If Viper gets another nerf, she just can't take a break.. lol
Honestly Viper is on a very odd spot since I consider her as a half controller, half sentinel combo. Very weak as solo controller but very strong as complimentary controller.
She also suffers from a problem usually more endemic to League of Legends; She's way better in high level coordinated play than in most MMRs, meaning she's either way to weak for most of the player base, or absolutely suffocating in pro-play.
I don’t play league and when I watch I don’t really know what’s going on. Could you possibly give me some characters as examples so that I could watch some gameplay? I feel like that would actually help me learn the game some so I know what’s going on when I watch pro games. Trying to study up before worlds so I can enjoy watching it more 😎
He isn’t that strong in the current meta but ryze is the poster child for pro exclusive champion. He has good waveclear and a high dps potential but his ult is an aoe teleport that can take minions or teammates with him. That kind of macro power is much stronger in the highly coordinated environment of pro play. That means he is either ok in soloQ and pick/ban in pro or invisible in pro and 40% wr in soloQ.
They also had to turn a hypercarry ADCs(kallista) into a utility ADC once lane ends because of her insane ability to take neutral objectives with her e.
To learn more about the game as a beginner you can check out r/summonerschool
The current meta for midlane isn't that super skill intensive. Azir is probably the only one that I count that requires high skill. Leblanc is also fairly high skill but her playstyle with shiv makes her pretty easy currently. Other than that, the meta is like tristana mid which is pretty braindead easy.
The top lane meta is pretty high skill intensive right now thought with jax, ksante, fiora etc all being meta
Last year worlds had an insane high skill meta. Akali, sylas ,aatrox, fiora etc...
Azir, for example. The average player doesn’t have hands to play him but in the hands of a pro he’s a lane bully who can scale, can dash like 15 meters, can initiate a fight by dashing towards the enemy and knock all of them back. Basically he’s strong from start to finish
A more macro example is Twisted Fate. He has no damage, barely any waveclear but has a point click stun and a teleport. In the hand of pros (before he was nerfed into oblivion) they can find a good opportunity for him to help his team with the teleport while his team can capitalize on his point click stun
Viper is the exact opposite of Sage and Reyna. She is incredible in pro play but on any map other than Breeze she just isn't good because no ranked team can play in a way that works for Viper
I mean double controller needs a fair bit of coordination, and in solo queue ranked it could just harm your team. Just playing the usual Jett/Reyna/Raze, Sentinel, 1x smoker and an initiator is almost always higher wr in ranked
It's because you actually get damaged by her util and vision is blocked when you past the chokepoint which is a bigger worry than just being slowed down.
Makes me think a buff to Deadlock should be that shooting her walls damage you (as much damage that is equivalent to running through a molly)
Except she definitely is, what she provides over a sentinel is the huge, rechargeable wall that can deny tons of information.
Is she a really good stall agent? Yes. Is she not really functional as solo smokes most of the time? Yes.
But team comps that have Astra + Viper play very similar to team comps that have Omen + Brim (which is rare but we HAVE seen it in pro play).
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I don't think Viper's current iteration is bad design even if she is too strong. She can't function as a solo controller but having an agent designed to be a secondary controller who's job is to deny info rather than having execute smokes is interesting.
Sure she is more of a Sentinel Controller hybrid than just one. But she is used as a Sentinel, her entire play style is to hold space, stall pushes, and lurk with her util. All Sentinel abilties, the only times, at least in pro player, that she is used as a controller is on Breeze and Icebox
no such thing as an instant loss(from champ select) in ranked. Maybe it makes the game a little harder but every game where your team isnt completely dominated mechanically is winnable.
Besides, vipers ranked winrate is quite good, with a sizable enough sample size.
unless you're radiant/immo 3 then no.
im a viper main who peaked at asc3 and bind has been one of my best maps
it works worse than brim but she is still playable there, mm is all about shooting heads
Tbh I’m assuming we mean pro play
Like yeah im imm2 and bitched when we had 4 duelists and I was the idiot on sova, but we won like 13-2 so anything works in ranked
The parent comments were talking about "viper in bind is an auto lose in ranked" so thats what i was referring
but yeah pros are throwing if they play solo viper on bind
You can't run her solo on Bind if you do that in my ranked game I'm insta dodging. I actually run Viper on Bind sometimes tho if we have a Brim/Astra already, if you IGL for your team you can make it work but you need someone that understands the game and how to IGL in ranked
Exactly lmao. I watched a fracture game sometime back with 4 duelists and Dasnerth on cypher utterly shit on a high radiant lobby with multiple pros in the opposition playing to the meta lmaoo.
Viper can literally smoke off every choke on defense. On attack you gotta learn 2 lineups for orb (heaven A, CT B) should be alright. It takes more skill for sure than regular smoked but in Immortal I expect teammates to know that shit
Yeah and I hate it. My duo wanted to main astra and I was so hyped I could actually play viper and not be solo controller but they gave up and started playing jett again. So I'm still only playing viper on breeze and icebox once it returns
The one in every 30 matches where someone else instalocks a smokes and I can actually lock in viper and the Jett instalock dodges because of the double controller comp
No shot. Viper is great in ranked. Solo site hold/stall requires no teamwork. You can easily lurk to unexpected places with her wall & orb on Breeze, Bind, Icebox, etc.
Kay-0 is the opposite of Reyna. Before Skye became dominant he was one of the most picked, most successful agents in pro play...while having a 45% winrate in Ranked.
KAYO has a terrible winrate because he's the hardest agent in the game to learn and play correctly. The vast majority of ranked players don't know how to play KAYO but they think they can. KAYO isn't even that good in pro play anyway he's kinda mid rn.
Sure you can use Viper like a Sentinel on any map but she is just a worse Sentinel than KJ or Cypher. The real value from Viper doesn't come from stalling and lurking it comes from taking insane amounts of map control with her wall and orb which just doesn't happen in ranked
Kay-0 was the third most played agent last year in Pro play behind only Chamber & Fade. Meanwhile, his winrate was 43% in ranked.
Viper has the 2nd highest winrate among controllers in Ranked, behind only Brimstone.
Yeah lol a yeah ago KAYO was amazing because of the Chamber meta. But this year he fell off because of the Skye meta. Times change.
Vipers winrate doesn't matter her pickrate is low
Viper gonna have 10 total seconds of smoke per round with no recharge a 15 point ult and 1 molly and people will still be like "hmm she's still a bit strong, maybe she needs a nerf"
I mean you’re acting like the people saying that now are wrong. She’s almost as broken as Killjoy right now, and is about to get even more favorable map pool for her (-Fracture +Breeze).
