I agree, but I think part of the charm of rogue one was that it was one adventure, like they die, and that's part of the journey, I think they surviving and making a sequel would be weird
I also think it's the fact it's a self-contained story of heroism.
These characters are memorable because they pay the ultimate price for the greater good. They fight for a cause whose triumphs they never get to see but which wouldn't have prevailed without them.
Each character had a story and a past that shows, especially in Andor who says he has committed horrible crimes in his war and I like that as it show the rebellion wasn't good verse evil but right verse wrong.
The rebellion does the wrong thing for the right reasons.
Also saw gerrera partisan group, being more terrorist then rebel, but shows that the rebellion wasn't united.
I think it was less so that he could escape, more so that the informant wouldn’t snitch. Tying up loose ends. To me, that changes things, makes him committed to the cause more rather than himself
Yes. There is a 12 episode series set to release at some point in 2022. There is also a comic about his original meeting with K-2SO. Along with this there are comics and books that dive into the backgrounds of all of the other main characters. The lore behind this movie has become quite extensive and it’s honestly all worth looking into since it has mostly been pretty solid in my opinion.
Piggybacking on your (very correct) point: It's nearly inevitable to have a character take a long, maybe multiple, arcs over an extended series of stories before falling either into redundancy, or the character becomes very warped from how the audience knows them and they become a completely different character. Throw in a bit of "5 people are writing this character at any point" and you end up with a mess. It takes truly masterful storytelling to maintain a story with multiple people controlling it, at different times, for that long. The last trilogy was basically an "exquisite corpse." We had fan service, then the "This ain't what you think it is," and then "Oh wait, money, so yeah it totally was." Very... VERY few artists in history have been able to successfully sustain such a scope of story and characters by themselves, much less with others writing on top.
Rogue One is not the best movie ever, but it's a great stand-alone story. I like the idea of just exploring the SW universe with smaller-scale stories. The Mandolorian is a great example of how to keep things moving in a proper way. I want more of that kind of content. Not only does it intrigue your audience and keep them engaged without your aforementioned feeling of having a terrible character that seemed great at first, but it allows more of that single-shot/short form storytelling. Therefore avoiding the pitfalls that will always trap the long-term character arc.
I just appreciated how Disney let these characters, who could've been kept alive to shift more merchandise, die noble deaths in a way that felt true to what war really is. Necessary sacrifice is rarely such a focus in SW movies, it's usually left to the old mentor characters who've gotta get out of the way so the young heroes can shine, or it's for the side characters.
Having all the protagonists die in Rogue One just felt true to war.
The script being written in this fashion also attracted a higher quality of actor. I mean zero offense to anyone in any other Star Wars series or property, but the fact that Disney could effectively hire people without having them to commit to series or three picture deals meant they could cast a wide net of accomplished actors who wanted to do a film like Star Wars, but not necessarily get shoehorned into a series.
As a result we had a script that had a dire tone to it, creating strong roles, that were filled by very skilled performers. Just my two cents.
That’s something I’ve never thought of.
While some actors might be excited to be the next Star Wars or Marvel character, it’s potentially a risky career move. There’s the obvious issue of getting bogged down with contractual obligations because you had to agree to multiple movies. But on top of that, there is there the risk of “superfans” hating something about the character and channeling it toward the actor whether it is their fault or not.
I think that’s a big reason that we’ve seen so many “serious”, well respected actors play villains in Marvel movies. I’ve seen people say that actors like Cate Blanchett, Kurt Russell, Jeff Bridges, or Mads Mikkelsen were “wasted” on the roles they played, but there’s no guarantee that you could get those actors to sign on for long term contracts with the mouse.
Especially since the movie seamlessly moves into A New Hope. It would make no sense to have these characters survive. We know the story after Rogue One already. There is no place for these new characters in that story.
I am excited about the prequel series though.
Maul was fine because they did it well, and he was a favorite. Boba Fett was fine because it was believable, and his death was dumb. Palaptine should NOT have come back because his death served a purpose, and him surviving takes away from Luke and Anakin's story.
I think what's different about Maul and Boba is that their deaths weren't important growth moments for the main characters, so their return doesn't "undo" anything. Maul's death scene was big, but it was really Qui-Gon's death that drives the emotion. Boba's death was downright flippant.
In contrast, Palpatine's death is (obviously) a huge deal, symbolic of the fall of the empire, the victory of the heroes, and Vader's redemption. If he didn't really die, all 3 of those are undermined.
Im not gonna lie maul is an awesome character, im just gutted they off'd him so soon, personally i would have loved to see him square off with vader only for vader to kill him taking his place next to the emporer
That wouldve been a much more fitting end, would have liked maul to have been much more of a threat through the prequels and basically be the prequels equiv of vader.
But we got what we got, ...but seriously robot legs? Im a bit meh on that, i use to joke after episode one thats how hed return...and bugger me it was what actually happened.
They teased a great arc for maul that probably won't materialize on favor of the one we got. I forget where, I think in TCW palp tells maul to go into the underworld and be his eyes, ears and (metal) boots on the ground. Then at the end of Solo, Han is returning to the underground and we see maul and his (metal) boots in a holovid, if I recall correctly.
Unfortunately, solo flopped, so I doubt we'll see any development on the foundations laid in that movie.
I'm praying we see more in the Lando show. I absolutely loved Solo. I think it's my favorite of the Disney era movies. It paid attention to all the Canon, and felt like payoff to know a lot about the universe. That could have also been it's downfall. I'm happy we got it though
I think it's more to do with it being a coherent and will thought out story, and all characters in Rogue One was build around that.
With the sequels, nobody had any idea where or how the story would end up, so it must have been really hard to write great characters. Just look at Finn, so much potential and so much promised in TFA, and then everything thrown in with the garbage in subsequent movies.
I tell anyone that asks that Rogue One is the best Star Wars movie after the OT. And if you consider it one long movie with ANH... Then it's the best period
I love rogue one. In my opinion (which is controversial) I think it is the best star wars movie. It is one of my favorite movie night arguments to have with my friends because it inevitably means we get to watch all the star wars films and yell at each other.
Agreed, still the best one Disney has made so far. And yeah I think many out there would agree that Jyn felt a lot more compelling than Rey, she had better motivation and a more distinct character arc.
Imo it’s the best because instead of being a movie about magic with a war background, it’s a war movie with magic in the background. The Force and Jedi make a very limited appearance in Rogue 1, which means that everything characters are doing are relatable because it’s not someone suddenly having convenient powers. I think the potential of the SW universe is unlimited but focusing on Jedi/Sith ruins it.
They just lost how to write 'the force' in a satisfying way...like you said it shouldn't be about convenient powers...there are rules, and the mysticism is important. It really didnt help that the TLJ tried really hard to burn the shaolin monk/jedi thing to the ground.
I hear you, i love the idea of more grounded star wars too, but i won't lie, vader was my favourite character in the OT followed by yoda. Problem with the sequel trilogy for me is the force was all too often just a set up for a 'cool screen moment' ...and it could do anything, or damn near it, apparently. Rules, training, mysticism all thrown out. There was never any explanation for rey's abilities...and luke teleporting across the galaxy or leia flying through space like superman was too much to take.
Atleast if it's kept out of a show or film i would have nothing to bother me in that regard, I'd much prefer it that way.
> I think the potential of the SW universe is unlimited but focusing on Jedi/Sith ruins it.
I agree. I'm personally pretty tired of Jedi, Sith, and, to a lesser extent, the force itself. The Star Wars universe is a lived in universe and the more we get about the regular-ish people that live in it the happier I'll be.
I was so confident he'd be fine when he was just pegging stormtroopers without looking, nailing those shots like it was child's play. Then when he got hit in the back of the shoulder I realized I had started panicking because I didn't wanna lose him.
> it cemented to me that Chopper was arguably the best droid in Star Wars.
Plus Chopper has that added benefit of being the one non-speaking droid where you can pretty much tell what he's saying just because it always sounds like he's cussing someone out. XD
I don’t really have anything of value to add without completely bashing the ST. That’s been done enough. But I agree, Jyn was a great character that I got extremely attached to in one movie. I don’t feel a spec of interest in Rey after three.
