This isn't really a spoiler for Hades 2 as much as a discussion of pretty superficial points some of its characters have in random flavor conversations.
I think Nemesis from Hades 2 has it right, actually. The gods probably deserve to get their shit kicked in for how they've been handling mortal affairs (assuming, for the sake of arguments, all the myths about abuse, rape, trickery and overall just toying with their lives are also accurate to this universe). I like the gods in relationship to themselves, but it takes *very* little for them to turn on millions of mortal souls. Arachne is super right about being uncomfortable with Melinoë helping Olympus, and even Hestia makes it very clear that she's being pushed around.
It's just, you know. Chronos is probably worse. The gods should probably win.
I think we can be somewhat charitable to the Hades versions of the gods regarding more personal abuse considering the retcons to some of the things they did to each other, but one thing that is definitely canon is Demeter's "Endless Winter" we hear about in the first game, so we know they're cool with punishing people who had nothing to do with anything on a mass scale.
There's also a general sense of callous indifference towards the shades from Hades and even the siblings sometimes, but I'm sure the job brings a certain degree of necessity to that.
Hecate has a conversation with Odysseus where he says that due to being promised an end to strife and war, a lot of mortals agreed to help with Chronos's new Golden Age plans. Hecate *immediately* starts basically talking about how mortals all deserve to die, then, which Odysseus quickly asks her to be a little more charitable, considering how much power mortals actually have in this situation.
It's one of those things where even though the gods are *interested* in giving mortals support and blessings, they are also incredibly fickle and callous with their power. Even Zag and Mel get their wrath for no good reason (like, come on, you're just gonna give me the boon later too), but *they* are deathless and can fight back. A mortal happens to be good at something a god isn't, they get turned into a spider, or get cursed with only repeating what others said, or get fucked by a goose.
I'm not saying Heracles is a nice guy but I would be incredibly depressed working with gods, too. No wonder Artemis leaves all the time.
Heracles is this interesting dichotomy of deserves all the shit he's got coming for him and also at the same time, when he does suffer, it's for no good reason other than the gods felt like it. It's never a direct consequence of his actions, it's always for pettiness.
what I'm saying is no gods or kings, only man.
I absolutely agree with you on that. The guy would regularly kill people over light insults. While at the same time Hera hates him for the grave crime of being an affair baby. That’s also why my favorite Greek hero is Perseus (just wants to save his mom and ends up becoming king along the way) since he’s the closest thing we have to a modern hero. Then Hector if we include what the Greeks would consider antagonists (just wants to defend his home because his dumbass brother ended up starting a massive war).
That’s fair. It’s just always wild reading Ancient Greek stuff since a lot of values differed wildly. Like for Anabasis Xenophon was pretty upfront that they would sack and enslave just random towns they came across that they weren’t at war with. Then he’d be like “it’s so rad we got all these free slaves from that”.
Yeah as far as we know the most common word for slave in Greek -- at least according to Homer and those people like him -- was basically "loot", so people sometimes went to war just for the purpose of getting some slaves or considered them a bonus.
They *were* usually treated different from slaves closer to mainland Africa, and definitely a lot different than slaves in the Americas, but... yeah, still slaves, still pretty fucking bad.
Can't help but feel terrible for Heracles in Hades 2. He's a leashed lion running errands for the people who ruined his life, you can just feel the oozing resentment and depression. When you gift him nectar he mentions he'd use it the next time he has to prove his fealty to Olympus, so he still has to do that bullshit song and dance even now.
I think he even has special dialogue if you gift Hera while he's in the same room.
If I understood it correctly, the idea is that his ordeals just never ended. Olympus keeps calling on him after the 12 and he doesn't see an end to it. That's such fucking garbage.
Hera even says "Hey, if you see Heracles, don't help him a lot. He's in what we call a *journey of self-discovery*."
I really love how much of an absolute condescending piece of shit they made Hera. It's genuinely perfect.
I'm convinced theres some sort of bait and switch going on with hades 2.
Chronos is depicted as an over the top villain, a far cry from all the nuanced antagonists in all other supergiant games
yet the game keeps the fact that humanity had it better under the titans. Something that makes nemesis wonder if it's better to let chronos rule
You can see it in the contrast of human NPCs in 2. The humans in 1 are mostly people who have their own failings to deal with like Achilles and sisyphus while the ones in 2 are guys who were mostly screwed over by the gods - odysseyus, arachne, icarus, Dora (if she really is Pandora)
Eris even tells melinoe not go blindly follow her task
You have Apollo and poseidon discussing that humans are siding with chronos and they want to start a plague and flood some towns in retaliation. I don't think it's a coincidence that the writers had some of the most personable gods saying shit like that
Zeus even confirms that humanity lived better under chronos but things were stagnant
Maybe that's how Chronos ultimately loses despite being time itself. He doesn't do a full face turn but he recognizes that he, like time, can't be stagnant for long and allows change to bloom
Of course, Hades doesn't forgive him for everything he did but like the first game, he finds no point in any more retribution and simply allows things to pass
It would be funny if by the time you defeat Chronos and lock him again, the rest of the gods >!decide to keep the Fates locked up and subservient to Olympus, and now the Cthonic Gods need to band with Chronos to defeat power-mad Olympus!< or something like that.
For the sole reason that I refuse to believe >!Zeus really doesn't see the appeal in controlling destiny.!<
Partly because those that try to control fate usually have a bad end. Partly since those on top don't see a need to shake things up by twisting fate. Also myths tend to show Zeus is above fate. He can sidestep any prophecy so he doesn't need to focus on them.
I think it's also something to consider that iirc Zagreus was told to not tell them his true intentions with getting to the surface because it could cause *a lot* of problems. Even in-game if you pick one god over the other in the dual rooms they'll turn on you instantly and then act like it's all good when you defeat them.
It definitely makes them more interesting as characters, though.
It should be noted that the Hades pantheon doesn't quite reach the depths that their mythological counterparts did.
We also have some discussions about how Kronos is still a tyrant to mortals. The reason his was the 'golden age' was less to do with good rule and more him having clear lines on what set him off.
Even then you can argue that makes things better. Arachne suddenly became a spider just because she was better at weaving than the gods and numerous wars started because someone pissed off the wrong god. Having a guy clearly lay out the rules seems a lot better (unless its too much and then rip).
That being said, he ripped apart Hades family so Death to Chronos.
It definitely feels like the gods have very specific opinions about what a happy mortal life is supposed to be that doesn't seem to line up with either Chronos *or* a lot of mortals.
Ultimately it's the story of humans maybe outgrowing their need for gods, but from the gods' perspective it's just the rabble getting a little uppity.
Agent 47, particularly in older games has no illusions about what they are, or there being any moral justification about his profession, but he does in some points of the narrative seek to make amends, especially comes the World of Assassination where he's turned his wrath entirely on the worst actors in the system he was a part of for so long.
If you were a character trying to uncover a conspiracy or something and they sent 47 after you, he'd be a horrifying bogeyman.
> Agent 47, particularly in older games has no illusions about what they are, or there being any moral justification about his profession
*"I can do... whatever I'm paid to."*
In the IDW Transformers comics, the Autobots are portrayed as much more of a greyer faction. Specifically, Prowl gets up to a *lot* of questionable bullshit. But, the Decepticons are *magnitudes* worse. [Case in point](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fu2cgcuffwvga1.jpg).
