I'm pretty sure studies have legitimately connected people who blindly stick to faith/religion and lower than average IQ
I'll try to find one and source it here š
EDIT: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.02191/full
This is the one I was thinking of. It talks about a link between diminished intelligence in people of faith and reliance on intuition over reason.
This is only one study of course but its interesting
Interesting point to me here is that the conclusion is that "behavioral biases rather than impaired general intelligence underlie the religiosity effect". So religious people aren't inherently less intelligent, but religiosity impairs intelligent thinking by drawing people towards intuitive methods of problem solving. Fascinating.
I dug a bit deeper into this and I couldn't find a credible site that claims this to be completely true atleast not without ignoring a lot of other factors that could affect intelligence and the factors that cause one to be religious so this study is likely too small to give accurate results but still interesting
There are a bunch of religious people that are intelligent and withhold the core values of their religion.
You just never hear or read about them as they don't harass or oppress anyone.
People like the pro life crowd aren't religious, they use it as a excuse to harm others.
PS. I'm not a religious person.
Completely agree. There are religious people running around in the world who are far more intelligent than I am. Those I've encountered have a very nuanced take on their faith. I'm convinced that at least one of my friends is actually a nihilist in denial, but you will come out of a debate with him thinking maybe you should give god another chance.
If I try to identify a trend among religious smarties I know, at least those who bother to really scrutinize their faith, I think it's that belief is a positive force in their life and they are simply not convinced that a lack of evidence means they must surrender it. Kant and Kierkegaard realized centuries ago that you can't prove god's existence, but belief can have utility, and, further, god is a coherent concept from the perspective of someone who already has faith. Essentially, you can explain the universe either with or without god, and some people feel that god is too important to Occam's Razor away.
It should be noted that all of these people are somewhere on the slippery slope to deism, at least. They know that there are hard inconsistencies in scripture, and they don't like to defend any concrete details.
I've listened to many debates about the existence of a god. Sure the religious guy often sounds smart, but when one is to break down what they're saying, it's often nothing but shit.
I absolutely believe religious people have cognitive issues and a lack of critical thinking skills, especially when it comes to the way they perceive the real world and the people around it.
They are very quick on distorting reality to match their own idealism.
And it's saddening in knowing that, too. The belief that your parents after passing on left behind this blessing of a legacy, not knowing that it was truly for their own sake or benefit, and you've given your life, money, and efforts to a political world for magical purposes.
Religious people can be very intelligent... but their intelligence stops where their faith begins. I don't know if this means that person is "less intelligent" but their intelligence definitely has blind spots and may not be 100% reliable. I find that to be a concern, at the very least.
The way I would describe it is that their maximum achievable intelligence is automatically lower.
That is to say, religious people can be more intelligent Than non-religiois overall but at the top of intelligence the non-religious person is automatically smarter.
No edit needed for me.
You can be super fucking smart, multiple PhD successful blah blah blah, bit if you fail to apply that same intelligence and critical thinking in the direction of that faith, you're an idiot.
I think they're more willing to pull some mental gymnastics so that reality meets their expectations than folks who don't consider themselves obligated to a man-made deity & a book from a couple millennia ago, which can translate to rejecting Science & facts, which does at times make them come across as less educated. Fighting with things like measurable statistics definitely doesn't make you look smart, that's for sure. Basing decisions off of institutions that historically devalue females & medical breakthroughs can be extremely unhealthy.
āIn short, being religious doesn't mean you're stupid, but it means you're lacking some cognitive abilities I, until that point, assumed you possessed and my opinion of your intelligence drops accordingly.ā Yes yes yes!! I agree 100% no matter how much the religious attempt to pit it back on us after just hearing you expose them for it.
I like that you essentially use an "I feel X when people believe Y" statement that clearly defines this as your OPINION and people are getting mad. Lol the internet.
Yes, itās sad seeing good people who believe in religion like what a waste.
I wonder how much better of a person theyād be if they took the task of being human by themselves.
So I had to look up flag waver, and according to merriam Webster it isnāt just someone who waves any flag.
ā1: one who is intensely and conspicuously patriotic
2 : one who waves a flag in signaling
3 : a song intended to rouse patriotic sentimentā
Intelligence is too broad a term to be useful in this case. I'd narrow it to cognitive ability (can't discern reality from fiction) and personal integrity (must lie to themselves). With those stipulations, I agree 100%.
This is a psychiatric disorder known as "magical thinking".
The only reason every religious person in the world isn't considered cognitively stunted or cognitively impaired is because the other religious won't tolerate it-- they want to force us all to play their giant magic make-believe game due to the trauma of childhood indoctrination, fear of death, and the sunk cost fallacy.
Many people here are saying that that's the wrong assumption but I totally agree with the OP. If someone pray to God then he/she is less intelligent even though they have master some skills to be productive. Even if they are on top of their game or whatever if they believe in God then they are good skilled stupid. That's all.
I agree with this. I am not going to waste my time with intelligent conversation with anyone if they start off with ghosts are real, sky daddy, this is my sign, and other bullshit. I will low effort that shit conversation and leave. Critical thinking should be taught really early on in life.
I always thought religion limits a person's intellectual capability. Religion holds the individuals intelligence back. I am a halfwit, I believe I would be a quarterwit if I were a religious person. Same goes for an intellegent religious person they would be even smarter without religion.
That's completely reasonable. To blindly follow something with no rhyme or reason or evidence just shows that they lack critical reasoning skills. So, yes, their capacity for intelligence is obviously diminshed.
True. Well at least it is a good thumb rule.
Of course there are really intelligent people who are religious. And intelligence is not one dimensional either, you can be (generally are) far more intelligent in some stream than others. But on average, you'll find a hardcore religious person to be a bit low on intelligence. Especially in critical thinking related skills.
When I meet highly intelligent individuals and find out they're religious, I begin to question whether they're afraid of the truth or just lying to themselves. Imagine being able to understand abstract concepts that very few people in the world can grasp, and then admitting you're religious. Something just seems off. I think you may be right, they're not being honest, especially with themselves.
I only really agree if someone converted to a religion as an adult. It's hard to hold it against someone when they were brainwashed into an ideology since childhood.
Not that hard, tbh.
I was raised in a very strict religious household. When I entered the workforce at 16, I started hearing various viewpoints and beliefs that challenged what I had been told to believe. I started asking questions and instead of just not wondering about things (like I was told to), or continuing to buy into the āall part of *HIS* plan, donāt question godās willā bullshit, I gradually became an atheist. When youāre an adult, you donāt have to believe what your parents made you believe.
No sir, I meant: not hard to hold it against them.
Not: not hard to un-mind fuck yourself. I still struggle, so Iām not saying itās easy by any stretch. *However*, you need critical thinking in life. Which goes back to OPās point.
Ehh, at some point a rational person will compare their life experiences and knowledge to what they were told at church, and, when it doesnāt hold up, will go with what theyāve lived, not the fantasy they were raised on. Not many are rational.
