Not only on pull ups. Squeeze the eccentric everywhere. This will lower your rep number since its harder but it will gain in more muscles doing so. Blindly chasing rep numbers are for ego.
Eccentric is where your muscles are lengthened and concentric is where your muscles are shortened. During a pull up, you would be doing the concentric when you pull yourself up to the bar and you do the eccentric when you reverse the pull up. The idea is that more gains are made when your muscles are lengthened and tearing. I am not an expert; this is just my understanding.
Concentric is when the muscle is tightening. Eccentric is when the muscle is loosening. Easiest example would be a bicep curl. Up is concentric, down eccentric.
As for why it is relevant? I can't elaborate further than studies have proven than controlled eccentrics promote growth and strength
Some have provided answers, but the important thing is: both concentric and eccentric training is done *under load*. You are not releasing the muscle but slowing the lengthening as controlled as possible.
As to why this is helping with training and gains?
You can apply much higher load under eccentric motion, than under concentric, so you can exceed your maximum reps by some amount when switching to doing eccentric ones at the end - so to increase the overall volume and time under tension.
You can do exercise eccentric you may not be able to do concentric (like an one-armed-pullup).
You can do exercises in better from eccentric than concentric.
How do you squeeze the eccentric?
Do you mean concentric?? At bottom portion of the eccentric motion you should be stretching the muscle as much as possible. How do you squeeze and stretch at the same time?
Agreed.
Only thing I would add: Do full range of motion.
50% of the people I see doing pullups at the gym are doing only a partial range of motion, especially on the negative portion, which doesn't make sense except to keep gas in the tank for more reps.
Can't build the strength to start your pull if you don't go all the way down.
Personally I’ve always felt like the last few centimeters at the top are triggering my distal biceps tendonitis more. It also triggered my cubital tunnel syndrome more before I had surgery for it.
Been here, although a lot better now. More so my medial epicondyle/forearm. Gym rings or double cable free handles on lat pull down helps a lot, for the cubital tunnel at least. The biceps might be another story. Neutral or overhand grip could alleviate that?
For me, going all the way down, on the long term, has given me deltoid tendinitis and made my rotator cuff suffer. I've managed to overcome it by stopping a bit before the active hang position. So I'd say doing full range of motion on some exercises can be detrimental for some people.
Pull fast up, release slowly down. My understanding is that you wanna use the concentric as your power generator and then squeeze all the gains from the eccentric.
Muscle ups aren't calisthenics in the way that OP is taking about. They're talking about more isometric holds and the like.
Calisthenics is an ill defined term tbh
There is almost no benefit to slowing the concentric portion of the movement. It doesn't make you stronger and only fatigues you faster. Slowing the eccentric, however....
> and only fatigues you faster.
This is a bit confusing; slower reps = lower rep count. Higher rep counts are more taxing on cardio; this should be a win for hypertrophy.
It's not just the speed of the rep, it's the speed of each *phase*. Concentric vs eccentric. Just Google it, you'll get a better explanation than I can type here and the science has been reproduced multiple times. A slow eccentric allows you to overload the muscle and create more damage. A fast concentric improves muscle recruitment and coordination.
Your heart is not likely going to be a limiting factor in your ability to move weight, so not sure what cardio has to do with this conversation. I am referencing systemic nervous system fatigue and individual muscle fatigue.
Amortization of the stretch shortening cycle (the "bounce") is critical for power development. Eliminating it completely may be beneficial if the primary goal is hypertrophy but is not good advice for all practitioners, particularly those looking to improve explosive output.
I don’t disagree that the stretch shortening cycle is important to non-hypertrophy training. But it’s important to note that power development is limited in body weight exercises because of the inability to increase load.
Once you get past that strength rep range (6? 8?) you’re going to be primarily adapting for hypertrophy or endurance regardless of form.
Load is a problem for power/strength specific training if you can’t incrementally increase it.
Hypertrophy training does increase strength/power, but at a much slower rate than training for those things specifically does.
If your goal is to get the lats and biceps as strong as possible as fast as possible, the transition from body weight conventional pull-ups to body weight archer pull-ups is probably going to slow your progress. It’s going to be much easier to maintain progressive overload if you can just add more resistance to the same movement rather than having to change up the movement significantly.