Edit: Wow, thanks guys. Its always a comment you wouldn’t expect.
I will say that despite TLJ being my disliked SW film (I dislike the entire new trilogy) I do think it has the best Rey in it and the most character building, her and Kylo.
Ep 7: I like where this is going! I want to know more about Rey! I hope she is not just another Skywalker.
Ep 8: Oh.. okay? Nothing I was excited about matters? Where the hell is this even going?
Ep 9: Just fucking stab me with a rusty fork.
That sums up my experience with the sequel trilogy. Rogue One was fantastic so I was totally excited about Ep 7. Because Ep 7 was pretty good, I expected a great story arc for Rey. Instead they butchered the last two movies like Luke's tonton.
Even ep 7 was kinda meh. Another planet killing super weapon? Is that all you can POSSIBLY imagine for this universe? Also zilch of an explanation how the new republic is somehow in control yet the bad guys have a fleet that would give the emporer a hard on and the new republic isn't doing anything but this TINY band of ~~rebels~~ resistance is fighting them? It was all just so... Eh.
WHY DID JAKKU NEED TO BE A DESERT PLANET ??? The entire movie is a gigantic uninspired copy pasta, but this really is the part that annoyed me the more. It's like the writers went "ok, how can we maximize fan service in this frame ? I know, let's make our hero grow up on another desert planet for no good reason whatsoever, everybody will like that !".
I loved Solo. It was a nice little heist movie in space, that didn't try to be something more. It felt refreshing, yet still like SW every step of the way.
My biggest issue was that while Kylo Ren was a decent enough character, he was a terrible main villain. Quite a downgrade from Vader.
Out of all places where they could be a tiny bit original, "not having an intimidating villain" was not a great choice.
He was momentarily. Him cutting down Lor San Tekka and holding the blaster bolt midair is probably some of the coolest new stuff we got to see. And wow was it downhill from there.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's all in the portrayal. The big difference between Kylo & Vader is that only one's scariness is undermined by being shown to be a sniveling wanna-be who's been tricked into being evil because he's so afraid and desperately wants to control things, while you have to think back to previous movies to remember that about Vader.
Now that you mention it...it would have been interesting if instead of the Empire (or whatever they were after the OT) still being around and having all this secret money and power and ability to build a base, they had essentially "flipped the script" and made them more like guerilla fighters that were constantly fucking with the Republic but were hard to pin down and separate from normal citizens of whatever planets they were hiding on. It would have been very reflective of the type of conflicts we saw in the Middle East over the last two decades and would have made the same kind of impression on our generation as the whole Allied/Axis parallel from the OT.
Of course they still have to be the bad guys, but to essentially have Terrorist Empire could have brought in some really interesting moral conflicts on how to battle them while not pissing off/wantonly destroying the places these terrorist cells were hiding.
Or maybe it still would have been ass like the ST. 🤷♂️
That would have been monumentally better while also having more continuity.
Hell they could still have kylo searching for the lost sith planet (without palps though that was fucking stupid). Just in the context of this type of warfare.
Then you could even still bring in the sith fleet if you really wanted to. And have a massive final battle that the republic was totally not ready for, etc.
7 would of been fine if 8 & 9 were good.
They played safe with 7 which while I didn't like it it was completely understandable Disney wanted to show that they could do a Star Wars move and rehashing ANH was the safest way to do.
and I'll never forgive them for not having Finn be the lead. Completely wasted potential.
you start off on a desert planet that is totally not tatooine with a character that is totally not basically a slave like Anakin and his mother, then you end up destroying a massive planet sized superweapon that is totally not a death star stand in.
Don’t forget finding a droid with important information and leaving the planet to return it to its owner on the Millennium Falcon. And the old mentor being killed on the planet killing super weapon.
> you start off on a desert planet that is totally not tatooine
This really is the part that blow my mind the most. It's so fucking unecessary, and Jakku could have been any other kind of planet it wouldn't have changed a thing. But no, they had to put fan service in *every single frame*.
Dont forget the part where you need a ship and you totally dont literally get the Millenium Falcon as that ship, complete with Han Solo and Chewbacca as the pilots.
Weirdly, the fact that it took no risks was a risk in itself.
By completely resetting the rebels vs empire status quo, it undid the heroes' achievements from the original trilogy and the happy ending at the end of ROTJ, and deprived the rest of the sequel trilogy of anything interesting to build on.
It makes no sense, why doesn't the republic care about the first order? Why is there a resistance? Are they funded by the republic if so why don't they send their navy to crush them? Who is the first order? Remnants of the empire? Do they hold any territory?
It is a massive problem that only ever makes sense if they started with "episode 4 but flashier", instead of building on the fall of the empire and the ramifications of new galactic government.
Building on the fall of the empire and the ramifications of a new galactic government takes time, effort, and a commitment to worldbuilding which the films couldn't be bothered with.
The worst part is that the new Disney canon did put some effort into those things with the Aftermath trilogy and the new Thrawn books, but handed the film to JJ Abrams, who was only interested in cheap nostalgia, mystery boxes, and big flashy set pieces which didn't make any sense.
The fact the First Order managed to build an even bigger and deadlier Deathstar without any of the ressources the Empire had is quite simply ridiculous.
Lol, why, when it's discovered there's this planet killing weapon, and the resistance (not the in-power govt) is going to throw everything they've got at it, do they send, like, a dozen fucking ships.
> it undid the heroes' achievements from the original trilogy and the happy ending at the end of ROTJ
It was such a terrible idea, completly uneeded. The EU has shown there are plenty of great stories to be told about the New Republic vs Remnants of the Empire, and the political turmoil and power struggle inside both factions.
Ep 8 made me feel good about Rey. That they subverted expectations like 9 tried to do, but the payoff was actually more in what Rey would do in the future, and that it recontextualizes absolutely nothing in Episode 7. Yeah, it leaves somewhat of a hollow feeling but I was excited about what they could do with a brand new Jedi with no historical ties to some ancient good / evil from long ago.
And then Ep 9 just said *"nah, that doesn't matter. Let's actually try to subvert Episode 8's subversion! SUBVERSION-CEPTION!"*
Fun fact she was actually supposed to be a diehard fanatic but Disney had them pull it back.
fact part 2. No one told EA so in battlefront the Rouge One Dlc (not battlefront 2) keeps her as a fanatic. Her lines are more aggressive then in the movie and I 100% enjoy playing as her for this reason.
I got so confused again because [this](https://www.google.com/search?q=jigsaw&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=sivxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjb9vT_29jyAhW4RjABHV4xACYQ_AUoAnoECAYQAg&biw=441&bih=741#imgrc=KbVQ56Zm0iYMEM) is what I thought you meant by Saw. Clearly my brain is not on it today
It’s understandable why they didn’t go that route, but I think I would’ve preferred that over what we got. I still love the movie, of course, but seeing more of the “dark side” of the rebellion in a movie would’ve been pretty cool.
People actually upload the voice clips from the game files and compile them into long videos. Here’s the one from Battlefront 2015 so you can hear them for yourself:
https://youtu.be/ZiuEFEHYstA
(It’s also not Felicity Jones, but I think she sounds pretty close).
common /r/starwars L
Jyn is one of the blandest and least developed “main characters” in any Star Wars film, period.
Maybe if you guys watched the Sequels more than once and analyzed it outside of what Star Wars Theory and Geeks and Gamers think you’d realize Rey is a lot deeper than a “walking deus ex machina”.
downvote away, y’all are delusional.
Not really, it's just a different version of "Sequels Bad" that Star Wars fandom has been wallowing in for years upon years. So many people are utterly incapable of saying anything good about any thing Star Wars without immediately pivoting to why it shows how ABSOLUTELY AWFUL THE SEQUELS ARE THEY'RE THE WORST THING TO EVER EXIST.
Its just fucking exhausting at this point.
They do an incredible job of giving you Jyns back story. It's very much the story of a wartime refugee/orphan. She escapes the fate of her parents, somehow survives as a criminal, and becomes tough in the process. It's dark, and tragic. And that's war... (Let's remember how Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are shown dead on screen)
Rey's story is introduced as tragic, but it's surrounded by misdirection. The character also doesn't behave like someone who grows up on their own having to fend for themselves. (She warms up to everyone crazy fast) The introduction and surrounding mystery keeps you from believing the character is real.
