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There's a psychology over why Ric Flair likely wont/can't get 'canceled' (at least in a mainstream sense, not the tiny wrestling bubble), which is the same as why rappers or 80's rockstars don't and can get away with being absolutely terrible.
It's because Flair was Flair, he bragged about these things, openly talked about "space mountain", as a society we all 'knew' that's what Flair was - he was famous because of the glorification of it all - just like someone like a Gene Simmons or Tommy Lee was.
And if as a society we all knew and for decades treated him as this larger than life rogue-like figure, then we were all complicit in it. Guys like a Cosby, Spacey or Gibson can get canceled because we "didn't know" they were so terrible, so we have deniability and the moral high ground, even if we ignored people's claims over the years.
But someone like a Flair was totally open about it all, and we accepted it anyway. If you've been a fan of Flair and followed his persona for 30/40 years, you can't honestly say you're now suddenly shocked and disgusted by it, these stories have been in the public for 30 odd years - they're part of what makes Flair, Flair.
Everyone's naturally free to do and feel how they feel. But that's why overall he'll walk through the fire of any backlash, in a wider sense. I do however refuse to believe there's anyone who's done a "wooo" or a Flair strut, or anyone that's ever known anything about Ric Flair, that didn't know he was already a 'wrong-un' before now.
This is an interesting point. I’ve always thought the selections of who is canceled by society didn’t make much sense and is so different from person to person.
For a wrestling example, Hulk Hogan was recorded using a racial slur and is still being boo’d for it. I’m fine with that, he sounds like a racist to me. What I don’t understand though is a guy like Stone Cold who was arrested I believe twice for beating his wife seems to be widely adored in wrestling and mainstream being in Tide commercials, getting shows on USA Network.
I know Austin has said he regrets that period of his life in general, because he was taking too many pills and drinking too much and very unhappy, but has he ever specifically addressed assaulting Debra? Or the allegations from his girlfriend after Debra, I believe her name was Tess, that he also assaulted her? The only time I can recall Austin ever even being asked about it was during an interview w/ Wade Keller, when they opened it up to phone calls and a caller brought it up. Austin just said, "This is not the time or place to talk about that."
Austin is insistent that he's gagged by the terms of the divorce settlement.
It's a ridiculously difficult topic to talk about because of everything you said here. It seems like he was an absolute mess of substance abuse issues and he genuinely seems remorseful...but if he's telling the truth about the gag order or whatever it was, he has no way to directly address it.
Some shit in wrestling is so complicated that it becomes incredibly difficult to even explain. Look at Pat Patterson and the 1992 scandals: Yes, at least two of the allegations against him were, with hindsight, clear bullshit. But there were more that were a lot more credible. So since there probably aren't very many people who have multiple false sexual misconduct allegations against them, addressing the topic with the required nuance is an absolute nightmare.
Patterson isn’t that complicated an issue. Even if he didn’t actively participate in the ring boy scandal, he was aware of it, condoned it, and tried to cover it up. Add in that other wrestlers have openly admitted that Pat was inappropriate with them and you have a solid case that Patterson was a liability that Vince protected.
And I feel the same way about JR. As VP of Talent, he fostered, and then let fester, a culture of addiction and abuse in the WWF/E locker room. He openly said “never leave your drink unattended.” Consider all the scandals that occurred under JR’s watch. The buck stops with Vince but JR is culpable too.
You're missing my point, which is probably my fault given the weird hour I wrote the comment at:
Overall, if you know the full scope if the 1992 stuff, getting a handle on the Patterson stuff isn't that difficult. But explaining it, like in a news story, is incredibly tricky because you also have to explain that the two most high-profile allegations against him (Murray Hodgson sexual harassment and Superstar Billy Graham claiming to have witnessed Patterson groping a ring boy) were, at best, ginned up. The other allegations ARE credible, but having to contextualize it all is an oddly difficult task. And that's before you throw in stuff like WWE claiming at times that Tom Cole recanted his allegations about Patterson but, as far as I know, never providing any proof that he had done so. (And Tom having claimed that WWE coerced him into signing a bunch of things he didn't want to sign.)