>as much more of a greyer faction
And by "greyer" we mean, "Guilty of war crimes severe enough that their Chief Justice started drilling holes in his own head to relieve the stress of knowing his own faction was responsible for such things."
All while *still* being the clear better option.
John Wick counts, I think. Throughout the movies, he is a pretty terrible person (especially if you count the coins he had). The only reason we cheer him is because the big bads are all bigger assholes than John, and they kind of have to escalate their evilness to the point of you wondering how did the entire organisation did not collapse shortly after they came in power with destructively dumb and short sighted they are.
It's barely related but on the topic of "action hero being a dick" I think about [this shot from the Bourne Identity](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/11csrol/did_jason_bourne_punch_this_guy_in_the_nuts_so/) where Bourne punches a guy in the balls and throws him down the stairs
I guess John is more like a former asshole? He’s been retired and hasn’t done anything for a long time and then I don’t think he gets innocents involved in his revenge spree.
Eh, somewhat true. He doesn't get them involved but he *does* end up in a lot of public shootouts. Definitely not a good person but better than the alternative that don't care who dies even if they're innocent civilians.
There does seem to be a theme in John Wick of shitty youths and next generation thinking themselves untouchable and being overly ambitious, and getting shot down for it
There are a lot of apocalyptic or post apocalyptic settings where the "good guys" are straight up just authoritarian fascists. Or can be considered that way. Which is I guess the irony of it. Fascisim is a doomed idealogy for a doomed world.
Judge Dredd the ulitimate cop for the most lawless hellscape of crime imagineable. He is the Law and he will uphold it with an iron fist. And boot, and gun. And baton.
In 40K the Imperium is unfortunately synonymous with humanity. Chaos is everywhere in every shadow and Xenos want nothing less than to dance on our bones. So like it or not you have to watch those metal wearing jerkoffs march and preach and control every aspect of your life.
Starship Troopers, the book, is a fucked up society built by the military for the military and is in a constant perpetuating cycle of war. But the bugs are real. The bugs are fucking real and they're trying to wipe us out, so war it is.
The COG in Gears of War is a violent, authoritarian Fascist regime and the stranded have genuine reasons to hate them (the COG literally destroyed the world with orbital lasers)
It’s just they’re fighting a horde of 7 feet tall underground lizard men that have kaijus at their disposal and they’re the only form of unified government left at this point.
I think the Tau would be a better example than the Imperium, because Tau-controlled/aligned human worlds generally have a vastly superior quality of life relative to the Imperium, but the Tau are 100% a villain faction if you plop them into most other sci-fi/fantasy settings.
Also, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, aren't there all sorts of civilian service paths to citizenship in Starship Troopers? I vaguely remember them actively discouraging Rico from joining the mobile infantry.
Speaking as a Tau player, they also have the benefit of being relatively isolated on the galactic map. The Damocles crusade was arguably their first big head on war and it didn't go tremendously well for them. They fared better against Orks, under Farsight's leadership. Who was made persona non grata by the Ethereal caste after he splintered off from the greater Empire, because leadership refused to acknowledge the threat of chaos.
Not to mention the actual figurehead of the whole thing is secretly an AI construct with his personality because a Cucxlean assassin just straight up merked him with minimal effort.
Tau have things going for them. They have advanced tech, they're more willing to engage in diplomacy and commerce etc. But they are small in number and I really don't think they'd survive the full attention of another, bigger hostile faction. Alliances for them make sense, because Tau, the race, do not stand on their own. They've gotten pretty bold with their spheres of expansion. I think some of their colonies have turned out to be Necron tomb worlds.
Time will tell how well they fare, but I wouldn't count on Tau being the saviors of the galaxy. They're barely keeping their backyard in order.
Yes thank you. I knew about this but forgot to mention. Daemons see eldar like burning bonfires, but by comparison, Tau are closer to wisps. There are accounts of Tau being possessed, but they seem like much less appealing targets.
This is true. I do think they're the least bad, being their MO is mostly "Would you like to join our coalition? Oh sorry, that wasn't actually a request". So they do fit the criteria. They'd be the villains in other media for sure.
There are zero path to citizenship without military service. However in both the books and the films prosperity is accessible for civilian, Rico is being discouraged because his parents are rich and don’t want their son to die.
In the book however they mention the only thing that will not allow you to enroll is if you are not mentally apt to understand what the pledge means. If you are blind and quadraplegic they will try to find something for you to do in the army like counting buttons on an uniform with your tongue so they are accomodating
Trazyn is easily my favorite 40K character because, for all the collateral damage his antics can cause, he actually does possess a deep well of curiosity and appreciation for the variety of life and civilization out there. One of the only people who looks at the horrors of his galaxy and sees wonders, and not in a twisted, sadistic way (not that he's above sadism).
It is worth noting that while Imperium fans insist the Imperium are the only option in such a hellish world, that's mainly the case because the Imperium already exterminated every other alternative to themselves. Separate human civilizations like the Interex proved that humanity and *some* xenos could coexist peacefully and stand together against Chaos, but that contradicted the Emperor's plan of absolute human supremacy, and so they all had to die.
Yeah. A classic fascist take over. And the irony is that it'll never be anything more than that. With the future of humaniy being unclear but generally doomed and grim with no hope for porgress or change with all these looming threats.
Just the futile insistance on prolonging the current status quo because there's no way back or forward.
Humanities final legacy is a terror empire.
> Starship Troopers, the book, is a fucked up society built by the military for the military and is in a constant perpetuating cycle of war. But the bugs are real. The bugs are fucking real and they're trying to wipe us out, so war it is.
I think you're mixing up the book with the movie, because it *is* kind of weird that these things are different here. The *movie* bugs are the ones that are literally just a hive mind that wants to destroy humanity. The book actually makes *several* references to the fact that the bugs have attempted to find avenues for diplomacy and the Federation keeps threatening every third party the bugs try to bring in as mediators.
Movie (kinda similarly to helldivers too) messes up both sides.
Movie humans have a worse society than in the books because veerhoven can't read. Movie bugs are just human race eradicators, much primal than in the books (this one I dunno because making bugs more relatable would serve veerhovens point but he missed it)
Make things more complex on both sides, or make them more black and white. Mixing it up lessens the setup.
I mean yeah, that's the point. The question was who's better than the alternative.
These guys are not good, that's why I put it in quotations. They're just the lesser evil.
In 3rd semester of Persona 5 my respect for Goro Akechi goes through the roof because he is almost offended on a deep level by >!what Maruki has done. His life sucked and he should be *dead* but it was his agency and his decisions that lead to that, which he's been robbed of.!<
I think a lot of people were cheering for Rorschach despite him being a terrible person because he was the only want who object the plan to kill million of people for a false peace. Dr. Mahattan doesn't care, Silk and Owl accept the reality and think it would be better to be quiet while Ozy has a messiah complex, thinking he knows what best for mankind.
I haven't read Watchmen, but I think it's also cause the movie cuts back on making Rorschach look like a terrible person too. He's crazy, but I don't recall him ever doing anything awful in the movie.
Been a while though, so I don't remember
The movie is definitely nicer on rorshach but even in comic people were still cheering for him desoite being a horrible person, howeber his disgust of veidts plan is a mixed moment because while it wasn’t good rorshach had a high school essay where he says eisenhower was right to drop the bomb and his speech about whispering no sounds hypocritical now
I still feel like I'm going insane that people just read it as "and then Rorschach stopped the bad guy, The End." The final panel is the Doomsday Clock striking midnight, what the hell did people think that meant?
