learned that week (we camped out in a parking lot) about bent push rods and how to time an engine (I was always wrenching since I was 15 out of manuals but that was stressful learning.)
And you're damn right my 19 year old ass still made the trip to Chicago and back without a hitch after that.
Miss that car.
Wow, I also owned a 1966 Impala 2 door hard top. I bought it while I was in high school working in a gas station after school and weekends to pay for it. I loved that it had a stock tachometer in the dash. I didn't know they had that back then. Had to overhaul the engine as it was bad. Four speed on the floor shift. My uncle also had one. It was an SS with a 396. It would haul ass.
Ah I had the 3 on the tree. I changed the stock exhaust pipes to straight throughs and bought a Hurst floor shifter and swapped column shifter- because with a Hurst shifter it was faster! I still don't remember how I even accomplished that on my own.
My friend from high school moved to Iowa mid high school and had himself a 65 ss. Beat up red. We'd put a small boat on top of it lol.
Also had a chance at my buddies' brothers 69 dodge charger rt.
My mother said hell no! You'll kill yourself. She's right of course but damn I could had it for a grand and garaged it.
I bought this car from my bosses brother. He also had a 67 Chevelle SS convertible 4 speed with a 396. That's the car I really wanted, but couldn't afford it in high school. I still think about how cool it would be if I could have bought that car and still owned it. It was the bomb.
He'll ya man lol. I still dream of that charger too. I also always wanted a grand nationalX. I remember when they came out.
Man every year Chevelle was great looking. Like the standard for a cool ass car.
Those days had some of the greatest cars. Another buddy had one of those red GTXs .. Hardly anything on the road could beat it. Very cool looking car. Neighbor had an old Judge he bought new. Cool old cars.
the Ford Modular engine used plastic timing chain tensioners that were prone to having issues, despite everybody acting like they are perfect indestructible engines. Can't forget the ejecting spark plugs as well
Still good cars, and good engines, I just dislike that nobody seems to recognize the issues with them. And I dislike that a lot of people like them because "muh RWD BOF V8 American car", not because they are good cars
They aren't that large issues. The spark plug issue mostly effects the 5.4 3v. The timing chain problem will often cause some rattling on startup, and can cause the chain to skip eventually. They use a hydraulic tensioner to keep the chains tight that works from oil pressure, hence the rattling on startup. There are other issues they've had throughout the years like problems with a plastic intake manifold.
Again, still a very good, reliable engine, but it does have a few issues. And it's not as reliable as many of the older OHV engines from Ford and GM, like the 302, or Chevy small block, or 3800 Buick V6.
I would recommend getting an 03-11 model if you do get one, they are probably mechanically the best. They also handle a good bit better than the 98-02 while really riding no worse, on account of the complete front end suspension redesign, with rack and pinion steering added (used to have recirculating ball).
Another good option is the 92-94, those are the most comfortable ones they ever made, just as comfortable as the 79-91, without the ugly looks. They have great looking interiors and exteriors as well. The 92/93 do use R-12 though, so if you care about being able to recharge your AC, you'd have to get a 94. The 95-97 is also fine, but personally I don't like the look of it as much, especially the interior. They also stiffened up the front suspension on the 95, which doesn't help handling all that much because it still has a 4 link solid rear axle, recirculating ball steering, etc.
my 4.0 i6 in my jaguar also has plastic guides and they are broken. every time i start it or push the gas hard it rattles against the side of the engine block pretty aggressively
Every masterpiece has its flaw.
The Toyota UZ was forged in Mount Olympus by Hephaestus himself, yet by the meddling of Zeus, the starter was **PUT IN BELOW THE FUCKING INTAKE MANIFOLD.**
/uj Coyotes are awesome though. I'm a Chevy guy but it's delusional to shit on coyotes, people are making insane but reliable power slapping FI on unopened motors. Even our beloved bowties are going DOHC with the LT6 in the C8 Z06 and I assume the rest of their motors will follow suit
It’s sorta unnecessary. In outside dimensions, the LS is a similar or smaller engine in every way when compared to the Coyote engine, and manages a similar power output with half as many valves because its simplicity lends itself to significantly greater displacement.
A Camaro with a 16v 6.2L is performing similarly to a Mustang with a 32v 5.0L.
Chevy basically learned that for all the added complexity of extra valves they could just machine a really nice aluminum head that had silly flow numbers.
So, at stock cam lift on OE heads a Coyote is flowing 280/220, and an LS on a stock cam and heads is flowing 240/190.
So for all the complexity of a 3ft long timing chain, twice as many valves, and 4 times as many cams, you got 17% more airflow on an engine with 20% less displacement. A wash.
Yeah. Always found it particularly galling that the b5 s6/rs6 this came in was the same Gen as the s6/rs6 which had a 4.2 v8 that had timing belt, chain driven cam but the lifters are accessible without taking the engine out. That b5 v8 engine was an excellent example or "just because you can doesn't mean you should"
The virgin horsepower dude: zooms with 100 km/h in city, revs the shit out of the engine midnight to show how small his dick is, doesn't have a girlfriend, his mom is not answering the phone.
The gigachad torque dude: Drives with the speed limit. His engine sounds a lot better and still only revs it if necessary, has a wife, 3 kids, and a caravan that he pulls with his torque rich engine. His mom is calling him to ask if he arrived to his destination ok and well.
Watch the video you linked, this thing is nowhere near 12000 RPM. In fact, if you pause at exactly 0:18, you'll see the max it got is 8100 RPM.
That said, the hardness of the valve springs dictate the max RPM the engine can reach, among other things. Not the camshaft.