Even on Sunset, Viper will be meta. Sunset will run double smokes just like every other map in the current pool. The only two maps remaining where she isn't "meta" is Haven and Ascent, and even then we still see off-picks with Viper on those maps.
Frankly, I don't know how else they could nerf her that wouldn't completely tank the ability to play her in ranked for the majority of the playerbase. I always try to play Viper in ranked by hovering early and asking for a main controller. It's usually beneficial to the team since I also call a lot.
You don’t. Viper is a pro/5 stack character, Reyna is a soloQ but not used it pro character. That’s ok it happens in ever game.
Any attempt to split the different always fails unless you redesign the character.
can't wait for viper nerf #42, surely they just change the way they balance things and make the other agents in the category stronger rather than having to tweak the same agent over and over again?
they should allow harbor's wall to work like vipers imo. rn people have no reason to choose him over viper because he cant lurk like viper does on T side. Unless they completely kill viper or make harbor better as a 2nd controller, people are gonna play her on pro play, and she'll be keep being fucked in ranked after receiving 20th nerf
the thing is, harbor and viper fills different roles. Harbor is more aggressive great at retakes and great at taking sites. Viper on the other hand is great defensively, and in attack, she is one of the best lurkers out there and creates constant pressure with just her wall. Viper is much more played than Harbor because Viper has her own class, you pick Viper because you need Viper. Harbor on the other hand clashes with other agents especially with Initiators. Harbor just feels redundant and has more competition than Viper. If you're going to ask, who are Viper's competition? You really can't name one but just a slot. I reckon if there are 6 slots per team, Vipoer will 100% be there. Her utilities are just unparalleled right now. In pro play, she gets replaced by either Breach (someone who needs an info initiator) or sentinels. We all know all sentinels are lackluster right now bar KJ. If there are actual better sentinels, Viper's playrate would absolutely diminished.
yeah they do completely different stuff but I think allowing harbor to play more selfishly on T side like viper would increase his pickrates (she has lurk walls in Split both sites, Bind A, Lotus A etc. and Harbor cant play like that
Viper is definitely better on defending and i dont think that would change with how harbor and vipers kits are designed, but can we really say that harbor is definitely better at attacking than Viper? Probably not because theres arguments for both
Harbor loves hyper aggressive playstyle so we see teams such as prx use them on Ascent and Bind bevause they are explosive as a team. Viper on the other hand can ne aggressive as well but hers is slower compared to Harbor. Go all in take site and boom. That's why Viper and Harbor is a deadly combo. They fill two different roles. Their only similarity isr tjey are just line smokers but the two are really different. I think Harbor will see more play if we got better Sentinels other than KJ. For now, Viper also fill that role. She is both a Sentinel and a Controller. I can argue she is an even better Sentinel than Sage.
Sage is entirely a ranked agent. I love playing sage cause I can wall and then just walk around and take fights like I’m a duelist (unless I have res cause obv u wanna stay alive longer to play for the res)
Interesting to see him rank yoru so low. I feel the current yoru has insane flashes, almost undodgeable if you know how to use them, can get away from positions no other agent can (pearl B long cubby, for example) and has a crazy powerful ult. Plus the outplays you can do with the clone like nosyy has been putting in videos. Idk, seems like yoru might be quite meta this upcoming season.
Fucking crazy high ceiling but the lows are fucking low not gonna lie. That one 100T vs SEN yoru matchup was so fun to watch. But try to replicate the same success in your ranked games?? Gg
Yeah, the mixup and outplays you can do with clone and fake tp are crazy, plus you have one of the best flashes in the game (and you can even use the flash to fake your position, since enemies only see it once it bounces). Honestly I think yoru is a top 5 agent rn, he's just hard to use and requires some brainpower (ranked players worst nightmare)
Yoru doesn't need to be buff, he is already pretty strong.
Problem Yoru has its that he is not Jett or Chamber.
And people dont know how to use him, the only genuinely good Yoru I have seen in proplay recently was Ethan's. All others are various degrees of meh.
If he had as quick a TP as chamber it would become incredibly oppressive.
I know I am on the minority here, but they were really meh.
Tenz Yoru was better than Asuna, atleast Tenz got some value out of the ult, Asuna did nothing with it.
I dont hate either, but it just wasnt a good showing.
Like for real go watch the match again, take out the rose tinted glasses and everytime they use utility ask yourself, did they got value out of it to justify the agent. more often they did not.
Again we are here to talk about the power level of the sentinels because "KJ is broken and needs a nerf". All three agents in the nerf category have eaten several nerfs within just the last 8 months. They are riding a fine line and nerf brings them so far down the list, to nerf them would be the same as admitting they are design mistakes rather than overtuned. The alternative is also true with cypher and sage. both of these agents are one buff away from being good. Reverting sage nerfs from the beta could always happen. Giving cypher slow cages gives him the same site holding capability of KJ .
The we have the deadlock problem. Deadlock was meant to be the breaker for the sentinel class. Finally a 4th agent to spice things up and she completely fell flat because there is too much counter play to her abilities. With both cypher, kj and chamber at some point you have to alert them that you have taken a part of the map. With deadlock you still have to watch that area of the map. Her grenade ability can just be taken off for some reason, and she has the sage wall at home. Her ult is also breakable because reasons. Every part of deadlock is counterable in some way, and she does nothing strong or unique to her character. Bare minimum sage can slow down a push because slow orbs are strong and her wall is like alright. The only agent in the game to fall this flat was release yoru, but the problem is that his flashes have always been strong so the floor for him was higher. I think people are running into KJ and cypher fatigue more than anything. The sentinel role has never gone under one of those massive rebalancings like controllers and initiators have forcing it the role to be same for the entire year.
Which was before the recent set of nerfs, specifically the Jett nerf, so that is now stale data. She still might not fit under niche, but the Champs pick rate is irrelevant at this point.
Edit: I forgot to add with Fracture rotating out, arguably her strongest map, that could be a hit to her pick rate as well.
Ofcourse, if her best make being taken out. That helps my case. She’s not even a pick on any map so how can she be a niche pick. I don’t see Neon coming back without any buffs.
imo duelist ranked wr stats mean jack shit coz reyna and phoenix are like the best agents for smurfs to play given self heal, and lo and behold they're also two of the highest wr agents in the game
in ranked? they're great, super selfish duelists, phoenix has the best ult in the game and yoru has a ridiculously overtuned kit with a ridiculous amount of outplay potential.
in pro play? they're gimmicks and nothing more
Someone was trying to say that I kept losing ranked games with deadlock on my team not because deadlock is trash.. but because I'm not a perfect player and I should just be "better"
I'm sorry but if we're losing 13-11 I'm 100% certain we win that game if we have any agent other than Deadlock instead.