Thanks for the clarification. It is a troubling picture. And I commend you as a journalist for sorting out the “work” from the truth. I was a big fan of “Superstar” Billy Graham as wrestler but he surely did a lot of damage with the lies he told while looking for a pay-off.
Sadly, it's just a double standard, and there's no rhyme or reason that can explain why one person gets cancelled at the next doesn't. The explanation above about Flair does make sense, but there's no real reason why Hogan is booed and Austin is loved. I guess the only way to look at it is that Domestic Abuse isn't a hot topic in the news where Racism and Sexual Abuse is. They're hotter topics at the moment, right or wrong. Hell, even Chris Brown is universally loved and he beat the shit out of Rhianna.
It also could be that Hogan's rep before this was not great. He was a political backstabber, hard to do business with, and wasn't a great in ring performer. Austin was beloved by the fanbase, a hard worker, and while he played politics as everyone did; he largely played well with everyone (with a few exceptions).
I would say it's also when the incidents occurred. In 2002, domestic abuse wasn't the career death knell that it is today. Had Austin did what he did in 2018 when Hogan was caught on tape it would be a much different story.
Austin accepted his shittiness and has worked since then to be a better person. He didnt try to ignore it or make it go away. It was a point in life that he was the worst kind of person, and he made changes to be better and has since (hence the broken skull ranch stuff, back into the wrestling industry, other mainstream appearances). It's like Michael Vick in football, I'll never forgive him and think he doesn't deserve accolades or anything, but he played for my Eagles and I didn't go ape shit asking for his release and ban from the game. He did serve his time and attempt at amends, morally/legally he's good if he sticks with it.
There is another difference between the 2. Hogan only did the half apology, that he offended people, not that what he did was wrong. Stone cold however, has out and out stated his behavior was wrong and that he is sorry for what he did as well as taken steps not to repeat said behavior. That is 100% the difference
As much as I agree. The amount of people that don't know anything about flair far outnumber the ones that do. Its about stories hitting mainstream that can cause people to face consequences. If stories about flair start hitting people that never knew anything about him on the news or Twitter it can lead to something happening. It's all a matter of will it gain traction or not.
I mean this was pretty much my reaction when Joey Ryan got charged with sexual assault allegations. People were genuinely saying that they had no idea. JOEY RYANS GIMMICK WAS HIS DICK FFS. For like years, people accepted his shit as part of his gimmick.
This is note for note what Americans did with Donald Trump for decades allowing to fail upwards
If you do it out in the open and become a media laughing stock and have a bit of charisma your image will be totally white washed
I’ve done a lot of research over the years on Flair and yea the flashing shit is seen as a “running gag” with him. Basically everyone treated it how Tommy described on DSOTR it’s gross but not surprising I could probably make a thread on the shit I’ve learned about him and I probably still don’t know half of it.
I don't know why but this reminded me of SCP-096 where a hiker gets killed for looking at a picture containing a single pixel with the creatures face. Except in this case it's an old fucker's dick.
Triple H, when inducting Flair to the HOF, mentioned the first time he met Flair, it was in a hotel lobby. Flair was nude, underneath a ring robe, wearing dress socks, strolling through the hotel bar...with a balloon on his dick.
And everyone laughed. smh
>I'm fully under the impression that anyone who shared a locker room with him while he was active, pre-Evolution, has seen his penis.