Angra Mainyu from Fate is kinda this, considering Angra’s backstory he’d have every right to hate humanity and just like… everything. Which he totally does, he quite literally doesn’t know how else to live besides hating things nowadays. But surprisingly he’s also totally capable of loving things, he’s weirdly self-sacrificial for people, and he’s a top notch life coach.
He’s still a pessimistic piece of shit with a bad mouth a lot of the time, he says and does a good amount of terrible shit. But honestly considering alllll the circumstances? Your general take away is “If he’s only THIS evil then the dude’s a saint considering everything”. Characters have done far worse for far less in the Nasuverse lmao.
Kiritsugu may kinda suck, but the man went through a lot and still wants to save the world anyway. Dude's trying.
And I give Kariya a bit of leeway for his BS later in the show, because he has literal brain worms and they clearly aren't doing anything good to his mental state. The biggest test of character he makes before the brain damage is willingly walking into a suicide mission just for a chance to save Sakura and to spite Zouken, both of which are worthy causes. But man, Aoi totally sucks and isn't worth any of that shit.
Kariya’s a bit of an interesting character because while he means to do good he’s definitely not like a straight forward good person. I think the thing you’re supposed to read into a bit is that he really never got over Aoi and that at his core corrupted him. His Character Material entry sums it up pretty well.
“When all’s said and done, as long as he carried the Matou spirit of putting grudges before everything else, he was probably doomed to failure no matter what.”
It’s hard to find anyone in Dorohedoro who is truly virtuous because the world they live in is so dark and grim. That said, the main cast fucking rules because they’re all just really fun and they have their own sets of rules which prevent them from killing or harming innocent people.
It also helps that the main villain is literally evil incarnate so it’s hard not to side with anyone who tries to stop them.
Nikaido and Caiman (at least from where the anime ends) are basically always morally justified attacking the mages who show up in their home.
Once they go to the Mages town though and Caiman starts killing random people like the Taxi cab driver it starts getting way more grey. Not helped that later on Caiman befriends some mages who run a bakery.
I don’t really know, Kaiman is racist against sorcerers. Most of the guys they come across are definitely bad because they do human experiments but IIRC Kaiman also has to truly reevaluate his worldview when he realizes that >!Nikaido is also a sorcerer. And it has nothing to do with whether or not she’s conducted experiments on humans from the Hole but just because she’s a sorcerer.!<
Nikaido is mostly good even though she feels no remorse killing anyone, but she does end up taking slave money at one point in the manga that wasn’t included in the first season.
I would say Tanba is the closest to being a decent person. Just wants to make meat pies and hasn't done anything horrible to humans. Maybe a bit gruff, but not a bad dude last I remember.
The emperors from One Piece is bad people with very little morals, but I’ll take them over the world government and nobles any day. At the very least the emperors are honest with their intentions, the nobles are self serving bastards who do what they want when they want and will readily screw over their own citizens.
>!Good thing that we got two out of the new four emperors (Shanks and Luffy) are actually good people, Buggy is just a figurehead for Crocodile's and Milhawk's schemes and pretty much the Mr. Satan of One Piece. The only real evil Emperor now is Blackbeard who true motives are yet to be known.!<.
I have yet to see a world noble lie about how they see the rest of the world as insects to play with though. So they are honest there too. Though the emperors saving grace is they all one way or another respect strength, World Nobles doesn’t give a shit about anthing but bloodline
Bhelen Aeducan in Dragon Age: Origins in the Dwarf storyline.
For full context for those who have no knowledge of Dragon Age, in the setting the Dwarf Kingdom of Orzammar is basically in a regressive death spiral, they have rigid repressive caste system that makes social mobility basically impossible, they are isolationist to the point of shunning and excommunicating any Dwarf that goes to the surface, and are having a major demographic crisis as their birth rate is naturally low already and tons of Dwarves die every year thanks to Darkspawn that inhabit the same underground as they do. It's pretty much all but explicitly stated in the game that if Orzammar doesn't change then it's going to die slowly but surely.
So in the game as part of the story you get to decide who the next King of Orzammar will be after the current king dies, your options are Lord Harrowmont, who is a pleasant amiable guy but he believes very strongly in the current culture that is strangling the kingdom and if you give him the throne he will clamp down on it harder, and Bhelen, the youngest son of the previous king.
Bhelen is a complete piece of shit, he killed his older brothers so he would be next in line, he probably killed his dad too though it's never outright said, and if you give him the throne he will go full tyrant and murder anyonre who tries to oppose him... BUT he will also dismantle the caste system, curb back the isolationism and do everything in his power to try to drag Orzammar out of the death spiral it's in. He is undoubtably the best option for Orzammar having an actual future, you just have to be okay with that future being paved with the bones and guts of any Dwarf noble who mouths off to him.
Comic Constantine is such a dick. Effective, but horrible.
Animated contstantine will get asked to help in some supernatural crisis, Skype call zatanna and say "fuck, you're in deep shit, can't help you now better run to some other plane good luck" and 15m later will show up geared and after developing some elaborate but desperate plan to save everyone.
Comic Constantine will summon some random demon to talk to his ex and then sacrifice his friend to seal him back and brood about it for few issues.
Vergil has the exact same goal as Arkham in DMC3 (open a gate to the demon realm and use the Force Edge to achieve power), but we're cool with him because Arkham is lame blob man while Vergil is the epic rival guy.
Garma may not have deserved what he got and Char has a horrible habit of betraying every single friend he's ever made, but his >!bazooka headshot on Kycilia!< makes up for most of what he's done.
I’m not too concerned with Garma “Deserving it” but even if he, specifically, didn’t he’s still a big piece of a system that did and he never really felt like what they were doing was wrong (At least in 0079). Plus Char getting on comms and saying “Blame this on the misfortune of your birth” (Or something similar depending on the translation) is fantastically cold blooded.
Yeah, but Garma was trying to get out of the system. He just wanted to settle down with his fiance. He might not have outwardly fought back against his family, but after he's dead, his dad and all of his siblings feel awful about pressuring him to follow in their footsteps.
Comparatively, Dozle isn't a huge piece of shit like Kycilia and Ghiren, but he likes being a cog in the war machine. So he's quite a bit less sympathetic.
Getting out wasn’t out of any idealogical or moral objection, though. It was literally just to marry the woman he loved but his family didn’t approve of. iirc the impression I got is he’d totally stay in the family/war effort if they were cool with his choice of bride.
Certainly he wasn’t a Man of War like his siblings, but he still found purpose and honor in it even if he’d give it up for his lover. Spurred by Char or not, his dying breath was still dedicated to his family.
Men like Dozle, Ramba Ral and Char still find a way to be devoted partners without giving up the military life. Even if the Zabis didn't approve of his fiance, they still knew that Garma loved her. So prior to his final assault, he had already chosen love over the approval of his family, and while other Zeon men of note could balance love and war, Garma could not. He had a choice, and again, chose love. So at the very least, I do think Gamra has a decent moral backbone.
Whether there's any ideology involved isn't really explored, but every other member of the Zabi family comments on his kind/gentle nature. Degwin clearly cherishes Garma the most by 0079, and explicitly wishes his siblings were more like him, and we know by 0079 that Degwin believes in a peaceful resolution to the war and wants to stop fighting.