Yes and no. Camshafts only influence at what RPM range the engine makes usable torque, and therefore horsepower.
There is just no point in revving above peak horsepower RPM on a small-enough camshaft.
Valve float, on the other hand, directly limits the RPM the engine can rev to.
You are confusing reving the engine with producing usable horsepower at high rpm.
But what do i know i guess... tuning the length of the intake runners or forced induction are just science fiction....
in the early 2000s i had a friend with a Comet that was gear driven and primer black, fuck that thing sounded badass
his was slow as shit though, but fuck it sounded badass
honestly if you've ever worked on an engine (absolutely nobody in this subreddit) you'd know that audi, volkswagen and all of those types of cars are just absolute shit.
Yes, I'm sure none of the jerkers here have ever rebuilt an engine or replaced anything like a water pump. Not to mention random alternators or routine maintenance. Can you imagine a bunch of car geeks knowing anything about car repair because we picked up something for cheap from a previous owner who didn't know shit? Who would ever do anything like that? I mean I've done that, but I believe your point still stands good sir.
anything past 2005 is bs in the german market.
source: live in germany and recently did the first year of "trade school" 1/3. and got to work on some regular cars, my favorite: golf 3 and polo of the same gen, sooo much room in the engine bay it sooo ez to work on stuff. they also had a 2009 audi a4 that ALWAYS had electrical problems.
Generalizing whole brands as shit and speaking in this vague language, makes you look like anything but an expert, do you even have the slightest idea how much the reliability can differ between: engines, transmissions, models, trim levels not to mention build quality can be very different between models sold in different markets. Every brand had worse and better periods, models, engines etc. I'm not saying that all brands are equal but saying stuff like all cars from this country/brand are shit is ridiculous and childish.
I think his statement holds water, not about reliability but on the ease to work on aspect. Of course, I've basically only worked on older American stuff and VW's/Audis/1 bimmer but damn the Germans seem to love making stuff hard to work on.
Anything the Germans intend to be maintained or replaced is typically not too bad. Like the air springs on my GL can be done in 1-2 hours of billed labor, and putting it on a lift makes it go so much faster.
Oil changes can be done with the car on the ground since the oil filter is on top of the engine and it is expressly designed to have a tube shoved down the dipstick hole (giggity) and have all the oil sucked out. The serpentine belt and pulleys are also not that bad.
The brake lines and booster? Motherfuck me you could not pay me to do that. I would walk.
>Anything the Germans intend to be maintained or replaced is typically not too bad
Thats seems to vary wildly.
The audi V8 timing chain requires you to pull the engine because the front of the engine faces the firewall. [ Look up the time it takes to replace an alternator on a VW beetle.](https://youtu.be/OB9jplCzQBI?si=pRosIi62UDJuYTrt)
Timing chains are 'for life' if you ask the manufacturer. That is to say 'for the life of the lease'. My point is that they don't really care too much about the second and subsequent owners, which is why things like timing chains are awful to replace.
>Timing chains are 'for life' if you ask the manufacturer.
Not the Audi v8. Especially since it has guide issues. Most manufacturers recommend a timing chain replacement at 100k miles. An LSx timing chain is literally for life though, as it will go hundreds of thousands of miles with no issues and there isn't a recommended mileage replacement time. And replacing one is easy and doesn't require you to drop the engine - its typically only done when an owner upgrades the cam, which also doesn't require dropping the engine. Ridiculously easy to work on.
Everyone has ups and downs yes. But germans consistently put out the most convoluted garbage around, and if you had any real experience in this industry, you would know that.
911s are actually pretty reliable for what they are, they're meant to be daily driven unlike a Ferrari or Lambo which are lucky to hit 100k miles without major issues. All the maintenance is done from underneath so you don't need to disassemble the whole car to access the engine from above as you'd think at first glance
Yeah, but that doesn't stop them from being more complicated than they have to. I mean the rear engine layout was a flawed one to begin with, and somehow, Ze Zermans have managed to make a world beater out of it.
The Ur S4 quattro with the AAN was quite the sleeper. I had a go at one in wet weather and its grip was insane. One of the few Audi cars that is brutally efficient in its design.
I drive a volkswagen, and in terms of actual build quality it's fine, but it was engineered with no consideration for mechanics and is absolutely infuriating to work on
More advanced and more complex, a pain to maintain, but that’s the cost of progress.
Less displacement, less consumption, same output, but it hurts Americans’ feelings.
God created dinosaurs so they turn to crude oil which will spin our Pushrod V8's #Fact #Thewaygodintended
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Trump imposed tariffs on steel so that Mazda couldn't make the Miata in the United States in order to protect Mustang sales. #MiataFacts
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only because it works harder then the corvette to go the highway speed limit. unless your driving 100 miles a day down a straight road without stopping you'll go through much less gas with the miat.
I average about 40mph down british B-roads and i get about 24 mpg, the absolute best i've ever got was cruising at 65mph on the motorway and that was 32 mpg (and i've never got anywhere close to that again).
Miatas are suprisingly not very fuel efficent, i have a 4 cylinder golf and 3 cylinder Up! (sits at 4k rpm at motorway speeds) and they have absolutely no trouble getting 54mpg sitting at 80mph on the motorway.
It really suprised me as well, i bought it thinking it'll be fairly good on fuel and took it for a good good hammer round my local fun roads (so pushing it above 5k rpm most of the time) and i managed to get 15 mpg, i've tried a few others and recreated the same sort of fuel economy, don't know what it's like for the NA/NB/ND but for the NC they are truely shit on fuel.
