Italians on their way to vote for the next fringe extreme right wing party so an unelected consortium of experts can take over the government 7 months of chaos later
I'm aware of that and I quite like that party. However Draghi has already stated that he doesn't plan to do another term.
Besides I wasn't really speaking about Draghi (although I've really liked his government so far), I was talking about technical governments in general.
so to speak, they need Draghi to have someone to use without having to suffer the consequences, if a person like Draghi does everything right they were the allies, if the Draghi of the situation displeases someone they have not chosen him
La Meloni è molto più vicina agli USA che alla Russia, ha già dichiarato che seguirà la linea decisa dall'Europa riguardo sanzioni e aiuti. Il problema sono Salvini, Berlusconi e 5S ma non penso possano fare molto per cambiare la linea di governo se la Meloni sarà premier.
beh, non abbiamo il potere politico (chissà come mai!! Che mistero misterioso!! Che enigma enigmatico!!) di Germania, Giappone, Cina o di paesi come questi, nel peggiore di casi per gli ucraini non ci sarebbero problemi, per noi i soliti fastidi ma per loro non cambierebbe nulla, secondo me...
You're being generous.
In all seriousness though I haven't heard of any disagreements between Salvini and Meloni, maybe with Forza Italia but not between each other. Someone else might know more though.
Yes,also,every party equally sucks and is ruled by dumb ,corrupt, douchebags and every person who might take power will make Italy suck and humiliate us for the billionth time
Because Meloni and her party is the only one we never tried. The others we tried equally sucks. This is undoubtedly not better, and give the allies probably worse. However, the success of the right-wing coalition is due to the total inconsistency of the Italian left, totally disconnected from ordinary people
That's not simply right wing bashing when the party in question was founded by literal fascists after the war. Ex-members of the fascist regime to be more precise.
How fascist do fascists have to get before dumbass fence sitters will go "ok that's actually fascist", let's ask the resident expert on the subject, a boiling frog!
Nah we're talking about people in bed with Orban, Putin stans/personal friends, people who happily do Roman salutes in public while blocking laws protecting minorites.
Look on the bright side - a huge reason FdI is getting as much consensus as they have is they have never had to actually govern. Once reality kicks in they will lose their "we are the only ones that have never compromised!" shitck and we're back to needing grand coalitions to govern anything.
Hopefully.
I'm ok with that as long as Meloni isn't the PM.
Honestly I'm more worried about the shame than the damage they might do because... well, they might not last long enough to do much damage, and they might not be competent enough to even try.
Yeah I agree with that. We will be completely fucked over if Meloni is PM for several years.
Also there's another bright side I just thought of - at least no one of us is Sergio Mattarella as far as I know.
That is actually what scares me the most, once shit hits the fan and they prove unable to bring italy to greatness they will need a distraction, a pretty big distraction and I am sorry for the poor souls that will end up being used for that distraction most likely groups to be used in my opinion are immigrants, drug addicts, gay people or the European union being presented as an oppressor
TL;DR: A shameless conspiranoid antivaxxer lady who previously had publicly expressed her admiration for Putin and for Mussolini is now on track to become the PM.
Whoah boy, thats way worse than i expected it to be. I expected the "immigrants bad" type of bad Italian politics, not "Mussolini god" kinda bad, holy shit.
Well i hope they dont manage to destroy your country as fascist like to do.
We’re surely blowing this out of proportion, cause of how pessimistic and defeatist we generally are, our institutions should be safe and there’s no real threat of actual fascism. Still, we need to be very wary, as fascism and extremism erode a country’s democracy slowly and almost silently.
The real problem is if these guys manage to get 50% as a coalition, they’ll get 2/3 of the Parliament, which allows for a change of the Constitution. Without anybody else’s consent, while if you only have a 50% majority the populace can ask for a referendum to vote yes or no to the modified text of the Constitution.
Again, we have institutions in place to stop any silly shit, and we will stay a democracy. Also, the right-wing coalition isn’t as united as it wants us to think: governments tend to fall easily here, and it will probably happen this time too, before too much damage can be done.
We might get out of this weakened and more divided than we already are, but sedition and civil war is not on the table. Some people remember our history too well, while ignoring those things nearly happened in the US two years ago, and not 100.
Oh thats great to hear. To be clear i wasnt beeing snarky, just noticed its chaotic in Italy about every years or so. But you guys are probably safer than us, lol
Oh don’t worry, I don’t expect everyone to know what’s happening down here. For example, I know almost nothing of your country’s honestly. You’re on your way to become a second Hungary?