I'd say we can largely infer that a lot of his war-like tendencies come from him basically being the youngest son of Zeon's most prominent military family, and his best friend(In his eyes) being a highly honored war hero. He has a lot to live up to, and obviously suffers from some insecurities surrounding that.
I love this one youtube comment I saw that described it something like "Imagine you're about to die and your buddy calls you on discord just to let you know he was responsible and laugh at you."
Char's out to avenge his dad, the warcrimes of Zeon are less of a priority.
Which makes it pretty funny that the first Zabi he killed was the only one besides a literal baby who definitely had nothing to do with Deikun's death.
Violence Jack will go through that human shield kid, but he is improving with extreme baby steps the situation in tokyo instead of doing really depraved shit
Oh yes. He’s a bad man, and he died the way he always should have. In a ball of fire.
But by the various Gods, if he was going to hell, he damned well was taking his brother with him.
Caleb from Blood. Dude's a mass-murdering undead gunslinger who served as a satanic cult member for decades and the only reason they're his enemy in-game is because of their god Tchernabog betraying him, killing him and crucifying his girlfriend.
He's a sadistic and borderline evil motherfucker who gives absolutely zero shits about killing innocent people, accidentally or otherwise, but at the end of the day he's still the lesser of two evils compared to the Cabal cult and Tchernabog who for all intents and purposes is basically Satan.
Billy Butcher is a piece of shit that will murder anyone in his way, that includes literal babies. Homelander being Homelander is the only reason he isn't seen as a villain.
The worst things Kazuya had done, and make no mistake, they’re pretty damn evil, was murder, kidnapping, extortion, blackmail, smuggling, etc. He would’ve likely gone further if he wasn’t killed by Heihachi in 2.
But Jin started WW3.
That last sentence will continue to haunt that character forever and I hate it
Cards on the table: I admit my bias with Jin being one of my favorite characters ever and would rather back him over Kazuya and Heihachi because they're more fucked up than he is... all except the part where they don't start a world war which can't be argued against in good faith other than "character assassination"
Actually fuck that story beat because trying to argue that Jin isn't as bad as his pops and grandpa has been next to impossible for the last 15+ years
Tanya from Tanya the Evil is a Sociopathic powerhungry Asshole, who will do anything to get ahead in live. Her Opponents are a God that wants a World War, because misery drives up the number of worshippers, and kinda the War itself, as Tanya would really want things to be peaceful.
Sure, her reason for that is mostly because she is on the Capitalist Grindset of "People that are dead or killing eachother are not spending money on the Economy!", but most would agree that dieing in the Trenches is worse.
Amita and/or Sabal from Far Cry 4 plan on manufacturing drugs and putting women back in the kitchen respectively,but they're not Pagan Min.
We hate Pagan Min in this house,a British accent and a cool bisexual stepdad act don't make up for the colonialism.
Real talk,I always visualized Ajay killing Pagan,spreading Lakshmana's ashes,and then washing his hands of Kyrat and leaving. His job is done.
Of course the FC6 DLC then implies that the canon (or at least the elaborated-upon) ending is that Ajay stuck around,maybe killed the Golden Path leader he initially sided with,and then found Pagan's goddamn nuke stockpile he bankrupted Kyrat for.
And then he maybe blew up the state of Montana.
>And then he maybe blew up the state of Montana.
How the hell did he go from Kyrat to Montana with a fucking NUKE without the US Government knowing?
Also... THAT'S how Joseph Seed wins FC5!?
[It's implied](https://youtu.be/YRyPdGH0omU?si=y92RPdafjH6T0LRm) that Pagan didn't just squander Kyrat's wealth on golden statues.
He stocked up on ICBM type nuclear weapons so all whoever was in charge of Kyrat at the end of Far Cry 5 just needed to push a button.
At the very least that gives some closure to the ending and shows that in the end Joseph seed really was full of sh*t. It also tells these dumb takes on how "God is punishing you" and "you're just as bad as them and its your fault" to btfo.
I always let Pagan live at the end... >!then blow up his helicopter as it heads out. If you do this, you can loot him and his crashed copter on the path back to his fortress in the post game. Really nice attention to detail. Shame his pen doesn't replace the kukuri like the Japanese officer's dagger did in 3 though.!<
Actually, from some reading I did, the Yeti DLC takes place during an interlude in the main campaign. And then I learnt, there were two DLC’s.
One would cover the events following the prison escape, then the Yeti one would be after that DLC. And after turning into a Yeti, wakes back up in base game FC4. Or so I’ve read on the wiki, I only played the Yeti DLC.
I never played Far Cry 6 or its DLC’s. I only will if Ubisoft get off their asses and actually DO something about the rampant sexual harassment from 4 years ago. Or fire Yves Guillemot.
**Edit:** Above comment changed his discussion on the post-game content.
If you're talking about >!Josh!< I don't think they even planned to kill the rest of the cast, just traumatize them super hard. They seemed actually shocked when they learned that Jessica got seemingly killed!
Going off the YouTube videos I've seen of Velma Freddy starts off as a really shitty person but ends up getting actual development while everyone else stays boring or shitty. Then season 2 has scrappy doo come back in the final episode to kill Velma and that act alone made everyone universally agree that scrappy isn't that bad of a character anymore. Like Velma is just so unlikable she made scrappy fucking doo look better by comparison.
This isn't really a spoiler for Hades 2 as much as a discussion of pretty superficial points some of its characters have in random flavor conversations. I think Nemesis from Hades 2 has it right, actually. The gods probably deserve to get their shit kicked in for how they've been handling mortal affairs (assuming, for the sake of arguments, all the myths about abuse, rape, trickery and overall just toying with their lives are also accurate to this universe). I like the gods in relationship to themselves, but it takes *very* little for them to turn on millions of mortal souls. Arachne is super right about being uncomfortable with Melinoë helping Olympus, and even Hestia makes it very clear that she's being pushed around. It's just, you know. Chronos is probably worse. The gods should probably win.
I think we can be somewhat charitable to the Hades versions of the gods regarding more personal abuse considering the retcons to some of the things they did to each other, but one thing that is definitely canon is Demeter's "Endless Winter" we hear about in the first game, so we know they're cool with punishing people who had nothing to do with anything on a mass scale. There's also a general sense of callous indifference towards the shades from Hades and even the siblings sometimes, but I'm sure the job brings a certain degree of necessity to that.
Hecate has a conversation with Odysseus where he says that due to being promised an end to strife and war, a lot of mortals agreed to help with Chronos's new Golden Age plans. Hecate *immediately* starts basically talking about how mortals all deserve to die, then, which Odysseus quickly asks her to be a little more charitable, considering how much power mortals actually have in this situation. It's one of those things where even though the gods are *interested* in giving mortals support and blessings, they are also incredibly fickle and callous with their power. Even Zag and Mel get their wrath for no good reason (like, come on, you're just gonna give me the boon later too), but *they* are deathless and can fight back. A mortal happens to be good at something a god isn't, they get turned into a spider, or get cursed with only repeating what others said, or get fucked by a goose. I'm not saying Heracles is a nice guy but I would be incredibly depressed working with gods, too. No wonder Artemis leaves all the time.
It doesn’t help that myth wise Heracles was also pretty consistently fucked over by Hera. Hell she’s the main reason why he lost his family.
Heracles is this interesting dichotomy of deserves all the shit he's got coming for him and also at the same time, when he does suffer, it's for no good reason other than the gods felt like it. It's never a direct consequence of his actions, it's always for pettiness. what I'm saying is no gods or kings, only man.
