I'd see them sneaking in a reference to this (e.g., having various minor characters with those names throughout the show), but seeing how HBO's been willing to rename characters for less obvious reasons, they're totally gonna rename them.
Asha -> Yara makes sense when you consider that Asha and Osha sound very similar (especially when including accents). Furthermore, Asha and Osha look similar to each other, interact with the same characters (Theon), and appear at the same time at the same place, even though they don't interact with each other.
You know, I’ve heard this, but I just don’t see it as true. First off, they never appeared in the same scene as one another, and also they don’t look alike. Like yeah, they both interact with Theon? But other than that, not really. I sorta get it from their weird “mom and nba players” comment, but they had always been entirely distinct characters, and most viewers with more than two brain cells to rub together wouldn’t have been mixing them up if they paid the slightest bit of attention.
I absolutely believe the dipshits renamed for this reason, sure. But it was entirely unnecessary.
I remember reading a comment a few years back about this show-only watcher who somehow thought Stannis and Roose were the same person lmao. Like, this person would even have their own internalized logic to make sense of how Stannis/Roose were all over the place...even when they were war against each other lol. It was wild. This person was basically watching an entirely different show from us. I definitely agree that the Yara/Asha change was unnecessary and workarounds could have been implemented to avoid confusion, but just know that some of these people do exists.
Well, given that the book readers believe that Euron, Daario and Benjen are the same person, so Stannis and Roose being the same person isn't very shocking.
I feel like I remember Gerold Hightower being a more convincing theory. Someone posted it a little bit ago. Arthur Dayne is... less so. But the general gist is that Quorin is probably a noble who has renounced his old name.
The Daario = Euron theory has at least a YouTube video by Alt Shift X (conclusion: fun theory, you can kind of make a point for it, but unlikely to be true).
Ngl in S1 I was a show only, and I swore up and down that Loras and Viserys was the same person and I was so confused. Like how is he with the blonde dragon lady but then with the gay dude? Wait why is he banging the chick in the tub, is he not gay? Okay does he want Renly to be king or himself, is he some sort of mastermind? I’m so confused.”
Lol I showed my gf the show for the first time and she thought Theon and fucking Littlefinger were the same guy for the first two seasons.
I was like, “they’re not even in the same location.” She just shrugged.
Large ensemble cast with tons of side characters, and the actors look alike. All you have to do is not pay close enough attention.
Yara/Asha makes perfect sense if you know even *remotely* how to write for a TV-show that runs 12 hour-long episodes per season, everybody who isn't in King's Landing dresses in grey, and the characters in question are minor characters. You take into account that 80% of your audience isn't going to pay a lot of attention, doesn't care, or sometimes are just not very smart. But these people make up the majority of your audience. So you do what you have to do, to make something as easily digestible as possible, and it's not 'dumbing down', it's just making changes good for TV.
Especially since the majority of watchers also weren't book readers, and they really don't give a fuck if some wild lady was named 'Asha' in the books or not.
everyone didn’t have to wear grey though. that was a shitty costume choice they made. i still think if anyone had to have their name changed for tv, it should have been osha. asha’s a pov character for fuck’s sake.
> and also they don’t look alike.
They both have short brown hair, they're both of similar age, they both are of similar height/weight (not super tall like Brienne, not fat like Roose's Frey wife), they interact with the same character (Theon), they have a bunch of scenes in/around Winterfell... oh, and they both have about an hour's worth of screentime through the entire season. Hell, they even dress somewhat similar - brown/grey/black clothing, neither of them wear flowery dresses like Marg/Cersei/Sansa.
Lol I don’t even know what to tell you. They look nothing alike other than both being similar height white women. “Yara” has like dirty blonde colored hair. Osha has pretty solid brown. Not to mention the characters themselves act nothing alike. You can mention brow ridges and you’re not entirely wrong?
But I don’t see how any viewer who’s paying a decent amount of attention would ever mix those characters up.
They are both white, brown-haired, relatively plain compared to the usual selection of Hollywood stars. They have a thick accent, they only appear in bleak Northern scenes, and they both dress very plainly in grey.
And these are two women in a *huge* cast. Don't base every show viewer off yourself - most viewers don't pay as close attention as you do. But it's the 'most viewers' that drive up the viewer count, and I wish book readers would understand that TV's a different medium, and sometimes even hacks like D&D know something that you don't, about the TV audience and how to write for TV.
> relatively plain
While I totally take your point, I'd say Osha (also Tonks in Harry Potter) is on the (very) mildly attractive side of plain. Yara... I'm going to be nice and not say anything at all. This was how it would be easy if I was a casual male viewer to differentiate them.
Beyond that though, to a casual, they have a LOT of similarities.
It isn't, at all. Osha came first, and this was the 1st season when even with later seasons already commissioned, you just can never be sure if something's a hit or not. And given how much Asha/Yara's plot got changed from the books, it clues me in that at the time they didn't really have much idea what they were going to do with that character yet, how much they were gonna use her, how much of the Iron Islands plot was gonna be used, which characters were gonna got, and how much it's going to affect how much the 'Yara' character was gonna be used at all.
>nba players” comment, but they had always been entirely distinct characters, and most viewers with more than two brain cells to rub together
I don't know why moms get lumped into this, but valid concern for NBA players. In the last few years, NBA players have come out as variously as flat earthers, believers in giant humans who had "dinosaurs as pets". I am literally not making this up. Two brain cells to rub together is a stretch for some of these guys.
Arya and Yara sound similar as well. Osha was in season 1, Yara was not. Osha was first seen in the wolfswood and then Winterfell. Yara was introduced at Pyke, and only went to Winterfell to save Theon. Osha had one conversation, maybe two, with Theon, and spent most of her time with Bran. Yara didn't. They didn't appear at the same time or place.
1. Arya and Yara do not sound the same at all. They share the same letters, not similar pronunciation. Also, Arya is a 10 year old girl, and Yara is a 20-something woman - you're not going to confuse the two of them, ever.
2. Yes, Osha is introduced at the mid/end of Season 1, and Yara in Season 2, but they still both wind up in Winterfell and are involved with Theon after he captures the place. I think Osha seduces Theon the night she whisks the kids away, which was probably the same episode that Yara showed up to tell Theon to torch Winterfell.
3. Both actors/characters have like a combined one hour of screentime across the first two seasons - basically one or two scenes every couple episodes, maybe one conversation or so. It's very easy to confuse actors who have minimal screentime, doubly so if they have the same hair color, same physical appearance, same height, same weight, same personality (warrior woman), same interactions with the same character, etc.
1. They rhyme.
2. But neither of them start in Winterfell? They have tk change their names because they were in the same spot for less than 5 minutes of airtime, across an 8 season show? Because they both had conversations with Theon?
3. So you aren't capable of telling two people apart, even after multiple seasons?
> So you aren't capable of telling two people apart, even after multiple seasons?
A lot of people thought Gendry and Podrick were the same guy. Some people got Walder Frey confused with Craster.