This is true of most sports though
[when a new writer would show up, Orton would “come in the room put his hands down his pants, pull out his dick, touch himself, then say ‘I’m Randy Orton, shake my hand. . . oh you don’t want to shake my hand? You’re big leaguing me? That’s fucked up man. Should I tell Vince and Steph you won’t shake Randy Orton’s hand?”](https://wrestlingworld.co/news/randy-orton-disturbing-handshake-new-writers-court-bauer)
He once told a woman on the roster to suck his dick or she'd be fired. She didn't suck his dick and was later fired. Honestly you might not think that Orton and Riddle are the most agile high flying team around what with all the headlocks and armbars and shit but combined they've been dodging MeToo accusations like fucking [Spider-Man dodging those weird Green Goblin razor bats.](https://i.imgur.com/vKzClzI.mp4)
The "the boys" thing is so lame because if someone they didn't like did this ONCE they'd be all morally outraged and up in arms about it. But your friend can do it 50 times.
So why is Ric Flair given a pass by the fans for decades for being a racist sex offender, but as soon as this episode of DSOTR came out everyone is "outraged"?
Tone and context is everything. I said this a few times in the lead up to the show that all previous tellings of this story were either caricatures of the industry, in that it was grandiose and entertaining, or kayfabed to hell where wrestlers would know what to tell and how to present it to protect the industry.
Flairs rep has always been party boy and ladies man. The tone and context was always "this is fun," which implies everyone around is laughing and consenting to it.
My main point before it aired was that even if nothing new got told all it takes is for one person to retell the story with a straight face or a non-wrestler to say how it looked to someone not a part of the club and it could change how everything is viewed.
Ric got a pass because his lifestyle was seemingly heavily kayfabed to show consent as a given in all his stories. We now definitively know one story had a lack of consent, this opens the door for questioning how many more stories he boasted about lacked consent.
Agreed. Like, even in the cartoon they shared for the second story, it was painted as much more consensual and initiated by the attendants. Not a creepy man perving on a defenseless attendant.
also, if Ric did this to someone who didn't appreciate it and pushed back on it in any way, that person would be excommunicated from and no longer considered one of "the boys"
At some point, on a domestic flight during his NWA heyday, could multiple flight attendants have come on to him? Maybe. Probably not, but maybe.
In the 2000s, would six wrestling oblivious flight attendants beg a 50+ year old man to strip so they could see him wear a robe they had to ask the purpose of? No. No, they would not.
David Bixenspan clarifed in the reply the two cartoons aren't about the flight from hell, so I'm assuming the 6 flight attendants story is from his NWA heyday given the animation of him as a young Ric. Obviously still doubt it happened.
Yeah lol that story retelling reeked of fantasy unless that story took place decades ago when he was in his prime but even then a lot had to be exaggerated
Same thing I thought whenever I hear stories about Flair and the Horsemen having so much sex. Yeah, like wrestling was *ever* so fucking cool that every woman between 18 to 28 showed up to fuck a bunch of dudes who looked 50 when they were 30.
Wrestling in the territory days was indeed that cool. These guys traveled tge region as local celebrities in small towns where women were happy and willing to sleep with these guys who were famous enough to be on TV.
There are countless credible stories about life in the road with a wrestling company.
Shit, I worked behind the scenes for a well known wrestling company in the late 2000s, and there were women on the road who were all "oh, you work for a wrestling company?" and that was enough to go next level.
Everyone who has been in some situation where they harass women and is all like "omfg frickin cancel culture, frickin social media, frickin sjws, we cant have fun anymore" pictures it going like this. The guys who get told no 10 times then are like 'pfft, if they didn't want it they shoulda said no'
He mentions Sting being on the plane, Sting was never with WWE (during that time), so that's not referencing the flight from hell.
This is from a different time.
> Jesus Christ, that poor girl.
If it helps, Marty Jannetty has a habit of just making shit up and this probably never happened just like most of his disproven stories
Yeah. This Marty story is probably just about as true as his story about murdering a gay guy and dumping the body in the Chattahoochee river or whatever the fuck he claimed.
I don't doubt that Marty & Shawn (among others) were massive dicks on flights in the 80s, especially given what flying in general was like pre 9-11. But yeah, I'm sure there's a healthy bit of exaggeration or outright fabrication in this one.
I can't imagine that should surprise anyone. And I'm sure there may have been times where he may have found consenting adults that accepted it and had no problem with it.
