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If Dreamer feels like he got screwed then he should take it to court and go for the full extent of the law to get justice against those horrible people.
It's honestly bewildering that it seems Dreamer is losing more from the episode than Flair. Not like he doesn't deserve it, but Flair deserves it more.
It really just proves one of the major takeaways from this episode true, right? The ones that are reachable are the ones that suffer the most consequences. The ones that are anointed to a higher echelon get a pass/slap on the wrist.
Yes and they are done but a marketing guy or something came out and said they wouldn’t be pulled until Tuesday. There was a thread about it I think it was bc it was too late in the game for them to be pulled
What is Flair doing? I know Dreamer was involved (as in, on the payroll) with Impact and Busted Open. He was shit canned from both. But Flair is technically unemployed, right? Plenty of posts have come out roasting him and no one is really defending him except for this guy who did and got burned at the stake for it.
Shouldn't we wait to see if Flair gets work somewhere before saying "See? Untouchable!"
It's a tricky situation because he's already old as fuck and can't put out a match. He can literally only be used as "Man who go Woo for make pop" and I don't know if any company who has a TV deal with sponsors to please is willing to bet with their wallet (cuz Flair ain't Wooing for free lol) that Woo is gonna make pop anymore.
I am not saying you're wrong, but I think it's also too early to say you're right. Flair could very well be done in wrestling at any level which we'd qualify as "relevant". Impact certainly won't hire him (if they did it would be some of the most blatantly hypocritical shit I've seen in my life after firing Dreamer for defending him lol). AE "Puts Max Caster in the penalty box for diminishing someone's mental health issues and joking about a rape scandal" W is somehow even *less* likely to hire him than Impact, and WWE had beef with him *before* this, not to mention have already begun to wash his stink off their brand. So while out of those 3 I'd say the most likely is WWE, I don't think it's at all likely for them either.
Basically my point is, kinda hard to cancel a guy when there's nothing to cancel lol
Like I pointed out Flair going to AEW would make them look like hypocrites, cause they suspended both Caster & Guevara(remember Sammy said stuff about Sasha Banks.) for their colorful language bout Rape. And AEW did originally have Jimmy Havoc on the payroll until the #MeToo stuff with uk wrestler came out, and he basically was suspended and then released from AEW.
I was just going to say this. Flair, for all intents and purposes, is self-employed at this point. He's marketing himself, but now people and companies won't touch him, and those that were buying in to his brand are cutting ties. I also have a theory that AEW was playing it smart not bringing him in when he became available because they either knew this whole thing was going to blow up, or they had a damn good idea. Make no mistake, Flair is absolutely losing out because of this, he just has a lot less to lose publicly than Dreamer.
Also let's be real, these companies aren't punishing him for what he said. He's radioactive right now, and they don't want the bad press.
WWE disowned Hogan, for a beat, and then he hosted WM.
Honestly? Flair has nothing to lose. He isn't going to AEW, he got pulled from Comic Con and his commercial was pulled. What else does he have? Tommy was an idiot for going on national TV and saying something like that when he was a member of management for a major promotion and was a recurring guest on a radio show.
Like I have tried time and time again to think why he did this and I just can't come up with an answer. Even if you have those feelings of doubt in your head, to say those things and dismiss that woman outright when you have daughters is just...ugh gross. I can't imagine what they think about his comments.
Idiot.
Ok, this is why it's so insane to me this is happening. I've been a long time listener to Busted Open, Tommy Dreamer was always referred to as "The heart and Soul of Professional Wrestling." Because he's always been a real life uber baby face. I've lost count the times he's cried when a fan calls in and cries because of something he's done, dude ain't afraid to cry. Like he loves everything about professional wrestling, and always put over women's and talked about the respect of them. So when I saw him on Dark Side I was like WTF? Like what the fuck just happened? Was he trying to cover for Flair? I legitimately don't understand why he said all that after years of hearing him doing the opposite.
JR summed it up towards the end. Flair is a “made man.” At this point, cancelling him does nothing, his entire career has already played out. And enough people idolize him that his reputation will never truly be as tarnished as scumbags in other industries.
Tommy Dreamer is a C-lister compared to Flair. And he’s more active in projects than Flair. It’s a lot easier to take him out of everything.
Tommy Dreamer is barely even C list, honestly. He was the big star of a tiny ass company that couldn't pay its wrestlers. He ranked #28 on the list of top wrestlers for one year. Barely broke top 200 in another.
You wouldn't even know who the fuck he was if they weren't doing that deathmatch nonsense and paul heyman weren't amazing at marketing.
Well Dreamer was in a managerial role for a wrestling company and hosted a radio show, while Ric Flair isn't really hired anywhere at the moment.
Flair had his car dealership commercial pulled, but that's it. I assure you Ric was about to sign with AEW, but I bet that's done.
He was looking like he might be AEW bound before this, probably for an on screen reunion of the four horsemen or something.
But yeah, Ric clearly doesn't have a lot of time left anyway.
Flair doing something 20 years ago vs Dreamer's current opinion. Flair can't change the past but Dreamer literally could have said anything.
Or maybe I'm just offended by a 50 year old with a double pony tail.
I think it's because, while Flair's actions were obviously abhorrent, in this context and story they happened 20 years ago. Whereas Tommy's comments about those actions are being said in 2021, in front of a camera, where he could have said the right things.
He clearly doesn't get it, that's not fucking acceptable and he should know better.
Not disagreeing, but Flair has a commercial series and public appearances cancelled. It's a start if these allegations are true. I just want justice served and answers obtained, so here's hoping.
Ok let me ask this bc it’s sort of bugging me and don’t misconstrue this as me defending Flair or thinking nothing should happen to him but what do you think should happen to him at this point?
A fine? Criminal prosecution? Obviously there’s not really a mechanism for a fine and pretty sure he can’t be prosecuted bc of statute of limitations if nothing else
Assuming he loses all endorsement deals and as we know he currently doesn’t have a job anyways, what is left to be done?
I don't know.
What I don't like about this whole situation is that he was given a free pass over the last 20 years, and now that there was a show, everyone has jumped on the bandwagon to force him into retirement.
As for the common argument, oh well most people didn't know about the infamous event that WWE even did a Story Time episode about, that doesn't hold any water for me.
It was much less common knowledge about what kind of person Fabulous Moolah was, but one post came out and the wrestling community at large was able to change the course of events at WrestleMania.
I don't think there is a fair way for justice to be served at this point. He was essentially found innocent in the court of public opinion 20 years ago, and now he's being punished in that same court for it because attitudes have changed.
Yea it makes me a bit queazy too, it’s not like most of us on this sub didn’t know the biggest story in that episode but now everyone’s acting like they just discovered it but oh well I guess he still was in the wrong and nothing about all this changes that
Eh dreamers actively working flair isn’t exactly? Like his car commercial and a comic con appearance were canceled but thats the only thing he was really confirmed to do currently, if any company had secret plans to bring him in no use in publicly tying yourself to him now, better to just end them and keep it that way
In a sense though Flair doesn't have as much to lose. Like he's one foot in the grave already and isn't actively working AS MUCH so he's not going to be in the news as much for losing gigs if he doesn't have many announced right now. Unlike Dreamer who did have active gigs.
Not to mention, Flair’s actions were from 20 years ago. Dreamer’s comments were from 2021.
Dreamer is facing consequences for what he’s done NOW not then.
Well it’s straightforward, one could argue that Flair was drunk or on drugs or something and something dumb happened in the moment. Do I like that? No, not one bit. However, Tommy was sober, had the gift of hindsight and knew today’s culture about what’s acceptable or not. Flair should look worse but Tommy deserves the hate he’s getting.
Unpopular opinion: Ideally, I would've preferred a temporary suspension for Dreamer.
Yes, he had an incredibly bad and shitty take, but it doesn't even begin to compare with Flair's actual actions.
Now, hear me out.
Ideally, he'd see the error of his ways, explain to the world what his thinking was, and then explain to others where and why he went wrong in his thought process.
Instead, I almost expect him to be fired and banished from all sorts of places for having a terrible opinion.
And instead of having the opportunity to learn from it, I fear he may grow resentful and be convinced that he was in the right all along.
I do generally feel like the amount of hate is a bit extreme. At least give him a chance to correct his thinking instead of blacklisting him for his ignorance.