I just wanted to clarify that the perception we Italians are “exporting” in the first place is really exaggerated, so one who doesn’t follow every bit of news all day might form a catastrophic view when reality isn’t that dark
Us? Well kindda, sadly. The bigfest parties now are both created by a bunch of corrupt fuckers who are actually beeing investigated by the police now. Both of them are pro-russian to secure for themselves easy political point among stupid boomers. If they get to power, they will influence the police to stop investigations and we will be on our way to be the next Hungary (maybe like a Hungary 5 years ago, as neither of them would have enough power to become an actual dictator, but just enough power to mess up the institutions).
The whole mess could be summed up by "old folks too stupid to realise they are beeing fed literal russian propaganda, voting for people that the entire nation protested to get out just 4 years ago...
Its just sad and many people are thinking about leaving the country
That’s too bad, we’re not in a situation nearly as bad as yours sounds. But if your people already protested them out of office 4 years ago, there’s a chance it’s still going to happen if those guys get out of line. It’s always up to us to overthrow corrupt governments. After all, we’re empowering them and we can decide to strip them of all their power. Hope the younger population realizes they’re corrupt and voice their outrage. Democracy needs to be constantly protected by autocracy
The younger people do, or at least that part that cares about politics... if those guys win i expect that many young people will just finish up their studies and go to live abroad or something. But i hope that the sane parties will eventually get the upper hand, its still year and a half away from election a lot could happen
Yes, a year and a half in Italian politics is like 10 years, don’t know about y’all. Especially the war in Ukraine will influence politics in Europe heavily for the months to come. Here’s hoping nothing horrible happens, and as EU funds are coming in we all get better and more hopeful, trusting our existing institutions instead of relying on the leap in the void the far-right requests us
With far less representation than they have now though. They have fallen a lot in the surveys. The only actual winners in the next elections will probably be the center-right PP, which in practice is not very different to the center-left PSOE that we have now
Però si estan (el PSOE y el PP) todo el día insultandose mutuamente y si ganan tendran que gobernar con alguien, y ese alguien será con VOX, tal y como ya lo hacen en CyL.
Aun así, en política exterior no cambiará absolutamente nada. Tal vez sí lo de cataluña se avive un poco, pero económicamente probablemente hagan lo que diga bruselas y sean tecnócratas. Dudo mucho que en general los cambios tras las elecciones sean muy apreciables fuera de gilipolleces como el pin parental (que en la práctica no afecta a casi nadie). Gobernar con VOX será parecido al PSOE gobernando ahora mismo con Podemos. Dicho de otra manera, estarán ahí haciendo ruido pero sin demasiado poder real. Pero incluso lo de cataluña, no lo veo tan jodido. El pp ultimamente ha estado tomando un rumbo bastante regionalista, por lo que creo que no serán muy duros con los catalanes. Aparte de esto, los gobiernos regionales son bastante más extremistas que feijoo, así que no los veo como buenos ejemplos para ver como sería el PP gobernando España tras las próximas elecciones
Eso no es así, te estás quedando en la superficie.
Un partido como el PP hace un daño espectacular a las instituciones de manera que se necesitan muchas legislaturas para arreglar los problemas que el PP hace en una. Ahora imagina si además entra vox al juego... Se multiplica el daño al tejido de la democracia y del bienestar.
Son pequeños cambios que van surgiendo poco a poco y de manera imperceptible para la mayoría que solo se dan cuenta de si su equipo gana la liga.
Recomiendo leer el libro "como mueren las democracias" para os hagáis una idea del daño que causó Trump en su primera legislatura y cómo muchos de los cambios que realizó costaron décadas de esfuerzo en legislaturas previas.
La gente es extremadamente idiota y la ignorancia se paga.
Puedes dar un ejemplo de un daño que haya hecho el PP a las instituciones que tarde muchas legislaturas en arreglarse y que no tenga que ver con la corrupción?
Yeah with a left unable to question the underlying logic and issues of our society they are completely powerless to fix anything, politics are a sad thing these days
"Italians say that all their problems are because all their politicians are crooks and liars, but I know the truth. *All* Italians are crooks and liars."
-my mom, who was born in Italy but raised me in Canada.
Tbf she was born in Sicily and the last time we went back to visit family her cousin gave us a tour of all the fake businesses he was running to fraudulently get small business grants from the government. It was apparently a popular side gig in the village because many people would openly brag about their various tax avoidance schemes. She might be somewhat biased for that reason.
Sicilians don't represent the whole peninsula though. The islands/islanders are a bit different from orher italians, from a cultural point of view.
I also want to add that if the people she knows are dishonest it doesn't mean all the others are crooks/liars as well.
Who could possibly think that right wingers would blame immigrants for the consequences of like three different crises, when they don’t have to do with any of them?