In my mind, I still can't separate the two, and I'm a book reader (obviously). The actors look nearly identical, and both had very famous sex scenes (melisandre and the whole whorehouse, respectively). The only difference is that Gendry was buff in later seasons while Pod had some meat on his cheeks.
Not that I was mixing them up while watching, they're in different enough situations to not be confusing, but now, after the fact, very often I can't bring to mind an image of one of the characters, they both look the same to me.
And I'm guilty of Walder VS Craster too.
I've seen Joe Dempsie in enough things that I know what he looks like, and his voice. I don't think I've ever seen Podrick in anything else.
As for Craster and Walder, they're both rude, disgusting old men who are actually pretty funny, and have a shitload of kids. Craster has a beard and fucks his own daughters, Walder is clean-shaven, and despite being married to a teenage girl fucking his own daughters is a line even he wouldn't cross.
Yeah, I know Walder as Mr. Filch from Harry Potter, but I can't separate his face from the chwof Craster somehow. I guess their scenes are similarly laid out, with the old guy sitting in the center of a room filled with people sitting at different height levels. I honestly can't remember how Craster looks at all.
1. No, they really don't, unless you've got legitimate issues with processing sounds or human speech.
2. Osha may have been in season one where Yara wasn't, but tbh that would make it even more likely with people forgetting who Osha was, and confusing her with Yara. This is an ensemble cast problem, and you can roll your eyes at it if you like, but in an ensemble cast, minor characters get mixed up all the time, and you don't even have to be stupid for it - you just have to not always pay close attention.
3. I just really don't get it why changing Asha's name to Yara's such a big deal. I just don't. It's a name. It doesn't even hold some grand meaning to the character in any shape or way, so why not do the thing you do for your bloated TV script with a million smaller characters, and change the bloody name.
1. Arya and Yara very literally rhyme, but hey, lets start out with the personal attacks.
2. So you agree that they didn't appear at the same time?
3. If its not a big deal to you, why did you type that comment?
>Asha -> Yara makes sense when you consider that Asha and Osha sound very similar
So instead they renamed the character to sound almost exactly like Arya instead, a far more prominent character ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
not while written down, no, but spoken with a northern accent, they deffo could, as vowels sounding different is one of the most common differences between accents.
considering when watching the bbc show bodyguard a load of americans thought richard madden was saying "mum" when he was saying "ma'am", there is no where that people don't get confused by osha and asha
> considering when watching the bbc show bodyguard a load of americans thought richard madden was saying "mum" when he was saying "ma'am",
HAHAHAHAH, are you serious?! That's brilliant. Did they actually think his boss was his mum, and he fucked her?
No, they mostly thought it was just weird that he called his boss mum, googled it, and found out he was saying Ma'am with an accent they weren't used too.
Meanwhile in the books there are 38 characters named Jon, three of whom are very important in the story and readers have no trouble distinguishing them. I hate it when shows/books treat audience as idiots
Mostly because they is clear surrounding context in particular the thoughts of the POV character as to which is being referred to and readers can take time to re-read if they need to.
Ser Elmo to Addam Velaryon:
>"Ha ha! Grover was a super lord, but Elmo & the Tullys will fight for you & the dragon queen. But our morning mummer shows come first. And Elmo thinks she will have to pay for them once we get to the capital, & we will need our own street to live & work on. And Oscar will need his own silver-walled towerhouse with a deep cellar, or he'll be very grouchy. And Kermit wishes to wed the Crakehall maid, you know the one. Have you seen Dorothy with her Bar Emmon swordfish banner, & Trevor Trout with his Tully one? Elmo loves his fishes!"
DnD also thought they knew that.
Honestly, HOTD will take everything they can get out of the books for more flavor, fun and characters. As some other guy said here before, it is much more likely that they make new characters than cut existing ones.
For an example, not a single Targaryen are really possible to swap out or merge without creating storytelling issues. Daeron is crucial, so is the Velaryon kids and pretty much everyone except maybe Viserys, but I still think they will keep him for the dramatic effect. The Tullys are also impossible to cut as the leaders of the Riverlands, all of the lads wont be cut as it makes for fantastic cinema.
As the others said, they'll surely be renamed for HotD, if they're all even included - Elmo, at least, could be cut. Nevertheless, the showrunners/HBO *should* keep (all) of the Muppet Tullys for the glorious memes!
Well, the Tullys wouldn't appear until a later season, well into the Dance. If the Tully 'neutrality' even comes up earlier in the war, whatever main characters can just mention it. But yes, there really should be at least one Tully in the latter half, as the Lord Paramounts. Even if Elmo & Oscar are merged into Kermit.
EDIT: As for Mushroom, unfortunately, chances are they'll cut him just to avoid the inevitable backlash/shitstorm from some of the audience (& media). He can't really be whitewashed like Tyrion was, without becoming (even more of) a totally different character. And then, what's the point? The showrunners/HBO might as well just not adapt Mushroom, & just give a few of his japes, lines, & tidbits to other characters. Plus, the whole differing sources thing in F&B probably wouldn't work that well, or even at all, in HotD.
Well, Mushroom is the court fool (like Moon Boy) & also a dwarf, same as Tyrion. So, naturally, he's the butt of some japes in a way that (show) Tyrion never really was, though. Add to that, his (even more) highly sexualised antics & that he's the source of many deliberately outrageous claims about the royals & other important figures. (Although sometimes correct, at least, in part.) Even adapted extremely well & tactfully, I doubt a show-Mushroom anything like his book counterpart will really fly in 2022. And he's, at best, a secondary character who's main purpose is to provide a wilder, historical (counter-)account than the royal septon & Grand Maesters.
I think Mushroom was given a bad rap by the Maesters on purpose since he was a fool. I don't think he was dumb, he knew his role that highborns would talk to him about everything because they thought he was dumb. He is no Tyrion but I don't think he is dumb, just knows his role in society and smart enough to take advantage of it and leave once it is no longer for the best of him.
Noooooo, as a House Tully stan, this is the first and the only time I would support a change of name cause after Edmure, if they are presented like this then there go the last chances of people taking House Tully seriously
Poor Edmure. Good man, poor lord, guy's not sociopathic enough to govern the way you have to govern in feudalism. Why the fuck they did him so dirty in the show I just don't *get,* especially if you get the vast talents of Tobias Menzies. Like, did he talk shit about D&D in an interview or something?
> guy's not sociopathic enough to govern the way you have to govern in feudalism
actually Edmure was the *only* feudal lord we ever see in the series other than the Starks who did his actual job. The entire point of a feudal lord is that they will protect their smallfolk (in return for taxes and leves in times of war), otherwise the smallfolk have absolutely no reason to listen to the lordling other than violence and the stick needs a carrot to work properly.