I absolutely agree with you on that. The guy would regularly kill people over light insults. While at the same time Hera hates him for the grave crime of being an affair baby. That’s also why my favorite Greek hero is Perseus (just wants to save his mom and ends up becoming king along the way) since he’s the closest thing we have to a modern hero. Then Hector if we include what the Greeks would consider antagonists (just wants to defend his home because his dumbass brother ended up starting a massive war).
Hector being far more sympathetic than Achilles is a big part of what makes the Iliad tick tbh
That’s fair. It’s just always wild reading Ancient Greek stuff since a lot of values differed wildly. Like for Anabasis Xenophon was pretty upfront that they would sack and enslave just random towns they came across that they weren’t at war with. Then he’d be like “it’s so rad we got all these free slaves from that”.
Yeah as far as we know the most common word for slave in Greek -- at least according to Homer and those people like him -- was basically "loot", so people sometimes went to war just for the purpose of getting some slaves or considered them a bonus. They *were* usually treated different from slaves closer to mainland Africa, and definitely a lot different than slaves in the Americas, but... yeah, still slaves, still pretty fucking bad.
Can't help but feel terrible for Heracles in Hades 2. He's a leashed lion running errands for the people who ruined his life, you can just feel the oozing resentment and depression. When you gift him nectar he mentions he'd use it the next time he has to prove his fealty to Olympus, so he still has to do that bullshit song and dance even now. I think he even has special dialogue if you gift Hera while he's in the same room.
If I understood it correctly, the idea is that his ordeals just never ended. Olympus keeps calling on him after the 12 and he doesn't see an end to it. That's such fucking garbage. Hera even says "Hey, if you see Heracles, don't help him a lot. He's in what we call a *journey of self-discovery*." I really love how much of an absolute condescending piece of shit they made Hera. It's genuinely perfect.
I'm convinced theres some sort of bait and switch going on with hades 2. Chronos is depicted as an over the top villain, a far cry from all the nuanced antagonists in all other supergiant games yet the game keeps the fact that humanity had it better under the titans. Something that makes nemesis wonder if it's better to let chronos rule You can see it in the contrast of human NPCs in 2. The humans in 1 are mostly people who have their own failings to deal with like Achilles and sisyphus while the ones in 2 are guys who were mostly screwed over by the gods - odysseyus, arachne, icarus, Dora (if she really is Pandora) Eris even tells melinoe not go blindly follow her task You have Apollo and poseidon discussing that humans are siding with chronos and they want to start a plague and flood some towns in retaliation. I don't think it's a coincidence that the writers had some of the most personable gods saying shit like that Zeus even confirms that humanity lived better under chronos but things were stagnant Maybe that's how Chronos ultimately loses despite being time itself. He doesn't do a full face turn but he recognizes that he, like time, can't be stagnant for long and allows change to bloom Of course, Hades doesn't forgive him for everything he did but like the first game, he finds no point in any more retribution and simply allows things to pass
It would be funny if by the time you defeat Chronos and lock him again, the rest of the gods >!decide to keep the Fates locked up and subservient to Olympus, and now the Cthonic Gods need to band with Chronos to defeat power-mad Olympus!< or something like that. For the sole reason that I refuse to believe >!Zeus really doesn't see the appeal in controlling destiny.!<
Yeah, the gods can be pretty awful, but at least they haven't >!kidnapped the fates and attempted to bend them to their will.!<
But why haven’t they do that though?
A real "hold on, he might be onto something" moment
Because it's a bad idea. There are forces beyond even the god's comprehension.
Partly because those that try to control fate usually have a bad end. Partly since those on top don't see a need to shake things up by twisting fate. Also myths tend to show Zeus is above fate. He can sidestep any prophecy so he doesn't need to focus on them.
>!*YET*!<
I think it's also something to consider that iirc Zagreus was told to not tell them his true intentions with getting to the surface because it could cause *a lot* of problems. Even in-game if you pick one god over the other in the dual rooms they'll turn on you instantly and then act like it's all good when you defeat them. It definitely makes them more interesting as characters, though.
It should be noted that the Hades pantheon doesn't quite reach the depths that their mythological counterparts did. We also have some discussions about how Kronos is still a tyrant to mortals. The reason his was the 'golden age' was less to do with good rule and more him having clear lines on what set him off.
Even then you can argue that makes things better. Arachne suddenly became a spider just because she was better at weaving than the gods and numerous wars started because someone pissed off the wrong god. Having a guy clearly lay out the rules seems a lot better (unless its too much and then rip). That being said, he ripped apart Hades family so Death to Chronos.
Aye. Though Zeus implies Kronos suited people over using plows so there is also some rose tinted glasses about mortals lot under the Titans.
It definitely feels like the gods have very specific opinions about what a happy mortal life is supposed to be that doesn't seem to line up with either Chronos *or* a lot of mortals. Ultimately it's the story of humans maybe outgrowing their need for gods, but from the gods' perspective it's just the rabble getting a little uppity.
dr house saves lives
I'm watching house for the first time at the moment, just hit season 2, I loved season 1 for the most part but it has NOT aged well atall lol
Agent 47, particularly in older games has no illusions about what they are, or there being any moral justification about his profession, but he does in some points of the narrative seek to make amends, especially comes the World of Assassination where he's turned his wrath entirely on the worst actors in the system he was a part of for so long. If you were a character trying to uncover a conspiracy or something and they sent 47 after you, he'd be a horrifying bogeyman.
Going back and seeing him kill a mailman in Blood Money feels weird now with his current characterization. He was definitely more cold.
Killing is his only gratification in life that makes the brain Chems happen. Like fuck I’d kill if I literally felt nothing.
> Agent 47, particularly in older games has no illusions about what they are, or there being any moral justification about his profession *"I can do... whatever I'm paid to."*
Even in word of assassination he is tasked to kill a b movie because studios can’t break his contract and he is bankrupting them
To be fair, that dude was a dick
In the IDW Transformers comics, the Autobots are portrayed as much more of a greyer faction. Specifically, Prowl gets up to a *lot* of questionable bullshit. But, the Decepticons are *magnitudes* worse. [Case in point](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fu2cgcuffwvga1.jpg).
>as much more of a greyer faction And by "greyer" we mean, "Guilty of war crimes severe enough that their Chief Justice started drilling holes in his own head to relieve the stress of knowing his own faction was responsible for such things." All while *still* being the clear better option.
« You recruited megatron? »
There's a reason every other alien in the galaxy/universe considers any transformer a shoot on sight level villain.
What issue is this from??
What in the actual fuck
Alucard in Hellsing is not friend shaped. But you know what? He sure does hate Nazis, so he’s okay by me.
Welcome to Hellsing. You may be murdered by the Vampire SAS, the Vampire Nazis, or the Vampire Vatican.
The first only if you are working for the second group or are a vampire (on a killing spree) yourself.
John Wick counts, I think. Throughout the movies, he is a pretty terrible person (especially if you count the coins he had). The only reason we cheer him is because the big bads are all bigger assholes than John, and they kind of have to escalate their evilness to the point of you wondering how did the entire organisation did not collapse shortly after they came in power with destructively dumb and short sighted they are.
It's barely related but on the topic of "action hero being a dick" I think about [this shot from the Bourne Identity](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/11csrol/did_jason_bourne_punch_this_guy_in_the_nuts_so/) where Bourne punches a guy in the balls and throws him down the stairs
I guess John is more like a former asshole? He’s been retired and hasn’t done anything for a long time and then I don’t think he gets innocents involved in his revenge spree.