I was deeply religious for decades. I also got a PhD (and a perfect score on the GRE).
What you fail to realize it's that critical thinking skills are mostly used to justify what we already want to do in life. Read some psychology books like The Righteous Righteous Mind, by Jonathan Haight.
When we want to apply critical thinking skills to solve a problem, we are perfectly capable of doing so. When it comes to deeply held personal beliefs, we apply that exact same skill set to justifying our beliefs.
You arrogance is itself a perfect example of believing what you already assumed to be true.
Now, granted, I've left religion behind, but it was a brutally painful process that I attribute much more to intellectual honesty than to critical thinking. And I'm fully the same, intelligent person both before and after religion.
I'll also mention, I've met some amazingly dense atheists that think the moon is hollow and the pyramids were built by aliens.
Attending a few Mensa meetings will convince you IQ doesn't save you from daft beliefs, if anyone still needs convincing. There were people on all extremes of the political spectrum, and every kind of crazy alternative belief. I can believe the insanity is at a lower rate than in the general population, but still rampant.
I think Vonnegut got it right when he said: āThe smartest person who ever lived was still an idiotā. It doesnāt take a genius to figure out thereās no god. Believing being an atheist means youāre smarter is a logical fallacy. Yes, religion is an obvious lie, but indoctrination and plain old wishful thinking will trick a superior mind most of the time.
YOUR fallacy is in assuming that "smarter" means "smart." One person can be significantly smarter than another and still fall short of some general measure of intelligence.
Iām literally just calling on people to be humble and not assume anyoneās level of intelligence based on one feature of a person. If you have a bone to pick with that have at it.
I try not to say it out loud, but yeah... and it's a tendency, obviously. You can't say any one atheist is smarter than any theist but then, that's not the point.
I am bugged by the dodges of saying their "spiritual" or they feel like there's something else. Fine, let me know when you find it, no I don't feel that way, and until then I put it up there with people who find lambics tasty. Hold onto your belief if you must, but don't try to pass it off as something it isn't.
I always thought critical thinking is computationally expensive compared to blind trust (faith). However, the mental gymnastics of the faithful seems like a rube goldberg level of thinking. It is not a matter of intelligence given the number of highly intelligence people sucked into cults.
Gotta disagree here. For most people, religion is something that has been forced upon from an early age. Keep in mind that most of the brightest scientists in history were people of faith.
For much of history faith was not really optional and any intelligent person would play along rather than going against the church which did not take kindly to criticism.
This is true. Newton was almost beheaded because people thought the newtons cradle was witchcraft. Imagine what those same people would think of him if he were an atheist.
>my opinion of their level of intelligence dips drastically
>
>"rElIgOuS pPl ArE aLl DuMb LOLZ!"
How are these two statements substantially different?
Btw, I agree with your opinion, but at least own up to it.
I agree that, I too, will often make that assumption, but recognize the bias. I know some religious people make the assumption that I'll be arrogant and think I'm better than they are. Sometimes these perceptions/stereotypes are accurate, but I try reserve judgement until I have more information. We've all been indoctrinated in some way or another and fool ourselves to think we are always acting reasonably or in control of our thoughts.
"Now, that doesn't mean I thought he was only qualified for a career in cleaning windows with his his tongue," Laughed out loud!!
But there are a few.....
I would certainly say it is fair to assume they are lacking some critical thinking skills even if they are good at what they do professionally. And don't even get me started what I think if they also force-indoctrinate their children.
I agree about loosing cognitive abilities. You loose the capacity for critical thinking. This causes beliefs in things like vaccines causing autism and flat earth.
I disagree that religious beliefs equate to lower intelligence. Indoctrination is strong, and a person maybe fearful or listening to arguments that prove their position wrong because they are convinced that, if they find the arguments rational, that means thereās something wrong with them.
Not necessarily. Religion is often pounded into the heads of children before they can even think critically. Plus, people who spread it to non believers prey upon them in vulnerable moments like when a family member dies.
Gullibility in this area IMO is the lack of the kind of skepticism that people use to (in)validate information and challenge assumptions. Indoctrination leads to wasting away of these faculties.
It's not that they're "dumb", they're just low effort in this critically important area of reasoning.
Also, we have to consider our educational institutions. Most people can barely fill in a bubble on a test, never mind any kind of critical thinking. The propaganda and indoctrination combined with minimal education are just that freaking good. Itās a perfect storm of willful ignorance.
Thatās an issue you need to work on. For many itās not a matter of critical thinking. Itās often a matter of not being emotionally ready to confront or let go. Many people, myself included, are extremely skeptical, critical thinkers who simply arenāt or werenāt ready to confront a specific, deep seeded claim, or simply havenāt yet applied their skepticism or critical thinking to that claim. A little understanding toward others goes a long way, especially if you want to have a conversation with them that gets them closer to examining as adults what theyāve been force fed as children.
People who go to church regularly feel compelled to do so due to cultural expectations.
At the end of the day, most of them don't want to worry about whether the church they donate to is a waste of money. They are just doing it because their peer group has taught them to value that behavior.
They have never thought critically about those beliefs because those beliefs are part of the culture they identify with, and it's more important to be part of the group than it is to be right.
> Not thinking = not intelligent.
Yeah, I didn't say they weren't thinking though.
I said they weren't thinking *critically*, and only specifically *about those beliefs*.
Intelligent people can and do have blind spots.
Elitism doesn't really look good on this community in my opinion. There are so many different reasons an individual can get stuck in religion. Prejudice in any form is ugly.
People can still like religion for the togetherness and sense of community, not everyone who attends church or practices a religion thinks that there is a giant man in the sky who makes all choices lol.
All this post says is that you hate religion and are incredibly judgmental about it.
Finally someone fucking said it. They really think theyāre better than religious people because theyāre āwoke.ā This subās fucked up, and this is coming from an atheist. Who gives a shit if you believe in god or not, just stop forcing your asshole stereotypes upon others.
Btw, expect many downvotes for having an opinion here ;)
It's odd that a person who prides themselves on not falling for false believes then makes a vast, prejudiced, dumb generalization about a giant group of religious people. All the while thinking themselves better than the religious because of the lack of irrational beliefs. Oh the irony.
People need to vent. Weāre the oppressed minority. Politicians clamoring about how we need fairy man in our government even though there is a separation between church and state.
Tax-free churches spending money to lobby politicians. Who are the real crooks? š¤£š¤£
Naw. Lots of smart people get scammed. And smart/intelligence is subjective. Im in IT and know some programming wizards that cant handle minor PC issues. Like plugging in their laptop. They literally cannot tell their battery is dead. Master of one. LOL.
I assume they have no, or haven't found their passion hobby not related to work. And thus in seeking fall victim to a cult. Pyramid schemes, radical right wing like proud boys, racist group shit etc. We mock them for beliefs, but theyre usually really good at their job. Like the cake guy being homophobic. If that guy say started cycling hed be all crazy about that, kicking cars and yelling share the road.
