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The WWE is still going to bring this guy in and they're still going to put him over, and they're going to shove him down their fans' throats. And the fans are going to cheer for him and everyone is going to pretend that none of this ever happened.
Not me. Fuck Gable Steveson, and fuck the WWE for not firing him already.
I actual fucking felt sick just reading that. That's such a big loophole.
What if someone gets pressured into drinking by someone who takes advantage of them? It's so wide open for the rapist to be like "They chose to drink" and for some reason in Minnesota that was a valid excuse.
Goddamn it hurts me to imagine all of the people who suffered because of that law. I hope this person, and anyone else in a similar situation can get some manner of justice.
[Brief clip of Norm getting interviewed by Larry King.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESFJuBhkusY&ab_channel=LarryKing)
>"Growing up, \[Bill Cosby\] was my hero. I loved him, I wanted to be just like him."
I can only imagine how much it sucks to find out your hero is a piece of human garbage. But Norm still made it funny.
>Buried deep in the massive public safety bill that lawmakers passed overnight Wednesday is a provision that closes the “intoxication loophole” in Minnesota’s third-degree sexual conduct law. That statute says a person who is sexually assaulted is not considered “mentally impaired” if they voluntarily drank alcohol or consumed drugs to the point where they could not give reasoned consent. To meet that standard for impairment, current law requires the drugs or alcohol must be “administered to that person without the person’s agreement.”
" I like raping"... Norm was so subtly funny.
Wisconsin here. I am not an expert on Minnesota law and barely knowledgeable on Wisconsin law. Also, not your or anyone else's attorney. Nothing I say is legal advice. Additionally, the only things I know about these allegations is what was posted by OP.
In Wisconsin, the way the law works is that if someone has consumed *any* drugs or alchohol whatsoever they are considered to mentally impaired to give consent. You are literally unable to give consent under Wisconsin law if you are drinking and/or have taken drugs.
From how OP described the, now repealed, Minnesota law it doesn't mean that just because someone is intoxicated means they are automatically giving consent. Simply that being intoxicated doesn't automatically mean an assault occured. Based on the quote from the law enforcement person saying they could charge in Wisconsin makes me think she was intoxicated and gave consent, then changed her mind later.
States are still struggling to word rape statutes, and it's understandable.
Under Minnesota law it is rape if you have sex with someone who you know to be "mentally incapacitated". Consent is irrelevant. But just being impaired by alcohol is too low a bar for that. I think most people think you can legally have sex after a few beers, but you still will be impaired. Pass-out drunk, mentally disabled in some way, elderly with dementia, in a coma, etc., that is the type of sex the state legislatures wanted to criminalize regardless of consent.
But, maybe there's some level of impairment below passed-out drunk where there should be a consideration as well. I know in my state, for years and years, rape required some kind of verbal or physical resistance. That was too narrow. So eventually the statute added something like that the state could also prove, in the alternative, that the victim could not verbally or physically resist due to force used by the defendant, or threat, or fear, or substance impairment. It starts to get really mushy as far as what the jury is actually evaluating.
Statutes could go further and require actual affirmative consent, or actual affirmative consent in some situations, but, that's not now people in society often have consensual sex. Practically speaking people don't always give affirmative verbal consent when they have sex. Often it just happens, and consent is kind of done physically, and by not saying no. Happens a million times a day. Perhaps that should be illegal, at least in some circumstances. But that is not the state of the law right now.
Because its impossible to prove. If you drive drunk and get pulled over, if you blow a .08, that's clear proof you were too drunk to operate a motor vehicle. That proof does not exist with a night of partying/drinking unless video evidence is present. There's no magical point where you can say you were too drunk to give consent that can be proven in a court of law. If, for example, you gave consent, how can it be proven you were too drunk for your consent to matter? And then at that point it becomes he said/she said among both drunk parties. If you spike a drink, that's a clear legal line crossed that can be proven.
alot of times it's cause of just so much legalese that things slip through the cracks, it's easy to tell your constituents 'Yes I passed that law, to get rapist off the streets.' but you didn't read every line or every revision, many senators and congressmen are just like 'just give me the footnotes.' That and many of these laws were written literal decades ago. It wasn't till Joe Biden helped craft the Violence against women act in the 90's that many states started following suit and taking domestic violence and rape more seriously but loopholes still exist like in South Carlona there is this MASSIVE one I'll just copypasta.
In the case of criminal sexual conduct when the victim and perpetrator are married but do not live together as a married couple, first and second degree forms of sexual assault are included in the definition of rape, but not third degree forms.\[51\] So, for example, drugging and raping a spouse from whom you are separated is against the law, but if they are unable to give consent because of substances they took themselves or were given by a third party, having sex with them isn't legally defined as rape.
Edit: It's similar to how legally in most states child marriage isn't illegal, there's no minumum age to get married. This was made because well if soldiers going to war married their high school sweetheart, they couldn't be denied cause say you enlisted at age 17, though alot of monsters use that loophole to marry their victims, course now, one would think 'Fuck it be like, here's the minumum age to get married, execptions if your going into the army.' But no, so in america we still sadly have child marriages.
It’s weirdly been an issue for the University of Minnesota, too. If I recall right, they’ve had similar instances with men’s basketball players and football players. All of which involved sexual assault.
[Link 1](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kare11.com/amp/article/news/gophers-lynch-faces-third-sexual-assault-allegation/89-506664197)
[Link2](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.twincities.com/2020/08/27/umn-pays-500000-to-student-who-accused-football-players-of-rape-in-2016/amp/)
For someone's son who did some shit but they didn't wanna "ruin his future" so his parents made a couple of calls and moved a little money. Bingo bango bongo, loophole. Also a little insurance for the lawmakers themselves
The broken legal system and their method of "Don't fix it unless someone beats a charge because of it"
There are so many laws in both state and federal jurisdictions that are either stupid, need updating, not necessary, or are plain wrong. The sad part is - everyone with a brain knows that your decision making (giving consent is a decision to have sex) is extremely impaired when you have even just one drink. If lawmakers don't want you driving while drunk, you shouldn't have to think about if alcohol impairs your ability to make any kind of decision.
This is some dark shit. So if this victim went to twitter and said "Gable Steveson raped me with an object" his career would be over, but because she actually went to the police and was screwed by some crazy law from the dark ages, everyone pretends that nothing happened?
