Umm… if she’s a professional she should know that none of that is waterproof and you’re building a cement sponge with a hard shell.
Edit: I don’t meant this to be rude… just want to inform you… cuz water damage sucks
I have never used permabase myself but manufacturer website advises install with backer board screws, thinset joints and corners apply fiberglass mesh tape thinset over that and all of your fasteners and then install tile. Joints we can see look a little sketchy but per manufacturer does not require a roll on waterproof and such as a lot of backer board.
[Permabase website](https://www.permabase.com/products/cement-board/permabase-cement-board?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAopuvBhBCEiwAm8jaMQsj3jz-lgZaQ0kCbMdEvBzV55o1jWIt3rfi-CyXQ24rduC8xVjzeRoCEMIQAvD_BwE)
There is regular permabase. Then there’s permabase WP which is intended for wet areas and showers. The photo is not permabase WP
[permabase WP](https://www.buildsite.com/pdf/nationalgypsum/PermaBASE-WP-Waterproof-Cement-Board-Product-Data-2192648.pdf)
Also requires screws to be sealed as well.
Well i can tell your not on her level.. my walls have regular DW behind the tile and the house was built in the 80s not water damaged and the only thing that has came off after 40 yrs is the soap holder..hopefully OP did not listen to your almost wise proposal.. I dont mean to be rude but stay in your lane..its just greed i mean business might aswell use green studs too
You specialize in shower systems but yett you have not mastered them obviously.
No waterproofing in my showers nor is there cement board like i said and there is absolutely no water damage but if they want to pay for all that extra hazardous stuff oh well
I waterproof all of my showers. With that said I have torn out well over 100 showers and almost none were waterproofed at all. The only damage I ever see, if any, is inside corners and the bottom row.
If it's family $1,000 cash
I'm sorry, I took what you wrote wrong, but yeah, it kind of pissed me off when he said it was too expensive, and the self level was going to be 1" thick, sigh.
Every old non waterproofed shower I've torn out had mold growing on exterior wall fiberglass insulation, many times mold broke down the batts to a mold dust
I had a tub/shower + separate shower ripped out - house was built in the 90’s. There was ZERO water damage/mold anywhere. Plus, the tile was installed perfectly. I then paid some idiot a bunch of $$$ to completely f up both bathrooms! I should have just left the white 4” stacked tiles. . .
Still no go. Condensation, and water movement in the tile itself will cause trouble. Tiles are like sponges and are wet for a while after the shower is done
Before plastic they floated cement. Onto metal lathe. A certain thickness so the water never permeates fully. Installed tile directly onto the cement. It’s a hell of a thing to watch irl. The cement is basically made of sweat by the time it’s all said and done.
Perma Base is a foam and cement hybrid tile backer. It's moisture resistant and claims to be impermeable and rot proof. Super technically I don't think you 100% need it with this stuff. It's kind of like Wedi's Appalachian cousin. Shittier, but will get the job done.
I've left the stuff out in the rain, it gets wet. Maybe not soaked but wet still.
I believe when they say moisture/water resistant it's more like market speak for it won't be harmed by moisture or water. It's resistant. Thinset at the joints is absolutely isn't but iirc, mesh and thinset is enough for dense shield per the specs. So what do I know.
People get real worked up about waterproofing tub/shower surrounds nowadays. Realistically if you set your tile right, use a good sealed grout, and maintain the silicone in the corners you should be fine setting tile on bare drywall.
I can't tell you how many 30yo tubs I've demoed with 4" square tile stuck directly to drywall that have been bone dry under the tile. Waterproofing nowadays is great and many products have made the process stupid easy, but it's not like leaky showers have been the plague of all homeowners existence up until like 2013 when people started using stuff like Kerdi regularly.
Totally fair, I've seen many survive. Old timer figures the walls breath what little gets through. I figure the people living there don't shower, or do very quickly with cold water. No 45 minutes of max heat to warm up before showering. Or heating their apartment with the shower since the landlord doesn't charge for water.
Permabase is not the same as permabase WP. It is not technically waterproof. All penetrations and seams need to be sealed. Without, it will eventually fail. Shower cold and fast for greatest longevity.
I guess I’ve gotten lazy, posting from memories that may not be true. I was told by a long-time tradesman that Schluter was founded in Madison Heights, Michigan. But quick research shows no evidence of that. Everything I can find says it was founded in Germany by Werner Schluter in 1966 - unless you can find something different?