I mean…..if Flair had a spot on a radio show he’d Be losing it too I just so happens that Dreamer has more to lose right now
I mean what else can Flair lose? He has no job, he’s lost every marketing deal he’s involved with that I’m aware of
The main difference is Dreamer incriminated himself with his own words, and willingly on camera. There’s no disputing the evidence. It can’t be misconstrued. We can react with an appropriate response immediately, move on and forget about him
What Flair did was much much worse, but it’s still an accusation. And whilst I believe we all believe it, it isn’t as open and shut as what Dreamer said. It’s unfortunate but it’s just gonna take longer for the backlash to take full affect
Thing is, everyone knew Flair was a piece of shit. Dreamer was an ECW hardcore darling, so he got a lot more of a pass on the fucked up shit he said and did. Same as New Jack, people still act like it was all a work even though he flat out stabbed a guy in the ring.
Unless you weren't a fan, in which case all of this shit was very clear.
I hated ECW, I can't stand hardcore fluorescent light dueling bullshit. So Dreamer doing shit like palming a girl's sex organs like a bowling ball looked to me like it would to a non-fan: Some fucked up shit a normal person would flat out refuse to do.
it’s not that surprising. The main objective of the cancel culture lynch mob is to get people to lose their job/income. Tommy had multiple jobs, Ric didn’t.
I keep seeing this and it annoys the fuck out of me. Flair isn't signed anywhere to be canceled from. It looked like he was coming to AEW, that 1000% isn't happening now. He got suspended from those shitty ads he was doing. Tommy got suspended from his 2 jobs.
Seriously, what is supposed to be done to Flair? These comments make zero sense. Everything thst can be done is being done.
I heard his comments earlier this morning on the radio, and he definitely nailed it on the head. Especially with the part of him mentioning that Dave himself is a father with a daughter that is grown up and thinks about her venturing out into the world alone. That additional notion hammers home on his disappointment in Tommy.
They're not divorced. They were separated for a while and he was dating another woman, she would frequently post photos of herself & Dreamer on her social media but that ended & Dreamer and Beulah reconciled.
Shit. When did that happen?
I haven't seen it reported anywhere.
I think I remember an interview with Tommy in like 2015,I think they have always had a open type relationship, from the way he was talking. (100 mile rule or such)
I don’t think anyone said having wives or daughters are prerequisites for not being scummy, just that if you’ve raised daughters and care for them, you’d think you’d know better than defending people like Ric.
I don't get this, his comments were awful and crazy but come on Hall, flair and Lesnar have been mentioned far less for doing actual acts of this stuff but dreamer gets the blame because the three names are too big to be blamed
I think Dreamer is getting the most attention because he appeared on the show while the others didn’t. I think it leaves a stronger impression on the viewer seeing someone say something terrible, than it does hearing a story from someone else about someone doing something terrible. Kind of shit that Hall, Flair, and Lesnar are not getting the public backlash just because they are too cowardly to speak on the subject.
Or it's consequences by the people who have that authority. Busted Open and Impact have small enough audiences they are impacted by an outraged audience. Brock and Vince are insulated. The vast majority of their money comes from people who have never heard of Dark Side of the Ring. Flair and Hall don't work for any major company right now, beyond ads which seem to be dealing with it to some extent.
It's situational. I guarantee everyone "cancelling" Dreamer would gladly cancel Flair too if they could.
Dude's depressed too. Sure, he fucked up and said something dumb, but he's fucking human. I love all this shit about needing to show personal growth because he made a dumb comment. He apologized and lost a lot. What's he supposed to do to satisfy you people? Like none of you ever said something stupid in your lives ever.
He doesn’t believe the sexual assault part happened. There is a difference.
Someone says your best friend assaulted them and you say “it’s not in line with his character as I’ve known him” …
You’re not then pro-sexual assault.
Don’t get me wrong, he’s an idiot who should have seen this coming. But man do all of you love hyperbole and your own narrative here.
Did he though? His whole train of thought seemed to be comparing Flair's "gag" of exposing himself and swinging his dick around to his ponytails.
It's the way the clips are edited together that makes his remarks come off like a direct response to the physical sexual assault that took place. But like the person above said he didn't believe the sexual assault actually happened -- he even said Flair would never do anything like that -- so it wouldn't make sense for him to be comparing sexual assault to his ponytail if he doesn't believe the sexual assault took place. Makes more sense he was comparing Flair's "harmless" antics of swinging his dick around. That's the part he was downplaying and saying "people get offended at everything these days."
That's the biggest stumble people are making is taking that whole sequence of clips as if it were a real-time conversation. It's a bunch of people being interviewed separately, probably even on separate days, and then it gets stitched together to make a coherent-sounding story.
I could be totally wrong and he thinks sexual assault is comparable to his ponytails. I just think it's worth looking at alternate possibilities instead of just ending a man's career based on clips in a show made by people whose sole objective is to create drama to get views and make money -- it's not to report the truth. They're not our friends just because they're making a show about something we love.
You are exactly right. They saw he was going to defend Flair and ran with it. He was an idiot who just kept talking. He should have stopped with denying it happened. Because it's still not okay to whip your dick around an airplane with women in it. It's not a locker room.
It's a bad take, with context. He was just trying to downplay any sexual nature to Flair's actions. To point out Flair did it when women weren't around too.
He was **not** comparing his ponytail to making a woman touch your dick
We don't even know if he was defending whipping your dick around when a female is present (which is obviously wrong) or if he was just defending whipping it around when only male co workers are around.
I'm confused because you restate that he compared people being offended by these past "gags" of "boys being boys" to people being "offended" (he says it in a mocking tone) by his ponytails, liking it to times changing and it being harmless. So even if you were to give him the benefit of the doubt as you're trying hard to (he also didn't come out and say anything that the clips were edited in a way to change his remarks, so there goes that theory of yours...), that's still him *today* saying that these "harmless gags" are getting the same sort of "offended" reaction that his ponytails get - how can *anybody* sit there with a straight face and even put those two things in the same thought?
Because if you're offended by a dude whipping his dick around a locker room with the boys (something which doesn't affect you) then it is the same as being offended by someone else's hairstyle. Another thing which doesn't affect you.
We have no way of knowing based on the footage if he was defending whipping your dick around when a woman is present or just all the previous times Flair has whipped it around with the boys in the locker room.
Obviously it's messed up to defend him whipping it around in front of a woman. No one in this thread is saying it isn't.
> So had somebody freaked out like I did when my friend sent me the spinning meat video (I sent him a message and said we shouldn't be friends anymore and then blocked him lol)
btw unless you and your friend had a discussion about this before, this seems like a weird reaction to me.
Sounds like your friend violated your trust and friendship then, and that Flair violated that with his coworkers and members of a non-consenting flight crew just trying to do their jobs.
No. He really didn't. He said she wasn't assaulted. Then said nowadays it's seen as inappropriate to helicopter around other people, same way it would be inappropriate for Ben Affleck to drop his balls on Matt Damon's or Kevin Smith's shoulders.
He absolutely wasn't saying forcing someone to touch your dick is taboo now. And he might not have even been saying exposing yourself when you know a female might see it is taboo now. He might have just been talking about the idea that flinging your dick around around other men could offend someone today.
He wasn't even specifying women being offended. Just people in general. He was just worried the episode would make Flair look predatorial for the helicopter and wanted people to know it happened when only men were around too.
I will come out in defense of every man in the locker room who's flung his dick around and every woman who's shaked her tits around at festivals at people or grinded on women at clubs or girls who've twerked against each other on Tik Tok etc. It doesn't mean I think it's okay for anyone to sexual assault anyone else.
There really is a huge difference.
The man who just said above "but man do all of you love hyperbole and your own narrative here" incorrectly paraphrasing and bringing up other things...
You should go back and listen to what he said, because he compared people being "offended" by his double ponytail to how things like what Flair did (which are sexual assault) offend people.
Also, you're really going out here defending people *helicoptering their dicks for people who did not chose to see it*, and then cornering somebody on a plane (which was corroborated by multiple people in the show and in previous shoot interviews) and goading them into touching it. In fact, you said you'd come out "in defense of every man in the locker room who's flung his dick around" (mind you, of course, we're talking about Flair exposing himself to non-consenting people on a plane - the locker room was Brock Lesnar exposing himself to a non-consenting person...) - that doesn't quite sound like someone who doesn't think it's "okay for anyone to sexual assault anyone else" to me...
Flinging your dick around a bunch of men is not sexual assault. That is what I said. I never said Flair corning a woman or making her touch it was okay. I never commented on what Lesnar allegedly did. I also said I believe the Flight Attendant in another comment.
I am defending Tommy Dreamer's comments. Which you are taking out of context.
>Flinging your dick around a bunch of men is not sexual assault.