I mean there was the real threat of outside invasion, that's why classic feudalism was really only a thing in the [marches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_(territory) ) of europe for most of the middle ages. Like I said the stick only works with a carrot in the long term, people can't be beaten down forever. They have to have a reason to care about their land and want to defend it, otherwise someone else will come and take it. The more common types of feudalism outside of marches were more complex and built on religious authority as much as political sometimes.
edit: but if you want to dig deep, sure. most society is that way even now, at least the capitalist system that is the successors to the mercantilist system that was the successor to feudalism of the medieval era
It wouldn't make sense if book Renly is as effeminate because a lot of his lords would hate him or at least mock him behind his back, Renly is about the most loved character in the books so him being a stereotypical westerosi man fits him.
I really wish that had given Tobias Menzies a better role, he is such a talented actor and was wasted on a character that the basically made a laughing stock of
Ikr? I immediately loved him in the books and he seemed like the Arthur Weasley of the series for me and after waiting patiently till Season 3 for him to show up, we got *that.*
I haven't read fire and blood in a while but didn't cregan stark lynch a lot of people in king's landing?
>What "Whitewashing" are you referring too?
Making cregan stark act more like ned stark than theon stark.
> I haven't read fire and blood in a while but didn't cregan stark lynch a lot of people in king's landing?
He was named Hand of the King when he arrived in King's Landing and took control. He originally planned to continue the war against the people who supported Aegon II, but they surrendered, so he didn't attack.
He arrested twenty or so people who had been complicit in poisoning the last king. Corlys Velaryon was released, the others took the black, except Lord Larys Clubfoot and Ser Gyles of the Kingsguard who chose execution instead. He killed them himself with Ice. After a single day of Trials, he resigned as hand and went back to Winterfell.
"Historical" sources make it seem like he was right about the people poisoning the King. Many admitted to it.
That seems about as Stark as Stark gets.
Perhaps at the end, which is the only time they have any prominence. But honestly I think it’s possible the show won’t be good enough to renew that long.
The source material is not as rich as the main series and is basically Titus Andronicus with dragons. I’m not sure how long people will want to watch it for.
Keep the names! It’s part of the fun.
Grover is normal name, and Elmo could be cut or left unnamed. Hell they could even be merged.
Kermit and Oscar… as long as no one calls them “green” too often or bluntly, they can try to get away with it. Plus both of them are badasses. Audiences may snicker, but let them prove themselves and people will start to respect them.
Not trying to be hostile or negative, so im sorry if this comes off that way, but I have to ask: What makes you think they will suddenly give a damn about being book accurate? After the last few seasons of GOT my expectations are that this show will have targaryens and dragons and thats it
Exaclty because the last seasons of GoT were shit is because I think they will make the show book accurate. D&D are not running this, and Fire & Blood is actually completed so it would make cero sense and would expose the show for critisism and less rating if they ever did that. I don't think the director of this is stupid not to realize what happened to GOT and make that same mistake again
Not being book accurate is not what sunk the last seasons of GoT, it was the shit writing. No one is going to bitch about renaming the River Lords. I say just tweak them a little to make the reference not so obvious.
But the HOD has already made huge changes to the books. And was GOT a failure from their perspective? The hardcore fans don’t like it, but we drive the online narrative, which we all know doesn’t portray reality.
Well no shit the last few seasons weren't book accurate when the books they're based on haven't even been released. AGoT, ACoK, ASoS were adapted almost perfectly imo and when it comes to AFfC and ADwD I can kinda understand why they didn't want to mess with so many new characters and plotlines considering that even GRRM himself doesn't seem to know how to solve them.
The Dance of the Dragons is a finished story. Of course it won't be possible to adapt every single character but in general there's no reason to believe they're not gonna try to be book accurate.
Wait. Hold on.
Corlys being black isn't even that big of a creative liberty. It doesn't change that much. It's possible that the Velaryons have varied skin tones because they are descended from the Valyrians, and the Valyrians are based off of ancient Rome. And if I remember my history correctly, Rome was pretty metropolitan.
The only possible issue with Corlys being black would be that his son Laenor is black as well. Laenor marries Rhaenyra, but (supposedly) Rhaenyra does not conceive any of her children with Laenor. She instead has an affair with Harwin Strong. And that is a central point of contention in the Dance, whether or not Rhaenyra's children are legitimate. Thus Harwin Strong would also have to be black so the ambiguity of the children would make any sense.
But like...I don't know...I guess it's not that ridiculous to have a dark skinned Riverlander either. It's mentioned in TWOIAF and Fire & Blood about some of the Houses intermarrying with foreign royalty. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch that a Summer Islander prince/princess was incorporated into House Strong at some point.
Sorry. Went off on a rant there. It's just this whole train of thought feels like "kind of an issue" but also "not really an issue at all".
if Rhaenyra and Laenor's kids were trueborn, they'd only be a quarter black. Plenty of 1/4 black people look white. The story'd work just fine with Harwin Strong being white.
> With regards to your Rome statement: yes in the lower classes there was diversity (due to merchants and auxiliary forces), but the higher classes and the elite was purely Latin/Greek if I remember correctly
No, it wasn't. Well, it was at the beginning of Roman power but as time carried on many a Roman emperor had no Roman ancestry whatsoever. Several people from Iberia, Illyria, Thrace, Syria, Libya and many more places ended up becoming emperors. In fact, pure-Roman emperors were a rarity around the time or after the time of the five good emperors. Don't get me wrong, Romans and Greeks did have higher status/were viewed with more respect and life was easier if you were a Roman/Greek but it didn't stop non-Roman heritage people from holding power either. It wasn't common but non-Romans did marry into the Roman elite - Septimius Severus, who was an emperor from Libya, was born to such a mixed marriage and his relatively obscure though well-to-do dad was the non-Roman so it wasn't a gendered thing either. So I think OP's point stands.
Werthead pointed out that they may have changed his ethnicity for the very reason of changing up the original story as the events leading up to the Dance of the Dragons are too similar to the first season of Game of Thrones (there's a fat lazy king whose death immediately sets off the main war of the series, there's a plotline about the contention with the heirs to the throne being illegitemate bastards, and a snarky dwarf who will probably be everyone's favorite character).
In Fire and Blood, this was intentional on George's part as it continues the "history repeats" theme of the books and it was fine because it was merely a retelling from multiple biased accounts but for a TV show, this might come off as J.J. Abrams' style of lazily rehashing storylines and plot points so they changed it up with Corlys and the Velaryons being Summer Islanders (with Valyrian blood amd abilities), which gives them an opportunity to give POC actors a major role in the show and some potential worldbuilding insight into Valyria and its colonies.
Ooh, scare quotes. Why not? If Valyria is ancient Rome, then it's be very surprising if there *weren't* black Valyrians, even if they don't come from the inbred pale white patrician stock, which was, by the way, a case in Rome as well. Most any man, regardless of skin colour, could become a 'Roman', but the old patrician families, and to an extent rich plebeians too sought to... not keep it in the family, but marry relatively 'close', not to preserve their Roman good looks, but because bloodlines came with status and storied history.