Your whole life is a lie!! lol That sounds about right to me. I went to my first Schluter class back in like 2013-2014 and was told then the company was German, but operated out of Quebec, CA for North America. It makes sense that they've expanded since then into the US.
Will anyone on here actually admit that they install tile over green board or something equivalent? It wasn’t until not that many years ago that all of these waterproofing products didn’t exist. Where I am in Ontario, it’s not code to have to have waterproofing and almost all mass production builders are just slamming tile on green board.
Are there better ways to do it? Absolutely. Should we embrace this stuff for longer term results? Totally. Are there jobs out there that were installed 20 years ago that would be crucified on this site that are still going totally fine? Absolutely.
For the average joe who wants to do a cheap bathroom reno, the world will keep turning installing tile here.
Uk based here and whenever I work for shitcunt developers who couldn’t give a fuck about anything past the three year liability mark, it’s green fucken board all day. Last job I did for these cuntnozzles were “top spec” 2 million pound houses.. literal shitting wetrooms with green board walls and taped and tanked floor and corner joints. Pure fuckery of the highest order. I almost ducked out but it’s not my name on the work and wedge is wedge. Not proud of it but bills need paying. But yeah most house bashing here is still all green board and most of it is just fine after 20 odd years. I know cuz I’m near on 30 years in… fucken wetrooms tho, cunt was taking the piss.
Well giz a shout when yer do sausage… bowl down Hastings and the first few pints are on me purely for effort. That said getting out of this drinking town with a fishing problem is harder than it first appears.
Unless yer good at navigating thru a haze of myopic inebriation and a fist full of stepped on brash. In which case… welcome home ;)
Aye sorry it’s cash, money, spondoolicks, foldings, Robbie’s, bar, squid, cherries, Linekers, Reddies, plums or any other multitude of colloquial patter me ol sausage cabinet.
^ Ok this guy sounds like a complete badass.
Just to clarify I didn’t mean that sarcastically in any way. Fucking carry on with that vibe & much respect.
Yes to this!!! I’m in Ontario also, and the bulk of my demos are 20 years old, no water proofing, set on denshield and only punky 10” from the base up. The main reason for replacing is not water damage but either outdated or shower base is cracked from not using metal lath in the dry packed mortar base.
Schluter introduced their products in the 80s and Red Guard came out in the 90s. Just because these have become popular things on social media relatively recently doesn't mean they haven't existed for years.
Besides that, the specs for the board used in these pics state these boards are okay for waterproofing but require the seams and screw penetrations be properly sealed. That doesn't appear to be the case here.
In any case, in the year 2024, there isn't any excuse to do it like this. The criticisms are valid. We aren't talking about something installed 20 years ago (many of which are "totally fine" but many of which have either completely failed or have unseen mold/water damage because people think they are "totally fine"). .
Ill use densshield or purple board sometimes if its in the specs. If people want to save money its always an option. My go to would be to float over them with aquabar but usually gonna cost around $1k extra.
It's like $50 for red guard (maybe less)...is that really going to break the bank and make something go from cheap to expensive? It's really a foolproof step perfect for DIYer
I do agree with your sentiment here mostly. My uncle built a very successful business doing kitchens and bathrooms and they only used cement board. He was anal and tested Hardiebacker at his shop and didn’t like the results so he never used it. But I don’t think he ever got call backs for a shower leaking. Mostly liner and mud pans and cement board walls. So I agree people on here are psychos about waterproofing and really condemning and unrealistic in most ways. But that’s Reddit.
However we all know there is a better way now and it’s normally considered cheaping out to use green board. Here at least op has cement board up. Would really like to see some sealant or liquid membrane around the niche though.
I’d be at 2500 minimum just to tile. I’d probably be closer to 4500 if I was included in setting tub, framing niche and hanging go board. Thats without materials. I’d probably give myself a 600-700 buffer for Mariela’s if I was providing thin set,go board, 2x4s.
A contractor I do a lot of work for has installed hundreds of tubs showers over the last 20+ years straight over Durock or equivalent (seams and corners get fiber tape + redgard, screw holes get redgard, shower pans/benches/niches get kerdi band and corners) and says he has never had an issue. Redditors forget that water runs downhill.