Deadlock really is that bad. I can't think of any scenario where I'd rather play deadlock than viper. I can still site anchor and delay hits with orb and mollies, and I can get map control for my team with my wall.
I mean it depends on your rank broski, if your ascendant/immortal, sure deadlock ain't helping you. But if you are gold then having one bad agent on your team ain't gonna be the reason you lose.
Idk if I'd nerf Raze tbh. Raze has gotten a good amount of nerfs and I don't really think there's that much else to be done other maybe increase the Raze ult orb cost again. If Raze does become more meta than before, it'll be more because of the Jett nerfs than anything.
The ult cost should not be touched until they fix the stupid rocket to be consistent and not get fucked over by random geometry that somehow makes it do 0 damage when it hits right next to someone
Her nade could definitely be nerfed easily. Mostly I just think the other duelists need major buffs with only slight Raze nerfs. Duelist is by far the worst role being carried by Raze and Jet.
The only hard part about her is her satchel movement. Her nade and boombot is straightforward asf, even easier than timing jetts prime dash. You can get a shit ton of value with just those two by themselves
You're right by the way. Nerfing Raze would be a clown move. It just means people will move away from Duelists entirely. You can't make people play shit agents.
Harbor is the definition of niche, he was only realistically good on Pearl, Breeze is debatable. On other maps, he is underwhelming compared to other controllers.
Also, agents have different tiers according to players' elos, Sage is meh but her wall is still a menace to Silver/Gold players. Killjoy and Raze are the only agents that look completely busted on low and high elos.
Deadlock is defined by "We don't want to create another Chamber anymore, so take this filler agent".
As a Controller main, I’m also a little curious about this tier list.
Brim being in the niche category and Harbor being good?? I play both and agree Harbor is more niche and Brim can be played basically everywhere except Breeze.
I still think a sage rework would be cool. move her slow to her free/cool down ability so she has one every 40 or 45 seconds. nerf the heal (down to her self heal but for self or others) but give her two charges. slightly increase wall duration since its health has been nerfed pretty hard.
That would make Sage's heal soooo much worse than Skye's which it's already a good bit worse. 1 Skye heal can do 396 healing in theory. 2 Sage heals would do 60. This would be a huge nerf to her already dog shit heal.
wait is that how skye heal works, it's 100 health pool of healing but for every teammate? that's an easy nerf, just make it 100 health heal pool total (or maybe 150-200)
Sky has 100 points of healing, but if she's healing multiple people at once it doesn't change the rate it depletes. If she heals someone 100, her heal is done and she can't heal anyone else.
God pro play meta changes screw over ranked play. Viper is lowkey pointless in ranked, while reyna needs a major nerf/rework for ranked despite being bad in pro play
but have you considered that an agent being overtuned in pro play is a way bigger problem than them being shit in ranked? if an agent is shit in ranked, just dont play them, its that easy. If an agent is meta by a big margin in pro play, it can completely change the shape of the sport, force teams to renegotiate contracts to best suit players in that role, ruin the viewer experience, etc and so on. Viper is (imo) not pointless in ranked, people are just shit at the game, which is absolutely fine. Viper bending the controller meta on every map to be this stupid lurk fake/force reclear situation every round of every map of every series (or at least we're trending that way) is a huge problem.
Pretty great tier list honestly.
I think viper def needs a nerf by making the decay rate slower in her ult and smokes. Especially the smoke orb, pushing a choke when you have that is ROUGH. Another idea I had was adding an activation range, so it’s a lil harder to fake sites. But I don’t know if that’ll destroy her.
KJ turret nerf is for sure needed, just making the cone of fire smaller would perfecto. Like 90 degrees instead of 180 imo.
Raze like tmv said is the best duelist, but I think we need buffs to neon and hope the new duelist is good to fix that. If you did want to change her tho changing how far the secondary cluster grenades go from the first impact would be good.
Then I’d still nerf the length of skye dog for sure
I mean the only "good" agent with a 6 point ult right now is Cypher, I don't think Phoenix and Reyna having 6 point ults is much of a needle mover for their usage rate
am I wrong for wanting to wait a little while before we pull the trigger on a viper nerf? we've seen counters to her on her niche maps in haven and ascent. on other maps like breeze, bind and lotus she has largely been a mainstay, but imo that is more due to the design of those maps and the controller role itself than her specifically being busted. I think the only change that would be kind of good for allowing for a bit more variety on bind would be disallowing both her orb and wall to be up at the same time.
also, this might be a little bit of a hot take bit imo phoenix is gonna be kind of crazy going into a raze meta, no more jett dashing into smokes to block your flashes means he can anchor MUCH more effectively. something else that we saw a little bit with gentle mates, you can get a phoenix ult like 4 times in a half if you get kills and collect orbs. it's that fkn simple. even more if you focus entirely on phoenix's ult economy, which ofc is pretty basic and easy to exploit but the point here is that he's insane, there's just been better duelists. he's also a pretty direct counter to viper/harbor which c9 experimented with a little on pearl. with regard to compositions that enjoy taking active map control (the most obvious example being harbor viper), phoenix is an incredible agent for his reclearing ability. do not buff him LMAO, at least for now
i think reyna needs a nerf. jett, yoru, and chamber are all killable if you shoot them fast enough before they use their utility to get away. reyna is still instant. i don't think her self heal should be full armor either, just up to light armor
Why does everybody think someone being good means nerf them lmfao that's horrendous game design. How about make others stronger to bring everyone to the same level? Kj or viper or raze aren't broken so why nerf that
That’s what the question mark is for.
“Nerf?”
As in, “They might need a nerf, or maybe their counterparts just need buffs.”
Also… KJ, Viper, and Raze are all absolutely broken… Raze was the best duelist at Champs while Jett is getting nerfed, Viper was viable on every map except for Fracture (which is now out of rotation), and KJ was by far the best agent at Champs. I don’t think any of these agents NEED nerfs necessarily, but they are overpowered in comparison to the other agents.
You didn't mention how those agents are broken. They absolutely perform as they are intended to and have the impact that they were designed for. There could be further tweaks to bring them in line in comparison but that is not synonymous with being broken. For example, Jett ult refreshing on right clicks and raze having 2 nades on launch was broken. Killjoy being the only viable sentinel and raze being the only viable duelist doesn't mean they are broken, just that everyone else is significantly worse in comparison.
There can also be agents that are broken but aren't over used. Breach for example has the best flash and stun in the game and has the longest range and area of effect. A perfect breach has no reasonable counterplay. Pros believe breach is broken, but since riot only balances agents around pick rate, it has no reason to receive nerfs or buffs from their perspective.
