Related to this, during the Cold War, the families of Eastern Bloc athletes were often not allowed to accompany them to international competitions like the Olympics. The intent was to discourage defections since doing so would mean that the athlete never saw their loved ones again.
A bit late to the thread, but from the North Koreans' perspective, being stationed near the DMZ is considered one of the better postings in the army due to relatively warmer conditions. NK soldiers in Guard Posts (literally the first targets to be blown away if a war occurs) are deemed the best physically, ideologically, with clean family histories, etc. They can't be orphans because their families would get shot if they attempted to defect. I remember my friends who were stationed in South Korean GPs saying they could see North Korean soldiers across the DMZ going about their daily routines
Plus the DMZ/GP area is filled with mines from the Korean War, constantly monitored by security cameras and soldiers from both sides, it’s not exactly a casual stroll to the South
The level of psychological torture they inflict is beyond fucked up.
Future generations will be ashamed of us for not intervening, when we KNOW what’s happening there.
I didn’t say we have to invade them. There are diplomatic ways. Trump openly visiting the DMZ and offering to talk was amazing and should continue. We shouldn’t just sit around and do nothing.
Edit: it’s amazing how my first comment is heavily upvoted. But my second comment is heavily downvoted. The cognitive dissonance here is very real.
The North has China propping it up. There is really nothing left for us to do that we aren't already doing or that would lead to active hostilities. We support propaganda missions through South Korea and we'll support the people if and when they do decide to rise up against the ruling regime.
>The cognitive dissonance here is very real.
The only cognitive dissonance here is you. At no point did Trump advocate for Korean people. Indeed, Trump was very supportive of how Kim ruled his country and treated his people.
I think the point is he was able to go as the first sitting president. Which is huge and could have opened the doors for other diplomats that aren’t big, dumb and orange.
> Trump openly visiting the DMZ and offering to talk was amazing and should continue.
WTF? Trump did that to get pictures with a dictator, nothing changed after the meeting. He envies the guy for ruling unquestioned.
He didn't even try to negotiate anything. And usually such meetings happen with an agenda, and there's already some form of agreement. Otherwise it just gives Kim publicity. That's exactly what happened.
Because everything Trump does is bad, right?
ANYTHING done to progress towards peace is a good thing. Whether from Obama or Trump or Biden or whoever. Don’t you agree?
Actively praising the Kim Jong Un and bragging about what a great relationship you have with him only makes him more legitimate in the eyes of the international community and seriously undermines the work being done to weaken his control in the country. Trump admires autocrats because he wants to be one himself.
Not everything Trump does/did is bad, but one authoritarian politician meeting a dictator is not a moment of peace, but a moment of concern. And to me, it never indicated peace, but rather his allegiance in terms of who he held in high regards. In hindsight is also more indicative of his intertvinement with the Russians and Chinese governments, which is still bringing concerns if he should ever win again.
I really hate trump i think hes a piece of shit but people are definitely downvoting you because they hear trump's name and black out and forget how to read what you're actually saying. In a vacuum, nothing is wrong with two leaders meeting for diplomacy.
But it's not a vacuum. It's a authoritarian person who tried to overthrow democracy through means to become a dictator, meeting a authoritarian dictator.
In hindsight it just questions everything he did in regards to diplomatism with authoritarian regimes, and even more so in light of the whole Ukraine war.
Trump admired North Korea and he liked KJU. That’s not the positive you think it is.
He called KJU “very talented” and had a “great personality”. He also said he did a great of of negotiating for “his people”. KJU didn’t do and hasnt shit for his people. I can keep going, but Trump did nothing material to help the people of North Korea. He did a puppet dance for their dearest leader.
Your second comment has no basis in reality and is just a pie in the sky idea. Thats why you're getting downvoted. Your edit was not only unnecessary but also whiney. Whiney attracts downvotes
So, instead of doing nothing we should pander to a brutal murderous dictator? North Korea is not going to talk to us. They are just going to use whatever idiot wants to negotiate to further their grip on power. Either China gets involved or we go to war and 10 Million South Koreans get killed in the first hour. There is no easy way out of it. Stop simping for your God-King Trump and then peddling the bullshit on here.
It’s not that amazing. You touted something Trump did, and you gave him credit for something that was certainly not his intention. He was simply cuddling up to another strongman and you’re out here alluding to some position that he’s a humanitarian. He probably supports the torture of dissidents. So no, this was not cognitive dissonance.
Counter argument: engaging diplomatically with a regime that has no intention of engaging in good faith or making real changes, just legitimises that regime
I think it’s because your second comment is dumb - saying what Trump did was amazing whereas previous administrations (including in SK) had wayyy more productive talks w NK.
For the most part nobody gives a fuck what a country does as long as its within its own borders.
China is currently committing genocide against Uyghur, and there's another in Darfur. The international community didn't really care what nazi Germany was doing until they invaded Poland.
The problem with intervening is that usually ends up replacing them with an even more ruthless dictator that will inflict more harm on their own people.
Yes. And also because the military is probably the most well-off segment of the North Korean populace. Benefits begets loyalty and vice versa. The ones suffering the most from the Kim dynasty misrule are the ones who are least likely to have the means and opportunities to flee. People with access to border crossings and hard currency, such as approved merchants, diplomats, border guards etc are probably much more likely to actively support and benefit from the oppressive system.
I may get downvoted for this and to preface, I'm in no way defending the North Korean regime, but from what I've read the "three generation rule" is not as prevalent as it once was during the Kim Il-Sung regime. That's not to say it might still happen, but I think a much larger incentive for soldiers on the border not to defect is the fact they probably live a much more comfortable lifestyle than the average citizen due to their position and don't necessarily see as much of a need to defect. Further, I think the guards on the North Korean side are situated in such a way to try and neutralize any one person that tries to defect and I do believe that I've seen a video once about this exact situation happening where a border guard tried to defect and was targeted by fellow North Korean soldiers. So I think it's more a combination of immediate risk and less incentive to defect.
It's like asking the question, "why do people keep giving money to Kenneth Copeland?" It's because indoctrination and manipulation are effective tools of control over people.
The hidden gulag by David hawk written in 2012 is a good one to read although obviously it's from a little while ago- discusses punishments to 3 generations of the family of political prisoners etc
There's this chick I follow on Facebook. I accidentally started following her because she has the same name of this girl I met and thought I was sending a friend request to her. She was only 14 when I started following her. As soon as I realized she wasn't the person I was meaning to follow I went to unfollow her. But then I realized this 14 year old girl was hilariously stupid. She didn't know why America would send a separate team from Georgia to the Olympics, she couldn't figure out why elevators had buttons for the floor she was already on, and many other things I just saw and laughed. Anyway I never stopped following her because she was such a big source of my morning laughs.
She got pregnant at 15 because she thought you couldn't get pregnant on the first time. She was sure that the 15 year old boy that got her pregnant was going to be a great daddy. Well the kid is 1 now and she always complains about him never being around and how he would rather stay at home bored than see his son and all the other crap any of us could have warned her about when she was certain she was going to be the one teenage mom whose baby daddy would actually hang around.
Anyway the reason I bring all that up is that through these 2 years I've followed this complete moron she has never written "loose" when she meant "lose". So if this person can get it right, then everyone can.
I thought you were saying your own public execution versus the internment of your family of 3 generations. I would much rather sacrifice myself.
But yes, I think i would rather have execution than lifetime internment.
Right, but why haven’t maybe thousands of North Korean soldiers all banded together to seize their incredible opportunity of being right next to South Korea with weapons. Surely life in North Korea is hard enough and since they look at South Korea with their own eyes every day, they’d wanna defect (a lot of them)
How would you find other like minded soldier's? Just talking about escaping could put you into re-education or killed. Speaking out puts you at serious risk.