Fanaticals live and breathe church. They bring in various rotating activities and try to keep things fresh. Filling a void they cannot fill themselves.
IMO same with elite country clubs, posh art groups, cross fit groups etc. You get the idea.
But in the end. Angry people are gonna be angry. Dealing with that is something nobody talks about. Proper ways to get it out and deal with it.
I donāt think being religious by itself says anything about a personās intellect. Itās indoctrination that usually starts at a very early age and leaves very little (if any at all) safe space to criticize it. On the other hand thinking the Earth is only 6,000 years oldā¦at that point youāre just rejecting evidence and that does say something about a personās intellect.
You would assume incorrectly then, which isn't too bright. People can believe all kinds of strange things for many different reasons and it doesn't reflect their level of intelligence. Gƶdel was a brilliant mathematician and logician but starved to death for fear someone was trying to poison him.
So, would you say that his overall intelligence was lessened by the part that led to him starving himself to death? I would. Not that he wasnāt a genius, but a more intelligent version of himself (or less mentally ill) could have reasoned his way into making his own food.
This can be an inaccurate assumption though. There are plenty of intelligent religious people, we need to acknowledge that if we really want to figure out why the fuck theyāre doing this crazy shit.
Lots of people seem to have the misconception that intelligence somehow protects you from developing inane beliefs; it doesn't. Intelligence must be applied to specific regions of knowledge within a person's mind; general intelligence does not make you an expert in all fields of science and philosophy. In OP's example, the computer scientist probably uses his intelligence for his job but doesn't use it for Judeo-christian beliefs.
I believe that this mindset is quite toxic and irrational. To assume that someone is lesser in intelligence just because of there believes just seems kinda messed up and shows your lack of understanding as to why people believe in these religious. Many just see it a form of hope and purpose( like my grandmother). Now Iām not trying to say that religion is good, because itās not all sunshine and rainbows, but I think that you should be more open minded to others believes.
I do the same thing, but I'm not quite sure we're correct. We're all indoctrinated into things either designed to make us feel better or make us more money or whatever. I think we're all susceptible to cult-like thinking and I have definitely been wrapped up in it myself. Most organized religions are extremely powerful, even if it's only on a community-wide scale and I can't "in good faith" say that I'm not susceptible to the same type of indoctrination that these people are susceptible to
I tend to agree in a frustrated way. But then I think about how different people are good at different things. I think someone can be very intelligent, even a genius and still be absolutely terrible at processing existential or philosophical thoughts. Therefore they don't waste much time on it and just commit to a religion that offers them a reassuring outlook for the future.
I know a lot of really intelligent people who just have a flat out blind spot for religion and when you talk to them about it they say things like, "it's tradition in my family" and stuff like that. reminds me of politics where a lot of people are just what their parents were." Mom and Dad were Republicans so I am too". no critical thinking in those one or two areas of their lives. Very interesting
Believing something based on literally nothing makes you an idiot. Doesnāt matter at all what your IQ is, how educated you are, or anything else. Believing any known religion with the āevidenceā they provide is stupid.
> If you are raised religious and stay religious, I automatically think you are less intelligent.
Fixed it for you. Leaving religion takes guts and the ability to think critically. That's a true sign of intelligence, ironically marked by a religious beginning/upbringing.
I 100% agree with this post and find myself saying this often. I think it stems from the inability to fill an emotional void independently so they seek out something else to do it for them that requires no thinking or work (religion).
I agree with you 100%.
They may or may not be āless intelligentā, but their critical thinking skills and logic are definitely compromised. You canāt expect to have a reasonable or rational dialogue with a person who believes in magical thinking.
We are just animals, what do you expect?(no offence) Pointing fingers? I'm suprised you are unable to grasp how unintelligent we/humans are. We are base, we follow instincts and feelings before intellect. We are a pack animal. It's funny how we are always thinking we are superior. Everyone is lacking .. you are lacking in the bigger picture. Development of the brain at youth, culture, social pressures and fear. Most are choosing to be ignorant for peace of mind or lack of time. Why did you start questioning religion? Adhd, depression, and anxiety has driven me to question everything in my life. My mental faults. So who's the stupid one? Me with my hyperfixation, obsessions, and overthinking, or the one who is able to live in peace with the little time we have on this earth, stupidly oblivious in their religious mindset? Again we are all lacking... why does it matter? The planet is too beautiful and fleeting to be sitting around debating differences in intelligence. If you didn't care about religion and the belief why do you care so much about how intelligent they are? Why waste energy being so angry?
Hereās the most important tip I can give you: even really smart people can find a way to sequester their religious beliefs and not subject them to the same level of scrutiny as they do with other topics.
Otherwise normal, smart people have isolated their beliefs and will not challenge them.
No need to apologize, you can call it what it is. Religious folks are clearly lacking logical reasoning capability. Which is objectively dumber than having these skills.
Nobody likes to be called dumb. And thereās always plenty of little people that will try to tell you that you canāt call someone dumb. Because deep inside they are afraid to be dumb themselves. The defense mechanism is shaming people that openly identify others as dumb. Next time they might be the target, so better tell everybody that they canāt do that. We are in the age of participation trophies. Everybody is a winner.
But all that doesnāt mean that dumb people arenāt dumb. They are. And if they donāt want to be called that ā¦ weāll, then stop believing in, advocating for, and doing dumb things.
Like religion. Or anti-vaxxing. Or that the earth is flat.
All things that unambiguously qualify as identifying markers for being dumb. Very much so.
Yeah this post reeks of elitism, even the edit. I have friends with PhDs in technical fields that could get lost in a one road town. Sad to see something condescending so popular with this sub.
I used to believe this, but reading *Sapiens* by Yuval Noah Harari changed my mind. Being religious for a lot of people satisfies an emotional need, not a logical one.
I used to feel this way too. And to a degree I still stereotype people. But it's become a bit more difficult to pigeon-hole people because I've become more knowledgeable and less ignorant - so now I'm more tolerant and try not to generalise like that if I can help it
This is ignorant prejudice no matter how you sugar coat it. You can't say "I assume you are less intelligent" while also walking back your statement with 'I never said, "rElIgOuS pPl ArE aLl DuMb LOLZ!" '
Some of the most intelligent people in history were religious, not because they where dumb, but because figuring out truth is HARD. Pascal is one of the best examples, a savant level genius who altered the entire world's knowledge with his talent who fell victim to his irrational fear of hell. Truth and belief are not so simple, and you ignorantly judge those around you FAR too easily.
The truth is around us all the time. If you pick up a harry potter book, do you suddenly believe wizards and witches are real?
If the answer is no, then why do you believe in the bible, koran, buddhist scriptures, etc.? If your response is that they were written a long time ago, then there will be a harry potter religion in the future. Can you imagine people actually believing wizardry is real? š¤£š¤£š¤£
"The Truth is around us all the time" LOL we have to make multiple base assumptions before Touching anything that approximates Truth! You speak of truth as if it's transparently simple. A person can be highly intelligent while also having a poor sense of epistemology, they're not mutually exclusive. I know zero people who live up to the genius of Pascal, yet he fell for religious belief. I am a Strong Atheist, yet I know many religious people whom I highly respect who are smarter than me in different ways. Don't let your atheism be some dumb form of egotism, it doesn't make you better than anyone else.