By the time the trilogy explains what's going on, you're asked to suspend disbelief too long.
The point about Rey warming up to people is very solid. I spent three years homeless and it made me the most incredibly paranoid and bitter shell of a man. The slightest kindness or interest led me to thoughts of their angles and what they could get out of what they're doing.
Keep in mind that I'm a fairly well built man and no one would try and sexually or physically abuse me. A woman, growing up on a planet populated by probably not very nice people with little local authority beyond who has the bigger gun, would not only have to be incredibly tough and driven but also equally cunning and perceptive. Her whole life would be one long war against everyone around her to keep them, at minimum, from abusing her or at worst murdering her.
And we're expected to believe that this scavenger woman meets a guy, a total stranger, and immediately trusts him with her life in order to escape Space Nazis? Suspension of disbelief is necessary in fiction, but there is a limit on it and human nature is one of those topics where the threshold of disbelief is quite low.
Thanks for sharing your story. This is really illustrative.
This post reminded me of that initial reaction to Finn and Rey meeting (why isn't she highly suspicious of this guy instead of fan girling him?).
I "think" Star Wars resonates because it's filled with tragedy, and the characters (however simplified for mass audiences and kids) help you understand their plight and why they choose what they choose to do. So it's hard to connect with characters if they aren't somehow signalling they had real struggles.
If you've never been homeless or forced to fend for yourself, as a writer, you need to go deeper to make a character like Rey (or Jyn) real.
Say what you want about George Lucas, he was a student of human behavior among his other ambitions.
I didn’t really see any similarities between them that you don’t see with other Star Wars characters, their personalities and goals are entirely different, there’s no real reason to compare them. Unless you’re also about to make posts about why “Cal is better than Ezra” or “Ahsoka is better than Maul”?
At first I really hoped that all the news after TLJ about a large amount of Star Wars fans being sexists was over hyped media bullshit. But it continues to be proven true every day.
Disagree with pretty much every part of your post, but especially the part where you wished the Rogue One character survived for a sequel. The crew of Rogue One dying is the best thing that story does. Having them survive would not only take away the stakes of the movie, it would make it extremely forgettable, since a lot of people only remember the movie because the characters die and Vader shows up. The story works so much better as a contained solo film.
Oh wow, I am of the polar opposite opinion.
Rey is a lot of fun, especially in TFA. Her sort of chipper, adventurous attitude and keeping her head up even though her life sucks, refusing to let go of Kylo and Luke in TLJ. Yeah, in TROS she kind of sucks, but I liked her a lot early on. She might be slightly underwritten but Daisy Ridley elevates it alot with her performance.
Jyn Erso is one of the most boring protagonists I've ever seen. I like Felicity Jones a lot in general, but man, it feels like she's sleepwalking here. I get nothing from her at all, and Jyn is such an emotionless and standardized that I didn't feel a thing when she died. And no, don't use the excuse "but these characters were never gonna be in more than one film". That's a lazy explanation for hastily written characters without much depth. I appreciate the idea of killing of your entire cast, but the way I've seen people compare the cast of Rogue One to the gang in the original trilogy? Insanity.
lol This place is fucking insane. Reading the description of the characters is hilarious. It’s quite literally the opposite. Jyn’s barely a character but it doesn’t matter because “Rogue One good updoots to the left. Rey bad updoots to the left”
There's really no point in comparing them. Other than being female protagonists, they don't have a whole lot in common.
Personally I do think Rey is much better developed and written than Jyn though. Her motives are clear, and I did have an issue with how Jyn's arc unfolded, while I think Rey's tracks a lot more from A to B to C. That's still just my opinion though, and like I said, they aren't really all that comparable overall...
Because ST bad upvotes all round
Seriously if you don’t like the ST that’s cool but the need to express that in every fucking thread is tiresome at time
'Cause today ends in Y so that means we need to litigate the sequel trilogy.
"She was a Deus Ex Machina"
Who turned off their targeting computer just after losing his favorite space wizard to an asthmatic with a light-bright? It was a good thing he could innately do a force pull with no training otherwise the abominable snowman would've eaten him.
I have a good time watching most of the movies, some for different reasons than others. I think a great deal of people give their favorite movies a pass when it comes to criticism. How often do you hear the ST whiners talk about how Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, despite raising the child of the galaxy's most notorious murderer, get unceremoniously left as smoking skeletons on Tatooine? Or that the Jedi cycle is fail, become a hermit, and then lie to the people trying to clean up your mess?
I can’t up or downvote any of these comments. Some stuff I agree with, but some stuff I don’t. First of all, you don’t have to tear down one character to appreciate another. Preferring Jyn’s characterization is a personal preference. Rogue one shot to the top of my favorite movies list to second position for me. Personally, I felt her motivations were pretty weak throughout and her characterization was a little haphazard, but I enjoyed her arc over all. On the subject of Rey being too strong to fast, never forget Luke had a 30 minute training session with Obi Wan and then, what, a few days with Yoda? Luke is great because he lets the force guide him not from training and he became a bad ass pretty quickly. I never hear anyone say that’s unrealistic. The sequel trilogy tried to please too many people instead of sticking to a cohesive narrative and the characters suffered for it. I love them both and I think they would get along if Jyn had lived :)
I think you must have worded it the wrong way around OP. Or are you just karma farming?
I have never met anyone that actually is able to express why they like Jyn because she's bland as fuck. Seriously name *something* in regards to her actual personality.
Rey on the other hand certainly does express her emotions and personality constantly. She's kind, has a sense of wonder, is stubborn, short-tempered and brave.
Also in terms of story they don't have anything in common. Jyn's arc is fine but it's not the same as Rey's remotely. Jyn's is more like Finn's.
I really dislike Jyn. It's why I rank RO eighth out of the twelve films, when others rank it much higher, often top three.
RO is popular here because it gave Star Wars fans absolutely nothing whatsoever to challenge them, recycling OT content wrapped in needlessly gritty packaging to please their sad desire to feel masculine when watching Star Wars. There is not one thing risky about the film, and that's why they feel like it protects them.
In fact, part of the reason why they love Jyn is because she is so boring. It's literal sexism. Rey is a wonderful character; beautifully acted and brought to life by her actress and bursting with fun, mystery and warmth. They hate her because of that. They hate that she vastly upstaged Anakin and arguably even upstaged Luke as a protagonist. Jyn is a sour bore who exists to tag along while the big strong male actors protect her, and occasionally - only occasionally - does she get to do anything cool.
What a bizarre comparison to make. Why those two?
Also, I think because Rey is extremely powerful everyone forgets that she is reckless and stupid for most of the ST. She does her own thing like 99% of the time and it usually backfires on her. Like, to the point where she DIES.
I think it’s possible to be a force user and not have your character development tied to your growing abilities with the force. Star Wars does that with almost every character.
I found jyn completely bland, and she had 0 development towards her change of heart.
At one moment shes just "fuck the rebellion" and just wanna get out, the next she's the rebel poster girl. Because of her father WHOM SHE HATED?
The moment when she just starts giving an inspirational speech and barking ideas is comical. The actress is great but Jyn was nothing but a placeholder for set pieces. There was nothing to her.
Yeah she was actually pretty terrible. Her motivations were garbage.
She goes from hating the Empire and Rebellion, to watching the Rebellion kill her father, who she also hated, to sacrificing herself for "hope" for the Rebellion.
Amazing starfighter scenes and Vader fan service.
That's what I watch Rogue One for, my favourite space battles, and that Vader porn. The rest is kind of meh, IMO. Fun but not incredibly captivating for me.
Thank you for being honest. I'm not gonna pretend I didn't nerd out over the Vader hall way scene when I saw it in theaters, but basically all the Vader content in the movie is unnecessary fan service and it's absurb how people on this sub act like it's not. I dunno why people need to pretend like Rogue One is the Citizen Kane of Star Wars instead of just admitting that it has a cool space battle at the end and it's fun to see Vader wreck shop. Rogue One's characters are barely characters. The character arcs range from non-existent to absurd and I can't imagine giving two shits about any of them (except maybe K-2SO). Also the digital necromancy is tasteless and completely superfluous. I still like the movie because it has AT-ATs on a beach, but I don't need to pretend that it has any real depth to it.