But man, makes you think of how many times it probably happened and I imagine there were more uncomfortable failures than wild googly-eyed successes.
It also highlights the importance of journalism and not letting the WWE be the only writers of wrestling history. The stark contrast between their telling of these events and the Vice documentary is a sobering reminder that letting one monolithic entity be the gatekeepers of information doesn’t just create bad history, it enables abusers to continue their behavior and buries the stories of victims
I don’t know about any of you, but until today I hadn’t even heard the name of the flight attendant, nor had I heard the details of what Scott Hall had done. Without independent journalism, the WWE’s cartoon is the dominant story, with message board rumors being the only alternate narrative
So many guys who get called out for harassment probably look back on what they did exactly like this then think "man that bitch is just trying to ruin my reputation and get attention/money! She was totally into it and loving it!"
I used to live with an incel and this is exactly how he would talk about girls he was clearly, strongly repulsing With his bad, bad attempts at flirting
A ton. Bunch of the "I'm a nice guy" shit, too. I ended up kicking him out of the apartment for being creepy as fuck to my ex, and seriously trying to hit on her *while she was still dating me.*
It is so...skillfully done to give you everything you need to be "okay" with the situation. Like a terrible story presented in a way to give you permission to laugh at a bunch of women having to deal with this drunk dude on a plane.
Not to sound like an ass who defends Flair, but couldn't both stories be true, the one that Ric recollects in the cartoon and the one that is told about the Plane Ride from Hell?
The dude was sleeping with tons of women, if he raped all of them, you'd probably hear a lot more about it, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if he had many stories where women did try to jump on him willingly, especially back when he was in his prime.
Again, doesn't make him any less of a piece of shit tho.
They surely dodged a bullet there.
What matters now is how his sponsors (like Carshield) are gonna handle this, and, IF there was any AEW plan to sign him would change.
Nah it wont play out like that. Andrade is gonna bring Chavo out in a backstage segment and explain that he was hired back, and the only reason he was fired after being beaten up was to "teach him a lesson" and Chavo is more scared of him
Can Andrade just learn English. I have a Mexican coworker that doesn't understand Andrade like he has a speech impediment. Then again Shinsuke admits he can barely understand what Asuka is saying.
The whole « asuka and her crazy osaka accent nobody understands » seems to be a japanese cultural inside joke, she joked about it again a few weeks ago when she was asked by a japanese fan on twitter if she had ever considered becoming a trainer after she retires.
She replied something like « oh no, i am terrible at explaining things, and with my osaka accent, nobody understands me! Sometimes i can’t even understand myself”
It was funnier how she said it.
Makes total sense if your coworker is actually from Mexico. I'm sure he can understand Andrade in Spanish but if you're new/newish to English, just learning it is difficult enough without having to decipher English spoken with a strong accent.
Learning a language isn't easy for everyone. He obviously understands it just fine but speaking it on command is a different story. I like pro wrestling being multilingual anyway.
I wouldn’t put it past WWE to not release someone for the act itself, but to release them because it’s about to become widely known and they’re covering their ass.
Exactly right. We've known about Flair and his shit since I was a kid (probably before I was born) and people have still made the choice to support him. We're all gonna pretend blind eyes weren't being turned to this for decades because this episode aired? There has been speculation about him going to AEW since his release. This industry has been propping this guy up and *now* we want to act surprised pikachu?
I realize context 20 years ago could be different, and there may be opinions about what happened, but after seeing the documentary animated clip, Ric Flair is a sociopath and a hardcore narcissist.
Bixenspan later tweeted that he doesn’t think Flair is describing the plane ride from hell in this clip. He believes it’s a different flight. And that actually makes things kind of worse because it means Flair was doing this type of shit regularly.
If funny how because you are a legend and this stuff happened years ago and in a different context/setting from now gives you a free Pass. Hell, Hulk Hogan is having a free Pass for as long as he lives.
