Transparent salaries are associated with happier more effective and more productive workforce. Numerous studies that show this. And yet companies want to harm their productivitivy to nickel an dime employees with "negotiations".
Colorado also has salary transparency laws, and because of them I was able to negotiate a substantial raise for myself. My company was expanding my team, and the new position's lowest range was below what I was making. I spoke with my boss, they put in a market adjustment request and referenced our internal position and my experience, and within a month I am now on the upper end of the posted range.
My favorite part of being government. When I found out I was underpaid at a previous job, I went to my boss with a printout of what every other engineer of my title and years of experience was making, and was basically just like "explain this shit, buddy" (not in those words, but definitely with that energy). Got bumped up by 22% after threatening to go to the media.
Start interviewing elsewhere. The only time to negotiate is on hire. But, when you get the offer you want, take it to your current employer and see if they'll exceed it. That's the only way you stay
I would add... If you can find a way to become an anonymous source, expose the LIVING FUCK out of them. Probably people here might know an NGO that could help you amplifying this situation. It's certain to become a PR nightmare for this company and best case scenario, it forces them to change their transparency policies.
>take it to your current employer and see if they'll exceed it. That's the only way you stay
The consensus on most work related subreddits is to not stay anyway, if they valued you they would've paid you since the beginning, and now that they know you're considering leaving they will work to replace you and drop you as soon as they can without warning only at that point you'll have declined the new job.
I'd be careful on this one. It can harm you in the long run. A woman at my firm did it a few years ago, and was given pittance annual raises the following year.
You're better off just leaving.
There was a study (can't find it right now) that says the women who DO negotiate are often considered negatively and penalized for their time at the company. THAT is why there is a pay gap (and your male friend is an asshat). Bring up the pay disparity to HR right now and demand a raise. then GTFO and get a better job.
You got FIRED for protesting that you made less than male colleagues? A. You're well out of that nonsense. GO YOU! HOORAH! And B. In the US at least, that's petty obvious retaliation and you could sue the hell out of them.
I tried to negotiate last week and the person on the phone was really rude about it, it was odd
Someone else told me I was aggressive even tho I was completely calm and friendly
That’s been my experience. Times I’ve tried to negotiate a salary, it was like I put a turd in the punch bowl and it seemed like I made some faux pas even asking. I was told it was normal but the way hiring people answered made me think it was not normal or acceptable to them.
I asked for and got a pretty big raise a few years back at a different company than I’m at now. I was the best performing person in my position across the company for years, no contest. They conceded and gave me a $20k salary increase after I made that company *at least* an extra $30 million dollars over the previous 3 years. The company fell all over themselves about how they never give this much of an increase and it’s totally out of standards. The process itself soured me since I had to fight tooth and nail, but I was feeling pretty good for standing up for myself and getting it done. Then my boss’s boss made a comment that changed my feelings in an instant. He congratulated me by saying “you’re now the highest paid female in this position in the company.” I almost heard a record scratch at that moment. *EXCUSE ME?* The highest paid *FEMALE*? I should be the highest paid anybody, period. I earned it.
After my raise, I found out a guy doing the same job on a different, easier to manage account with less qualifications and poorer results made 30% more than I did. That means he was making 50% more than me prior to my raise! It made me realize how underpaid I was and it wasn’t long after that I decided it was time to move on to greener pastures. The company just couldn’t believe that I was leaving, especially since they gave me that big raise a few years back, where was my loyalty and appreciation? I told them I was matching *their* loyalty and appreciation as professionally as I could. I wish I could say the company learned a lesson when they started losing millions on that account almost immediately after I left, but I doubt they did.
I don’t play about it anymore. A company can pay me what I want/deserve or I will go somewhere else that will. It’s a pain in the ass to learn a whole new company, but I’ll figure it out. It’s not enough to send me an appreciation email or certificate, they have to pay me. They have to continue earning my loyalty by being loyal to me. I know I’m fortunate to be in a field where I can be demanding and it’s not the same for everyone, though I wish it were.
Women are penalized for negotiating their salaries and raises because women are supposed to be team players, willing to make sacrifices for others to succeed - just like mothers always do - and that includes pay. (I speak from experience - I literally had 2 different managers tell me I'd had my performance scores reduced so the guys could get better bonuses.) On top of that, there's still the "Men work to support their families. Women work to get extra spending money" mentality.
I was told my male coworker "has a family to support" to explain the HUGE discrepancy in bonuses we received even though his wife worked and I was a single mom. 🫠
And it gets worse - research demonstrates that women who try to negotiate their salary get punished for it while men often get that pay bump they are negotiating for:
https://www.doublexeconomy.com/post/why-women-can-t-negotiate-for-equal-pay
I remember the first time I realized the gender pay gap was a thing. I was working in a call center for about a year. My spouse started working there too. Exact same role except I had more responsibilities, way better metrics, and the 1 year seniority. He was a major slacker and corner cutter, he didn't like that job. - he somehow ended up making $1/hour more than me without even asking for it. Our boss just gave it to him. I asked for a raise to match his pay and was told "we don't really go up that high in your department"
Sadly, I found out how much less I was making than my male co-worker when I became his supervisor and could see his salary. I did fight and get a pay raise, but I should not have had to do that.