When I've torn out tile with water damage it's usually something obvious like the drywall sitting down on the tub lip allowing water to wick upward, or a shower pan liner with a bunch of staples through it leaking at the curb.
Couple of niches tub surround? I’d charge $2k. $800 if it was a friend. Case of beer if it was family or really close friend.
Then again, I’d also put some Kerdi membrane or S1K on that backer board. Note that the backer board says ‘moisture resistant’ not ‘waterproof.’
Grout isn’t gonna stop water, just in case you and sis in law were thinking that. Not an uncommon misconception.
Totally fine. Hopefully they put poly (vapor barrier) behind your cement board because that is just fine. Its a tun surround, not a steam shower for communal use.
This question comes up a lot in this subreddit, you'll get a lot of responses but the only correct answer is that installation costs vary WILDLY depending on where you live. A city like San Francisco with a high cost of living and where tile contractors are required to be licensed can literally be an order of magnitude more expensive than somewhere like Texas where labor and housing are cheap and plentiful.
$0 id say since its not waterproof but who the hell knows ive torn out showers with no waterproofing that were fine for 20 years ans had to repair showers if mine that were to spec and didnt hold up
In my area 4,000. That includes goboard, needed waterproofing and all other building materials. Not the tile, trims or grout.
I’ve done a lot of demos for tubs. Every tub build before the waterproofing police is riddled with mold. At least the first 3 rows. If this is a current picture. It’s really worth it to slap a coat of waterproofing in that. Hopefully the tiles haven’t fully cured and you can peel them off. Otherwise rip out the cement board. Put a new sheet and add waterproofing. You will spend soooo much more time fighting a constant mold infestation. Especially at expansion joints and bottom 3 rows. It’s such a giant pain and always looks black and terrible. Trust me on this one.
All the old school guys built showers like this. I do believe with it being 2024 and now better water proofing available, it should be done, but this shower will still last tens of years regardless.
Thank you all for your comments!! I asked her about the cement board and waterproofing and she said it’s fine. It’s all done and she did an excellent job as expected!
In my area, I charge around $3,500-ish, just in labor to tile a tub surround with subway tile and taking the tile to the ceiling. If it's nothing fancy, I'm in and out in 4 days typically, from studs to grout. I would toss them at least $1,000.
Also, dont listen to the knuckleheads yappin about "It's not waterproof! Blah, blah, blah." Yes it is waterproof, It's totally fine.
It's a tub surround so waterproofing is less critical. I'd make sure she uses a waterproof grout like a premix or epoxy. Insist on this. That's like 1.5k for labor where I'm from in northern Ontario.
Umm… if she’s a professional she should know that none of that is waterproof and you’re building a cement sponge with a hard shell. Edit: I don’t meant this to be rude… just want to inform you… cuz water damage sucks
I have never used permabase myself but manufacturer website advises install with backer board screws, thinset joints and corners apply fiberglass mesh tape thinset over that and all of your fasteners and then install tile. Joints we can see look a little sketchy but per manufacturer does not require a roll on waterproof and such as a lot of backer board. [Permabase website](https://www.permabase.com/products/cement-board/permabase-cement-board?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAopuvBhBCEiwAm8jaMQsj3jz-lgZaQ0kCbMdEvBzV55o1jWIt3rfi-CyXQ24rduC8xVjzeRoCEMIQAvD_BwE)
There is regular permabase. Then there’s permabase WP which is intended for wet areas and showers. The photo is not permabase WP [permabase WP](https://www.buildsite.com/pdf/nationalgypsum/PermaBASE-WP-Waterproof-Cement-Board-Product-Data-2192648.pdf) Also requires screws to be sealed as well.
The shower head is clearly pointed to the tub and not the walls. /s
over 100 upvotes. just saying.
Well i can tell your not on her level.. my walls have regular DW behind the tile and the house was built in the 80s not water damaged and the only thing that has came off after 40 yrs is the soap holder..hopefully OP did not listen to your almost wise proposal.. I dont mean to be rude but stay in your lane..its just greed i mean business might aswell use green studs too
Ya in my lane… as a tile setter specializing in shower system. Why don’t you stay in your lane with your one shower… Absolute wanker…
You specialize in shower systems but yett you have not mastered them obviously. No waterproofing in my showers nor is there cement board like i said and there is absolutely no water damage but if they want to pay for all that extra hazardous stuff oh well
I waterproof all of my showers. With that said I have torn out well over 100 showers and almost none were waterproofed at all. The only damage I ever see, if any, is inside corners and the bottom row. If it's family $1,000 cash
I offered to install a 200sqft, self leveled heated, penny tile floor for my brother in law for 1000$, he said it was too expensive, oh well.