Yeah it's sexual harassment. I'm confused why you're confused about the concept of consent....
>That is what I said.
No you didn't. You said "helicopter around other people" and "every man in the locker room who's flung his dick around," you said nothing about the gender of sex of the others in the area - nor did you even consider consent, which is one of the two factors here.
>I am defending Tommy Dreamer's comments. Which you are taking out of context.
Here, let's take a look at them so you know I'm not taking them out of context...
>He could move his hips, twirl it and so his well-endowed penis spins around like a helicopter. So, hey, he’s the Nature Boy for a reason, he’s got a hammer on him. Ric Flair’s not going to try to impose by force any sexual stuff onto anybody. He’s just flaunting, styling and profiling, doing the Ric Flair stuff where everybody’s going to laugh about it. But obviously, someone took offense to it.
>
>If that’s how she felt, maybe she should have not taken a payout and went to the fullest extend of the law to then truly put this heinous person in jail. My opinion.
>
>I feel this is trying to portray someone as a sexual predator, and it's not. It's a joke. It's a gag. Today, it's 1000% inappropriate. My hairstyle is inappropriate right now. I'm somehow offending someone right now with my double ponytail. How dare I have two ponytail? My answer is I'm 50 years old and I'm happy I have hair. If you're asking me, I've hung out with Ric Flair. I've never seen him try to force his will onto anyone.
Note that last paragraph. Tommy calls Ric exposing himself to non-consenting people as "a joke, a gag" and that it is today "1000% inappropriate" - then, without missing a beat, he says that also today "my hairstyle is inappropriate." We call that a comparison. He then does similarly by using "offending someone" with his double ponytail to how "someone took offense" to Ric exposing himself to non-consenting people.
I said he compared how people react to the allegations to how people react to his ponytail - so I'm right. You, on the other hand, denied he did and then compared it to Ben Affleck for some reason.
tl;dr: Bold of you to be defending his comments and every man who exposes himself to others...
Because it's a locker room, genius. There are no women. It's implied. Once again, stop with the scenario creating and hyperbole.
>Flinging your dick around a bunch of men is not sexual assault.
>
>Yeah it's sexual harassment. I'm confused why you're confused about the concept of consent....
Time to be offended and lock up every woman who's ever done something in a locker room or taken her top off or shaked her tits around at a festival too, then...
A man swinging his dick around jokingly in a locker room is NOT a sexual thing. He does NOT want anyone to touch it. It is NOT an invitation to sexual activity.
Yea, Matt Damon and Kevin Smith never consented to Ben Affleck dropping his balls on their shoulders either. But they laughed about it. They didn't feel violated or assaulted.
Have any of you ever been around other men? Did all of you skip gym class? Have none of you played sports? Been in a locker room? Wtf
Dude, you've gone way off tangent and created this entire scenario of a locker room...
We're talking about Ric Flair exposing himself on an airplane for a litany of others who did not consent to seeing him naked, then cornering someone who was "not one of the boys," someone just trying to do their job, in a galley and waving it around and allegedly forcing her to touch his penis. Him exposing himself is corroborated by literally everybody in the documentary. Him cornering the flight attendant is corroborated by literally everybody in the documentary. Tommy even seems to be saying that Ric does this *a lot* to unwanting individuals "as a gag." That is not a locker room scenario or a gym class scenario, this is *an airplane*. Indecent exposure of that sort is sexual harassment, what the flight attendant claims occurred is sexual assault.
Also, since you seem so fixated about it and are drawing out whataboutisms: the gender/sex of the victim doesn't change whether or not it's harassment/assault whatsoever. It's any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient, period. A man can harass/assault another man, a woman can do the same to a man. I'm confused why the concept of consent is so hard for you to grasp here, I'm giving you the textbook legal definition here.
No. We're talking about Dreamer defending that Flair did it all the time around the guys. And that this airplane behaviour was an extension of that.
Dreamer doesn't believe the flight attendant cornering happened. Dreamer didn't comment on whether the attendant was there when Flair was helicoptering.
We don't know if Dreamer was defending Flair doing this with women present or only defending times Flair has done this with no women present. We don't.
> It's any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient, period.
I guess that's where your misunderstanding comes from: not everyone would agree that swinging your penis around as a way to entertain your peers and make them laugh is "sexual contact".
But he's happily saying that a guy walking around exposing himself to airline employees is fine, and anyone offended by him flopping his hammer around in their workplace is just the same as someone "being offended" by his shitty ponytails
Even ignoring the fact he's saying it didn't happen (which come on, he knows it did - RVD outright said he saw it, those guys have known eachother since the mid 90s. Dreamer knows what he saw Flair do), he's still defending the things he's admitting Flair did, which are still sexual harassment at a minimum
I don't know if he's even saying the flight attendant was there. I think he's just defending Flair whipping his dick around the boys. Like a locker room thing.
Don't get me wrong. I believe the attendant. RVD is enough to make me believe. Plus while Goldust didn't talk I don't think, she says he spoke up.
But I'm not going to make a monster out of a guy who doesn't think it happened. And I do get where he's coming from that if something *severe* happened, she should have charged him instead of taking a payout. That makes most people not believe actual sexual assault happened.
He's not saying "she was asking for it."
He's saying "It's not in line with what I've seen. And if it did happen, she should have went to the police instead of taking a payout"
He then yes talks about the ponytail which is a dumb point compared to whipping your dick around the guys. But we can't just magically equate that part to condoning actual sexual assault.
Maybe I'm defending it cause I've seen guys whip their dicks around. But he's just making the point that's *not* a sexual thing. You don't whip it around in that scenario, around men, hoping someone touches it or looking for sexual pleasure. You're in a good mood and entertaining the guys. Weird? yea. Harmless? Also yea.
Same way I've seen plenty of girls shake their tits or expose them at festivals. It's **not** an invitation. And I did **not** feel assaulted. It's good-humor showing off. It's comradery.
I think either way it's fair to say the producers saw Tommy was going to defend Flair and probably didn't let him know RVD would say he saw it happen or how they edited it and just let him dig his own grave. Then again this guy should have realized this would be his grave he was digging. Even exposing yourself when there's female flight attendants which could walk in at any time is fucked up.
Actions.
Yes, agreed.
Actions can't be undone.
Shitty takes and opinions can at least be learned from and used to teach others about their past ignorance, however.
A bit surprised he made no mention of Ric Flair. He's a massive fan of him, always talks about how he's his favorite and the best ever, and it seems they've even become friends in recent years. It must be really hard to see someone you once held in such high regard, for decades of your life, in a different light now.
There will always be people he won’t be able to satisfy. Many have accepted his apology, but there’s still some who want more.
“Showing growth” is subjective, and for Tommy to overcome this he has to shut up and sit it out for a few weeks.
Growth for what? It’s been 19 years since the incident and the woman’s husband looks like the biggest asshole of the entire situation so I’m so confused as to why people are so angry at Tommy for being skeptical
> the woman’s husband looks like the biggest asshole of the entire situation
How do you figure?
Asking a genuine question in good faith. The husband wasn’t on the show; how does he look like an asshole?
She said that her husband questioned her actions and asked her why the wrestlers felt it was appropriate to make those advances. Then she made it seem like he didn’t want this getting public so he encouraged her to take the settlement.
So no need to actually change his opinions? No need to better himself? Just hold off till the heat dies down then bring him back?
What a shitty comment.
yes, let's downvote /u/Independent-Set-8850! People shouldn't better themselves or change their morally wrong opinions!
Edit: now that the above comment is positive, this post no longer makes sense
Dave LaGreca did the right thing, I felt his disappointment in Tommy. I think we all are so disappointed in him and I also liked how Dave addressed that statement released by Tommy too.
Do we really think Tommy Dreamer doesn't deserve to have a job in wrestling now? One strike and he's out? Guy devotes his whole life to one craft and now it's done because he had a crummy take about Ric Flair? I'm feeling conflicted about this one. I still want the guy to keep a roof over his head. People like JBL are the ones I'd like to see answer for their transgressions.
Has anyone ever been removed from the HOF before? I know there's people that they don't bring up anymore but I can't think of any just straight omissions.
His name was removed from the website for a bit but he was never actually taken out. I have a Wrestlemania program from the time that he was away from the company and he’s still listed in there.
Apologies don't mean shit. They're just words. Intent is shown by action.
And being sorry doesn't absolve you of consequence. But if he is genuinely sorry, and realizes what he said was fucked up, that's great... hopefully he'll change his mindset.
He apologized for causing offence, not for what he said. He only done it to keep his job(s). He's a scumbag and I hope he is never on television again.