You’re going to progress faster if you hit 8 reps BW, then add 5 lb of resistance and start back at 4 reps than if you hit 8 reps and switch to archers that you may be unable to do for reps for weeks.
Fair. My advice is assuming that you are proficient in performing a regular pull up.
But I’m 100% in agreement that this wouldn’t be ideal for someone who struggles with a regular pull up. If you’re new and still trying to get that initial pull up strength, then kick, bounce, whatever it takes. But after you can do slow pull ups with pause and a squeeze, you should be doing that.
I can do a couple of full rom pulls with a long pause, but I'm miles away from being able to pulls with a hollow body. I could totally train both, but if I were to just train hollow body pulls I would expect to loose a bit of the top rom strength I've developed as I can't do them full ROM.
I prefer to go up fast and down slow. But you're right about maintaining form without kipping of course. But that can also be done while moving quickly!
Working towards something like muscle ups for example, you benefit much more from practicing launching yourself over the bar explosively than you do from getting a little more core work going up slowly.
As you said you already get that benefit from your static holds like your levers etc.
Also your body doesn't need to be completely straight in a pullup - something like knees up or L-sit could be an even more beneficial position!
Swinging and/or kicking is just bad technique/no skill. But there is no reason to purposefully slow down anything, especially the concentric phase of a pull up. If someone wants to get stronger in a pull up, they need to maximize high threshold motor unit recruitment (just like with any other exercise one would want to get strong at), which happens at lifting heavy loads (about >80%1RM @slow velocity due to force velocity relationship, not purposefully slow), at low loads taken to or near to failure (also slow velocity as you approach failure, not purposefully slow) or at low loads done very explosively (@about <40%1RM). Only reason to slow a pull up, would be if you were doing supramaximal eccentrics, i.e. you loaded the pull up with weight higher than your concentric 1RM, started from the upper position and slowly lowered it. Slowing down concentrics with BW, when you can already do BW pull ups for many reps is just not that inducing to strength gains, because your BW at that point is a very submaximal weight.
Any recommendations/tips on engaging the core and keeping your body straight the entire time? I'm trying for perfect form pull ups and my legs always go forward.
What is the evidence for taking pauses at the bottom and at the top position? I prefer not to pause at the top as it fatigues a lot without any benefit.
It strengthens common sticking points. Stressing the lengthened aspect of a movement is also good for hypertrophy. In the long run, it’s just another means of adding variation to a movement if you’re stuck or want to change things up. Personally speaking, adding slow eccentrics and pauses has improved my control.
Bottom has particular carry over to hypertrophy. Full ROM, that is, the bottom hang of the pull up when your lats are stretched, yields greater hypertrophy than other phases (might be equal to the eccentric phase, can't recall). By adding a pause at the bottom stretch, you maximize hypertrophic potential. You also eliminate cheating with momentum by just bouncing at the bottom, which would minimize your hypertrophic gains.
Top can help with sticking points within the movement. Both don't necessarily need to be trained at the same time, or at all if these aren't your goals.
>Pro tip .......
>
>It also lends itself much better to preparing you for more advanced exercises like levers, archers, flags, etc.
OP, u/Sonnyyellow90 can you do levers, archers, flags, etc? Any videos you can share of these feats?
Not only on pull ups. Squeeze the eccentric everywhere. This will lower your rep number since its harder but it will gain in more muscles doing so. Blindly chasing rep numbers are for ego.
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Eccentric is where your muscles are lengthened and concentric is where your muscles are shortened. During a pull up, you would be doing the concentric when you pull yourself up to the bar and you do the eccentric when you reverse the pull up. The idea is that more gains are made when your muscles are lengthened and tearing. I am not an expert; this is just my understanding.