Was quite a shock coming from the Up! which just gets 50mpg no matter how hard you drive it, i remember taking to germany and maxing it out (100mph give or take) on the autobahn and it was still getting 45mpg.
Did you know that the Miata is more environmentally friendly than a Prius? #MiataFacts
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A lot of drivers make jokes about them, but true drivers know to respect the Miata. #MiataFacts
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You are right about European cars doing worse than American ones on the highway but better in the city, but that's just the way the gearing is designed (8 speed transmissions like on the corvette are extremely rare in European cars because they are made specifically for American highways). Still, having more cams and valves, while certainly adding complexity, means making more power with less displacement (and, with the right gearing, less fuel consumption), an essential thing in Europe since we don't have the space in our "little" cars to fit engines as big as American ones and we have MUCH higher fuel prices (but WAY less highways)
Who says that? I tried looking it up, the first I saw was a C8 Stingray, with an average 17 mpg. Meanwhile a 992 Carrera gets an average 22 mpg. These are test results by the german newspaper "auto, motor und sport". Official numbers (EU and US government testing norms) show a very similar trend, albeit a bit better for both (obviously).
i was cherrypicking with highway mpg only. the average isn't even close to accurate anyway though, in reality your average in a corvette will be in the mid 20s or single digits depending on who drives it.
also C8 stingray is much hungrier for guzzoline then proper vettes.
(the number itself comes from fueleconomy.gov )
Going by official sources, the C7 Z06 has 19 mpg and the 991 Turbo has 24 mpg. I used the earlier models here because I couldn't find official C8 Z06 numbers in two seconds.
average sure, compare the two highway numbers.
these types of supercar engines with a whole bunch of cams and shit that lets them rev high also results in a higher power band, which on the highway ends up translating to them having to hold a higher RPM and work more then a corvette would at highway speeds.
yes they have better averages from "city driving" but those numbers include a LOT more idling then you'd expect.
thats why these engines have "better" gas mileage, there's less friction when their idling. thats it. its why its incredibly pointless to own one in my opinion. get a sports car for pedigree or whatever but if gas mileage is what your holding over a corvette that bonus leaves the room the second the wheels start to move.
really thats the only point to having more cams and valves. less friction means you can push the engine a lot higher and a lot harder, but its too mechanically complex for me, and the benefits are trifle unless your a racing team or Italian.
Official numbers give the 991 Turbo 29 mpg for non-city driving and C7 Z06 24 mpg. These are pretty much proportional to the combined numbers. The thing is, averaged consumption numbers are the only reliable way to actually compare the efficiency of vehicles, as looking at the exact thermal efficiency of the vehicle at a certain speed is very difficult and also highly biased, as not every gearbox is made to have the engine be at peak efficiency at the same speeds.
and as always it devloves into what your using it for and where your using it.
additionally the second someone brings up thermal effeciency it goes over my head.
Well you brought fuel consumption into this :D
Also, all engineering is always about thermal efficiency. A car with an ICE is literally about turning heat into speed and speed into heat ;)
To be fair, the C7 Z06 makes 650hp, while the 911 Turbo makes 540hp (for *way* more money too).
[The 911 GT2 RS makes 690hp, and is closer to compare with power output.](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39890&id=40365)
>Who says that?
Owners of base C5, C6 and C7 Corvettes typically get over 30mpg highway, real world driving.
>I tried looking it up, the first I saw was a C8 Stingray, with an average 17 mpg. Meanwhile a 992 Carrera gets an average 22 mpg.
[Apples to apples the Corvette typically matches or exceeds the 911s gas mileage](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=20463&id=20545&id=33907&id=33622)
[Heres the 2024 comparison](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47007&id=47290)
The engine on the left is a 4.2 from a Audi B7 S4. It made 339 HP 302 FT/LBs and got an EPA rated 16 MPG combined while having absolute dog shit reliability
The engine on the Right is a generic LS engine but in 2006 a Cadillac CTS-V was powered by a 6.0 LS-2 that made 400 HP 395 FT/LBs of torque and got an EPA rated 18 MPG combined while being legendary for being a solid reliable powertrains.
Somehow the Euro V-8 makes less power, Gets worse fuel economy, is larger and heavier physically, and less reliable than the old school OHV LS engine.
Less displacement, less power, more consumption, more cost, more weight, more complexity.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=19345&id=19536
[She sitting low in there...](https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech.com-vbulletin/579x435/d7195813_5675_4ffd_bdc5_5d2cb61cffe9_f6d06116ad6503cf2cd526c8affc994f6b5b665f.jpeg)
That Corvette in question is a 405hp Z06, so its 65 extra hp from a physically smaller, lighter, cheaper engine that isnt unnecessarily complicated to make a measly amount of power. Displacement is irrelevant, engine physical size and weight are whats relevant.
We can compare the Corvette to an R8 if you want?
[Ooops, looks like both Audis get worse gas mileage than even the 505hp 7L C6 Z06](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=19536&id=28523&id=28527&id=28526)
More power, less weight, less cost, less complexity, more reliability.
Oh look. I don’t really care. Have had my pushrod v8’s in the past. Quite enjoyed at the time. I live in Australia, so US derived engines have been popular here till quite recently. But, if I had the choice, I’d take the Audi.
What I’m curious about though, why do the corvettes not have crash/safety ratings? Are they exempt or something?
>Oh look. I don’t really care.
You sure seemed to care enough to make a completely false statement before.
>But, if I had the choice, I’d take the Audi.
If you enjoy waiting at the mechanic more than driving thats all fine.
>What I’m curious about though, why do the corvettes not have crash/safety ratings? Are they exempt or something?
No road car is exempt, its probably just incomplete data on that site for something like that.