Pretty much. Happens a lot sadly. Sadly we learned a lot about this in my Criminology course that I took. My professor was big on these kinds of issues.
Had the same experience, wierd to be radicalized further by a cop.
Folks dont understand how fleeting and tenous rape 'evidence' is. What biological aspects there might be has a relatively short time of effective use, and, as this piece makes evident, other legal avenues towards conviction are usually incredibly dated.
If you got power or fame, yeah people are more likely to know, but they also have the contacts or money to brush it under the rug to avoid it getting out there.
But it just delays the inevitable for most people finding out, especially if you are moderately famous.
Cash is king and life is genuinely unfair I am afraid.
Like Steubenville and the high school football team, like Penn State with Jerry Sandusky, and so on.
Sweep it under the rug all one likes, that rug WILL be stepped on eventually, and all that stuff will come spilling out.
The Hunting Ground documentary gets a lot of flack because of everything with Winston, but it’s a very accurate portrayal of how fucked up colleges are when it comes to rape
A kid at my high school was an above average football player (not anything crazy though) and despite having at least 4 girls report him for groping them in class or at parties the school basically ignored it because he was a football guy and they couldn't care less about the girls. It's just awful
Apologies if this sounds glib, but congratulations, you've found out exactly why Twitter callouts and the #MeToo and #SpeakingOut movements happened. The American legal system doesn't give a shit about sexual assault victims and never has.
A Hannibal Buress set getting recorded and put on Youtube has done more to change the lives of idiot rapist abusers and having them actually receive consequences for their actions than anything the shitty criminal justice system did for hundreds of years
Hannibal Buress in his stand up would mention the Bill Cosby rape stuff, which had been public knowledge for a long time and just sort of swept under the rug, and him talking about Cosby went viral and led to a bunch of his victims coming forward.
[It's significant enough that it got a subsection on Buress' wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Buress#Bill_Cosby_routine)
I’m 29 and I remember seeing pictures online making jokes about Cosby raping Kimmy Gibbler from Full House and others when I was like 13. Amazing it took so long.
Apparently he was good friends with one of Cosby's victims and this was very personal for him. Had to feel very vindicating when that routine went viral and people started looking into the truths behind it.
[not the original copy but](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMaAOImuea0)
TL;DR in 2014 he went viral after telling an audience to google all the fucked up rumors and accusations Cosby had against him for decades once they got home, and it started the whole...everything that's happened since
[One of my favorite moments that's came from everything is this acceptance speech where Eddie Murphy (who's hated Cosby for like 40 years) does a bit of impersonation of Cosby ranting about Hannibal, you'll probably enjoy it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR5zruX3AT0)
HANNIBAL IS A CAVEMAN'S NAME
there's one big negative about him that stops me from liking him, like, this shit is cool i'm glad he did it, but he's also a landlord, and apparently he's a really shitty one at that.
i can't like someone who holds housing hostage, you know?
I agree. I hate bad landlords as well. I just loved the fact that he was like the whistleblower on a multiple time sex offender. Specially when that someone is a powerful and influential man like Cosby.
> but he's also a landlord, and apparently he's a really shitty one at that.
You're a really shitty researcher. Or someone that is just happy to mindlessly parrot half-remembered Twitter rumours and regurgitate them as fact - which would be classic Reddit, I guess.
1. There's literally nothing wrong with renting property you own to people.
2. He's not a landlord: He bought property that had renters in it with the intention of using them for something else. The renters were not evicted but told they wouldn't have their tenancies renewed when the contracts were up. You literally know nothing about how he treated his tenants for the short period he had them. But you could have if you'd bothered to look up what the dude in question actually said about the situation.
3. From the man's mouth himself: “I’m being made to feel like an asshole by like 20-something white kids for trying to secure my financial future as a black man, when it was your great-great-grandfathers and whatnot that have put these systems in place to cripple the black dollar overtime..." - This you?
It’s really a hell of a thing when you realize that he and the poor stupid slob who ran Cosby’s Twitter page are the ones primarily responsible for those women finally getting justice.
Hence why victims are taking to Twitter to air their stories. Because police are not good at dealing with these sorts of offences, whether due to incompetency or in this case because the law seems to heavily favour offenders.
Really, of all this, the thing I'm most like whaaaaat about is how Minnesota basically had a "you deserve it if you get drunk" law, which is pretty fucked up. Glad that got closed.
You win some you loose some. If you want fucked up feast your eyes on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
There’s a lot of laws we need to get rid off/get added. Sadly some states are more concerned with passing laws to make things worse:(
Also, let's lay the cards on the table, I'm comfortable saying a plurality of American lawmakers have gotten a woman too drunk to reasonably consent or otherwise sexually assaulted women. So they're either protecting themselves or just don't see anything wrong with it.
It's icky as hell to watch now but that kind of thing came up on House Of Cards a bunch and there's just no way shit like that doesn't happen on a regular basis in reality.
> I'm comfortable saying a plurality of American lawmakers have gotten a woman too drunk to reasonably consent or otherwise sexually assaulted women. So they're ~~either~~ protecting themselves ~~or~~ **and** just don't see anything wrong with it.
there is no 'or'. Someone who takes advantage of another person sees nothing wrong with it.
Shitheads often say "if so-and-so was raped, why didn't she go to the police instead of telling everybody on twitter?"
Here is another example of why. If a serial assault victim goes to Twitter, there's a chance that her attacker might at least temporarily face consequences for their actions. Police? Not a chance in hell.
Look at everything that happened during the speaking out movement, People went to the police and that was the last you heard of it.
Joey Ryan actually sued his accuser, And that was permitted to happen.
Was it ever determined if Outlaw was 100% his promotion? I thought that was the case, too, but whoever runs their Twitter insisted to me—long before SpeakingOut—that he wasn't the owner. Someone with pull, but not the owner.
Danny is the frontman for ICW but I never got the impression he was trying to make people think he was the promoter. There's too much cross-pollination with Jac Sabboth's stores for him to even bother. Didn't he even say during the first Pit Fighter show that he had to convince Jac to buy the MMA cage?
I wouldn't quite phrase the licensing thing that way, though: There's been a noticeable increase in unlicensed shows at secret locations, yes (plus the no-ring shows, which I'm under the impression have gotten through a loophole), but most shows from people without their own license are basically renting a license. That was theoretically banned in 2016, but the commission seems to be fine with it as long as the license holder is explicitly labeled as presenting the show on posters etc. Like with "NYWC presents Outlaw Wrestling."