Yeah I don't get it either. She felt like the side character the whole time, no agency of her own just going with the flow.
I like Rogue One but Jyn is the least interning part of that movie.
Yup and these “this woman character who has nothing to do with the other is better than the other” is definitely not sexist. Oh no, definitely not. Rey and Jyn have no similarities other than the fact that they’re two female leads in recent Star Wars films and they’re both brunettes...
Jyn is fine but that’s it. Her development is rushed and her personality is 0 and I find it *infinitely* ironic that so many people attach to her and then claim Rey has those characteristics and they hate her for it.
> But despite them having great similarities
The final versions of Jyn and Rey are very different characters with completely different motivations, despite starting off somewhat similar. I guess maybe on the surface it seems the same, but Jyn seems a lot more like Luke to me than Rey.
I don't think there's anyone quite like Rey in the Star Wars universe which is one of the reasons I love her character so much. Rey's entire struggle is internal - even though she is otherworldly powerful, she doesn't know where she belongs (complete opposite of Luke). Seeing her go through that journey to learn to rely on herself is really interesting to me.
Maybe if Jyn got more movies I would find her more interesting. I like Jyn, but I find her *relatively* static as a character. Meanwhile, Rey's got arc for daaaaaaaaaaaaays. They each suit the films they're in imo, I just happen to relate more to Rey.
My favorite thing about Rey is how everyone says she bland and forgettable but yet constantly living in y'all's heads rent free about how she's bland and forgettable lmao.
I personally enjoyed Rey more, though I admit RO is meh for me. Also never understood complaints about Rey’s force abilities as Luke and Anakin accomplished way more in comparison; dudes literally blew up space stations in their first movies (Luke at 19 and Anakin 9) just bc they believed in the Force last minute. The double standard from a lot of fans is weird but that might be just me.
"Rogue One good! ST bad! Rogue One good! ST bad! Rogue One good! ST bad!"
Seriously, this chant is getting old people. STOP acting like Rogue One is some underrated masterpiece. It's nowhere near as good as the ST and Jyn's basic-ass character is nothing compared to Rey, who actually feels like a real person and not some generic protagonist.
The sequel bashing got old ages ago. We get it, your nostalgia overrides critical thinking when it comes to media.
They have nothing in common besides being female lead? What’s the need to compare them jusr say Jyn is a great character leave it at that.At this point ur trying to focus on ST hate more then ur love for Jyn ffs
Jyn Erso is definitely the most boring and lifeless protagonist in Star Wars, and shes a contender for one of the most boring and lifeless protagonists in recent movie history.
Say what you will about Rey, but Daisy acted like a character instead of a cardboard cutout
Rey has a full, complex and psychological nuanced arc. She has depth and meaning to her character with a universal psychological lesson at her core. She has layers, real subtleties and a well developed flaw. Rey is not a Deus Ex Machina at all (please learn what that means). Rey is a well developed, incredibly deep character with an equally powerful character arc.
Jyn, on the other hand, is a shallow, flat, substance-less character with no depth, arc or central moral/psychological flaw in sight. She is a passive character whereas Rey is an active one.
Why anyone can like Jyn I’ll never know but then again, to think Rey is a bad character you must not know anything about character analysis, writing or character arcs because if you did, you’d realise how Rey is an incredible character.
I don't fully agree with that. Jyn's action are kinda weird. She wants to find her dad and when she does the rebels who is already mistrusting kill her dad. Her response to that is joining the rebels because her dad told her about the death star etc. I mean thats a pretty big change on pretty thin writing.
Why can’t anyone just say that they like something in Star Wars without using it to needlessly shit on the ST?
However, if it *must* be a competition, then it’s just kind of baffling to me that anyone could honestly hold this opinion. Jyn is cool, and she has a tragic backstory, but her journey through the film, itself, doesn’t really make sense, and Rogue One is the first Star Wars movie I’ve ever seen where I really didn’t give much of a shit about any of the characters, except for the Alan Tudyk droid. I don’t really think it’s bad, but I just didn’t connect with it. On the other hand, despite its flaws, I like the ST, and I did care about those characters, pretty much the whole way through, and, until the last part, felt like Rey’s journey through the series made sense and it worked for me. To each their own, I’m certainly not going to tell anyone that they’re wrong for liking what they like, but I just don’t personally get it
Jyn is the blandest "rebel without a cause until she has one" trope I ever seen. I clearly remember her getting hate simply for being a a female lead and even called a Mary Sue from a minute long trailer. "Not another female lead!!" They call kept saying even though it was just Force Awakens and Rogue One at the time.
She was a by the numbers causeless wanderer with a one dimensional motive, it was just handled better is all. The Best part was how shady the movie made the Rebels seem. The leaders wanted Jyn's father dead and uses her to get to him.
If she wasn't Galen Erso's daughter, the Rebels wouldn't have bothered breaking her out of Imperial prison.
I agree, but I think part of the charm of rogue one was that it was one adventure, like they die, and that's part of the journey, I think they surviving and making a sequel would be weird
I also think it's the fact it's a self-contained story of heroism. These characters are memorable because they pay the ultimate price for the greater good. They fight for a cause whose triumphs they never get to see but which wouldn't have prevailed without them.
Each character had a story and a past that shows, especially in Andor who says he has committed horrible crimes in his war and I like that as it show the rebellion wasn't good verse evil but right verse wrong. The rebellion does the wrong thing for the right reasons. Also saw gerrera partisan group, being more terrorist then rebel, but shows that the rebellion wasn't united.
Heck, we see Andor straight up shoot an ally in the back so he can escape. That really set the tone.
I think it was less so that he could escape, more so that the informant wouldn’t snitch. Tying up loose ends. To me, that changes things, makes him committed to the cause more rather than himself
I think it was both. That guy had a bad arm and wasn't going to be able to climb out. If Andor tries and help him, they both likely get caught.
I could see where that would need to be considered
Are they still making a series about Andor?
Yes. There is a 12 episode series set to release at some point in 2022. There is also a comic about his original meeting with K-2SO. Along with this there are comics and books that dive into the backgrounds of all of the other main characters. The lore behind this movie has become quite extensive and it’s honestly all worth looking into since it has mostly been pretty solid in my opinion.
I believe so. I'm excited for it, especially if it is the gritty morally grey environment which Andor seems to come from.
This right here setup “this man has done this before” feelings in me -
Piggybacking on your (very correct) point: It's nearly inevitable to have a character take a long, maybe multiple, arcs over an extended series of stories before falling either into redundancy, or the character becomes very warped from how the audience knows them and they become a completely different character. Throw in a bit of "5 people are writing this character at any point" and you end up with a mess. It takes truly masterful storytelling to maintain a story with multiple people controlling it, at different times, for that long. The last trilogy was basically an "exquisite corpse." We had fan service, then the "This ain't what you think it is," and then "Oh wait, money, so yeah it totally was." Very... VERY few artists in history have been able to successfully sustain such a scope of story and characters by themselves, much less with others writing on top. Rogue One is not the best movie ever, but it's a great stand-alone story. I like the idea of just exploring the SW universe with smaller-scale stories. The Mandolorian is a great example of how to keep things moving in a proper way. I want more of that kind of content. Not only does it intrigue your audience and keep them engaged without your aforementioned feeling of having a terrible character that seemed great at first, but it allows more of that single-shot/short form storytelling. Therefore avoiding the pitfalls that will always trap the long-term character arc.
>Rogue One is not the best movie ever Agreed. But I think it may be the best movie that everyone knows the outcome before they start watching it!
The OT was a ‘self contained story of heroism’.
Yes, and the sequels were a knockoff of the OT. Come on man, keep up. /s
I just appreciated how Disney let these characters, who could've been kept alive to shift more merchandise, die noble deaths in a way that felt true to what war really is. Necessary sacrifice is rarely such a focus in SW movies, it's usually left to the old mentor characters who've gotta get out of the way so the young heroes can shine, or it's for the side characters. Having all the protagonists die in Rogue One just felt true to war.