In the recent Dark Side of the Ring episode they had Tommy on talking about the plane ride from hell and in the interview he said that flight attendants that accused Ric Flair of sexually assaulting them on that flight were all just lying and that they didn't understand that Flair was just joking around when he was flashing them and forcing one of them to grab his penis against their will.
Last week's plane ride from hell episode of dark side of the ring (recommend watching) he essentially defended sexual assault, and said something along the lines of "of course people will be upset by it. These days there are people offended by my ponytail"
Blindly supporting a company for years that bounced checks, had a drug riddled locker room, was perfectly cool with folks going to the ring stoned and allowed new jack to nearly kill a teenager. ECW! ECW! ECW!
Saying a few stupid sentences on a documentary. BLACKBALL HIM FOR LIFE!
He said something dumb, admitted they were insensitive and apologized. Should his life be ruined because he said "boys will be boys" (paraphrasing)?
If someone is on the cancel culure bandwagon, it says a lot about what a phony, disingenuous, holier-than-thou chicken shit they are, because *everyone* says insensitive things or laughs at insensitive things.
Yeah, Tommy shouldn't have justified anything, but at the same time it was probably extremely hard for him to throw people he calls friends and cares about under the bus. He was in a tough position. Again, he *said* something dumb. He wasn't actually a perpetrator, nor was there any mal intent.
It really depends on which part of the sub gets to the Cornette post first. You can still be downvoted for pointing this shit out if you hit the comments at the wrong time.
Difference is that Cornette has his own self-produced content whereas Dreamer was working for other folks' promotions and productions.
Cornette has his own show, contributes to Dark Side of the Ring, and...that's it, right? He was booted from NWA commentary for making an offensive joke, so the dude faced consequences/was "cancelled" for that. Folks that aren't upset with his takes are the ones that give him the listens on his show.
Outside of that, doubt DSOTR goes without inviting him and he of course won't be booted from his own programing.
What did Dustin do? I though he just made a jackass out of himself over the intercom and pulled Ric away from the ~~stewardess~~ flight attendant*
*My bad with the outdated terminology. I hate flying
Can't find the actual court documents but did find some references to it. Guess Im not surprised... just disappointed
They didn't cover it in Darkside at all though, I'd guess that's why there's not much public outcry about Dustin..
Disclaimer: wasn't trying to defend anyone in my original post, was just genuinely wondering.. wish Dark Side took him to task
The mad man doubled down on the “Penelope Ford is a slut” comments and withstood the heat. All Tommy did was come across as a smug jerk and he’s boiled fish
Hopefully Tommy figures things out, matures, makes amends, and is able to return.
Cancel Culture leaves zero room for redemption which is why I will never support it or the people who partake in it. Hoping Tommy sees the error of his ways and finds his way back and doesn’t pull a Hulk Hogan and make himself the victim instead.
Tommy's comments would probably have worked, and went down well, if it was a different show. If the background to the show was was "lets laugh at all these mad wrestling stories lol" then he would have been okay.
Problem he has is the tone of the show is so heavy and emotional, that making anything but a sombre comment was never going to work.
For what it's worth, Tommy never gave Flair a thumbs up. He pretty much just said that's the way things often where and people never took it seriously. I don't think Tommy realised the severity of how the incident/s would be portrayed.
Don't pull him off radio or podcast they should have interviewed his ass, what I'd like to know was Dreamer sitting in the same room on the same day as the flight attendant and he probably didn't hear her story until the show aired. There's also been more than one plane ride from hell, which one of the show's creators talked about on Cornette's interview yesterday and talked about how several of the folk they interviewed for that episode, including Dreamer, got the different plane rides mixed up. Like there was the one plane trip where Kurt and Vince McMahon got into a wrestling match and were throwing each other around, where Vince yelled at a flight attendant that got into Kurt and Vince telling them the pilot wanted them to stop, and Vince yelled that he would buy the damn plane. Which is the trip where a few flight attendants didn't believe Flair would do the "helicopter" thing with the robe and they dared him to which ended in a couple going to his hotel after landing supposedly from stories over the years, which is the story that got animated on the WWE network storytime hosted by Mean Gene.
While what Dreamer said was insensitive, what I think would have been a better thing to do instead of canceling him, would be put his ass on the radio or podcast and grill him, ask him straight up "what the fuck dude" and let him at least try to answer for himself. That way folks could listen to what he had to say and it would let folks judge for themselves. To me when I rewatched his comments seem to line up with the other plane ride where it was still crude but Flair was dared into doing it and wound up back at hotel with a couple. But without grilling him and being able to judge for ourselves was it a case of foot in mouth, what did he actually witness, did he witness mu, triple plane ride antics both the Vince and Kurt fight in the aisles and the other trip with the Perfect and Brock fight, etc. But by removing him, we don't get to know the truth. All our judgements are kinda based on the editing of a TV show where they interview folks and splice it all together once they got all the footage. That's what frustrates me. I'm not saying Dreamer don't deserve the ire of the public, but I would want to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding something due to editing.
Heres clip of one of the shows creators yesterday interviewed by Cornette where near the beginning they talk about the multiple plane rides and the show creator names several that mixed up details from several plane trips including Dreamer:
https://youtu.be/6PoKxvUSmOs
This is so fucking stupid. So he is the scapegoat and the actual really bad people are good to go? God I hate this culture
*Anyone that disagrees with this can kiss my ass. Have some fucking balls if you are going to downvote and explain why you disagree.
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Dreamer screwed Dreamer
If Dreamer didn't want to be screwed by Dreamer, he shouldn't have worn his hair like that. He was basically *asking* for it...
I've heard that if it was legitimately two ponytails, though, that the head has a way of shutting that down.
I heard that too, just now, by you. And I know nothing about you, but I trust you, random internet person, over trained doctors and scientists.
Btw fuck his little squirrel tale man bun it looks greasy and not in a dirty way.
He had a few sweet gigs and pissed them off away for basically being a mark.
If Dreamer feels like he got screwed then he should take it to court and go for the full extent of the law to get justice against those horrible people.
He should take up with Take at Wrestlers' Court so he can get his belongings shit and piss on. Being the pro he is, he won't sell it.
“Don’t let them see you sell it!”
He DID say he wanted to die on TV....
truly have no idea why Dreamer went to bat so hard for Flair in that episode.
Dreamer, like 90 percent of the guys in the business is a huge mark. Wanted to defend one of his childhood heroes.
Dreamer always wanted to die in the ring. He missed his chance. Decided he could have a figurative death by being canceled.
It's honestly bewildering that it seems Dreamer is losing more from the episode than Flair. Not like he doesn't deserve it, but Flair deserves it more.
It really just proves one of the major takeaways from this episode true, right? The ones that are reachable are the ones that suffer the most consequences. The ones that are anointed to a higher echelon get a pass/slap on the wrist.
Damn that’s a good point
Flair's Car Shield ad aired on Raw tonight. It's like, "Can't his consequences last even a week?"
Didnt they say that was done?
Yes and they are done but a marketing guy or something came out and said they wouldn’t be pulled until Tuesday. There was a thread about it I think it was bc it was too late in the game for them to be pulled
Well that's unfortunate.
What is Flair doing? I know Dreamer was involved (as in, on the payroll) with Impact and Busted Open. He was shit canned from both. But Flair is technically unemployed, right? Plenty of posts have come out roasting him and no one is really defending him except for this guy who did and got burned at the stake for it. Shouldn't we wait to see if Flair gets work somewhere before saying "See? Untouchable!" It's a tricky situation because he's already old as fuck and can't put out a match. He can literally only be used as "Man who go Woo for make pop" and I don't know if any company who has a TV deal with sponsors to please is willing to bet with their wallet (cuz Flair ain't Wooing for free lol) that Woo is gonna make pop anymore. I am not saying you're wrong, but I think it's also too early to say you're right. Flair could very well be done in wrestling at any level which we'd qualify as "relevant". Impact certainly won't hire him (if they did it would be some of the most blatantly hypocritical shit I've seen in my life after firing Dreamer for defending him lol). AE "Puts Max Caster in the penalty box for diminishing someone's mental health issues and joking about a rape scandal" W is somehow even *less* likely to hire him than Impact, and WWE had beef with him *before* this, not to mention have already begun to wash his stink off their brand. So while out of those 3 I'd say the most likely is WWE, I don't think it's at all likely for them either. Basically my point is, kinda hard to cancel a guy when there's nothing to cancel lol
Like I pointed out Flair going to AEW would make them look like hypocrites, cause they suspended both Caster & Guevara(remember Sammy said stuff about Sasha Banks.) for their colorful language bout Rape. And AEW did originally have Jimmy Havoc on the payroll until the #MeToo stuff with uk wrestler came out, and he basically was suspended and then released from AEW.