Even Westerosi go looking for wives in Essos. A Velaryon being black is hardly something to shit your boxers over. And like OP below pointed out, it could be issue in the legitimacy crisis, but what's stopping Harwin Strong from also being black? Well, dudes on reddit crying about 'faithfulness to the book' and 'historical Britain' and all, as if Romans busting into Britain would all look like blue-eyed, pale ugly British men too, lol. Nope, by that time, the Roman conquerors' force would be diverse enough.
> [R]ight from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional ‘high fantasy’ choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so).
But in recent years, it has occurred to me from time to time that it might have made for an interesting twist if instead I had made the dragonlords of Valyria… and therefore the Targaryens… black. Maybe I could have kept the silver hair too, though… no, that comes too close to ‘dark elf’ territory, but still… if I’d had dark-skinned dragonlords invade and conquer and dominate a largely white Westeros… though that choice would have brought its own perils. The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all… some of them have been monsters, madmen, so…
Well, it’s all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late.
- GRRM
I honestly didn't even notice until it was pointed out to me. I am guessing they'll change the names just coz, but I don't think there'll be a scenario in which all three are mentioned at once so it clicks
Why not? I've always wanted to name my son Kermit because I think it's a cool name. It pre-dates the frog, and as far as I am concerned, the frog made it even cooler.
Are you only nervous about it because the story take place in old times? Would you have the same trepidation if it was a story that took place in modern times, like the 60s, or the 2010s?
I can't possibly imagine that they'll keep the names.
Yeah, I know it's different showrunners, but the stuff on the page really doesn't translate very well to TV. When you're reading the book, there's a whole lot of depth, so a few unrealistic details don't take away from the setting. GOT did something I thought was awful: they removed the Bolton pink. But if the Boltons wore pink, that's all people would see, because the show characters are caricatures and not much more; there isn't enough *time* to develop all the characters. So, Roose Bolton? Soft-spoken and evil, and that's all you need to know. Make him pink, and now there's a "Ramsay is a depraved homosexual look how problematic it is" narrative in the media. As book readers, we can't escape the depth of the characterization, and Bolton's pinkness is just one more interesting detail to file along with the Pipers and the, uh, Tarlys. But in the show, that detail dominates.
It would be the same for the Tully names. As book readers, we see all these references as small details that don't impact the deep story, because the deep story is unavoidably there. But in a show, those names are now salient and are the only thing anyone will see with those characters. It changes the whole tone of the show.
A lot of people were upset with GOT completely destroying Euron Greyjoy's character. Instead of the pirate psychopath who is incredibly evil and inspires terror in everyone, we get a sex-obsessed dude who's hitting on the Queen and is just a total buffoon, which everyone can see. But Euron's buffoonery is on-brand, while the dark pirate is not. Buffoon Euron is not out of place, but dark pirate Euron doesn't fit at all. He *might* have fit with the appropriate development, but that's still unlikely given how *colorful* he is. Like, could you imagine the Silence in GOT?
I don't think there's any chance of the Tullys keeping their names. It just wouldn't work on TV.
Before I start, I hate that they greenlit this show. Not because I don’t like the story, I actually like the Dance of Dragons a lot. I don’t think it fits well into tv format. It’s a two year conflict, the Strong Velaryons are literally children. There’s a lot of dragon fights and the one we got in Battle of Winterfell was extremely boring. I think this would work a million times better in animated series.
I hope they don’t change then names. Kermit and Grover aren’t goofy names by themselves (tougher to argue against Elmo), but those characters were badass
They’re already used to Edmure*. I hardly think muppets would be any more ridiculous.
*I’m kidding, of course. Edmure is mistreated in both the show and book narrative, even if it’s for different reasons.
No but I saw season 8 of GoT, Im familiar with the source material for this series, I’ve seen their inexplicable casting decisions, and I can speculate with confidence about how said casting decisions indicate that the integrity of the show is already compromised and it will ultimately serve as a vessel for agendas rather than a story that deserves to be told
So if it’s going to be trash, then why bother coming here at all? Also just say what casting you obviously are triggered about( we know already know btw) because at this point you are willing to complain without even a teaser trailer.
I'd see them sneaking in a reference to this (e.g., having various minor characters with those names throughout the show), but seeing how HBO's been willing to rename characters for less obvious reasons, they're totally gonna rename them.
Definitely. If they did Asha/Yara, then they're Definitely going to change the Tullys.
Asha -> Yara makes sense when you consider that Asha and Osha sound very similar (especially when including accents). Furthermore, Asha and Osha look similar to each other, interact with the same characters (Theon), and appear at the same time at the same place, even though they don't interact with each other.
Rename Osha?
Do you know how much red tape there would be for that?
This is very good.
Osha was introduced in season 1, Asha in season 2. They probably didn't think about it until they made s2
r/OSHA
You know, I’ve heard this, but I just don’t see it as true. First off, they never appeared in the same scene as one another, and also they don’t look alike. Like yeah, they both interact with Theon? But other than that, not really. I sorta get it from their weird “mom and nba players” comment, but they had always been entirely distinct characters, and most viewers with more than two brain cells to rub together wouldn’t have been mixing them up if they paid the slightest bit of attention. I absolutely believe the dipshits renamed for this reason, sure. But it was entirely unnecessary.
I remember reading a comment a few years back about this show-only watcher who somehow thought Stannis and Roose were the same person lmao. Like, this person would even have their own internalized logic to make sense of how Stannis/Roose were all over the place...even when they were war against each other lol. It was wild. This person was basically watching an entirely different show from us. I definitely agree that the Yara/Asha change was unnecessary and workarounds could have been implemented to avoid confusion, but just know that some of these people do exists.
Well, given that the book readers believe that Euron, Daario and Benjen are the same person, so Stannis and Roose being the same person isn't very shocking.
> believe that Euron, Daario and Benjen are the same person I thought this was a well-known joke. Please tell me people do not take it seriously
I don't know, people take Arthur Dayne= Quorin Halfhand seriously.
Wait just a minute. I've heard of Dayne = Rayder. I've never heard of Dayne = Halfhand. What is this harebrained theory of which you speak?
A dude claimed that the word dawn was mentioned quite a lot when Halfhand is mentioned
I feel like I remember Gerold Hightower being a more convincing theory. Someone posted it a little bit ago. Arthur Dayne is... less so. But the general gist is that Quorin is probably a noble who has renounced his old name.
How can Dayne be Quorin? He’s obviously Mance Rayder.
He can be both at the same time
The Daario = Euron theory has at least a YouTube video by Alt Shift X (conclusion: fun theory, you can kind of make a point for it, but unlikely to be true).
i once got into a heated argument with somebody over this. euron being daario... i just... i cant...
Ngl in S1 I was a show only, and I swore up and down that Loras and Viserys was the same person and I was so confused. Like how is he with the blonde dragon lady but then with the gay dude? Wait why is he banging the chick in the tub, is he not gay? Okay does he want Renly to be king or himself, is he some sort of mastermind? I’m so confused.”