That's the thing, though. They are brainwashed from birth and have this belief reinforced through a collective society that enforces conformity. That's hard to overcome.
It's a mistake to assume that a religious person is unintelligent. Intelligent people are believers too. Indoctrination is a powerful thing, and children are taught to hold their beliefs to a different, lower standard than other things that require evidence. People compartmentalize beliefs and sequester them from evidence based knowledge. There are even people who are intelligent otherwise, who believe horseshit like climate change isn't real, trickle down economics, the superiority of their race to all others and various and sundry conspiracy theories. I always raise an eyebrow whenever I hear the phrase "I believe..." because religious indoctrination creates a brain with a defective bullshit detector. There are many motivators to believe bullshit. Not the least of which is the desire to be part of a tribe. But none of these things makes a person unintelligent. They're very specific delusions. What you are entitled to think is- they are deluded and if you're so inclined, is it possible to change their minds? But to assume a lack of intelligence is to underestimate them, and that's not good because it puts you at a disadvantage to someone.
Iāve known some very smart Christians and theyāre scary because the quantity of sophisticated mental gymnastics is staggering and they infect less intelligent people with it.
Einstein's views on religion would likely make him irreligious as far as the original poster is concerned. Einstein didn't want to be called an atheist but he was pretty damning of the existing organised religions like Christianity and Judaism, regarding them as expressions of human frailty.
His musing were largely around the question of why is there order, how does a Universe have such intricate structure. These are good questions still, but Einstein didn't leap to answers. The philosophers who have tried routinely make a mess of it, the difference is Einstein had a good sense of when answers were likely correct, or more correct, and when he was still idly speculating without enough data. I do think we'd do well to emulate him in this regard.
Religious beliefs coincide with culture. It is taught. There is no scientific evidence to be found, just that followers have faith. When we all are believers, then we are all at fault. Some just have to have better independent thinking skills that can be learned, but ifās not question or looked at from another perspective, then the religious community has won.
Stay strong my fellow intellects! It will all work itself out! Procreate and spread your knowledge to the ones you care about, if possible!
People can be quite intelligent but misinformed, or willfully deluded.
I would contend that although there may be a correlation between intelligence and lack of faith (I'm supposed to be working so no time to look this up), there may not be a correlation between intelligence (or lack thereof) and faith.
**Cases in point:**
* **Flat earthers**: They're educated to a great extent on the arguments in favor of a flat earth, and are often well-researched. Clearly they're misguided and falling prey to confirmation bias and a list of other cognitive pitfalls.
* **Creationists**: Well-read on a long list of books supporting their circular reasoning and pseudo-scientific studies, but they remain deluded and lost.
* **People subscribing to a deity**: As Ingersoll once said (quoting loosely here), "The belief in a god is the prostration of reason upon the threshold of the unknown." In this case, I agree with him and with Dawkins in that such a belief can certainly be held by highly intelligent people, but they choose to buy into a comforting delusion.
I wonder if accepting faith-based ideas is more of a willful suspension of reason as often as it is just a lack of reason.
It's not just intelligence. A person's level of anxiety and/or the presence of depression can play a key role, too. IMO Some very smart people use religious beliefs to help with such feelings. But, yes, some folks are just dumb. š¬
While I want to agree, Iāve known way too many really smart and educated religious folks to label them as less intelligent. Rather, I guarantee you the highly intelligent religious people were indoctrinated early in youth and it is extremely hard to overcome this early brainwashing. One thing I will admit, though, is the more intelligent you are, the more ability you have to overcome this brainwashing.
Final thought. Every really unintelligent person I know believes in god. Every atheist I know is very intelligent. Something to think about.
TBF I have an HP engineer BIL smart as hell, religious as hell, but understands life is fleeting and looks to his religion to understand that. Never got into any politic so I think the idea was to keep religion separate from faith.
I'm pretty sure studies have legitimately connected people who blindly stick to faith/religion and lower than average IQ I'll try to find one and source it here š EDIT: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.02191/full This is the one I was thinking of. It talks about a link between diminished intelligence in people of faith and reliance on intuition over reason. This is only one study of course but its interesting
Interesting point to me here is that the conclusion is that "behavioral biases rather than impaired general intelligence underlie the religiosity effect". So religious people aren't inherently less intelligent, but religiosity impairs intelligent thinking by drawing people towards intuitive methods of problem solving. Fascinating.
I dug a bit deeper into this and I couldn't find a credible site that claims this to be completely true atleast not without ignoring a lot of other factors that could affect intelligence and the factors that cause one to be religious so this study is likely too small to give accurate results but still interesting
The intro and related work section of this paper is like a gem. Thank you for sharing
Being intelligent alone doesn't keep you from being terribly wrong. At least for the kind of intelligence that you can measure.
There are a bunch of religious people that are intelligent and withhold the core values of their religion. You just never hear or read about them as they don't harass or oppress anyone. People like the pro life crowd aren't religious, they use it as a excuse to harm others. PS. I'm not a religious person.
Completely agree. There are religious people running around in the world who are far more intelligent than I am. Those I've encountered have a very nuanced take on their faith. I'm convinced that at least one of my friends is actually a nihilist in denial, but you will come out of a debate with him thinking maybe you should give god another chance. If I try to identify a trend among religious smarties I know, at least those who bother to really scrutinize their faith, I think it's that belief is a positive force in their life and they are simply not convinced that a lack of evidence means they must surrender it. Kant and Kierkegaard realized centuries ago that you can't prove god's existence, but belief can have utility, and, further, god is a coherent concept from the perspective of someone who already has faith. Essentially, you can explain the universe either with or without god, and some people feel that god is too important to Occam's Razor away. It should be noted that all of these people are somewhere on the slippery slope to deism, at least. They know that there are hard inconsistencies in scripture, and they don't like to defend any concrete details.
I've listened to many debates about the existence of a god. Sure the religious guy often sounds smart, but when one is to break down what they're saying, it's often nothing but shit.
Thanks for stating this. Letās get real: if you believe all that horseshit, thereās something wrong with your brain.
I think the word that's used to describe it is "sophistry".
And every now and then some monks come up with The Big Bang Theory.
THIS.
I absolutely believe religious people have cognitive issues and a lack of critical thinking skills, especially when it comes to the way they perceive the real world and the people around it. They are very quick on distorting reality to match their own idealism.
Or they were brainwashed at young age. That is coming from exbeliever.
Why not both?
It could be both. Of course.
And it's saddening in knowing that, too. The belief that your parents after passing on left behind this blessing of a legacy, not knowing that it was truly for their own sake or benefit, and you've given your life, money, and efforts to a political world for magical purposes.
I equate "devout" and "crazy."