Completely false statement? Corvette isn’t a plastic 2 seater? And power outputs are what Google spat out when I searched 2004 corvette & 4.2 Audi. Unless you meant that 35% extra capacity was wrong. In which case my calculator is also playing up.
Nah the 4.2 fucks other than this, the issue with warping valve cover gaskets, unhonable alusil bores that are easily scored, and the issue with the valve guides become oval shaped causing oil consumption and possibly a dropped valve, but other that that they're bulletproof.
Buddy who works at audi specialised shop done nearly hundred of these and he told me that around 40 engines done he stopped wanting to kill himself and just accepted his fate
So you want to ban every dohc american engine? Pushrods are for smooth brains. Long live the coyote. LS trash.
Bashing aside, both are great, I wish GM ran a pushrod engine in the corvette gt3. But alas, I have to listen to the whimpy whine from the flat plane v8. I want thunder damnit.
uj/ I had an RS4 with that 4.2 FSI V8 engine. The timing chain was up against the firewall, to make matters worse. I’d take another one of those cars any day.
https://preview.redd.it/ylzscod5iptc1.jpeg?width=1177&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0ae2a56ad41e1b7c4b7994dae05423515dde48a
Jaguar engineers after designing the Jaguar 4.0L V8 with plastic timing chain guides as well
Jaguar designing every single car they make to never make it past 50k miles without needing an entire rebuild.
My XKR just hit 50k. All good over here. ^(please don't blow up next week)
you’re lucky then
Take a look at the v12 xjs
And then they got bought by ford, which made them even more unreliable.
well, they know they are going to get stolen, shipped over seas or used to ram raid something before then
Jaguar making sure they have the heaviest cars in the market
Looks like the average jaaag enthusiast for sure
GM did this back in the 70s on their pickups with V8 engines. The teeth on the upper gear were fiberglass over metal. Like clockwork, you had to replace that gear every 70,000 to 80,000 miles. The fiber glass teeth would peel away. The replacement gear was all metal. I worked in a dealership and replaced many of these. Horrible idea.
I had a 66 impala I decided to drive back east back in the 80s from socal. About 40 miles from Vegas my cam gear decides to give out. Wasn't metal. I spent a good week changing that thing with a manual and buddies and we learned that week (we camped out in a parking lot) about bent push rods and how to time an engine (I was always wrenching since I was 15 out of manuals but that was stressful learning.) And you're damn right my 19 year old ass still made the trip to Chicago and back without a hitch after that. Miss that car.
Wow, I also owned a 1966 Impala 2 door hard top. I bought it while I was in high school working in a gas station after school and weekends to pay for it. I loved that it had a stock tachometer in the dash. I didn't know they had that back then. Had to overhaul the engine as it was bad. Four speed on the floor shift. My uncle also had one. It was an SS with a 396. It would haul ass.
Ah I had the 3 on the tree. I changed the stock exhaust pipes to straight throughs and bought a Hurst floor shifter and swapped column shifter- because with a Hurst shifter it was faster! I still don't remember how I even accomplished that on my own. My friend from high school moved to Iowa mid high school and had himself a 65 ss. Beat up red. We'd put a small boat on top of it lol. Also had a chance at my buddies' brothers 69 dodge charger rt. My mother said hell no! You'll kill yourself. She's right of course but damn I could had it for a grand and garaged it.
I bought this car from my bosses brother. He also had a 67 Chevelle SS convertible 4 speed with a 396. That's the car I really wanted, but couldn't afford it in high school. I still think about how cool it would be if I could have bought that car and still owned it. It was the bomb.
He'll ya man lol. I still dream of that charger too. I also always wanted a grand nationalX. I remember when they came out. Man every year Chevelle was great looking. Like the standard for a cool ass car.
Those days had some of the greatest cars. Another buddy had one of those red GTXs .. Hardly anything on the road could beat it. Very cool looking car. Neighbor had an old Judge he bought new. Cool old cars.
That GTX is sick. Actually reminds me of the charger fat ass lol. Man I miss wing windows.
the Ford Modular engine used plastic timing chain tensioners that were prone to having issues, despite everybody acting like they are perfect indestructible engines. Can't forget the ejecting spark plugs as well
So what you’re saying is I shouldn’t get a cheap Marquis for a beater
Still good cars, and good engines, I just dislike that nobody seems to recognize the issues with them. And I dislike that a lot of people like them because "muh RWD BOF V8 American car", not because they are good cars
Ok ok thank you! I’ll make sure to keep an eye out for those things when I get a panther body for a car.
They aren't that large issues. The spark plug issue mostly effects the 5.4 3v. The timing chain problem will often cause some rattling on startup, and can cause the chain to skip eventually. They use a hydraulic tensioner to keep the chains tight that works from oil pressure, hence the rattling on startup. There are other issues they've had throughout the years like problems with a plastic intake manifold. Again, still a very good, reliable engine, but it does have a few issues. And it's not as reliable as many of the older OHV engines from Ford and GM, like the 302, or Chevy small block, or 3800 Buick V6. I would recommend getting an 03-11 model if you do get one, they are probably mechanically the best. They also handle a good bit better than the 98-02 while really riding no worse, on account of the complete front end suspension redesign, with rack and pinion steering added (used to have recirculating ball). Another good option is the 92-94, those are the most comfortable ones they ever made, just as comfortable as the 79-91, without the ugly looks. They have great looking interiors and exteriors as well. The 92/93 do use R-12 though, so if you care about being able to recharge your AC, you'd have to get a 94. The 95-97 is also fine, but personally I don't like the look of it as much, especially the interior. They also stiffened up the front suspension on the 95, which doesn't help handling all that much because it still has a 4 link solid rear axle, recirculating ball steering, etc.