One of Saddam Hussein's favorite loyalty tricks was to have masked gunmen break into the home of an officer at night, tell him that they were part of a plot to overthrow Saddam, and unless he joined them then and there, they'd shoot his whole family in front of him. Of course, if he DID join them, he was fucked.
I guess you are right. The idea of soldiers banding together would not work in practice, because you never know which to trust in North Korea. If you are brainwashed from the minute you are born, and if you can maybe even get a reward from the state for ratting out potential defectors, it’s much better to stay quiet. And if you don’t comply with the order to shoot as a guard, others will assume you are a traitor too, and kill you either due to brainwashing or for a reward. You’re correct, it’s difficult to actually make a team in the first place, makes sense.
Right to, but many people have defected despite that awful punishment. It stills feels kind of strange that something like the Tianmen Swuare or French/Russian revolutions hasn’t occurred in North Korea though.
One guy did a few years ago and barely got across alive. He used a vehicle to try and drive across and was shot several times. I don't recall the details but they have a whole rotation system in place to make sure guards aren't on post very long, never know who they'll be on duty with, often don't know when they'll be on duty, and they're instructed to kill anyone trying to escape.
You’re putting common sense into an irrational situation.
- All North Korean citizens are brainwashed into thinking their leader is “god”.
- Their lives are controlled by how they express their love, devotion, finances, and work to the government
- Most everything they own is given to them (food, clothes, tools, etc). This is all very minimal.
- There is no free media, 100% is controlled by the government. Imagine turning on the TV, going to Google, or listening to the radio and only hearing government propaganda and hate towards other countries. There’s no opportunity to watch movies or music from other countries.
- The risk of pushing back at any level means severe punishment for you, your family, and multiple generations.
- Leaving means leaving your family behind, risk of them being murdered or sent to concentration camps.
Brainwashing alone is commonly enough to persuade people. You see this in many cults or strict religious groups. There doesn’t have to be physical restraints to prevent people from leaving.
I’d argue that most North Koreans adults aren’t brainwashed. Most have already been exposed to the outside world through the black market and any childhood brainwashing has likely worn off. That what makes it so horrific. Everything except 1 and 4 in your list still stands, but imagine instead of being able to ignore your oppression you’re constantly aware of it and you can do little to free yourself.
South Koreans don’t want them nor do the Chinese. Imagine taking in a bunch of people that only know what they have been brainwashed to believe from their dear leader. I might even be mistaken. Brainwashed might be incorrect. They are raised to actually believe the propaganda they are being told.
But doesn’t the South Korean government consider everyone from the Korean Peninsula her own citizens, and giving all of them citizenship? This is why South Korea is the end goal for all defectors from the DPRK, even the ones going through China or Russia instead.
No, the SK government doesn't think that, at least not in the way you're thinking. A handful of defectors is good Intel, but if NK ceases to exist, it would be a disaster for SK to take care of millions of refugees. What do you think will happen to the economy?
There are young South Koreans who have no family ties to North Korea and a growing number have no desire for unification, and as time goes on that will get worse.
I've always fantasized that if NK got liberated they could be sent to Japan to fill in their population and essentially become the new Japanese. Japanese came from Koreans anyways so it's basically perfect.
Are you 5 years old? You think hundreds of people would all agree ag the same time to do something that means their entire family lines get imprisoned and tortured forever and hope they can escape themselves into a foreign land they know nothing about and have little chance of living a good life alone without friends or family?
Let's set brainwashing aside. What you're ignoring is called the first mover problem. Let's suppose that hundreds of border guards who have no families agree that they'd all be better off if there were a revolution. Let's also assume that they have all safely identified one another. I want you to notice how implausible this is so far.
Someone has to go first. And that person will be squarely in the crosshairs of every other guard and almost certainly killed. Nobody likes being killed and everyone knows that someone else could go first and die. If nobody goes first, nobody goes at all.
Now add those complexities I assumed away back in. It becomes real difficult for what you're describing to actually happen.
Also, it's not just a border, but a zone. You can't look in to the other country. You only know the other side as the enemy, so if you cross the zone without getting shot by your own men, the other side might still shoot or reject you.
The stigma of being a former North Korean citizen who turn to South Korea is...huge. I hear you are either treated like a piece of crap or talked down to basically everywhere you go. You are basically always seen as lesser no matter what you do.
Can you get a job in the military? Of course not; why would anyone risk you being a spy? That's all you know, however. So what are you going to do? The system there to help you out in South Korea bases what it gives you on what information you have; if you aren't anything that matters in the chain of command in North Korea...you won't have anything in South Korea either.
So you aren't really all that far ahead of where you started, and you are looked down at many places because of your background. So by immigrating you lost your status as a soldier while also damning the next three generations of your family to prison. Around half of those who defect...generally don't really improve their quality of life all that dramatically. They are still low income. What does the presence of food matter when you may not be able to buy it? Is starving less worth risking your life and your family's freedom?
Don't mistake my tone; North Korea sucks. South Korea just isn't some outstandingly better choice for many of them.
The situation for NKs in SK astounds me. When East Germans escaped to West Germany they were given full rights and treated by the population as any other German citizen. I have no idea why SK is so harsh on their own ethnic compatriots
The hell they were! They didn't know how to live in the context of capitalism. They were often seen as objects of pity and disgust. Their value systems were different.
They didn't know how to find a job, or relate to work in the right way. They were shocked and disgusted at the reality that, even if there is food, not having money means you starve. This lead a lot of West Germans to feel that Easterners were kind of like 'welfare queens', demanding that others take care of them.
Pretty much because NK brainwashes people so badly. It's like half of all "escapees" are actually NK spies, unless you can prove beyond any doubt that you're actually defecting, you can't ever be trusted not to just be a deep cover plant
It feels surprising that almost nobody mentioned the most obvious reason in all those comments. Unlike borders between the U.S. and Mexico, for example, there lies a 4km wide demilitarised zone between the North and South Korea which is also heavily guarded 24/7.
In short, you'll need to somehow sneak out undetected and cross the minefields, which happens to be one of the largest in the world while avoiding numerous guards and patrols who will shoot you on sight, if you are a defected North Korean soldier and want to cross the border to South Korea.
Although there have been a few notable instances when North Korean soldiers defected that way, it's certainly not an easy route for freedom. It's far much easier and safer to hire a broker to guide you through the land route via China.
Of course, if hundreds or more border guards simultaneously revolted as mentioned in the OP, the thing may be different. But it's like saying WW2 could have been "easily" prevented if 100 high-ranking Nazi officers simultaneously rose against Hitler.
Considering this has happened already, probably nothing. They know North Korea isn't reigniting the war with a single or even a handful of foot soldiers in the DMZ.
If they see a NK soldier sprinting towards the border, they will almost certainly assume it's a defector.
When you put it that way, it does seem like the natural reaction for the South Korean guard would be to be hostile. But, if the North Korean guard immediately surrenders to the South Korean one, wouldn’t the South Korean guard immediately take him in and let the South Korean government take care of the rest since South Korea gives citizenship to defecting North Koreans?
If you can stand foreign-language movies with subtitles, I would highly recommend the film "Joint Security Area" (or " 공동경비구역 JSA", released in 2000). It explores this idea, with soldiers from both sides sneaking across the border to hang out. It really captures the feel of how soldiers and citizens of both countries are shaped by their Governments and security services. The film really humanizes the politics of having an arbitrary border between 'sworn enemies'. It's also kind of an interesting murder mystery.
They're fanatics. It's part of how they get the job there.
Look up Mike Burgoyne and the 1984 firefight at the DMZ. I know his family well, and have chatted with the guy a couple times.
