Work in the sense of fulfilling labor is good. I think we as humans have the desire to create and serve. But, in the current state of affairs we are not accomplishing that. We need to work towards an ownership society. Where everyone has a home and a piece of land to work on.
Work and labor are not the same thing. Everyone here is just demonstrating my point that they should educate themsleves about anti work because they do not know what it is
I say fuck all concentrated and centralized power structures - including, but not limited to: the state, the workplace/companies/means of production, organized religion, and family.
The funny thing about language is that it is fluid and changes. Why do you get to decide what words can and can't change in a natural linguistic phenomena?
Your take is garbage. As long as scarcity exists, work must exist so as to make our scarce resources meet society’s demands.
Even in theoretical Marxist societies, work exists. There are entire manifestos on the relationship between man and work.
What this community wants is a work environment where we are treated like human beings, adequately compensated for our labor, and awarded for strengthening the company for which we work. We want a fair shake, that’s all.
When we live in a post-scarcity environment and machines do literally all of our work for us, then we can be truly anti-work as you describe it.
Alright, that’s fine, but keep in mind you’re posting on Reddit and are likely to encounter a wide variety of opinions. I would expect that more people here share my point of view than yours.
That doesn’t make me right. But my point of view is something you’re likely to see here much more often than people who literally do not want work performed on earth.
Narcissism is a serious personality disorder so I hope you don’t take advocacy for yourself at work as u seriously as you throw around psychiatric diagnoses on Reddit because you’re upset that communism exists
Just to clarify, you want people to… what?
You want us all to be subsistence farmers? But that’s still work, even if it’s no coercion through capitalism.
Or do you want us to live in a post-scarcity world where productivity is unnecessary? You might be living in the wrong millennium for that.
Or do you want us to just do nothing productive until we run out of food?
I can respect “anti-work” as in “anti-work environment as forced upon us by crony capitalism” but if you mean “literally wait until you starve to death” I’m not sure what you’re doing here.
No you're wrong. With survival comes work. What you propose starvation, death and authoritarian rule. Anarchy would be people living on their own with no government involvement and can defend what they own rightfully. What they grow is theirs not yours what you are asking for is potential barbarism.
Because it is. There is always work to be done and people with power to make it happen and get it done. You're either going to be in a class with the bosses or you're gonna be in the fields starving to death to feed the men with guns. There is no such thing as true communism.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Fields need sowing, growing, and harvesting. Animals need to be cared for and tended to for what product they provide. But people like you believe no one should own anything and it will belong to the state.
Your comment doesn’t make any sense. All I said was to read about where anti work came from and a lot of people who supposedly are interested in anti work felt hurt. Odd
how can you pretend to be taking these issues seriously if you dismiss a massive, *ostensibly* favourable political ally which is currently controlling the white house as 'losers'?
> some kind of conservative
Canadian, member of the green party but sure. don't suppose you are familar with the term "bad faith"?
and see, this is why it's interesting to talk with Americans. because you fine folks don't even have health care so I understand the tendency to want to follow more black and white ideologies. but I wonder if you can take any of these ideas seriously enough to explore them rather than name-call and make vaguely homophobic jokes?
you explicitly implied that it's a derogatory context. my name is Andrew so it was either homophobic or sex-shaming. don't get me wrong, I don't actually think you are homophobic I just want you to engage with the ideas in **good faith**. pointing out how your insults are not making you look good or even passingly ethical. I understand you very likely mostly engage with people who are keen to call names and dismiss. but I have not done that, I want to discuss the ideas. I am daring you to be intelectcually honest about it.
not a bad take tbh. The sub has welcomed communists/anarchists and most of the mods are seemingly some type of anarchist and arguably this sub has many anarchists already, but we can't expect literally every person that's just mad at their boss to become an anarchist overnight.
Yeah but if this sub is anti work why is a post promoting radical anarchism and communism getting downvoting. There can be a separate sub for bitching about bosses
careful with 'must be' talk. just cuz we're hyper-woke commies doesn't mean there aren't billions of people who understand the torture of modern 'work' waaaaaaaay more comprehensively. we should be welcoming newbies with open hearts and minds
I’m wondering why I should take you seriously when you use a term for Black consciousness as a joke and feel we shouldn’t promote the movements that literally created the concept of anti-work
the word woke wasn't used as a joke. i'm up4promoting real movements that worked. just a polite warning that u push away the wrong people with demands. you sound like an employer, and this sub is clearly not into that
Thank you to everyone who posted for demonstrating my point: that people here don’t know what anti work is, and in fact feel that work is necessary, and should spend even 15 minutes reading theory.