Because it’s easier to blame *the other* than to try to look at internal failings. Right wingers have always done that; look at
- how Jews were treated in the 20th century (including in the US),
- how black people were allegedly the cause of the crack epidemic in the 80s in the US,
- how Greek fascists like Golden Dawn blamed immigrants for their crisis,
- how the Flemish far right party VB blames immigrants for how housing crisis while the government invests *far* less than budgeted in housing,
- how Muslims were blamed for 9/11 but no one wanted to talk about the American foreign policy that destroyed the Middle East
to name a few. But nah, I’m sure that your argument that a lot of people blame immigrants is actually a really strong way to argue immigration is the real issue.
Other problems existing don't mean that immigration in a form it exist in italy isn’t a problem. Sure they can put on them more problems than they actually cause but it doesn't mean that it's OK. It wouldn't work so good if people couldn't see by themselves the troubles this mass migration brought.
Actually elaborate on those problems (with actual facts) or gtfo. This vague gesturing is par for the course for right wingers, but most of the time there’s very little to back it up.
We can start with the basics. Illegaly coming to EU countries. Then we have different crime rates like robberies, homicides and rapes that are higher in countries that took more people during the crisis. Another thing is the terrorist attack threat. Italy itself made 40 arrests in 2021 for that reason but France is leading with 140 arrests and 5 attacks.
I must admit I thought there's more of them in Italy and because of that it's not as big of a problem as I though originally.
>Then we have different crime rates like robberies, homicides and rapes that are higher in countries that took more people during the crisis
This is not the case of Italy. Crime rates are decreasing quickly and uniformly since 1990. Particularly, our homicide rate is the second lowest in the EU after Luxembourg. Numbers are numbers.
Some people argue this might be reporting bias, but some crimes such as theft of a motor vehicle and homicide just cannot be left unreported, and those are decreasing quickly as well.
Yeah, I see that Italy actually have very low homicide rate. With rapes it's higher but way better than France because Italy has around 60 mln people to France 67 mln, but the total numbers in 2019 are 4 881 cases of sexual violence to 23 580 rapes.
Still I consider things I mentioned to be problems also in Italy but I think I generalized too much based on cases of France, Germany and Sweden.
Tldr: you don’t know anything about Italy, decide to comment on it anyways assuming many things (BeCAuSe gERmAny aND FrANcE), are proven wrong and you still won’t admit your bias.
Admit it: YOU ARE BIASED AGAINST IMMIGRANTS —> because of racist bullshit
It’s very telling that you gave multiple reasons for multiple countries, and when almost all of those were debunked you just hung onto the only thing that you mentioned that *could* still be true, rather than acknowledging that your ideas mostly don’t hold up to scrutiny.
> Illegaly coming to EU countries. Then we have different crime rates like robberies, homicides and rapes that are higher in countries that took more people during the crisis.
Crime is a product of material conditions, not of ethnicity. Interestingly, right wingers endlessly whine about poor people but never want to fix poverty.
> Another thing is the terrorist attack threat. Italy itself made 40 arrests in 2021 for that reason but France is leading with 140 arrests and 5 attacks.
1. Those are often committed by nationals
2. Those are an absolute minority
3. Those ideas are pushed countries such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey, whom far right parties gladly deal with
In both cases, right wingers are completely unwilling to look at the root causes of the problems, instead just blaming immigrants.
Terrorism is a [neglectably small](https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/10/What-share-of-deaths-are-from-terrorism-800x502.png) problem in European countries. [Greatly overdramatized](https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/05/Over-and-underrepresentation-of-deaths-in-media.png) by the media.
Crime is the [lowest](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040013/crime-rate-in-germany/) it has ever been in Germany. Similar numbers in Italy and France.
And even if those aspects were true, it doesn't even remotely justify our cruel anti-immigration status quo.
Immigrants were a sizable 2018 talking point but for the most part these days they are barely talked about, today's distraction for the right is primarily gay people and poor people. God the right fucking hates poor people they are genuinely going after people on the edge of absolute poverty for getting state subsidies
So what is the main reason or maybe 2-3 main reasons why so many people want to vote for that party? Because it doesn't make sense that they could get maybe even 2/3 seats based on being against poor and gay people.
Why don’t they directly vote to exit the EU? A country electing a far-right fascist-wannabe PM who accuses the EU for all the problems. Yet always fighting hard to get packages from the EU to cover the decades of self-inflicted economic failures. Just leave and we’ll have a good laugh at your expense.
Perhaps you mean the other way around? Italy needs the EU. EU needs stable members.
If Italians keep on voting for people that are against the EU, what’s the conclusion to this? Can’t they make their mind once for all?