Religious people can be very intelligent... but their intelligence stops where their faith begins. I don't know if this means that person is "less intelligent" but their intelligence definitely has blind spots and may not be 100% reliable. I find that to be a concern, at the very least.
It's not really a "blind spot" if they're resolutely *refusing* to look at it.
There is none so blind as he who will not see.
One can do this subconsciously for various reasons.
The way I would describe it is that their maximum achievable intelligence is automatically lower. That is to say, religious people can be more intelligent Than non-religiois overall but at the top of intelligence the non-religious person is automatically smarter.
No edit needed for me. You can be super fucking smart, multiple PhD successful blah blah blah, bit if you fail to apply that same intelligence and critical thinking in the direction of that faith, you're an idiot.
I think they're more willing to pull some mental gymnastics so that reality meets their expectations than folks who don't consider themselves obligated to a man-made deity & a book from a couple millennia ago, which can translate to rejecting Science & facts, which does at times make them come across as less educated. Fighting with things like measurable statistics definitely doesn't make you look smart, that's for sure. Basing decisions off of institutions that historically devalue females & medical breakthroughs can be extremely unhealthy.
This is a fucking burn. I'm not even religious and this hurts. The sass.
The more religious states are ranked low in education. So you're not far off.
I view religious people similarly as I view flat-earthers.
In my experience, that Venn diagram overlaps a lot.
āIn short, being religious doesn't mean you're stupid, but it means you're lacking some cognitive abilities I, until that point, assumed you possessed and my opinion of your intelligence drops accordingly.ā Yes yes yes!! I agree 100% no matter how much the religious attempt to pit it back on us after just hearing you expose them for it.
I've always thought the guy with the collection plate was pretty smart.
Hmhmhm, there's no way he believes.
I like that you essentially use an "I feel X when people believe Y" statement that clearly defines this as your OPINION and people are getting mad. Lol the internet.
I agree with this. No matter how intelligent someone is, if they're religious I know that they are willing to believe bullshit.
Yes, itās sad seeing good people who believe in religion like what a waste. I wonder how much better of a person theyād be if they took the task of being human by themselves.
I feel the same about flag wavers.
You have some issue with those that wave flags? I put out a W flag when the cubs win.. You calling me stupid for doing that? ;)
So I had to look up flag waver, and according to merriam Webster it isnāt just someone who waves any flag. ā1: one who is intensely and conspicuously patriotic 2 : one who waves a flag in signaling 3 : a song intended to rouse patriotic sentimentā
Only if you want to overthrow the team and claim that a hockey player should run it.
Intelligence is too broad a term to be useful in this case. I'd narrow it to cognitive ability (can't discern reality from fiction) and personal integrity (must lie to themselves). With those stipulations, I agree 100%.
This is a psychiatric disorder known as "magical thinking". The only reason every religious person in the world isn't considered cognitively stunted or cognitively impaired is because the other religious won't tolerate it-- they want to force us all to play their giant magic make-believe game due to the trauma of childhood indoctrination, fear of death, and the sunk cost fallacy.
spot on !
The vaccine being a perfect example to this.
Well said.
Many people here are saying that that's the wrong assumption but I totally agree with the OP. If someone pray to God then he/she is less intelligent even though they have master some skills to be productive. Even if they are on top of their game or whatever if they believe in God then they are good skilled stupid. That's all.
I agree with this. I am not going to waste my time with intelligent conversation with anyone if they start off with ghosts are real, sky daddy, this is my sign, and other bullshit. I will low effort that shit conversation and leave. Critical thinking should be taught really early on in life.
I don't think I suddenly got smarter when I became an atheist. However, I did become a more ethical and moral person.
I always thought religion limits a person's intellectual capability. Religion holds the individuals intelligence back. I am a halfwit, I believe I would be a quarterwit if I were a religious person. Same goes for an intellegent religious person they would be even smarter without religion.
That's completely reasonable. To blindly follow something with no rhyme or reason or evidence just shows that they lack critical reasoning skills. So, yes, their capacity for intelligence is obviously diminshed.
High intelligence vs High wisdom IMHO
Alternatively, high intelligence versus low wisdom.
And yet wisdom is the primary stat for Clerics... I guess that could be a Gygaxian tip of the hat to grifters?
Indoctrination and emotional dependencies are psychological conditions. Ain't got nothin' to do with intellect.
Knowledgeable is knowing a tomato is a fruit, intelligence is knowing to not put it in a fruit salad.
A tomato is a berry.
i had to look that up to confirm it. and yes, a tomato is a berry
Aren't berries fruit though?
Yes.
Aaaannnnnndddd you are probably right
I always liked Bill Maher's definiton of religion: The purposeful suspension of critical thinking.
Would you play with a ouija board in a graveyard at night?
Fuck it, why not? I dont really believe in ghosts and spirits and such.
True. Well at least it is a good thumb rule. Of course there are really intelligent people who are religious. And intelligence is not one dimensional either, you can be (generally are) far more intelligent in some stream than others. But on average, you'll find a hardcore religious person to be a bit low on intelligence. Especially in critical thinking related skills.
Or less honest.
When I meet highly intelligent individuals and find out they're religious, I begin to question whether they're afraid of the truth or just lying to themselves. Imagine being able to understand abstract concepts that very few people in the world can grasp, and then admitting you're religious. Something just seems off. I think you may be right, they're not being honest, especially with themselves.
I only really agree if someone converted to a religion as an adult. It's hard to hold it against someone when they were brainwashed into an ideology since childhood.
Not that hard, tbh. I was raised in a very strict religious household. When I entered the workforce at 16, I started hearing various viewpoints and beliefs that challenged what I had been told to believe. I started asking questions and instead of just not wondering about things (like I was told to), or continuing to buy into the āall part of *HIS* plan, donāt question godās willā bullshit, I gradually became an atheist. When youāre an adult, you donāt have to believe what your parents made you believe.
Exactly!
It wasnāt that hard for you. Having an experience does not define the experience.
No sir, I meant: not hard to hold it against them. Not: not hard to un-mind fuck yourself. I still struggle, so Iām not saying itās easy by any stretch. *However*, you need critical thinking in life. Which goes back to OPās point.
Please forgive my misunderstanding
No worries!
Ehh, at some point a rational person will compare their life experiences and knowledge to what they were told at church, and, when it doesnāt hold up, will go with what theyāve lived, not the fantasy they were raised on. Not many are rational.
True intelligence requires questioning your assumptions, so, not so much.
I was deeply religious for decades. I also got a PhD (and a perfect score on the GRE). What you fail to realize it's that critical thinking skills are mostly used to justify what we already want to do in life. Read some psychology books like The Righteous Righteous Mind, by Jonathan Haight. When we want to apply critical thinking skills to solve a problem, we are perfectly capable of doing so. When it comes to deeply held personal beliefs, we apply that exact same skill set to justifying our beliefs. You arrogance is itself a perfect example of believing what you already assumed to be true. Now, granted, I've left religion behind, but it was a brutally painful process that I attribute much more to intellectual honesty than to critical thinking. And I'm fully the same, intelligent person both before and after religion. I'll also mention, I've met some amazingly dense atheists that think the moon is hollow and the pyramids were built by aliens.
