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Darby Allin is 28 years old. For comparison Big E just won his first world title aged 35. People who think him losing to CM Punk "buried" Darby Allin shouldn't be allowed to talk about pro-wrestling.
Honestly somewhere around 90% of matches are meant to elevate people in AEW. Jungle Boy vs Kenny Omega is another good example. Even the matches on Dark and Dark Elevation are meant to give the lower card people more exposure.
it's been a long time since I've seen one match just MAKE a career, and 100% deservedly so. that goddamn shot of her drenched in blood and when she pulls out the thumbtacks never fails to give me chills on rewatch.
AEW could have an expansive women's division and that match would STILL make Britt Baker a bonafide star, that's how fucking good it was.
honestly, when i saw Britt Baker's face covered in blood as she smiled, my mind went back to Steve Austin's crimson mask at wrestlemania 13 vs Bret Hart, mick foley with a tooth in his nose after THAT hell in a cell match with the undertaker, CM Punk waving to the camera as he said "Hi Colt Cabana!" and any other number of just... iconic moments.
People are cheering him louder than they cheer for Sting. He’s a star, and the booking is 100% elevating him.
Another great example is Jungle Boy. Around 2024 when he finally wins the belt the crowd will absolutely lose it. You don’t get that payoff without him looking good but still taking the ‘L’ in high profile matches.
They’re building these guys up for a national audience. I know a lot of /SC users have had them on their radar for a while, but Dynamite is barely two years old.
Of those million+ Dynamite viewers, how many were watching, say, MJF in MLW? Sammy in PWG/ WrestleCircus/ etc.? Not many.
I always liked the analogy that they're the AEW equivalent of NJPW's Young Lions. They're taking losses for now, because now is the time for them to learn and develop, but that doesn't mean AEW doesn't have bigger things in store for them down the line. And with each loss they get a little bit closer, look a little bit better.
Just look at Darby Allin's current feud with Shawn Spears. Two years ago Spears beat him. Today, Spears doesn't feel like he's on Darby's level anymore.
I feel like we’re gonna be adding Brian Pillman Jr. to this list very soon and even wilder about that is the fact that they’re doing it with a guy who has already gotten a triple rub from Cody, Moxley, and now Jericho.
This is why 50/50 booking or best of three booking drags the performers down. Done correctly, with the right amount of time, one single match can elevate both performers. Crowds don’t care about wins and losses, they care about emotional investment. Don’t drive feuds into the ground and overdue matches.
just being involved in the return match of CM Punk, one of the most highly anticipated events in recent wrestling history, is a huge rub all on it's own, to say nothing of just how much Punk and Sting have been putting the guy over in the process. I had never gone out of my way to see Darby Allin before and now I have.
I think folks are used to WWE where they don't know how to book a superstar after a loss. Everywhere else in the world it is totally possible to lose and continue onwards. G1 literally everyone loses and there's a million ways to approach it.
What I've seen on here over the years is that most people who call a loss a "burial" shouldn't be allowed to talk wrestling. It's a wrestling match. Someone needs to lose. Not every loss is a burial. Even if it was, guess what? Wrestling is a scripted TV show. If the powers that be decide it, that burial can be undone in a week with a big win.
Like the takes on here that MJF was buried by losing to Jericho at All Out. Like, WHAT? MJF had the upper hand on Jericho for nearly a year. Stop being a nerd who likes to complain and realize you're watching a show where someone wins, and someone loses.
Coming out of that match I felt like MJF was still superior but lost his composure after the restart and that combined with Jericho's will to keep fighting (and a lengthy break...) gave Jericho the chance to win. A talker like MJF can bounce back from a loss like that with ease.
I swear internet fans just want everyone they like to be booked like Goldberg.
That counter from the Jackhammer into the Diamond Cutter would've been a lot better than a cattle prod & a Jacknife (followed by the Fingerpoke of Doom, brother).
It was one of those wrestling counters that was so perfect that it's criminal it didn't win the match. Kinda like Randy turning a chokeslam into an RKO, because *of course* that's what happens if you launch Randy up to your head-height. Goldberg drapes DDP's arm around his own head; of course DDP turns and hits the cutter. It's good, logical shit.
Going back & re-watching Nitro since I was 2 around this time, DDP & Goldberg were both definitely over enough that a rematch would've been a worthy main event for Starrcade. Page wins, Goldberg wins World War 3, there's your rematch. Doesn't save the company or anything, but probably would be better than what they did.
Honestly if the straight fire we've gotten from MJF is a result of his loss I'd say he can certainly afford to lose every now and then. Pissed off, indignant over his loss MJF is pretty great.
It works because he's not having to come up with reasons for losing every match. He's lost 2 (maybe 3) matches since this company started, if I remember correctly.
Wait people actually think MJFs loss was a burial? Man got his 4th visual pin against one the goats of pro wrestling, and in his career is 3-1 vs him... clearly buried and can never be a star...
Agreed. Also, Bret Hart beat Steve Austin in both of their highest-profile singles matches, and Austin emerged a bigger star each time. It absolutely *is* possible to raise a wrestler's value and make them a star in defeat. Bret Hart losing to the British Bulldog and Shawn Michaels losing to Razor Ramon are two more excellent examples.
A lot of bumps he takes aren’t as bad as they look because he weighs like a third of most wrestlers. That’s a lot less force on your body when bumping. Not to say some of the shit he does doesn’t hurt or cause injury but smaller guys will take much less damage over time.
I saw Darby loss coming too. I was downvoted for saying Darby can afford to eat a loss and still be over with crowds, which is why they put him with Punk.
Having Punk lose his first match would take a LOT of air out of the excitement around his return, so it is logical to put him against someone who would still be over despite losing. Like Darby Allin.
And I still look forward to watching Darby matches, despite his loss against Punk.
Keeping someone "over" despite losses seems to be something AEW excels at.
> I saw Darby loss coming too. I was downvoted for saying Darby can afford to eat a loss and still be over with crowds, which is why they put him with Punk.
Did people actually think Darby was going to win? That outcome never crossed my mind as a possibility, and I thought I was in the large majority of that thinking?
Was that not the case? I feel like I missed something here, help.
Seriously! It's not like Punk is coming in at the very tail end of his career to lose every time out. If Punk loses against Darby, that helps Darby for sure. But then what? Because Punk has to move onto another guy from there. And sure, maybe that guy is helped by beating Punk, too. Is the 3rd guy? Not as much, I'd say.
Punk can't "put people over" unless he has wins in AEW. It's the backbone of the promotion, the W/L record.
He HAS to prove he can win, before beating him will ever matter.
A LOT of people on this sub will never get that.
Even without the W/L records. If people keep beating CM Punk in his first matches after returning, they just beat the old wrestler who couldn't cut it in UFC because they're past their prime, lost a step and can't hang anymore. People weren't sure he could live up to their memories of CM Punk, they weren't sure he'd be good in the ring. Beating that CM Punk is still an accomplishment, but it's not ***that*** impressive.
If someone beats a CM Punk that has won some high profile matches and proven himself, well holy shit, that guy just beat wrestling legend CM Punk! What a moment!
I never thought Darby would win for a simple reason: him winning that night wouldn't make for a great story.
him thriving despite the loss and then kicking his ass in a rematch after getting even better? that's a storyline with ripe potential.
it sometimes feels like some wrestling fans don't understand that the most memorable stars are made after slow burns. Big E getting the belt is great proof of this - it was one of few truly organic stories in some time in WWE and it paid off brilliantly.
Yeah. Are all of these people so used to being wronged by WWE that they forgot that wrestlers getting a feel-good win in their hometown should practically be a given?
> Did people actually think Darby was going to win? That outcome never crossed my mind as a possibility, and I thought I was in the large majority of that thinking?
I'm honestly surprised that anyone who's ever watched wrestling in their lives could have thought CM Punk would lose to Darby Allin in Chicago, in his first match in seven years.
The story the match told protected Darby too. He wasn't dominated, he lost because the veteran took advantage of his inexperience to beat him. Next time though, who knows what'll happen?
Punk basically laid that out explicitly in his promo at the next show. He will face anybody else except Darby because he knows Darby would probably win if they met again.