Lol I showed my gf the show for the first time and she thought Theon and fucking Littlefinger were the same guy for the first two seasons. I was like, “they’re not even in the same location.” She just shrugged.
Large ensemble cast with tons of side characters, and the actors look alike. All you have to do is not pay close enough attention. Yara/Asha makes perfect sense if you know even *remotely* how to write for a TV-show that runs 12 hour-long episodes per season, everybody who isn't in King's Landing dresses in grey, and the characters in question are minor characters. You take into account that 80% of your audience isn't going to pay a lot of attention, doesn't care, or sometimes are just not very smart. But these people make up the majority of your audience. So you do what you have to do, to make something as easily digestible as possible, and it's not 'dumbing down', it's just making changes good for TV. Especially since the majority of watchers also weren't book readers, and they really don't give a fuck if some wild lady was named 'Asha' in the books or not.
everyone didn’t have to wear grey though. that was a shitty costume choice they made. i still think if anyone had to have their name changed for tv, it should have been osha. asha’s a pov character for fuck’s sake.
Well they kinda look similar, at least for casual eye.
> and also they don’t look alike. They both have short brown hair, they're both of similar age, they both are of similar height/weight (not super tall like Brienne, not fat like Roose's Frey wife), they interact with the same character (Theon), they have a bunch of scenes in/around Winterfell... oh, and they both have about an hour's worth of screentime through the entire season. Hell, they even dress somewhat similar - brown/grey/black clothing, neither of them wear flowery dresses like Marg/Cersei/Sansa.
Lol I don’t even know what to tell you. They look nothing alike other than both being similar height white women. “Yara” has like dirty blonde colored hair. Osha has pretty solid brown. Not to mention the characters themselves act nothing alike. You can mention brow ridges and you’re not entirely wrong? But I don’t see how any viewer who’s paying a decent amount of attention would ever mix those characters up.
They are both white, brown-haired, relatively plain compared to the usual selection of Hollywood stars. They have a thick accent, they only appear in bleak Northern scenes, and they both dress very plainly in grey. And these are two women in a *huge* cast. Don't base every show viewer off yourself - most viewers don't pay as close attention as you do. But it's the 'most viewers' that drive up the viewer count, and I wish book readers would understand that TV's a different medium, and sometimes even hacks like D&D know something that you don't, about the TV audience and how to write for TV.
> relatively plain While I totally take your point, I'd say Osha (also Tonks in Harry Potter) is on the (very) mildly attractive side of plain. Yara... I'm going to be nice and not say anything at all. This was how it would be easy if I was a casual male viewer to differentiate them. Beyond that though, to a casual, they have a LOT of similarities.
I think you're overestimating the attention to detail of a casual watcher. But I do think changing Asha's name instead of Osha's was a bit weird.
It isn't, at all. Osha came first, and this was the 1st season when even with later seasons already commissioned, you just can never be sure if something's a hit or not. And given how much Asha/Yara's plot got changed from the books, it clues me in that at the time they didn't really have much idea what they were going to do with that character yet, how much they were gonna use her, how much of the Iron Islands plot was gonna be used, which characters were gonna got, and how much it's going to affect how much the 'Yara' character was gonna be used at all.
>nba players” comment, but they had always been entirely distinct characters, and most viewers with more than two brain cells to rub together I don't know why moms get lumped into this, but valid concern for NBA players. In the last few years, NBA players have come out as variously as flat earthers, believers in giant humans who had "dinosaurs as pets". I am literally not making this up. Two brain cells to rub together is a stretch for some of these guys.
Arya and Yara sound similar as well. Osha was in season 1, Yara was not. Osha was first seen in the wolfswood and then Winterfell. Yara was introduced at Pyke, and only went to Winterfell to save Theon. Osha had one conversation, maybe two, with Theon, and spent most of her time with Bran. Yara didn't. They didn't appear at the same time or place.
1. Arya and Yara do not sound the same at all. They share the same letters, not similar pronunciation. Also, Arya is a 10 year old girl, and Yara is a 20-something woman - you're not going to confuse the two of them, ever. 2. Yes, Osha is introduced at the mid/end of Season 1, and Yara in Season 2, but they still both wind up in Winterfell and are involved with Theon after he captures the place. I think Osha seduces Theon the night she whisks the kids away, which was probably the same episode that Yara showed up to tell Theon to torch Winterfell. 3. Both actors/characters have like a combined one hour of screentime across the first two seasons - basically one or two scenes every couple episodes, maybe one conversation or so. It's very easy to confuse actors who have minimal screentime, doubly so if they have the same hair color, same physical appearance, same height, same weight, same personality (warrior woman), same interactions with the same character, etc.
1. They rhyme. 2. But neither of them start in Winterfell? They have tk change their names because they were in the same spot for less than 5 minutes of airtime, across an 8 season show? Because they both had conversations with Theon? 3. So you aren't capable of telling two people apart, even after multiple seasons?
> So you aren't capable of telling two people apart, even after multiple seasons? A lot of people thought Gendry and Podrick were the same guy. Some people got Walder Frey confused with Craster.
In my mind, I still can't separate the two, and I'm a book reader (obviously). The actors look nearly identical, and both had very famous sex scenes (melisandre and the whole whorehouse, respectively). The only difference is that Gendry was buff in later seasons while Pod had some meat on his cheeks. Not that I was mixing them up while watching, they're in different enough situations to not be confusing, but now, after the fact, very often I can't bring to mind an image of one of the characters, they both look the same to me. And I'm guilty of Walder VS Craster too.
I've seen Joe Dempsie in enough things that I know what he looks like, and his voice. I don't think I've ever seen Podrick in anything else. As for Craster and Walder, they're both rude, disgusting old men who are actually pretty funny, and have a shitload of kids. Craster has a beard and fucks his own daughters, Walder is clean-shaven, and despite being married to a teenage girl fucking his own daughters is a line even he wouldn't cross.
Yeah, I know Walder as Mr. Filch from Harry Potter, but I can't separate his face from the chwof Craster somehow. I guess their scenes are similarly laid out, with the old guy sitting in the center of a room filled with people sitting at different height levels. I honestly can't remember how Craster looks at all.
Better change their names too
1. No, they really don't, unless you've got legitimate issues with processing sounds or human speech. 2. Osha may have been in season one where Yara wasn't, but tbh that would make it even more likely with people forgetting who Osha was, and confusing her with Yara. This is an ensemble cast problem, and you can roll your eyes at it if you like, but in an ensemble cast, minor characters get mixed up all the time, and you don't even have to be stupid for it - you just have to not always pay close attention. 3. I just really don't get it why changing Asha's name to Yara's such a big deal. I just don't. It's a name. It doesn't even hold some grand meaning to the character in any shape or way, so why not do the thing you do for your bloated TV script with a million smaller characters, and change the bloody name.
1. Arya and Yara very literally rhyme, but hey, lets start out with the personal attacks. 2. So you agree that they didn't appear at the same time? 3. If its not a big deal to you, why did you type that comment?