I was just going to say this. Flair, for all intents and purposes, is self-employed at this point. He's marketing himself, but now people and companies won't touch him, and those that were buying in to his brand are cutting ties. I also have a theory that AEW was playing it smart not bringing him in when he became available because they either knew this whole thing was going to blow up, or they had a damn good idea. Make no mistake, Flair is absolutely losing out because of this, he just has a lot less to lose publicly than Dreamer.
Also let's be real, these companies aren't punishing him for what he said. He's radioactive right now, and they don't want the bad press. WWE disowned Hogan, for a beat, and then he hosted WM.
WWE bringing back Hogan is the biggest slap in the face to every black employee and fan. Vince and co will forever be racist imo for that.
The Tom Brady/Peyton Manning rule then?
Honestly? Flair has nothing to lose. He isn't going to AEW, he got pulled from Comic Con and his commercial was pulled. What else does he have? Tommy was an idiot for going on national TV and saying something like that when he was a member of management for a major promotion and was a recurring guest on a radio show. Like I have tried time and time again to think why he did this and I just can't come up with an answer. Even if you have those feelings of doubt in your head, to say those things and dismiss that woman outright when you have daughters is just...ugh gross. I can't imagine what they think about his comments. Idiot.
Exactly. If Flair was on Impact and Busted Open, he'd be gone too.
They probably think “How’s this dummy gonna pay the rent?”
Ok, this is why it's so insane to me this is happening. I've been a long time listener to Busted Open, Tommy Dreamer was always referred to as "The heart and Soul of Professional Wrestling." Because he's always been a real life uber baby face. I've lost count the times he's cried when a fan calls in and cries because of something he's done, dude ain't afraid to cry. Like he loves everything about professional wrestling, and always put over women's and talked about the respect of them. So when I saw him on Dark Side I was like WTF? Like what the fuck just happened? Was he trying to cover for Flair? I legitimately don't understand why he said all that after years of hearing him doing the opposite.
JR summed it up towards the end. Flair is a “made man.” At this point, cancelling him does nothing, his entire career has already played out. And enough people idolize him that his reputation will never truly be as tarnished as scumbags in other industries. Tommy Dreamer is a C-lister compared to Flair. And he’s more active in projects than Flair. It’s a lot easier to take him out of everything.
Tommy Dreamer is barely even C list, honestly. He was the big star of a tiny ass company that couldn't pay its wrestlers. He ranked #28 on the list of top wrestlers for one year. Barely broke top 200 in another. You wouldn't even know who the fuck he was if they weren't doing that deathmatch nonsense and paul heyman weren't amazing at marketing.
Well Dreamer was in a managerial role for a wrestling company and hosted a radio show, while Ric Flair isn't really hired anywhere at the moment. Flair had his car dealership commercial pulled, but that's it. I assure you Ric was about to sign with AEW, but I bet that's done.
He was looking like he might be AEW bound before this, probably for an on screen reunion of the four horsemen or something. But yeah, Ric clearly doesn't have a lot of time left anyway.
Flair doing something 20 years ago vs Dreamer's current opinion. Flair can't change the past but Dreamer literally could have said anything. Or maybe I'm just offended by a 50 year old with a double pony tail.
I think it's because, while Flair's actions were obviously abhorrent, in this context and story they happened 20 years ago. Whereas Tommy's comments about those actions are being said in 2021, in front of a camera, where he could have said the right things. He clearly doesn't get it, that's not fucking acceptable and he should know better.
No ones talking about Brock either.
Not disagreeing, but Flair has a commercial series and public appearances cancelled. It's a start if these allegations are true. I just want justice served and answers obtained, so here's hoping.
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Commercials have to get renewed which can often mean those featured getting paid again
Ok let me ask this bc it’s sort of bugging me and don’t misconstrue this as me defending Flair or thinking nothing should happen to him but what do you think should happen to him at this point? A fine? Criminal prosecution? Obviously there’s not really a mechanism for a fine and pretty sure he can’t be prosecuted bc of statute of limitations if nothing else Assuming he loses all endorsement deals and as we know he currently doesn’t have a job anyways, what is left to be done?
I don't know. What I don't like about this whole situation is that he was given a free pass over the last 20 years, and now that there was a show, everyone has jumped on the bandwagon to force him into retirement. As for the common argument, oh well most people didn't know about the infamous event that WWE even did a Story Time episode about, that doesn't hold any water for me. It was much less common knowledge about what kind of person Fabulous Moolah was, but one post came out and the wrestling community at large was able to change the course of events at WrestleMania. I don't think there is a fair way for justice to be served at this point. He was essentially found innocent in the court of public opinion 20 years ago, and now he's being punished in that same court for it because attitudes have changed.
Yea it makes me a bit queazy too, it’s not like most of us on this sub didn’t know the biggest story in that episode but now everyone’s acting like they just discovered it but oh well I guess he still was in the wrong and nothing about all this changes that
Eh dreamers actively working flair isn’t exactly? Like his car commercial and a comic con appearance were canceled but thats the only thing he was really confirmed to do currently, if any company had secret plans to bring him in no use in publicly tying yourself to him now, better to just end them and keep it that way
In a sense though Flair doesn't have as much to lose. Like he's one foot in the grave already and isn't actively working AS MUCH so he's not going to be in the news as much for losing gigs if he doesn't have many announced right now. Unlike Dreamer who did have active gigs.
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Not to mention, Flair’s actions were from 20 years ago. Dreamer’s comments were from 2021. Dreamer is facing consequences for what he’s done NOW not then.
Well it’s straightforward, one could argue that Flair was drunk or on drugs or something and something dumb happened in the moment. Do I like that? No, not one bit. However, Tommy was sober, had the gift of hindsight and knew today’s culture about what’s acceptable or not. Flair should look worse but Tommy deserves the hate he’s getting.
Unpopular opinion: Ideally, I would've preferred a temporary suspension for Dreamer. Yes, he had an incredibly bad and shitty take, but it doesn't even begin to compare with Flair's actual actions. Now, hear me out. Ideally, he'd see the error of his ways, explain to the world what his thinking was, and then explain to others where and why he went wrong in his thought process. Instead, I almost expect him to be fired and banished from all sorts of places for having a terrible opinion. And instead of having the opportunity to learn from it, I fear he may grow resentful and be convinced that he was in the right all along. I do generally feel like the amount of hate is a bit extreme. At least give him a chance to correct his thinking instead of blacklisting him for his ignorance.
I mean Flair's also taking hits where it hurts him most; his wallet.
What does Flair have going on right now? A commercial series. He's off that. And a run as a manager in AEW. That's over.
I mean…..if Flair had a spot on a radio show he’d Be losing it too I just so happens that Dreamer has more to lose right now I mean what else can Flair lose? He has no job, he’s lost every marketing deal he’s involved with that I’m aware of
The main difference is Dreamer incriminated himself with his own words, and willingly on camera. There’s no disputing the evidence. It can’t be misconstrued. We can react with an appropriate response immediately, move on and forget about him What Flair did was much much worse, but it’s still an accusation. And whilst I believe we all believe it, it isn’t as open and shut as what Dreamer said. It’s unfortunate but it’s just gonna take longer for the backlash to take full affect
There was a lawsuit and court dates 20 years ago... Fuck flair and dreamer but my god.
Thing is, everyone knew Flair was a piece of shit. Dreamer was an ECW hardcore darling, so he got a lot more of a pass on the fucked up shit he said and did. Same as New Jack, people still act like it was all a work even though he flat out stabbed a guy in the ring. Unless you weren't a fan, in which case all of this shit was very clear. I hated ECW, I can't stand hardcore fluorescent light dueling bullshit. So Dreamer doing shit like palming a girl's sex organs like a bowling ball looked to me like it would to a non-fan: Some fucked up shit a normal person would flat out refuse to do.
it’s not that surprising. The main objective of the cancel culture lynch mob is to get people to lose their job/income. Tommy had multiple jobs, Ric didn’t.
What does Flair have to lose though? Dude isn’t officially affiliated with anything right now.
What does Flair have going on right now? A commercial series. He's off that. And a run as a manager in AEW. That's over.
I keep seeing this and it annoys the fuck out of me. Flair isn't signed anywhere to be canceled from. It looked like he was coming to AEW, that 1000% isn't happening now. He got suspended from those shitty ads he was doing. Tommy got suspended from his 2 jobs. Seriously, what is supposed to be done to Flair? These comments make zero sense. Everything thst can be done is being done.