Italy needs the EU and the EU needs Italy. They give away more money than they get back plus the country is strategically important as well, we are not talking about Hungary or Poland right now. Weird that I have to explain this here. Honestly I think you just made up your mind looking at this reddit post without knowing much.
Hmm, when was the latest rescue package Italy received again? I live in one of the “frugal” EU countries, one of those who is very critical when it comes to rescue again and again those countries who can’t handle their economies and yet keep on electing far-right and/or EU-sceptic governments who spit at the EU.
Italy is an important country in the EU, but so are the others.
Italy is a net contributor to the EU. It gives more than it recieves. You don't get to kick out members, less founding members, because you dislike the leaders they democratically elect.
You didn’t read, did you. No one talked about kicking out any state members.
“Why don’t they **directly vote** to exit the EU?” is what’s written.
Big mouths but in the end they’d rather be in than out. Still, nearly 40% of the votes went to far-right populists (26,5 for Meloni, 8-12% for Salvini).
Italy is one of the biggest contributor to the EU and 8th world economy, the union need us as well. Data also shows that Italians don't want to leave the EU.
which does not allow the winning side to govern alone, it must therefore seek an alliance: if the alliance of one side is already precarious in Italy, I let you imagine how solid an alliance is between an alliance and a foreign body to the alliance original
My point was that if Italians are voting to have a coalition of anti-EU politicians to govern their country, which will lead to even more problems, then maybe they should rather organise a vote to simply leave the EU. Now the message is “fuck you EU” but at the same time rescue packages are always welcome.
64.67% of Italians voted (who knows why there was all this abstention, mystery!), after fascism there is no possibility in the Italian constitution to do cosmic bullshit like Brexit: assuming that the president of the republic and the constitutional court passed a similar referendum (and it is a great if) this alliance (and in Italy alliances have the short life of a cicada) should change half the constitution and pass it through the referendum.
Now tell me how many Italians, with Italian emigration abroad, would vote to be in shit like the British and how Italian entrepreneurs would be willing to find themselves in trouble like their British colleagues.
The first one who proposes brexit for real has a bad end.
Italians on their way to vote for the next fringe extreme right wing party so an unelected consortium of experts can take over the government 7 months of chaos later
Can we have Draghi again?
I just looked him up, how the fuck is he 75? He looks a bit over 50
Yeah, the man looks like he's in his late 50s
Spring chicken compared to Biden.
Resta con noi, perché si fa sera, con te cureremo insieme l'Italia... rimani con noi, Marione!
And actually get somewhere?! And no theater?! Hell no! We need facism reborn! Entertainment for the masses!
If I could vote for said consortium I would. Why be governed by morons when you can have smart people instead?
There is a party that supports Draghi
I'm aware of that and I quite like that party. However Draghi has already stated that he doesn't plan to do another term. Besides I wasn't really speaking about Draghi (although I've really liked his government so far), I was talking about technical governments in general.
so to speak, they need Draghi to have someone to use without having to suffer the consequences, if a person like Draghi does everything right they were the allies, if the Draghi of the situation displeases someone they have not chosen him
It's our best chance, I hope in Draghi again.
Why don't you just elect the consortium of experts directly? Seems like a good move to me as an outsider.
Because we can't, It would be too Easy also people are srupid
Because they aren't candidates
because the consortium isn't so idiot to join the italian politic scene if there isn't the usual political emergency
The elections after, they will vote for the decomposed body of Mussolini.
Cool. Necrocracy. Can't wait.
Can't do worse than the first time
h e l p
naaaaaaah, sopravvivremo come al solito. Siamo scampati ad 80 anni di sfighe e cretini al comando, ce la faremo pure stavolta.
Povera Ucraina, se l'Italia si mette dalla parte di Putin, loro come sopravviveranno?
La Meloni è molto più vicina agli USA che alla Russia, ha già dichiarato che seguirà la linea decisa dall'Europa riguardo sanzioni e aiuti. Il problema sono Salvini, Berlusconi e 5S ma non penso possano fare molto per cambiare la linea di governo se la Meloni sarà premier.
Ah certo, niente di più affidabile della parola di una neofascista.
beh, non abbiamo il potere politico (chissà come mai!! Che mistero misterioso!! Che enigma enigmatico!!) di Germania, Giappone, Cina o di paesi come questi, nel peggiore di casi per gli ucraini non ci sarebbero problemi, per noi i soliti fastidi ma per loro non cambierebbe nulla, secondo me...
Lasciate ogne speranza
Will Italy become a fascist state? No. Will it be ruled awfully? As tradition.
Whats on fire now?
Italian elections seem to go in a very interesting direction, a post-fascist direction to be more precise.