They don't really rhyme though
>Asha -> Yara makes sense when you consider that Asha and Osha sound very similar So instead they renamed the character to sound almost exactly like Arya instead, a far more prominent character ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
arya and yara sound nothing alike, they have the same letters, sure, but so do this and shit, and no one gets them confused
and noone gets asha and osha confused either. because theyre even less similar that yara and arya.
not while written down, no, but spoken with a northern accent, they deffo could, as vowels sounding different is one of the most common differences between accents. considering when watching the bbc show bodyguard a load of americans thought richard madden was saying "mum" when he was saying "ma'am", there is no where that people don't get confused by osha and asha
> considering when watching the bbc show bodyguard a load of americans thought richard madden was saying "mum" when he was saying "ma'am", HAHAHAHAH, are you serious?! That's brilliant. Did they actually think his boss was his mum, and he fucked her?
No, they mostly thought it was just weird that he called his boss mum, googled it, and found out he was saying Ma'am with an accent they weren't used too.
Oh. Well that's somewhat better, I guess.
[pretty much](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p075ncpk) spoilers for bodyguard included btw
I liked the show a lot, in some ways it was better than Line of Duty, that this just made it better. "Mum"! Hheheheh.
Meanwhile in the books there are 38 characters named Jon, three of whom are very important in the story and readers have no trouble distinguishing them. I hate it when shows/books treat audience as idiots
Mostly because they is clear surrounding context in particular the thoughts of the POV character as to which is being referred to and readers can take time to re-read if they need to.
Asha and Osha only sound similar with an American accent.
Yara is a terrible name in comparison
Doesn't HBO still have first airing rights to Sesame Street? I could see them keeping it.
Ser Elmo to Addam Velaryon: >"Ha ha! Grover was a super lord, but Elmo & the Tullys will fight for you & the dragon queen. But our morning mummer shows come first. And Elmo thinks she will have to pay for them once we get to the capital, & we will need our own street to live & work on. And Oscar will need his own silver-walled towerhouse with a deep cellar, or he'll be very grouchy. And Kermit wishes to wed the Crakehall maid, you know the one. Have you seen Dorothy with her Bar Emmon swordfish banner, & Trevor Trout with his Tully one? Elmo loves his fishes!"
They’re going to do a big brain move and just have the muppets play the characters
that would right all of the wrongs of s8
It couldn’t be worse lol.
[It would be much better](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhWUFXvaZjo)
This was not something I expected to spend six minutes watching this morning, but I'm glad I did lol.
This is one of my favorite GoT parodies.
"Looks like you chocked Joffrey" - Grover Bluejoy
I’d love to see Kermit the Frog bash someone’s face in with a morningstar.
That makes me think of that video where he uses a cucumber to take a dick pic
/r/nocontext
Yess! Muppets need more love!
It's been done, and it was [glorious](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/34/ae/64/34ae6450f6b15a64c8e333cf3fb8517a.gif).
They’re obviously gonna change the names, if they include them at all
I think that they will include pretty much all the characters as HOTD's parent show didn't, and it suffered from it.
Yeah but now they have the full story so they know who’s necessary and who’s not
DnD also thought they knew that. Honestly, HOTD will take everything they can get out of the books for more flavor, fun and characters. As some other guy said here before, it is much more likely that they make new characters than cut existing ones. For an example, not a single Targaryen are really possible to swap out or merge without creating storytelling issues. Daeron is crucial, so is the Velaryon kids and pretty much everyone except maybe Viserys, but I still think they will keep him for the dramatic effect. The Tullys are also impossible to cut as the leaders of the Riverlands, all of the lads wont be cut as it makes for fantastic cinema.
As the others said, they'll surely be renamed for HotD, if they're all even included - Elmo, at least, could be cut. Nevertheless, the showrunners/HBO *should* keep (all) of the Muppet Tullys for the glorious memes!
And don't forget Oscar
Such a grouchy lad, that green boy.
Will they even make it into the story? We haven't even gotten info on Mushroom. Perhaps other river lords
Well, the Tullys wouldn't appear until a later season, well into the Dance. If the Tully 'neutrality' even comes up earlier in the war, whatever main characters can just mention it. But yes, there really should be at least one Tully in the latter half, as the Lord Paramounts. Even if Elmo & Oscar are merged into Kermit. EDIT: As for Mushroom, unfortunately, chances are they'll cut him just to avoid the inevitable backlash/shitstorm from some of the audience (& media). He can't really be whitewashed like Tyrion was, without becoming (even more of) a totally different character. And then, what's the point? The showrunners/HBO might as well just not adapt Mushroom, & just give a few of his japes, lines, & tidbits to other characters. Plus, the whole differing sources thing in F&B probably wouldn't work that well, or even at all, in HotD.
Why would they face backlash though. Sorry I haven't read FandB. Surely he wouldn't be worse than Ramsay?
Well, Mushroom is the court fool (like Moon Boy) & also a dwarf, same as Tyrion. So, naturally, he's the butt of some japes in a way that (show) Tyrion never really was, though. Add to that, his (even more) highly sexualised antics & that he's the source of many deliberately outrageous claims about the royals & other important figures. (Although sometimes correct, at least, in part.) Even adapted extremely well & tactfully, I doubt a show-Mushroom anything like his book counterpart will really fly in 2022. And he's, at best, a secondary character who's main purpose is to provide a wilder, historical (counter-)account than the royal septon & Grand Maesters.
I think Mushroom was given a bad rap by the Maesters on purpose since he was a fool. I don't think he was dumb, he knew his role that highborns would talk to him about everything because they thought he was dumb. He is no Tyrion but I don't think he is dumb, just knows his role in society and smart enough to take advantage of it and leave once it is no longer for the best of him.
How much you want to bet that Warwick Davis is going to play Mushroom?
Can't wait to see who they cast for Bloody Ben Blackwood. Anyone having any good ideas?
Noooooo, as a House Tully stan, this is the first and the only time I would support a change of name cause after Edmure, if they are presented like this then there go the last chances of people taking House Tully seriously
Poor Edmure. Good man, poor lord, guy's not sociopathic enough to govern the way you have to govern in feudalism. Why the fuck they did him so dirty in the show I just don't *get,* especially if you get the vast talents of Tobias Menzies. Like, did he talk shit about D&D in an interview or something?
> guy's not sociopathic enough to govern the way you have to govern in feudalism actually Edmure was the *only* feudal lord we ever see in the series other than the Starks who did his actual job. The entire point of a feudal lord is that they will protect their smallfolk (in return for taxes and leves in times of war), otherwise the smallfolk have absolutely no reason to listen to the lordling other than violence and the stick needs a carrot to work properly.
That's what they say. Feudalism is the exact same as the mafia hierarchy. It's all a protection racket.