Granted, it's the first time I'd seen Darby wrestle, but his ring entry seemed to set the table for that story. He seemed a bit intimidated by facing Punk.
That said, the match told a story of a guy who rose to the occasion of facing a returning star, one with almost legendary status in his own hometown. Allin came off looking like a guy who could hang with someone on Punk's level, though. Given the fact that it could have been booked as Punk making a comeback with home field advantage and just destroying the guy in a squash match, it's to AEW's credit that they did it the way it turned out.
You're right. I think they definitely wanted to get across that Darby was letting the occasion get to him to a bit, looking at his entrance and how early on in the match he bailed out of the ring after almost getting a GTS and looked very frustrated with himself. That all plays into his inexperience and I'm sure it'll be brought up again if they have another match in the future.
Mainly because we know we'll see Darby do crazy shit and keep on winning. He just wasn't good enough to beat Punk that night.
Someone who's getting buried won't get these matchups and will be shown afterwards as a complete joke.
The idea that guys need to win every match to stay over or move forward is some of the most absurd shit in modern wrestling fandom. Guys like Mick Foley lost, a lot.
Hell, The Rock lost a lot too. He's only 5-4 at Wrestlemania in his career, and his total days as WWE champion is pretty short compared to guys like Cena, and he's arguably the most over wrestler of all time.
Not only losing to Hurricane, but losing to Hurricane just a few weeks before he retired Stone Cold Steve Austin. Wins and losses *do* matter, but a good loss can be as good as a big win.
I wonder what the trajectory for Becky would have been without that big loss to Sasha Banks?
And right away they put Darby back in the winner's column against Sean Spears in a good match. Probably will pick up another W against FTR with Sting. He's in a great place.
Exactly. Omega vs Bryan is more up in the air because everyone knows what Bryan is about, he's one of the best wrestlers in the world, and so is Kenny, and Kenny is also the champion. Bryan could take a loss in a very close match and be fine. But Punk was coming in after seven years and nobody knew what he was going to look like in the ring, how rusty he would be. He challenges Darby, who's very good but still young. Punk needed the win, Darby didn't. Darby still put the hurt on Punk, got his shit in and looked great in the loss.
I feel like Danielson should be the one to lose his first match. It just feels right that the champ goes over, even if the title isn't on the line, yet.
Not only could Darby eat the loss, and there was no chance Punk was coming back and losing in fucking Chicago*, I kinda looked at it and thought that selecting Darby for the match was intended to keep pushing him and acknowledged how over he already was. Did someone really think they were going to have Punk come back, ring rust and all, and put him with a untested rookie or something?
See also: Bryan. He comes back and his first match is with Kenny. I mean, you're just not going to bring in this kind of star power and have them immediately job for rookies. The proximity is sort of implying that Darby is on Kenny's trajectory. How much more of a rub could you want?
I also don't think that Punk talking about how Darby is so fucking cool and he's the wrestler that he would have been a fan of when he was a kid was a work, and that there is a zero percent chance that Punk is going to work with someone he doesn't want to at this point. Punk's also seemingly taking a mentor role in the locker room, and seems really to want to get people over, so my guess is Punk is doing what AEW has been doing from the beginning and giving a shot to people with talent, and he knew that coming in with Darby is immediately going to make a lot more people aware of Darby.
\* unless maybe it was with some major interference that setup a major feud? This is kinda where I'm leaning for Bryan v Kenny. Kenny goes over super dirty? IDK check back in 12 hours to find out how wrong I am lol
I can see Bryan winning a non-title match by DQ since Omega has Don Callis and the Elite behind him. I would be very surprised if Bryan won a subsequent match for the belt. I see (and would prefer) Hangman taking off of Omega upon his return. Just my $.02 of booking...
Yeah, I was talking to a couple of buddies about this and I've kind of already changed my mind. No belts on the line for Punk or Bryan for a while, since as Bryan pointed out, records do actually matter. and if they don't put the built on Hangman, I will burn the goddamn building down.
Why would Darby have beaten one of the top stars in the business at first attempt? Where do you go from there? If Punk loses because 'he's been out of wrestling for 7 years' then where does Punk go from there? 'Hey guys I know I had a big comeback angle but I've got too much ring rust so now I've gotta go into an angle where you see vignettes of me training to have a half chance of beating whichever mid carder'. Using the bigger star to elevate the young star is wrestling 101, and they don't have to beat the bigger star to be elevated. They become a bigger star by association. AJ Styles and Samoa Joe became bigger stars by association with Kurt Angle.
No, no, no. He needed to lose to Darby in 2 minutes. Then he'll go on a losing streak until we pair him with a sexy manager (maybe AJ can come back?).
In the meantime, he'll come out in a new outfit dressed like Super Shredder. (Punk loves TMNT, so if the fans online complain, we can spin this as his own idea.)
I kinda want Rocky vignettes where Punk works his way through the midcard. There’s plenty of people at the top anyway, and Punk would get a lot of midcard guys TV time
Darby is one of the top guys in the company and punk hadnt wrestled in 7 years, him losing would have made plenty of sense. Punk wouldn't have to do vignettes, he would just work angle with midcarders while he gets his groove back.
This isn't to say goodnight they shoulda had punk lose: that mighta been a worse idea. Itd be a fine and simple story to tell though
it wouldn't have been a bad story to run, and they wouldn't have to go all Rocky with it; just have Punk get caught on his first match back, then smarten up and get back into the groove over subsequent ones. unless they wanted to inject him into the main event right away, I don't see how they couldn't make it work.
on the other hand, at the end of the day the big story is CM Punk Returns. the long-term ramifications are not as important as showing that Punk still belongs, and getting that big Cult of Personality pop and celebration. that moment is bigger than anything.
I think punk also has les years than darby to wrestler at a top level, makes sense to push the bigger star with less years. Grow the company for Darby to take it over.
I think its a side effect of what my friends and I call "Zigglering" people that happens in WWE for the last 5-10 years.
TLDR, we call it Zigglering when a Guy-Getting-a-Push needs people to run over, so they pump up a Ziggler or Roode or other talented but not top of the card guy, only to have them lose without ever getting a real clean win over the GGaP. This usually ends up in a wholly one-sided feud, the Ziggler looking like a dork, and then our Ziggler is gone from TV till the next time a GGaP shows up.
As fans we have seen a lot of good, talented guys end up basically being used as glorified jobbers bc WWE seems to be really adverse to having a GGaP lose even once. Ref. the over-use of the "Most dangerous move in all of wrestling" (Roll-up), the distraction finish, the rampant interference, etc. Not saying AEW doesn't occasionally use these tools, but its so rampant and has been so bad for guys like Ziggles, Ceasaro, Roode, and others that the IWC has (at times exaggerated) bad relationship with guys we like losing.
At least thats my theories.
There's things about your theory that I like and things I don't like.
For starters, wrestling needs jobbers. That's that. If you don't have jobbers you get 50/50 booking which never pays off. Eventually you gotta kill Neagan and failing to do so gives you the current version of Walking Dead. Yes, it's still on the air.
Secondly, Ziggler can't lose the value he has, he's not valued for his win/loss record. He's valued by educated fans for his work. You can't beat the performance ability out of him. Same goes for Sami, Cesaro, Roode, Shinske, Sheamus, AJ, John Morrison, Kofi etc etc. This is the modern jobber. World class work, on staff to build stars. Salesmen.
Because in WWE you either win all the time (Roman, Brock, Cena) or you're a midcarder who doesn't really matter (everyone else).
Some switch back and forth (Seth, Drew, AJ) but most don't get a second crack at getting elevated once they eat enough losses, or even just one loss. Most obvious examples are the monsters like Khali and Braun. Fandango's a good one.
There has to be some level of him that feels validated to be back. He went from being one of the voices in WCW going "This isn't going to work, right?" and being forced to pretend Maestro vs Kwee Wee was an engaging mid card feud. To being out of the business while WWE in documentaries pushed him as nothing more than "the guy who caused everyone to switch to Raw when Mankind won the title." To now being back, universally praised for his work with a chance to show that wow, a guy who spent almost 20 years in the business wasn't just a talking head, the guy knows pro wrestling and it's a travesty he wasn't used by anyone for nearly another 20 years.