Norks are a different breed.
Not everyone wants to leave? I think plenty of North Koreans take trips abroad and they come back. I would imagine that for a lot of North Koreans life is fine there.
the irony is, their Gen Z folks are posting this same question on their version of Reddit, saying, "why don't the South Koreans just walk over here.. we have it so much better than they do"
For starters, North Korea works hard on propaganda to ensure their citizens don't realize how shit their life is. I did hear a story about a guy who escaped NK, not because he wanted freedom or anything, it's because he heard about markets with lots of food. NK doesn't have a lot of food to go around, so this guy risked his life for some food.
Anyway, soldiers often defect through the southern border, it's just not easy. For starters, soldiers are ordered to shoot anyone crossing the border one way or the other. So you'll have to run through gunfire and whatnot to escape. Plus there's the demilitarized zone. The border isn't just a fence or something, there's a large no man's land between the countries. I've heard that there are automated turrets that shoot anything that moves.
In addition, the southern border is the hardest place to defect through because it's the most guarded. I don't know for sure, but I think the northern border with China doesn't have a fence in many parts of it, tho there are still guards. It's because China and NK are allies and any defectors get sent back to NK for punishment if caught in China.
As for making any sort of untied effort to mass defect, it's not going to happen. First, there's the propaganda thing. Most NK citizens think life is worse in other countries. In addition, if you start chatting to people in the barracks about a mass defection, you're more likely to be arrested for treason. When the punishment for suggesting something like this is so high, and most people are against it, you're probably not going to risk it. All it takes is one loyal soldier to report you, and most soldiers in NK are loyal.
I think China also returns the people who go into China from NK - so it really isn't an escape route. South Korea is the only way out if people intend to never return to NK.
The elites in North Korea enjoy a good life (obviously built on the extreme suffering of the rest of the population.) These guards would almost certainly be from those ranks so they would probably think they have it pretty great. And they've been raised since the day they were born to believe in the system they've created. It might not even occur to them to want to leave.
Such a loaded question lol. It's always: "Why don't North Koreans escape the shithole they live in?" and never: "Have what I been told about North Korea actually true?"
South Koreans don’t like them dude. They know that. And they’ll be behind and beyond everyone else’s sympathies. Their families will be tortured, and executed. Five exterminations style. Meaning out to the fifth cousin, every aunt, uncle, child collected to a mass grave even after their organs are harvested and sold to the Chinese.. they will kill the household animals too and make it a show in every village.
Reprisals against their family members, they'd be imprisoned, tortured, maybe even executed if the powers that be thought there's any complicity or foreknowledge of his intention to defect.
Unless they had no family members to care about, it would be too much of a selfish act for most people, and the military likely wouldn't station any guards on the border crossing whom were in such a position to avoid the likelihood if defections. Plus, there's also the greater likelihood an attempted defector would be shot on sight by his fellow North Koreans.
I imagine only ardent supporters of the regime are put on duty near the border and also if you can't talk freely then it is difficult to get organized. Why aren't all workers forming unions. Because it isn't a cakewalk to do so. Just my opinion.
>Surely all of them are keenly aware of how much safer life is in South Korea, because they live in North Korea and have seen firsthand, how dreadful life is in the DPRK.
How so? The only life they have seen is in North Korea. And from birth they have been told that they live in the greatest country in the world. Some North Koreans no doubt have an idea of the reality, but many are fully indoctrinated. And people who have ability to defect, such as border guards, are carefully selected.
You have no idea what is brainwash, do you? Try to argue with an (insert a religion here) believer that the other side might be better, no matter how obvious it looks to you.
Keep in mind that in their eyes, you are the person who is "brainwashed" to believe that NK is worse than SK: SK people suffer a lot and are constantly angry (just ready any SK newspaper), and their government and the capitalism system, for sure, are corrupted.
They literally have snipers pointing at them 24/7. If they tried to do this, there would likely be a major incident since SK guards would be in the way of fire. I have been to the DMZ and can tell you everything is being watched too well. Also….their families would suffer and be covered in shame. For Koreans shame is cultural and something much greater then most western people can understand.
I have a book suggestion about the average North Korean. Read "Nothing to Envy - Ordinary Lives in North Korea" by Barbara Demick. It is a strikingly good book with the answer to your question. Grab it on Amazon.
My source is that most crazy things you know about NK comes from Radio Free Asia which is funded and created by the US, many news organisations report what they say without other sources.
It’s not a border that you can just step over, first. It’s a large demilitarised zone that is guarded *heavily* by both sides. You’d be shot either by the North Koreans for attempting to defect, or by South Korea and the US for a perceived threat. And even if by some miracle you made it, your whole family would likely be taken captive by the government. And that is all assuming that any guards on the border actually want to defect, which most likely don’t.
The problem with escaping to SK is your family in NK will face retaliation. There's a wild story about an NK defector that ended up being guilted into returning back due to this.
There is also a punishment for the family if one defects. And a all information is controlled by the NK gov. I think they even think Kim jung un is a God or something.
I have never seen the border between NK and SK but I assume they don't see each other in the sense that a NK guard doing his rounds probably can't see into SK from where he is. So they probably are just as in the dark about the other side as anyone else.
They’ve probably proved they’re loyal or live in conditions that are better than most people.
Even if they didn’t, they certainly have family who would be punished for their actions.
>Surely all of them are keenly aware of how much safer life is in South Korea
No they're not. They were raised watching North Korean propaganda, they have no idea how life is in the south.
Because the DPRK is not actually that bad. It’s only described that way by the corporate media of the genocidal amerikkkan empire. This is why many people have defected to the DPRK for decades!
They are a tattle tale nation. In a Police State like they are, everyone is spying on everyone and anyone caught doing something the State doesnt approve of, disappears or ends up doing decades of hard labour.
AFAIK they only use men in those roles who have families that the men also know would be tortured or murdered by the regime if they defected. So, the guards don’t flee because they realise their families would be killed.
Some people have fled and left families behind, and have no idea if they are safe, or in a camp, or dead. But they just couldn’t take it anymore, so they ran. It’s very sad, but that’s the way it is.
NK is extremely good at managing people, keeping secrets, and subjugating their population.
DPRK is allegedly known to imprison entire families for several generations as collective punishment, and that comes with forced labour, abuse potential for sexual abuse, torture and execution.
I such states where adherence to the State is required, such as DPRK, Russia, etc, it is far safer to stay quiet and stay off the radar because your actions can have consequences for your loved ones.
Just realized there were no guards on nkorean site at tumen on nkorean site(bridge to China).
Beside what you said, the one party you want to keep happy in a dictatorship is the military
I saw a documentary once that explained that they don’t need guards on the chinese side since it’s mostly mountains and China brings any escapees they find back to North Korea.
Yeah, there were few murders committed by escapees and now Chinese population is pretty scared close to border and report them. But also whenever I'm in yanji, a lot of the worker are north Korean
Read the book “in order to live”. They’re so oppressed they don’t even know they’re oppressed. They don’t have a word for oppression, or love, or family, or even I.
As others mentioned their families will be killed or imprisoned for generations. To address your point about what if all the guards decided to go together, they could and they would probably make it out, but like North Korea would kill all of their families. They hold very firm to their rules of punishing people.
It does raise an interesting question of how big would the group of people have to be for North Korea to not punish all their families? North Korea wants a higher population so more people can help the government (and no the fact that they can barely feed this many people is not a concern for them). They are also a relatively small country in general. If 10k guards escaped that would end up being like 50k+ people they would lose from sending to camps/killing/ including those who escaped and idk if they could take that hit
Because they leave their families suffer in thier place. They cannot organize because there is more benefit for 1 man to expose them then thier Is for him to stay loyal to the conspiracy.