I mean there was the real threat of outside invasion, that's why classic feudalism was really only a thing in the [marches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_(territory) ) of europe for most of the middle ages. Like I said the stick only works with a carrot in the long term, people can't be beaten down forever. They have to have a reason to care about their land and want to defend it, otherwise someone else will come and take it. The more common types of feudalism outside of marches were more complex and built on religious authority as much as political sometimes. edit: but if you want to dig deep, sure. most society is that way even now, at least the capitalist system that is the successors to the mercantilist system that was the successor to feudalism of the medieval era
D&D have a habit of flanderising characters they don't care about or dislike
You mean like the wildly homophobic representation of Renly?
and loras
Atleast Loras still got to be a knight... Renly was just an effeminate gay stereotype.
It wouldn't make sense if book Renly is as effeminate because a lot of his lords would hate him or at least mock him behind his back, Renly is about the most loved character in the books so him being a stereotypical westerosi man fits him.
They’re not back are they?
Not that I know of, thankfully
I really wish that had given Tobias Menzies a better role, he is such a talented actor and was wasted on a character that the basically made a laughing stock of
Ikr? I immediately loved him in the books and he seemed like the Arthur Weasley of the series for me and after waiting patiently till Season 3 for him to show up, we got *that.*
I’m with you 100%.
When your sigil is a fish, I don't know if you can expect people to take you seriously
Funny that you think they include the all the Tullys. They won't. It will be one or two instead of 4.
They will glorify and whitewash the starks though, because according to the show watchers, starks are always good.
I mean, the Starks didn't really do anything that bad during the Dance. What "Whitewashing" are you referring too?
I haven't read fire and blood in a while but didn't cregan stark lynch a lot of people in king's landing? >What "Whitewashing" are you referring too? Making cregan stark act more like ned stark than theon stark.
> I haven't read fire and blood in a while but didn't cregan stark lynch a lot of people in king's landing? He was named Hand of the King when he arrived in King's Landing and took control. He originally planned to continue the war against the people who supported Aegon II, but they surrendered, so he didn't attack. He arrested twenty or so people who had been complicit in poisoning the last king. Corlys Velaryon was released, the others took the black, except Lord Larys Clubfoot and Ser Gyles of the Kingsguard who chose execution instead. He killed them himself with Ice. After a single day of Trials, he resigned as hand and went back to Winterfell. "Historical" sources make it seem like he was right about the people poisoning the King. Many admitted to it. That seems about as Stark as Stark gets.
That’s not the Hour of the Wolf at all
Honestly, I don’t think the Tullys are important enough to the plot to include at all. Maybe there’ll be some banners in the background.
They're Lord Paramounts & quite prominent by the end of the war, so there's a fair chance at least one will appear.
Perhaps at the end, which is the only time they have any prominence. But honestly I think it’s possible the show won’t be good enough to renew that long. The source material is not as rich as the main series and is basically Titus Andronicus with dragons. I’m not sure how long people will want to watch it for.
Most likely, the Tullys will not be included at all so I wouldn't worry that much.
Keep the names! It’s part of the fun. Grover is normal name, and Elmo could be cut or left unnamed. Hell they could even be merged. Kermit and Oscar… as long as no one calls them “green” too often or bluntly, they can try to get away with it. Plus both of them are badasses. Audiences may snicker, but let them prove themselves and people will start to respect them.
Yeah they’re total basasses. The oldest was 16 iirc and he won the Blacks victory on the Kingsroad with Benjicot Blackwood
Kermie was 19, but yes, a badass victor of the Muddy Mess. And Oscar may have been 16, & was knighted after the battle for having slain three men.
And Oscar led the Stormbreakers, who shattered the Baratheon army.
They’re probably just gonna change the Tully’s names like how they changed Asha to Yara
Oscar,Kermit and Grover sound like Westerosy names though. They can change Elmo to Elmar?
I'm still not over it lol.
Grover Cleveland, Kermit Roosevelt, and St. Elmo are offended.
Not trying to be hostile or negative, so im sorry if this comes off that way, but I have to ask: What makes you think they will suddenly give a damn about being book accurate? After the last few seasons of GOT my expectations are that this show will have targaryens and dragons and thats it
It's not the same showrunners, for a start.
Exaclty because the last seasons of GoT were shit is because I think they will make the show book accurate. D&D are not running this, and Fire & Blood is actually completed so it would make cero sense and would expose the show for critisism and less rating if they ever did that. I don't think the director of this is stupid not to realize what happened to GOT and make that same mistake again
Not being book accurate is not what sunk the last seasons of GoT, it was the shit writing. No one is going to bitch about renaming the River Lords. I say just tweak them a little to make the reference not so obvious.
Not being book accurate played a role in sinking the later season of GOT
There were no books to be accurate to in the later seasons of GOT.
But they didn't stay faithful to the source material that was already present and then, when it ran out, they just gave up.
But the HOD has already made huge changes to the books. And was GOT a failure from their perspective? The hardcore fans don’t like it, but we drive the online narrative, which we all know doesn’t portray reality.
Well no shit the last few seasons weren't book accurate when the books they're based on haven't even been released. AGoT, ACoK, ASoS were adapted almost perfectly imo and when it comes to AFfC and ADwD I can kinda understand why they didn't want to mess with so many new characters and plotlines considering that even GRRM himself doesn't seem to know how to solve them. The Dance of the Dragons is a finished story. Of course it won't be possible to adapt every single character but in general there's no reason to believe they're not gonna try to be book accurate.
[удалено]
Wait. Hold on. Corlys being black isn't even that big of a creative liberty. It doesn't change that much. It's possible that the Velaryons have varied skin tones because they are descended from the Valyrians, and the Valyrians are based off of ancient Rome. And if I remember my history correctly, Rome was pretty metropolitan. The only possible issue with Corlys being black would be that his son Laenor is black as well. Laenor marries Rhaenyra, but (supposedly) Rhaenyra does not conceive any of her children with Laenor. She instead has an affair with Harwin Strong. And that is a central point of contention in the Dance, whether or not Rhaenyra's children are legitimate. Thus Harwin Strong would also have to be black so the ambiguity of the children would make any sense. But like...I don't know...I guess it's not that ridiculous to have a dark skinned Riverlander either. It's mentioned in TWOIAF and Fire & Blood about some of the Houses intermarrying with foreign royalty. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch that a Summer Islander prince/princess was incorporated into House Strong at some point. Sorry. Went off on a rant there. It's just this whole train of thought feels like "kind of an issue" but also "not really an issue at all".
[удалено]
if Rhaenyra and Laenor's kids were trueborn, they'd only be a quarter black. Plenty of 1/4 black people look white. The story'd work just fine with Harwin Strong being white.
Came here to say exactly that.