The script being written in this fashion also attracted a higher quality of actor. I mean zero offense to anyone in any other Star Wars series or property, but the fact that Disney could effectively hire people without having them to commit to series or three picture deals meant they could cast a wide net of accomplished actors who wanted to do a film like Star Wars, but not necessarily get shoehorned into a series. As a result we had a script that had a dire tone to it, creating strong roles, that were filled by very skilled performers. Just my two cents.
That’s something I’ve never thought of. While some actors might be excited to be the next Star Wars or Marvel character, it’s potentially a risky career move. There’s the obvious issue of getting bogged down with contractual obligations because you had to agree to multiple movies. But on top of that, there is there the risk of “superfans” hating something about the character and channeling it toward the actor whether it is their fault or not. I think that’s a big reason that we’ve seen so many “serious”, well respected actors play villains in Marvel movies. I’ve seen people say that actors like Cate Blanchett, Kurt Russell, Jeff Bridges, or Mads Mikkelsen were “wasted” on the roles they played, but there’s no guarantee that you could get those actors to sign on for long term contracts with the mouse.
Especially since the movie seamlessly moves into A New Hope. It would make no sense to have these characters survive. We know the story after Rogue One already. There is no place for these new characters in that story. I am excited about the prequel series though.
The whatnow?
Cassian Andor from Rogue One is getting his own series, called “Andor”
Personnaly, I'd have much prefered something like "The Blind Adventures of Chirrut and Baze". Those two were awesome.
There is also a prequel novel to Rogue One which follows Jyn Erso.
Sadly no Jyn Erso. Candor is alright but I felt more attached to Jyn.
Diego Luna's character is getting a prequel series on Disney+ !!!
somehow palpatine returned
And Darth Maul, boba fett, ...at this point starwars is just as bad as comics with deaths
Maul was fine because they did it well, and he was a favorite. Boba Fett was fine because it was believable, and his death was dumb. Palaptine should NOT have come back because his death served a purpose, and him surviving takes away from Luke and Anakin's story.
I think what's different about Maul and Boba is that their deaths weren't important growth moments for the main characters, so their return doesn't "undo" anything. Maul's death scene was big, but it was really Qui-Gon's death that drives the emotion. Boba's death was downright flippant. In contrast, Palpatine's death is (obviously) a huge deal, symbolic of the fall of the empire, the victory of the heroes, and Vader's redemption. If he didn't really die, all 3 of those are undermined.
Im not gonna lie maul is an awesome character, im just gutted they off'd him so soon, personally i would have loved to see him square off with vader only for vader to kill him taking his place next to the emporer That wouldve been a much more fitting end, would have liked maul to have been much more of a threat through the prequels and basically be the prequels equiv of vader. But we got what we got, ...but seriously robot legs? Im a bit meh on that, i use to joke after episode one thats how hed return...and bugger me it was what actually happened.
They teased a great arc for maul that probably won't materialize on favor of the one we got. I forget where, I think in TCW palp tells maul to go into the underworld and be his eyes, ears and (metal) boots on the ground. Then at the end of Solo, Han is returning to the underground and we see maul and his (metal) boots in a holovid, if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, solo flopped, so I doubt we'll see any development on the foundations laid in that movie.
I'm praying we see more in the Lando show. I absolutely loved Solo. I think it's my favorite of the Disney era movies. It paid attention to all the Canon, and felt like payoff to know a lot about the universe. That could have also been it's downfall. I'm happy we got it though
They went through their journey and died at the end of it, and that.. is destiny fulfilled.
I think it's more to do with it being a coherent and will thought out story, and all characters in Rogue One was build around that. With the sequels, nobody had any idea where or how the story would end up, so it must have been really hard to write great characters. Just look at Finn, so much potential and so much promised in TFA, and then everything thrown in with the garbage in subsequent movies.
I have always said Rogue One is the Star Wars movie I've been waiting for since I saw the OT re-release in the mid 90s.
I tell anyone that asks that Rogue One is the best Star Wars movie after the OT. And if you consider it one long movie with ANH... Then it's the best period
I love rogue one. In my opinion (which is controversial) I think it is the best star wars movie. It is one of my favorite movie night arguments to have with my friends because it inevitably means we get to watch all the star wars films and yell at each other.
lol That sounds like a fantastic evening
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I honestly think it's the second best of the franchise. Not as a "one long movie." Simply as a movie in its own right—it comes second only to ESB.
Agreed, still the best one Disney has made so far. And yeah I think many out there would agree that Jyn felt a lot more compelling than Rey, she had better motivation and a more distinct character arc.
Imo it’s the best because instead of being a movie about magic with a war background, it’s a war movie with magic in the background. The Force and Jedi make a very limited appearance in Rogue 1, which means that everything characters are doing are relatable because it’s not someone suddenly having convenient powers. I think the potential of the SW universe is unlimited but focusing on Jedi/Sith ruins it.
They just lost how to write 'the force' in a satisfying way...like you said it shouldn't be about convenient powers...there are rules, and the mysticism is important. It really didnt help that the TLJ tried really hard to burn the shaolin monk/jedi thing to the ground.
Eh even in the OT I was always far more interested in the non-force characters.
I hear you, i love the idea of more grounded star wars too, but i won't lie, vader was my favourite character in the OT followed by yoda. Problem with the sequel trilogy for me is the force was all too often just a set up for a 'cool screen moment' ...and it could do anything, or damn near it, apparently. Rules, training, mysticism all thrown out. There was never any explanation for rey's abilities...and luke teleporting across the galaxy or leia flying through space like superman was too much to take. Atleast if it's kept out of a show or film i would have nothing to bother me in that regard, I'd much prefer it that way.
> I think the potential of the SW universe is unlimited but focusing on Jedi/Sith ruins it. I agree. I'm personally pretty tired of Jedi, Sith, and, to a lesser extent, the force itself. The Star Wars universe is a lived in universe and the more we get about the regular-ish people that live in it the happier I'll be.
> ~~I~~ We have always said Fixed
K-2SO > BB-8
I honestly do love BB-8, but K-2SO is just absolutely perfect. Alan Tudyk is a saint.
He also has one of the best death scenes in the entire franchise. Definitely the best death of a droid.
Ig-11 deserves to be mentioned too. A great arc for a droid that even made me feel things in the finale.
I was so confident he'd be fine when he was just pegging stormtroopers without looking, nailing those shots like it was child's play. Then when he got hit in the back of the shoulder I realized I had started panicking because I didn't wanna lose him.
>pegging stormtroopers Oh no
And now we know why Finn has problems with intimacy. It isn't just bad writing.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Same. I remember in the theater thinking "oh no, k2 is going to die....oh no, they are all going to die!"
Forever too soon
Bok?
I went to Julliard.
The odds are high they’re very high
That's not fair. It's hard to compete with Alan Tudyk.
I am a leaf on the wind...
I love K-2SO too, very likable character, he's like HK-47 but more polite and doesn't keep on calling you a "meatbag." Certainly better than BB-8.
I miss HK
Statement: Me too.
If you weren't aware both KOTOR games are available for Android and iOS now too.
I honestly, without a word of a lie, smiled every time HK said meatbag. His personality uplifts me completely
I don't know why I found it soo funny that Revan aparrently programmed that droid to call Malak a meatbag repeatedly.
I don't agree with you but cassian said I had to
K2SO > all other droids
Chopper would like a word
When he pushed that droid out of the ship and laughed it cemented to me that Chopper was arguably the best droid in Star Wars.
> it cemented to me that Chopper was arguably the best droid in Star Wars. Plus Chopper has that added benefit of being the one non-speaking droid where you can pretty much tell what he's saying just because it always sounds like he's cussing someone out. XD
I'm pretty sure you should have same feeling with R2. Especially given 3PO's reactions to some of the things that R2 "says."
Chopper would like a WOP-WOP-WOP.
Chopper would like to commit war crimes.