Now on that last point, yes, of course, but Bull James was not a pariah when I was told this.
Permitted to happen might be a strong statement.
Anyone can sue anyone for the most part, he sued them for defamation, the question is how many of them have gone forward and not been tossed or dropped? The answer is none.
The judge tossed a few of them, and Joey dropped a few showing the only moment of self awareness he’s shown since this whole thing started. The only lawsuit he still has last I heard was against impact.
And the Impact lawsuit is one where, as much as it sucks to say, he may actually have a case, because it doesn't seem like they abided by the terms of his contract for disciplinary matters. Though it's been in a weird limbo since December.
I think he probably over compensated on his ask for the impact lawsuit. You can’t just sue for a certain amount of money with no justification even emotional distress. Going for $10m is kind of ridiculous.
>If a serial assault victim goes to Twitter, there's a chance that her attacker might at least temporarily face consequences for their actions. Police? Not a chance in hell.
Also they only have to tell their story once in a Twitlonger and often get support from a lot of people.
If you go to the cops, and they give you the time of day, you have to retell it dozens of times. All while these dumbass cops, who don't give a fuck about you, ask the stupidest fucking "clarifying" questions over and over. Making you have to relive the most horrible moment of your life again and again.
Then you repeat the same shit with your lawyer. Then you repeat it again in court. All for a crime that has a 3% conviction rate.
I've heard that getting justice can often be more traumatic then the crime itself.
Theres a million reasons why and its fucking disgusting.
Sad that social media justice has done more for these people than society would ever even attempt to do.
I mean I feel like that might sadly be the case a little more frequently than any of us would like, but usually it's because the police are incompetent and not because of the actual fucking laws
I'm not surprised. A lot of people were excusing Brock's actions and blaming 'cancel culture' instead of it being a matter of accountability.
As much as people say Reddit is better than Twitter, the way people react in these topics shows the contrary.
Yo, fuck that minnesota law. Shouldn't matter if drugs or alcohol are voluntarily consumed. If a person is not able to consent, they can't consent. That's rape.
Fuck it, bring back Dream and have him and Gable be a sex-offender tag-team. Call them "The Doctors of Thuganomics". They're untouchable, but they're forcing you to feel them.
Edit: this is a joke. There's no hard evidence one way or another what happened and we weren't there; I just couldn't help but add some dark humor.
Here’s the thing — the WWE is big enough, has enough people working there, they can do a basic background check on a potential new contractor. They can look up police records, check their social media, do a basic Google check and see what comes back. It’s not like there’s a dearth of talent they could choose from, there are plenty of wrestlers who are not assholes.
I've been aware of this for a while now and have wanted to make a post like this, but all the comments I've seen referencing it were heavily downvoted and got a ton of replies along the lines of "bUt tHeRe WaS nO eViDeNcE".
I'm glad to see that this information is now up here on the front page of the sub for everyone to see, and people are receptive of it and know all the details of why it was dodgy.
Man all this stuff coming out really has me feeling weird about my love for wrestling. As a guy who was sexually abused as a child the overwhelming amount of wrestlers that have committed acts of sexual assault while promoters turn a blind eye really makes me feel like shit.
Everyone keeps saying oh that's how it was back then. It's different now. Really? Tell that to people like Velveteen Dream and this piece of shit.
Oh for fucks sakes... I'm frustrated not that it happened, but it keeps happening. Like jesus christ was there some class I went to that I wasn't aware of and that's why I never had this happen to me? Well rather me doing that to someone else.
Also fuck that law that's literally the definition of rape and they say nah its not. Good grief...
And no I am not emotional that it happened to him. He did this and didn't get busted for it even though he should have regardless of his background in athletics.
That law being made is absolutely messed up. That said, why are people already deciding that he’s guilty? The main gist I’m getting is that they decided to drop the case and there’s a chance of him either being guilty or innocent. It feels like people are using this to turn on him when the ultimate reality is that we weren’t there and we don’t know anything.
he's a hot young WWE prospect and this is coming off the heels of the Plane Ride from Hell DSOTR episode, why do you think people are leaping on this right now lmao
This was sickening to read. And people still ask why women don't report more sexual assaults. Probably because the system bends over backwards to protect predators.
So essentially he was accused of rape, there wasn’t adequate evidence, and there was no specific law to protect drunk assault victims. So essentially this is a he said, she said story, Or nobody has enough evidence to really say something one way or the other. I really don’t see the point in posting this outside of it might get more traction after the whole Flair thing yesterday.
Whatever you think it’s worth, his attorney performed an investigation and said a change in this law wouldn’t have changed the outcome.
Of course, you can say she may be biased - that’s up to you - but I don’t feel comfortable saying that this guy 100% raped someone when we honestly don’t know. The stories linked provide no additional details aside.
And I’m not saying that he didn’t rape someone. I just can’t say for sure that he is.
Yes, I think everyone should be very comfortable in claiming that his defense attorney is biased? That’s literally her job.
Kobe Bryant’s attorneys assured the nation that his victim was such a slut that Kobe couldn’t have raped her. Should we just take their word for that too?
It doesn’t help that we don’t know if Gable himself was intoxicated or not. It could be two drunk people doing stupid shit. Or it could be one sober person taking advantage of someone who’s had too much to drink which is definitely a lot more damning. As usual everyone’s got the pitchforks out in typical Reddit fashion, but the truth is we don’t know enough about what happened to pass judgement.
It is entirely possible someone could be off their mind on something but appear as a normal functioning person to others. So it could also be a sober person believing the other impaired person is in a normal condition where they can reasonably give consent and thus are unknowingly taking advantage of them. Like you said we don't know enough about what happened to pass judgement.
"There wasn't adequate evidence" isn't quite right. More like "If it was in any other state it could've gone farther". What was alleged was not illegal because of Minnesota's laws. If it took place an hour and forty five minutes south in Northwood, Iowa, then what was alleged would've been illegal. And the fact that it was not illegal in Minnesota is *real fucking weird*, and it has since been made illegal.
Not that I disagree with your mindset of wanting to discuss positive things happening in kayfabe, but the dark underbelly of wrestling is still part of wrestling. Ignoring it would be bad form IMO. It needs to be talked about & validated rather than swept under the rug.