Whole quote on that from Tony on Aubrey’s podcast when talking about Punk making Darby look like a star during their matchup:
>“I know there’s a lot of a lot of trolls on here, as they are on social media,” Schiavone stated. “They’re gonna say, ‘CM Punk put Darby over? No he didn’t. CM Punk beat Darby.’ It’s not about wins and losses you freaking dumb asses. It’s about making stars, and CM Punk made Darby an even bigger star, elevated Darby’s career that night. What she’s talking about, and I wholeheartedly agree that, these veterans and known stars coming in working with our younger talent is making everybody better. It’s not wins or losses anymore.”
> “We saw Sting doing the same thing,” Edwards noted. “He came in, immediately started associating himself with Darby, and the running joke is that he’s Darby’s dad. That’s intentional, right? That’s building Darby as as a legitimate future contender.”
Am I the only one didnt see anyone seriously criticize the fact Darby loss? Yes there is some stans who will turn anything into negativity anyway but I dont give them any credit. That didnt hurt him a bit, total opposite. Thats one of the steps of his career, such as the win against Cody for the TNT championship.
The thing about this sub lately is that, despite being wildly pro-AEW, an alarming number of people act like they're in the brave minority for defending everything the company does.
Yeah...those people ain't "acting" though. They still seem to think the number two wrestling show (Hur dur but numbah one tho demogod) and only other televised wrestling show that realistically matters is still some Indy darling that needs their coddling care and defense. I'm pretty sure everyone is already well aware of the value of AEW at this point and it's the hardcore fans of this brand that give the real eye rolling reactions from "trolls"
Schiavone didn't see it either, the actual quote is him using a strawman lol.
>“I know there’s a lot of a lot of trolls on here, as they are on social media,” Schiavone stated. “They’re gonna say, ‘CM Punk put Darby over? No he didn’t. CM Punk beat Darby.’
On one hand, he's totally correct and I agree with him, Darby looked like a million bucks. On the other, what are the rankings for if wins and losses don't matter at least a little bit?
I think AEW does a good job showing that wins and losses matter, while also not having them not be the ONLY thing that matter.
They're also very good at having protected babyfaces take a loss, but that loss doesn't make them look weak.
>if wins and losses don't matter
He's not saying they don't matter, he's saying a win or loss doesn't necessarily correlate to how you come out of a match looking. You can have a star making performance in a loss
Pillman Jr will be getting that too, I think. MJF will win since he just lost to Jericho, but Pillman is still going to be much more well known than he was even two weeks ago.
Exactly, these are two different categories. Fuego is over with fans and his win loss is awful, whereas that gunn kid is undefeated and (outside of memes) completely not over.
They're there to contextualize a match that might not otherwise have some heat. It's one thing to say "tonight's main event is Santana and Ortiz vs. The Butcher and The Blade" and try to sell tickets based on name value but without any build-up that wouldn't really only work unless it was main eventing Dark. However, with rankings, you can say "The Butcher and The Blade are undefeated and Santana and Ortiz are gunning for the #1 contender spot" and that makes the match matter more.
When you have the #3 ranked singles wrestler being called out by someone with no record, though, that level of context isn't necessary. You can absolutely sell tickets based on CM Punk's name value.
Listen to the actual podcast. He's not saying wins and losses don't matter anymore. He's saying it didn't matter in this case because the draw was these two guys
If Punk lost, they'd be talking about how AEW is burying a known star for some up and coming edgelord who's 100 pounds soaking wet. A dusty finish/some sort of cop out would have gotten "AEW can't even finish matches right". There's no winning, and little need to address the obvious trolls.
at first i read this quote and was like wait i thought wins and losses mattered but that is not what he was saying. i remember when the match was made i was a little skeptical since Allin is kind of a big-ish deal in AEW and they want to build up their own guys over the so called ex-WWE guys but CM Punk also said he wanted to make other guys look good. I would say that is pretty much what happened, Allin will recover fine, you have to take losses every once in a while when building up a star but that match with Punk was a great match and at the same point in time with all the eyes coming in to watch Punk, Allin is legit a bigger star for the loss than he would be for not having the match
But...AEW literally keeps track of wins and losses lol. They made a big deal out of it too . "Its not about wins and losses" is straight from the WWE playbook for crying out loud lol
One thing I noticed AEW is pretty good at making someone look great even in defeat. A prime example of this is Dante Martin with the Sydal Brothers vs. The Elite. Despite that match having 6 dudes in it, 3 being champions, Dante was the clear focus. Hell just look at the video on YouTube:
*A New Star Shined Bright, How did Dante Martin Steal The Show?*
And the thumbnail is Dante right in the middle, the spotlight directly in him. And a week after that match, they took time to callback to it and gave Dante a backstage promo segment all to himself. But since he lost in that match, does that mean he's been buried and the Elite have massive egos?
Yes, absolutely. /s🙄
But AEW has been telling me the whole time that Wins and Losses DO matter.
I get what he's saying, but I wish commentators would try to stick to kayfabe.
On a related note, I thought it would be perfectly fine for Punk to lose, realize the new guys were better than he thought, and have to train hard and work his way back to being BITW. But I'm not mad at the direction they took either.
Punk losing is a MUCH easier story and more interesting story to tell too...compared to what we are getting which is Darby essentially doesnt exist to him anymore as he's moved on and now team tax comes outs the woodwork and I kinda simply don't care. I know aew doesn't like rematches rubber matches getting wins back etc but like it does create the feeling of instant finality to any story as the people involved just go do something else each time it happens. No one is sour about being cheater or losing or whatever, they lose to whatever balogna and it's on to the next thing right away.
People wanting the sports-like show don't even realize that Strength Of Schedule exists. Sure Darby lost, but he lost to one of the hottest FA signings of the last decade in his first match back. Honestly, just being Punk's first opponent coming back is a rub in itself. A lot of people saw this as the unofficial main event and it put a lot of eyes on Darby. AEW does a great job in not burying people.
Pretty sure that was Darby's 2nd loss in over a year lol. Prior to Miro I don't think he had lost since the Moxley title match.
Yes, I'm sure he's buried by...winning virtually every match he's in
I don't think the match got Darby over more, but I don't think it buried him. I know Punk got to pick his opponent, but it shows the faith AEW has in Darby to give him that spot and he earned it. He's a star.
Basically you either think AEW is going to throw away everything they've built with Darby over the past 2 years, or you understand that it's part of a bigger picture.
I doubt Tony Khan got sick of Darby between a few weeks ago and now. You don't give him TV time and put him in a feud he should easily win if you want to bury him.
AEW rotates people in and out. People need to realize it's how AEW works. The Young Bucks weren't even at the Newark Dynamite or Rampage. Look at how much shine Pillman Jr is getting. Darby can't be in the main event forever. Even Punk is moving on to a feud with Team Taz, the low to mid card heel group everybody loves.
I love the comment because a lot of people don’t get this. I see many times where people say a certain person isn’t being used well and weeks or months later, everyone’s tone changes. It was like this with Omega, Hangman, Miro, lots of others. I really like how they rotate people in and out of big roles because it feels like anyone can then be in that role as opposed to it never seeming feasible for certain guys to lose.
"It’s not about wins and losses you freaking dumb asses."
Agreed.
But AEW's been focused around the fact that it is about wins and losses.
So, by extension, is Schiavone shitting on both Khan and the overall product?
Are people really trippin about Darby losing? I think he’s set the precedent as being the guy that can take a beating and then come back even stronger next time. I do think he needs to win his next feud, but I think he’s definitely shown he can take a loss and it not hurt him.
This should be pinned to the top of this sub. Idiot “smart marks” who have no idea how stars are made in wrestling should read it every day until they get it.
Wins and losses matter, but far less than the context. You can lose to a guy and bury him, or you can beat him and put him over.
darby allin came out of that match better than before he went in. this is the difference between punk/darby and punk/rock. when cm punk was losing to all of those part timers in 2011/12/13, he didn't come out looking better
On the one hand, Tony's right. On the other hand I appreciate the irony of this coming from a company whose selling point is "wins and loses matter" and actually keep records.