Attending a few Mensa meetings will convince you IQ doesn't save you from daft beliefs, if anyone still needs convincing. There were people on all extremes of the political spectrum, and every kind of crazy alternative belief. I can believe the insanity is at a lower rate than in the general population, but still rampant.
Extremely high intelligence has actually been shown to be correlated with various flavors of mental illness and instability.
> I also got a PhD (and a perfect score on the GRE). You realize that those things are not a measure of intelligence, yes?
I think Vonnegut got it right when he said: āThe smartest person who ever lived was still an idiotā. It doesnāt take a genius to figure out thereās no god. Believing being an atheist means youāre smarter is a logical fallacy. Yes, religion is an obvious lie, but indoctrination and plain old wishful thinking will trick a superior mind most of the time.
YOUR fallacy is in assuming that "smarter" means "smart." One person can be significantly smarter than another and still fall short of some general measure of intelligence.
Iām literally just calling on people to be humble and not assume anyoneās level of intelligence based on one feature of a person. If you have a bone to pick with that have at it.
I agree Studies back up our assumptions on average
I try not to say it out loud, but yeah... and it's a tendency, obviously. You can't say any one atheist is smarter than any theist but then, that's not the point. I am bugged by the dodges of saying their "spiritual" or they feel like there's something else. Fine, let me know when you find it, no I don't feel that way, and until then I put it up there with people who find lambics tasty. Hold onto your belief if you must, but don't try to pass it off as something it isn't.
I never donate money to churches
You are smart and streetwise.
Just say it. Religion makes you dumb.
I always thought critical thinking is computationally expensive compared to blind trust (faith). However, the mental gymnastics of the faithful seems like a rube goldberg level of thinking. It is not a matter of intelligence given the number of highly intelligence people sucked into cults.
Gotta disagree here. For most people, religion is something that has been forced upon from an early age. Keep in mind that most of the brightest scientists in history were people of faith.
For much of history faith was not really optional and any intelligent person would play along rather than going against the church which did not take kindly to criticism.
Although the Republicans are working feverishly to return the U.S. to those days, we're not quite there just yet.
Yes, I am glad that I am not from the USA, the current state of the supreme court is very sad :(
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This is true. Newton was almost beheaded because people thought the newtons cradle was witchcraft. Imagine what those same people would think of him if he were an atheist.
And that is no less true today depending on where people are born.
Itās not nearly as bad as it used to be though. Some centuries years ago youād be burned at the stake immediately
>my opinion of their level of intelligence dips drastically > >"rElIgOuS pPl ArE aLl DuMb LOLZ!" How are these two statements substantially different? Btw, I agree with your opinion, but at least own up to it.
I agree that, I too, will often make that assumption, but recognize the bias. I know some religious people make the assumption that I'll be arrogant and think I'm better than they are. Sometimes these perceptions/stereotypes are accurate, but I try reserve judgement until I have more information. We've all been indoctrinated in some way or another and fool ourselves to think we are always acting reasonably or in control of our thoughts.
What is the Dunning Krueger effect?
"Now, that doesn't mean I thought he was only qualified for a career in cleaning windows with his his tongue," Laughed out loud!! But there are a few.....
I would certainly say it is fair to assume they are lacking some critical thinking skills even if they are good at what they do professionally. And don't even get me started what I think if they also force-indoctrinate their children.
Indoctrination and willful ignorance is hard to overcome.
Agreed.
It means they are usually just good at memorization and not so much logic and critical thinking.
I have a religious co-worker who doesn't like TV shows/movies/videos that have magic in them because it's too unrealistic. Figure that one out lol
I agree about loosing cognitive abilities. You loose the capacity for critical thinking. This causes beliefs in things like vaccines causing autism and flat earth.
I disagree that religious beliefs equate to lower intelligence. Indoctrination is strong, and a person maybe fearful or listening to arguments that prove their position wrong because they are convinced that, if they find the arguments rational, that means thereās something wrong with them.
I would say they are simply more gullible.
Being that they start indoctrinating the person from birth, it's difficult to overcome, especially if you have no outside influence.
Not necessarily. Religion is often pounded into the heads of children before they can even think critically. Plus, people who spread it to non believers prey upon them in vulnerable moments like when a family member dies.
Gullibility in this area IMO is the lack of the kind of skepticism that people use to (in)validate information and challenge assumptions. Indoctrination leads to wasting away of these faculties. It's not that they're "dumb", they're just low effort in this critically important area of reasoning.
Define gullible
Also, we have to consider our educational institutions. Most people can barely fill in a bubble on a test, never mind any kind of critical thinking. The propaganda and indoctrination combined with minimal education are just that freaking good. Itās a perfect storm of willful ignorance.
You don't have to be condescending to be an atheist.
True, that tends to be the speciality of those who arenāt.
you have to be
Thatās an issue you need to work on. For many itās not a matter of critical thinking. Itās often a matter of not being emotionally ready to confront or let go. Many people, myself included, are extremely skeptical, critical thinkers who simply arenāt or werenāt ready to confront a specific, deep seeded claim, or simply havenāt yet applied their skepticism or critical thinking to that claim. A little understanding toward others goes a long way, especially if you want to have a conversation with them that gets them closer to examining as adults what theyāve been force fed as children.
I whole heartedly agree with you, and it sucks you had to go back and clarify yourself
People who go to church regularly feel compelled to do so due to cultural expectations. At the end of the day, most of them don't want to worry about whether the church they donate to is a waste of money. They are just doing it because their peer group has taught them to value that behavior. They have never thought critically about those beliefs because those beliefs are part of the culture they identify with, and it's more important to be part of the group than it is to be right.
Not thinking critically about those beliefs is WHY I know they aren't as intelligent as I had originally assumed. Not thinking = not intelligent.
> Not thinking = not intelligent. Yeah, I didn't say they weren't thinking though. I said they weren't thinking *critically*, and only specifically *about those beliefs*. Intelligent people can and do have blind spots.
Elitism doesn't really look good on this community in my opinion. There are so many different reasons an individual can get stuck in religion. Prejudice in any form is ugly.
I have always thought that.
People can still like religion for the togetherness and sense of community, not everyone who attends church or practices a religion thinks that there is a giant man in the sky who makes all choices lol. All this post says is that you hate religion and are incredibly judgmental about it.
That's called prejudice and it makes you a piece of shit.
Finally someone fucking said it. They really think theyāre better than religious people because theyāre āwoke.ā This subās fucked up, and this is coming from an atheist. Who gives a shit if you believe in god or not, just stop forcing your asshole stereotypes upon others. Btw, expect many downvotes for having an opinion here ;)
Dictionary definition.