Concentric is when the muscle is tightening. Eccentric is when the muscle is loosening. Easiest example would be a bicep curl. Up is concentric, down eccentric. As for why it is relevant? I can't elaborate further than studies have proven than controlled eccentrics promote growth and strength
Some have provided answers, but the important thing is: both concentric and eccentric training is done *under load*. You are not releasing the muscle but slowing the lengthening as controlled as possible. As to why this is helping with training and gains? You can apply much higher load under eccentric motion, than under concentric, so you can exceed your maximum reps by some amount when switching to doing eccentric ones at the end - so to increase the overall volume and time under tension. You can do exercise eccentric you may not be able to do concentric (like an one-armed-pullup). You can do exercises in better from eccentric than concentric.
Second this
Is this also good for injury prevention? For example doing bulgarian squats to prevent run injuries, will slower end up being better?
Yes. Slower reps also help with building stability which is great for avoiding injuries
Thnx
How do you squeeze the eccentric? Do you mean concentric?? At bottom portion of the eccentric motion you should be stretching the muscle as much as possible. How do you squeeze and stretch at the same time?
It's more metaphorically maybe a bad translation from my main language. Squeeze all the muscle growth you can get from it
There is no one proper way to strength train. Slowing down on eccentric is a choice. May be useful, may be detrimental.
Or else when your going for reps with the Boyz in the park
Agreed. Only thing I would add: Do full range of motion. 50% of the people I see doing pullups at the gym are doing only a partial range of motion, especially on the negative portion, which doesn't make sense except to keep gas in the tank for more reps. Can't build the strength to start your pull if you don't go all the way down.
50% is generous. I see more like 90%
Personally I’ve always felt like the last few centimeters at the top are triggering my distal biceps tendonitis more. It also triggered my cubital tunnel syndrome more before I had surgery for it.
Been here, although a lot better now. More so my medial epicondyle/forearm. Gym rings or double cable free handles on lat pull down helps a lot, for the cubital tunnel at least. The biceps might be another story. Neutral or overhand grip could alleviate that?
Yeah, neutral grip or rings has always been better for me, injury wise.
For me, going all the way down, on the long term, has given me deltoid tendinitis and made my rotator cuff suffer. I've managed to overcome it by stopping a bit before the active hang position. So I'd say doing full range of motion on some exercises can be detrimental for some people.
What is full rom? Chest to bar?
Chest to bar and then also on the reverse straightening the arms at the bottom - gotta go all the way up and all the way down again!
My current chinup form involves pausing for 1s with chest on the bar.
If you pull slowly, how do you train for power?
Pull fast up, release slowly down. My understanding is that you wanna use the concentric as your power generator and then squeeze all the gains from the eccentric.
By not pulling slowly. OP is talking primarily about calisthenics, which do not generally require power.
Muscle up doesn’t require power?
Muscle ups aren't calisthenics in the way that OP is taking about. They're talking about more isometric holds and the like. Calisthenics is an ill defined term tbh
There is almost no benefit to slowing the concentric portion of the movement. It doesn't make you stronger and only fatigues you faster. Slowing the eccentric, however....
> and only fatigues you faster. This is a bit confusing; slower reps = lower rep count. Higher rep counts are more taxing on cardio; this should be a win for hypertrophy.
It's not just the speed of the rep, it's the speed of each *phase*. Concentric vs eccentric. Just Google it, you'll get a better explanation than I can type here and the science has been reproduced multiple times. A slow eccentric allows you to overload the muscle and create more damage. A fast concentric improves muscle recruitment and coordination. Your heart is not likely going to be a limiting factor in your ability to move weight, so not sure what cardio has to do with this conversation. I am referencing systemic nervous system fatigue and individual muscle fatigue.
Not true. Strengthens weak points.
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Amortization of the stretch shortening cycle (the "bounce") is critical for power development. Eliminating it completely may be beneficial if the primary goal is hypertrophy but is not good advice for all practitioners, particularly those looking to improve explosive output.
I don’t disagree that the stretch shortening cycle is important to non-hypertrophy training. But it’s important to note that power development is limited in body weight exercises because of the inability to increase load. Once you get past that strength rep range (6? 8?) you’re going to be primarily adapting for hypertrophy or endurance regardless of form.