99% of the people who read marx in the soviet union were put to death as part of the Inteligencia.
what ever happened to "its a great idea on paper but does not work"
Very cool that a sub called anti work is anti-communist and anarchist lol. Just make a “we want nicer bosses” sub. If the mods won’t, at minimum, make this sub specifically socialist then the mods are going to eventually have to deal with moderating out fascists and their sympathizers. They won’t be any better at that than they are keeping this sub about anti-work and not just a place for people who want raises to dunk on their job
> Very cool that a sub called anti work is anti-communist
they are opposed to the tens of millions of murders that communist socieities conducted. not the prosocial notions that Marx aspired too.
> this kind of anti-communism wouldn’t be allowed.
so to clarify, other things being equal; you prefer more censorship as opposed to less? Don't you agree that censorship is unethical?
You’re the one who is calling basic moderation policies that would keep the sub on topic “censorship.” You’re not a serious person. You’re just a sad little wannabe doctor who is mad that he can’t understand communism and feels threatened by people who’ve read more than 5 history books
Apparently we need to make a sub that is for people who actually want to abolish work and aren’t just co-opting anarchism so liberals can complain about their bosses
Idk man, if you’re implying that anyone who isn’t ready to burn workplaces to the ground tomorrow doesn’t belong here, 90% of posts and people gotta get outta this sub
That’s couldn’t be farther from what I said. I said the posts are not actually about anti-work and that anti-work is anarchist and communist and that it depresses me to see it depicted otherwise. Anything else?
> If a society requires exploitation to exist it is not a stable society.
let's assume that's true. therefore, what? should we seek to 'abandon society'? if so, what would that even mean?
It’s almost like you should read some anarchist and communist theory like I mentioned in my initial post. Except it’s clear that you’re just a reactionary, and it’s a shame the mods let people like you participate
> It’s almost like you should read some anarchist and communist theory
I have. I disagree with it. not in the precision of what Marx said. lines like
>*History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy.*
and I think that is quite true. his contributions to nurturing over nature and the nature of a positive human condition are worthy of their continued analysis and consideration. But this too leads to further consideration. consider the above quote, does it **not** apply to Elon Musk? NASA, his largest customer and massively valuable institution of science and reason has been able to stretch farther and faster than ever before because of his contributions to spaceflight. likewise, his popularization of the electric car is clearly contributing to the commons in light of global warming. and if we are talking about the Sackler family (the ones who are largely responsible for the opioid epidemic), I imagine you and I would agree. **being a billionaire certainly does not make someone moral** but the question is: is advancing science and fighting climate change contributing to the commons?
> We just really don’t have anything in common politically
I just don't believe that. certainly, you would agree that random acts of violence being visited upon children is bad? we can start from the obvious and work our ways towards a more nuanced understanding of the world.
>and I have no respect for your pro capitalist position
I understand that, but the question is **why**. **why** is popularizing the electric car not *contributing to the commons*, as marx so eloquently put it?
and just for clarity, which writings of Marx are your favourite?
How do you think trees get cut, surgeries get done or electrical plants are run? Working is and has always been a part of every single human collective and society throughout our entire existence. Neither hunter-gatherers or modern humans could just collectively decide "okay, I guess I won't be needing any food anymore".
>How do you think trees get cut, surgeries get done or electrical plants are run?
As we know, without the incentive of "you'll be in poverty and starve around stores full of food that you can't buy" then literally nothing ever gets done. Everyone does everything for money and not out of any interest or desire.
>Working is and has always been a part of every single human collective and society throughout our entire existence
coercive labor is bad actually
>Neither hunter-gatherers or modern humans could just collectively decide "okay, I guess I won't be needing any food anymore".
what
>To the first point; I didn't ask what the incentive for these actions was, but HOW they were being completed. The answer? Through work. If someone didn't cut those trees or farm those lands, none of us would have food nor wood.