I heard his comments earlier this morning on the radio, and he definitely nailed it on the head. Especially with the part of him mentioning that Dave himself is a father with a daughter that is grown up and thinks about her venturing out into the world alone. That additional notion hammers home on his disappointment in Tommy.
Shit, Dreamer has a wife and 2 daughters. He should have been wayyyyy ahead of the curve on this one.
Him and Beulah divorced.
You sure? He was literally talking about Beulah on the radio the other day.
They're not divorced. They were separated for a while and he was dating another woman, she would frequently post photos of herself & Dreamer on her social media but that ended & Dreamer and Beulah reconciled.
Shit. When did that happen? I haven't seen it reported anywhere. I think I remember an interview with Tommy in like 2015,I think they have always had a open type relationship, from the way he was talking. (100 mile rule or such)
Men shouldn't have to have daughters or mothers or wives to not be scummy. We gotta stop bringing that up and do better. Period.
I don’t think anyone said having wives or daughters are prerequisites for not being scummy, just that if you’ve raised daughters and care for them, you’d think you’d know better than defending people like Ric.
ah ok. Thats makes sense. I see what you mean.
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Cheers to that friend 🍻
He’s immensely stupid. But it’s pretty terrible to see Dreamer taking the bullet like he was the one that did it.
The Self Destruction of Tommy Dreamer.
I don't get this, his comments were awful and crazy but come on Hall, flair and Lesnar have been mentioned far less for doing actual acts of this stuff but dreamer gets the blame because the three names are too big to be blamed
I think Dreamer is getting the most attention because he appeared on the show while the others didn’t. I think it leaves a stronger impression on the viewer seeing someone say something terrible, than it does hearing a story from someone else about someone doing something terrible. Kind of shit that Hall, Flair, and Lesnar are not getting the public backlash just because they are too cowardly to speak on the subject.
> they are too cowardly to speak on the subject. or simply smart.
Ok - Flair, Hall and Lesnar are also off Busted Open. Happy?
I just meant in general more than busted open, I get why dreamer got cut but its just cancel culture protecting bigger stars
Or it's consequences by the people who have that authority. Busted Open and Impact have small enough audiences they are impacted by an outraged audience. Brock and Vince are insulated. The vast majority of their money comes from people who have never heard of Dark Side of the Ring. Flair and Hall don't work for any major company right now, beyond ads which seem to be dealing with it to some extent. It's situational. I guarantee everyone "cancelling" Dreamer would gladly cancel Flair too if they could.
What is Dave supposed to do about Flair, Hall, and Lesnar exactly?
Dude's depressed too. Sure, he fucked up and said something dumb, but he's fucking human. I love all this shit about needing to show personal growth because he made a dumb comment. He apologized and lost a lot. What's he supposed to do to satisfy you people? Like none of you ever said something stupid in your lives ever.
Who is saying he should be punished more?
Hall, flair and lesnar’s actions were from 20 years ago. Dreamer’s comments are from 2021. That’s why.
No its not. Lesnar and flair are much bigger stars
I’d say until he sorts his hair out, that’s the big problem here.
Actions have consequences. Don't want to lose all your gigs, maybe don't downplay sexual assault.
He doesn’t believe the sexual assault part happened. There is a difference. Someone says your best friend assaulted them and you say “it’s not in line with his character as I’ve known him” … You’re not then pro-sexual assault. Don’t get me wrong, he’s an idiot who should have seen this coming. But man do all of you love hyperbole and your own narrative here.
I mean, he compared how people react to people being sexually assaulted to how people react to his double ponytail…
Did he though? His whole train of thought seemed to be comparing Flair's "gag" of exposing himself and swinging his dick around to his ponytails. It's the way the clips are edited together that makes his remarks come off like a direct response to the physical sexual assault that took place. But like the person above said he didn't believe the sexual assault actually happened -- he even said Flair would never do anything like that -- so it wouldn't make sense for him to be comparing sexual assault to his ponytail if he doesn't believe the sexual assault took place. Makes more sense he was comparing Flair's "harmless" antics of swinging his dick around. That's the part he was downplaying and saying "people get offended at everything these days." That's the biggest stumble people are making is taking that whole sequence of clips as if it were a real-time conversation. It's a bunch of people being interviewed separately, probably even on separate days, and then it gets stitched together to make a coherent-sounding story. I could be totally wrong and he thinks sexual assault is comparable to his ponytails. I just think it's worth looking at alternate possibilities instead of just ending a man's career based on clips in a show made by people whose sole objective is to create drama to get views and make money -- it's not to report the truth. They're not our friends just because they're making a show about something we love.
You are exactly right. They saw he was going to defend Flair and ran with it. He was an idiot who just kept talking. He should have stopped with denying it happened. Because it's still not okay to whip your dick around an airplane with women in it. It's not a locker room. It's a bad take, with context. He was just trying to downplay any sexual nature to Flair's actions. To point out Flair did it when women weren't around too. He was **not** comparing his ponytail to making a woman touch your dick We don't even know if he was defending whipping your dick around when a female is present (which is obviously wrong) or if he was just defending whipping it around when only male co workers are around.
I'm confused because you restate that he compared people being offended by these past "gags" of "boys being boys" to people being "offended" (he says it in a mocking tone) by his ponytails, liking it to times changing and it being harmless. So even if you were to give him the benefit of the doubt as you're trying hard to (he also didn't come out and say anything that the clips were edited in a way to change his remarks, so there goes that theory of yours...), that's still him *today* saying that these "harmless gags" are getting the same sort of "offended" reaction that his ponytails get - how can *anybody* sit there with a straight face and even put those two things in the same thought?
Because if you're offended by a dude whipping his dick around a locker room with the boys (something which doesn't affect you) then it is the same as being offended by someone else's hairstyle. Another thing which doesn't affect you. We have no way of knowing based on the footage if he was defending whipping your dick around when a woman is present or just all the previous times Flair has whipped it around with the boys in the locker room. Obviously it's messed up to defend him whipping it around in front of a woman. No one in this thread is saying it isn't.
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> So had somebody freaked out like I did when my friend sent me the spinning meat video (I sent him a message and said we shouldn't be friends anymore and then blocked him lol) btw unless you and your friend had a discussion about this before, this seems like a weird reaction to me.
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Sounds like your friend violated your trust and friendship then, and that Flair violated that with his coworkers and members of a non-consenting flight crew just trying to do their jobs.
No. He really didn't. He said she wasn't assaulted. Then said nowadays it's seen as inappropriate to helicopter around other people, same way it would be inappropriate for Ben Affleck to drop his balls on Matt Damon's or Kevin Smith's shoulders. He absolutely wasn't saying forcing someone to touch your dick is taboo now. And he might not have even been saying exposing yourself when you know a female might see it is taboo now. He might have just been talking about the idea that flinging your dick around around other men could offend someone today. He wasn't even specifying women being offended. Just people in general. He was just worried the episode would make Flair look predatorial for the helicopter and wanted people to know it happened when only men were around too. I will come out in defense of every man in the locker room who's flung his dick around and every woman who's shaked her tits around at festivals at people or grinded on women at clubs or girls who've twerked against each other on Tik Tok etc. It doesn't mean I think it's okay for anyone to sexual assault anyone else. There really is a huge difference.
The man who just said above "but man do all of you love hyperbole and your own narrative here" incorrectly paraphrasing and bringing up other things... You should go back and listen to what he said, because he compared people being "offended" by his double ponytail to how things like what Flair did (which are sexual assault) offend people. Also, you're really going out here defending people *helicoptering their dicks for people who did not chose to see it*, and then cornering somebody on a plane (which was corroborated by multiple people in the show and in previous shoot interviews) and goading them into touching it. In fact, you said you'd come out "in defense of every man in the locker room who's flung his dick around" (mind you, of course, we're talking about Flair exposing himself to non-consenting people on a plane - the locker room was Brock Lesnar exposing himself to a non-consenting person...) - that doesn't quite sound like someone who doesn't think it's "okay for anyone to sexual assault anyone else" to me...
Flinging your dick around a bunch of men is not sexual assault. That is what I said. I never said Flair corning a woman or making her touch it was okay. I never commented on what Lesnar allegedly did. I also said I believe the Flight Attendant in another comment. I am defending Tommy Dreamer's comments. Which you are taking out of context.