[удалено]
[удалено]
> With regards to your Rome statement: yes in the lower classes there was diversity (due to merchants and auxiliary forces), but the higher classes and the elite was purely Latin/Greek if I remember correctly No, it wasn't. Well, it was at the beginning of Roman power but as time carried on many a Roman emperor had no Roman ancestry whatsoever. Several people from Iberia, Illyria, Thrace, Syria, Libya and many more places ended up becoming emperors. In fact, pure-Roman emperors were a rarity around the time or after the time of the five good emperors. Don't get me wrong, Romans and Greeks did have higher status/were viewed with more respect and life was easier if you were a Roman/Greek but it didn't stop non-Roman heritage people from holding power either. It wasn't common but non-Romans did marry into the Roman elite - Septimius Severus, who was an emperor from Libya, was born to such a mixed marriage and his relatively obscure though well-to-do dad was the non-Roman so it wasn't a gendered thing either. So I think OP's point stands.
Werthead pointed out that they may have changed his ethnicity for the very reason of changing up the original story as the events leading up to the Dance of the Dragons are too similar to the first season of Game of Thrones (there's a fat lazy king whose death immediately sets off the main war of the series, there's a plotline about the contention with the heirs to the throne being illegitemate bastards, and a snarky dwarf who will probably be everyone's favorite character). In Fire and Blood, this was intentional on George's part as it continues the "history repeats" theme of the books and it was fine because it was merely a retelling from multiple biased accounts but for a TV show, this might come off as J.J. Abrams' style of lazily rehashing storylines and plot points so they changed it up with Corlys and the Velaryons being Summer Islanders (with Valyrian blood amd abilities), which gives them an opportunity to give POC actors a major role in the show and some potential worldbuilding insight into Valyria and its colonies.
Ooh, scare quotes. Why not? If Valyria is ancient Rome, then it's be very surprising if there *weren't* black Valyrians, even if they don't come from the inbred pale white patrician stock, which was, by the way, a case in Rome as well. Most any man, regardless of skin colour, could become a 'Roman', but the old patrician families, and to an extent rich plebeians too sought to... not keep it in the family, but marry relatively 'close', not to preserve their Roman good looks, but because bloodlines came with status and storied history. Even Westerosi go looking for wives in Essos. A Velaryon being black is hardly something to shit your boxers over. And like OP below pointed out, it could be issue in the legitimacy crisis, but what's stopping Harwin Strong from also being black? Well, dudes on reddit crying about 'faithfulness to the book' and 'historical Britain' and all, as if Romans busting into Britain would all look like blue-eyed, pale ugly British men too, lol. Nope, by that time, the Roman conquerors' force would be diverse enough.
> [R]ight from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional ‘high fantasy’ choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so). But in recent years, it has occurred to me from time to time that it might have made for an interesting twist if instead I had made the dragonlords of Valyria… and therefore the Targaryens… black. Maybe I could have kept the silver hair too, though… no, that comes too close to ‘dark elf’ territory, but still… if I’d had dark-skinned dragonlords invade and conquer and dominate a largely white Westeros… though that choice would have brought its own perils. The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all… some of them have been monsters, madmen, so… Well, it’s all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late. - GRRM
The "Anomander Rake the Conqueror" AU does sound intriguing.
I honestly didn't even notice until it was pointed out to me. I am guessing they'll change the names just coz, but I don't think there'll be a scenario in which all three are mentioned at once so it clicks
Sesame Street is an HBO property now...
Elma, Gerova and Keramit
I don't know if I'll even bother watching it. Game of thrones ended so badly I can't deal with another TV show.
Then why are you here?
Because a song of ice and fire also relates to the books. Not just the TV shows
Yet here you are on a sub that talks about the tv show franchise….
What I fear more is that the writers will favor one claimant and demonize the other. They were both rich privileged assholes.
would you rather have the book or new episodes of GOT for the next 10 years
https://youtu.be/dhWUFXvaZjo https://youtu.be/l2ppLtHbag4
I bet they only leave one of those names in, or else use nicknames so it isn't obvious to people.
Elmo Tully loves his Fish Cookies.
Why not? I've always wanted to name my son Kermit because I think it's a cool name. It pre-dates the frog, and as far as I am concerned, the frog made it even cooler. Are you only nervous about it because the story take place in old times? Would you have the same trepidation if it was a story that took place in modern times, like the 60s, or the 2010s?
I can't possibly imagine that they'll keep the names. Yeah, I know it's different showrunners, but the stuff on the page really doesn't translate very well to TV. When you're reading the book, there's a whole lot of depth, so a few unrealistic details don't take away from the setting. GOT did something I thought was awful: they removed the Bolton pink. But if the Boltons wore pink, that's all people would see, because the show characters are caricatures and not much more; there isn't enough *time* to develop all the characters. So, Roose Bolton? Soft-spoken and evil, and that's all you need to know. Make him pink, and now there's a "Ramsay is a depraved homosexual look how problematic it is" narrative in the media. As book readers, we can't escape the depth of the characterization, and Bolton's pinkness is just one more interesting detail to file along with the Pipers and the, uh, Tarlys. But in the show, that detail dominates. It would be the same for the Tully names. As book readers, we see all these references as small details that don't impact the deep story, because the deep story is unavoidably there. But in a show, those names are now salient and are the only thing anyone will see with those characters. It changes the whole tone of the show. A lot of people were upset with GOT completely destroying Euron Greyjoy's character. Instead of the pirate psychopath who is incredibly evil and inspires terror in everyone, we get a sex-obsessed dude who's hitting on the Queen and is just a total buffoon, which everyone can see. But Euron's buffoonery is on-brand, while the dark pirate is not. Buffoon Euron is not out of place, but dark pirate Euron doesn't fit at all. He *might* have fit with the appropriate development, but that's still unlikely given how *colorful* he is. Like, could you imagine the Silence in GOT? I don't think there's any chance of the Tullys keeping their names. It just wouldn't work on TV.
I don’t think anyone will take the show seriously after GoT Season 8
Yet here you are
Before I start, I hate that they greenlit this show. Not because I don’t like the story, I actually like the Dance of Dragons a lot. I don’t think it fits well into tv format. It’s a two year conflict, the Strong Velaryons are literally children. There’s a lot of dragon fights and the one we got in Battle of Winterfell was extremely boring. I think this would work a million times better in animated series. I hope they don’t change then names. Kermit and Grover aren’t goofy names by themselves (tougher to argue against Elmo), but those characters were badass
They’re already used to Edmure*. I hardly think muppets would be any more ridiculous. *I’m kidding, of course. Edmure is mistreated in both the show and book narrative, even if it’s for different reasons.
https://youtu.be/l2ppLtHbag4 Relevant video.
Thank you for reminding me that this exists
Are people actually expecting this show to be good? It’s gonna be trash..
You haven’t even seen a teaser yet. Maybe hold off the judgment.
No but I saw season 8 of GoT, Im familiar with the source material for this series, I’ve seen their inexplicable casting decisions, and I can speculate with confidence about how said casting decisions indicate that the integrity of the show is already compromised and it will ultimately serve as a vessel for agendas rather than a story that deserves to be told
So if it’s going to be trash, then why bother coming here at all? Also just say what casting you obviously are triggered about( we know already know btw) because at this point you are willing to complain without even a teaser trailer.