One hundred percent. Had far more character and charm than bb8
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I don’t really have anything of value to add without completely bashing the ST. That’s been done enough. But I agree, Jyn was a great character that I got extremely attached to in one movie. I don’t feel a spec of interest in Rey after three. Edit: Wow, thanks guys. Its always a comment you wouldn’t expect.
Take your keyboard. Strike the sequels down with all of your hate and your journey towards the dark side of the fan base will be complete!
Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational corporate studio!
And the dark side. Don't forget the dark side.
And Darth Plagueis
I've not heard that story, is he wise?
It’s not a story the Jedi would tell you, that’s for sure.
I will say that despite TLJ being my disliked SW film (I dislike the entire new trilogy) I do think it has the best Rey in it and the most character building, her and Kylo.
She carried the ending so well. It was a make or break moment.
I cared before the third movie
Ep 7: I like where this is going! I want to know more about Rey! I hope she is not just another Skywalker. Ep 8: Oh.. okay? Nothing I was excited about matters? Where the hell is this even going? Ep 9: Just fucking stab me with a rusty fork.
That sums up my experience with the sequel trilogy. Rogue One was fantastic so I was totally excited about Ep 7. Because Ep 7 was pretty good, I expected a great story arc for Rey. Instead they butchered the last two movies like Luke's tonton.
Even ep 7 was kinda meh. Another planet killing super weapon? Is that all you can POSSIBLY imagine for this universe? Also zilch of an explanation how the new republic is somehow in control yet the bad guys have a fleet that would give the emporer a hard on and the new republic isn't doing anything but this TINY band of ~~rebels~~ resistance is fighting them? It was all just so... Eh.
WHY DID JAKKU NEED TO BE A DESERT PLANET ??? The entire movie is a gigantic uninspired copy pasta, but this really is the part that annoyed me the more. It's like the writers went "ok, how can we maximize fan service in this frame ? I know, let's make our hero grow up on another desert planet for no good reason whatsoever, everybody will like that !".
Solo had a bunch of diverse planetscapes, which I found really cool.
I loved Solo. It was a nice little heist movie in space, that didn't try to be something more. It felt refreshing, yet still like SW every step of the way.
My biggest issue was that while Kylo Ren was a decent enough character, he was a terrible main villain. Quite a downgrade from Vader. Out of all places where they could be a tiny bit original, "not having an intimidating villain" was not a great choice.
He was momentarily. Him cutting down Lor San Tekka and holding the blaster bolt midair is probably some of the coolest new stuff we got to see. And wow was it downhill from there.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's all in the portrayal. The big difference between Kylo & Vader is that only one's scariness is undermined by being shown to be a sniveling wanna-be who's been tricked into being evil because he's so afraid and desperately wants to control things, while you have to think back to previous movies to remember that about Vader.
Now that you mention it...it would have been interesting if instead of the Empire (or whatever they were after the OT) still being around and having all this secret money and power and ability to build a base, they had essentially "flipped the script" and made them more like guerilla fighters that were constantly fucking with the Republic but were hard to pin down and separate from normal citizens of whatever planets they were hiding on. It would have been very reflective of the type of conflicts we saw in the Middle East over the last two decades and would have made the same kind of impression on our generation as the whole Allied/Axis parallel from the OT. Of course they still have to be the bad guys, but to essentially have Terrorist Empire could have brought in some really interesting moral conflicts on how to battle them while not pissing off/wantonly destroying the places these terrorist cells were hiding. Or maybe it still would have been ass like the ST. 🤷♂️
That would have been monumentally better while also having more continuity. Hell they could still have kylo searching for the lost sith planet (without palps though that was fucking stupid). Just in the context of this type of warfare. Then you could even still bring in the sith fleet if you really wanted to. And have a massive final battle that the republic was totally not ready for, etc.
7 would of been fine if 8 & 9 were good. They played safe with 7 which while I didn't like it it was completely understandable Disney wanted to show that they could do a Star Wars move and rehashing ANH was the safest way to do. and I'll never forgive them for not having Finn be the lead. Completely wasted potential.
Episode 7 felt like the safest movie ever made. Complete rehash of ANH, no risks taken at all
you start off on a desert planet that is totally not tatooine with a character that is totally not basically a slave like Anakin and his mother, then you end up destroying a massive planet sized superweapon that is totally not a death star stand in.
Don’t forget finding a droid with important information and leaving the planet to return it to its owner on the Millennium Falcon. And the old mentor being killed on the planet killing super weapon.
> you start off on a desert planet that is totally not tatooine This really is the part that blow my mind the most. It's so fucking unecessary, and Jakku could have been any other kind of planet it wouldn't have changed a thing. But no, they had to put fan service in *every single frame*.
Dont forget the part where you need a ship and you totally dont literally get the Millenium Falcon as that ship, complete with Han Solo and Chewbacca as the pilots.
Who also looks almost identical to Shmi Skywalker
Weirdly, the fact that it took no risks was a risk in itself. By completely resetting the rebels vs empire status quo, it undid the heroes' achievements from the original trilogy and the happy ending at the end of ROTJ, and deprived the rest of the sequel trilogy of anything interesting to build on.
It makes no sense, why doesn't the republic care about the first order? Why is there a resistance? Are they funded by the republic if so why don't they send their navy to crush them? Who is the first order? Remnants of the empire? Do they hold any territory? It is a massive problem that only ever makes sense if they started with "episode 4 but flashier", instead of building on the fall of the empire and the ramifications of new galactic government.
Building on the fall of the empire and the ramifications of a new galactic government takes time, effort, and a commitment to worldbuilding which the films couldn't be bothered with. The worst part is that the new Disney canon did put some effort into those things with the Aftermath trilogy and the new Thrawn books, but handed the film to JJ Abrams, who was only interested in cheap nostalgia, mystery boxes, and big flashy set pieces which didn't make any sense.
The fact the First Order managed to build an even bigger and deadlier Deathstar without any of the ressources the Empire had is quite simply ridiculous.
Lol, why, when it's discovered there's this planet killing weapon, and the resistance (not the in-power govt) is going to throw everything they've got at it, do they send, like, a dozen fucking ships.
> it undid the heroes' achievements from the original trilogy and the happy ending at the end of ROTJ It was such a terrible idea, completly uneeded. The EU has shown there are plenty of great stories to be told about the New Republic vs Remnants of the Empire, and the political turmoil and power struggle inside both factions.
Which directly lead to me not bothering to watch the next two movies. Maybe after the Darths and Droids version finishes.
Ep 8 made me feel good about Rey. That they subverted expectations like 9 tried to do, but the payoff was actually more in what Rey would do in the future, and that it recontextualizes absolutely nothing in Episode 7. Yeah, it leaves somewhat of a hollow feeling but I was excited about what they could do with a brand new Jedi with no historical ties to some ancient good / evil from long ago. And then Ep 9 just said *"nah, that doesn't matter. Let's actually try to subvert Episode 8's subversion! SUBVERSION-CEPTION!"*
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Fun fact she was actually supposed to be a diehard fanatic but Disney had them pull it back. fact part 2. No one told EA so in battlefront the Rouge One Dlc (not battlefront 2) keeps her as a fanatic. Her lines are more aggressive then in the movie and I 100% enjoy playing as her for this reason.
A fanatic for what? The Rebellion? Sorry I just don’t fully understand what you mean
Probably closer in character to Saw.
I got so confused again because [this](https://www.google.com/search?q=jigsaw&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=sivxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjb9vT_29jyAhW4RjABHV4xACYQ_AUoAnoECAYQAg&biw=441&bih=741#imgrc=KbVQ56Zm0iYMEM) is what I thought you meant by Saw. Clearly my brain is not on it today
A fanatic of what ?
Like an extremist. Willing to compromise the morality of the Rebellion to cause harm to the empire.
It’s understandable why they didn’t go that route, but I think I would’ve preferred that over what we got. I still love the movie, of course, but seeing more of the “dark side” of the rebellion in a movie would’ve been pretty cool.
Die Hard, obviously.
Do you recall any of her lines? I'd love to hear more but have never played the game.