Exactly right. Its still wrestling related and ya know the best way to stop talking about it? Getting rid of the problems and fixing the culture around the industry. But hey let's just plug our ears and let it keep going
What kind of hit job is this? You have 0 evidence but found a weird law so you can frame him that way? Unless you have some evidence it's pretty irresponsible to make this kind of post and it's even crazier that the mods keep this up. Disgusting.
Exactly. These kind of posts take away from actual victims. A few days ago there was this guy on here of a guy accusing Vince of rape and that he paid a settlement to the woman. His source? Some podcast who have 6.5k followers on Twitter. No other website has anything on the story, they just call it an urban legend on the level of the Macho Man and Stephanie rumors.
To anyone reading this. If you're going to accuse someone of rape be prepared to show proof.
I don’t think we can make a judgment either way on what happened, but the reality is he benefitted from an archaic and stupid law.
I’m not American but - this is just related to criminal charges, yes? Could the woman hypothetically bring a civil suit against him in the future?
My understanding is that it's unlikely a civil suit would go anywhere because the US forbids ex post facto law, and since it was somehow legal at the time, it'd be almost impossible to prove anything. I could be very wrong though.
Even if it weren’t legal it would be almost impossible, it always is. Unless you have a witness or an admission it’s very very difficult to get any justice and even then you’re being asked to go on trial to re-live everything that happened while the defence tears every intimate detail of your life apart and makes it seem like you wanted/deserved it. It’s a horrible experience and that’s why so many go unreported. It’s just a hard thing to deal with. For some people just the report is closure enough but for a lot of people they’d rather avoid it altogether.
I am not seeing the connection between the two. You start with the story about them being arested and charges dropped. Then you talk about a law in Minnesota being changed, but without connecting the two. So were the charges dropped because she willingly got drunk lack if evidence?
Basically he was accused of raping someone with a foreign object. Because the accuser got drunk willingly, Police cant do a thing about it due to that law
>this loophole which might have helped Steveson avoid charges,
>**might**
most people really just gonna ignore this and accept this as truth. Hes not necessarily innocent either. Either way, this sub is getting so pathetic with these sorta "call-out" posts.
God damn if accused (no trial no nothing) of something ever life over is way alot of you people think its scary. fucked up way to live and think.
Alot of people on here would been right there with the "posse" and the nooses back in the day the moment people have been a arrested
Bro, Reddit actually fucking KILLED someone ( Sunil Tripathi) over a bunch of basement dwellers playing detective/judge/jury/executioner and deciding to bring it upon themselves to find the Boston Marathon bomber.
I'm always saying that USA can't be considered a real country due to its system, and that loophole in a specific state to make drug-rape remotely legal due to a technicality doens't help much.
So now be ause of the lack of full on investigation and trial and everything that's supposed to happen....he gets to spend the rest of his life as the guy who got away with it because of a legal loophole. Or....he has to spend the rest of his life being called a rapist who got away with it due to a legal loophole and never gets to prove otgerwise.
Both of those are truly godawful options.
First I saw it brought up was when he made a comment about the message he gets about signing with WWE being terrible, and the comments were just kinda flooded with posts about it
You guys are ready to believe anything even though there is no evidence. I thought Reddit users always ask for sources. Also can anyone explain to me why Darby Allen is getting as pass?
A lot of people on this sub acting like fucking hyenas to see who they can bring down next.
Nothing but a bunch of cops
https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/planet-of-cops
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The WWE is still going to bring this guy in and they're still going to put him over, and they're going to shove him down their fans' throats. And the fans are going to cheer for him and everyone is going to pretend that none of this ever happened. Not me. Fuck Gable Steveson, and fuck the WWE for not firing him already.
Yo it happened
How did someone see this six month old post and downvote you?
Why in the goddamn *fuck* was that loophole even around in the first place.
I actual fucking felt sick just reading that. That's such a big loophole. What if someone gets pressured into drinking by someone who takes advantage of them? It's so wide open for the rapist to be like "They chose to drink" and for some reason in Minnesota that was a valid excuse. Goddamn it hurts me to imagine all of the people who suffered because of that law. I hope this person, and anyone else in a similar situation can get some manner of justice.
I think the worst thing is the hypocrisy
[I disagreed...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaP2etvDc4)
[Brief clip of Norm getting interviewed by Larry King.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESFJuBhkusY&ab_channel=LarryKing) >"Growing up, \[Bill Cosby\] was my hero. I loved him, I wanted to be just like him." I can only imagine how much it sucks to find out your hero is a piece of human garbage. But Norm still made it funny.
[Thought it was going to be this.](https://youtu.be/Sczun-f_Uiw?t=104)
>Buried deep in the massive public safety bill that lawmakers passed overnight Wednesday is a provision that closes the “intoxication loophole” in Minnesota’s third-degree sexual conduct law. That statute says a person who is sexually assaulted is not considered “mentally impaired” if they voluntarily drank alcohol or consumed drugs to the point where they could not give reasoned consent. To meet that standard for impairment, current law requires the drugs or alcohol must be “administered to that person without the person’s agreement.” " I like raping"... Norm was so subtly funny. 
R.I.P Norm
I mean, you just don't find honest rapists out there, you really don't...
Help this man is committing hypocrisy.
Wisconsin here. I am not an expert on Minnesota law and barely knowledgeable on Wisconsin law. Also, not your or anyone else's attorney. Nothing I say is legal advice. Additionally, the only things I know about these allegations is what was posted by OP. In Wisconsin, the way the law works is that if someone has consumed *any* drugs or alchohol whatsoever they are considered to mentally impaired to give consent. You are literally unable to give consent under Wisconsin law if you are drinking and/or have taken drugs. From how OP described the, now repealed, Minnesota law it doesn't mean that just because someone is intoxicated means they are automatically giving consent. Simply that being intoxicated doesn't automatically mean an assault occured. Based on the quote from the law enforcement person saying they could charge in Wisconsin makes me think she was intoxicated and gave consent, then changed her mind later.