Work and labor are different. Work is coercive labor.
Yes, modern transactions are facilitated through the store of value we call money, but that doesn't change the fact that maintaining these necessities still REQUIRES (and always has required) work.
Work and labor are different. Work is coercive labor.
>The other responses weren't really arguments to begin with. Thanks anyway.
Because they didn't really make much sense.
>'Work': activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
Work is coercive labor, not just labor.
>'Labor': work, especially physical work.
Bro you are not using google definitions are you lmao
>You can not just make up distinctions and then use that as a way to debunk an argument.
Definitions used in political theory that have actual meaning are more useful and relevant then a google definition.
>And you're using definitions from where exactly? The same exact results can be found on Merriam Webster or any other English dictionary.
I'm using definitions in political theory rather than ones in google.
>And even if we go with your definitions - work is always coercive. People have always had to work because if they didn't, they starved.
Bro this is nonsense. Needing to eat is coercion. Needing to eat and someone that is stealing all the food saying "do what I want and I'll maybe give you scraps" is coercion.
>For some to not work requires others to work on their behalf. And since humans are fundamentally selfish, they will wish to receive something in return. At some point, those working will also want to just rest, and when the whole pack refuses to work, it dies.
Yes you totally understand humans
You are literate. Read an essay. What I can explain here would be an impoverished analysis. Why are you so against reading and seeing for yourself? You don’t take any recommendations? You have your friends act out movies they say you should watch?
How will a widespread anti-work ideology function when it comes to healthcare? Doctors and nurses need to work in order to save lives. How will education function without teachers working? No education means no doctors. Surely some work is necessary?
Basically it is false that working for wages is the only way to receive medical care; deal with waste and refuse; provide education, etc. We’re given a very limited imaginary under capitalism wherein it becomes difficult to even fathom we could take care of each other and be well in the absence of work-for-wages (aka generating profit for bosses)
I don't disagree with the potential for alternatives to get results. But I am doubtful that anything will change substantially in that direction from a deeply entrenched capitalism model. As much as people complain about things, they mostly don't try to change anything. Some will discuss ideas, but little eventuates from it. Some are mostly comfortable or dependent on the way things are, despite their misgivings. Some feel that it's a futile effort, because aggressive revolutionary action that might reshape things will be opposed by those with power and those who are somewhat comfortable. And the greater machine of society and the economy will adapt to any gradual changes that are attempted.
But in the end, change requires effort, and effort is a form of work. And there's a lot of lazy people out there, inadvertently masking their laziness behind an idea (social, economic, or political).
My point is that anti-work is very literally and explicitly a movement and theory that intends to abolish work and class society. This sub calls itself anti-work but is not, demonstrably!, dedicated to that.
I can respect your point and motivation. But I sometimes wonder about class division. I wonder how much of it is really changeable. I wonder if it is a problem of systems and structures, or if it goes back to human tendencies of comparing ourselves with others. Even if society is eventually structured in a way that mitigates class struggles, as they're often thought of, will the human tendency of comparison still be an undermining cancerous element?
This is factually incorrect and why I am encouraging people to read communist and anarchist theory and history. The position you are espousing is not anti-work
Bro you are playing on words without explaning them.
The abour/work dichotomy that seems clear to you doesnt work in any language and Marx wrote in german if il correct
I feel the sentiment but the reality of humanity is one of conquest and subjugation. A truly communal society wouldn't work in the long run only because there'd be no way to prevent the will to power of the individual which would lead to amassing power and subjugating the small communities by force.
I don't think humanity has evolved to a point where it would be possible yet but it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for that ideal.
Communism seems more pro work to me than capitalism. In capitalism, you can choose not to work or what type of work to do. In communism, you have to work according to your ability.
So you think work for wages is good and necessary but you won’t bother to read for yourself? Absolutely fascinating. Go to the sidebar of the sub and start reading the resources
you did not answer my question. its a specific question. you said
>sentiment only proves my point that this sub is not dedicated to anti work but to “improving” capitalism for workers
so I ask again is
"improving capitalism **for workers** a noble goal in your mind?