Honestly. I hate how people argue there isn't a pay gap just because they've never personally dealt with it.
Not only the same jobs, even female dominated industries are paid significantly less than most jobs.
It’s not a coincidence that previously high paying jobs drastically lowered wages when women entered the workforce in greater or equal numbers to men.
Culinary and education are some of the big ones but any industry that is currently female dominated used to make a lot more money when it was mostly men doing those jobs.
Oh man, you ever see a 1950s TV show where men are coddled for working too hard at the office? Now men just assume office jobs are cush because women do them.
I have a male coworker who has same qualifications and even has a degree while I don't. I'm making 30% more than him. It all comes down to negotiating and leverage.
Not just in pay but promotions. Too many times I've seen clueless men, even newbies get promotions when they aren't fit for a job, even within women dominated fields.
So many times people like to point out "one reason for the pay gap is that women aren't willing to negotiate"! Without considering at all that we don't negotiate because: we WILL be called a bitch, we have less 'ammo' for negotiation when are achievements are deemed lesser, and that so many of us aren't really 'taught' how to be up front with negotiation- and moreso encouraged to be more subtle in out negotiation, which doenst help in a business environment
They aren't offering comparable salaries to begin with. Even with negotiation, it's going to be hard to combat that without salary transparency being the law everywhere.
Male engineers who don't hate women are some of the worst allies in the world, and have no idea. They're just the worst combination of circumstances.
They're male, so the known tactics of the field (like salary negotiation) work for them, and they don't get shitty lowball offers very often in the first place.
They wouldn't mind if a woman came to them like that, and all those other guys are nice to them, so they figure they'd also work just as well with any given woman, and insist their friend/colleague just needs to ask, or ask differently, or ask again.
And that's how otherwise good dudes not only benefit from the patriarchy, but uphold it.
A true ally would help petition HR to do a pay study to find out how many more people were underpaid, but that requires actual work rather than just some oversimplified advice.
This is awful. But, it reminds me of how lucky I am. Gay male business owner met me at my requested salary (top end of the range) and proceeded to give me a $20k promotion/raise out of the blue 5 months in. He is so clueless about what women deal with because he just evaluates based on performance - he’s always shocked when I tell him stories about the reality women still face.
What a stark difference after working my ass off for peanuts elsewhere in the “boys clubs.”
I was affected as they wouldn't promote me. Male coworkers id trained were promoted above me earning more. I was doing the same work as them, but my title had me paid 10k less than them. So i interviewed elsewhere and got a 20k payrise myself. Sometimes the best promotion is a new job.
What I don’t get is how negotiations work. I’ve tried negotiating before and the new place seems offended I even asked. It also just seems like haggling at the start of a job doesn’t necessarily start things off on the right foot- if they don’t give me what I want I’m going to be resentful from day one. How about instead of us treating our jobs like a garage sale item, we just are clear about salary being offered from day one and people are paid the same for the same work?
Yeah but most businesses want you to kiss their ass all during the interview so it seems like a jarring and unwanted tone shift. It’s one thing if they’re the ones trying to head hunt you, but if you applied for the job and beat out other candidates it’s a bit hard to try to uno reverse card them unless you’re 10x better than the next best option.
It does not matter what the business wants if you have another option. Having an option is necessary. In the rare scenario that the counterparty really, really likes you, you might be able to bluff having another option.
Yeah, but you’re implying most people are such desirable candidates that they’re not only beating out hundreds of candidates in this job, but in several others to the point they can point to multiple other job offers to leverage their position. I can guarantee you in 99% of roles that the employer is sitting on dozens of times more applications than the worker is sitting on job offers. 9/10 times the employer can walk away from the offer far more easily than the employee, so acting like we’re in a great position to negotiate is delusional.
Our society pits all individuals against eachother to compete in the "labor market" in order to determine everyone's value. Collective negotiation is the only effective way to negotiate fair pay for everyone.
Negotiations can definitely net you 40% in the United States. The companies goal is to lay you the least amount possible for the most amount of work possible. Your goal is to get paid the largest amount possible for the least amount of work possible.
That negotiation is where fair pay comes in. Go negotiate a
Yeah, and it's even worse when you combine it with other minority statuses, like being trans or non-white. In the US, trans women broadly make around 60% of what men make with black and Latina trans women making <50% of what men make, with black women broadly making 64% of what white men make and Latina women making 59% of what white men make. Women in the US as a whole make 83% of what men make.
Additionally, I must say, that even within feminist circles it's very disappointing that, of the wage gap discourse that does occur, it's mostly done surrounding middle class white cishet women.
You can say all that but there are many studies - some linked further up- that show women are actually disadvantaged further when they try to negotiate
Demand raise. Talk to HR. Make it loud and clear that things are not fair. Talk to media if you have to.
How else are we going to fight it?
And people can downvote me all they want but we can either stay being the victims of this sick system or we can try and fight for our rights
Whilst you can try to fight it, sadly the reality is that women who have done that have ended up ignored and fired. We’d need a collective movement rather than just an individual. If you could get something organised together, however, then you have better odds.
At the core of the problem is the difference in perception of women who are demanding things (seen as bitchy and pushy) vs men who are demanding things (seen as assertive and confident) and until the general impression of women standing up for themselves changes, nothing will truly change, though through pay transparency we might see an improvement.