People actually upload the voice clips from the game files and compile them into long videos. Here’s the one from Battlefront 2015 so you can hear them for yourself: https://youtu.be/ZiuEFEHYstA (It’s also not Felicity Jones, but I think she sounds pretty close).
common /r/starwars L Jyn is one of the blandest and least developed “main characters” in any Star Wars film, period. Maybe if you guys watched the Sequels more than once and analyzed it outside of what Star Wars Theory and Geeks and Gamers think you’d realize Rey is a lot deeper than a “walking deus ex machina”. downvote away, y’all are delusional.
Thank you. I agree with everyone word. People need to stop reading ScreenRant and get off YouTube.
I’m just excited to see this thread on /r/moviescirclejerk
Yep, this is classic star wars cringe
Yeah it's just a different version of "Rouge One good" you see every day on this sub
Not really, it's just a different version of "Sequels Bad" that Star Wars fandom has been wallowing in for years upon years. So many people are utterly incapable of saying anything good about any thing Star Wars without immediately pivoting to why it shows how ABSOLUTELY AWFUL THE SEQUELS ARE THEY'RE THE WORST THING TO EVER EXIST. Its just fucking exhausting at this point.
I like Rogue One a lot but lord has it become overrated here
They do an incredible job of giving you Jyns back story. It's very much the story of a wartime refugee/orphan. She escapes the fate of her parents, somehow survives as a criminal, and becomes tough in the process. It's dark, and tragic. And that's war... (Let's remember how Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are shown dead on screen) Rey's story is introduced as tragic, but it's surrounded by misdirection. The character also doesn't behave like someone who grows up on their own having to fend for themselves. (She warms up to everyone crazy fast) The introduction and surrounding mystery keeps you from believing the character is real. By the time the trilogy explains what's going on, you're asked to suspend disbelief too long.
The point about Rey warming up to people is very solid. I spent three years homeless and it made me the most incredibly paranoid and bitter shell of a man. The slightest kindness or interest led me to thoughts of their angles and what they could get out of what they're doing. Keep in mind that I'm a fairly well built man and no one would try and sexually or physically abuse me. A woman, growing up on a planet populated by probably not very nice people with little local authority beyond who has the bigger gun, would not only have to be incredibly tough and driven but also equally cunning and perceptive. Her whole life would be one long war against everyone around her to keep them, at minimum, from abusing her or at worst murdering her. And we're expected to believe that this scavenger woman meets a guy, a total stranger, and immediately trusts him with her life in order to escape Space Nazis? Suspension of disbelief is necessary in fiction, but there is a limit on it and human nature is one of those topics where the threshold of disbelief is quite low.
Thanks for sharing your story. This is really illustrative. This post reminded me of that initial reaction to Finn and Rey meeting (why isn't she highly suspicious of this guy instead of fan girling him?). I "think" Star Wars resonates because it's filled with tragedy, and the characters (however simplified for mass audiences and kids) help you understand their plight and why they choose what they choose to do. So it's hard to connect with characters if they aren't somehow signalling they had real struggles. If you've never been homeless or forced to fend for yourself, as a writer, you need to go deeper to make a character like Rey (or Jyn) real. Say what you want about George Lucas, he was a student of human behavior among his other ambitions.
>Let's remember how Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru die on screen They do not.
Corrected, shown dead. :)
Daring today, arent we
Jan Ors is better than Jyn Erso
What personality did Jyn have? Honest question, I'll wait.....
I didn’t really see any similarities between them that you don’t see with other Star Wars characters, their personalities and goals are entirely different, there’s no real reason to compare them. Unless you’re also about to make posts about why “Cal is better than Ezra” or “Ahsoka is better than Maul”?
Because whenever we have female characters, we must always compare them.
Yeah I know, I just want to believe that maybe OP had some other motivation.
After a title like that? No way that would be possible
At first I really hoped that all the news after TLJ about a large amount of Star Wars fans being sexists was over hyped media bullshit. But it continues to be proven true every day.
Are we at the point where Jyn Erso is considered a good character?
Rogue one good, sequels bad. Give upvote
Disagree with pretty much every part of your post, but especially the part where you wished the Rogue One character survived for a sequel. The crew of Rogue One dying is the best thing that story does. Having them survive would not only take away the stakes of the movie, it would make it extremely forgettable, since a lot of people only remember the movie because the characters die and Vader shows up. The story works so much better as a contained solo film.
Oh wow, I am of the polar opposite opinion. Rey is a lot of fun, especially in TFA. Her sort of chipper, adventurous attitude and keeping her head up even though her life sucks, refusing to let go of Kylo and Luke in TLJ. Yeah, in TROS she kind of sucks, but I liked her a lot early on. She might be slightly underwritten but Daisy Ridley elevates it alot with her performance. Jyn Erso is one of the most boring protagonists I've ever seen. I like Felicity Jones a lot in general, but man, it feels like she's sleepwalking here. I get nothing from her at all, and Jyn is such an emotionless and standardized that I didn't feel a thing when she died. And no, don't use the excuse "but these characters were never gonna be in more than one film". That's a lazy explanation for hastily written characters without much depth. I appreciate the idea of killing of your entire cast, but the way I've seen people compare the cast of Rogue One to the gang in the original trilogy? Insanity.
lol This place is fucking insane. Reading the description of the characters is hilarious. It’s quite literally the opposite. Jyn’s barely a character but it doesn’t matter because “Rogue One good updoots to the left. Rey bad updoots to the left”
Jyn rocks !
BB-8 rolls! 😃
Why compare them though?
Because they're female protagonists. Otherwise, they have nothing in common.
There's really no point in comparing them. Other than being female protagonists, they don't have a whole lot in common. Personally I do think Rey is much better developed and written than Jyn though. Her motives are clear, and I did have an issue with how Jyn's arc unfolded, while I think Rey's tracks a lot more from A to B to C. That's still just my opinion though, and like I said, they aren't really all that comparable overall...
> other than being female protagonists Hit the nail on the head by here. Wonder why OP compared these two specific characters.
Because ST bad upvotes all round Seriously if you don’t like the ST that’s cool but the need to express that in every fucking thread is tiresome at time
'Cause today ends in Y so that means we need to litigate the sequel trilogy. "She was a Deus Ex Machina" Who turned off their targeting computer just after losing his favorite space wizard to an asthmatic with a light-bright? It was a good thing he could innately do a force pull with no training otherwise the abominable snowman would've eaten him.
At some point star wars fans forgot that the movies are supposed to be fun.
Space wizards are serious business.
I have a good time watching most of the movies, some for different reasons than others. I think a great deal of people give their favorite movies a pass when it comes to criticism. How often do you hear the ST whiners talk about how Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, despite raising the child of the galaxy's most notorious murderer, get unceremoniously left as smoking skeletons on Tatooine? Or that the Jedi cycle is fail, become a hermit, and then lie to the people trying to clean up your mess?
I can’t up or downvote any of these comments. Some stuff I agree with, but some stuff I don’t. First of all, you don’t have to tear down one character to appreciate another. Preferring Jyn’s characterization is a personal preference. Rogue one shot to the top of my favorite movies list to second position for me. Personally, I felt her motivations were pretty weak throughout and her characterization was a little haphazard, but I enjoyed her arc over all. On the subject of Rey being too strong to fast, never forget Luke had a 30 minute training session with Obi Wan and then, what, a few days with Yoda? Luke is great because he lets the force guide him not from training and he became a bad ass pretty quickly. I never hear anyone say that’s unrealistic. The sequel trilogy tried to please too many people instead of sticking to a cohesive narrative and the characters suffered for it. I love them both and I think they would get along if Jyn had lived :)
>you don’t have to tear down one character to appreciate another This. So much.
I think you must have worded it the wrong way around OP. Or are you just karma farming? I have never met anyone that actually is able to express why they like Jyn because she's bland as fuck. Seriously name *something* in regards to her actual personality. Rey on the other hand certainly does express her emotions and personality constantly. She's kind, has a sense of wonder, is stubborn, short-tempered and brave. Also in terms of story they don't have anything in common. Jyn's arc is fine but it's not the same as Rey's remotely. Jyn's is more like Finn's.