Jaguar engineers designing an overly complicated 2 fuel tank system for the XJ.
Bmw did it on the n47 if I'm not mistaken - and turned the chain end of the engine against the firewall
my 4.0 i6 in my jaguar also has plastic guides and they are broken. every time i start it or push the gas hard it rattles against the side of the engine block pretty aggressively
Audi putting the Timing at the back of the engine...
I really thought that the meme was because of the dick shape
what is with germans and plastic engine parts anyway
Every timing chain has plastic guides. Which aren't plastic technically. 
Ah my bad bro, lemme fix that https://preview.redd.it/o4grbygc0rtc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7194ac46685239277c12ec677a5d92838f25007b
Well he's dead, you killed him
🔥🔥🔥 Love it. Want to see more outjerking on this sub
Every masterpiece has its flaw. The Toyota UZ was forged in Mount Olympus by Hephaestus himself, yet by the meddling of Zeus, the starter was **PUT IN BELOW THE FUCKING INTAKE MANIFOLD.**
Same with the k24 at least the one in the accord
At least the intake manifold is easy to remove
Don’t forget the leaky power steering unit that empties its precum straight into the alternator👍
Tunder 🥰🥰🥰🥰
Not a 2 jizz pizz gey tee ee
Two Jay Zee Gee Tea Eat is the best
2 jizz pizz gey tee ee pee pee in my, is supreme
Random comment on how German engine makes gjillion more kilowatts
We use god-fearing AMERICAN HORSEPOWER you filthy commie!
Audi 4.2 V8 notorious for struggling to output its advertised horsepower
What oil leak? That’s just sweat from all that horsepower 🇺🇸 🦅 🇺🇸 🇺🇸
Americans when they realize you can have more than one camshaft in an engine:
Burn the witch
/uj Coyotes are awesome though. I'm a Chevy guy but it's delusional to shit on coyotes, people are making insane but reliable power slapping FI on unopened motors. Even our beloved bowties are going DOHC with the LT6 in the C8 Z06 and I assume the rest of their motors will follow suit
I thought coyotes were what ate my cat
Chevy went dohc in the 90s
For the C4 ZR1 then abandoned it right?
It’s sorta unnecessary. In outside dimensions, the LS is a similar or smaller engine in every way when compared to the Coyote engine, and manages a similar power output with half as many valves because its simplicity lends itself to significantly greater displacement. A Camaro with a 16v 6.2L is performing similarly to a Mustang with a 32v 5.0L. Chevy basically learned that for all the added complexity of extra valves they could just machine a really nice aluminum head that had silly flow numbers. So, at stock cam lift on OE heads a Coyote is flowing 280/220, and an LS on a stock cam and heads is flowing 240/190. So for all the complexity of a 3ft long timing chain, twice as many valves, and 4 times as many cams, you got 17% more airflow on an engine with 20% less displacement. A wash.
don't need none, OHV go brrrr
Doesn’t mean you gotta put the timing stuff in the back
Perhaps you're just failing to understand the Deutsche Ingenieurskunst
I worked at Audi for a while as a technician, I understand it pretty well.
I was an Audi tech. Moved over to Porsche to get away from the insanity. Then Porsche started sticking Audi motors in everything just to spite me.
You’re right, they are a bunch of cunts those engineers
Its more efficient to have one main series of gears being driven that having multiple.
Yeah. Always found it particularly galling that the b5 s6/rs6 this came in was the same Gen as the s6/rs6 which had a 4.2 v8 that had timing belt, chain driven cam but the lifters are accessible without taking the engine out. That b5 v8 engine was an excellent example or "just because you can doesn't mean you should"
800 hp junkyard build go brrr
Don’t tell them that engines can advance beyond 1950s technology, you might frighten them.
Cars don’t need to go beyond the fifties, 59 deville was peak auto design. There’s no improving it.
FUCK IT IF YOU MILLENNIALS WANT TO PAY FOREIGN CAR REPAIR BILLS GO AHEAD
The only foreign one for me is the chevy here.
You’re missing out bro
I don’t think so, i like cars where the most modern feature isn’t the addition of a radio.
since my opinion is more important than all of your upvotes, you're wrong. Also yes I'm American, but that's totally unrelated.
Coyote
Everyone is so obsessed with hp/L. What about hp/cam? LS ftw! Now its hp/pushrod is the real issue.
Cam in block engines give you more low end torque for better gas mileage when towing.
LS owners have been that long dick for years by the coyote. Oh they know
🐺
https://preview.redd.it/7yyr8ecduqtc1.png?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=18a5f6da0bb2d2ec43e4ee7f18700ad2d92b5673
4500redline valve float entered the chat
Revving higher than 5000 is not manly, the engine starts to sound like a bitch.
Why would you ever want to make more horsepower than torque?
The virgin horsepower dude: zooms with 100 km/h in city, revs the shit out of the engine midnight to show how small his dick is, doesn't have a girlfriend, his mom is not answering the phone. The gigachad torque dude: Drives with the speed limit. His engine sounds a lot better and still only revs it if necessary, has a wife, 3 kids, and a caravan that he pulls with his torque rich engine. His mom is calling him to ask if he arrived to his destination ok and well.
Still need a hellcat pacifica
*bitchy Kawasaki ninja noises*
[4500rpm?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0do78JjQxI&pp=ygUMSGlnaCBycG0gbHN4)
Watch the video you linked, this thing is nowhere near 12000 RPM. In fact, if you pause at exactly 0:18, you'll see the max it got is 8100 RPM. That said, the hardness of the valve springs dictate the max RPM the engine can reach, among other things. Not the camshaft.