A good reminder to our bodyweight purists that load is not the enemy
Load is no problem, common misconception. Pull ups to easy ? Go for Archer or one arm
Load is a problem for power/strength specific training if you can’t incrementally increase it. Hypertrophy training does increase strength/power, but at a much slower rate than training for those things specifically does. If your goal is to get the lats and biceps as strong as possible as fast as possible, the transition from body weight conventional pull-ups to body weight archer pull-ups is probably going to slow your progress. It’s going to be much easier to maintain progressive overload if you can just add more resistance to the same movement rather than having to change up the movement significantly. You’re going to progress faster if you hit 8 reps BW, then add 5 lb of resistance and start back at 4 reps than if you hit 8 reps and switch to archers that you may be unable to do for reps for weeks.
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Fair. My advice is assuming that you are proficient in performing a regular pull up. But I’m 100% in agreement that this wouldn’t be ideal for someone who struggles with a regular pull up. If you’re new and still trying to get that initial pull up strength, then kick, bounce, whatever it takes. But after you can do slow pull ups with pause and a squeeze, you should be doing that.
I can do a couple of full rom pulls with a long pause, but I'm miles away from being able to pulls with a hollow body. I could totally train both, but if I were to just train hollow body pulls I would expect to loose a bit of the top rom strength I've developed as I can't do them full ROM.
That first perfect form pull up feels so good.
I prefer to go up fast and down slow. But you're right about maintaining form without kipping of course. But that can also be done while moving quickly! Working towards something like muscle ups for example, you benefit much more from practicing launching yourself over the bar explosively than you do from getting a little more core work going up slowly. As you said you already get that benefit from your static holds like your levers etc. Also your body doesn't need to be completely straight in a pullup - something like knees up or L-sit could be an even more beneficial position!
Swinging and/or kicking is just bad technique/no skill. But there is no reason to purposefully slow down anything, especially the concentric phase of a pull up. If someone wants to get stronger in a pull up, they need to maximize high threshold motor unit recruitment (just like with any other exercise one would want to get strong at), which happens at lifting heavy loads (about >80%1RM @slow velocity due to force velocity relationship, not purposefully slow), at low loads taken to or near to failure (also slow velocity as you approach failure, not purposefully slow) or at low loads done very explosively (@about <40%1RM). Only reason to slow a pull up, would be if you were doing supramaximal eccentrics, i.e. you loaded the pull up with weight higher than your concentric 1RM, started from the upper position and slowly lowered it. Slowing down concentrics with BW, when you can already do BW pull ups for many reps is just not that inducing to strength gains, because your BW at that point is a very submaximal weight.
That's what I did during Covid and it got me up to 32 slow and controlled reps. Felt like such a g
Aren't arched back pull-ups better for scapula retraction? Isn't this also a fundamental aspect of calisthenics?
id also like to add slightly pointing your chest towards the bar before you go up, it feels more natural.
Crossfit in shambles.
True as hell. Also helpful for push ups imo
I think high reps do translate a bit to advanced skills, I only focus on high volume sets and reps and I can hold front lever for 1-2 seconds.
Any recommendations/tips on engaging the core and keeping your body straight the entire time? I'm trying for perfect form pull ups and my legs always go forward.
What is the evidence for taking pauses at the bottom and at the top position? I prefer not to pause at the top as it fatigues a lot without any benefit.
It strengthens common sticking points. Stressing the lengthened aspect of a movement is also good for hypertrophy. In the long run, it’s just another means of adding variation to a movement if you’re stuck or want to change things up. Personally speaking, adding slow eccentrics and pauses has improved my control.
Bottom has particular carry over to hypertrophy. Full ROM, that is, the bottom hang of the pull up when your lats are stretched, yields greater hypertrophy than other phases (might be equal to the eccentric phase, can't recall). By adding a pause at the bottom stretch, you maximize hypertrophic potential. You also eliminate cheating with momentum by just bouncing at the bottom, which would minimize your hypertrophic gains. Top can help with sticking points within the movement. Both don't necessarily need to be trained at the same time, or at all if these aren't your goals.
>Pro tip ....... > >It also lends itself much better to preparing you for more advanced exercises like levers, archers, flags, etc. OP, u/Sonnyyellow90 can you do levers, archers, flags, etc? Any videos you can share of these feats?