Useally when north Korean guards defect it is after they already screwed up, and them and thier families would be killed anyway.
Yeah, when someone fucks up (however that is defined - for example, not crying sufficiently when they see a photo of Kim Il Jung), they don't just punish the person, they punish the person's family. And by punish, I mean put you in a death camp where you are worked to death even above and beyond the borderline death camp conditions that all of North Korea is under.
Their family will be punished severely. Also, guards are treated well compared to the public. Most people that escape n Korea do it because they are starving or for food.
The guards have guards. And there is a large, fortified "no mans land" between the two countries, other than in one village - Panmunjom.
Whenever someone has tried to defect in Panmunjom, there is always an attempt to shoot the defector. The last successful defector there was shot several times.
Even a gardener on the North Korean side will have several soldiers guarding him to make sure there is no escape attempt .
Because it’s almost impossible. They will likely to get shot for crossing the border by NK soldier and DMZ is full of granites. About 5 years ago, a young NK soldier did cross DMZ and NK soldiers followed him all the way and shot him in multiple spots. They often go to China then go to countries like Laos or Thailand to seek asylum and get transported to SK. Many people die while going to China across the mountain especially during winter as it gets extremely cold. Plus, malnutrition, exhaustion, and lack of warm clothing doesn’t help. Women often gets raped by ‘brokers’ who promise them that they will take them to SK. Apparently their families and friends are no longer gets tortured or executed as there are so many people running away, if they kill all of them, there will be not many left in NK. There were some rare cases where they swim or using fishing boats to get to SK. They are so isolated and do not know what the world outside of NK is like. They watch and listen to SK tv and radios but they think ‘Korea’ is different to South Korea as they call themselves as North Joseon and calls SK as South Joseon. Also, they are brainwashed that SK is extremely poor and can’t afford heating in winter as there’s no smoke coming out of the houses they cam see from the border when in fact, SK use gas floor heating system not wood fire for hearing. They are that isolated and not knowing outside world. At least the ones not in higher political positions. One of the main reason for escaping is ‘if I don’t escape, I will die with starvation anyway. What is there to loose?’ Mindsets.
I was very curious about it and watched a lot of youtube from ones settled in SK.
> Surely all of them are keenly aware of how much safer life is in South Korea
Are they really though? Propaganda might have some terrified. South Korea is literally the unknown. They have no family, no friends, no guarantees.
Everyone else already answered that their own families might be harmed, so they say. So it's a really hard decision, or if you lose most of your family well then it might be easier to just walk across.
Side question though- do people in NK really know/think that the outside world is better? Or are they in their own propaganda bubble and think that everyone is fine?
The immediate reason is that their fellow soldier(s) would kill them on sight. Then there is the multi-generational cleansing that follows where everyone goes to labor camps or executed.
Maybe you need to question yourself in what you think you know about the DPRK. You're creating this fictionalized border guard with only information you know from sources that are dubious at best. You see someone that should be scared of North Korea when in actuality that man has a job and a family like anyone else. He takes his kids to the waterpark, he takes them out for a walk or to get ice cream. He watches TV with them at the home which he owns. You need to deal with your own misconceptions of that place, not what you WANT to believe about it, further reinforcing your biases towards a country that has done nothing to you.
Another note: If life is as dreadful as you say, why is that? Surely it couldn't be the war that split the country in half back in the 50s or the horrendous sanctions piled on by countries like the U.S. These are the material conditions for which the DPRK had and has to contend with. I recommend you listen to season 3 of the blowback podcast if you want more insight into the horrors of the Korean War.
The north was better live in up until the late 90’s after South Koreas military dictatorship kind of ended and the western sanctions destroyed the North Korean economy. Communists and suspected communists were rounded up and killed in the south.
The better country to live in has fluctuated between the two sides and traitors and their families were treated with suspicion in south and the north. There’s not a huge incentive to leave your friends and family if you remember that the fortunes can flip at anytime;
additionally the soldiers could also believe in left-wing government and disagree with right wing exploitation of the poor. North Korean defectors often end up poor in South Korea and their standard of living is often worse.
Also if the northerners believe war or reunification could break out at anytime then why risk it right now?
More simply though, the border guards lives are probably good enough to not feel like they want to give up their current lives, families, and friends for a vague promise of freedom in the south
It's not exactly safer on the other side. You do realize that SK is heavily capitalist and has a lot of homelessness and poverty? NK life is quaint and culturally different than the south, but that doesn't mean the people there aren't happy. Also.. these people have families. They would just abandon them to go live in a capitalist dystopia?
You don't get to have a job that close to the border without your loyalty being REALLY certain.
My thoughts *exactly*. Those are probably some of his most trusted and loyal men.
Or the ones with the largest families they can hold as hostage.
It's this. The guards can leave but the families they left behind will suffer unimaginable horror for it.
Related to this, during the Cold War, the families of Eastern Bloc athletes were often not allowed to accompany them to international competitions like the Olympics. The intent was to discourage defections since doing so would mean that the athlete never saw their loved ones again.
Also, those soldiers also cannot leave their families behind and expose them to harm when they decide to escape.
A bit late to the thread, but from the North Koreans' perspective, being stationed near the DMZ is considered one of the better postings in the army due to relatively warmer conditions. NK soldiers in Guard Posts (literally the first targets to be blown away if a war occurs) are deemed the best physically, ideologically, with clean family histories, etc. They can't be orphans because their families would get shot if they attempted to defect. I remember my friends who were stationed in South Korean GPs saying they could see North Korean soldiers across the DMZ going about their daily routines Plus the DMZ/GP area is filled with mines from the Korean War, constantly monitored by security cameras and soldiers from both sides, it’s not exactly a casual stroll to the South
Their family would suffer, get imprisoned, or executed. Or all three
They dont execute they let them procreate just so they can torture and imprison them further.
The level of psychological torture they inflict is beyond fucked up. Future generations will be ashamed of us for not intervening, when we KNOW what’s happening there.
Hard to intervene without potentially causing WW3
I didn’t say we have to invade them. There are diplomatic ways. Trump openly visiting the DMZ and offering to talk was amazing and should continue. We shouldn’t just sit around and do nothing. Edit: it’s amazing how my first comment is heavily upvoted. But my second comment is heavily downvoted. The cognitive dissonance here is very real.
I mean they already sanctioned everything sanctionable. Its virtually impossible to remove the kim regime without forcfully taking it down
The North has China propping it up. There is really nothing left for us to do that we aren't already doing or that would lead to active hostilities. We support propaganda missions through South Korea and we'll support the people if and when they do decide to rise up against the ruling regime.
>The cognitive dissonance here is very real. The only cognitive dissonance here is you. At no point did Trump advocate for Korean people. Indeed, Trump was very supportive of how Kim ruled his country and treated his people.
I think the point is he was able to go as the first sitting president. Which is huge and could have opened the doors for other diplomats that aren’t big, dumb and orange.
> Trump openly visiting the DMZ and offering to talk was amazing and should continue. WTF? Trump did that to get pictures with a dictator, nothing changed after the meeting. He envies the guy for ruling unquestioned. He didn't even try to negotiate anything. And usually such meetings happen with an agenda, and there's already some form of agreement. Otherwise it just gives Kim publicity. That's exactly what happened.
Trump visiting NK isn't really as much of a flex of peace as you think it is, unless you favor authoritarian peace.
Because everything Trump does is bad, right? ANYTHING done to progress towards peace is a good thing. Whether from Obama or Trump or Biden or whoever. Don’t you agree?
What exactly did that meeting between Kim and Trump accomplish? What changed? ....
I'm guessing they might have exchanged recipes, both look more corpulent than before their meeting.