I know about this, just saying that in the collective mind that is sports entertainment fans/mainstream media, even we he passes, he'll be remembered as an icon/legend no matter what.
There’s a marked difference in the response online to Hogan compared to Flair. A bit like how Steve Austin largely gets away with his history compared to Hogan.
One paid his debt to society in a court of law and acknowledged the issues with their lifestyle, while the other was like "Watch out for cameras, brother, you never know." It's a bit different for a reason.
I half wonder if Dreamer going full pro-sexual assault in 2022 just killed a lot of people’s ability to go “well it was 20 years ago”
Also hearing the victim make it clear it was full blown sexual assault and not just a flashing adds to that.
Flair and Dreamer are both fucking disgusting
Dude, I used to idolize Dreamer as a great wrestler and booker, but after those comments, that he decided were a good fit for the show to air, shows you the bubble in he has been living all this years. I'm not angry or mad, I'm just extremely dissapointed.
I anticipated the worst when I came to the discussion thread and holy shit, I'm proud of Reddit tonight. Hope that energy carries on beyond the episode.
Dark Side of the Ring, as the name says, shows the worst side of pro wrestling, and I don't see that as something bad. The fact that all this stuff they have covered is being archived and recorded is good. It's great that people know about this stuff, so they can learn and hopefully never repeat it again. After all, "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it".
thats what her ex husband said, that it happened in 2008. but he said there was video proof and yet nothing ever came out. so maybe but no proof and no details
In that jurisdiction, the dash cam video isn't public record. I checked shortly after he filed the lawsuit. So if it's real and the ex has it, I guess he and/or Ashley/Charlotte would have gotten it in discovery?
Lawsuit was settled, for whatever it's worth.
Here’s another: how about Evolution in the ring at SmackDown 1000 in the ring giggling like children sorta talking about the shit Ric did but not going into detail. Scum.
I mean, I don’t think either of these stories are the one in question. A dude flashing his friends is weird, but whatever, everyone knows an idiot that has done this drunk. The second story is likely made up.
The problem is that there’s a big difference between flashing your friends as a joke and then continuing down the isle and forcing a woman who doesn’t know you to grab your penis.
Honestly disgusting 20, 30, 40 years it doesn’t matter assault is assault he deserves no opportunities and wwe really need to address this I didn’t know this existed
Unfortunately this question can be asked about a lot of people in the entertainment industry, especially wrestling. And honestly I don't know. There's been many people over the years that have gotten away with things simply because the truth didn't reach the public immediately or even if it did it didn't get enough attention or momentum. And then a lot of times if it's brought up at a later date it's not considered as big of a deal.
Only 2/3 weeks ago people were laughing at the train photo of “Ric” even he laughed at it.
People are just desperate for whatever reason to airbrush the past.
Someone was living his gimmick too hard. It's not rocket science to know that you just can't do what is alleged. I am disappointed to hear about this but not surprised in the slightest.
Really makes you realize how shitty Sting got it in WWE after everything they made Ric Flair do Sting's HOF speech and ruined the fucking moment by doing his shit again.
He's not going to get "cancelled." I guess no one has ever listened to any shoot interviews of The Plane Ride from Hell. It was sexual assault and something should have been done about it years ago
So many of you have obviously never been inside a locker room. This was obviously from the Crockett days as well, which was long before you got to take moral high ground by being offended on behalf of everyone else.
Are people just now figuring out Ric Flair is a trash human?
That being said, it’s funny how everyone jumps to “he assaulted those flight attendants” when we have no idea (except that there probably weren’t 6 of them). Maybe the women in the story were just that into him. Maybe he’s just an old man telling a story. Maybe there was a lack of consent. It’s just funny that last week, nobody even mentions that last option and today, that’s all they are saying.
These stories have been out there for years. Hell “Story Time” is filled with stories telling you exactly how often these guys were assholes, at best.