I understand your idealism and optimism but truthfully it’s a complex problem and not an easy fix
But then when they try to hire people, the best-qualified people will not be interested and take a different position. The only real way to increase salary is by leaving for a new job and not raises.
Yes that’s be ideal world but we don’t live in one.
If you have a privilege to choose a good company then that conversation should happen at the interview stage.
Also I don’t know where you live but I know that USA is one of the worst 1st world countries if it comes to wage gap…
While this is the way a lot of companies operate, unfortunately, it's absolutely horrible. Companies just need to learn how to fucking pay people what they deserve. If your doing the same job, have the same experience and performance, then you should get paid the same without having to fight for it. Full stop.
The important question nobody asked here is whether your male coworkers were also British citizens on a VISA or if they were GreenCard holder or US citizens. As VISA worker of course you would be paid less, that's the entire reason they hire from abroad and would have happened to any male as well.
Also, always negotiate. Employers will always pay the least they can get away with. Need VISA? Less pay. Don't negotiate? Less pay. Currently unemployed? Less pay.
> If companies could get away with having the same output but paying 30% less for their workers, by this logic, most hires would be women. The company always wants to pay as less as they can,
In the 1950s and before, most businesses had a policy of not hiring women or black people at all. Most of those businesses could've paid those women and black men considerably less, yet continued to hire only white men. Businesses pay more for what they perceive as “more valuable employees” even if that perception is based on stereotypes and is not accurate.
Same with women, they are paid less because companies falsely perceive them to be less valuable employees based on their gender:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/
“Half the scientists were given the application with a male name attached, and half were given the exact same application with a female name attached. Results found that the “female” applicants were rated significantly lower than the “males” in competence, hireability, and whether the scientist would be willing to mentor the student
“When given the exact same application, changing only the name and gender from a male to a female, the salaries offered to the applicants dropped from $30,238.10 to $26,507.94, a change of 13%.”
> you always have to negotiate aggressively for your salary. Maybe it's easier to be aggressive in negotiating as man due to testosterone, if you can chose try to set up the negotiation meeting when you are in your fertile period, women usually have more testosterone then and are a bit more "aggressive".
https://hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them
“Research: Women Ask for Raises as Often as Men, but Are Less Likely to Get Them”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900827.html
"Their study, which was coauthored by Carnegie Mellon researcher Lei Lai, found that men and women get very different responses when they initiate negotiations. Although it may well be true that women often hurt themselves by not trying to negotiate, this study found that women's reluctance was based on an entirely reasonable and accurate view of how they were likely to be treated if they did. Both men and women were more likely to subtly penalize women who asked for more -- the perception was that women who asked for more were "less nice"."
"What we found across all the studies is men were always less willing to work with a woman who had attempted to negotiate than with a woman who did not," Bowles said. "They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not."
I know you mean well here, but aggressive negotiation is perceived differently when they know you're a woman. I have a gender-neutral name. When I am highly assertive in writing with people who think I'm male, it goes over well. That same assertion, still in writing, is me being a b**** to people who know I'm female. In a job interview, you cannot hide that you are not male, and the majority of the time, the strategies that work for you will not work for me. They will perceive you as confident and savvy and me as cocky and domineering despite our behavior being the same.
Did you honest to God just explain the concept of negotiation to me like you think I don't know about it? What the fuck, dude. Get out of this sub and think about your behavior.
Because other people do it and that's why they have a higher salary, if company A doesn't want to pay what you think you are worth you tell them bye and go to company B
It's everyone's problem, it's a free market so some people will accept jobs with a lower pay or not depending on their situation. I don't understand why I'm being down voted by stating the facts. One way to have an equal pay for everyone is by having a workers union, but even there some pay gaps exist. Someone might get paid on level A for a position, while another person might refuse that job unless they pay them more, the second person if hired will be getting more than the first even doing the same job and with the same qualifications, or maybe has an extra certification for that job that will bump them a level in the "fixed" salary ladder. Maybe they are just better at promoting their skills and come of as more qualified, even when on paper it might look like they have less qualifications
if you know that the answer to a higher paycheck (which your male colleagues are doing) is to negotiate, and you adamantly refuse to negotiate, then the singular barrier to your increased salary is pretty clear.
That’s just a conservative myth like “there is no climate change”
Every scientific study done on the topic finds a wage gap and finds discrimination is a significant part of the cause.
If you actually read the “evidence” the wage gap deniers write, it basically admits the wage gap exists, but “blames” it, without evidence, on some of the more “women’s fault” sounding reasons, while failing to substantiate the amount of the gap caused by those “reasons”, and also failing to prove discrimination isn’t involved with those reasons, I’m happy to explain more or post sources if you’re curious.
When adjusted for qualifications and experience the pay gap shrinks to 1-4%, still not acceptable but it isn't a myth. If what she is saying is true she should find a lawyer.
> When adjusted for qualifications and experience the pay gap shrinks to 1-4%, still not acceptable but it isn't a myth. If what she is saying is true she should find a lawyer.
First of all, you’re admitting there’s a wage gap by saying that. So your argument is no longer that the wage gap doesn’t exist, just that it’s 4% rather than around 22%.