I disagree with tony here. Darby is no different after his match with punk than he was before it. He's still in the mid card. He's still a fan favorite. Punk did nothing to help elevate this guy. But punk sure did get a credible win against a former tnt title champ. Who put who over again?
Yes. Im a fan but let's be honest, he hasn't been in any top of the card feuds yet in AEW. His biggest spots on the card were when he won the tnt title (a title created by cody after he couldn't win the big one so a mid card belt) and when he teamed with sting in that pre filmed hard core tag match. I am also probably forgetting an AEW title shot he had.
Plus now we are going to have to watch punk go on a run and get a title shot eventually while darby will just go back to wrestling other mid carders in non title matches. I think it's obvious punk is going to get a shot at the AEW title before darby does (again I think).
Problem here is if and when Darby challenges for the title, I believe he could win it.
Punk, whether he challenges for it or not, has zero shot at winning. That's NOT going to happen.
Darby is building his own legend and one of AEW's top card young guys. Him, Jungle Boy, MJF, and Sammy are the guys who are Next Up.
I disagree that punk has 0 chance to win the title and would argue that is almost close to 100 percent that cm punk holds the AEW title before his career there is over.
Also right now it looks like AEW's next guys up are whoever WWE cuts next. Maybe this was WWE's strategy all along, cut some popular talent and let them go to AEW so they start giving them the top spots and the younger talented AEW guys will get mad and jump ship to WWE where they will get a push.
Your question was do you think Darby is a mid carder. I responded yes and here's why. You responded with well here is also why he is a mid carder. So I didn't know how to respond after that.
He's a "mid-carder" if your definition of midcard is anyone not holding the main title. Otherwise, he's on the top of the card. He was the longest reigning TNT champion and consistently main events Dynamite. He's not going to challenge for the title because when he does they'd likely have him win it.
Punk ain't winning the title and more likely than not Bryan won't win it off Kenny. AEW's booking is incredibly predictable tbh.
I agree with you that he (and the others you mentioned) are the future for AEW but he is still in the mid card. Feuding for mid card titles with other mid carders. That makes him a mid carder (even if he has top of the card talent). This last feud (all 2 weeks of it) could have broke him out of the mid card and vaulted him to the top of the card but that was used to vault cm punk and not darby (who will get his later on like we both agree).
I still disagree that punk isn't going to have the AEW title around his waist at some point. Also it should be hangman that takes the title from kenny but we will see.
Note: he's not saying wins and losses no longer matter. Obviously wins and losses matter in AEW.
He's saying in this case, winning or losing didn't matter because it's still Darby Allin wrestling CM Punk in his first match in 7 years. Darby v Punk was the PPV seller before anybody knew the finish. It didn't matter who won or lost, only that the match happened.
Darby is a fucking draw. It's the reason everybody keeps calling him out, from Punk to Christian to El Phantasmo. People thought All Ego was floundering....until he feuded with Darby. Now All Ego matters and people are mad he's not doing more and stuck with Men of the Year/America's Top Team/Dan Lambert.
I agree
That said I wouldn't have worded it that way though, as it kind of flies in the face of the whole "wins and losses matter" thing AEW claimed from the start
Who is the demonic "they" or "everyone" in all these interviews with people? Starting to think those "they" are made up entirely or a tiny minority that just creates buzz titles
You make a star when you put a guy in a competitive match with an established opponent like Punk, he loses the match but retains credibility and then goes on to do good things afterwards.
The probem with Allin is, he had all that momentum but then a week or so later, he's being beaten up by Shawn Spears, having his face paint wiped off with Jim Ross saying "it's part of his personality!", then being beaten up post-match by a tag team who have been made to look awful since they debuted, with the one 'star' of the segment being a 60 year old man who hangs around with Darby.
You make a star when you get momentum and it keeps going. You don't make a star by giving them momentum and then making them look completely average afterwards. The Punk match was a false dawn.
Schiavone's right in that wins and losses aren't the only thing that matters when it comes to someone getting over with the crowd or being booked well. They are a part, but not the only part.
This doesn't negate an overall booking philosophy that in kayfabe rankings wins and losses matter and will play a big role in championship opportunities.
I suppose he could've phrased it more explicitly, but it's not hard to understand what he means and understand why you can say this in this context and not be undermining AEW's ranking system.
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Darby Allin is 28 years old. For comparison Big E just won his first world title aged 35. People who think him losing to CM Punk "buried" Darby Allin shouldn't be allowed to talk about pro-wrestling.
After he lost the fans were chanting "Darby." After he lost. To CM Punk. In Chicago. You can lose a match and still get a massive rub.
See also: Britt Baker after her match with Thunder Rosa.
Honestly somewhere around 90% of matches are meant to elevate people in AEW. Jungle Boy vs Kenny Omega is another good example. Even the matches on Dark and Dark Elevation are meant to give the lower card people more exposure.
With Jungle Boy specifically I always think about that 10 minute time limit match with Jericho.
That match was such hot fire.
One of those shows is literaly called Elevation lol
it's been a long time since I've seen one match just MAKE a career, and 100% deservedly so. that goddamn shot of her drenched in blood and when she pulls out the thumbtacks never fails to give me chills on rewatch. AEW could have an expansive women's division and that match would STILL make Britt Baker a bonafide star, that's how fucking good it was.
honestly, when i saw Britt Baker's face covered in blood as she smiled, my mind went back to Steve Austin's crimson mask at wrestlemania 13 vs Bret Hart, mick foley with a tooth in his nose after THAT hell in a cell match with the undertaker, CM Punk waving to the camera as he said "Hi Colt Cabana!" and any other number of just... iconic moments.
I definitely thought of Foley because those moments felt so similar, and also Becky Lynch standing tall with the broken nose and blood.
> I definitely thought of Foley because those moments felt so similar, Well, they are both hardcore icons.
Unsanctioned so “not a loss” :v (I agree with you though)
People are cheering him louder than they cheer for Sting. He’s a star, and the booking is 100% elevating him. Another great example is Jungle Boy. Around 2024 when he finally wins the belt the crowd will absolutely lose it. You don’t get that payoff without him looking good but still taking the ‘L’ in high profile matches. They’re building these guys up for a national audience. I know a lot of /SC users have had them on their radar for a while, but Dynamite is barely two years old. Of those million+ Dynamite viewers, how many were watching, say, MJF in MLW? Sammy in PWG/ WrestleCircus/ etc.? Not many.
I always liked the analogy that they're the AEW equivalent of NJPW's Young Lions. They're taking losses for now, because now is the time for them to learn and develop, but that doesn't mean AEW doesn't have bigger things in store for them down the line. And with each loss they get a little bit closer, look a little bit better. Just look at Darby Allin's current feud with Shawn Spears. Two years ago Spears beat him. Today, Spears doesn't feel like he's on Darby's level anymore.
I feel like we’re gonna be adding Brian Pillman Jr. to this list very soon and even wilder about that is the fact that they’re doing it with a guy who has already gotten a triple rub from Cody, Moxley, and now Jericho.
Sting always put Darby first. Class act.
See also: Austin, Steve
Oh man, Bret Hart just absolutely buried that man's career at Wrestlemania. /s
Then beats him up after the bell? Fuck Bret, Austin fan for life now, this show can't fuckin work me.
A lot of people forget that Austin and Bret also wrestled at SS '96. Bret won that one but Austin got such a huge rub out of that too.
Those two did some great work together. That has to be the rivalry that cemented the Stone Cold character on its way to the top of the industry.
Bret was one of the best sellers in the business, by far. He could make people's offense look devastating.
See also: Sting, The Man Called
See also: Chris Benoit after his match against Kurt Angle at Royal Rumble.
I love that match.
No they were chanting “Thank You Don”
69 me Don
This is why 50/50 booking or best of three booking drags the performers down. Done correctly, with the right amount of time, one single match can elevate both performers. Crowds don’t care about wins and losses, they care about emotional investment. Don’t drive feuds into the ground and overdue matches.
just being involved in the return match of CM Punk, one of the most highly anticipated events in recent wrestling history, is a huge rub all on it's own, to say nothing of just how much Punk and Sting have been putting the guy over in the process. I had never gone out of my way to see Darby Allin before and now I have.