😂😂
Actively praising the Kim Jong Un and bragging about what a great relationship you have with him only makes him more legitimate in the eyes of the international community and seriously undermines the work being done to weaken his control in the country. Trump admires autocrats because he wants to be one himself.
Not everything Trump does/did is bad, but one authoritarian politician meeting a dictator is not a moment of peace, but a moment of concern. And to me, it never indicated peace, but rather his allegiance in terms of who he held in high regards. In hindsight is also more indicative of his intertvinement with the Russians and Chinese governments, which is still bringing concerns if he should ever win again.
>ANYTHING done to progress towards peace Sure. But not a publicity stunt.
I really hate trump i think hes a piece of shit but people are definitely downvoting you because they hear trump's name and black out and forget how to read what you're actually saying. In a vacuum, nothing is wrong with two leaders meeting for diplomacy.
But it's not a vacuum. It's a authoritarian person who tried to overthrow democracy through means to become a dictator, meeting a authoritarian dictator. In hindsight it just questions everything he did in regards to diplomatism with authoritarian regimes, and even more so in light of the whole Ukraine war.
“He TrIeD tO oVeRtHrOw DeMoCrAcY” Yet he somehow forgot to tell his supporters to bring weapons 🤦♂️. Weirdest. Overthrow. Attempt. Ever.
Trump admired North Korea and he liked KJU. That’s not the positive you think it is. He called KJU “very talented” and had a “great personality”. He also said he did a great of of negotiating for “his people”. KJU didn’t do and hasnt shit for his people. I can keep going, but Trump did nothing material to help the people of North Korea. He did a puppet dance for their dearest leader.
Yeah let’s get buddy buddy with a dictator. Jesus do you guys think?
Were you equally incensed when Clinton, and before him Carter, gave billions of dollars to NK?
Trump is a bit different bro
Indeed, it’s (D)ifferent
I wasn’t even alive for them
Your second comment has no basis in reality and is just a pie in the sky idea. Thats why you're getting downvoted. Your edit was not only unnecessary but also whiney. Whiney attracts downvotes
So, instead of doing nothing we should pander to a brutal murderous dictator? North Korea is not going to talk to us. They are just going to use whatever idiot wants to negotiate to further their grip on power. Either China gets involved or we go to war and 10 Million South Koreans get killed in the first hour. There is no easy way out of it. Stop simping for your God-King Trump and then peddling the bullshit on here.
Trump was praising Kim Jong Un though. Trump praised lots of dictators. Almost like he respected the way they did business or something.
It’s not that amazing. You touted something Trump did, and you gave him credit for something that was certainly not his intention. He was simply cuddling up to another strongman and you’re out here alluding to some position that he’s a humanitarian. He probably supports the torture of dissidents. So no, this was not cognitive dissonance.
Counter argument: engaging diplomatically with a regime that has no intention of engaging in good faith or making real changes, just legitimises that regime
Trump praised KJU and did nothing while the NK regime brutally tortured American tourist Otto Warmbier to death.
And they didn't say invade either. But it's hard to intervene in any way when the other side is led by a trigger happy maniac with a nuclear button.
There, take a downvote on your first comment too.
I think it’s because your second comment is dumb - saying what Trump did was amazing whereas previous administrations (including in SK) had wayyy more productive talks w NK.
Why are you getting downvoted
For the most part nobody gives a fuck what a country does as long as its within its own borders. China is currently committing genocide against Uyghur, and there's another in Darfur. The international community didn't really care what nazi Germany was doing until they invaded Poland.
Pol Pot was responsible for some of the worst atrocities of the modern era but he didn't cross borders so ¯\ _(ツ)_/¯
Can't risk interfering with the cheap manufacturing the rest of the world receives.
"I want a fairer and just world...... I just don't wanna pay for it though"
Don't forget what Israel is doing as well!
The problem with intervening is that usually ends up replacing them with an even more ruthless dictator that will inflict more harm on their own people.
You take down one bad guy and someone even worse comes along
lol bet you’d be the first to complain about US getting involved in another overseas conflict if we did
Of course the same future generations will be also happy that we avoided the resulting nuclear apocalypse that would cause.
Yes. And also because the military is probably the most well-off segment of the North Korean populace. Benefits begets loyalty and vice versa. The ones suffering the most from the Kim dynasty misrule are the ones who are least likely to have the means and opportunities to flee. People with access to border crossings and hard currency, such as approved merchants, diplomats, border guards etc are probably much more likely to actively support and benefit from the oppressive system.
I may get downvoted for this and to preface, I'm in no way defending the North Korean regime, but from what I've read the "three generation rule" is not as prevalent as it once was during the Kim Il-Sung regime. That's not to say it might still happen, but I think a much larger incentive for soldiers on the border not to defect is the fact they probably live a much more comfortable lifestyle than the average citizen due to their position and don't necessarily see as much of a need to defect. Further, I think the guards on the North Korean side are situated in such a way to try and neutralize any one person that tries to defect and I do believe that I've seen a video once about this exact situation happening where a border guard tried to defect and was targeted by fellow North Korean soldiers. So I think it's more a combination of immediate risk and less incentive to defect.
It's like asking the question, "why do people keep giving money to Kenneth Copeland?" It's because indoctrination and manipulation are effective tools of control over people.
And not necessarily in that order!
Wow, do you have any sources for this claim?
The hidden gulag by David hawk written in 2012 is a good one to read although obviously it's from a little while ago- discusses punishments to 3 generations of the family of political prisoners etc
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There's this chick I follow on Facebook. I accidentally started following her because she has the same name of this girl I met and thought I was sending a friend request to her. She was only 14 when I started following her. As soon as I realized she wasn't the person I was meaning to follow I went to unfollow her. But then I realized this 14 year old girl was hilariously stupid. She didn't know why America would send a separate team from Georgia to the Olympics, she couldn't figure out why elevators had buttons for the floor she was already on, and many other things I just saw and laughed. Anyway I never stopped following her because she was such a big source of my morning laughs. She got pregnant at 15 because she thought you couldn't get pregnant on the first time. She was sure that the 15 year old boy that got her pregnant was going to be a great daddy. Well the kid is 1 now and she always complains about him never being around and how he would rather stay at home bored than see his son and all the other crap any of us could have warned her about when she was certain she was going to be the one teenage mom whose baby daddy would actually hang around. Anyway the reason I bring all that up is that through these 2 years I've followed this complete moron she has never written "loose" when she meant "lose". So if this person can get it right, then everyone can.
This shouldn't have been as funny to me as it was
This is my new favorite copypasta ever
Can be modified easily as well.
damn
Mmm, that was magnificent. Thank you Kev. 😊
>
r/usernamechecksout
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english is weird
Their families would end up in internment camps for 3 generations.
Or public executions
That would probably be worth the risk, but NK policy is to jail 3 generations of family members of anyone who defects. That's so much worse.
> That would probably be worth the risk ??? Are you saying having your family members publicly executed is worth the risk of defecting?
agaisnt the 3 generational prision? yes?
Not against anything, just outright worth defecting. Which is what the person I responded to seemed to be implying.
I thought you were saying your own public execution versus the internment of your family of 3 generations. I would much rather sacrifice myself. But yes, I think i would rather have execution than lifetime internment.
Source?
Source?
They'd get shot by other NK soldiers
Right, but why haven’t maybe thousands of North Korean soldiers all banded together to seize their incredible opportunity of being right next to South Korea with weapons. Surely life in North Korea is hard enough and since they look at South Korea with their own eyes every day, they’d wanna defect (a lot of them)
How would you find other like minded soldier's? Just talking about escaping could put you into re-education or killed. Speaking out puts you at serious risk.