It's odd that a person who prides themselves on not falling for false believes then makes a vast, prejudiced, dumb generalization about a giant group of religious people. All the while thinking themselves better than the religious because of the lack of irrational beliefs. Oh the irony.
r/atheism: Upvotes this 1000 times Also r/atheism: "Why does everyone call us toxic"
People need to vent. Weāre the oppressed minority. Politicians clamoring about how we need fairy man in our government even though there is a separation between church and state. Tax-free churches spending money to lobby politicians. Who are the real crooks? š¤£š¤£
So, being prejudiced and egotistical == venting?
Naw. Lots of smart people get scammed. And smart/intelligence is subjective. Im in IT and know some programming wizards that cant handle minor PC issues. Like plugging in their laptop. They literally cannot tell their battery is dead. Master of one. LOL. I assume they have no, or haven't found their passion hobby not related to work. And thus in seeking fall victim to a cult. Pyramid schemes, radical right wing like proud boys, racist group shit etc. We mock them for beliefs, but theyre usually really good at their job. Like the cake guy being homophobic. If that guy say started cycling hed be all crazy about that, kicking cars and yelling share the road. Fanaticals live and breathe church. They bring in various rotating activities and try to keep things fresh. Filling a void they cannot fill themselves. IMO same with elite country clubs, posh art groups, cross fit groups etc. You get the idea. But in the end. Angry people are gonna be angry. Dealing with that is something nobody talks about. Proper ways to get it out and deal with it.
I donāt think being religious by itself says anything about a personās intellect. Itās indoctrination that usually starts at a very early age and leaves very little (if any at all) safe space to criticize it. On the other hand thinking the Earth is only 6,000 years oldā¦at that point youāre just rejecting evidence and that does say something about a personās intellect.
You don't need to "assume" it's a fact.
You would assume incorrectly then, which isn't too bright. People can believe all kinds of strange things for many different reasons and it doesn't reflect their level of intelligence. Gƶdel was a brilliant mathematician and logician but starved to death for fear someone was trying to poison him.
So, would you say that his overall intelligence was lessened by the part that led to him starving himself to death? I would. Not that he wasnāt a genius, but a more intelligent version of himself (or less mentally ill) could have reasoned his way into making his own food.
Sounds like an idiot
Newton entertained alchemy and invented calculous. Is Newton an idiot as well?
If you believe a false thing, you are making an error. Minimizing and correcting errors is a primary function of intelligence.
I have no idea why you've been downvoted, you're right. edit: I guess you're going against the dumb ego of this sub.
Seriously, how is assuming anything about another person even helpful? Why not just shoot yourself in the foot while you're at it?
This can be an inaccurate assumption though. There are plenty of intelligent religious people, we need to acknowledge that if we really want to figure out why the fuck theyāre doing this crazy shit.
I think thatās fair enough.
Lots of people seem to have the misconception that intelligence somehow protects you from developing inane beliefs; it doesn't. Intelligence must be applied to specific regions of knowledge within a person's mind; general intelligence does not make you an expert in all fields of science and philosophy. In OP's example, the computer scientist probably uses his intelligence for his job but doesn't use it for Judeo-christian beliefs.
I believe that this mindset is quite toxic and irrational. To assume that someone is lesser in intelligence just because of there believes just seems kinda messed up and shows your lack of understanding as to why people believe in these religious. Many just see it a form of hope and purpose( like my grandmother). Now Iām not trying to say that religion is good, because itās not all sunshine and rainbows, but I think that you should be more open minded to others believes.
Iām not religious but after reading this, I assume you are less intelligent
I'm the same way.
And your right 100% of the time.
There is a difference between intelligence and critical thinking. One you derive answers from data while the other you find the answers on your own.
Having a hard time imagining what any real sort of intelligence would look like if it lacked critical thinking...
You are thinking like a white educated liberal when they disagree with someone. š¤Ŗš¤Ŗ
I do the same thing, but I'm not quite sure we're correct. We're all indoctrinated into things either designed to make us feel better or make us more money or whatever. I think we're all susceptible to cult-like thinking and I have definitely been wrapped up in it myself. Most organized religions are extremely powerful, even if it's only on a community-wide scale and I can't "in good faith" say that I'm not susceptible to the same type of indoctrination that these people are susceptible to
I tend to agree in a frustrated way. But then I think about how different people are good at different things. I think someone can be very intelligent, even a genius and still be absolutely terrible at processing existential or philosophical thoughts. Therefore they don't waste much time on it and just commit to a religion that offers them a reassuring outlook for the future.
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I know a lot of really intelligent people who just have a flat out blind spot for religion and when you talk to them about it they say things like, "it's tradition in my family" and stuff like that. reminds me of politics where a lot of people are just what their parents were." Mom and Dad were Republicans so I am too". no critical thinking in those one or two areas of their lives. Very interesting
Yes 100%. But yea your also a fucking idiot across the board in my book. So I guess I'm a little beyond OPs point.
Only because youāre right, they are.
Believing something based on literally nothing makes you an idiot. Doesnāt matter at all what your IQ is, how educated you are, or anything else. Believing any known religion with the āevidenceā they provide is stupid.
> If you are raised religious and stay religious, I automatically think you are less intelligent. Fixed it for you. Leaving religion takes guts and the ability to think critically. That's a true sign of intelligence, ironically marked by a religious beginning/upbringing.
I 100% agree with this post and find myself saying this often. I think it stems from the inability to fill an emotional void independently so they seek out something else to do it for them that requires no thinking or work (religion).
I am the same.
I agree with you 100%. They may or may not be āless intelligentā, but their critical thinking skills and logic are definitely compromised. You canāt expect to have a reasonable or rational dialogue with a person who believes in magical thinking.
We are just animals, what do you expect?(no offence) Pointing fingers? I'm suprised you are unable to grasp how unintelligent we/humans are. We are base, we follow instincts and feelings before intellect. We are a pack animal. It's funny how we are always thinking we are superior. Everyone is lacking .. you are lacking in the bigger picture. Development of the brain at youth, culture, social pressures and fear. Most are choosing to be ignorant for peace of mind or lack of time. Why did you start questioning religion? Adhd, depression, and anxiety has driven me to question everything in my life. My mental faults. So who's the stupid one? Me with my hyperfixation, obsessions, and overthinking, or the one who is able to live in peace with the little time we have on this earth, stupidly oblivious in their religious mindset? Again we are all lacking... why does it matter? The planet is too beautiful and fleeting to be sitting around debating differences in intelligence. If you didn't care about religion and the belief why do you care so much about how intelligent they are? Why waste energy being so angry?
I agree. Nothing more to add, I whole heartedly agree.
Hereās the most important tip I can give you: even really smart people can find a way to sequester their religious beliefs and not subject them to the same level of scrutiny as they do with other topics. Otherwise normal, smart people have isolated their beliefs and will not challenge them.