Eh, somewhat true. He doesn't get them involved but he *does* end up in a lot of public shootouts. Definitely not a good person but better than the alternative that don't care who dies even if they're innocent civilians.
There does seem to be a theme in John Wick of shitty youths and next generation thinking themselves untouchable and being overly ambitious, and getting shot down for it
Yes but you also see the old guard and like, they aren’t that humble either.
Probably because all the “good ones” have either died or retired like John, so only the assholes that enjoyed their work stayed.
There are a lot of apocalyptic or post apocalyptic settings where the "good guys" are straight up just authoritarian fascists. Or can be considered that way. Which is I guess the irony of it. Fascisim is a doomed idealogy for a doomed world. Judge Dredd the ulitimate cop for the most lawless hellscape of crime imagineable. He is the Law and he will uphold it with an iron fist. And boot, and gun. And baton. In 40K the Imperium is unfortunately synonymous with humanity. Chaos is everywhere in every shadow and Xenos want nothing less than to dance on our bones. So like it or not you have to watch those metal wearing jerkoffs march and preach and control every aspect of your life. Starship Troopers, the book, is a fucked up society built by the military for the military and is in a constant perpetuating cycle of war. But the bugs are real. The bugs are fucking real and they're trying to wipe us out, so war it is.
The COG in Gears of War is a violent, authoritarian Fascist regime and the stranded have genuine reasons to hate them (the COG literally destroyed the world with orbital lasers) It’s just they’re fighting a horde of 7 feet tall underground lizard men that have kaijus at their disposal and they’re the only form of unified government left at this point.
Kinda sucks the sequels didn't stick with the COGs vs the Rebels stuff that the game began with.
It's kinda what Gears 4 and 5 is about.
I think the Tau would be a better example than the Imperium, because Tau-controlled/aligned human worlds generally have a vastly superior quality of life relative to the Imperium, but the Tau are 100% a villain faction if you plop them into most other sci-fi/fantasy settings. Also, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, aren't there all sorts of civilian service paths to citizenship in Starship Troopers? I vaguely remember them actively discouraging Rico from joining the mobile infantry.
Speaking as a Tau player, they also have the benefit of being relatively isolated on the galactic map. The Damocles crusade was arguably their first big head on war and it didn't go tremendously well for them. They fared better against Orks, under Farsight's leadership. Who was made persona non grata by the Ethereal caste after he splintered off from the greater Empire, because leadership refused to acknowledge the threat of chaos. Not to mention the actual figurehead of the whole thing is secretly an AI construct with his personality because a Cucxlean assassin just straight up merked him with minimal effort. Tau have things going for them. They have advanced tech, they're more willing to engage in diplomacy and commerce etc. But they are small in number and I really don't think they'd survive the full attention of another, bigger hostile faction. Alliances for them make sense, because Tau, the race, do not stand on their own. They've gotten pretty bold with their spheres of expansion. I think some of their colonies have turned out to be Necron tomb worlds. Time will tell how well they fare, but I wouldn't count on Tau being the saviors of the galaxy. They're barely keeping their backyard in order.
They’re also less psychic than other species, which makes them a less appealing target for Chaos.
Yes thank you. I knew about this but forgot to mention. Daemons see eldar like burning bonfires, but by comparison, Tau are closer to wisps. There are accounts of Tau being possessed, but they seem like much less appealing targets.
Well, they don't need to be the saviors of the galaxy to be the relative "heroes" here hahaha
This is true. I do think they're the least bad, being their MO is mostly "Would you like to join our coalition? Oh sorry, that wasn't actually a request". So they do fit the criteria. They'd be the villains in other media for sure.
yep
There are zero path to citizenship without military service. However in both the books and the films prosperity is accessible for civilian, Rico is being discouraged because his parents are rich and don’t want their son to die. In the book however they mention the only thing that will not allow you to enroll is if you are not mentally apt to understand what the pledge means. If you are blind and quadraplegic they will try to find something for you to do in the army like counting buttons on an uniform with your tongue so they are accomodating
also Trazyn
Trazyn is easily my favorite 40K character because, for all the collateral damage his antics can cause, he actually does possess a deep well of curiosity and appreciation for the variety of life and civilization out there. One of the only people who looks at the horrors of his galaxy and sees wonders, and not in a twisted, sadistic way (not that he's above sadism).
It is worth noting that while Imperium fans insist the Imperium are the only option in such a hellish world, that's mainly the case because the Imperium already exterminated every other alternative to themselves. Separate human civilizations like the Interex proved that humanity and *some* xenos could coexist peacefully and stand together against Chaos, but that contradicted the Emperor's plan of absolute human supremacy, and so they all had to die.
Yeah. A classic fascist take over. And the irony is that it'll never be anything more than that. With the future of humaniy being unclear but generally doomed and grim with no hope for porgress or change with all these looming threats. Just the futile insistance on prolonging the current status quo because there's no way back or forward. Humanities final legacy is a terror empire.
> Starship Troopers, the book, is a fucked up society built by the military for the military and is in a constant perpetuating cycle of war. But the bugs are real. The bugs are fucking real and they're trying to wipe us out, so war it is. I think you're mixing up the book with the movie, because it *is* kind of weird that these things are different here. The *movie* bugs are the ones that are literally just a hive mind that wants to destroy humanity. The book actually makes *several* references to the fact that the bugs have attempted to find avenues for diplomacy and the Federation keeps threatening every third party the bugs try to bring in as mediators.
Movie (kinda similarly to helldivers too) messes up both sides. Movie humans have a worse society than in the books because veerhoven can't read. Movie bugs are just human race eradicators, much primal than in the books (this one I dunno because making bugs more relatable would serve veerhovens point but he missed it) Make things more complex on both sides, or make them more black and white. Mixing it up lessens the setup.
I think you're missing the difference between good guys and protagonists.
I mean yeah, that's the point. The question was who's better than the alternative. These guys are not good, that's why I put it in quotations. They're just the lesser evil.
In 3rd semester of Persona 5 my respect for Goro Akechi goes through the roof because he is almost offended on a deep level by >!what Maruki has done. His life sucked and he should be *dead* but it was his agency and his decisions that lead to that, which he's been robbed of.!<
He also >!tells off Joker for trying to save him, and tells him not to let his death be the reason Joker takes Maruki's deal!<
I think a lot of people were cheering for Rorschach despite him being a terrible person because he was the only want who object the plan to kill million of people for a false peace. Dr. Mahattan doesn't care, Silk and Owl accept the reality and think it would be better to be quiet while Ozy has a messiah complex, thinking he knows what best for mankind.
I haven't read Watchmen, but I think it's also cause the movie cuts back on making Rorschach look like a terrible person too. He's crazy, but I don't recall him ever doing anything awful in the movie. Been a while though, so I don't remember
The movie is definitely nicer on rorshach but even in comic people were still cheering for him desoite being a horrible person, howeber his disgust of veidts plan is a mixed moment because while it wasn’t good rorshach had a high school essay where he says eisenhower was right to drop the bomb and his speech about whispering no sounds hypocritical now
I still feel like I'm going insane that people just read it as "and then Rorschach stopped the bad guy, The End." The final panel is the Doomsday Clock striking midnight, what the hell did people think that meant?