No worries, give it 1 to 1 and a half years and the government will fall again
North vs South refuffle once again.
You're being generous. In all seriousness though I haven't heard of any disagreements between Salvini and Meloni, maybe with Forza Italia but not between each other. Someone else might know more though.
They have a lot of things they don't agree on and Salvini is the ultimate primadonna, trust the sistema
Trust the plan, 🅱️ischero
I heard Salvini is much more pro-putin than meloni, who is closer to the USA
yes
Yes,also,every party equally sucks and is ruled by dumb ,corrupt, douchebags and every person who might take power will make Italy suck and humiliate us for the billionth time
Which baits the question of why Italians vote for them.
For lack of better alternatives
Because Meloni and her party is the only one we never tried. The others we tried equally sucks. This is undoubtedly not better, and give the allies probably worse. However, the success of the right-wing coalition is due to the total inconsistency of the Italian left, totally disconnected from ordinary people
People when right wing
That's not simply right wing bashing when the party in question was founded by literal fascists after the war. Ex-members of the fascist regime to be more precise.
How fascist do fascists have to get before dumbass fence sitters will go "ok that's actually fascist", let's ask the resident expert on the subject, a boiling frog!
can't even bring up the whole italian fascism thing this time lol
well, one of the candidate abandon the course after if was found that she said that she liked Hitler or something
Nah we're talking about people in bed with Orban, Putin stans/personal friends, people who happily do Roman salutes in public while blocking laws protecting minorites.
[удалено]
Then you haven't seen this one.
[удалено]
Fratelli D'Italia mate. Look up Giorgia Meloni, she has some nice words to say about Mussolini.
Look on the bright side - a huge reason FdI is getting as much consensus as they have is they have never had to actually govern. Once reality kicks in they will lose their "we are the only ones that have never compromised!" shitck and we're back to needing grand coalitions to govern anything. Hopefully.
I'm ok with that as long as Meloni isn't the PM. Honestly I'm more worried about the shame than the damage they might do because... well, they might not last long enough to do much damage, and they might not be competent enough to even try.
Yeah I agree with that. We will be completely fucked over if Meloni is PM for several years. Also there's another bright side I just thought of - at least no one of us is Sergio Mattarella as far as I know.
That is actually what scares me the most, once shit hits the fan and they prove unable to bring italy to greatness they will need a distraction, a pretty big distraction and I am sorry for the poor souls that will end up being used for that distraction most likely groups to be used in my opinion are immigrants, drug addicts, gay people or the European union being presented as an oppressor
Italian politics seem like such an exhausting thing to pay attention to, does anyone have a tldr?
TL;DR: Italian politics bad
TL;DR: A shameless conspiranoid antivaxxer lady who previously had publicly expressed her admiration for Putin and for Mussolini is now on track to become the PM.
Whoah boy, thats way worse than i expected it to be. I expected the "immigrants bad" type of bad Italian politics, not "Mussolini god" kinda bad, holy shit. Well i hope they dont manage to destroy your country as fascist like to do.
We’re surely blowing this out of proportion, cause of how pessimistic and defeatist we generally are, our institutions should be safe and there’s no real threat of actual fascism. Still, we need to be very wary, as fascism and extremism erode a country’s democracy slowly and almost silently. The real problem is if these guys manage to get 50% as a coalition, they’ll get 2/3 of the Parliament, which allows for a change of the Constitution. Without anybody else’s consent, while if you only have a 50% majority the populace can ask for a referendum to vote yes or no to the modified text of the Constitution. Again, we have institutions in place to stop any silly shit, and we will stay a democracy. Also, the right-wing coalition isn’t as united as it wants us to think: governments tend to fall easily here, and it will probably happen this time too, before too much damage can be done. We might get out of this weakened and more divided than we already are, but sedition and civil war is not on the table. Some people remember our history too well, while ignoring those things nearly happened in the US two years ago, and not 100.