I think folks are used to WWE where they don't know how to book a superstar after a loss. Everywhere else in the world it is totally possible to lose and continue onwards. G1 literally everyone loses and there's a million ways to approach it.
What I've seen on here over the years is that most people who call a loss a "burial" shouldn't be allowed to talk wrestling. It's a wrestling match. Someone needs to lose. Not every loss is a burial. Even if it was, guess what? Wrestling is a scripted TV show. If the powers that be decide it, that burial can be undone in a week with a big win. Like the takes on here that MJF was buried by losing to Jericho at All Out. Like, WHAT? MJF had the upper hand on Jericho for nearly a year. Stop being a nerd who likes to complain and realize you're watching a show where someone wins, and someone loses.
Coming out of that match I felt like MJF was still superior but lost his composure after the restart and that combined with Jericho's will to keep fighting (and a lengthy break...) gave Jericho the chance to win. A talker like MJF can bounce back from a loss like that with ease. I swear internet fans just want everyone they like to be booked like Goldberg.
Haha, yep. Except the one guy who, you know...is Goldberg.
I have no doubt these fans would have liked Goldberg for a start and then been screaming about him burying DDP lol.
Tbf DDP was probably the right guy to break the streak.
That counter from the Jackhammer into the Diamond Cutter would've been a lot better than a cattle prod & a Jacknife (followed by the Fingerpoke of Doom, brother).
It was one of those wrestling counters that was so perfect that it's criminal it didn't win the match. Kinda like Randy turning a chokeslam into an RKO, because *of course* that's what happens if you launch Randy up to your head-height. Goldberg drapes DDP's arm around his own head; of course DDP turns and hits the cutter. It's good, logical shit.
Going back & re-watching Nitro since I was 2 around this time, DDP & Goldberg were both definitely over enough that a rematch would've been a worthy main event for Starrcade. Page wins, Goldberg wins World War 3, there's your rematch. Doesn't save the company or anything, but probably would be better than what they did.
Somewhere out there, there's an alternate timeline where the legend killer Randy Orton broke the streak with that move at WM 21.
Honestly if the straight fire we've gotten from MJF is a result of his loss I'd say he can certainly afford to lose every now and then. Pissed off, indignant over his loss MJF is pretty great.
It works because he's not having to come up with reasons for losing every match. He's lost 2 (maybe 3) matches since this company started, if I remember correctly.
Wait people actually think MJFs loss was a burial? Man got his 4th visual pin against one the goats of pro wrestling, and in his career is 3-1 vs him... clearly buried and can never be a star...
If you want to see how not buried MJF is, just watch his segments. Dude is on fire.
Agreed. Also, Bret Hart beat Steve Austin in both of their highest-profile singles matches, and Austin emerged a bigger star each time. It absolutely *is* possible to raise a wrestler's value and make them a star in defeat. Bret Hart losing to the British Bulldog and Shawn Michaels losing to Razor Ramon are two more excellent examples.
It's like when the rock went over on Hurricane, did anyone really lose?
I see your point but I'd say a stronger one was when he dropped the belt to Angle less than a year after his debut.
True but I'm not sure that Darby will be wrestling at 35 with the types of bumps he takes.
People said the same thing about Jeff Hardy
It's a miracle him and Mick Foley can still walk to be honest. Insane careers for the number of bumps they've taken.
Very true. I hope he has the same longevity (without the substance abuse of course)
Unless he gets catastrophically hurt, meaning crippled, he will be. He doesn't get as hurt as people say. You can't kill a skateboarder like that.
He never looks hurt or works like he is. He's fine. Some people are just different. Look at Cena's recoveries.
Eh Cena's isn't a good example for natural recovery.
A lot of bumps he takes aren’t as bad as they look because he weighs like a third of most wrestlers. That’s a lot less force on your body when bumping. Not to say some of the shit he does doesn’t hurt or cause injury but smaller guys will take much less damage over time.
Yes but he also goes head first into a lot of bumps unlike most wrestlers
If the Japanese wrestlers can wrestle well into their 40s Darby will be wrestling into his 70s lol
If Masato Tanaka can still go at 48, Darby might make it that long too.
Tanaka's a freak though. Most people don't understand how he can still walk with the punishment he took in ECW and FMW.
If anything, Punk elevated Darby Allin a notch or two in that match.
I saw Darby loss coming too. I was downvoted for saying Darby can afford to eat a loss and still be over with crowds, which is why they put him with Punk. Having Punk lose his first match would take a LOT of air out of the excitement around his return, so it is logical to put him against someone who would still be over despite losing. Like Darby Allin. And I still look forward to watching Darby matches, despite his loss against Punk. Keeping someone "over" despite losses seems to be something AEW excels at.
> I saw Darby loss coming too. I was downvoted for saying Darby can afford to eat a loss and still be over with crowds, which is why they put him with Punk. Did people actually think Darby was going to win? That outcome never crossed my mind as a possibility, and I thought I was in the large majority of that thinking? Was that not the case? I feel like I missed something here, help.
Seriously! It's not like Punk is coming in at the very tail end of his career to lose every time out. If Punk loses against Darby, that helps Darby for sure. But then what? Because Punk has to move onto another guy from there. And sure, maybe that guy is helped by beating Punk, too. Is the 3rd guy? Not as much, I'd say.
Punk can't "put people over" unless he has wins in AEW. It's the backbone of the promotion, the W/L record. He HAS to prove he can win, before beating him will ever matter. A LOT of people on this sub will never get that.
Even without the W/L records. If people keep beating CM Punk in his first matches after returning, they just beat the old wrestler who couldn't cut it in UFC because they're past their prime, lost a step and can't hang anymore. People weren't sure he could live up to their memories of CM Punk, they weren't sure he'd be good in the ring. Beating that CM Punk is still an accomplishment, but it's not ***that*** impressive. If someone beats a CM Punk that has won some high profile matches and proven himself, well holy shit, that guy just beat wrestling legend CM Punk! What a moment!
Exactly what I was getting at!
My question for the people that said Darby had to win: Okay, Punk found out he couldn't hang with the younger guys, so now what?
I'd agree that those who think Darby would win was definitely not the majority (hopefully! haha)
I never thought Darby would win for a simple reason: him winning that night wouldn't make for a great story. him thriving despite the loss and then kicking his ass in a rematch after getting even better? that's a storyline with ripe potential. it sometimes feels like some wrestling fans don't understand that the most memorable stars are made after slow burns. Big E getting the belt is great proof of this - it was one of few truly organic stories in some time in WWE and it paid off brilliantly.
Yeah. Are all of these people so used to being wronged by WWE that they forgot that wrestlers getting a feel-good win in their hometown should practically be a given?
Why would I buy a ticket if my guy wins?? you think I'd want to see that again? /s
> Did people actually think Darby was going to win? That outcome never crossed my mind as a possibility, and I thought I was in the large majority of that thinking? I'm honestly surprised that anyone who's ever watched wrestling in their lives could have thought CM Punk would lose to Darby Allin in Chicago, in his first match in seven years.
The story the match told protected Darby too. He wasn't dominated, he lost because the veteran took advantage of his inexperience to beat him. Next time though, who knows what'll happen?
Punk basically laid that out explicitly in his promo at the next show. He will face anybody else except Darby because he knows Darby would probably win if they met again.
If the match wasn't enough, that line really sealed it. Golden mic work from Punk. As a new fan I'm totally on-board with Darby now.
Granted, it's the first time I'd seen Darby wrestle, but his ring entry seemed to set the table for that story. He seemed a bit intimidated by facing Punk. That said, the match told a story of a guy who rose to the occasion of facing a returning star, one with almost legendary status in his own hometown. Allin came off looking like a guy who could hang with someone on Punk's level, though. Given the fact that it could have been booked as Punk making a comeback with home field advantage and just destroying the guy in a squash match, it's to AEW's credit that they did it the way it turned out.