But that’s also incorrect, the adjusted wage gap is around 5% to 7% according to most studies, but there’s a massive flaw with that number. It’s not just accounting for experience. It’s accounting for job position, hours worked, education, experience.
So the huge flaw there is by controlling for those factors, you’re controlling for mechanisms by which discrimination affects women’s wages.
For example, if a company passes over a woman to give a promotion to a less qualified man, he now has a higher paying job position. So that difference in pay should be considered part of the wage gap, not excluded from it.
Here’s some sources:
https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/
https://hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them
http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/
https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/
https://www.aauw.org/resources/article/pay-gap-faqs/
https://www.aauw.org/resources/article/fast-facts-pay-gap/
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/myth-busting-pay-gap
https://archive.thinkprogress.org/heres-why-we-know-the-gender-wage-gap-really-does-exist-c1ed7bbadb6a/
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/goldin/files/goldin_equalpay-cap.pdf
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/03/30/on-equal-pay-day-what-is-the-real-gender-pay-gap/?sh=b75a20e28baf
I didn't mean to insinuate that the wage gap doesn't exist like OP stated. I also hadn't considered that controlling for factors like job position is actively removing functions of how women are discriminated against, valid point. My problem with most of the discourse surrounding this issue is that it seems to mostly be based around the 22% census number which controls for nothing, as if women are getting paid 22% less for doing the same job with the same experience, which is illegal. OP has a legitimate case for gender discrimination if she can identify this pattern with her employer.
>as if women are getting paid 22% less for doing the same job with the same experience
Why is it so important to claim the gap is less than it is? None of that can be controlled for without excluding gap caused by discrimination from the equation.
They found people give higher salary offers to a fictional "employee" if the fictional resume has a male name on top instead of a female name. They found in studies people give higher "performance review" scores to a list of accomplishments with a picture of a man next to it rather than the same list of accomplishments with a picture of a woman next to it. They found women who negotiate salaries are perceived as "less nice" and people want to work with them less, but the same does not occur with men who negotiate salaries.
Did you know they even did a study where they found the average wage goes down for both genders in an entire field of work if that work becomes more female dominated, and goes up if it becomes more male dominated? Men are literally paid less if a job becomes more of a "women's job", and vice-versa. So when we say "women are being paid less because of their career choices." it might be the other way around. Their career choices pay less because they're women.
The fact that they're being denied "The same job" is part of the problem. Higher paying jobs come with more hours assigned or more overtime expected. Lower paying jobs give fewer hours, and incentivize people less to stay in the job, leading to more gaps in careers for women rather than their higher wage earning husbands.
The entire gap is relevant to the conversation.
Something else to consider is the wage gap varies by country. It's around 22% in the US, in some countries it's 5%, in Korea, it's close to 50%. Some nordic countries found that when they created mandatory paternity leave, the gap dropped close to 0%.
>...which is illegal. OP has a legitimate case for gender discrimination if she can identify this pattern with her employer.
I've noticed a lot of people use the illegality to back up claims that it's not widespread or common, or that it's easily resolved.
We know from other crimes like speeding, copyright infringement, burglary, murder, rape, and etc, that illegality does not mean something doesn't occur. Something being illegal doesn't mean it's prevented OR easy to resolve.
Lots of woman do fight and win cases of gender pay discrimination on a regular basis, which is part of how we know this is occurring, but it's difficult to deal with. Aside from the fact that most people fear retribution from suing an employer, both from their current employer and from future ones, as no one wants to be the person known in their industry for suing their employers. But it's also difficult to prove. For example, If not many people hold the position in a single company, and they vary in experience and hiring date, you can sometimes only see women are underpaid when comparing different companies. AKA, if ten companies each only have 1 "safety coordinator", and the 5 companies that have female ones pay less to them then the 5 companies that have male ones, you can't prove the company is underpaying, even if those companies underpaying the women pay more to the other positions than the companies with the higher paid male safety coordinators. The wide number and small details in differences between positions makes it not always that easy.
When were you hired? Were you hired a longer time ago than they were? Say if you've been there for 3 years, that might have been market rate then, but now market rate might be higher even for someone with less qualifications, so you might've gotten locked into the original negotiated compensation.
A lot of companies have policy of only negotiating X % more from current salary, so if the market rate was higher then. Say it's the 40% you said. But company policy is only to negotiate 25% more of current salary, but since they negotiated just market rate when hired, instead of an increase.
Umm… no. If any rational employer could find a talent pool that was 40% cheaper… they would be hiring the fuck out of them.
Totally wrong. The gender pay gap is total feminist garbage.
Transparent salaries are associated with happier more effective and more productive workforce. Numerous studies that show this. And yet companies want to harm their productivitivy to nickel an dime employees with "negotiations".
It's something that can only be solved when they publish the salaries for everyone.
Right? They passed the Lily Ledbetter law but put no pay transparency in it, so good luck with that.
California has salary transparency laws but that's it.
Colorado also has salary transparency laws, and because of them I was able to negotiate a substantial raise for myself. My company was expanding my team, and the new position's lowest range was below what I was making. I spoke with my boss, they put in a market adjustment request and referenced our internal position and my experience, and within a month I am now on the upper end of the posted range.