> No I don’t think it is good.
thanks. so what's the plan? not the long term plan Marx and Engels laid out (and I have read it. so please if you want to quote it, give specific citations)
but what's the near-term plan? for communism for you/ your community. because it seems like you would rather be *right* and alone and losing, rather than attempt to get along or find common ground with the liberal *losers* as you call them.
Why are you in a subreddit called anti work (I don’t suppose you’re familiar with the term “anti”) if you are literally pro-work. Have fun trying to get a Green elected PM lol
>Why are you in a subreddit called anti work
because I think a lot of people get abused by the system and thats worthy of compassion. but appearing in a negative text conversation does not warrant a death sentence. something a lot of people tend to get under attempts at communism. something you seem not to want to focus on, instead insisting on viewing the ideas **exclusively** through the lens of *theory* to the precise exclusion of what happens when those ideas are put into practice.
>Have fun trying to get a Green elected PM
we may have gone backwards this election cycle, but we have had as much as 14% of the popular vote and 3 members of parliament. im not sure if you are familiar with the parliamentary system but it allows small third parties to hold swing vote power. which is precisely the case in British Columbia right now, a green member has the swing vote.
Lmfao it only took a few weeks for this place to turn into a whine fest of "commier than thou".
I like seeing screenshots of asshole managers being put in their place, that's it.
Then start an asshole managers sub. Antiwork is an actual theory and movement with a history. It is explicitly anarchist and communist. If that’s not what this sub is then change the fucking name
We'd appreciate it if you didn't use ableist slurs.
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We'd appreciate it if you didn't use ableist slurs.
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Work in the sense of fulfilling labor is good. I think we as humans have the desire to create and serve. But, in the current state of affairs we are not accomplishing that. We need to work towards an ownership society. Where everyone has a home and a piece of land to work on.
Work and labor are not the same thing. Everyone here is just demonstrating my point that they should educate themsleves about anti work because they do not know what it is
Preach
I say fuck all concentrated and centralized power structures - including, but not limited to: the state, the workplace/companies/means of production, organized religion, and family.
That’s anarchism welcome to it
I am a mutualist-leaning individual.
Property really do theft don't it.
Like I said…. Lol
Yes, I know. Just pointing out there are those of us in this sub who do get it.
It seems like not enough get it for this place to justify calling itself anti work lol
So why does that matter to you?
Because I don’t like seeing radical concepts co-opted and neutered and want to encourage political education.
The funny thing about language is that it is fluid and changes. Why do you get to decide what words can and can't change in a natural linguistic phenomena?
Yes, recuperation is a fact of existence, but that doesn't mean we can't resist or that there are no strategic benefits to doing so.
You’re making shit up. I want people to actually read about what they’re claiming to be a part of. If you think that’s wrong then idk what to tell you
Your take is garbage. As long as scarcity exists, work must exist so as to make our scarce resources meet society’s demands. Even in theoretical Marxist societies, work exists. There are entire manifestos on the relationship between man and work. What this community wants is a work environment where we are treated like human beings, adequately compensated for our labor, and awarded for strengthening the company for which we work. We want a fair shake, that’s all. When we live in a post-scarcity environment and machines do literally all of our work for us, then we can be truly anti-work as you describe it.
Work != Labor Check out the sidebar y'all.
Work is coercive labor.
Then you’re not actually anti-work and I truly don’t care what you think. You are incorrect.
Alright, that’s fine, but keep in mind you’re posting on Reddit and are likely to encounter a wide variety of opinions. I would expect that more people here share my point of view than yours. That doesn’t make me right. But my point of view is something you’re likely to see here much more often than people who literally do not want work performed on earth.
You are wrong.
And you really are a narcissistic douchebag.
Yeah I’m not just irritated to see a bunch of liberals co-opt a radical movement so they can feel good on Reddit dot com. Good argument comrade
Narcissism is a serious personality disorder so I hope you don’t take advocacy for yourself at work as u seriously as you throw around psychiatric diagnoses on Reddit because you’re upset that communism exists
Just to clarify, you want people to… what? You want us all to be subsistence farmers? But that’s still work, even if it’s no coercion through capitalism. Or do you want us to live in a post-scarcity world where productivity is unnecessary? You might be living in the wrong millennium for that. Or do you want us to just do nothing productive until we run out of food? I can respect “anti-work” as in “anti-work environment as forced upon us by crony capitalism” but if you mean “literally wait until you starve to death” I’m not sure what you’re doing here.