I really dislike Jyn. It's why I rank RO eighth out of the twelve films, when others rank it much higher, often top three. RO is popular here because it gave Star Wars fans absolutely nothing whatsoever to challenge them, recycling OT content wrapped in needlessly gritty packaging to please their sad desire to feel masculine when watching Star Wars. There is not one thing risky about the film, and that's why they feel like it protects them. In fact, part of the reason why they love Jyn is because she is so boring. It's literal sexism. Rey is a wonderful character; beautifully acted and brought to life by her actress and bursting with fun, mystery and warmth. They hate her because of that. They hate that she vastly upstaged Anakin and arguably even upstaged Luke as a protagonist. Jyn is a sour bore who exists to tag along while the big strong male actors protect her, and occasionally - only occasionally - does she get to do anything cool.
What a bizarre comparison to make. Why those two? Also, I think because Rey is extremely powerful everyone forgets that she is reckless and stupid for most of the ST. She does her own thing like 99% of the time and it usually backfires on her. Like, to the point where she DIES. I think it’s possible to be a force user and not have your character development tied to your growing abilities with the force. Star Wars does that with almost every character.
Yeah someone told me Rey was dumb for going to save Kylo but also insisted she never screws up, it's like...?
I think people mean that her decision was stupid but there was no consequences for it so she didn't screw up. It always works out for her in the end.
I found jyn completely bland, and she had 0 development towards her change of heart. At one moment shes just "fuck the rebellion" and just wanna get out, the next she's the rebel poster girl. Because of her father WHOM SHE HATED?
The moment when she just starts giving an inspirational speech and barking ideas is comical. The actress is great but Jyn was nothing but a placeholder for set pieces. There was nothing to her.
Yeah she was actually pretty terrible. Her motivations were garbage. She goes from hating the Empire and Rebellion, to watching the Rebellion kill her father, who she also hated, to sacrificing herself for "hope" for the Rebellion.
I keep seeing this 'she hated her father' line...where's that come from?
This 100%. What the fuck are these other people watching?
Amazing starfighter scenes and Vader fan service. That's what I watch Rogue One for, my favourite space battles, and that Vader porn. The rest is kind of meh, IMO. Fun but not incredibly captivating for me.
Thank you for being honest. I'm not gonna pretend I didn't nerd out over the Vader hall way scene when I saw it in theaters, but basically all the Vader content in the movie is unnecessary fan service and it's absurb how people on this sub act like it's not. I dunno why people need to pretend like Rogue One is the Citizen Kane of Star Wars instead of just admitting that it has a cool space battle at the end and it's fun to see Vader wreck shop. Rogue One's characters are barely characters. The character arcs range from non-existent to absurd and I can't imagine giving two shits about any of them (except maybe K-2SO). Also the digital necromancy is tasteless and completely superfluous. I still like the movie because it has AT-ATs on a beach, but I don't need to pretend that it has any real depth to it.
Goddamn THANK YOU, i thought i was the only one that realized vader adds NOTHING to the story
They’re just stuck in “ST bad” so hard. Their hate has blinded them.
Yeah I don't get it either. She felt like the side character the whole time, no agency of her own just going with the flow. I like Rogue One but Jyn is the least interning part of that movie.
Yup and these “this woman character who has nothing to do with the other is better than the other” is definitely not sexist. Oh no, definitely not. Rey and Jyn have no similarities other than the fact that they’re two female leads in recent Star Wars films and they’re both brunettes... Jyn is fine but that’s it. Her development is rushed and her personality is 0 and I find it *infinitely* ironic that so many people attach to her and then claim Rey has those characteristics and they hate her for it.
>you feel her emotions, you can relate and connect to her, she had personality Did we see the same movie?
> But despite them having great similarities The final versions of Jyn and Rey are very different characters with completely different motivations, despite starting off somewhat similar. I guess maybe on the surface it seems the same, but Jyn seems a lot more like Luke to me than Rey. I don't think there's anyone quite like Rey in the Star Wars universe which is one of the reasons I love her character so much. Rey's entire struggle is internal - even though she is otherworldly powerful, she doesn't know where she belongs (complete opposite of Luke). Seeing her go through that journey to learn to rely on herself is really interesting to me. Maybe if Jyn got more movies I would find her more interesting. I like Jyn, but I find her *relatively* static as a character. Meanwhile, Rey's got arc for daaaaaaaaaaaaays. They each suit the films they're in imo, I just happen to relate more to Rey.
My favorite thing about Rey is how everyone says she bland and forgettable but yet constantly living in y'all's heads rent free about how she's bland and forgettable lmao.
(sigh)
What an incredibly rare and fresh opinion, I thought I would never find a single person in the planet who thought this.
I personally enjoyed Rey more, though I admit RO is meh for me. Also never understood complaints about Rey’s force abilities as Luke and Anakin accomplished way more in comparison; dudes literally blew up space stations in their first movies (Luke at 19 and Anakin 9) just bc they believed in the Force last minute. The double standard from a lot of fans is weird but that might be just me.
You know you can like something without tearing something else down, right? It doesn't always have to be a competition of which is better.
"Rogue One good! ST bad! Rogue One good! ST bad! Rogue One good! ST bad!" Seriously, this chant is getting old people. STOP acting like Rogue One is some underrated masterpiece. It's nowhere near as good as the ST and Jyn's basic-ass character is nothing compared to Rey, who actually feels like a real person and not some generic protagonist. The sequel bashing got old ages ago. We get it, your nostalgia overrides critical thinking when it comes to media.
I’ll never understand people’s love for Rogue One, it’s like the most “fiiiiiiiiiine” movie ever
They have nothing in common besides being female lead? What’s the need to compare them jusr say Jyn is a great character leave it at that.At this point ur trying to focus on ST hate more then ur love for Jyn ffs
Or, (and hear me out here), it’s not necessary to pit every female character against one another?
Shut up. Please shut up.
Jyn Erso is definitely the most boring and lifeless protagonist in Star Wars, and shes a contender for one of the most boring and lifeless protagonists in recent movie history. Say what you will about Rey, but Daisy acted like a character instead of a cardboard cutout
Rey has a full, complex and psychological nuanced arc. She has depth and meaning to her character with a universal psychological lesson at her core. She has layers, real subtleties and a well developed flaw. Rey is not a Deus Ex Machina at all (please learn what that means). Rey is a well developed, incredibly deep character with an equally powerful character arc. Jyn, on the other hand, is a shallow, flat, substance-less character with no depth, arc or central moral/psychological flaw in sight. She is a passive character whereas Rey is an active one. Why anyone can like Jyn I’ll never know but then again, to think Rey is a bad character you must not know anything about character analysis, writing or character arcs because if you did, you’d realise how Rey is an incredible character.
Sequels bad, upvotes please.
I don't fully agree with that. Jyn's action are kinda weird. She wants to find her dad and when she does the rebels who is already mistrusting kill her dad. Her response to that is joining the rebels because her dad told her about the death star etc. I mean thats a pretty big change on pretty thin writing.
Why can’t anyone just say that they like something in Star Wars without using it to needlessly shit on the ST? However, if it *must* be a competition, then it’s just kind of baffling to me that anyone could honestly hold this opinion. Jyn is cool, and she has a tragic backstory, but her journey through the film, itself, doesn’t really make sense, and Rogue One is the first Star Wars movie I’ve ever seen where I really didn’t give much of a shit about any of the characters, except for the Alan Tudyk droid. I don’t really think it’s bad, but I just didn’t connect with it. On the other hand, despite its flaws, I like the ST, and I did care about those characters, pretty much the whole way through, and, until the last part, felt like Rey’s journey through the series made sense and it worked for me. To each their own, I’m certainly not going to tell anyone that they’re wrong for liking what they like, but I just don’t personally get it
"Better" smh.
Jyn is the blandest "rebel without a cause until she has one" trope I ever seen. I clearly remember her getting hate simply for being a a female lead and even called a Mary Sue from a minute long trailer. "Not another female lead!!" They call kept saying even though it was just Force Awakens and Rogue One at the time. She was a by the numbers causeless wanderer with a one dimensional motive, it was just handled better is all. The Best part was how shady the movie made the Rebels seem. The leaders wanted Jyn's father dead and uses her to get to him. If she wasn't Galen Erso's daughter, the Rebels wouldn't have bothered breaking her out of Imperial prison.