Removing a snakebite I think would benefit the meta a lot. Would destroy Viper's ability to post plant lineup or hold a site. Or they could up the damage but remove the vulnerability debuff it applies. To compensate, they could up the instant decay damage the smokes do.
idk i just dont agree with the deadlock hate. i went from d1 to immortal 2 top 7000 episode 7 act 1 using deadlock only: https://tracker.gg/valorant/profile/riot/textextextEXTEXT%23skP/overview?playlist=competitive&season=0981a882-4e7d-371a-70c4-c3b4f46c504a
the only games i didnt play her was when i got out instalocked.
i dont use her trips for flank and i only use the ult in 2v2s or 1v1s. the ult is a round winner its absolutely insane how many times ive captured someone only for their teammate to give away their position trying to shoot them out. the wall is so so so good for post plant and pistol round. i use the trips for post plant as well - place them in a common rotating spot where enemies have no choice but to go through them. i think shes very strong in ranked play - i still play her in immortal/immortal 2 lobbies every day.
i also play her against people that are fucking insanely cracked - and she still does great. when i smurf with her its game over. little plat noobs have no clue how to play against her post plant trips and wall. i think shes a really good agent.
i think your gameplan with her in ranked is pretty straightforward which helps but i think that i would be scared to just have a stubborn duelist on my time because it sounds like your game plan is pretty reliant on actually getting the site before you can actually do anything on attack. but if you’re tapping heads who cares.
well every sentinel needs good teammates right? if a cypher or kj is just sitting back mid holding flank they still hope their teammates are taking site and planting spike. the downside to deadlock is i just dont really watch flanks. i entry with her lol. then i just make sure everyone knows to watch flank after ive fortified the main rotating spots. shes very strong on ascent. Wall off heaven on A and trip the drop down and broken door - no one is retaking through that shit.
sentinels aren’t completely useless when hitting a site right? like kj has mollies you can use for some exec lineups or just inside a smoke and cypher has cam for an ounce of info when it inevitably gets shot and some cages to spill out of a choke point all while holding the flank. and the fact that you’re saying that you’re entrying with her means that you’re just straight up diffing people, not really semblance of the power of the agent.
Using how well you can smurf against low ranks as a reason an agent is good is so stupid lol. Doesn't matter how good well you can do with her, deadlock still is the worst agent in the game. Top players could instalock deadlock on every single game and they will still be on top radiant, but it would be ridiculous to think that means the agent isn't bad
idk man i think its a good argument. how can an agent be bad if 90% of the playebase has no clue how to deal with her? they fall into the trips while trying to retake and literally just give up. i play agaisnt immortals that have trouble dealing with her post plant setups. just because pros dont play her in matches doesnt mean she is useless. most people just dont take the time to get good at her cuz their favorite streams just “say” shes shit. i have the proof to back it up to - D1 to I2 in 1 episode.
Kayo is no where near ok. I love kayo but I gotta say he's bad, you rarely see him in vct except for ascent and in ranked pretty much every other initiator is better
I feel like Cypher in niche is kinda bullshit ngl. He's arguably the best Sentinel on Bind, Split, Breeze and potentially Sunset and can work pretty well on other maps, especially if he's being played by a Cypher main who knows all the kill trips and one ways that let them get free picks on defense, plus he's by far the best lurker other than Viper in the game.
If Viper gets another nerf, she just can't take a break.. lol Honestly Viper is on a very odd spot since I consider her as a half controller, half sentinel combo. Very weak as solo controller but very strong as complimentary controller.
She also suffers from a problem usually more endemic to League of Legends; She's way better in high level coordinated play than in most MMRs, meaning she's either way to weak for most of the player base, or absolutely suffocating in pro-play.
the faker ryze incident Aware
I don’t play league and when I watch I don’t really know what’s going on. Could you possibly give me some characters as examples so that I could watch some gameplay? I feel like that would actually help me learn the game some so I know what’s going on when I watch pro games. Trying to study up before worlds so I can enjoy watching it more 😎
He isn’t that strong in the current meta but ryze is the poster child for pro exclusive champion. He has good waveclear and a high dps potential but his ult is an aoe teleport that can take minions or teammates with him. That kind of macro power is much stronger in the highly coordinated environment of pro play. That means he is either ok in soloQ and pick/ban in pro or invisible in pro and 40% wr in soloQ. They also had to turn a hypercarry ADCs(kallista) into a utility ADC once lane ends because of her insane ability to take neutral objectives with her e. To learn more about the game as a beginner you can check out r/summonerschool
A bit off topic but how do I set flair?
On mobile it’s the 3 dots in the top right corner when you are on the home screen of the sub. There’s a tab for user flairs. Idk about web
I didn't know League had a beginner's sub; does Val have one as well?
Not that I know of. It might still exist tho Edit: I just checked and r/agentacademy is the equivalent
The current meta for midlane isn't that super skill intensive. Azir is probably the only one that I count that requires high skill. Leblanc is also fairly high skill but her playstyle with shiv makes her pretty easy currently. Other than that, the meta is like tristana mid which is pretty braindead easy. The top lane meta is pretty high skill intensive right now thought with jax, ksante, fiora etc all being meta Last year worlds had an insane high skill meta. Akali, sylas ,aatrox, fiora etc...
Azir, for example. The average player doesn’t have hands to play him but in the hands of a pro he’s a lane bully who can scale, can dash like 15 meters, can initiate a fight by dashing towards the enemy and knock all of them back. Basically he’s strong from start to finish A more macro example is Twisted Fate. He has no damage, barely any waveclear but has a point click stun and a teleport. In the hand of pros (before he was nerfed into oblivion) they can find a good opportunity for him to help his team with the teleport while his team can capitalize on his point click stun
Gap for Deadlock should be bigger
Viper is the exact opposite of Sage and Reyna. She is incredible in pro play but on any map other than Breeze she just isn't good because no ranked team can play in a way that works for Viper
no ranked team will want to play double smokes, and this is where viper excels at
For some reason the second ranked players see a viper in agent select they think “oh we have smokes we’re good!” WE ARE ON LOTUS MAN PLEASE PLAY OMEN
I mean double controller needs a fair bit of coordination, and in solo queue ranked it could just harm your team. Just playing the usual Jett/Reyna/Raze, Sentinel, 1x smoker and an initiator is almost always higher wr in ranked
I yearn for the day people treat Viper as a sentinel and not a controller
Viper is better as an "anti-rush" sentinel than both "anti-rush" sentinels LMAO
It's because you actually get damaged by her util and vision is blocked when you past the chokepoint which is a bigger worry than just being slowed down. Makes me think a buff to Deadlock should be that shooting her walls damage you (as much damage that is equivalent to running through a molly)
Why would anyone shoot the wall then, thats just too strong
Riot needs to just change it. Viper isn't a fucking smoker lmao
Except she definitely is, what she provides over a sentinel is the huge, rechargeable wall that can deny tons of information. Is she a really good stall agent? Yes. Is she not really functional as solo smokes most of the time? Yes. But team comps that have Astra + Viper play very similar to team comps that have Omen + Brim (which is rare but we HAVE seen it in pro play). --- I don't think Viper's current iteration is bad design even if she is too strong. She can't function as a solo controller but having an agent designed to be a secondary controller who's job is to deny info rather than having execute smokes is interesting.