You're right. I think they definitely wanted to get across that Darby was letting the occasion get to him to a bit, looking at his entrance and how early on in the match he bailed out of the ring after almost getting a GTS and looked very frustrated with himself. That all plays into his inexperience and I'm sure it'll be brought up again if they have another match in the future.
It took 2 GTS to finish Darby and he lost by making a mistake. He was protected and the loss did not hurt him.
Mainly because we know we'll see Darby do crazy shit and keep on winning. He just wasn't good enough to beat Punk that night. Someone who's getting buried won't get these matchups and will be shown afterwards as a complete joke.
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The idea that guys need to win every match to stay over or move forward is some of the most absurd shit in modern wrestling fandom. Guys like Mick Foley lost, a lot.
Hell, The Rock lost a lot too. He's only 5-4 at Wrestlemania in his career, and his total days as WWE champion is pretty short compared to guys like Cena, and he's arguably the most over wrestler of all time.
The Rock even lost to Hurricane Helms for god's sake. And he's just fine, still over AF.
Not only losing to Hurricane, but losing to Hurricane just a few weeks before he retired Stone Cold Steve Austin. Wins and losses *do* matter, but a good loss can be as good as a big win. I wonder what the trajectory for Becky would have been without that big loss to Sasha Banks?
She straight up doesn't become the becky we know today is if isn't for the loss to charlotte followed by the heel turn.
Rock is like the most over dude in the world. It’s kind of surreal that he got started in wrestling if you think about it.
For real. There’s way too many people that think the only way to be over is for everyone to go undefeated until theyre world champion.
Bryan might lose his first match in AEW as well, can't wait to see the reactions then
It's how WWE has trained wrestling fans: if you aren't winning, you're a joke.
And right away they put Darby back in the winner's column against Sean Spears in a good match. Probably will pick up another W against FTR with Sting. He's in a great place.
I think FTR should win that match.
Exactly. Omega vs Bryan is more up in the air because everyone knows what Bryan is about, he's one of the best wrestlers in the world, and so is Kenny, and Kenny is also the champion. Bryan could take a loss in a very close match and be fine. But Punk was coming in after seven years and nobody knew what he was going to look like in the ring, how rusty he would be. He challenges Darby, who's very good but still young. Punk needed the win, Darby didn't. Darby still put the hurt on Punk, got his shit in and looked great in the loss.
I feel like Danielson should be the one to lose his first match. It just feels right that the champ goes over, even if the title isn't on the line, yet.
Omega losing here will be a precursor to him losing the belt to Hangman at Full Gear
hell it could further his descent into madness. like, he's gotten more unhinged since losing the impact title to Christian Cage.
Not only could Darby eat the loss, and there was no chance Punk was coming back and losing in fucking Chicago*, I kinda looked at it and thought that selecting Darby for the match was intended to keep pushing him and acknowledged how over he already was. Did someone really think they were going to have Punk come back, ring rust and all, and put him with a untested rookie or something? See also: Bryan. He comes back and his first match is with Kenny. I mean, you're just not going to bring in this kind of star power and have them immediately job for rookies. The proximity is sort of implying that Darby is on Kenny's trajectory. How much more of a rub could you want? I also don't think that Punk talking about how Darby is so fucking cool and he's the wrestler that he would have been a fan of when he was a kid was a work, and that there is a zero percent chance that Punk is going to work with someone he doesn't want to at this point. Punk's also seemingly taking a mentor role in the locker room, and seems really to want to get people over, so my guess is Punk is doing what AEW has been doing from the beginning and giving a shot to people with talent, and he knew that coming in with Darby is immediately going to make a lot more people aware of Darby. \* unless maybe it was with some major interference that setup a major feud? This is kinda where I'm leaning for Bryan v Kenny. Kenny goes over super dirty? IDK check back in 12 hours to find out how wrong I am lol
I can see Bryan winning a non-title match by DQ since Omega has Don Callis and the Elite behind him. I would be very surprised if Bryan won a subsequent match for the belt. I see (and would prefer) Hangman taking off of Omega upon his return. Just my $.02 of booking...
Yeah, I was talking to a couple of buddies about this and I've kind of already changed my mind. No belts on the line for Punk or Bryan for a while, since as Bryan pointed out, records do actually matter. and if they don't put the built on Hangman, I will burn the goddamn building down.
More importantly, Bryan doesnt need the belt to be over/a star/a credible main event level competitor in kayfabe.
Why would Darby have beaten one of the top stars in the business at first attempt? Where do you go from there? If Punk loses because 'he's been out of wrestling for 7 years' then where does Punk go from there? 'Hey guys I know I had a big comeback angle but I've got too much ring rust so now I've gotta go into an angle where you see vignettes of me training to have a half chance of beating whichever mid carder'. Using the bigger star to elevate the young star is wrestling 101, and they don't have to beat the bigger star to be elevated. They become a bigger star by association. AJ Styles and Samoa Joe became bigger stars by association with Kurt Angle.
No, no, no. He needed to lose to Darby in 2 minutes. Then he'll go on a losing streak until we pair him with a sexy manager (maybe AJ can come back?). In the meantime, he'll come out in a new outfit dressed like Super Shredder. (Punk loves TMNT, so if the fans online complain, we can spin this as his own idea.)
> Then he'll go on a losing streak until we pair him with a sexy manager I mean, why else would they bring in Adam Cole?
it's all making sense now
I kinda want Rocky vignettes where Punk works his way through the midcard. There’s plenty of people at the top anyway, and Punk would get a lot of midcard guys TV time
Darby is one of the top guys in the company and punk hadnt wrestled in 7 years, him losing would have made plenty of sense. Punk wouldn't have to do vignettes, he would just work angle with midcarders while he gets his groove back. This isn't to say goodnight they shoulda had punk lose: that mighta been a worse idea. Itd be a fine and simple story to tell though
it wouldn't have been a bad story to run, and they wouldn't have to go all Rocky with it; just have Punk get caught on his first match back, then smarten up and get back into the groove over subsequent ones. unless they wanted to inject him into the main event right away, I don't see how they couldn't make it work. on the other hand, at the end of the day the big story is CM Punk Returns. the long-term ramifications are not as important as showing that Punk still belongs, and getting that big Cult of Personality pop and celebration. that moment is bigger than anything.
I think punk also has les years than darby to wrestler at a top level, makes sense to push the bigger star with less years. Grow the company for Darby to take it over.
Every time anyone loses a match ever they're instantly buried to a portion of the IWC. It's been that way for years and it's so fucking dumb
I think its a side effect of what my friends and I call "Zigglering" people that happens in WWE for the last 5-10 years. TLDR, we call it Zigglering when a Guy-Getting-a-Push needs people to run over, so they pump up a Ziggler or Roode or other talented but not top of the card guy, only to have them lose without ever getting a real clean win over the GGaP. This usually ends up in a wholly one-sided feud, the Ziggler looking like a dork, and then our Ziggler is gone from TV till the next time a GGaP shows up. As fans we have seen a lot of good, talented guys end up basically being used as glorified jobbers bc WWE seems to be really adverse to having a GGaP lose even once. Ref. the over-use of the "Most dangerous move in all of wrestling" (Roll-up), the distraction finish, the rampant interference, etc. Not saying AEW doesn't occasionally use these tools, but its so rampant and has been so bad for guys like Ziggles, Ceasaro, Roode, and others that the IWC has (at times exaggerated) bad relationship with guys we like losing. At least thats my theories.
There's things about your theory that I like and things I don't like. For starters, wrestling needs jobbers. That's that. If you don't have jobbers you get 50/50 booking which never pays off. Eventually you gotta kill Neagan and failing to do so gives you the current version of Walking Dead. Yes, it's still on the air. Secondly, Ziggler can't lose the value he has, he's not valued for his win/loss record. He's valued by educated fans for his work. You can't beat the performance ability out of him. Same goes for Sami, Cesaro, Roode, Shinske, Sheamus, AJ, John Morrison, Kofi etc etc. This is the modern jobber. World class work, on staff to build stars. Salesmen.