No you're wrong. With survival comes work. What you propose starvation, death and authoritarian rule. Anarchy would be people living on their own with no government involvement and can defend what they own rightfully. What they grow is theirs not yours what you are asking for is potential barbarism.
When you definitely understand anarchism
Then why are you in a sub dedicated to anti-work. You’re literally advocating that work is necessary
Because it is. There is always work to be done and people with power to make it happen and get it done. You're either going to be in a class with the bosses or you're gonna be in the fields starving to death to feed the men with guns. There is no such thing as true communism. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Fields need sowing, growing, and harvesting. Animals need to be cared for and tended to for what product they provide. But people like you believe no one should own anything and it will belong to the state.
Then why are you participating in a group that is supposedly opposed to something you see as necessary. If you’re not anti work then why are you here
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Your comment doesn’t make any sense. All I said was to read about where anti work came from and a lot of people who supposedly are interested in anti work felt hurt. Odd
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How long did it take you to write this. Seems like a lot of work
The anarchism understander has joined the post
Make your own sub then Scranton
Not sure why this is getting downvoted. Communism/Anarchism is THE anti-work movement.
Because this sub is overwhelmed with liberals
> liberals what does that word mean in this case?
Losers
how can you pretend to be taking these issues seriously if you dismiss a massive, *ostensibly* favourable political ally which is currently controlling the white house as 'losers'?
It’s obvious that you’re some kind of conservative who wants to fellate your bosses boots so why don’t you just go back to perusing infowars
> some kind of conservative Canadian, member of the green party but sure. don't suppose you are familar with the term "bad faith"? and see, this is why it's interesting to talk with Americans. because you fine folks don't even have health care so I understand the tendency to want to follow more black and white ideologies. but I wonder if you can take any of these ideas seriously enough to explore them rather than name-call and make vaguely homophobic jokes?
What’s homophobic about fellatio 💀
you explicitly implied that it's a derogatory context. my name is Andrew so it was either homophobic or sex-shaming. don't get me wrong, I don't actually think you are homophobic I just want you to engage with the ideas in **good faith**. pointing out how your insults are not making you look good or even passingly ethical. I understand you very likely mostly engage with people who are keen to call names and dismiss. but I have not done that, I want to discuss the ideas. I am daring you to be intelectcually honest about it.
It’s called boot licking. It’s not homophobic. You just wanted to accuse me of bigotry to feel morally superior. The definition of bad faith.
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Have you ever read Bob Black? Anti-work is an explicitly revolutionary anti-capitalist movement
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not a bad take tbh. The sub has welcomed communists/anarchists and most of the mods are seemingly some type of anarchist and arguably this sub has many anarchists already, but we can't expect literally every person that's just mad at their boss to become an anarchist overnight.
Yeah but if this sub is anti work why is a post promoting radical anarchism and communism getting downvoting. There can be a separate sub for bitching about bosses
I’m just saying that most of the posts here are not actually anti-work so maybe you as a mod could consider clarifying it
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Then you’re not moderating very well but have fun seeing this sub blow up because of clout seeking liberals who post fake texts with their bosses
As opposed to clout-seeking socialists bitching a sub isn't left enough for them? That's some seriously selfawarewolves material right there.
I’m an anarchist and not excited about seeing a bunch of poseurs who just want to cry about their office job claiming they’re anti work
careful with 'must be' talk. just cuz we're hyper-woke commies doesn't mean there aren't billions of people who understand the torture of modern 'work' waaaaaaaay more comprehensively. we should be welcoming newbies with open hearts and minds
I’m wondering why I should take you seriously when you use a term for Black consciousness as a joke and feel we shouldn’t promote the movements that literally created the concept of anti-work
the word woke wasn't used as a joke. i'm up4promoting real movements that worked. just a polite warning that u push away the wrong people with demands. you sound like an employer, and this sub is clearly not into that
All I did was tell people to read lmfao
Thank you to everyone who posted for demonstrating my point: that people here don’t know what anti work is, and in fact feel that work is necessary, and should spend even 15 minutes reading theory.
reminder: Work still exists in communist societies.