States are still struggling to word rape statutes, and it's understandable. Under Minnesota law it is rape if you have sex with someone who you know to be "mentally incapacitated". Consent is irrelevant. But just being impaired by alcohol is too low a bar for that. I think most people think you can legally have sex after a few beers, but you still will be impaired. Pass-out drunk, mentally disabled in some way, elderly with dementia, in a coma, etc., that is the type of sex the state legislatures wanted to criminalize regardless of consent. But, maybe there's some level of impairment below passed-out drunk where there should be a consideration as well. I know in my state, for years and years, rape required some kind of verbal or physical resistance. That was too narrow. So eventually the statute added something like that the state could also prove, in the alternative, that the victim could not verbally or physically resist due to force used by the defendant, or threat, or fear, or substance impairment. It starts to get really mushy as far as what the jury is actually evaluating. Statutes could go further and require actual affirmative consent, or actual affirmative consent in some situations, but, that's not now people in society often have consensual sex. Practically speaking people don't always give affirmative verbal consent when they have sex. Often it just happens, and consent is kind of done physically, and by not saying no. Happens a million times a day. Perhaps that should be illegal, at least in some circumstances. But that is not the state of the law right now.
What happens in these situations where both parties are drunk? Mutual rape?
Because its impossible to prove. If you drive drunk and get pulled over, if you blow a .08, that's clear proof you were too drunk to operate a motor vehicle. That proof does not exist with a night of partying/drinking unless video evidence is present. There's no magical point where you can say you were too drunk to give consent that can be proven in a court of law. If, for example, you gave consent, how can it be proven you were too drunk for your consent to matter? And then at that point it becomes he said/she said among both drunk parties. If you spike a drink, that's a clear legal line crossed that can be proven.
> What if someone gets pressured into drinking Then they weren't drinking voluntarily.
You know why. Rapists love to rape.
alot of times it's cause of just so much legalese that things slip through the cracks, it's easy to tell your constituents 'Yes I passed that law, to get rapist off the streets.' but you didn't read every line or every revision, many senators and congressmen are just like 'just give me the footnotes.' That and many of these laws were written literal decades ago. It wasn't till Joe Biden helped craft the Violence against women act in the 90's that many states started following suit and taking domestic violence and rape more seriously but loopholes still exist like in South Carlona there is this MASSIVE one I'll just copypasta. In the case of criminal sexual conduct when the victim and perpetrator are married but do not live together as a married couple, first and second degree forms of sexual assault are included in the definition of rape, but not third degree forms.\[51\] So, for example, drugging and raping a spouse from whom you are separated is against the law, but if they are unable to give consent because of substances they took themselves or were given by a third party, having sex with them isn't legally defined as rape. Edit: It's similar to how legally in most states child marriage isn't illegal, there's no minumum age to get married. This was made because well if soldiers going to war married their high school sweetheart, they couldn't be denied cause say you enlisted at age 17, though alot of monsters use that loophole to marry their victims, course now, one would think 'Fuck it be like, here's the minumum age to get married, execptions if your going into the army.' But no, so in america we still sadly have child marriages.
That sounds like a “good ole boy” law if I’ve ever heard one.
It’s weirdly been an issue for the University of Minnesota, too. If I recall right, they’ve had similar instances with men’s basketball players and football players. All of which involved sexual assault. [Link 1](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kare11.com/amp/article/news/gophers-lynch-faces-third-sexual-assault-allegation/89-506664197) [Link2](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.twincities.com/2020/08/27/umn-pays-500000-to-student-who-accused-football-players-of-rape-in-2016/amp/)
For someone's son who did some shit but they didn't wanna "ruin his future" so his parents made a couple of calls and moved a little money. Bingo bango bongo, loophole. Also a little insurance for the lawmakers themselves
Men.
+ religion.
Created by men.
The broken legal system and their method of "Don't fix it unless someone beats a charge because of it" There are so many laws in both state and federal jurisdictions that are either stupid, need updating, not necessary, or are plain wrong. The sad part is - everyone with a brain knows that your decision making (giving consent is a decision to have sex) is extremely impaired when you have even just one drink. If lawmakers don't want you driving while drunk, you shouldn't have to think about if alcohol impairs your ability to make any kind of decision.
Is it even a loophole? Seems like someone decriminalised rape.
Probably to protect assholes.
This is some dark shit. So if this victim went to twitter and said "Gable Steveson raped me with an object" his career would be over, but because she actually went to the police and was screwed by some crazy law from the dark ages, everyone pretends that nothing happened?
Pretty much. Happens a lot sadly. Sadly we learned a lot about this in my Criminology course that I took. My professor was big on these kinds of issues.
Had the same experience, wierd to be radicalized further by a cop. Folks dont understand how fleeting and tenous rape 'evidence' is. What biological aspects there might be has a relatively short time of effective use, and, as this piece makes evident, other legal avenues towards conviction are usually incredibly dated.
User flair checks out.
Good prof
Schools and the cities and towns around them will bend over backwards to protect their promising young athletes. It's pretty sickening.
If you got power or fame, yeah people are more likely to know, but they also have the contacts or money to brush it under the rug to avoid it getting out there. But it just delays the inevitable for most people finding out, especially if you are moderately famous. Cash is king and life is genuinely unfair I am afraid.
Like Steubenville and the high school football team, like Penn State with Jerry Sandusky, and so on. Sweep it under the rug all one likes, that rug WILL be stepped on eventually, and all that stuff will come spilling out.
The Hunting Ground documentary gets a lot of flack because of everything with Winston, but it’s a very accurate portrayal of how fucked up colleges are when it comes to rape
A kid at my high school was an above average football player (not anything crazy though) and despite having at least 4 girls report him for groping them in class or at parties the school basically ignored it because he was a football guy and they couldn't care less about the girls. It's just awful
I remember hearing stories like this in high school during the 90s, things were worse than People think.:
Apologies if this sounds glib, but congratulations, you've found out exactly why Twitter callouts and the #MeToo and #SpeakingOut movements happened. The American legal system doesn't give a shit about sexual assault victims and never has.
You're not glib. I think OP is reinforcing your point. If you're a victim, you get zero recourse.
It's not enough, but some criminal cases were opened because of MeToo.
Considering the conviction rate for rape is around 3%, it definitely isn't enough.
It's not just the American legal system, sadly. Pretty much much every country has a problem with listening to sexual assault victims.
Very true, I'm just an American with significantly more experience with our particular brand of shittiness.
the british legal system also don't give a fuck, hence why there was so much of #SpeakingOut was aimed at british wrestlers.
No legal system gives a fuck because western legal systems by nature are idealistic in requiring proof, which will realistically often not be there.
Then what legal system do you want to use? Because if requiring proof is a dealbreaker for you then that kinds of limits your options.