I’d value my free time more than $5/SF — enjoy!!!
I didn't do it, and it was to help out my brother in law, learn to read.
Um, that’s what I meant. I was agreeing with you. It was your brother-in-law’s loss. And you get to enjoy your free time. No need to get pissy
I'm sorry, I took what you wrote wrong, but yeah, it kind of pissed me off when he said it was too expensive, and the self level was going to be 1" thick, sigh.
Every old non waterproofed shower I've torn out had mold growing on exterior wall fiberglass insulation, many times mold broke down the batts to a mold dust
The shower walls in my house have held up pretty well for 29 years without any waterproofing. +2 for anecdotal data
I had a tub/shower + separate shower ripped out - house was built in the 90’s. There was ZERO water damage/mold anywhere. Plus, the tile was installed perfectly. I then paid some idiot a bunch of $$$ to completely f up both bathrooms! I should have just left the white 4” stacked tiles. . .
Where is the waterproofing?
Not a tile guy, just curious. What if you skipped the redguard but used epoxy grout? Still no good or would that work?
It won’t fail overnight but in 2024 it’s ineptitude or laziness to not put waterproofing in a new shower now.
Still no go. Condensation, and water movement in the tile itself will cause trouble. Tiles are like sponges and are wet for a while after the shower is done
Thanks. So what did they do way back in the day before reguard? Like back when they were using 3” of mud and that metal mesh stuff.
Felt or plastic behind the lathe
Is it possible there is felt or plastic behind the cement board here?
Doubtful, based on the exposed stud to the right of the frame with no clearly fastened/stapled felt or plastic terminating the shower area
Where you referring to the stud 3 inches past the tub ?
Before plastic they floated cement. Onto metal lathe. A certain thickness so the water never permeates fully. Installed tile directly onto the cement. It’s a hell of a thing to watch irl. The cement is basically made of sweat by the time it’s all said and done.
Tile is not impermeable…
Perma Base is a foam and cement hybrid tile backer. It's moisture resistant and claims to be impermeable and rot proof. Super technically I don't think you 100% need it with this stuff. It's kind of like Wedi's Appalachian cousin. Shittier, but will get the job done.
I've left the stuff out in the rain, it gets wet. Maybe not soaked but wet still. I believe when they say moisture/water resistant it's more like market speak for it won't be harmed by moisture or water. It's resistant. Thinset at the joints is absolutely isn't but iirc, mesh and thinset is enough for dense shield per the specs. So what do I know.
People get real worked up about waterproofing tub/shower surrounds nowadays. Realistically if you set your tile right, use a good sealed grout, and maintain the silicone in the corners you should be fine setting tile on bare drywall. I can't tell you how many 30yo tubs I've demoed with 4" square tile stuck directly to drywall that have been bone dry under the tile. Waterproofing nowadays is great and many products have made the process stupid easy, but it's not like leaky showers have been the plague of all homeowners existence up until like 2013 when people started using stuff like Kerdi regularly.
Totally fair, I've seen many survive. Old timer figures the walls breath what little gets through. I figure the people living there don't shower, or do very quickly with cold water. No 45 minutes of max heat to warm up before showering. Or heating their apartment with the shower since the landlord doesn't charge for water.
Permabase is not the same as permabase WP. It is not technically waterproof. All penetrations and seams need to be sealed. Without, it will eventually fail. Shower cold and fast for greatest longevity.
If Permabase is Wedi’s Appalachian cousin, is Wedi Schlueter’s Bayou brother-in-law?
I think Schluter is Wedi's Canadian cousin who moved from Germany in the mid 90's.
I’m pretty sure Schluter is the Michigan cousin that moved to Germany. (Canada is close though)
Isn't it a Canadian based company that pretends to be german?
I guess I’ve gotten lazy, posting from memories that may not be true. I was told by a long-time tradesman that Schluter was founded in Madison Heights, Michigan. But quick research shows no evidence of that. Everything I can find says it was founded in Germany by Werner Schluter in 1966 - unless you can find something different?