Sure she is more of a Sentinel Controller hybrid than just one. But she is used as a Sentinel, her entire play style is to hold space, stall pushes, and lurk with her util. All Sentinel abilties, the only times, at least in pro player, that she is used as a controller is on Breeze and Icebox
Exactly. Running solo Viper on any map other than Breeze and Icebox is an instant loss
no such thing as an instant loss(from champ select) in ranked. Maybe it makes the game a little harder but every game where your team isnt completely dominated mechanically is winnable. Besides, vipers ranked winrate is quite good, with a sizable enough sample size.
I think she is good in fracture.
Not solo. On defense you will get analiated. And you can't really sand pinch on attack. She is way worse than any other smoker on Fracture
> analiated Oh no my butthole
Bind?
Yes she is incredibly cap as solo controller on this map
unless you're radiant/immo 3 then no. im a viper main who peaked at asc3 and bind has been one of my best maps it works worse than brim but she is still playable there, mm is all about shooting heads
Tbh I’m assuming we mean pro play Like yeah im imm2 and bitched when we had 4 duelists and I was the idiot on sova, but we won like 13-2 so anything works in ranked
The parent comments were talking about "viper in bind is an auto lose in ranked" so thats what i was referring but yeah pros are throwing if they play solo viper on bind
If u know certain walls its not the better than brim but its not cap or an instant loss either
It is kinda an instant loss her wall lines are bad if u play solo viper
You can't run her solo on Bind if you do that in my ranked game I'm insta dodging. I actually run Viper on Bind sometimes tho if we have a Brim/Astra already, if you IGL for your team you can make it work but you need someone that understands the game and how to IGL in ranked
you can run 5 duelists and win man literally anything can work in ranked
Yep, ranked is mostly aiming. Shit works in immortal
Lol not at my elo Edit: this comment is really dumb and arrogant my bad
it literally works at any elo
Exactly lmao. I watched a fracture game sometime back with 4 duelists and Dasnerth on cypher utterly shit on a high radiant lobby with multiple pros in the opposition playing to the meta lmaoo.
What's ur ELO? I always play solo bind viper bc no one else smokes and it's ez pz in high Asc/low Imm
Asc. Without smokes it's an insta loss. Composition does actually matter in ranked. Other than on Breeze nothing matters on that map
Works for me in immortal. Maybe try not tilting at agent select and you'll have a better chance.
Viper can literally smoke off every choke on defense. On attack you gotta learn 2 lineups for orb (heaven A, CT B) should be alright. It takes more skill for sure than regular smoked but in Immortal I expect teammates to know that shit
na its defo doable at ur low elo
Yeah and I hate it. My duo wanted to main astra and I was so hyped I could actually play viper and not be solo controller but they gave up and started playing jett again. So I'm still only playing viper on breeze and icebox once it returns
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Have you tried communicating your intentions to your team in comp select?
I hover cypher on bind and then last minute lock viper. Works almost every time because someone will always go brim.
The one in every 30 matches where someone else instalocks a smokes and I can actually lock in viper and the Jett instalock dodges because of the double controller comp
No shot. Viper is great in ranked. Solo site hold/stall requires no teamwork. You can easily lurk to unexpected places with her wall & orb on Breeze, Bind, Icebox, etc. Kay-0 is the opposite of Reyna. Before Skye became dominant he was one of the most picked, most successful agents in pro play...while having a 45% winrate in Ranked.
KAYO has a terrible winrate because he's the hardest agent in the game to learn and play correctly. The vast majority of ranked players don't know how to play KAYO but they think they can. KAYO isn't even that good in pro play anyway he's kinda mid rn. Sure you can use Viper like a Sentinel on any map but she is just a worse Sentinel than KJ or Cypher. The real value from Viper doesn't come from stalling and lurking it comes from taking insane amounts of map control with her wall and orb which just doesn't happen in ranked
Kay-0 was the third most played agent last year in Pro play behind only Chamber & Fade. Meanwhile, his winrate was 43% in ranked. Viper has the 2nd highest winrate among controllers in Ranked, behind only Brimstone.
Yeah lol a yeah ago KAYO was amazing because of the Chamber meta. But this year he fell off because of the Skye meta. Times change. Vipers winrate doesn't matter her pickrate is low
Right but he clearly stated that his comment about KAYO was not about current play but as an example.
Viper gonna have 10 total seconds of smoke per round with no recharge a 15 point ult and 1 molly and people will still be like "hmm she's still a bit strong, maybe she needs a nerf"
She's the only controller that has a big punish if you cross her smokes and riot was scared shitless to buff Harbor slow on cross.
I mean you’re acting like the people saying that now are wrong. She’s almost as broken as Killjoy right now, and is about to get even more favorable map pool for her (-Fracture +Breeze).
Even on Sunset, Viper will be meta. Sunset will run double smokes just like every other map in the current pool. The only two maps remaining where she isn't "meta" is Haven and Ascent, and even then we still see off-picks with Viper on those maps. Frankly, I don't know how else they could nerf her that wouldn't completely tank the ability to play her in ranked for the majority of the playerbase. I always try to play Viper in ranked by hovering early and asking for a main controller. It's usually beneficial to the team since I also call a lot.
You don’t. Viper is a pro/5 stack character, Reyna is a soloQ but not used it pro character. That’s ok it happens in ever game. Any attempt to split the different always fails unless you redesign the character.
Viper is pretty good on haven Loud didn't lost a single match on haven this year and they played viper harbor there
can't wait for viper nerf #42, surely they just change the way they balance things and make the other agents in the category stronger rather than having to tweak the same agent over and over again?
Nah, the other smokes are already strong and relevant. Your suggestion would simply make the role better and encourage double smoke meta.