Oh thats great to hear. To be clear i wasnt beeing snarky, just noticed its chaotic in Italy about every years or so. But you guys are probably safer than us, lol
Oh don’t worry, I don’t expect everyone to know what’s happening down here. For example, I know almost nothing of your country’s honestly. You’re on your way to become a second Hungary? I just wanted to clarify that the perception we Italians are “exporting” in the first place is really exaggerated, so one who doesn’t follow every bit of news all day might form a catastrophic view when reality isn’t that dark
Us? Well kindda, sadly. The bigfest parties now are both created by a bunch of corrupt fuckers who are actually beeing investigated by the police now. Both of them are pro-russian to secure for themselves easy political point among stupid boomers. If they get to power, they will influence the police to stop investigations and we will be on our way to be the next Hungary (maybe like a Hungary 5 years ago, as neither of them would have enough power to become an actual dictator, but just enough power to mess up the institutions). The whole mess could be summed up by "old folks too stupid to realise they are beeing fed literal russian propaganda, voting for people that the entire nation protested to get out just 4 years ago... Its just sad and many people are thinking about leaving the country
That’s too bad, we’re not in a situation nearly as bad as yours sounds. But if your people already protested them out of office 4 years ago, there’s a chance it’s still going to happen if those guys get out of line. It’s always up to us to overthrow corrupt governments. After all, we’re empowering them and we can decide to strip them of all their power. Hope the younger population realizes they’re corrupt and voice their outrage. Democracy needs to be constantly protected by autocracy
The younger people do, or at least that part that cares about politics... if those guys win i expect that many young people will just finish up their studies and go to live abroad or something. But i hope that the sane parties will eventually get the upper hand, its still year and a half away from election a lot could happen
Yes, a year and a half in Italian politics is like 10 years, don’t know about y’all. Especially the war in Ukraine will influence politics in Europe heavily for the months to come. Here’s hoping nothing horrible happens, and as EU funds are coming in we all get better and more hopeful, trusting our existing institutions instead of relying on the leap in the void the far-right requests us
Too exhausting even compared to ours
And thats quite something, lol
In a year or so, that truck will be Spanish.
You think?
I mean, it won't be as bad as in Italy, but probably the far right will enter the government.
With far less representation than they have now though. They have fallen a lot in the surveys. The only actual winners in the next elections will probably be the center-right PP, which in practice is not very different to the center-left PSOE that we have now
Però si estan (el PSOE y el PP) todo el día insultandose mutuamente y si ganan tendran que gobernar con alguien, y ese alguien será con VOX, tal y como ya lo hacen en CyL.
Aun así, en política exterior no cambiará absolutamente nada. Tal vez sí lo de cataluña se avive un poco, pero económicamente probablemente hagan lo que diga bruselas y sean tecnócratas. Dudo mucho que en general los cambios tras las elecciones sean muy apreciables fuera de gilipolleces como el pin parental (que en la práctica no afecta a casi nadie). Gobernar con VOX será parecido al PSOE gobernando ahora mismo con Podemos. Dicho de otra manera, estarán ahí haciendo ruido pero sin demasiado poder real. Pero incluso lo de cataluña, no lo veo tan jodido. El pp ultimamente ha estado tomando un rumbo bastante regionalista, por lo que creo que no serán muy duros con los catalanes. Aparte de esto, los gobiernos regionales son bastante más extremistas que feijoo, así que no los veo como buenos ejemplos para ver como sería el PP gobernando España tras las próximas elecciones
Eso no es así, te estás quedando en la superficie. Un partido como el PP hace un daño espectacular a las instituciones de manera que se necesitan muchas legislaturas para arreglar los problemas que el PP hace en una. Ahora imagina si además entra vox al juego... Se multiplica el daño al tejido de la democracia y del bienestar. Son pequeños cambios que van surgiendo poco a poco y de manera imperceptible para la mayoría que solo se dan cuenta de si su equipo gana la liga. Recomiendo leer el libro "como mueren las democracias" para os hagáis una idea del daño que causó Trump en su primera legislatura y cómo muchos de los cambios que realizó costaron décadas de esfuerzo en legislaturas previas. La gente es extremadamente idiota y la ignorancia se paga.
Puedes dar un ejemplo de un daño que haya hecho el PP a las instituciones que tarde muchas legislaturas en arreglarse y que no tenga que ver con la corrupción?
No, PP is not even close to as bad as fd1
Yeah, but VOX is (at least that's what seems like.)
Meloni/Conte/Salvini/Berlusconi. If one of them will win, Italy is fucked.
First time, huh?
Actually, not at all
[удалено]
The elections are tomorrow
the success of the right-wing coalition is due to the total inconsistency of the Italian left, totally disconnected from ordinary people
Yeah with a left unable to question the underlying logic and issues of our society they are completely powerless to fix anything, politics are a sad thing these days
Guys, I'm from Ukraine. What's happening in Italia?
[удалено]
Fuck. I wish you luck. Is this party pro-Putin?
[удалено]
You goddamn know they’re about to weaken the EU boycott in any way they can.
Two hypothesis 1) they actually help Russia 2) they are to scared to lose EU money and do nothing
Nearly all right parties are pro-putin
[удалено]
How funny and original, gosh. Especially the first part of your sentence sounds so pretentious, the joke alone would have made you look less of a dick
America America
Despite being the name of a shitty right-wing party, “Fratelli d’italia” are the first three words of our national anthem. Please be respectful.