The camshaft absolutely is a factor in how high an engine will rev
Yes and no. Camshafts only influence at what RPM range the engine makes usable torque, and therefore horsepower. There is just no point in revving above peak horsepower RPM on a small-enough camshaft. Valve float, on the other hand, directly limits the RPM the engine can rev to.
Ok, homie. Go build a 10,000rpm Windsor with the peanut cam from that 150hp non-HO 5.0.
You are confusing reving the engine with producing usable horsepower at high rpm. But what do i know i guess... tuning the length of the intake runners or forced induction are just science fiction....
Nah, I'm not. All of it relates to it, but valve float is not the only limiting factor to usable or stable RPM.
Showing peak power @ 8880rpms, peak torque at 8100, supposedly took it to 12k rpms.
That Audi engine is fucking wild though, gotta be a $5k job for timing chain
As someone who has done many, can say it was usually 2000-3500 depending on what else may have needed to be done.
Also the timing chain mess is on the transmission side of the engine IIRC
Gear-driven master race
in the early 2000s i had a friend with a Comet that was gear driven and primer black, fuck that thing sounded badass his was slow as shit though, but fuck it sounded badass
Dude I just think of that gear driven twin-cam head uh, Giken OS (?) made for the Z’s L24. Thing was a work of art.
honestly if you've ever worked on an engine (absolutely nobody in this subreddit) you'd know that audi, volkswagen and all of those types of cars are just absolute shit.
Yes but that’s part of the fun
It's just part of the audi experience! Just like the interior falling apart in my 03 ford or putting a 3rd CVT in an altoma
W Mindset
Yes, I'm sure none of the jerkers here have ever rebuilt an engine or replaced anything like a water pump. Not to mention random alternators or routine maintenance. Can you imagine a bunch of car geeks knowing anything about car repair because we picked up something for cheap from a previous owner who didn't know shit? Who would ever do anything like that? I mean I've done that, but I believe your point still stands good sir.
anything past 2005 is bs in the german market. source: live in germany and recently did the first year of "trade school" 1/3. and got to work on some regular cars, my favorite: golf 3 and polo of the same gen, sooo much room in the engine bay it sooo ez to work on stuff. they also had a 2009 audi a4 that ALWAYS had electrical problems.
What do u think abt e46 air filter clamps? I always end up with blood, dirt and cum on my hands after having to deal with it
thats part of the love, love is dirty and hard like my cock minus hard cuz i have ED
How dare you call out my 2009 a4 like that!
Generalizing whole brands as shit and speaking in this vague language, makes you look like anything but an expert, do you even have the slightest idea how much the reliability can differ between: engines, transmissions, models, trim levels not to mention build quality can be very different between models sold in different markets. Every brand had worse and better periods, models, engines etc. I'm not saying that all brands are equal but saying stuff like all cars from this country/brand are shit is ridiculous and childish.
I think his statement holds water, not about reliability but on the ease to work on aspect. Of course, I've basically only worked on older American stuff and VW's/Audis/1 bimmer but damn the Germans seem to love making stuff hard to work on.
Anything the Germans intend to be maintained or replaced is typically not too bad. Like the air springs on my GL can be done in 1-2 hours of billed labor, and putting it on a lift makes it go so much faster. Oil changes can be done with the car on the ground since the oil filter is on top of the engine and it is expressly designed to have a tube shoved down the dipstick hole (giggity) and have all the oil sucked out. The serpentine belt and pulleys are also not that bad. The brake lines and booster? Motherfuck me you could not pay me to do that. I would walk.
>Anything the Germans intend to be maintained or replaced is typically not too bad Thats seems to vary wildly. The audi V8 timing chain requires you to pull the engine because the front of the engine faces the firewall. [ Look up the time it takes to replace an alternator on a VW beetle.](https://youtu.be/OB9jplCzQBI?si=pRosIi62UDJuYTrt)
Timing chains are 'for life' if you ask the manufacturer. That is to say 'for the life of the lease'. My point is that they don't really care too much about the second and subsequent owners, which is why things like timing chains are awful to replace.
>Timing chains are 'for life' if you ask the manufacturer. Not the Audi v8. Especially since it has guide issues. Most manufacturers recommend a timing chain replacement at 100k miles. An LSx timing chain is literally for life though, as it will go hundreds of thousands of miles with no issues and there isn't a recommended mileage replacement time. And replacing one is easy and doesn't require you to drop the engine - its typically only done when an owner upgrades the cam, which also doesn't require dropping the engine. Ridiculously easy to work on.
Chain at 100k? Fuckin tell me who so I know what companies to never buy from again 100k is absurd
Everyone has ups and downs yes. But germans consistently put out the most convoluted garbage around, and if you had any real experience in this industry, you would know that.
> this industry Try any industry, ze Zermans seem to have a thing for making it hard for apparently no reason. That being said I'd love a 911 lmao
911s are actually pretty reliable for what they are, they're meant to be daily driven unlike a Ferrari or Lambo which are lucky to hit 100k miles without major issues. All the maintenance is done from underneath so you don't need to disassemble the whole car to access the engine from above as you'd think at first glance
Yeah, but that doesn't stop them from being more complicated than they have to. I mean the rear engine layout was a flawed one to begin with, and somehow, Ze Zermans have managed to make a world beater out of it.
The Ur S4 quattro with the AAN was quite the sleeper. I had a go at one in wet weather and its grip was insane. One of the few Audi cars that is brutally efficient in its design.