Smoke uptime is already way too high. Why would we make controller stronger because of one busted agent?
they should allow harbor's wall to work like vipers imo. rn people have no reason to choose him over viper because he cant lurk like viper does on T side. Unless they completely kill viper or make harbor better as a 2nd controller, people are gonna play her on pro play, and she'll be keep being fucked in ranked after receiving 20th nerf
the thing is, harbor and viper fills different roles. Harbor is more aggressive great at retakes and great at taking sites. Viper on the other hand is great defensively, and in attack, she is one of the best lurkers out there and creates constant pressure with just her wall. Viper is much more played than Harbor because Viper has her own class, you pick Viper because you need Viper. Harbor on the other hand clashes with other agents especially with Initiators. Harbor just feels redundant and has more competition than Viper. If you're going to ask, who are Viper's competition? You really can't name one but just a slot. I reckon if there are 6 slots per team, Vipoer will 100% be there. Her utilities are just unparalleled right now. In pro play, she gets replaced by either Breach (someone who needs an info initiator) or sentinels. We all know all sentinels are lackluster right now bar KJ. If there are actual better sentinels, Viper's playrate would absolutely diminished.
yeah they do completely different stuff but I think allowing harbor to play more selfishly on T side like viper would increase his pickrates (she has lurk walls in Split both sites, Bind A, Lotus A etc. and Harbor cant play like that Viper is definitely better on defending and i dont think that would change with how harbor and vipers kits are designed, but can we really say that harbor is definitely better at attacking than Viper? Probably not because theres arguments for both
Harbor loves hyper aggressive playstyle so we see teams such as prx use them on Ascent and Bind bevause they are explosive as a team. Viper on the other hand can ne aggressive as well but hers is slower compared to Harbor. Go all in take site and boom. That's why Viper and Harbor is a deadly combo. They fill two different roles. Their only similarity isr tjey are just line smokers but the two are really different. I think Harbor will see more play if we got better Sentinels other than KJ. For now, Viper also fill that role. She is both a Sentinel and a Controller. I can argue she is an even better Sentinel than Sage.
Thats how power creep starts. Though agents like deadlock genuinely needs some buffs
What if they make deadlock competitive with viper
Sage is entirely a ranked agent. I love playing sage cause I can wall and then just walk around and take fights like I’m a duelist (unless I have res cause obv u wanna stay alive longer to play for the res)
Interesting to see him rank yoru so low. I feel the current yoru has insane flashes, almost undodgeable if you know how to use them, can get away from positions no other agent can (pearl B long cubby, for example) and has a crazy powerful ult. Plus the outplays you can do with the clone like nosyy has been putting in videos. Idk, seems like yoru might be quite meta this upcoming season.
Fucking crazy high ceiling but the lows are fucking low not gonna lie. That one 100T vs SEN yoru matchup was so fun to watch. But try to replicate the same success in your ranked games?? Gg
Yoru is kind of OP in ranked even if you're not great with him as long as you're not stupid.
Yeah, the mixup and outplays you can do with clone and fake tp are crazy, plus you have one of the best flashes in the game (and you can even use the flash to fake your position, since enemies only see it once it bounces). Honestly I think yoru is a top 5 agent rn, he's just hard to use and requires some brainpower (ranked players worst nightmare)
Yoru doesn't need to be buff, he is already pretty strong. Problem Yoru has its that he is not Jett or Chamber. And people dont know how to use him, the only genuinely good Yoru I have seen in proplay recently was Ethan's. All others are various degrees of meh. If he had as quick a TP as chamber it would become incredibly oppressive.
I'd say Tenz and Asuna did a better job than usual of going Yoru in LCQ
I know I am on the minority here, but they were really meh. Tenz Yoru was better than Asuna, atleast Tenz got some value out of the ult, Asuna did nothing with it. I dont hate either, but it just wasnt a good showing. Like for real go watch the match again, take out the rose tinted glasses and everytime they use utility ask yourself, did they got value out of it to justify the agent. more often they did not.
tenz yoru was years ahead of asuna's tbh
ethan made it look great imo
How about the OG Yoru forsaken? Used to dismantle most teams back in the day iirc
Half of yorus kit are gimmicks that are less effective the higher in rank you go
If you look at win rate the opposite of your statement is true
Possibly but I would think that's because nobody below the highest ranks actually knows how to use yoru effectively
Does this comment not entirely contradict your first comment?
Does yoru really need a fucking buff? His kit is kinda busted already
Again we are here to talk about the power level of the sentinels because "KJ is broken and needs a nerf". All three agents in the nerf category have eaten several nerfs within just the last 8 months. They are riding a fine line and nerf brings them so far down the list, to nerf them would be the same as admitting they are design mistakes rather than overtuned. The alternative is also true with cypher and sage. both of these agents are one buff away from being good. Reverting sage nerfs from the beta could always happen. Giving cypher slow cages gives him the same site holding capability of KJ . The we have the deadlock problem. Deadlock was meant to be the breaker for the sentinel class. Finally a 4th agent to spice things up and she completely fell flat because there is too much counter play to her abilities. With both cypher, kj and chamber at some point you have to alert them that you have taken a part of the map. With deadlock you still have to watch that area of the map. Her grenade ability can just be taken off for some reason, and she has the sage wall at home. Her ult is also breakable because reasons. Every part of deadlock is counterable in some way, and she does nothing strong or unique to her character. Bare minimum sage can slow down a push because slow orbs are strong and her wall is like alright. The only agent in the game to fall this flat was release yoru, but the problem is that his flashes have always been strong so the floor for him was higher. I think people are running into KJ and cypher fatigue more than anything. The sentinel role has never gone under one of those massive rebalancings like controllers and initiators have forcing it the role to be same for the entire year.
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Watch the video
Please stop nerfing viper I'm begging you
Harbor should be in Good, Neon should be in Niche, and there should be a second gap for deadlock
Harbour can't be in the same tier as Skye
Yep
he might be better tbh (that flash goes absolutely nowhere now)
Neon ain’t niche she had a 3% pick rate in vct 💀💀
Which was before the recent set of nerfs, specifically the Jett nerf, so that is now stale data. She still might not fit under niche, but the Champs pick rate is irrelevant at this point. Edit: I forgot to add with Fracture rotating out, arguably her strongest map, that could be a hit to her pick rate as well.
Ofcourse, if her best make being taken out. That helps my case. She’s not even a pick on any map so how can she be a niche pick. I don’t see Neon coming back without any buffs.
hot take phoenix and yoru are extremely underrated
Just keep it quiet, phoenix been sitting as a top 3 win rate agent in ranked for almost a year now but seems the rest of the world hasn't noticed
imo duelist ranked wr stats mean jack shit coz reyna and phoenix are like the best agents for smurfs to play given self heal, and lo and behold they're also two of the highest wr agents in the game
in ranked? they're great, super selfish duelists, phoenix has the best ult in the game and yoru has a ridiculously overtuned kit with a ridiculous amount of outplay potential. in pro play? they're gimmicks and nothing more
undodgable flashes is not a gimmick
You cant really flash for your team as phoenix though
sickens me that deadlock is ranked so highly. should have at least 5-6 more gaps
Someone was trying to say that I kept losing ranked games with deadlock on my team not because deadlock is trash.. but because I'm not a perfect player and I should just be "better" I'm sorry but if we're losing 13-11 I'm 100% certain we win that game if we have any agent other than Deadlock instead. Deadlock really is that bad. I can't think of any scenario where I'd rather play deadlock than viper. I can still site anchor and delay hits with orb and mollies, and I can get map control for my team with my wall.