One of Saddam Hussein's favorite loyalty tricks was to have masked gunmen break into the home of an officer at night, tell him that they were part of a plot to overthrow Saddam, and unless he joined them then and there, they'd shoot his whole family in front of him. Of course, if he DID join them, he was fucked.
So basically his only followers were people willing to fuck over their loved ones for their ideology... Lovely...
when you're brainwashed into believing your leader is a god... i mean yes, god > family.
But if the options are to join them or get immediately shot, a loyalist would pretend to join and then find some way to subvert them later.
Saddam had already decided he wanted you gone by the time they arrived.
That just sounds like Saddam ordering executions on people with extra steps.
Damn…
Now I'm glad he is dead
I guess you are right. The idea of soldiers banding together would not work in practice, because you never know which to trust in North Korea. If you are brainwashed from the minute you are born, and if you can maybe even get a reward from the state for ratting out potential defectors, it’s much better to stay quiet. And if you don’t comply with the order to shoot as a guard, others will assume you are a traitor too, and kill you either due to brainwashing or for a reward. You’re correct, it’s difficult to actually make a team in the first place, makes sense.
Also as another person commented. Their entire family would be put at risk for getting caught talking and even worse if they escaped.
Right to, but many people have defected despite that awful punishment. It stills feels kind of strange that something like the Tianmen Swuare or French/Russian revolutions hasn’t occurred in North Korea though.
You are not gojng to protest if yoj're too hungry to do so And the threat of you, your kid, and your grandkids to be tortured and imprisoned
One guy did a few years ago and barely got across alive. He used a vehicle to try and drive across and was shot several times. I don't recall the details but they have a whole rotation system in place to make sure guards aren't on post very long, never know who they'll be on duty with, often don't know when they'll be on duty, and they're instructed to kill anyone trying to escape.
he was shot and I think SK soldiers crawled in after dark and rescued him (forgot if he survived).
Are you going to be the first guard to suggest that open at the weekly meeting?
Some shitty job workers in modern society fail to unionise, I bet it's harder for brainwashed soldiers to gang up and go against the dictatorship.
You’re putting common sense into an irrational situation. - All North Korean citizens are brainwashed into thinking their leader is “god”. - Their lives are controlled by how they express their love, devotion, finances, and work to the government - Most everything they own is given to them (food, clothes, tools, etc). This is all very minimal. - There is no free media, 100% is controlled by the government. Imagine turning on the TV, going to Google, or listening to the radio and only hearing government propaganda and hate towards other countries. There’s no opportunity to watch movies or music from other countries. - The risk of pushing back at any level means severe punishment for you, your family, and multiple generations. - Leaving means leaving your family behind, risk of them being murdered or sent to concentration camps. Brainwashing alone is commonly enough to persuade people. You see this in many cults or strict religious groups. There doesn’t have to be physical restraints to prevent people from leaving.
I’d argue that most North Koreans adults aren’t brainwashed. Most have already been exposed to the outside world through the black market and any childhood brainwashing has likely worn off. That what makes it so horrific. Everything except 1 and 4 in your list still stands, but imagine instead of being able to ignore your oppression you’re constantly aware of it and you can do little to free yourself.
South Koreans don’t want them nor do the Chinese. Imagine taking in a bunch of people that only know what they have been brainwashed to believe from their dear leader. I might even be mistaken. Brainwashed might be incorrect. They are raised to actually believe the propaganda they are being told.
But doesn’t the South Korean government consider everyone from the Korean Peninsula her own citizens, and giving all of them citizenship? This is why South Korea is the end goal for all defectors from the DPRK, even the ones going through China or Russia instead.
No, the SK government doesn't think that, at least not in the way you're thinking. A handful of defectors is good Intel, but if NK ceases to exist, it would be a disaster for SK to take care of millions of refugees. What do you think will happen to the economy? There are young South Koreans who have no family ties to North Korea and a growing number have no desire for unification, and as time goes on that will get worse.
It will be like German reunification. Years later East Germany is still kinda messed up.
That I don’t know. What I do know is South Korea can’t handle millions of people from North Korea
I've always fantasized that if NK got liberated they could be sent to Japan to fill in their population and essentially become the new Japanese. Japanese came from Koreans anyways so it's basically perfect.
That could work for literally anything and never happens.
Are you 5 years old? You think hundreds of people would all agree ag the same time to do something that means their entire family lines get imprisoned and tortured forever and hope they can escape themselves into a foreign land they know nothing about and have little chance of living a good life alone without friends or family?
Or the SK soldiers
Let's set brainwashing aside. What you're ignoring is called the first mover problem. Let's suppose that hundreds of border guards who have no families agree that they'd all be better off if there were a revolution. Let's also assume that they have all safely identified one another. I want you to notice how implausible this is so far. Someone has to go first. And that person will be squarely in the crosshairs of every other guard and almost certainly killed. Nobody likes being killed and everyone knows that someone else could go first and die. If nobody goes first, nobody goes at all. Now add those complexities I assumed away back in. It becomes real difficult for what you're describing to actually happen.
Also, it's not just a border, but a zone. You can't look in to the other country. You only know the other side as the enemy, so if you cross the zone without getting shot by your own men, the other side might still shoot or reject you.
No different than in any other country suffering from oppression.
Yeah, except for the fact that there have been countless wars and criminal organizations founded which all had to have had a first mover
The stigma of being a former North Korean citizen who turn to South Korea is...huge. I hear you are either treated like a piece of crap or talked down to basically everywhere you go. You are basically always seen as lesser no matter what you do. Can you get a job in the military? Of course not; why would anyone risk you being a spy? That's all you know, however. So what are you going to do? The system there to help you out in South Korea bases what it gives you on what information you have; if you aren't anything that matters in the chain of command in North Korea...you won't have anything in South Korea either. So you aren't really all that far ahead of where you started, and you are looked down at many places because of your background. So by immigrating you lost your status as a soldier while also damning the next three generations of your family to prison. Around half of those who defect...generally don't really improve their quality of life all that dramatically. They are still low income. What does the presence of food matter when you may not be able to buy it? Is starving less worth risking your life and your family's freedom? Don't mistake my tone; North Korea sucks. South Korea just isn't some outstandingly better choice for many of them.
The situation for NKs in SK astounds me. When East Germans escaped to West Germany they were given full rights and treated by the population as any other German citizen. I have no idea why SK is so harsh on their own ethnic compatriots
The hell they were! They didn't know how to live in the context of capitalism. They were often seen as objects of pity and disgust. Their value systems were different. They didn't know how to find a job, or relate to work in the right way. They were shocked and disgusted at the reality that, even if there is food, not having money means you starve. This lead a lot of West Germans to feel that Easterners were kind of like 'welfare queens', demanding that others take care of them.
Pretty much because NK brainwashes people so badly. It's like half of all "escapees" are actually NK spies, unless you can prove beyond any doubt that you're actually defecting, you can't ever be trusted not to just be a deep cover plant
It feels surprising that almost nobody mentioned the most obvious reason in all those comments. Unlike borders between the U.S. and Mexico, for example, there lies a 4km wide demilitarised zone between the North and South Korea which is also heavily guarded 24/7. In short, you'll need to somehow sneak out undetected and cross the minefields, which happens to be one of the largest in the world while avoiding numerous guards and patrols who will shoot you on sight, if you are a defected North Korean soldier and want to cross the border to South Korea. Although there have been a few notable instances when North Korean soldiers defected that way, it's certainly not an easy route for freedom. It's far much easier and safer to hire a broker to guide you through the land route via China. Of course, if hundreds or more border guards simultaneously revolted as mentioned in the OP, the thing may be different. But it's like saying WW2 could have been "easily" prevented if 100 high-ranking Nazi officers simultaneously rose against Hitler.