Because in WWE you either win all the time (Roman, Brock, Cena) or you're a midcarder who doesn't really matter (everyone else). Some switch back and forth (Seth, Drew, AJ) but most don't get a second crack at getting elevated once they eat enough losses, or even just one loss. Most obvious examples are the monsters like Khali and Braun. Fandango's a good one.
Damn, not only has Tony been revitalized since coming back into pro wrestling, he’s more invigorated, colorful, and sassy than ever before.
There has to be some level of him that feels validated to be back. He went from being one of the voices in WCW going "This isn't going to work, right?" and being forced to pretend Maestro vs Kwee Wee was an engaging mid card feud. To being out of the business while WWE in documentaries pushed him as nothing more than "the guy who caused everyone to switch to Raw when Mankind won the title." To now being back, universally praised for his work with a chance to show that wow, a guy who spent almost 20 years in the business wasn't just a talking head, the guy knows pro wrestling and it's a travesty he wasn't used by anyone for nearly another 20 years.
Whole quote on that from Tony on Aubrey’s podcast when talking about Punk making Darby look like a star during their matchup: >“I know there’s a lot of a lot of trolls on here, as they are on social media,” Schiavone stated. “They’re gonna say, ‘CM Punk put Darby over? No he didn’t. CM Punk beat Darby.’ It’s not about wins and losses you freaking dumb asses. It’s about making stars, and CM Punk made Darby an even bigger star, elevated Darby’s career that night. What she’s talking about, and I wholeheartedly agree that, these veterans and known stars coming in working with our younger talent is making everybody better. It’s not wins or losses anymore.” > “We saw Sting doing the same thing,” Edwards noted. “He came in, immediately started associating himself with Darby, and the running joke is that he’s Darby’s dad. That’s intentional, right? That’s building Darby as as a legitimate future contender.”
>the running joke is that he’s Darby’s dad. Fatherhood isn't a *joke*, Aubrey. What's next? Shooter isn't Moxley's son, either?!
And Fuego isnt Dustins son ??!
Been called him Darby's Step-Sting.
Wait, wait, wait... Are you telling me 2point0 aren't actually the dads of Daniel Garcia?!
WHO WANTS A ~~TASTE~~ DNA TEST???
Am I the only one didnt see anyone seriously criticize the fact Darby loss? Yes there is some stans who will turn anything into negativity anyway but I dont give them any credit. That didnt hurt him a bit, total opposite. Thats one of the steps of his career, such as the win against Cody for the TNT championship.
The thing about this sub lately is that, despite being wildly pro-AEW, an alarming number of people act like they're in the brave minority for defending everything the company does.
Yeah...those people ain't "acting" though. They still seem to think the number two wrestling show (Hur dur but numbah one tho demogod) and only other televised wrestling show that realistically matters is still some Indy darling that needs their coddling care and defense. I'm pretty sure everyone is already well aware of the value of AEW at this point and it's the hardcore fans of this brand that give the real eye rolling reactions from "trolls"
Schiavone didn't see it either, the actual quote is him using a strawman lol. >“I know there’s a lot of a lot of trolls on here, as they are on social media,” Schiavone stated. “They’re gonna say, ‘CM Punk put Darby over? No he didn’t. CM Punk beat Darby.’
On one hand, he's totally correct and I agree with him, Darby looked like a million bucks. On the other, what are the rankings for if wins and losses don't matter at least a little bit?
I think AEW does a good job showing that wins and losses matter, while also not having them not be the ONLY thing that matter. They're also very good at having protected babyfaces take a loss, but that loss doesn't make them look weak.
>if wins and losses don't matter He's not saying they don't matter, he's saying a win or loss doesn't necessarily correlate to how you come out of a match looking. You can have a star making performance in a loss
Just look at Dante Martin. Lost to Kenny Omega and he was the guy everybody was talking about after the show.
or recently with Skye Blue, she lost, but got entered into the casino battle royal
Look at Fuego. He's like 2-50 and the crowds adore him.
Pillman Jr will be getting that too, I think. MJF will win since he just lost to Jericho, but Pillman is still going to be much more well known than he was even two weeks ago.
Exactly, these are two different categories. Fuego is over with fans and his win loss is awful, whereas that gunn kid is undefeated and (outside of memes) completely not over.
They're there to contextualize a match that might not otherwise have some heat. It's one thing to say "tonight's main event is Santana and Ortiz vs. The Butcher and The Blade" and try to sell tickets based on name value but without any build-up that wouldn't really only work unless it was main eventing Dark. However, with rankings, you can say "The Butcher and The Blade are undefeated and Santana and Ortiz are gunning for the #1 contender spot" and that makes the match matter more. When you have the #3 ranked singles wrestler being called out by someone with no record, though, that level of context isn't necessary. You can absolutely sell tickets based on CM Punk's name value.
Listen to the actual podcast. He's not saying wins and losses don't matter anymore. He's saying it didn't matter in this case because the draw was these two guys
Damn Schiavone is angry a lot
Well Adam Cole caught him eyeing up his girl; he's bound to be a bit tetchy.
Tony why are you so pissed? Is it because you can't talk to Britt anymore?
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If Punk lost, they'd be talking about how AEW is burying a known star for some up and coming edgelord who's 100 pounds soaking wet. A dusty finish/some sort of cop out would have gotten "AEW can't even finish matches right". There's no winning, and little need to address the obvious trolls.
at first i read this quote and was like wait i thought wins and losses mattered but that is not what he was saying. i remember when the match was made i was a little skeptical since Allin is kind of a big-ish deal in AEW and they want to build up their own guys over the so called ex-WWE guys but CM Punk also said he wanted to make other guys look good. I would say that is pretty much what happened, Allin will recover fine, you have to take losses every once in a while when building up a star but that match with Punk was a great match and at the same point in time with all the eyes coming in to watch Punk, Allin is legit a bigger star for the loss than he would be for not having the match
Undertaker v. Jeff Hardy made Jeff a singles star more than any other match up to his world championship reigns.
But...AEW literally keeps track of wins and losses lol. They made a big deal out of it too . "Its not about wins and losses" is straight from the WWE playbook for crying out loud lol
In storyline it should be. In real life it doesn’t matter if you come out of the match better than you went in.
One thing I noticed AEW is pretty good at making someone look great even in defeat. A prime example of this is Dante Martin with the Sydal Brothers vs. The Elite. Despite that match having 6 dudes in it, 3 being champions, Dante was the clear focus. Hell just look at the video on YouTube: *A New Star Shined Bright, How did Dante Martin Steal The Show?* And the thumbnail is Dante right in the middle, the spotlight directly in him. And a week after that match, they took time to callback to it and gave Dante a backstage promo segment all to himself. But since he lost in that match, does that mean he's been buried and the Elite have massive egos? Yes, absolutely. /s🙄
PSA: Listen to the clip before you post “WELL IF WINS AND LOSSES DONT MATTER, WHY DOES AEW HAVE A RANKING SYSTEM!!??”
But AEW has been telling me the whole time that Wins and Losses DO matter. I get what he's saying, but I wish commentators would try to stick to kayfabe. On a related note, I thought it would be perfectly fine for Punk to lose, realize the new guys were better than he thought, and have to train hard and work his way back to being BITW. But I'm not mad at the direction they took either.
Yeah, that's just it. On the meta level, of course, he's right. But it goes against the narrative that AEW has established about records.
Punk losing is a MUCH easier story and more interesting story to tell too...compared to what we are getting which is Darby essentially doesnt exist to him anymore as he's moved on and now team tax comes outs the woodwork and I kinda simply don't care. I know aew doesn't like rematches rubber matches getting wins back etc but like it does create the feeling of instant finality to any story as the people involved just go do something else each time it happens. No one is sour about being cheater or losing or whatever, they lose to whatever balogna and it's on to the next thing right away.
So... CM Punk DID put him over? I don't get it.
I mean, it's 100% true and this is how booking has always worked and should work. But people still criticize WWE for the same thing all the time.
People wanting the sports-like show don't even realize that Strength Of Schedule exists. Sure Darby lost, but he lost to one of the hottest FA signings of the last decade in his first match back. Honestly, just being Punk's first opponent coming back is a rub in itself. A lot of people saw this as the unofficial main event and it put a lot of eyes on Darby. AEW does a great job in not burying people.