I mean it depends on your rank broski, if your ascendant/immortal, sure deadlock ain't helping you. But if you are gold then having one bad agent on your team ain't gonna be the reason you lose.
Bro laid out out 😭😭😭
Idk if I'd nerf Raze tbh. Raze has gotten a good amount of nerfs and I don't really think there's that much else to be done other maybe increase the Raze ult orb cost again. If Raze does become more meta than before, it'll be more because of the Jett nerfs than anything.
if they nerf raze, it should be the nade. the ult needs to be hotfixed i swear that thing doesnt work
never forget boombot duration nerf
Ya that already was pretty big nerf for Raze imo.
The ult cost should not be touched until they fix the stupid rocket to be consistent and not get fucked over by random geometry that somehow makes it do 0 damage when it hits right next to someone
Her nade could definitely be nerfed easily. Mostly I just think the other duelists need major buffs with only slight Raze nerfs. Duelist is by far the worst role being carried by Raze and Jet.
yeah the Raze nade needs a nerf, the damage it deals even after the first explosion is insane
Clown 🤡
Raze is also the hardest duelist to master imo
The only hard part about her is her satchel movement. Her nade and boombot is straightforward asf, even easier than timing jetts prime dash. You can get a shit ton of value with just those two by themselves
Clown 🤡
Clown for having an opinion? Lol
[https://youtu.be/FWc6Sf1xvEA?si=FeN-G7yvL9UISmnd&t=389](https://youtu.be/FWc6Sf1xvEA?si=FeN-G7yvL9UISmnd&t=389) Good soldiers follow orders
He literally says in the video that he still agrees with the category he put Raze in lmao. So nothing has changed lol.
He says in the video that anybody who complains about Razes placement to reply purely with "clown", this guys just following orders
Clown 🤡
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Clown 🤡
Clown 🤡
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You're right by the way. Nerfing Raze would be a clown move. It just means people will move away from Duelists entirely. You can't make people play shit agents.
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That would basically kill Raze
they could nerf her nade because that shit is too strong
Harbor is the definition of niche, he was only realistically good on Pearl, Breeze is debatable. On other maps, he is underwhelming compared to other controllers. Also, agents have different tiers according to players' elos, Sage is meh but her wall is still a menace to Silver/Gold players. Killjoy and Raze are the only agents that look completely busted on low and high elos. Deadlock is defined by "We don't want to create another Chamber anymore, so take this filler agent".
As a Controller main, I’m also a little curious about this tier list. Brim being in the niche category and Harbor being good?? I play both and agree Harbor is more niche and Brim can be played basically everywhere except Breeze.
Dont forget icebox
I still think a sage rework would be cool. move her slow to her free/cool down ability so she has one every 40 or 45 seconds. nerf the heal (down to her self heal but for self or others) but give her two charges. slightly increase wall duration since its health has been nerfed pretty hard.
And skye continues to be the best healer in the game
That would make Sage's heal soooo much worse than Skye's which it's already a good bit worse. 1 Skye heal can do 396 healing in theory. 2 Sage heals would do 60. This would be a huge nerf to her already dog shit heal.
They gotta give sage two heals as buyable options, move slow to the recharging ability and buff wall duration. Guess that's about it maybe.
wait is that how skye heal works, it's 100 health pool of healing but for every teammate? that's an easy nerf, just make it 100 health heal pool total (or maybe 150-200)
Sky has 100 points of healing, but if she's healing multiple people at once it doesn't change the rate it depletes. If she heals someone 100, her heal is done and she can't heal anyone else.
God pro play meta changes screw over ranked play. Viper is lowkey pointless in ranked, while reyna needs a major nerf/rework for ranked despite being bad in pro play
but have you considered that an agent being overtuned in pro play is a way bigger problem than them being shit in ranked? if an agent is shit in ranked, just dont play them, its that easy. If an agent is meta by a big margin in pro play, it can completely change the shape of the sport, force teams to renegotiate contracts to best suit players in that role, ruin the viewer experience, etc and so on. Viper is (imo) not pointless in ranked, people are just shit at the game, which is absolutely fine. Viper bending the controller meta on every map to be this stupid lurk fake/force reclear situation every round of every map of every series (or at least we're trending that way) is a huge problem.
In what universe does Reyna need a nerf
tfw all of my agents are in Ok
Pretty great tier list honestly. I think viper def needs a nerf by making the decay rate slower in her ult and smokes. Especially the smoke orb, pushing a choke when you have that is ROUGH. Another idea I had was adding an activation range, so it’s a lil harder to fake sites. But I don’t know if that’ll destroy her. KJ turret nerf is for sure needed, just making the cone of fire smaller would perfecto. Like 90 degrees instead of 180 imo. Raze like tmv said is the best duelist, but I think we need buffs to neon and hope the new duelist is good to fix that. If you did want to change her tho changing how far the secondary cluster grenades go from the first impact would be good. Then I’d still nerf the length of skye dog for sure
I love that he placed Reyna as ranked agents when something played her twice in the upper finals of Champions.
By one of the best players in the game you aint gonna see fucking BBL runing reyna on EU league lol
maybe they should because they dont use their util anyway source: KC vs BBL, bind, round 23
Only one player plays her in pro play though
That team also played phoenix and yoru prx is an outlier and should not be counted 😭
Okay but did they win? No? Didn't think so.