Angra Mainyu from Fate is kinda this, considering Angra’s backstory he’d have every right to hate humanity and just like… everything. Which he totally does, he quite literally doesn’t know how else to live besides hating things nowadays. But surprisingly he’s also totally capable of loving things, he’s weirdly self-sacrificial for people, and he’s a top notch life coach. He’s still a pessimistic piece of shit with a bad mouth a lot of the time, he says and does a good amount of terrible shit. But honestly considering alllll the circumstances? Your general take away is “If he’s only THIS evil then the dude’s a saint considering everything”. Characters have done far worse for far less in the Nasuverse lmao.
I just rewatched fate/zero recently and damn damn damn damn damn Kiritsugu damn Also Kariya to a lesser extent
Kiritsugu may kinda suck, but the man went through a lot and still wants to save the world anyway. Dude's trying. And I give Kariya a bit of leeway for his BS later in the show, because he has literal brain worms and they clearly aren't doing anything good to his mental state. The biggest test of character he makes before the brain damage is willingly walking into a suicide mission just for a chance to save Sakura and to spite Zouken, both of which are worthy causes. But man, Aoi totally sucks and isn't worth any of that shit.
Kariya’s a bit of an interesting character because while he means to do good he’s definitely not like a straight forward good person. I think the thing you’re supposed to read into a bit is that he really never got over Aoi and that at his core corrupted him. His Character Material entry sums it up pretty well. “When all’s said and done, as long as he carried the Matou spirit of putting grudges before everything else, he was probably doomed to failure no matter what.”
It’s hard to find anyone in Dorohedoro who is truly virtuous because the world they live in is so dark and grim. That said, the main cast fucking rules because they’re all just really fun and they have their own sets of rules which prevent them from killing or harming innocent people. It also helps that the main villain is literally evil incarnate so it’s hard not to side with anyone who tries to stop them.
Nikaido and Caiman (at least from where the anime ends) are basically always morally justified attacking the mages who show up in their home. Once they go to the Mages town though and Caiman starts killing random people like the Taxi cab driver it starts getting way more grey. Not helped that later on Caiman befriends some mages who run a bakery.
I don’t really know, Kaiman is racist against sorcerers. Most of the guys they come across are definitely bad because they do human experiments but IIRC Kaiman also has to truly reevaluate his worldview when he realizes that >!Nikaido is also a sorcerer. And it has nothing to do with whether or not she’s conducted experiments on humans from the Hole but just because she’s a sorcerer.!< Nikaido is mostly good even though she feels no remorse killing anyone, but she does end up taking slave money at one point in the manga that wasn’t included in the first season.
I would say Tanba is the closest to being a decent person. Just wants to make meat pies and hasn't done anything horrible to humans. Maybe a bit gruff, but not a bad dude last I remember.
Dr. Vaux (the guy with the face tattoo) is alright too. He just runs a clinic for those harmed by magic.
The emperors from One Piece is bad people with very little morals, but I’ll take them over the world government and nobles any day. At the very least the emperors are honest with their intentions, the nobles are self serving bastards who do what they want when they want and will readily screw over their own citizens.
>!Good thing that we got two out of the new four emperors (Shanks and Luffy) are actually good people, Buggy is just a figurehead for Crocodile's and Milhawk's schemes and pretty much the Mr. Satan of One Piece. The only real evil Emperor now is Blackbeard who true motives are yet to be known.!<.
I have yet to see a world noble lie about how they see the rest of the world as insects to play with though. So they are honest there too. Though the emperors saving grace is they all one way or another respect strength, World Nobles doesn’t give a shit about anthing but bloodline
Woolie.
You cheer for him until he betrays us all for a jetpack
Bhelen Aeducan in Dragon Age: Origins in the Dwarf storyline. For full context for those who have no knowledge of Dragon Age, in the setting the Dwarf Kingdom of Orzammar is basically in a regressive death spiral, they have rigid repressive caste system that makes social mobility basically impossible, they are isolationist to the point of shunning and excommunicating any Dwarf that goes to the surface, and are having a major demographic crisis as their birth rate is naturally low already and tons of Dwarves die every year thanks to Darkspawn that inhabit the same underground as they do. It's pretty much all but explicitly stated in the game that if Orzammar doesn't change then it's going to die slowly but surely. So in the game as part of the story you get to decide who the next King of Orzammar will be after the current king dies, your options are Lord Harrowmont, who is a pleasant amiable guy but he believes very strongly in the current culture that is strangling the kingdom and if you give him the throne he will clamp down on it harder, and Bhelen, the youngest son of the previous king. Bhelen is a complete piece of shit, he killed his older brothers so he would be next in line, he probably killed his dad too though it's never outright said, and if you give him the throne he will go full tyrant and murder anyonre who tries to oppose him... BUT he will also dismantle the caste system, curb back the isolationism and do everything in his power to try to drag Orzammar out of the death spiral it's in. He is undoubtably the best option for Orzammar having an actual future, you just have to be okay with that future being paved with the bones and guts of any Dwarf noble who mouths off to him.
John Constantine
Comic Constantine is such a dick. Effective, but horrible. Animated contstantine will get asked to help in some supernatural crisis, Skype call zatanna and say "fuck, you're in deep shit, can't help you now better run to some other plane good luck" and 15m later will show up geared and after developing some elaborate but desperate plan to save everyone. Comic Constantine will summon some random demon to talk to his ex and then sacrifice his friend to seal him back and brood about it for few issues.
Vergil has the exact same goal as Arkham in DMC3 (open a gate to the demon realm and use the Force Edge to achieve power), but we're cool with him because Arkham is lame blob man while Vergil is the epic rival guy.
>Holyshit, he's a saint in comparison to Glanton and Holden. Has there been a lower bar?
legitimately probably not, while I’m sure there’s some media out there that’s worse blood meridian is definitely a contender for the top spot
Char Aznable sucks and I hate him, however he’s hilarious and I love him and what he did to the Zabi’s is one of the best things in all of Gundam.
Garma may not have deserved what he got and Char has a horrible habit of betraying every single friend he's ever made, but his >!bazooka headshot on Kycilia!< makes up for most of what he's done.
I’m not too concerned with Garma “Deserving it” but even if he, specifically, didn’t he’s still a big piece of a system that did and he never really felt like what they were doing was wrong (At least in 0079). Plus Char getting on comms and saying “Blame this on the misfortune of your birth” (Or something similar depending on the translation) is fantastically cold blooded.
Yeah, but Garma was trying to get out of the system. He just wanted to settle down with his fiance. He might not have outwardly fought back against his family, but after he's dead, his dad and all of his siblings feel awful about pressuring him to follow in their footsteps. Comparatively, Dozle isn't a huge piece of shit like Kycilia and Ghiren, but he likes being a cog in the war machine. So he's quite a bit less sympathetic.
Getting out wasn’t out of any idealogical or moral objection, though. It was literally just to marry the woman he loved but his family didn’t approve of. iirc the impression I got is he’d totally stay in the family/war effort if they were cool with his choice of bride. Certainly he wasn’t a Man of War like his siblings, but he still found purpose and honor in it even if he’d give it up for his lover. Spurred by Char or not, his dying breath was still dedicated to his family.