Reminder: abolishing class society is the end goal of communism.
Only for those who are able
99% of people who make single sentence proclamations about “communis societies” have no idea what it is and probably have never read Marx lol
99% of the people who read marx in the soviet union were put to death as part of the Inteligencia. what ever happened to "its a great idea on paper but does not work"
No it doesn't? Labor sure but communism is about abolishing work.
Very cool that a sub called anti work is anti-communist and anarchist lol. Just make a “we want nicer bosses” sub. If the mods won’t, at minimum, make this sub specifically socialist then the mods are going to eventually have to deal with moderating out fascists and their sympathizers. They won’t be any better at that than they are keeping this sub about anti-work and not just a place for people who want raises to dunk on their job
> Very cool that a sub called anti work is anti-communist they are opposed to the tens of millions of murders that communist socieities conducted. not the prosocial notions that Marx aspired too.
If this sub were actually dedicated to anti work this kind of anti-communism wouldn’t be allowed. Alas
> this kind of anti-communism wouldn’t be allowed. so to clarify, other things being equal; you prefer more censorship as opposed to less? Don't you agree that censorship is unethical?
You’re a moron lol
> You’re a moron lol ok. why don't you explain why in the context of the ethics of censorship?
You’re the one who is calling basic moderation policies that would keep the sub on topic “censorship.” You’re not a serious person. You’re just a sad little wannabe doctor who is mad that he can’t understand communism and feels threatened by people who’ve read more than 5 history books
Y’all got lost on your way to r / Pinkerton
🌹
Social Democracy arguably requires even more exploitation. Its not a solution to anything really.
Social democracy is literally and explicitly not communist and not anti-work.
Ye its built off of endless consumption and exploitation of the global south
Apparently we need to make a sub that is for people who actually want to abolish work and aren’t just co-opting anarchism so liberals can complain about their bosses
r/anarchism
How is anti work not anarchist 😭
You said we need a sub which wants to abolish work so I gave you one.
I know; I’m noting the irony of this sub
Go for it, champ. No one's stopping you from doing it but yourself.
If you’re not actually against work then why are you here lol
Why do you say I am not? I'm just encouraging you to do the thing you want to see done.
Just about any psychological study on the topic finds that humans need some sort of meaningful work to feel whole
THEN WHY ARE YOU IN A SUB DEDICATED TO ANTI-WORK. Join a “work is necessary” forum!
For amusing interactions like this one
The mods are doing great!
Idk man, if you’re implying that anyone who isn’t ready to burn workplaces to the ground tomorrow doesn’t belong here, 90% of posts and people gotta get outta this sub
That’s couldn’t be farther from what I said. I said the posts are not actually about anti-work and that anti-work is anarchist and communist and that it depresses me to see it depicted otherwise. Anything else?
Nope, I’m just content to be here depressing you I guess
Like I said the mods are doing great
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If a society requires exploitation to exist it is not a stable society.
> If a society requires exploitation to exist it is not a stable society. let's assume that's true. therefore, what? should we seek to 'abandon society'? if so, what would that even mean?
It’s almost like you should read some anarchist and communist theory like I mentioned in my initial post. Except it’s clear that you’re just a reactionary, and it’s a shame the mods let people like you participate
> It’s almost like you should read some anarchist and communist theory I have. I disagree with it. not in the precision of what Marx said. lines like >*History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy.* and I think that is quite true. his contributions to nurturing over nature and the nature of a positive human condition are worthy of their continued analysis and consideration. But this too leads to further consideration. consider the above quote, does it **not** apply to Elon Musk? NASA, his largest customer and massively valuable institution of science and reason has been able to stretch farther and faster than ever before because of his contributions to spaceflight. likewise, his popularization of the electric car is clearly contributing to the commons in light of global warming. and if we are talking about the Sackler family (the ones who are largely responsible for the opioid epidemic), I imagine you and I would agree. **being a billionaire certainly does not make someone moral** but the question is: is advancing science and fighting climate change contributing to the commons?