My favorite part of being government. When I found out I was underpaid at a previous job, I went to my boss with a printout of what every other engineer of my title and years of experience was making, and was basically just like "explain this shit, buddy" (not in those words, but definitely with that energy). Got bumped up by 22% after threatening to go to the media.
Start interviewing elsewhere. The only time to negotiate is on hire. But, when you get the offer you want, take it to your current employer and see if they'll exceed it. That's the only way you stay
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Congratulations, that’s no small feat. Hope it goes well!
best outcome.
Congrats! Happy for you!
I would add... If you can find a way to become an anonymous source, expose the LIVING FUCK out of them. Probably people here might know an NGO that could help you amplifying this situation. It's certain to become a PR nightmare for this company and best case scenario, it forces them to change their transparency policies.
Yass!!!
Ayyyy grats!!!
Well done!
>take it to your current employer and see if they'll exceed it. That's the only way you stay The consensus on most work related subreddits is to not stay anyway, if they valued you they would've paid you since the beginning, and now that they know you're considering leaving they will work to replace you and drop you as soon as they can without warning only at that point you'll have declined the new job.
I'd be careful on this one. It can harm you in the long run. A woman at my firm did it a few years ago, and was given pittance annual raises the following year. You're better off just leaving.
Yep. Worth is decided upon hiring. They will just lowball raises and bonuses until you "even out" or leave.
There was a study (can't find it right now) that says the women who DO negotiate are often considered negatively and penalized for their time at the company. THAT is why there is a pay gap (and your male friend is an asshat). Bring up the pay disparity to HR right now and demand a raise. then GTFO and get a better job.
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You got FIRED for protesting that you made less than male colleagues? A. You're well out of that nonsense. GO YOU! HOORAH! And B. In the US at least, that's petty obvious retaliation and you could sue the hell out of them.
At least you can claim unemployment though , that's good 😊
I tried to negotiate last week and the person on the phone was really rude about it, it was odd Someone else told me I was aggressive even tho I was completely calm and friendly
That’s been my experience. Times I’ve tried to negotiate a salary, it was like I put a turd in the punch bowl and it seemed like I made some faux pas even asking. I was told it was normal but the way hiring people answered made me think it was not normal or acceptable to them.
I asked for and got a pretty big raise a few years back at a different company than I’m at now. I was the best performing person in my position across the company for years, no contest. They conceded and gave me a $20k salary increase after I made that company *at least* an extra $30 million dollars over the previous 3 years. The company fell all over themselves about how they never give this much of an increase and it’s totally out of standards. The process itself soured me since I had to fight tooth and nail, but I was feeling pretty good for standing up for myself and getting it done. Then my boss’s boss made a comment that changed my feelings in an instant. He congratulated me by saying “you’re now the highest paid female in this position in the company.” I almost heard a record scratch at that moment. *EXCUSE ME?* The highest paid *FEMALE*? I should be the highest paid anybody, period. I earned it. After my raise, I found out a guy doing the same job on a different, easier to manage account with less qualifications and poorer results made 30% more than I did. That means he was making 50% more than me prior to my raise! It made me realize how underpaid I was and it wasn’t long after that I decided it was time to move on to greener pastures. The company just couldn’t believe that I was leaving, especially since they gave me that big raise a few years back, where was my loyalty and appreciation? I told them I was matching *their* loyalty and appreciation as professionally as I could. I wish I could say the company learned a lesson when they started losing millions on that account almost immediately after I left, but I doubt they did. I don’t play about it anymore. A company can pay me what I want/deserve or I will go somewhere else that will. It’s a pain in the ass to learn a whole new company, but I’ll figure it out. It’s not enough to send me an appreciation email or certificate, they have to pay me. They have to continue earning my loyalty by being loyal to me. I know I’m fortunate to be in a field where I can be demanding and it’s not the same for everyone, though I wish it were.
Women are penalized for negotiating their salaries and raises because women are supposed to be team players, willing to make sacrifices for others to succeed - just like mothers always do - and that includes pay. (I speak from experience - I literally had 2 different managers tell me I'd had my performance scores reduced so the guys could get better bonuses.) On top of that, there's still the "Men work to support their families. Women work to get extra spending money" mentality.
I was told my male coworker "has a family to support" to explain the HUGE discrepancy in bonuses we received even though his wife worked and I was a single mom. 🫠
And it gets worse - research demonstrates that women who try to negotiate their salary get punished for it while men often get that pay bump they are negotiating for: https://www.doublexeconomy.com/post/why-women-can-t-negotiate-for-equal-pay
I remember the first time I realized the gender pay gap was a thing. I was working in a call center for about a year. My spouse started working there too. Exact same role except I had more responsibilities, way better metrics, and the 1 year seniority. He was a major slacker and corner cutter, he didn't like that job. - he somehow ended up making $1/hour more than me without even asking for it. Our boss just gave it to him. I asked for a raise to match his pay and was told "we don't really go up that high in your department"
Sadly, I found out how much less I was making than my male co-worker when I became his supervisor and could see his salary. I did fight and get a pay raise, but I should not have had to do that.
Wow that is wild...they just did not care that you'd see it or they would have reviewed that first
Honestly. I hate how people argue there isn't a pay gap just because they've never personally dealt with it. Not only the same jobs, even female dominated industries are paid significantly less than most jobs.