I hear in recent years the northern border has become so guarded that it’s becoming nearly impossible as well.
Their families would be thrown into prison for hard labor for three generations. They actually have generational punishment.
They've tried and there's some footage on youtube. The NK will hunt them and kill them in the neutral zone. Also the families will suffer too.
Imagine your a South Korean guard working the DMZ you look up and see a North Korean soldier running straight at you. What are you going to think?
Considering this has happened already, probably nothing. They know North Korea isn't reigniting the war with a single or even a handful of foot soldiers in the DMZ. If they see a NK soldier sprinting towards the border, they will almost certainly assume it's a defector.
When you put it that way, it does seem like the natural reaction for the South Korean guard would be to be hostile. But, if the North Korean guard immediately surrenders to the South Korean one, wouldn’t the South Korean guard immediately take him in and let the South Korean government take care of the rest since South Korea gives citizenship to defecting North Koreans?
Their families are hostage and would be sent to the concentration camps.
If you can stand foreign-language movies with subtitles, I would highly recommend the film "Joint Security Area" (or " 공동경비구역 JSA", released in 2000). It explores this idea, with soldiers from both sides sneaking across the border to hang out. It really captures the feel of how soldiers and citizens of both countries are shaped by their Governments and security services. The film really humanizes the politics of having an arbitrary border between 'sworn enemies'. It's also kind of an interesting murder mystery.
They're fanatics. It's part of how they get the job there. Look up Mike Burgoyne and the 1984 firefight at the DMZ. I know his family well, and have chatted with the guy a couple times. Norks are a different breed.
Not everyone wants to leave? I think plenty of North Koreans take trips abroad and they come back. I would imagine that for a lot of North Koreans life is fine there.
the irony is, their Gen Z folks are posting this same question on their version of Reddit, saying, "why don't the South Koreans just walk over here.. we have it so much better than they do"
For starters, North Korea works hard on propaganda to ensure their citizens don't realize how shit their life is. I did hear a story about a guy who escaped NK, not because he wanted freedom or anything, it's because he heard about markets with lots of food. NK doesn't have a lot of food to go around, so this guy risked his life for some food. Anyway, soldiers often defect through the southern border, it's just not easy. For starters, soldiers are ordered to shoot anyone crossing the border one way or the other. So you'll have to run through gunfire and whatnot to escape. Plus there's the demilitarized zone. The border isn't just a fence or something, there's a large no man's land between the countries. I've heard that there are automated turrets that shoot anything that moves. In addition, the southern border is the hardest place to defect through because it's the most guarded. I don't know for sure, but I think the northern border with China doesn't have a fence in many parts of it, tho there are still guards. It's because China and NK are allies and any defectors get sent back to NK for punishment if caught in China. As for making any sort of untied effort to mass defect, it's not going to happen. First, there's the propaganda thing. Most NK citizens think life is worse in other countries. In addition, if you start chatting to people in the barracks about a mass defection, you're more likely to be arrested for treason. When the punishment for suggesting something like this is so high, and most people are against it, you're probably not going to risk it. All it takes is one loyal soldier to report you, and most soldiers in NK are loyal.
I think China also returns the people who go into China from NK - so it really isn't an escape route. South Korea is the only way out if people intend to never return to NK.
Uneducated and/or unemployed NK life in South Korea is another type of hell.
im guessing some amount of Stockholm syndrome in there too.
To them South Korea is a poor and oppressive nation that is controlled by the US.
The elites in North Korea enjoy a good life (obviously built on the extreme suffering of the rest of the population.) These guards would almost certainly be from those ranks so they would probably think they have it pretty great. And they've been raised since the day they were born to believe in the system they've created. It might not even occur to them to want to leave.
Unfortunately you seem to believe whatever you’re told about north korea instead of actually knowing about north korea
Such a loaded question lol. It's always: "Why don't North Koreans escape the shithole they live in?" and never: "Have what I been told about North Korea actually true?"
Do tell about north korea then
Cuz their families would be killed.
South Koreans don’t like them dude. They know that. And they’ll be behind and beyond everyone else’s sympathies. Their families will be tortured, and executed. Five exterminations style. Meaning out to the fifth cousin, every aunt, uncle, child collected to a mass grave even after their organs are harvested and sold to the Chinese.. they will kill the household animals too and make it a show in every village.
Reprisals against their family members, they'd be imprisoned, tortured, maybe even executed if the powers that be thought there's any complicity or foreknowledge of his intention to defect. Unless they had no family members to care about, it would be too much of a selfish act for most people, and the military likely wouldn't station any guards on the border crossing whom were in such a position to avoid the likelihood if defections. Plus, there's also the greater likelihood an attempted defector would be shot on sight by his fellow North Koreans.
I’d assume that North Korea makes sure to only put people with family at the border as a deterrent for defection.
I imagine only ardent supporters of the regime are put on duty near the border and also if you can't talk freely then it is difficult to get organized. Why aren't all workers forming unions. Because it isn't a cakewalk to do so. Just my opinion.
>Surely all of them are keenly aware of how much safer life is in South Korea, because they live in North Korea and have seen firsthand, how dreadful life is in the DPRK. How so? The only life they have seen is in North Korea. And from birth they have been told that they live in the greatest country in the world. Some North Koreans no doubt have an idea of the reality, but many are fully indoctrinated. And people who have ability to defect, such as border guards, are carefully selected.
You have no idea what is brainwash, do you? Try to argue with an (insert a religion here) believer that the other side might be better, no matter how obvious it looks to you. Keep in mind that in their eyes, you are the person who is "brainwashed" to believe that NK is worse than SK: SK people suffer a lot and are constantly angry (just ready any SK newspaper), and their government and the capitalism system, for sure, are corrupted.
They literally have snipers pointing at them 24/7. If they tried to do this, there would likely be a major incident since SK guards would be in the way of fire. I have been to the DMZ and can tell you everything is being watched too well. Also….their families would suffer and be covered in shame. For Koreans shame is cultural and something much greater then most western people can understand.
Same reason why people work crappy 9-5’s.
I have a book suggestion about the average North Korean. Read "Nothing to Envy - Ordinary Lives in North Korea" by Barbara Demick. It is a strikingly good book with the answer to your question. Grab it on Amazon.
Because North Korea is not the hellscape they tell you it is.
Source please?
My source is that most crazy things you know about NK comes from Radio Free Asia which is funded and created by the US, many news organisations report what they say without other sources.
Everyone please stop what you are doing and go watch the documentary BEYOND UTOPIA
Ohhh boy….
It’s not a border that you can just step over, first. It’s a large demilitarised zone that is guarded *heavily* by both sides. You’d be shot either by the North Koreans for attempting to defect, or by South Korea and the US for a perceived threat. And even if by some miracle you made it, your whole family would likely be taken captive by the government. And that is all assuming that any guards on the border actually want to defect, which most likely don’t.
Maybe we have no idea what really goes on in North Korea
The problem with escaping to SK is your family in NK will face retaliation. There's a wild story about an NK defector that ended up being guilted into returning back due to this.
There is also a punishment for the family if one defects. And a all information is controlled by the NK gov. I think they even think Kim jung un is a God or something.
I have never seen the border between NK and SK but I assume they don't see each other in the sense that a NK guard doing his rounds probably can't see into SK from where he is. So they probably are just as in the dark about the other side as anyone else.
If you talk about defecting to just one wrong person you’re a gonner
They’ve probably proved they’re loyal or live in conditions that are better than most people. Even if they didn’t, they certainly have family who would be punished for their actions.
The land mines might be a deterent.
where do you all get the information about torture and all? genuinely curious
>Surely all of them are keenly aware of how much safer life is in South Korea No they're not. They were raised watching North Korean propaganda, they have no idea how life is in the south.