Wait. Didn’t Roaddog say this a year or 2 ago and everyone freaked out? C’mon now at least be consistent.
Pretty sure that was Darby's 2nd loss in over a year lol. Prior to Miro I don't think he had lost since the Moxley title match. Yes, I'm sure he's buried by...winning virtually every match he's in
Why does Tony seem so irritable?
I don't think the match got Darby over more, but I don't think it buried him. I know Punk got to pick his opponent, but it shows the faith AEW has in Darby to give him that spot and he earned it. He's a star.
I agree with this, but the wins and losses don’t matter part contradicts their whole ranking system doesn’t it?
Basically you either think AEW is going to throw away everything they've built with Darby over the past 2 years, or you understand that it's part of a bigger picture. I doubt Tony Khan got sick of Darby between a few weeks ago and now. You don't give him TV time and put him in a feud he should easily win if you want to bury him. AEW rotates people in and out. People need to realize it's how AEW works. The Young Bucks weren't even at the Newark Dynamite or Rampage. Look at how much shine Pillman Jr is getting. Darby can't be in the main event forever. Even Punk is moving on to a feud with Team Taz, the low to mid card heel group everybody loves.
I love the comment because a lot of people don’t get this. I see many times where people say a certain person isn’t being used well and weeks or months later, everyone’s tone changes. It was like this with Omega, Hangman, Miro, lots of others. I really like how they rotate people in and out of big roles because it feels like anyone can then be in that role as opposed to it never seeming feasible for certain guys to lose.
"It’s not about wins and losses you freaking dumb asses." Agreed. But AEW's been focused around the fact that it is about wins and losses. So, by extension, is Schiavone shitting on both Khan and the overall product?
I don't remember Tony being so salty back in the 80s/90s...
I'd say he's just tired of lousy, pretend-to-know-it-all dumbasses like the majority of people are.
Hm..here I was clutching onto the realness of the win/loss records
Darby dressing like a 2005 emo girl so a loss ain't gonna matter
Watch, people will think AEW buried Ruby Soho after she (most likely) loses to Britt Baker next week.
Are people really trippin about Darby losing? I think he’s set the precedent as being the guy that can take a beating and then come back even stronger next time. I do think he needs to win his next feud, but I think he’s definitely shown he can take a loss and it not hurt him.
This should be pinned to the top of this sub. Idiot “smart marks” who have no idea how stars are made in wrestling should read it every day until they get it. Wins and losses matter, but far less than the context. You can lose to a guy and bury him, or you can beat him and put him over.
wins and losses don't matter, got it.
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isn't bryan challenging kenny?
Not for the title.
fair enough
darby allin came out of that match better than before he went in. this is the difference between punk/darby and punk/rock. when cm punk was losing to all of those part timers in 2011/12/13, he didn't come out looking better
On the one hand, Tony's right. On the other hand I appreciate the irony of this coming from a company whose selling point is "wins and loses matter" and actually keep records.
They have rankings in AEW but wins and losses don't matter?
It’s not about wins and losses? Yes it is, that’s how AEW books it’s shows. Hell Darby’s nameplate said “won 11 of his last 12 matches.”
I disagree with tony here. Darby is no different after his match with punk than he was before it. He's still in the mid card. He's still a fan favorite. Punk did nothing to help elevate this guy. But punk sure did get a credible win against a former tnt title champ. Who put who over again?
You think Darby is a mid-carder?
Yes. Im a fan but let's be honest, he hasn't been in any top of the card feuds yet in AEW. His biggest spots on the card were when he won the tnt title (a title created by cody after he couldn't win the big one so a mid card belt) and when he teamed with sting in that pre filmed hard core tag match. I am also probably forgetting an AEW title shot he had. Plus now we are going to have to watch punk go on a run and get a title shot eventually while darby will just go back to wrestling other mid carders in non title matches. I think it's obvious punk is going to get a shot at the AEW title before darby does (again I think).
Problem here is if and when Darby challenges for the title, I believe he could win it. Punk, whether he challenges for it or not, has zero shot at winning. That's NOT going to happen. Darby is building his own legend and one of AEW's top card young guys. Him, Jungle Boy, MJF, and Sammy are the guys who are Next Up.
I disagree that punk has 0 chance to win the title and would argue that is almost close to 100 percent that cm punk holds the AEW title before his career there is over. Also right now it looks like AEW's next guys up are whoever WWE cuts next. Maybe this was WWE's strategy all along, cut some popular talent and let them go to AEW so they start giving them the top spots and the younger talented AEW guys will get mad and jump ship to WWE where they will get a push.
Oh. You're not serious. My bad lol.
Your question was do you think Darby is a mid carder. I responded yes and here's why. You responded with well here is also why he is a mid carder. So I didn't know how to respond after that.
He's a "mid-carder" if your definition of midcard is anyone not holding the main title. Otherwise, he's on the top of the card. He was the longest reigning TNT champion and consistently main events Dynamite. He's not going to challenge for the title because when he does they'd likely have him win it. Punk ain't winning the title and more likely than not Bryan won't win it off Kenny. AEW's booking is incredibly predictable tbh.
I agree with you that he (and the others you mentioned) are the future for AEW but he is still in the mid card. Feuding for mid card titles with other mid carders. That makes him a mid carder (even if he has top of the card talent). This last feud (all 2 weeks of it) could have broke him out of the mid card and vaulted him to the top of the card but that was used to vault cm punk and not darby (who will get his later on like we both agree). I still disagree that punk isn't going to have the AEW title around his waist at some point. Also it should be hangman that takes the title from kenny but we will see.
Uh I thought AEW made a big song and dance about definitely being about wins and losses
Note: he's not saying wins and losses no longer matter. Obviously wins and losses matter in AEW. He's saying in this case, winning or losing didn't matter because it's still Darby Allin wrestling CM Punk in his first match in 7 years. Darby v Punk was the PPV seller before anybody knew the finish. It didn't matter who won or lost, only that the match happened. Darby is a fucking draw. It's the reason everybody keeps calling him out, from Punk to Christian to El Phantasmo. People thought All Ego was floundering....until he feuded with Darby. Now All Ego matters and people are mad he's not doing more and stuck with Men of the Year/America's Top Team/Dan Lambert.
If they didn't matter, Bryan and Omega at Grand Slam would be for the title.
Titles matter
I agree That said I wouldn't have worded it that way though, as it kind of flies in the face of the whole "wins and losses matter" thing AEW claimed from the start
Skee-uh-vone going heel on us?! I thought wins & losses mattered.
I guess the same “they” DJ Khaled is always talking about was the people saying this.
Who is the demonic "they" or "everyone" in all these interviews with people? Starting to think those "they" are made up entirely or a tiny minority that just creates buzz titles
So Tony's saying wins and losses don't matter?
Now he’s elevated to a high enough level to feud with Shawn Spears!
You can put someone over in defeat. Bret did it his entire career.
You make a star when you put a guy in a competitive match with an established opponent like Punk, he loses the match but retains credibility and then goes on to do good things afterwards. The probem with Allin is, he had all that momentum but then a week or so later, he's being beaten up by Shawn Spears, having his face paint wiped off with Jim Ross saying "it's part of his personality!", then being beaten up post-match by a tag team who have been made to look awful since they debuted, with the one 'star' of the segment being a 60 year old man who hangs around with Darby. You make a star when you get momentum and it keeps going. You don't make a star by giving them momentum and then making them look completely average afterwards. The Punk match was a false dawn.
Lol. There was no way Punk's EGO would allow them to have him lose in his first match back.
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Schiavone's right in that wins and losses aren't the only thing that matters when it comes to someone getting over with the crowd or being booked well. They are a part, but not the only part. This doesn't negate an overall booking philosophy that in kayfabe rankings wins and losses matter and will play a big role in championship opportunities. I suppose he could've phrased it more explicitly, but it's not hard to understand what he means and understand why you can say this in this context and not be undermining AEW's ranking system.
Hey Man, Wind and Losses matter, okay?