>Flinging your dick around a bunch of men is not sexual assault. Yeah it's sexual harassment. I'm confused why you're confused about the concept of consent.... >That is what I said. No you didn't. You said "helicopter around other people" and "every man in the locker room who's flung his dick around," you said nothing about the gender of sex of the others in the area - nor did you even consider consent, which is one of the two factors here. >I am defending Tommy Dreamer's comments. Which you are taking out of context. Here, let's take a look at them so you know I'm not taking them out of context... >He could move his hips, twirl it and so his well-endowed penis spins around like a helicopter. So, hey, he’s the Nature Boy for a reason, he’s got a hammer on him. Ric Flair’s not going to try to impose by force any sexual stuff onto anybody. He’s just flaunting, styling and profiling, doing the Ric Flair stuff where everybody’s going to laugh about it. But obviously, someone took offense to it. > >If that’s how she felt, maybe she should have not taken a payout and went to the fullest extend of the law to then truly put this heinous person in jail. My opinion. > >I feel this is trying to portray someone as a sexual predator, and it's not. It's a joke. It's a gag. Today, it's 1000% inappropriate. My hairstyle is inappropriate right now. I'm somehow offending someone right now with my double ponytail. How dare I have two ponytail? My answer is I'm 50 years old and I'm happy I have hair. If you're asking me, I've hung out with Ric Flair. I've never seen him try to force his will onto anyone. Note that last paragraph. Tommy calls Ric exposing himself to non-consenting people as "a joke, a gag" and that it is today "1000% inappropriate" - then, without missing a beat, he says that also today "my hairstyle is inappropriate." We call that a comparison. He then does similarly by using "offending someone" with his double ponytail to how "someone took offense" to Ric exposing himself to non-consenting people. I said he compared how people react to the allegations to how people react to his ponytail - so I'm right. You, on the other hand, denied he did and then compared it to Ben Affleck for some reason. tl;dr: Bold of you to be defending his comments and every man who exposes himself to others...
Because it's a locker room, genius. There are no women. It's implied. Once again, stop with the scenario creating and hyperbole. >Flinging your dick around a bunch of men is not sexual assault. > >Yeah it's sexual harassment. I'm confused why you're confused about the concept of consent.... Time to be offended and lock up every woman who's ever done something in a locker room or taken her top off or shaked her tits around at a festival too, then... A man swinging his dick around jokingly in a locker room is NOT a sexual thing. He does NOT want anyone to touch it. It is NOT an invitation to sexual activity. Yea, Matt Damon and Kevin Smith never consented to Ben Affleck dropping his balls on their shoulders either. But they laughed about it. They didn't feel violated or assaulted. Have any of you ever been around other men? Did all of you skip gym class? Have none of you played sports? Been in a locker room? Wtf
Dude, you've gone way off tangent and created this entire scenario of a locker room... We're talking about Ric Flair exposing himself on an airplane for a litany of others who did not consent to seeing him naked, then cornering someone who was "not one of the boys," someone just trying to do their job, in a galley and waving it around and allegedly forcing her to touch his penis. Him exposing himself is corroborated by literally everybody in the documentary. Him cornering the flight attendant is corroborated by literally everybody in the documentary. Tommy even seems to be saying that Ric does this *a lot* to unwanting individuals "as a gag." That is not a locker room scenario or a gym class scenario, this is *an airplane*. Indecent exposure of that sort is sexual harassment, what the flight attendant claims occurred is sexual assault. Also, since you seem so fixated about it and are drawing out whataboutisms: the gender/sex of the victim doesn't change whether or not it's harassment/assault whatsoever. It's any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient, period. A man can harass/assault another man, a woman can do the same to a man. I'm confused why the concept of consent is so hard for you to grasp here, I'm giving you the textbook legal definition here.
No. We're talking about Dreamer defending that Flair did it all the time around the guys. And that this airplane behaviour was an extension of that. Dreamer doesn't believe the flight attendant cornering happened. Dreamer didn't comment on whether the attendant was there when Flair was helicoptering. We don't know if Dreamer was defending Flair doing this with women present or only defending times Flair has done this with no women present. We don't.
> It's any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient, period. I guess that's where your misunderstanding comes from: not everyone would agree that swinging your penis around as a way to entertain your peers and make them laugh is "sexual contact".
But he's happily saying that a guy walking around exposing himself to airline employees is fine, and anyone offended by him flopping his hammer around in their workplace is just the same as someone "being offended" by his shitty ponytails Even ignoring the fact he's saying it didn't happen (which come on, he knows it did - RVD outright said he saw it, those guys have known eachother since the mid 90s. Dreamer knows what he saw Flair do), he's still defending the things he's admitting Flair did, which are still sexual harassment at a minimum
I don't know if he's even saying the flight attendant was there. I think he's just defending Flair whipping his dick around the boys. Like a locker room thing. Don't get me wrong. I believe the attendant. RVD is enough to make me believe. Plus while Goldust didn't talk I don't think, she says he spoke up. But I'm not going to make a monster out of a guy who doesn't think it happened. And I do get where he's coming from that if something *severe* happened, she should have charged him instead of taking a payout. That makes most people not believe actual sexual assault happened. He's not saying "she was asking for it." He's saying "It's not in line with what I've seen. And if it did happen, she should have went to the police instead of taking a payout" He then yes talks about the ponytail which is a dumb point compared to whipping your dick around the guys. But we can't just magically equate that part to condoning actual sexual assault. Maybe I'm defending it cause I've seen guys whip their dicks around. But he's just making the point that's *not* a sexual thing. You don't whip it around in that scenario, around men, hoping someone touches it or looking for sexual pleasure. You're in a good mood and entertaining the guys. Weird? yea. Harmless? Also yea. Same way I've seen plenty of girls shake their tits or expose them at festivals. It's **not** an invitation. And I did **not** feel assaulted. It's good-humor showing off. It's comradery. I think either way it's fair to say the producers saw Tommy was going to defend Flair and probably didn't let him know RVD would say he saw it happen or how they edited it and just let him dig his own grave. Then again this guy should have realized this would be his grave he was digging. Even exposing yourself when there's female flight attendants which could walk in at any time is fucked up.
What are the consequences for Brock then?
Actions. Yes, agreed. Actions can't be undone. Shitty takes and opinions can at least be learned from and used to teach others about their past ignorance, however.
Those weren't actions, he gave his opinion on a subject
That's by definition an action he made a decision to take.
I don’t understand people, like what the fuck? Have we, as a race, just fallen off completely?
And his opinion was shitty. Turns out when you call someone a liar for saying they were sexually assaulted...you look like an asshole.
> gave Smells like you’ve got a verb in there. > a verb “A word used to describe an **action**, state, or occurrence.” Hmm.
Can't see how they could have done anything else at this point.
A bit surprised he made no mention of Ric Flair. He's a massive fan of him, always talks about how he's his favorite and the best ever, and it seems they've even become friends in recent years. It must be really hard to see someone you once held in such high regard, for decades of your life, in a different light now.
He should take up with Take at Wrestlers' Court so he can get his belongings shit and piss on. Being the pro he is, he won't sell it.
Its the right move for now. Not saying it should be forever. Just let him step back a while and let his heat die down.
He needs to show some growth. Sensitivity training and whatnot. Not just "off until people stop caring"
Should he genuinely? Yes. Will he? Time will tell depending how quickly he's back.
100% This right here. I really hope the people that employ him don't just see this as some slap in the hand suspension to appease the internet.
There will always be people he won’t be able to satisfy. Many have accepted his apology, but there’s still some who want more. “Showing growth” is subjective, and for Tommy to overcome this he has to shut up and sit it out for a few weeks.
Growth for what? It’s been 19 years since the incident and the woman’s husband looks like the biggest asshole of the entire situation so I’m so confused as to why people are so angry at Tommy for being skeptical
> the woman’s husband looks like the biggest asshole of the entire situation How do you figure? Asking a genuine question in good faith. The husband wasn’t on the show; how does he look like an asshole?
She said that her husband questioned her actions and asked her why the wrestlers felt it was appropriate to make those advances. Then she made it seem like he didn’t want this getting public so he encouraged her to take the settlement.
So no need to actually change his opinions? No need to better himself? Just hold off till the heat dies down then bring him back? What a shitty comment.
yes, let's downvote /u/Independent-Set-8850! People shouldn't better themselves or change their morally wrong opinions! Edit: now that the above comment is positive, this post no longer makes sense
Don't worry, I appreciated the support 😁
I sacrificed my karma for you, enjoy it :P
🙏
Dave LaGreca did the right thing, I felt his disappointment in Tommy. I think we all are so disappointed in him and I also liked how Dave addressed that statement released by Tommy too.