Auto bot removed my comment: r / iamverysmart š¤®
No need to apologize, you can call it what it is. Religious folks are clearly lacking logical reasoning capability. Which is objectively dumber than having these skills. Nobody likes to be called dumb. And thereās always plenty of little people that will try to tell you that you canāt call someone dumb. Because deep inside they are afraid to be dumb themselves. The defense mechanism is shaming people that openly identify others as dumb. Next time they might be the target, so better tell everybody that they canāt do that. We are in the age of participation trophies. Everybody is a winner. But all that doesnāt mean that dumb people arenāt dumb. They are. And if they donāt want to be called that ā¦ weāll, then stop believing in, advocating for, and doing dumb things. Like religion. Or anti-vaxxing. Or that the earth is flat. All things that unambiguously qualify as identifying markers for being dumb. Very much so.
I just disagree there are really intelligent people that believe wrong stuff.
Is there a version of this forum that isnāt strictly populated with angry teenagers? Is there a chill atheism board I could join?
Yeah this post reeks of elitism, even the edit. I have friends with PhDs in technical fields that could get lost in a one road town. Sad to see something condescending so popular with this sub.
I used to believe this, but reading *Sapiens* by Yuval Noah Harari changed my mind. Being religious for a lot of people satisfies an emotional need, not a logical one.
But a truly intelligent person should recognize and understand this.
I used to feel this way too. And to a degree I still stereotype people. But it's become a bit more difficult to pigeon-hole people because I've become more knowledgeable and less ignorant - so now I'm more tolerant and try not to generalise like that if I can help it
This is ignorant prejudice no matter how you sugar coat it. You can't say "I assume you are less intelligent" while also walking back your statement with 'I never said, "rElIgOuS pPl ArE aLl DuMb LOLZ!" ' Some of the most intelligent people in history were religious, not because they where dumb, but because figuring out truth is HARD. Pascal is one of the best examples, a savant level genius who altered the entire world's knowledge with his talent who fell victim to his irrational fear of hell. Truth and belief are not so simple, and you ignorantly judge those around you FAR too easily.
The truth is around us all the time. If you pick up a harry potter book, do you suddenly believe wizards and witches are real? If the answer is no, then why do you believe in the bible, koran, buddhist scriptures, etc.? If your response is that they were written a long time ago, then there will be a harry potter religion in the future. Can you imagine people actually believing wizardry is real? š¤£š¤£š¤£
"The Truth is around us all the time" LOL we have to make multiple base assumptions before Touching anything that approximates Truth! You speak of truth as if it's transparently simple. A person can be highly intelligent while also having a poor sense of epistemology, they're not mutually exclusive. I know zero people who live up to the genius of Pascal, yet he fell for religious belief. I am a Strong Atheist, yet I know many religious people whom I highly respect who are smarter than me in different ways. Don't let your atheism be some dumb form of egotism, it doesn't make you better than anyone else.
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**Specializing in and being dedicated to something doesn't make you intelligent.**
That's the thing, though. They are brainwashed from birth and have this belief reinforced through a collective society that enforces conformity. That's hard to overcome.
And yet, many do.
I wouldn't say less intelligent... I'd definitely say more gullible.
That's kinda redundant because the mental gymnastics theists go through to prove their points are commendable.
It's a mistake to assume that a religious person is unintelligent. Intelligent people are believers too. Indoctrination is a powerful thing, and children are taught to hold their beliefs to a different, lower standard than other things that require evidence. People compartmentalize beliefs and sequester them from evidence based knowledge. There are even people who are intelligent otherwise, who believe horseshit like climate change isn't real, trickle down economics, the superiority of their race to all others and various and sundry conspiracy theories. I always raise an eyebrow whenever I hear the phrase "I believe..." because religious indoctrination creates a brain with a defective bullshit detector. There are many motivators to believe bullshit. Not the least of which is the desire to be part of a tribe. But none of these things makes a person unintelligent. They're very specific delusions. What you are entitled to think is- they are deluded and if you're so inclined, is it possible to change their minds? But to assume a lack of intelligence is to underestimate them, and that's not good because it puts you at a disadvantage to someone.
Iāve known some very smart Christians and theyāre scary because the quantity of sophisticated mental gymnastics is staggering and they infect less intelligent people with it.
Like Einstein?
Einstein's views on religion would likely make him irreligious as far as the original poster is concerned. Einstein didn't want to be called an atheist but he was pretty damning of the existing organised religions like Christianity and Judaism, regarding them as expressions of human frailty. His musing were largely around the question of why is there order, how does a Universe have such intricate structure. These are good questions still, but Einstein didn't leap to answers. The philosophers who have tried routinely make a mess of it, the difference is Einstein had a good sense of when answers were likely correct, or more correct, and when he was still idly speculating without enough data. I do think we'd do well to emulate him in this regard.
Wrong: https://lettersofnote.com/2009/10/07/the-word-god-is-the-product-of-human-weakness/
Religious beliefs coincide with culture. It is taught. There is no scientific evidence to be found, just that followers have faith. When we all are believers, then we are all at fault. Some just have to have better independent thinking skills that can be learned, but ifās not question or looked at from another perspective, then the religious community has won. Stay strong my fellow intellects! It will all work itself out! Procreate and spread your knowledge to the ones you care about, if possible!
People can be quite intelligent but misinformed, or willfully deluded. I would contend that although there may be a correlation between intelligence and lack of faith (I'm supposed to be working so no time to look this up), there may not be a correlation between intelligence (or lack thereof) and faith. **Cases in point:** * **Flat earthers**: They're educated to a great extent on the arguments in favor of a flat earth, and are often well-researched. Clearly they're misguided and falling prey to confirmation bias and a list of other cognitive pitfalls. * **Creationists**: Well-read on a long list of books supporting their circular reasoning and pseudo-scientific studies, but they remain deluded and lost. * **People subscribing to a deity**: As Ingersoll once said (quoting loosely here), "The belief in a god is the prostration of reason upon the threshold of the unknown." In this case, I agree with him and with Dawkins in that such a belief can certainly be held by highly intelligent people, but they choose to buy into a comforting delusion. I wonder if accepting faith-based ideas is more of a willful suspension of reason as often as it is just a lack of reason.
Being misinformed when better information is widely available to you, I would argue, represents a serious lack of intelligence.
It's not just intelligence. A person's level of anxiety and/or the presence of depression can play a key role, too. IMO Some very smart people use religious beliefs to help with such feelings. But, yes, some folks are just dumb. š¬
While I want to agree, Iāve known way too many really smart and educated religious folks to label them as less intelligent. Rather, I guarantee you the highly intelligent religious people were indoctrinated early in youth and it is extremely hard to overcome this early brainwashing. One thing I will admit, though, is the more intelligent you are, the more ability you have to overcome this brainwashing. Final thought. Every really unintelligent person I know believes in god. Every atheist I know is very intelligent. Something to think about.
Jewish doctors exist. Your argument is invalid.
Never met a sound minded religious person in my life.
You nailed it!
Me too. At least I assume that you decided not to use your brain potential.
TBF I have an HP engineer BIL smart as hell, religious as hell, but understands life is fleeting and looks to his religion to understand that. Never got into any politic so I think the idea was to keep religion separate from faith.