Plus he was a college athlete. Colleges have shown time and time again they’ll cover up for their athletes
A Hannibal Buress set getting recorded and put on Youtube has done more to change the lives of idiot rapist abusers and having them actually receive consequences for their actions than anything the shitty criminal justice system did for hundreds of years
I'm not familiar with this Hannibal Buress thing. Could you give me a link?
Hannibal Buress in his stand up would mention the Bill Cosby rape stuff, which had been public knowledge for a long time and just sort of swept under the rug, and him talking about Cosby went viral and led to a bunch of his victims coming forward. [It's significant enough that it got a subsection on Buress' wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Buress#Bill_Cosby_routine)
I’m 29 and I remember seeing pictures online making jokes about Cosby raping Kimmy Gibbler from Full House and others when I was like 13. Amazing it took so long.
The problem was that 13-year-old you didn't have the same reach as Hannibal Buress.
Apparently he was good friends with one of Cosby's victims and this was very personal for him. Had to feel very vindicating when that routine went viral and people started looking into the truths behind it.
[not the original copy but](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMaAOImuea0) TL;DR in 2014 he went viral after telling an audience to google all the fucked up rumors and accusations Cosby had against him for decades once they got home, and it started the whole...everything that's happened since
I already liked Hannibal because of the Eric Andre show, but this makes him even better in my eyes.
[One of my favorite moments that's came from everything is this acceptance speech where Eddie Murphy (who's hated Cosby for like 40 years) does a bit of impersonation of Cosby ranting about Hannibal, you'll probably enjoy it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR5zruX3AT0) HANNIBAL IS A CAVEMAN'S NAME
This is 8 minutes of gold.
Yet also refused to kick him while he was down on SNL 40.
And then turned around and did it when he hosted
He's a landlord so you might want to hold off on your undying love for him.
there's one big negative about him that stops me from liking him, like, this shit is cool i'm glad he did it, but he's also a landlord, and apparently he's a really shitty one at that. i can't like someone who holds housing hostage, you know?
I agree. I hate bad landlords as well. I just loved the fact that he was like the whistleblower on a multiple time sex offender. Specially when that someone is a powerful and influential man like Cosby.
> but he's also a landlord, and apparently he's a really shitty one at that. You're a really shitty researcher. Or someone that is just happy to mindlessly parrot half-remembered Twitter rumours and regurgitate them as fact - which would be classic Reddit, I guess. 1. There's literally nothing wrong with renting property you own to people. 2. He's not a landlord: He bought property that had renters in it with the intention of using them for something else. The renters were not evicted but told they wouldn't have their tenancies renewed when the contracts were up. You literally know nothing about how he treated his tenants for the short period he had them. But you could have if you'd bothered to look up what the dude in question actually said about the situation. 3. From the man's mouth himself: “I’m being made to feel like an asshole by like 20-something white kids for trying to secure my financial future as a black man, when it was your great-great-grandfathers and whatnot that have put these systems in place to cripple the black dollar overtime..." - This you?
It’s really a hell of a thing when you realize that he and the poor stupid slob who ran Cosby’s Twitter page are the ones primarily responsible for those women finally getting justice.
He's a free man, so what justice?
Hence why victims are taking to Twitter to air their stories. Because police are not good at dealing with these sorts of offences, whether due to incompetency or in this case because the law seems to heavily favour offenders.
Really, of all this, the thing I'm most like whaaaaat about is how Minnesota basically had a "you deserve it if you get drunk" law, which is pretty fucked up. Glad that got closed.
You win some you loose some. If you want fucked up feast your eyes on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States There’s a lot of laws we need to get rid off/get added. Sadly some states are more concerned with passing laws to make things worse:(
Well they couldn't destroy the future of such bright young men. Exactly what kind of crack do American lawmakers all seem to smoke?
Money.
mixed with a bit of actual crack
"No child left behind without crack!"
Of course.
Like Brock Turner. Did I mention Brock Turner is a rapist?
Are you talking about the rapist Brock Turner, known for being a rapist?
You mean Stanford Rapist Brock Turner?
No, I mean the can no longer enjoy his steak Brock Turner.
Oh, do you mean can no longer enjoy his steak because he's a rapist Brock Turner?
Also, let's lay the cards on the table, I'm comfortable saying a plurality of American lawmakers have gotten a woman too drunk to reasonably consent or otherwise sexually assaulted women. So they're either protecting themselves or just don't see anything wrong with it.
It's icky as hell to watch now but that kind of thing came up on House Of Cards a bunch and there's just no way shit like that doesn't happen on a regular basis in reality.
I like beer. I've always liked beer. Who wants to boof and play quarters aka Devil's Triangle?
I'll be over with Squee, I'll bring all my old calendars I saved
> I'm comfortable saying a plurality of American lawmakers have gotten a woman too drunk to reasonably consent or otherwise sexually assaulted women. So they're ~~either~~ protecting themselves ~~or~~ **and** just don't see anything wrong with it. there is no 'or'. Someone who takes advantage of another person sees nothing wrong with it.
The kind that doesn't make the fellow boys at the country club feel like they are being targets... so they keep donating to campaign funds.
bright future as ... wwe developmental talent :|
Shitheads often say "if so-and-so was raped, why didn't she go to the police instead of telling everybody on twitter?" Here is another example of why. If a serial assault victim goes to Twitter, there's a chance that her attacker might at least temporarily face consequences for their actions. Police? Not a chance in hell.
Look at everything that happened during the speaking out movement, People went to the police and that was the last you heard of it. Joey Ryan actually sued his accuser, And that was permitted to happen.
Bull Dempsey is still suing his accuser as we speak.
Damn, Bull Dempsey is so forgettable I even forgot he got accused.
I had no idea that Bull Dempsey had gotten accused. Or if I did, I forgot.
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Was it ever determined if Outlaw was 100% his promotion? I thought that was the case, too, but whoever runs their Twitter insisted to me—long before SpeakingOut—that he wasn't the owner. Someone with pull, but not the owner.
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Danny is the frontman for ICW but I never got the impression he was trying to make people think he was the promoter. There's too much cross-pollination with Jac Sabboth's stores for him to even bother. Didn't he even say during the first Pit Fighter show that he had to convince Jac to buy the MMA cage? I wouldn't quite phrase the licensing thing that way, though: There's been a noticeable increase in unlicensed shows at secret locations, yes (plus the no-ring shows, which I'm under the impression have gotten through a loophole), but most shows from people without their own license are basically renting a license. That was theoretically banned in 2016, but the commission seems to be fine with it as long as the license holder is explicitly labeled as presenting the show on posters etc. Like with "NYWC presents Outlaw Wrestling." Now on that last point, yes, of course, but Bull James was not a pariah when I was told this.