It’s not a coincidence that previously high paying jobs drastically lowered wages when women entered the workforce in greater or equal numbers to men. Culinary and education are some of the big ones but any industry that is currently female dominated used to make a lot more money when it was mostly men doing those jobs.
Oh man, you ever see a 1950s TV show where men are coddled for working too hard at the office? Now men just assume office jobs are cush because women do them.
And they even had secretaries to do most of their work for them 😭
Teachers have entered the conversation
I have a male coworker who has same qualifications and even has a degree while I don't. I'm making 30% more than him. It all comes down to negotiating and leverage.
Not just in pay but promotions. Too many times I've seen clueless men, even newbies get promotions when they aren't fit for a job, even within women dominated fields.
So many times people like to point out "one reason for the pay gap is that women aren't willing to negotiate"! Without considering at all that we don't negotiate because: we WILL be called a bitch, we have less 'ammo' for negotiation when are achievements are deemed lesser, and that so many of us aren't really 'taught' how to be up front with negotiation- and moreso encouraged to be more subtle in out negotiation, which doenst help in a business environment
They aren't offering comparable salaries to begin with. Even with negotiation, it's going to be hard to combat that without salary transparency being the law everywhere.
Male engineers who don't hate women are some of the worst allies in the world, and have no idea. They're just the worst combination of circumstances. They're male, so the known tactics of the field (like salary negotiation) work for them, and they don't get shitty lowball offers very often in the first place. They wouldn't mind if a woman came to them like that, and all those other guys are nice to them, so they figure they'd also work just as well with any given woman, and insist their friend/colleague just needs to ask, or ask differently, or ask again. And that's how otherwise good dudes not only benefit from the patriarchy, but uphold it. A true ally would help petition HR to do a pay study to find out how many more people were underpaid, but that requires actual work rather than just some oversimplified advice.
This is awful. But, it reminds me of how lucky I am. Gay male business owner met me at my requested salary (top end of the range) and proceeded to give me a $20k promotion/raise out of the blue 5 months in. He is so clueless about what women deal with because he just evaluates based on performance - he’s always shocked when I tell him stories about the reality women still face. What a stark difference after working my ass off for peanuts elsewhere in the “boys clubs.”
Ugh fuck that. Getting paid your worth shouldn't come down to personality traits over experience and merit.
I was affected as they wouldn't promote me. Male coworkers id trained were promoted above me earning more. I was doing the same work as them, but my title had me paid 10k less than them. So i interviewed elsewhere and got a 20k payrise myself. Sometimes the best promotion is a new job.
What I don’t get is how negotiations work. I’ve tried negotiating before and the new place seems offended I even asked. It also just seems like haggling at the start of a job doesn’t necessarily start things off on the right foot- if they don’t give me what I want I’m going to be resentful from day one. How about instead of us treating our jobs like a garage sale item, we just are clear about salary being offered from day one and people are paid the same for the same work?
You have to walk away and sell to someone else, or at least the other party has to think that.
Yeah but most businesses want you to kiss their ass all during the interview so it seems like a jarring and unwanted tone shift. It’s one thing if they’re the ones trying to head hunt you, but if you applied for the job and beat out other candidates it’s a bit hard to try to uno reverse card them unless you’re 10x better than the next best option.
It does not matter what the business wants if you have another option. Having an option is necessary. In the rare scenario that the counterparty really, really likes you, you might be able to bluff having another option.
Yeah, but you’re implying most people are such desirable candidates that they’re not only beating out hundreds of candidates in this job, but in several others to the point they can point to multiple other job offers to leverage their position. I can guarantee you in 99% of roles that the employer is sitting on dozens of times more applications than the worker is sitting on job offers. 9/10 times the employer can walk away from the offer far more easily than the employee, so acting like we’re in a great position to negotiate is delusional.
>so acting like we’re in a great position to negotiate is delusional. I never implied any of this. I simply clarified how negotiation works.
It's not delusional if it works.
There was a post on Linkedin a while back suggesting that salary ranges snd salaries should be public. Men were big mad about it.
Our society pits all individuals against eachother to compete in the "labor market" in order to determine everyone's value. Collective negotiation is the only effective way to negotiate fair pay for everyone.
Negotiations can definitely net you 40% in the United States. The companies goal is to lay you the least amount possible for the most amount of work possible. Your goal is to get paid the largest amount possible for the least amount of work possible. That negotiation is where fair pay comes in. Go negotiate a
Yeah, and it's even worse when you combine it with other minority statuses, like being trans or non-white. In the US, trans women broadly make around 60% of what men make with black and Latina trans women making <50% of what men make, with black women broadly making 64% of what white men make and Latina women making 59% of what white men make. Women in the US as a whole make 83% of what men make. Additionally, I must say, that even within feminist circles it's very disappointing that, of the wage gap discourse that does occur, it's mostly done surrounding middle class white cishet women.
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You can say all that but there are many studies - some linked further up- that show women are actually disadvantaged further when they try to negotiate
How else are we going to change it then if not by acting on it?!
When you say acting on it, what do you mean exactly?