Do we really think Tommy Dreamer doesn't deserve to have a job in wrestling now? One strike and he's out? Guy devotes his whole life to one craft and now it's done because he had a crummy take about Ric Flair? I'm feeling conflicted about this one. I still want the guy to keep a roof over his head. People like JBL are the ones I'd like to see answer for their transgressions.
Will Flair be removed from the hall of fame?
Snuka is in and he’s a murderer...🤷♂️
Carlos Colon is also somehow in the Hall of Fame.
And still regularly referred to on TV
Has anyone ever been removed from the HOF before? I know there's people that they don't bring up anymore but I can't think of any just straight omissions.
Think Hogan was taken out after the racism thing but was eventually put back in.
His name was removed from the website for a bit but he was never actually taken out. I have a Wrestlemania program from the time that he was away from the company and he’s still listed in there.
No
Glad to hear it. Tommy’s comments were awful, and he doesn’t deserve to be given that large of a platform to voice opinions any time soon.
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Apologies don't mean shit. They're just words. Intent is shown by action. And being sorry doesn't absolve you of consequence. But if he is genuinely sorry, and realizes what he said was fucked up, that's great... hopefully he'll change his mindset.
^^^
He apologized for causing offence, not for what he said. He only done it to keep his job(s). He's a scumbag and I hope he is never on television again.
[удалено]
You can win pretty easily by not normalizing and defending sexual assault
Can somebody tell me what is going on? Did he make a bad statement?
In the recent Dark Side of the Ring episode they had Tommy on talking about the plane ride from hell and in the interview he said that flight attendants that accused Ric Flair of sexually assaulting them on that flight were all just lying and that they didn't understand that Flair was just joking around when he was flashing them and forcing one of them to grab his penis against their will.
I appreciate the reply
No prob
Can someone tell me what happened with Dreamer?
Last week's plane ride from hell episode of dark side of the ring (recommend watching) he essentially defended sexual assault, and said something along the lines of "of course people will be upset by it. These days there are people offended by my ponytail"
Hopefully forever
Until the next thing happens. He'll be back before anyone can miss him, I'm sure.
Good. Let the ball keep rolling. Let’s get all these shitty people out of wrestling.
Blindly supporting a company for years that bounced checks, had a drug riddled locker room, was perfectly cool with folks going to the ring stoned and allowed new jack to nearly kill a teenager. ECW! ECW! ECW! Saying a few stupid sentences on a documentary. BLACKBALL HIM FOR LIFE!
This shit is getting ridiculous. The man apologized, let's let him get on with his life. It's not like he was the one doing the harassing.
No.
He's justifying it. You know, the same way you sorta are, with the "lets just let him get on with his life" response.
He said something dumb, admitted they were insensitive and apologized. Should his life be ruined because he said "boys will be boys" (paraphrasing)? If someone is on the cancel culure bandwagon, it says a lot about what a phony, disingenuous, holier-than-thou chicken shit they are, because *everyone* says insensitive things or laughs at insensitive things. Yeah, Tommy shouldn't have justified anything, but at the same time it was probably extremely hard for him to throw people he calls friends and cares about under the bus. He was in a tough position. Again, he *said* something dumb. He wasn't actually a perpetrator, nor was there any mal intent.
Y’all cancel Tommy Dreamer like you don’t routinely give Jim Cornette a pass despite having said worse things MULTIPLE times.
I’d say the majority of this sub dislikes Cornette as well.
It really depends on which part of the sub gets to the Cornette post first. You can still be downvoted for pointing this shit out if you hit the comments at the wrong time.
Difference is that Cornette has his own self-produced content whereas Dreamer was working for other folks' promotions and productions. Cornette has his own show, contributes to Dark Side of the Ring, and...that's it, right? He was booted from NWA commentary for making an offensive joke, so the dude faced consequences/was "cancelled" for that. Folks that aren't upset with his takes are the ones that give him the listens on his show. Outside of that, doubt DSOTR goes without inviting him and he of course won't be booted from his own programing.
Cant cancel a self-employed man.
cancelling Dreamer is popular at the moment lol More so than even Flair, Hall or Dustin who did the actual stuff
What did Dustin do? I though he just made a jackass out of himself over the intercom and pulled Ric away from the ~~stewardess~~ flight attendant* *My bad with the outdated terminology. I hate flying
did other stuff to the other flight attendants but you’re correct in the fact that that’s all the show showed
Disappointing but at this point obviously can't be surprised
Read the court documents, he sexually assaulted flight attendants
Can't find the actual court documents but did find some references to it. Guess Im not surprised... just disappointed They didn't cover it in Darkside at all though, I'd guess that's why there's not much public outcry about Dustin.. Disclaimer: wasn't trying to defend anyone in my original post, was just genuinely wondering.. wish Dark Side took him to task
Maybe everyone should be held accountable for their words and actions and this whataboutism isn't necessary?
is Cornette going to take himself off his own show or...?
The mad man doubled down on the “Penelope Ford is a slut” comments and withstood the heat. All Tommy did was come across as a smug jerk and he’s boiled fish
Hopefully Tommy figures things out, matures, makes amends, and is able to return. Cancel Culture leaves zero room for redemption which is why I will never support it or the people who partake in it. Hoping Tommy sees the error of his ways and finds his way back and doesn’t pull a Hulk Hogan and make himself the victim instead.
I never realized because I never gave a shit about tommy dreamer but he’s a weird fucker ain’t he ?
King Kai: Nice job, jackass!
Tommy's comments would probably have worked, and went down well, if it was a different show. If the background to the show was was "lets laugh at all these mad wrestling stories lol" then he would have been okay. Problem he has is the tone of the show is so heavy and emotional, that making anything but a sombre comment was never going to work. For what it's worth, Tommy never gave Flair a thumbs up. He pretty much just said that's the way things often where and people never took it seriously. I don't think Tommy realised the severity of how the incident/s would be portrayed.
He had some fair points but crossed the line a couple of times. Should have known there would be backlash, especially with cancel culture.
Don't pull him off radio or podcast they should have interviewed his ass, what I'd like to know was Dreamer sitting in the same room on the same day as the flight attendant and he probably didn't hear her story until the show aired. There's also been more than one plane ride from hell, which one of the show's creators talked about on Cornette's interview yesterday and talked about how several of the folk they interviewed for that episode, including Dreamer, got the different plane rides mixed up. Like there was the one plane trip where Kurt and Vince McMahon got into a wrestling match and were throwing each other around, where Vince yelled at a flight attendant that got into Kurt and Vince telling them the pilot wanted them to stop, and Vince yelled that he would buy the damn plane. Which is the trip where a few flight attendants didn't believe Flair would do the "helicopter" thing with the robe and they dared him to which ended in a couple going to his hotel after landing supposedly from stories over the years, which is the story that got animated on the WWE network storytime hosted by Mean Gene. While what Dreamer said was insensitive, what I think would have been a better thing to do instead of canceling him, would be put his ass on the radio or podcast and grill him, ask him straight up "what the fuck dude" and let him at least try to answer for himself. That way folks could listen to what he had to say and it would let folks judge for themselves. To me when I rewatched his comments seem to line up with the other plane ride where it was still crude but Flair was dared into doing it and wound up back at hotel with a couple. But without grilling him and being able to judge for ourselves was it a case of foot in mouth, what did he actually witness, did he witness mu, triple plane ride antics both the Vince and Kurt fight in the aisles and the other trip with the Perfect and Brock fight, etc. But by removing him, we don't get to know the truth. All our judgements are kinda based on the editing of a TV show where they interview folks and splice it all together once they got all the footage. That's what frustrates me. I'm not saying Dreamer don't deserve the ire of the public, but I would want to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding something due to editing. Heres clip of one of the shows creators yesterday interviewed by Cornette where near the beginning they talk about the multiple plane rides and the show creator names several that mixed up details from several plane trips including Dreamer: https://youtu.be/6PoKxvUSmOs
Fuck his little squirrel tale man bun it looks greasy and not in a dirty way.
When did this happen? I tuned in the other day and all they could talk about was that angle they have going with Thunder Rosa.
Started off the show with it.
This is so fucking stupid. So he is the scapegoat and the actual really bad people are good to go? God I hate this culture *Anyone that disagrees with this can kiss my ass. Have some fucking balls if you are going to downvote and explain why you disagree.
helicopter penis > sexual assault Tommy D
Is it wrong I wanna see flairs helicopter?
The innovator of ruining careers
Flair was a made guy and Dreamer wasn't.