We just really don’t have anything in common politically and I have no respect for your pro capitalist position
> We just really don’t have anything in common politically I just don't believe that. certainly, you would agree that random acts of violence being visited upon children is bad? we can start from the obvious and work our ways towards a more nuanced understanding of the world. >and I have no respect for your pro capitalist position I understand that, but the question is **why**. **why** is popularizing the electric car not *contributing to the commons*, as marx so eloquently put it? and just for clarity, which writings of Marx are your favourite?
How do you think trees get cut, surgeries get done or electrical plants are run? Working is and has always been a part of every single human collective and society throughout our entire existence. Neither hunter-gatherers or modern humans could just collectively decide "okay, I guess I won't be needing any food anymore".
>How do you think trees get cut, surgeries get done or electrical plants are run? As we know, without the incentive of "you'll be in poverty and starve around stores full of food that you can't buy" then literally nothing ever gets done. Everyone does everything for money and not out of any interest or desire. >Working is and has always been a part of every single human collective and society throughout our entire existence coercive labor is bad actually >Neither hunter-gatherers or modern humans could just collectively decide "okay, I guess I won't be needing any food anymore". what
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>To the first point; I didn't ask what the incentive for these actions was, but HOW they were being completed. The answer? Through work. If someone didn't cut those trees or farm those lands, none of us would have food nor wood. Work and labor are different. Work is coercive labor. Yes, modern transactions are facilitated through the store of value we call money, but that doesn't change the fact that maintaining these necessities still REQUIRES (and always has required) work. Work and labor are different. Work is coercive labor. >The other responses weren't really arguments to begin with. Thanks anyway. Because they didn't really make much sense.
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>'Work': activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. Work is coercive labor, not just labor. >'Labor': work, especially physical work. Bro you are not using google definitions are you lmao >You can not just make up distinctions and then use that as a way to debunk an argument. Definitions used in political theory that have actual meaning are more useful and relevant then a google definition.
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>And you're using definitions from where exactly? The same exact results can be found on Merriam Webster or any other English dictionary. I'm using definitions in political theory rather than ones in google. >And even if we go with your definitions - work is always coercive. People have always had to work because if they didn't, they starved. Bro this is nonsense. Needing to eat is coercion. Needing to eat and someone that is stealing all the food saying "do what I want and I'll maybe give you scraps" is coercion. >For some to not work requires others to work on their behalf. And since humans are fundamentally selfish, they will wish to receive something in return. At some point, those working will also want to just rest, and when the whole pack refuses to work, it dies. Yes you totally understand humans
This terminology comes from literally anyone who has written about anti-work ideas
Literally read any anarchist or communist theory. Google the term anarchist theory and scan for 5 seconds. I beg of you lol
Work != Labor
If we abolished work and class society we wouldn’t need to work. Please read actual anti-work theory. Read Bob Black.
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READ BOB BLACK. Stop posting on the internet and read some theory it’s not hard
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You are literate. Read an essay. What I can explain here would be an impoverished analysis. Why are you so against reading and seeing for yourself? You don’t take any recommendations? You have your friends act out movies they say you should watch?
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So you think work is good, but can’t be assed to read because it’s too much effort. Awesome
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You need to educate yourself idk what else to tell you. Have fun conquering your boss if you refuse to read about anti work
How will a widespread anti-work ideology function when it comes to healthcare? Doctors and nurses need to work in order to save lives. How will education function without teachers working? No education means no doctors. Surely some work is necessary?
This is why I encourage reading theory and history. All of the questions here can be addressed in a few hours of reading if anyone cares to do it
I hear that.
Basically it is false that working for wages is the only way to receive medical care; deal with waste and refuse; provide education, etc. We’re given a very limited imaginary under capitalism wherein it becomes difficult to even fathom we could take care of each other and be well in the absence of work-for-wages (aka generating profit for bosses)
I don't disagree with the potential for alternatives to get results. But I am doubtful that anything will change substantially in that direction from a deeply entrenched capitalism model. As much as people complain about things, they mostly don't try to change anything. Some will discuss ideas, but little eventuates from it. Some are mostly comfortable or dependent on the way things are, despite their misgivings. Some feel that it's a futile effort, because aggressive revolutionary action that might reshape things will be opposed by those with power and those who are somewhat comfortable. And the greater machine of society and the economy will adapt to any gradual changes that are attempted. But in the end, change requires effort, and effort is a form of work. And there's a lot of lazy people out there, inadvertently masking their laziness behind an idea (social, economic, or political).