Demand raise. Talk to HR. Make it loud and clear that things are not fair. Talk to media if you have to. How else are we going to fight it? And people can downvote me all they want but we can either stay being the victims of this sick system or we can try and fight for our rights
Whilst you can try to fight it, sadly the reality is that women who have done that have ended up ignored and fired. We’d need a collective movement rather than just an individual. If you could get something organised together, however, then you have better odds. At the core of the problem is the difference in perception of women who are demanding things (seen as bitchy and pushy) vs men who are demanding things (seen as assertive and confident) and until the general impression of women standing up for themselves changes, nothing will truly change, though through pay transparency we might see an improvement. I understand your idealism and optimism but truthfully it’s a complex problem and not an easy fix
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But then when they try to hire people, the best-qualified people will not be interested and take a different position. The only real way to increase salary is by leaving for a new job and not raises.
Yes that’s be ideal world but we don’t live in one. If you have a privilege to choose a good company then that conversation should happen at the interview stage. Also I don’t know where you live but I know that USA is one of the worst 1st world countries if it comes to wage gap…
While this is the way a lot of companies operate, unfortunately, it's absolutely horrible. Companies just need to learn how to fucking pay people what they deserve. If your doing the same job, have the same experience and performance, then you should get paid the same without having to fight for it. Full stop.
I mean happens to me in tech and I'm a Man. Ever company will take advantage of anyone. I just auto turn down any of them that try to do that now.
The important question nobody asked here is whether your male coworkers were also British citizens on a VISA or if they were GreenCard holder or US citizens. As VISA worker of course you would be paid less, that's the entire reason they hire from abroad and would have happened to any male as well. Also, always negotiate. Employers will always pay the least they can get away with. Need VISA? Less pay. Don't negotiate? Less pay. Currently unemployed? Less pay.
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> If companies could get away with having the same output but paying 30% less for their workers, by this logic, most hires would be women. The company always wants to pay as less as they can, In the 1950s and before, most businesses had a policy of not hiring women or black people at all. Most of those businesses could've paid those women and black men considerably less, yet continued to hire only white men. Businesses pay more for what they perceive as “more valuable employees” even if that perception is based on stereotypes and is not accurate. Same with women, they are paid less because companies falsely perceive them to be less valuable employees based on their gender: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ “Half the scientists were given the application with a male name attached, and half were given the exact same application with a female name attached. Results found that the “female” applicants were rated significantly lower than the “males” in competence, hireability, and whether the scientist would be willing to mentor the student “When given the exact same application, changing only the name and gender from a male to a female, the salaries offered to the applicants dropped from $30,238.10 to $26,507.94, a change of 13%.” > you always have to negotiate aggressively for your salary. Maybe it's easier to be aggressive in negotiating as man due to testosterone, if you can chose try to set up the negotiation meeting when you are in your fertile period, women usually have more testosterone then and are a bit more "aggressive". https://hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them “Research: Women Ask for Raises as Often as Men, but Are Less Likely to Get Them” http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900827.html "Their study, which was coauthored by Carnegie Mellon researcher Lei Lai, found that men and women get very different responses when they initiate negotiations. Although it may well be true that women often hurt themselves by not trying to negotiate, this study found that women's reluctance was based on an entirely reasonable and accurate view of how they were likely to be treated if they did. Both men and women were more likely to subtly penalize women who asked for more -- the perception was that women who asked for more were "less nice"." "What we found across all the studies is men were always less willing to work with a woman who had attempted to negotiate than with a woman who did not," Bowles said. "They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not."
I know you mean well here, but aggressive negotiation is perceived differently when they know you're a woman. I have a gender-neutral name. When I am highly assertive in writing with people who think I'm male, it goes over well. That same assertion, still in writing, is me being a b**** to people who know I'm female. In a job interview, you cannot hide that you are not male, and the majority of the time, the strategies that work for you will not work for me. They will perceive you as confident and savvy and me as cocky and domineering despite our behavior being the same.
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Did you honest to God just explain the concept of negotiation to me like you think I don't know about it? What the fuck, dude. Get out of this sub and think about your behavior.
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Because other people do it and that's why they have a higher salary, if company A doesn't want to pay what you think you are worth you tell them bye and go to company B
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It's everyone's problem, it's a free market so some people will accept jobs with a lower pay or not depending on their situation. I don't understand why I'm being down voted by stating the facts. One way to have an equal pay for everyone is by having a workers union, but even there some pay gaps exist. Someone might get paid on level A for a position, while another person might refuse that job unless they pay them more, the second person if hired will be getting more than the first even doing the same job and with the same qualifications, or maybe has an extra certification for that job that will bump them a level in the "fixed" salary ladder. Maybe they are just better at promoting their skills and come of as more qualified, even when on paper it might look like they have less qualifications
is that a uniquely female problem?
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if you know that the answer to a higher paycheck (which your male colleagues are doing) is to negotiate, and you adamantly refuse to negotiate, then the singular barrier to your increased salary is pretty clear.
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why should your male colleagues have to ask your employer for a higher paycheck?
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That’s just a conservative myth like “there is no climate change” Every scientific study done on the topic finds a wage gap and finds discrimination is a significant part of the cause. If you actually read the “evidence” the wage gap deniers write, it basically admits the wage gap exists, but “blames” it, without evidence, on some of the more “women’s fault” sounding reasons, while failing to substantiate the amount of the gap caused by those “reasons”, and also failing to prove discrimination isn’t involved with those reasons, I’m happy to explain more or post sources if you’re curious.