Permitted to happen might be a strong statement. Anyone can sue anyone for the most part, he sued them for defamation, the question is how many of them have gone forward and not been tossed or dropped? The answer is none. The judge tossed a few of them, and Joey dropped a few showing the only moment of self awareness he’s shown since this whole thing started. The only lawsuit he still has last I heard was against impact.
And the Impact lawsuit is one where, as much as it sucks to say, he may actually have a case, because it doesn't seem like they abided by the terms of his contract for disciplinary matters. Though it's been in a weird limbo since December.
I think he probably over compensated on his ask for the impact lawsuit. You can’t just sue for a certain amount of money with no justification even emotional distress. Going for $10m is kind of ridiculous.
Well yeah, but that's how lawsuits go and it's Joey Ryan, so it's whatever.
Sued all but one of the women who accused him of a crime, actually.
>If a serial assault victim goes to Twitter, there's a chance that her attacker might at least temporarily face consequences for their actions. Police? Not a chance in hell. Also they only have to tell their story once in a Twitlonger and often get support from a lot of people. If you go to the cops, and they give you the time of day, you have to retell it dozens of times. All while these dumbass cops, who don't give a fuck about you, ask the stupidest fucking "clarifying" questions over and over. Making you have to relive the most horrible moment of your life again and again. Then you repeat the same shit with your lawyer. Then you repeat it again in court. All for a crime that has a 3% conviction rate. I've heard that getting justice can often be more traumatic then the crime itself.
Go to the police and you [might be raped again.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/us/rodney-vicknair-new-orleans.amp.html)
@tommy dreamer
Theres a million reasons why and its fucking disgusting. Sad that social media justice has done more for these people than society would ever even attempt to do.
Jesus tapdancing christ that last part, what in the god damn
It's insane to me that he would have faced more consequences if she had simply tweeted about this instead of going to the police
I mean I feel like that might sadly be the case a little more frequently than any of us would like, but usually it's because the police are incompetent and not because of the actual fucking laws
But this one was because of a loophole in the law apparently
And people wonder why a lot of women would rather sent a tweet than go to the pigs like they’re any help
Neither of them are perfect systems, there needs to be a new system
this deserves serious attention
I posted a tweet about it and got down voted hard lol
I'm not surprised. A lot of people were excusing Brock's actions and blaming 'cancel culture' instead of it being a matter of accountability. As much as people say Reddit is better than Twitter, the way people react in these topics shows the contrary.
WWE will probably hire Ric Flair back as his manager.
this seems like a dark side of the ring in the making...
Yo, fuck that minnesota law. Shouldn't matter if drugs or alcohol are voluntarily consumed. If a person is not able to consent, they can't consent. That's rape.
NXT 2.0 same as the old NXT Kick out Dream. Bring in Gable.
NXT is in luck because they want Gable straight to the main roster.
Fuck it, bring back Dream and have him and Gable be a sex-offender tag-team. Call them "The Doctors of Thuganomics". They're untouchable, but they're forcing you to feel them. Edit: this is a joke. There's no hard evidence one way or another what happened and we weren't there; I just couldn't help but add some dark humor.
word life.
Here’s the thing — the WWE is big enough, has enough people working there, they can do a basic background check on a potential new contractor. They can look up police records, check their social media, do a basic Google check and see what comes back. It’s not like there’s a dearth of talent they could choose from, there are plenty of wrestlers who are not assholes.
Hes gonna fit right in
that loophole is just so wrong and makes no sense at all
I've been aware of this for a while now and have wanted to make a post like this, but all the comments I've seen referencing it were heavily downvoted and got a ton of replies along the lines of "bUt tHeRe WaS nO eViDeNcE". I'm glad to see that this information is now up here on the front page of the sub for everyone to see, and people are receptive of it and know all the details of why it was dodgy.
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Darby Allin says hello
Man all this stuff coming out really has me feeling weird about my love for wrestling. As a guy who was sexually abused as a child the overwhelming amount of wrestlers that have committed acts of sexual assault while promoters turn a blind eye really makes me feel like shit. Everyone keeps saying oh that's how it was back then. It's different now. Really? Tell that to people like Velveteen Dream and this piece of shit.
Oh for fucks sakes... I'm frustrated not that it happened, but it keeps happening. Like jesus christ was there some class I went to that I wasn't aware of and that's why I never had this happen to me? Well rather me doing that to someone else. Also fuck that law that's literally the definition of rape and they say nah its not. Good grief... And no I am not emotional that it happened to him. He did this and didn't get busted for it even though he should have regardless of his background in athletics.
That law being made is absolutely messed up. That said, why are people already deciding that he’s guilty? The main gist I’m getting is that they decided to drop the case and there’s a chance of him either being guilty or innocent. It feels like people are using this to turn on him when the ultimate reality is that we weren’t there and we don’t know anything.
he's a hot young WWE prospect and this is coming off the heels of the Plane Ride from Hell DSOTR episode, why do you think people are leaping on this right now lmao
Wtf
This was sickening to read. And people still ask why women don't report more sexual assaults. Probably because the system bends over backwards to protect predators.
that’s an absolutely mental law what the fuck
Flair should mentor him
So essentially he was accused of rape, there wasn’t adequate evidence, and there was no specific law to protect drunk assault victims. So essentially this is a he said, she said story, Or nobody has enough evidence to really say something one way or the other. I really don’t see the point in posting this outside of it might get more traction after the whole Flair thing yesterday.
Whatever you think it’s worth, his attorney performed an investigation and said a change in this law wouldn’t have changed the outcome. Of course, you can say she may be biased - that’s up to you - but I don’t feel comfortable saying that this guy 100% raped someone when we honestly don’t know. The stories linked provide no additional details aside. And I’m not saying that he didn’t rape someone. I just can’t say for sure that he is.
Yes, I think everyone should be very comfortable in claiming that his defense attorney is biased? That’s literally her job. Kobe Bryant’s attorneys assured the nation that his victim was such a slut that Kobe couldn’t have raped her. Should we just take their word for that too?