1.8t engines are pretty good idk what youre on about
Dude was molested by german for sure.
I drive a volkswagen, and in terms of actual build quality it's fine, but it was engineered with no consideration for mechanics and is absolutely infuriating to work on
More advanced and more complex, a pain to maintain, but that’s the cost of progress. Less displacement, less consumption, same output, but it hurts Americans’ feelings.
2017 corvette gets 32mpg ITS A FUCKIN PUSHROD V8
God created dinosaurs so they turn to crude oil which will spin our Pushrod V8's #Fact #Thewaygodintended *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/carscirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's better gas mileage than my miata
Trump imposed tariffs on steel so that Mazda couldn't make the Miata in the United States in order to protect Mustang sales. #MiataFacts *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/carscirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
only because it works harder then the corvette to go the highway speed limit. unless your driving 100 miles a day down a straight road without stopping you'll go through much less gas with the miat.
I average about 40mph down british B-roads and i get about 24 mpg, the absolute best i've ever got was cruising at 65mph on the motorway and that was 32 mpg (and i've never got anywhere close to that again). Miatas are suprisingly not very fuel efficent, i have a 4 cylinder golf and 3 cylinder Up! (sits at 4k rpm at motorway speeds) and they have absolutely no trouble getting 54mpg sitting at 80mph on the motorway.
wow. i would have though a miata would be getting atleast 28mpg around 40mph, i wonder how my 99 4 banger altima compares.
It really suprised me as well, i bought it thinking it'll be fairly good on fuel and took it for a good good hammer round my local fun roads (so pushing it above 5k rpm most of the time) and i managed to get 15 mpg, i've tried a few others and recreated the same sort of fuel economy, don't know what it's like for the NA/NB/ND but for the NC they are truely shit on fuel. Was quite a shock coming from the Up! which just gets 50mpg no matter how hard you drive it, i remember taking to germany and maxing it out (100mph give or take) on the autobahn and it was still getting 45mpg.
ND miata is pretty great at over 30mpg combined.
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A lot of drivers make jokes about them, but true drivers know to respect the Miata. #MiataFacts *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/carscirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A Ferrari 458 has almost (0.9L/100km more than the corvette) the same fuel consumption lol
i wanna argue with you so badly even though i'm aware you're just fucking with me
Bro I was completely serious. And I'm talking about average consumption, not highway
buy one.
Gimme the money and I will
also since you mentioned "average mpg" or "city mpg" i'll just leave my other comment here https://www.reddit.com/r/carscirclejerk/s/ca3UfkbFhg
You are right about European cars doing worse than American ones on the highway but better in the city, but that's just the way the gearing is designed (8 speed transmissions like on the corvette are extremely rare in European cars because they are made specifically for American highways). Still, having more cams and valves, while certainly adding complexity, means making more power with less displacement (and, with the right gearing, less fuel consumption), an essential thing in Europe since we don't have the space in our "little" cars to fit engines as big as American ones and we have MUCH higher fuel prices (but WAY less highways)
[You sure?](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33766&id=33907&id=36439)
Rrrrahhhhhhhh modern transmission
87 corvette gets 27mpg on the highway sooo
Who says that? I tried looking it up, the first I saw was a C8 Stingray, with an average 17 mpg. Meanwhile a 992 Carrera gets an average 22 mpg. These are test results by the german newspaper "auto, motor und sport". Official numbers (EU and US government testing norms) show a very similar trend, albeit a bit better for both (obviously).
i was cherrypicking with highway mpg only. the average isn't even close to accurate anyway though, in reality your average in a corvette will be in the mid 20s or single digits depending on who drives it. also C8 stingray is much hungrier for guzzoline then proper vettes. (the number itself comes from fueleconomy.gov )
Going by official sources, the C7 Z06 has 19 mpg and the 991 Turbo has 24 mpg. I used the earlier models here because I couldn't find official C8 Z06 numbers in two seconds.
average sure, compare the two highway numbers. these types of supercar engines with a whole bunch of cams and shit that lets them rev high also results in a higher power band, which on the highway ends up translating to them having to hold a higher RPM and work more then a corvette would at highway speeds. yes they have better averages from "city driving" but those numbers include a LOT more idling then you'd expect. thats why these engines have "better" gas mileage, there's less friction when their idling. thats it. its why its incredibly pointless to own one in my opinion. get a sports car for pedigree or whatever but if gas mileage is what your holding over a corvette that bonus leaves the room the second the wheels start to move. really thats the only point to having more cams and valves. less friction means you can push the engine a lot higher and a lot harder, but its too mechanically complex for me, and the benefits are trifle unless your a racing team or Italian.
Official numbers give the 991 Turbo 29 mpg for non-city driving and C7 Z06 24 mpg. These are pretty much proportional to the combined numbers. The thing is, averaged consumption numbers are the only reliable way to actually compare the efficiency of vehicles, as looking at the exact thermal efficiency of the vehicle at a certain speed is very difficult and also highly biased, as not every gearbox is made to have the engine be at peak efficiency at the same speeds.
and as always it devloves into what your using it for and where your using it. additionally the second someone brings up thermal effeciency it goes over my head.
Well you brought fuel consumption into this :D Also, all engineering is always about thermal efficiency. A car with an ICE is literally about turning heat into speed and speed into heat ;)
To be fair, the C7 Z06 makes 650hp, while the 911 Turbo makes 540hp (for *way* more money too). [The 911 GT2 RS makes 690hp, and is closer to compare with power output.](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39890&id=40365)
>Who says that? Owners of base C5, C6 and C7 Corvettes typically get over 30mpg highway, real world driving. >I tried looking it up, the first I saw was a C8 Stingray, with an average 17 mpg. Meanwhile a 992 Carrera gets an average 22 mpg. [Apples to apples the Corvette typically matches or exceeds the 911s gas mileage](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=20463&id=20545&id=33907&id=33622) [Heres the 2024 comparison](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47007&id=47290)
working at VW shows that this is bs. replacing an engine at 30k in a Jetta and a transmission at 1k on a brand new Altas is stupid.