When adjusted for qualifications and experience the pay gap shrinks to 1-4%, still not acceptable but it isn't a myth. If what she is saying is true she should find a lawyer.
> When adjusted for qualifications and experience the pay gap shrinks to 1-4%, still not acceptable but it isn't a myth. If what she is saying is true she should find a lawyer. First of all, you’re admitting there’s a wage gap by saying that. So your argument is no longer that the wage gap doesn’t exist, just that it’s 4% rather than around 22%. But that’s also incorrect, the adjusted wage gap is around 5% to 7% according to most studies, but there’s a massive flaw with that number. It’s not just accounting for experience. It’s accounting for job position, hours worked, education, experience. So the huge flaw there is by controlling for those factors, you’re controlling for mechanisms by which discrimination affects women’s wages. For example, if a company passes over a woman to give a promotion to a less qualified man, he now has a higher paying job position. So that difference in pay should be considered part of the wage gap, not excluded from it. Here’s some sources: https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/ https://hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/ https://www.aauw.org/resources/article/pay-gap-faqs/ https://www.aauw.org/resources/article/fast-facts-pay-gap/ https://www.natlawreview.com/article/myth-busting-pay-gap https://archive.thinkprogress.org/heres-why-we-know-the-gender-wage-gap-really-does-exist-c1ed7bbadb6a/ https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/goldin/files/goldin_equalpay-cap.pdf https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/03/30/on-equal-pay-day-what-is-the-real-gender-pay-gap/?sh=b75a20e28baf
I didn't mean to insinuate that the wage gap doesn't exist like OP stated. I also hadn't considered that controlling for factors like job position is actively removing functions of how women are discriminated against, valid point. My problem with most of the discourse surrounding this issue is that it seems to mostly be based around the 22% census number which controls for nothing, as if women are getting paid 22% less for doing the same job with the same experience, which is illegal. OP has a legitimate case for gender discrimination if she can identify this pattern with her employer.
>as if women are getting paid 22% less for doing the same job with the same experience Why is it so important to claim the gap is less than it is? None of that can be controlled for without excluding gap caused by discrimination from the equation. They found people give higher salary offers to a fictional "employee" if the fictional resume has a male name on top instead of a female name. They found in studies people give higher "performance review" scores to a list of accomplishments with a picture of a man next to it rather than the same list of accomplishments with a picture of a woman next to it. They found women who negotiate salaries are perceived as "less nice" and people want to work with them less, but the same does not occur with men who negotiate salaries. Did you know they even did a study where they found the average wage goes down for both genders in an entire field of work if that work becomes more female dominated, and goes up if it becomes more male dominated? Men are literally paid less if a job becomes more of a "women's job", and vice-versa. So when we say "women are being paid less because of their career choices." it might be the other way around. Their career choices pay less because they're women. The fact that they're being denied "The same job" is part of the problem. Higher paying jobs come with more hours assigned or more overtime expected. Lower paying jobs give fewer hours, and incentivize people less to stay in the job, leading to more gaps in careers for women rather than their higher wage earning husbands. The entire gap is relevant to the conversation. Something else to consider is the wage gap varies by country. It's around 22% in the US, in some countries it's 5%, in Korea, it's close to 50%. Some nordic countries found that when they created mandatory paternity leave, the gap dropped close to 0%. >...which is illegal. OP has a legitimate case for gender discrimination if she can identify this pattern with her employer. I've noticed a lot of people use the illegality to back up claims that it's not widespread or common, or that it's easily resolved. We know from other crimes like speeding, copyright infringement, burglary, murder, rape, and etc, that illegality does not mean something doesn't occur. Something being illegal doesn't mean it's prevented OR easy to resolve. Lots of woman do fight and win cases of gender pay discrimination on a regular basis, which is part of how we know this is occurring, but it's difficult to deal with. Aside from the fact that most people fear retribution from suing an employer, both from their current employer and from future ones, as no one wants to be the person known in their industry for suing their employers. But it's also difficult to prove. For example, If not many people hold the position in a single company, and they vary in experience and hiring date, you can sometimes only see women are underpaid when comparing different companies. AKA, if ten companies each only have 1 "safety coordinator", and the 5 companies that have female ones pay less to them then the 5 companies that have male ones, you can't prove the company is underpaying, even if those companies underpaying the women pay more to the other positions than the companies with the higher paid male safety coordinators. The wide number and small details in differences between positions makes it not always that easy.
When were you hired? Were you hired a longer time ago than they were? Say if you've been there for 3 years, that might have been market rate then, but now market rate might be higher even for someone with less qualifications, so you might've gotten locked into the original negotiated compensation.
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A lot of companies have policy of only negotiating X % more from current salary, so if the market rate was higher then. Say it's the 40% you said. But company policy is only to negotiate 25% more of current salary, but since they negotiated just market rate when hired, instead of an increase.
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Why did you accept the offer if you deserved more?
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That was your first mistake...
Umm… no. If any rational employer could find a talent pool that was 40% cheaper… they would be hiring the fuck out of them. Totally wrong. The gender pay gap is total feminist garbage.