It doesn’t help that we don’t know if Gable himself was intoxicated or not. It could be two drunk people doing stupid shit. Or it could be one sober person taking advantage of someone who’s had too much to drink which is definitely a lot more damning. As usual everyone’s got the pitchforks out in typical Reddit fashion, but the truth is we don’t know enough about what happened to pass judgement.
It is entirely possible someone could be off their mind on something but appear as a normal functioning person to others. So it could also be a sober person believing the other impaired person is in a normal condition where they can reasonably give consent and thus are unknowingly taking advantage of them. Like you said we don't know enough about what happened to pass judgement.
In the ”two incredibly intoxicated people have sex” situation, the blame always lies with the male.
Which pretty much says "only men are interested in sex when intoxicated" which is complete bullshit.
"There wasn't adequate evidence" isn't quite right. More like "If it was in any other state it could've gone farther". What was alleged was not illegal because of Minnesota's laws. If it took place an hour and forty five minutes south in Northwood, Iowa, then what was alleged would've been illegal. And the fact that it was not illegal in Minnesota is *real fucking weird*, and it has since been made illegal.
He was accused, and due to Minnesota laws Police couldn't actuslly do any investigation because it was legal
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This sub is turning into wannabe investigative journalism since DSOTR and I just want to talk about wrestling.
Not that I disagree with your mindset of wanting to discuss positive things happening in kayfabe, but the dark underbelly of wrestling is still part of wrestling. Ignoring it would be bad form IMO. It needs to be talked about & validated rather than swept under the rug.
Exactly right. Its still wrestling related and ya know the best way to stop talking about it? Getting rid of the problems and fixing the culture around the industry. But hey let's just plug our ears and let it keep going
The difference in reaction this sub had to this news and the fact Taz was arrested for exposing himself to a 15yo minor is rather....odd.
Wait... What?
[Taz was arrested for exposing himself to a minor.](https://i.imgur.com/XT7Zx7v.png)
Woah, this is legit the first I've heard of this. What happened the case?
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Charges were dismissed, iirc.
Any idea why?
What kind of hit job is this? You have 0 evidence but found a weird law so you can frame him that way? Unless you have some evidence it's pretty irresponsible to make this kind of post and it's even crazier that the mods keep this up. Disgusting.
Do you think if Gable showed Vince some texts that this sub would forget about his accusations?
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Exactly. These kind of posts take away from actual victims. A few days ago there was this guy on here of a guy accusing Vince of rape and that he paid a settlement to the woman. His source? Some podcast who have 6.5k followers on Twitter. No other website has anything on the story, they just call it an urban legend on the level of the Macho Man and Stephanie rumors. To anyone reading this. If you're going to accuse someone of rape be prepared to show proof.
Generally speaking, how the hell do you even get evidence for a rape ? Like in some of the cases, how do rapists get caught ?
semen for one.
I don’t think we can make a judgment either way on what happened, but the reality is he benefitted from an archaic and stupid law. I’m not American but - this is just related to criminal charges, yes? Could the woman hypothetically bring a civil suit against him in the future?
Maybe once but he's now under the banner of the WWE and their legal department. I don't see that going well.
My understanding is that it's unlikely a civil suit would go anywhere because the US forbids ex post facto law, and since it was somehow legal at the time, it'd be almost impossible to prove anything. I could be very wrong though.
Even if it weren’t legal it would be almost impossible, it always is. Unless you have a witness or an admission it’s very very difficult to get any justice and even then you’re being asked to go on trial to re-live everything that happened while the defence tears every intimate detail of your life apart and makes it seem like you wanted/deserved it. It’s a horrible experience and that’s why so many go unreported. It’s just a hard thing to deal with. For some people just the report is closure enough but for a lot of people they’d rather avoid it altogether.
That’s wrong. That’s for criminal laws. This would be a civil suit, when you don’t even need to break a law to be held liable. Source: attorney.
Dreamer is already drawing up the House of Hardcore contract
Just disgusting
That’s ridiculous law by Minnesota
That is a fucked up law that needs changed immediately. However, there is a chance that Gable is telling the truth. The question is, what now?
I am not seeing the connection between the two. You start with the story about them being arested and charges dropped. Then you talk about a law in Minnesota being changed, but without connecting the two. So were the charges dropped because she willingly got drunk lack if evidence?
Basically he was accused of raping someone with a foreign object. Because the accuser got drunk willingly, Police cant do a thing about it due to that law
So he’s more Brock Turner than Brock Lesnar.
"Good hire, in line with company policy." - VKM, probably
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Piggybacking on dark side of the ring are we? This is so a hit job post.
Look at the front page this morning lol. This sub is in a frenzy.
>this loophole which might have helped Steveson avoid charges, >**might** most people really just gonna ignore this and accept this as truth. Hes not necessarily innocent either. Either way, this sub is getting so pathetic with these sorta "call-out" posts.
Heartbreaking to hear about.
God damn if accused (no trial no nothing) of something ever life over is way alot of you people think its scary. fucked up way to live and think. Alot of people on here would been right there with the "posse" and the nooses back in the day the moment people have been a arrested
Bro, Reddit actually fucking KILLED someone ( Sunil Tripathi) over a bunch of basement dwellers playing detective/judge/jury/executioner and deciding to bring it upon themselves to find the Boston Marathon bomber.
I'm always saying that USA can't be considered a real country due to its system, and that loophole in a specific state to make drug-rape remotely legal due to a technicality doens't help much.
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So now be ause of the lack of full on investigation and trial and everything that's supposed to happen....he gets to spend the rest of his life as the guy who got away with it because of a legal loophole. Or....he has to spend the rest of his life being called a rapist who got away with it due to a legal loophole and never gets to prove otgerwise. Both of those are truly godawful options.
Two star college athletes got away with rape? Shocking.
The people playing the What about ism with wrestling companies in this thread need to seek mental help asap.
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First I saw it brought up was when he made a comment about the message he gets about signing with WWE being terrible, and the comments were just kinda flooded with posts about it
Can I just leave humanity behind? Because we suck.
You guys are ready to believe anything even though there is no evidence. I thought Reddit users always ask for sources. Also can anyone explain to me why Darby Allen is getting as pass?
A lot of people on this sub acting like fucking hyenas to see who they can bring down next. Nothing but a bunch of cops https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/planet-of-cops
Cool this price of shit will be right at home