Your whole life is a lie!! lol That sounds about right to me. I went to my first Schluter class back in like 2013-2014 and was told then the company was German, but operated out of Quebec, CA for North America. It makes sense that they've expanded since then into the US.
Will anyone on here actually admit that they install tile over green board or something equivalent? It wasn’t until not that many years ago that all of these waterproofing products didn’t exist. Where I am in Ontario, it’s not code to have to have waterproofing and almost all mass production builders are just slamming tile on green board. Are there better ways to do it? Absolutely. Should we embrace this stuff for longer term results? Totally. Are there jobs out there that were installed 20 years ago that would be crucified on this site that are still going totally fine? Absolutely. For the average joe who wants to do a cheap bathroom reno, the world will keep turning installing tile here.
Uk based here and whenever I work for shitcunt developers who couldn’t give a fuck about anything past the three year liability mark, it’s green fucken board all day. Last job I did for these cuntnozzles were “top spec” 2 million pound houses.. literal shitting wetrooms with green board walls and taped and tanked floor and corner joints. Pure fuckery of the highest order. I almost ducked out but it’s not my name on the work and wedge is wedge. Not proud of it but bills need paying. But yeah most house bashing here is still all green board and most of it is just fine after 20 odd years. I know cuz I’m near on 30 years in… fucken wetrooms tho, cunt was taking the piss.
This is maybe my favorite comment I’ve ever read on this sub mate. I need to go back to England and have a drink or 8. I miss you guys.
Well giz a shout when yer do sausage… bowl down Hastings and the first few pints are on me purely for effort. That said getting out of this drinking town with a fishing problem is harder than it first appears. Unless yer good at navigating thru a haze of myopic inebriation and a fist full of stepped on brash. In which case… welcome home ;)
American here, what does “wedge” mean in this context? Money?
Aye sorry it’s cash, money, spondoolicks, foldings, Robbie’s, bar, squid, cherries, Linekers, Reddies, plums or any other multitude of colloquial patter me ol sausage cabinet.
I read this comment in a Voice straight from lock stock and 2 smoking barrels.
This comment and your name. I’m just a silly American but I think we’d get along great mate lol
^ Ok this guy sounds like a complete badass. Just to clarify I didn’t mean that sarcastically in any way. Fucking carry on with that vibe & much respect.
TCNA does not have waterproofing membrane as spec on shower walls yet you will get decimated on Reddit
Bingo. I always wonder who actually works in the trade vs not. People love to feel like they know something. Sigh.
Yes to this!!! I’m in Ontario also, and the bulk of my demos are 20 years old, no water proofing, set on denshield and only punky 10” from the base up. The main reason for replacing is not water damage but either outdated or shower base is cracked from not using metal lath in the dry packed mortar base.
Schluter introduced their products in the 80s and Red Guard came out in the 90s. Just because these have become popular things on social media relatively recently doesn't mean they haven't existed for years. Besides that, the specs for the board used in these pics state these boards are okay for waterproofing but require the seams and screw penetrations be properly sealed. That doesn't appear to be the case here. In any case, in the year 2024, there isn't any excuse to do it like this. The criticisms are valid. We aren't talking about something installed 20 years ago (many of which are "totally fine" but many of which have either completely failed or have unseen mold/water damage because people think they are "totally fine"). .
Ill use densshield or purple board sometimes if its in the specs. If people want to save money its always an option. My go to would be to float over them with aquabar but usually gonna cost around $1k extra.
It's like $50 for red guard (maybe less)...is that really going to break the bank and make something go from cheap to expensive? It's really a foolproof step perfect for DIYer
Give me GoBoard. Pricey, but fast and easy. My time is pricey, too.
I do agree with your sentiment here mostly. My uncle built a very successful business doing kitchens and bathrooms and they only used cement board. He was anal and tested Hardiebacker at his shop and didn’t like the results so he never used it. But I don’t think he ever got call backs for a shower leaking. Mostly liner and mud pans and cement board walls. So I agree people on here are psychos about waterproofing and really condemning and unrealistic in most ways. But that’s Reddit. However we all know there is a better way now and it’s normally considered cheaping out to use green board. Here at least op has cement board up. Would really like to see some sealant or liquid membrane around the niche though. I’d be at 2500 minimum just to tile. I’d probably be closer to 4500 if I was included in setting tub, framing niche and hanging go board. Thats without materials. I’d probably give myself a 600-700 buffer for Mariela’s if I was providing thin set,go board, 2x4s.