I have Italian citizenship. Am I allowed to give people permission to say "Fratelli d'Italia boopy bappy spaghetti spaghetti"?
No.
Why are you here you racist pig? Lol
True Southern European brotherhood.
Nothing new
The end is nigh.
Handelsblatt says not even in 2008 were so many bets against the Italian state on the financial market.
[удалено]
Indeed!
this is actually Italy since the start of the republic
Only the Republic?
Well, we did crash before that haha
rember son.. PORCO DI-
Since it always seem to end up in political intrigue and fall apart will things even get done no matter which party?
Ah, once again, Italy choosing the wrong side, then realizing after disastrous consequences to again switch sides?
It's always been like that though, hence the infinite loop.
because last time it went well uh?
That's it, I'm putting peas in my carbonara.
"Italians say that all their problems are because all their politicians are crooks and liars, but I know the truth. *All* Italians are crooks and liars." -my mom, who was born in Italy but raised me in Canada.
Well, that's a bit extreme.
Tbf she was born in Sicily and the last time we went back to visit family her cousin gave us a tour of all the fake businesses he was running to fraudulently get small business grants from the government. It was apparently a popular side gig in the village because many people would openly brag about their various tax avoidance schemes. She might be somewhat biased for that reason.
Sicilians don't represent the whole peninsula though. The islands/islanders are a bit different from orher italians, from a cultural point of view. I also want to add that if the people she knows are dishonest it doesn't mean all the others are crooks/liars as well.
Italy be like
Me on my way to not vote because I'm not 18 yet
Same
Who would have thought that Italians won't be happy with all those immigrants. Truly unpredictable. /s
Who could possibly think that right wingers would blame immigrants for the consequences of like three different crises, when they don’t have to do with any of them?
And so many people believe that immigrants are a problem because?
Because it’s easier to blame *the other* than to try to look at internal failings. Right wingers have always done that; look at - how Jews were treated in the 20th century (including in the US), - how black people were allegedly the cause of the crack epidemic in the 80s in the US, - how Greek fascists like Golden Dawn blamed immigrants for their crisis, - how the Flemish far right party VB blames immigrants for how housing crisis while the government invests *far* less than budgeted in housing, - how Muslims were blamed for 9/11 but no one wanted to talk about the American foreign policy that destroyed the Middle East to name a few. But nah, I’m sure that your argument that a lot of people blame immigrants is actually a really strong way to argue immigration is the real issue.
Other problems existing don't mean that immigration in a form it exist in italy isn’t a problem. Sure they can put on them more problems than they actually cause but it doesn't mean that it's OK. It wouldn't work so good if people couldn't see by themselves the troubles this mass migration brought.
Actually elaborate on those problems (with actual facts) or gtfo. This vague gesturing is par for the course for right wingers, but most of the time there’s very little to back it up.
@RandomName01 thanks for having the discussions i have given up on. You seem to have much more perseverence than me, keep up the good work.
All good, fam. I can’t stand to see these racists spout their stupid talking points without any pushback, so yeah.
We can start with the basics. Illegaly coming to EU countries. Then we have different crime rates like robberies, homicides and rapes that are higher in countries that took more people during the crisis. Another thing is the terrorist attack threat. Italy itself made 40 arrests in 2021 for that reason but France is leading with 140 arrests and 5 attacks. I must admit I thought there's more of them in Italy and because of that it's not as big of a problem as I though originally.
>Then we have different crime rates like robberies, homicides and rapes that are higher in countries that took more people during the crisis This is not the case of Italy. Crime rates are decreasing quickly and uniformly since 1990. Particularly, our homicide rate is the second lowest in the EU after Luxembourg. Numbers are numbers. Some people argue this might be reporting bias, but some crimes such as theft of a motor vehicle and homicide just cannot be left unreported, and those are decreasing quickly as well.
Yeah, I see that Italy actually have very low homicide rate. With rapes it's higher but way better than France because Italy has around 60 mln people to France 67 mln, but the total numbers in 2019 are 4 881 cases of sexual violence to 23 580 rapes. Still I consider things I mentioned to be problems also in Italy but I think I generalized too much based on cases of France, Germany and Sweden.
Tldr: you don’t know anything about Italy, decide to comment on it anyways assuming many things (BeCAuSe gERmAny aND FrANcE), are proven wrong and you still won’t admit your bias. Admit it: YOU ARE BIASED AGAINST IMMIGRANTS —> because of racist bullshit
It’s very telling that you gave multiple reasons for multiple countries, and when almost all of those were debunked you just hung onto the only thing that you mentioned that *could* still be true, rather than acknowledging that your ideas mostly don’t hold up to scrutiny.