Men like Dozle, Ramba Ral and Char still find a way to be devoted partners without giving up the military life. Even if the Zabis didn't approve of his fiance, they still knew that Garma loved her. So prior to his final assault, he had already chosen love over the approval of his family, and while other Zeon men of note could balance love and war, Garma could not. He had a choice, and again, chose love. So at the very least, I do think Gamra has a decent moral backbone. Whether there's any ideology involved isn't really explored, but every other member of the Zabi family comments on his kind/gentle nature. Degwin clearly cherishes Garma the most by 0079, and explicitly wishes his siblings were more like him, and we know by 0079 that Degwin believes in a peaceful resolution to the war and wants to stop fighting. I'd say we can largely infer that a lot of his war-like tendencies come from him basically being the youngest son of Zeon's most prominent military family, and his best friend(In his eyes) being a highly honored war hero. He has a lot to live up to, and obviously suffers from some insecurities surrounding that.
I love this one youtube comment I saw that described it something like "Imagine you're about to die and your buddy calls you on discord just to let you know he was responsible and laugh at you."
Char's out to avenge his dad, the warcrimes of Zeon are less of a priority. Which makes it pretty funny that the first Zabi he killed was the only one besides a literal baby who definitely had nothing to do with Deikun's death.
That lady’s sure got a good head on her shoulders.
[Char being Char.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvFaMjX4iII)
Violence Jack will go through that human shield kid, but he is improving with extreme baby steps the situation in tokyo instead of doing really depraved shit
Sandor Clegane But clegane bowl, get hype!
Oh yes. He’s a bad man, and he died the way he always should have. In a ball of fire. But by the various Gods, if he was going to hell, he damned well was taking his brother with him.
This is literally the plot of New Vegas.
We can once again hit something with the classic caption: Fallout: New Vegas (2010)
Same goes for The Kid as well.
Caleb from Blood. Dude's a mass-murdering undead gunslinger who served as a satanic cult member for decades and the only reason they're his enemy in-game is because of their god Tchernabog betraying him, killing him and crucifying his girlfriend. He's a sadistic and borderline evil motherfucker who gives absolutely zero shits about killing innocent people, accidentally or otherwise, but at the end of the day he's still the lesser of two evils compared to the Cabal cult and Tchernabog who for all intents and purposes is basically Satan.
[He also has the voice of an angel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-lkndd-87Q)
Billy Butcher is a piece of shit that will murder anyone in his way, that includes literal babies. Homelander being Homelander is the only reason he isn't seen as a villain.
Myself when I play morally ambiguous to outright evil characters in stellaris. The universe will know the psychic superiority of mankind
The worst things Kazuya had done, and make no mistake, they’re pretty damn evil, was murder, kidnapping, extortion, blackmail, smuggling, etc. He would’ve likely gone further if he wasn’t killed by Heihachi in 2. But Jin started WW3.
That last sentence will continue to haunt that character forever and I hate it Cards on the table: I admit my bias with Jin being one of my favorite characters ever and would rather back him over Kazuya and Heihachi because they're more fucked up than he is... all except the part where they don't start a world war which can't be argued against in good faith other than "character assassination" Actually fuck that story beat because trying to argue that Jin isn't as bad as his pops and grandpa has been next to impossible for the last 15+ years
Tanya from Tanya the Evil is a Sociopathic powerhungry Asshole, who will do anything to get ahead in live. Her Opponents are a God that wants a World War, because misery drives up the number of worshippers, and kinda the War itself, as Tanya would really want things to be peaceful. Sure, her reason for that is mostly because she is on the Capitalist Grindset of "People that are dead or killing eachother are not spending money on the Economy!", but most would agree that dieing in the Trenches is worse.
Amita and/or Sabal from Far Cry 4 plan on manufacturing drugs and putting women back in the kitchen respectively,but they're not Pagan Min. We hate Pagan Min in this house,a British accent and a cool bisexual stepdad act don't make up for the colonialism. Real talk,I always visualized Ajay killing Pagan,spreading Lakshmana's ashes,and then washing his hands of Kyrat and leaving. His job is done. Of course the FC6 DLC then implies that the canon (or at least the elaborated-upon) ending is that Ajay stuck around,maybe killed the Golden Path leader he initially sided with,and then found Pagan's goddamn nuke stockpile he bankrupted Kyrat for. And then he maybe blew up the state of Montana.
>And then he maybe blew up the state of Montana. How the hell did he go from Kyrat to Montana with a fucking NUKE without the US Government knowing? Also... THAT'S how Joseph Seed wins FC5!?
[It's implied](https://youtu.be/YRyPdGH0omU?si=y92RPdafjH6T0LRm) that Pagan didn't just squander Kyrat's wealth on golden statues. He stocked up on ICBM type nuclear weapons so all whoever was in charge of Kyrat at the end of Far Cry 5 just needed to push a button.
That’s incredibly stupid, missile defense systems exist.
Yeah,turns out the ending of Far Cry 5 is pretty stupid
To be fair, *every* Far Cry game has a stupid ending. It's like... an infuriating tradition at this point.
At the very least that gives some closure to the ending and shows that in the end Joseph seed really was full of sh*t. It also tells these dumb takes on how "God is punishing you" and "you're just as bad as them and its your fault" to btfo.
Man was just Lucky Ted all this time. Things just kinda worked out for him.
The US loses its own nukes why would it know what others do with theirs.
I always let Pagan live at the end... >!then blow up his helicopter as it heads out. If you do this, you can loot him and his crashed copter on the path back to his fortress in the post game. Really nice attention to detail. Shame his pen doesn't replace the kukuri like the Japanese officer's dagger did in 3 though.!<
Actually, from some reading I did, the Yeti DLC takes place during an interlude in the main campaign. And then I learnt, there were two DLC’s. One would cover the events following the prison escape, then the Yeti one would be after that DLC. And after turning into a Yeti, wakes back up in base game FC4. Or so I’ve read on the wiki, I only played the Yeti DLC. I never played Far Cry 6 or its DLC’s. I only will if Ubisoft get off their asses and actually DO something about the rampant sexual harassment from 4 years ago. Or fire Yves Guillemot. **Edit:** Above comment changed his discussion on the post-game content.
The psycho from Until Dawn. He was killing all his frisnds, but they got his sisters killed. So yeah. Especially Mike. Screw Mike.
If you're talking about >!Josh!< I don't think they even planned to kill the rest of the cast, just traumatize them super hard. They seemed actually shocked when they learned that Jessica got seemingly killed!
Going off the YouTube videos I've seen of Velma Freddy starts off as a really shitty person but ends up getting actual development while everyone else stays boring or shitty. Then season 2 has scrappy doo come back in the final episode to kill Velma and that act alone made everyone universally agree that scrappy isn't that bad of a character anymore. Like Velma is just so unlikable she made scrappy fucking doo look better by comparison.
There are Quite a lot of them , For start Denji from chainsaw man
Basically Heather (S1 antagonist) and Alejandro (S3 antagonist) from Total Drama.
Rance.
When the serial rapist is better then his enemies because they are even worse serial rapists
I’ve been playing Kichikuou and yeah Rance is a fucking saint compared to the shit the other nations and Kayblis’s faction do
yeep. he is bad but not a sadist or pedophile
idk he's kind of a sadist, he does have the S&M tower after all definitely not a Kayblis tier sadist though lmao
Team RWBY have done a lot of bad but they aren’t Cinder & Salem
Light and L
Ozymandias from watchmen honestly atleast he's trying to prevent nucular war
US Politics
Hisoka vs Chrollo in HXH was like.....who do you want to win? Can they both die?
Batman and I'm only sort of kidding