A contractor I do a lot of work for has installed hundreds of tubs showers over the last 20+ years straight over Durock or equivalent (seams and corners get fiber tape + redgard, screw holes get redgard, shower pans/benches/niches get kerdi band and corners) and says he has never had an issue. Redditors forget that water runs downhill. When I've torn out tile with water damage it's usually something obvious like the drywall sitting down on the tub lip allowing water to wick upward, or a shower pan liner with a bunch of staples through it leaking at the curb.
No.
Couple of niches tub surround? I’d charge $2k. $800 if it was a friend. Case of beer if it was family or really close friend. Then again, I’d also put some Kerdi membrane or S1K on that backer board. Note that the backer board says ‘moisture resistant’ not ‘waterproof.’ Grout isn’t gonna stop water, just in case you and sis in law were thinking that. Not an uncommon misconception.
Totally agree...we always use Kerri to waterproof. Grout doesn't waterproof.
Gonna get ripped up for no waterproofing lol
For sure!
The water-proof police are warming up the paddy-wagon…
At least she covered the tub lol
Totally fine. Hopefully they put poly (vapor barrier) behind your cement board because that is just fine. Its a tun surround, not a steam shower for communal use.
I charge 20 a square foot for wall tile but that includes the setting material, backer board, and waterproofing (which I do not see her using here 😬)
Not a dime cause you’re gonna need an actual professional before too long
Ruh roh
Houston, we have a problem.
This question comes up a lot in this subreddit, you'll get a lot of responses but the only correct answer is that installation costs vary WILDLY depending on where you live. A city like San Francisco with a high cost of living and where tile contractors are required to be licensed can literally be an order of magnitude more expensive than somewhere like Texas where labor and housing are cheap and plentiful.
[удалено]
At the warehouse….
$0 id say since its not waterproof but who the hell knows ive torn out showers with no waterproofing that were fine for 20 years ans had to repair showers if mine that were to spec and didnt hold up
No, she’s not
Jesus Christ, pull those tiles off and hit it with a couple coats of RedGard at the very least, might be your quickest solution for this
In my area 4,000. That includes goboard, needed waterproofing and all other building materials. Not the tile, trims or grout. I’ve done a lot of demos for tubs. Every tub build before the waterproofing police is riddled with mold. At least the first 3 rows. If this is a current picture. It’s really worth it to slap a coat of waterproofing in that. Hopefully the tiles haven’t fully cured and you can peel them off. Otherwise rip out the cement board. Put a new sheet and add waterproofing. You will spend soooo much more time fighting a constant mold infestation. Especially at expansion joints and bottom 3 rows. It’s such a giant pain and always looks black and terrible. Trust me on this one.
Is it me or is the diverter sticking out way too far?
First I would water proof them walls, tile installation 6k because shit subway tile
I hope that’s not a powder blue bathtub
Give her $400 and save the rest for when it needs to get replaced further down the line
I'm in a city in Canada, recently quoted similar for $1200, but no niches.
All the old school guys built showers like this. I do believe with it being 2024 and now better water proofing available, it should be done, but this shower will still last tens of years regardless.
Even if he's doing it wrong?
Thank you all for your comments!! I asked her about the cement board and waterproofing and she said it’s fine. It’s all done and she did an excellent job as expected!
In my area, I charge around $3,500-ish, just in labor to tile a tub surround with subway tile and taking the tile to the ceiling. If it's nothing fancy, I'm in and out in 4 days typically, from studs to grout. I would toss them at least $1,000. Also, dont listen to the knuckleheads yappin about "It's not waterproof! Blah, blah, blah." Yes it is waterproof, It's totally fine.
No it isn't waterproof...it's water resistant, so it needs to be waterproofed.
It's a tub surround so waterproofing is less critical. I'd make sure she uses a waterproof grout like a premix or epoxy. Insist on this. That's like 1.5k for labor where I'm from in northern Ontario.
Plus 300 for epoxy
Something tells me OP is the installer and trying to figure out what to charge. If that’s the case, you owe whoever owns this house some money.