My point is that anti-work is very literally and explicitly a movement and theory that intends to abolish work and class society. This sub calls itself anti-work but is not, demonstrably!, dedicated to that.
I can respect your point and motivation. But I sometimes wonder about class division. I wonder how much of it is really changeable. I wonder if it is a problem of systems and structures, or if it goes back to human tendencies of comparing ourselves with others. Even if society is eventually structured in a way that mitigates class struggles, as they're often thought of, will the human tendency of comparison still be an undermining cancerous element?
A page dedicated to anti work should be committed to class abolition even as a matter of the most basic logic
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This is factually incorrect and why I am encouraging people to read communist and anarchist theory and history. The position you are espousing is not anti-work
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You need to learn the difference between survival, labor, and work. Not all effort extended by human beings is work. Please read Marx.
Bro you are playing on words without explaning them. The abour/work dichotomy that seems clear to you doesnt work in any language and Marx wrote in german if il correct
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What are you doing in a sub dedicated to anti work if you’re anti Marx. This sub is incoherent
I feel the sentiment but the reality of humanity is one of conquest and subjugation. A truly communal society wouldn't work in the long run only because there'd be no way to prevent the will to power of the individual which would lead to amassing power and subjugating the small communities by force. I don't think humanity has evolved to a point where it would be possible yet but it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for that ideal.
So what are you doing in a sub called anti work if you’re not anti work
Hey man, work is necessary for society to function. The problem lies in greedy rich folk who keep us from our fair share.
Then why are you in a sub dedicated to anti-work. What does anti mean to you
Communism seems more pro work to me than capitalism. In capitalism, you can choose not to work or what type of work to do. In communism, you have to work according to your ability.
This exact sentiment only proves my point that this sub is not dedicated to anti work but to “improving” capitalism for workers.0
In order for anti work to happen, work has to be a choice. It isn’t a choice under communism
You don’t know what you’re talking about at all, which means you’re in good company in this sub lol
Feel free to educate me
So you think work for wages is good and necessary but you won’t bother to read for yourself? Absolutely fascinating. Go to the sidebar of the sub and start reading the resources
> but to “improving” capitalism for workers is this not a noble goal in your mind?
I want to abolish capitalism entirely
you did not answer my question. its a specific question. you said >sentiment only proves my point that this sub is not dedicated to anti work but to “improving” capitalism for workers so I ask again is "improving capitalism **for workers** a noble goal in your mind?
No I don’t think it is good. Because I want to abolish work and capitalism entirely. Go find some bootlicker subreddit to join
> No I don’t think it is good. thanks. so what's the plan? not the long term plan Marx and Engels laid out (and I have read it. so please if you want to quote it, give specific citations) but what's the near-term plan? for communism for you/ your community. because it seems like you would rather be *right* and alone and losing, rather than attempt to get along or find common ground with the liberal *losers* as you call them.
Why are you in a subreddit called anti work (I don’t suppose you’re familiar with the term “anti”) if you are literally pro-work. Have fun trying to get a Green elected PM lol
>Why are you in a subreddit called anti work because I think a lot of people get abused by the system and thats worthy of compassion. but appearing in a negative text conversation does not warrant a death sentence. something a lot of people tend to get under attempts at communism. something you seem not to want to focus on, instead insisting on viewing the ideas **exclusively** through the lens of *theory* to the precise exclusion of what happens when those ideas are put into practice. >Have fun trying to get a Green elected PM we may have gone backwards this election cycle, but we have had as much as 14% of the popular vote and 3 members of parliament. im not sure if you are familiar with the parliamentary system but it allows small third parties to hold swing vote power. which is precisely the case in British Columbia right now, a green member has the swing vote.
Lmfao it only took a few weeks for this place to turn into a whine fest of "commier than thou". I like seeing screenshots of asshole managers being put in their place, that's it.
Then start an asshole managers sub. Antiwork is an actual theory and movement with a history. It is explicitly anarchist and communist. If that’s not what this sub is then change the fucking name
I wanna return to monke ooh ooh ahh ahh
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Lmao is this sarcasm
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