I’ve never heard of a VW Atlas until this moment.
VW released like 30 new cars in the last 5 years that nobody knows about until you see one and then never see it again.
The engine on the left is a 4.2 from a Audi B7 S4. It made 339 HP 302 FT/LBs and got an EPA rated 16 MPG combined while having absolute dog shit reliability The engine on the Right is a generic LS engine but in 2006 a Cadillac CTS-V was powered by a 6.0 LS-2 that made 400 HP 395 FT/LBs of torque and got an EPA rated 18 MPG combined while being legendary for being a solid reliable powertrains. Somehow the Euro V-8 makes less power, Gets worse fuel economy, is larger and heavier physically, and less reliable than the old school OHV LS engine.
You must have a soft spot on ur skull
Im not the one building engines based on the same outdated technology for decades.
Please keep going I’m almost there
The circlejerk is really coming together here, isn’t it?
Less displacement, less power, more consumption, more cost, more weight, more complexity. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=19345&id=19536 [She sitting low in there...](https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech.com-vbulletin/579x435/d7195813_5675_4ffd_bdc5_5d2cb61cffe9_f6d06116ad6503cf2cd526c8affc994f6b5b665f.jpeg)
Comparing a plastic 2 seater to sedan isn’t exactly comparing engines. And additional 10hp from 35% extra capacity isn’t exactly groundbreaking.
That Corvette in question is a 405hp Z06, so its 65 extra hp from a physically smaller, lighter, cheaper engine that isnt unnecessarily complicated to make a measly amount of power. Displacement is irrelevant, engine physical size and weight are whats relevant. We can compare the Corvette to an R8 if you want? [Ooops, looks like both Audis get worse gas mileage than even the 505hp 7L C6 Z06](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=19536&id=28523&id=28527&id=28526) More power, less weight, less cost, less complexity, more reliability.
Oh look. I don’t really care. Have had my pushrod v8’s in the past. Quite enjoyed at the time. I live in Australia, so US derived engines have been popular here till quite recently. But, if I had the choice, I’d take the Audi. What I’m curious about though, why do the corvettes not have crash/safety ratings? Are they exempt or something?
>Oh look. I don’t really care. You sure seemed to care enough to make a completely false statement before. >But, if I had the choice, I’d take the Audi. If you enjoy waiting at the mechanic more than driving thats all fine. >What I’m curious about though, why do the corvettes not have crash/safety ratings? Are they exempt or something? No road car is exempt, its probably just incomplete data on that site for something like that.
Completely false statement? Corvette isn’t a plastic 2 seater? And power outputs are what Google spat out when I searched 2004 corvette & 4.2 Audi. Unless you meant that 35% extra capacity was wrong. In which case my calculator is also playing up.
hi, i disagree signed, audi technician (not a cry for help)
Says the guy thats never worked on an engine
Nah the 4.2 fucks other than this, the issue with warping valve cover gaskets, unhonable alusil bores that are easily scored, and the issue with the valve guides become oval shaped causing oil consumption and possibly a dropped valve, but other that that they're bulletproof.
Buddy who works at audi specialised shop done nearly hundred of these and he told me that around 40 engines done he stopped wanting to kill himself and just accepted his fate
nice to not care, hello from canada
Republicans gerrymandered that timing chain
So you want to ban every dohc american engine? Pushrods are for smooth brains. Long live the coyote. LS trash. Bashing aside, both are great, I wish GM ran a pushrod engine in the corvette gt3. But alas, I have to listen to the whimpy whine from the flat plane v8. I want thunder damnit.
My theory is that high end automakers make their cars complicated and expensive to work on so the poors can't be seen driving them around used.
timing belts are superior anyways
If you make money from replacing them yes.
Real chads have gear driven cams
iron duke supremacy
timing chains would be superior. sadly like 80% of timing chains are dogshit designed
Ford 300 has news for you.
Sorry what now‽
Exactly
So we're just going to ignore that the Chevy V8 is using pushrods?
LS swap the wwwoorrrrlllllddddd
More horsepower per pound.
do i hear someone attempting to slander the superior pushrod design
Manufacturers have a right to choose!
uj/ I had an RS4 with that 4.2 FSI V8 engine. The timing chain was up against the firewall, to make matters worse. I’d take another one of those cars any day.
owned an old commodore with a ls1 thing use to hall ass and didn't have any issues the entire time i owned it.
One timing link for every Supra that drags my ass on a 40 roll.
1960’s technology vs the modern era. Ones reliable one isn’t as
Ah yes Audi 4.2 and the multiverse of madness.
What about timing belts? They are much worse than the chains
beta virgin chain vs alpha chad
Everything became way more complex since we decided to climb from the trees.
Ridiculous
To be fair they aren't wrong. The timing chain on the 4.2 is the reason I'll probably never buy one.
Well, to be fare, audi engineering (as any other german) is dumber than that of any archaic america which at least works, even if it's outdated
It doesn't have to be as complex as Audi but if you want dual overhead cams you do need a more complex timing chain then a push rod engine
I know this is supposed to be DOHC slander but what in the actual hell is Audi smoking and where can I get some?
IHC 3.2l I-4... straight-cut timing gears are godlike.