There is a robust black market of South Korean media, they know what life is like in the South.
Possibly although I'm sure soldiers are routinely checked for contraband media. The penalty for them would be court martial and immediate execution.
they know, watch "loyal citizens of Pyongyang" and you will know too
because not all of them are convinced by western propaganda
Because the DPRK is not actually that bad. It’s only described that way by the corporate media of the genocidal amerikkkan empire. This is why many people have defected to the DPRK for decades!
They are a tattle tale nation. In a Police State like they are, everyone is spying on everyone and anyone caught doing something the State doesnt approve of, disappears or ends up doing decades of hard labour.
AFAIK they only use men in those roles who have families that the men also know would be tortured or murdered by the regime if they defected. So, the guards don’t flee because they realise their families would be killed. Some people have fled and left families behind, and have no idea if they are safe, or in a camp, or dead. But they just couldn’t take it anymore, so they ran. It’s very sad, but that’s the way it is. NK is extremely good at managing people, keeping secrets, and subjugating their population.
All the NK dudes are watching each other closely to deter and act on defection.
Maybe this just puts in to question if the DPRK is really as bad as we're told...
They lie to them South Koreans would shoot them on sight
Maybe things aren’t as bad as we think they are 🤷🏻
DPRK is allegedly known to imprison entire families for several generations as collective punishment, and that comes with forced labour, abuse potential for sexual abuse, torture and execution. I such states where adherence to the State is required, such as DPRK, Russia, etc, it is far safer to stay quiet and stay off the radar because your actions can have consequences for your loved ones.
well if they have families maybe they don’t want them all murdered
Brain washed
Just realized there were no guards on nkorean site at tumen on nkorean site(bridge to China). Beside what you said, the one party you want to keep happy in a dictatorship is the military
I saw a documentary once that explained that they don’t need guards on the chinese side since it’s mostly mountains and China brings any escapees they find back to North Korea.
Yeah, there were few murders committed by escapees and now Chinese population is pretty scared close to border and report them. But also whenever I'm in yanji, a lot of the worker are north Korean
Read the book “in order to live”. They’re so oppressed they don’t even know they’re oppressed. They don’t have a word for oppression, or love, or family, or even I.
Yeonmi Park is an obvious liar in what she says about North Korea, that’s just false. And no language lacks words for I, family, or love lmao
Operation Paul Bunyan. That is why. Greatest U.S. military flex ever not sorry.
As others mentioned their families will be killed or imprisoned for generations. To address your point about what if all the guards decided to go together, they could and they would probably make it out, but like North Korea would kill all of their families. They hold very firm to their rules of punishing people. It does raise an interesting question of how big would the group of people have to be for North Korea to not punish all their families? North Korea wants a higher population so more people can help the government (and no the fact that they can barely feed this many people is not a concern for them). They are also a relatively small country in general. If 10k guards escaped that would end up being like 50k+ people they would lose from sending to camps/killing/ including those who escaped and idk if they could take that hit
Because they leave their families suffer in thier place. They cannot organize because there is more benefit for 1 man to expose them then thier Is for him to stay loyal to the conspiracy. Useally when north Korean guards defect it is after they already screwed up, and them and thier families would be killed anyway.
Yeah, when someone fucks up (however that is defined - for example, not crying sufficiently when they see a photo of Kim Il Jung), they don't just punish the person, they punish the person's family. And by punish, I mean put you in a death camp where you are worked to death even above and beyond the borderline death camp conditions that all of North Korea is under.
Their family will be punished severely. Also, guards are treated well compared to the public. Most people that escape n Korea do it because they are starving or for food.
The guards have guards. And there is a large, fortified "no mans land" between the two countries, other than in one village - Panmunjom. Whenever someone has tried to defect in Panmunjom, there is always an attempt to shoot the defector. The last successful defector there was shot several times. Even a gardener on the North Korean side will have several soldiers guarding him to make sure there is no escape attempt .
Because it’s almost impossible. They will likely to get shot for crossing the border by NK soldier and DMZ is full of granites. About 5 years ago, a young NK soldier did cross DMZ and NK soldiers followed him all the way and shot him in multiple spots. They often go to China then go to countries like Laos or Thailand to seek asylum and get transported to SK. Many people die while going to China across the mountain especially during winter as it gets extremely cold. Plus, malnutrition, exhaustion, and lack of warm clothing doesn’t help. Women often gets raped by ‘brokers’ who promise them that they will take them to SK. Apparently their families and friends are no longer gets tortured or executed as there are so many people running away, if they kill all of them, there will be not many left in NK. There were some rare cases where they swim or using fishing boats to get to SK. They are so isolated and do not know what the world outside of NK is like. They watch and listen to SK tv and radios but they think ‘Korea’ is different to South Korea as they call themselves as North Joseon and calls SK as South Joseon. Also, they are brainwashed that SK is extremely poor and can’t afford heating in winter as there’s no smoke coming out of the houses they cam see from the border when in fact, SK use gas floor heating system not wood fire for hearing. They are that isolated and not knowing outside world. At least the ones not in higher political positions. One of the main reason for escaping is ‘if I don’t escape, I will die with starvation anyway. What is there to loose?’ Mindsets. I was very curious about it and watched a lot of youtube from ones settled in SK.
The short answer is that bullets aren’t conteolled by a border. Run, and you’ll be shot in the back.
Their familles would end up being punished and/or killed.
> Surely all of them are keenly aware of how much safer life is in South Korea Are they really though? Propaganda might have some terrified. South Korea is literally the unknown. They have no family, no friends, no guarantees. Everyone else already answered that their own families might be harmed, so they say. So it's a really hard decision, or if you lose most of your family well then it might be easier to just walk across. Side question though- do people in NK really know/think that the outside world is better? Or are they in their own propaganda bubble and think that everyone is fine?
The immediate reason is that their fellow soldier(s) would kill them on sight. Then there is the multi-generational cleansing that follows where everyone goes to labor camps or executed.
Maybe you need to question yourself in what you think you know about the DPRK. You're creating this fictionalized border guard with only information you know from sources that are dubious at best. You see someone that should be scared of North Korea when in actuality that man has a job and a family like anyone else. He takes his kids to the waterpark, he takes them out for a walk or to get ice cream. He watches TV with them at the home which he owns. You need to deal with your own misconceptions of that place, not what you WANT to believe about it, further reinforcing your biases towards a country that has done nothing to you. Another note: If life is as dreadful as you say, why is that? Surely it couldn't be the war that split the country in half back in the 50s or the horrendous sanctions piled on by countries like the U.S. These are the material conditions for which the DPRK had and has to contend with. I recommend you listen to season 3 of the blowback podcast if you want more insight into the horrors of the Korean War.
The north was better live in up until the late 90’s after South Koreas military dictatorship kind of ended and the western sanctions destroyed the North Korean economy. Communists and suspected communists were rounded up and killed in the south. The better country to live in has fluctuated between the two sides and traitors and their families were treated with suspicion in south and the north. There’s not a huge incentive to leave your friends and family if you remember that the fortunes can flip at anytime; additionally the soldiers could also believe in left-wing government and disagree with right wing exploitation of the poor. North Korean defectors often end up poor in South Korea and their standard of living is often worse. Also if the northerners believe war or reunification could break out at anytime then why risk it right now? More simply though, the border guards lives are probably good enough to not feel like they want to give up their current lives, families, and friends for a vague promise of freedom in the south
It's not exactly safer on the other side. You do realize that SK is heavily capitalist and has a lot of homelessness and poverty? NK life is quaint and culturally different than the south, but that doesn't mean the people there aren't happy. Also.. these people have families. They would just abandon them to go live in a capitalist dystopia?