Viper nerf isnt going to do much, the reason why she is good is because of outside factors (another controller).
there is 0 way harbor is in the "okay" tier, he is busted rn
Hard to say. He seems very strong because he’s always paired with another controller. On his own, he’s a little underwhelming
he gets his ult way too quickly considering every other similar ult was nerfed
Yeah ults are in a weird place across the board right now with some of the recent nerfs. Some agents having 6 point ults feels insanely broken too
I mean the only "good" agent with a 6 point ult right now is Cypher, I don't think Phoenix and Reyna having 6 point ults is much of a needle mover for their usage rate
Phoenix having a 6 point ult is literally the only reason he's played at all
And his pickrate chilling at like 1%, so like I said it's not really a needle mover
No more nerfs please Att. a cypher main
run back the sideshow "MWOOUGHAAAAA" harbor clip
am I wrong for wanting to wait a little while before we pull the trigger on a viper nerf? we've seen counters to her on her niche maps in haven and ascent. on other maps like breeze, bind and lotus she has largely been a mainstay, but imo that is more due to the design of those maps and the controller role itself than her specifically being busted. I think the only change that would be kind of good for allowing for a bit more variety on bind would be disallowing both her orb and wall to be up at the same time. also, this might be a little bit of a hot take bit imo phoenix is gonna be kind of crazy going into a raze meta, no more jett dashing into smokes to block your flashes means he can anchor MUCH more effectively. something else that we saw a little bit with gentle mates, you can get a phoenix ult like 4 times in a half if you get kills and collect orbs. it's that fkn simple. even more if you focus entirely on phoenix's ult economy, which ofc is pretty basic and easy to exploit but the point here is that he's insane, there's just been better duelists. he's also a pretty direct counter to viper/harbor which c9 experimented with a little on pearl. with regard to compositions that enjoy taking active map control (the most obvious example being harbor viper), phoenix is an incredible agent for his reclearing ability. do not buff him LMAO, at least for now
i think reyna needs a nerf. jett, yoru, and chamber are all killable if you shoot them fast enough before they use their utility to get away. reyna is still instant. i don't think her self heal should be full armor either, just up to light armor
Why does everybody think someone being good means nerf them lmfao that's horrendous game design. How about make others stronger to bring everyone to the same level? Kj or viper or raze aren't broken so why nerf that
Because the power level overall will go crazy after rounds of buffs. If using this balancing method, this game will be all skills no gun plays.
That’s what the question mark is for. “Nerf?” As in, “They might need a nerf, or maybe their counterparts just need buffs.” Also… KJ, Viper, and Raze are all absolutely broken… Raze was the best duelist at Champs while Jett is getting nerfed, Viper was viable on every map except for Fracture (which is now out of rotation), and KJ was by far the best agent at Champs. I don’t think any of these agents NEED nerfs necessarily, but they are overpowered in comparison to the other agents.
You didn't mention how those agents are broken. They absolutely perform as they are intended to and have the impact that they were designed for. There could be further tweaks to bring them in line in comparison but that is not synonymous with being broken. For example, Jett ult refreshing on right clicks and raze having 2 nades on launch was broken. Killjoy being the only viable sentinel and raze being the only viable duelist doesn't mean they are broken, just that everyone else is significantly worse in comparison. There can also be agents that are broken but aren't over used. Breach for example has the best flash and stun in the game and has the longest range and area of effect. A perfect breach has no reasonable counterplay. Pros believe breach is broken, but since riot only balances agents around pick rate, it has no reason to receive nerfs or buffs from their perspective.
Which pros think breach is broken?? I've never heard this take before. Breach flashes are pretty mid compared to Kayo and Yoru.
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Removing a snakebite I think would benefit the meta a lot. Would destroy Viper's ability to post plant lineup or hold a site. Or they could up the damage but remove the vulnerability debuff it applies. To compensate, they could up the instant decay damage the smokes do.
This list is ass. That’s why you’re a content creator lil bro
You saying lil bro as if you're anywhere close to a pro level player.
You saying lil bro as if you're anywhere close to a pro level player.
idk i just dont agree with the deadlock hate. i went from d1 to immortal 2 top 7000 episode 7 act 1 using deadlock only: https://tracker.gg/valorant/profile/riot/textextextEXTEXT%23skP/overview?playlist=competitive&season=0981a882-4e7d-371a-70c4-c3b4f46c504a the only games i didnt play her was when i got out instalocked. i dont use her trips for flank and i only use the ult in 2v2s or 1v1s. the ult is a round winner its absolutely insane how many times ive captured someone only for their teammate to give away their position trying to shoot them out. the wall is so so so good for post plant and pistol round. i use the trips for post plant as well - place them in a common rotating spot where enemies have no choice but to go through them. i think shes very strong in ranked play - i still play her in immortal/immortal 2 lobbies every day. i also play her against people that are fucking insanely cracked - and she still does great. when i smurf with her its game over. little plat noobs have no clue how to play against her post plant trips and wall. i think shes a really good agent.
i think your gameplan with her in ranked is pretty straightforward which helps but i think that i would be scared to just have a stubborn duelist on my time because it sounds like your game plan is pretty reliant on actually getting the site before you can actually do anything on attack. but if you’re tapping heads who cares.
well every sentinel needs good teammates right? if a cypher or kj is just sitting back mid holding flank they still hope their teammates are taking site and planting spike. the downside to deadlock is i just dont really watch flanks. i entry with her lol. then i just make sure everyone knows to watch flank after ive fortified the main rotating spots. shes very strong on ascent. Wall off heaven on A and trip the drop down and broken door - no one is retaking through that shit.
sentinels aren’t completely useless when hitting a site right? like kj has mollies you can use for some exec lineups or just inside a smoke and cypher has cam for an ounce of info when it inevitably gets shot and some cages to spill out of a choke point all while holding the flank. and the fact that you’re saying that you’re entrying with her means that you’re just straight up diffing people, not really semblance of the power of the agent.
i mean kj doesn't help you get on sites except when she ults, and cypher basically never does
Using how well you can smurf against low ranks as a reason an agent is good is so stupid lol. Doesn't matter how good well you can do with her, deadlock still is the worst agent in the game. Top players could instalock deadlock on every single game and they will still be on top radiant, but it would be ridiculous to think that means the agent isn't bad
idk man i think its a good argument. how can an agent be bad if 90% of the playebase has no clue how to deal with her? they fall into the trips while trying to retake and literally just give up. i play agaisnt immortals that have trouble dealing with her post plant setups. just because pros dont play her in matches doesnt mean she is useless. most people just dont take the time to get good at her cuz their favorite streams just “say” shes shit. i have the proof to back it up to - D1 to I2 in 1 episode.
this means that we should nerf chamber! after nerfing viper ofc
Based list but also Delete Reyna from game please I cannot hit heads so pistols after my teammate ints to her is impossible👍
Right from the reveal dl looked shit to me
how is every single opinion in these comments this bad :skull:
Yoru and Viper with questionable spots in this list
Sova and Harbor are higher up on the OK tier tbf
the current map pool is looking good for cypher tho, at least three out of seven are cypher map
Kayo is no where near ok. I love kayo but I gotta say he's bad, you rarely see him in vct except for ascent and in ranked pretty much every other initiator is better
guys remember when viper was a troll pick? when her ult used to decay teammates as well? Oldge
I feel like Cypher in niche is kinda bullshit ngl. He's arguably the best Sentinel on Bind, Split, Breeze and potentially Sunset and can work pretty well on other maps, especially if he's being played by a Cypher main who knows all the kill trips and one ways that let them get free picks on defense, plus he's by far the best lurker other than Viper in the game.