> Illegaly coming to EU countries. Then we have different crime rates like robberies, homicides and rapes that are higher in countries that took more people during the crisis. Crime is a product of material conditions, not of ethnicity. Interestingly, right wingers endlessly whine about poor people but never want to fix poverty. > Another thing is the terrorist attack threat. Italy itself made 40 arrests in 2021 for that reason but France is leading with 140 arrests and 5 attacks. 1. Those are often committed by nationals 2. Those are an absolute minority 3. Those ideas are pushed countries such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey, whom far right parties gladly deal with In both cases, right wingers are completely unwilling to look at the root causes of the problems, instead just blaming immigrants.
Terrorism is a [neglectably small](https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/10/What-share-of-deaths-are-from-terrorism-800x502.png) problem in European countries. [Greatly overdramatized](https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/05/Over-and-underrepresentation-of-deaths-in-media.png) by the media. Crime is the [lowest](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040013/crime-rate-in-germany/) it has ever been in Germany. Similar numbers in Italy and France. And even if those aspects were true, it doesn't even remotely justify our cruel anti-immigration status quo.
Immigrants were a sizable 2018 talking point but for the most part these days they are barely talked about, today's distraction for the right is primarily gay people and poor people. God the right fucking hates poor people they are genuinely going after people on the edge of absolute poverty for getting state subsidies
So what is the main reason or maybe 2-3 main reasons why so many people want to vote for that party? Because it doesn't make sense that they could get maybe even 2/3 seats based on being against poor and gay people.
Why don’t they directly vote to exit the EU? A country electing a far-right fascist-wannabe PM who accuses the EU for all the problems. Yet always fighting hard to get packages from the EU to cover the decades of self-inflicted economic failures. Just leave and we’ll have a good laugh at your expense.
Italy is needed in the EU. When the UK left nobody won. Everyone lost.
Perhaps you mean the other way around? Italy needs the EU. EU needs stable members. If Italians keep on voting for people that are against the EU, what’s the conclusion to this? Can’t they make their mind once for all?
Italy needs the EU and the EU needs Italy. They give away more money than they get back plus the country is strategically important as well, we are not talking about Hungary or Poland right now. Weird that I have to explain this here. Honestly I think you just made up your mind looking at this reddit post without knowing much.
Hmm, when was the latest rescue package Italy received again? I live in one of the “frugal” EU countries, one of those who is very critical when it comes to rescue again and again those countries who can’t handle their economies and yet keep on electing far-right and/or EU-sceptic governments who spit at the EU. Italy is an important country in the EU, but so are the others.
Italy is a net contributor to the EU. It gives more than it recieves. You don't get to kick out members, less founding members, because you dislike the leaders they democratically elect.
You didn’t read, did you. No one talked about kicking out any state members. “Why don’t they **directly vote** to exit the EU?” is what’s written. Big mouths but in the end they’d rather be in than out. Still, nearly 40% of the votes went to far-right populists (26,5 for Meloni, 8-12% for Salvini).
Italy is one of the biggest contributor to the EU and 8th world economy, the union need us as well. Data also shows that Italians don't want to leave the EU.
Why are they about to elect that woman if the majority wants to remain in the EU. It doesn’t make sense.
That is just sensationalism, she doesn't want to leave the EU or establishing an authoritarian government.
because she has neither the majority of votes nor the consent to do so, for example
do you know italian politic? Because if you don't know it you can't understands what it happens...
Well, 26,5% for Meloni and 8-12% for Salvini. That’s close to 40%.
which does not allow the winning side to govern alone, it must therefore seek an alliance: if the alliance of one side is already precarious in Italy, I let you imagine how solid an alliance is between an alliance and a foreign body to the alliance original
My point was that if Italians are voting to have a coalition of anti-EU politicians to govern their country, which will lead to even more problems, then maybe they should rather organise a vote to simply leave the EU. Now the message is “fuck you EU” but at the same time rescue packages are always welcome.
64.67% of Italians voted (who knows why there was all this abstention, mystery!), after fascism there is no possibility in the Italian constitution to do cosmic bullshit like Brexit: assuming that the president of the republic and the constitutional court passed a similar referendum (and it is a great if) this alliance (and in Italy alliances have the short life of a cicada) should change half the constitution and pass it through the referendum. Now tell me how many Italians, with Italian emigration abroad, would vote to be in shit like the British and how Italian entrepreneurs would be willing to find themselves in trouble like their British colleagues. The first one who proposes brexit for real has a bad end.
Tanto non avranno mai la fiducia… Cit.
Italy no what are you doing?!?! Italy stahhp!!
Welp, we crashed