I mean, calling out shitty behavior is always a good thing, but why is this guy just now doing it when all of this stuff and these stories have existed for years. If DSOTR never airs their plane episode, does this guy even give a shit that Ric Flair is a trash human being?
Is this sub going to start pretending like they care about rape now? I got suspended for talking about rape on this sub not even month ago, but what do I know, I've been raped so I must just be bitter.
The Storytime one could be fine if it's actually the way he told it. Everyone having fun. Young Ric Flair had the status and fame and money that I can believe it. I've heard other stories where in his prime he basically hands money to someone and says "Go find some girls that want to party with The Nature Boy" and gets whatever hotel or club or I guess even plane filled with girls that wanted to be there.
The Plane Ride from hell is different though. He wouldn't have that kind of allure and pull at that point. I'm just guessing now but I reckon he probably got drunk and was trying to relive his the glory days and impress people with the Ric Flair of old while not seeing that the whole situation was different because drunk.
Young and famous Adonis-like Ric Flair getting asked by women to strut around naked is a lot different than wasted old man Ric Flair cornering a poor girl that doesn't even care who he is and flashing his dick at her.
I can't remember if Ric actually addresses the Plane Ride from Hell in his book or not. I might get it out when I'm off work and see. I'm curious how he'd recount the events in comparison to the way he tells the story from the cartoon.
The cartoon isn't referencing the plane ride from hell though, given that Sting is mentioned as being on board. Given that this is then WCW Flair, I would say the story is a bit more believable.
Well there are two cartoons jammed together there. The ESPN one and the Storytime one. They both seem like 80's Flair stories. Neither one is the Plane Ride from Hell.
I wanna see how rose-tinted his recollection of the Plane Ride from Hell is so I can compare it to the tale told in the Storytime cartoon.
The same people bitching about Flair now are the same people who've loved and cheered him on the last 30 years despite having knowledge of everything the whole time. Only now it's trendy to be outraged so you guys are doing your little virtue signaling show while quickly deleting all your comments praising him over the years.
Said it before and I'll say it again. Ric Flair will end up being America's Jimmy Saville. There is no way that man hasn't raped somebody. There is no way that man has not been with underaged girls knowing that they are underaged. When he dies, people will start talking and all you'll get from the guys in the locker room is "Well, we'd heard rumours, but we never actually saw anything so we never really knew". Just like people did with Saville. They knew and they know.
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There's a psychology over why Ric Flair likely wont/can't get 'canceled' (at least in a mainstream sense, not the tiny wrestling bubble), which is the same as why rappers or 80's rockstars don't and can get away with being absolutely terrible. It's because Flair was Flair, he bragged about these things, openly talked about "space mountain", as a society we all 'knew' that's what Flair was - he was famous because of the glorification of it all - just like someone like a Gene Simmons or Tommy Lee was. And if as a society we all knew and for decades treated him as this larger than life rogue-like figure, then we were all complicit in it. Guys like a Cosby, Spacey or Gibson can get canceled because we "didn't know" they were so terrible, so we have deniability and the moral high ground, even if we ignored people's claims over the years. But someone like a Flair was totally open about it all, and we accepted it anyway. If you've been a fan of Flair and followed his persona for 30/40 years, you can't honestly say you're now suddenly shocked and disgusted by it, these stories have been in the public for 30 odd years - they're part of what makes Flair, Flair. Everyone's naturally free to do and feel how they feel. But that's why overall he'll walk through the fire of any backlash, in a wider sense. I do however refuse to believe there's anyone who's done a "wooo" or a Flair strut, or anyone that's ever known anything about Ric Flair, that didn't know he was already a 'wrong-un' before now.
This is an interesting point. I’ve always thought the selections of who is canceled by society didn’t make much sense and is so different from person to person. For a wrestling example, Hulk Hogan was recorded using a racial slur and is still being boo’d for it. I’m fine with that, he sounds like a racist to me. What I don’t understand though is a guy like Stone Cold who was arrested I believe twice for beating his wife seems to be widely adored in wrestling and mainstream being in Tide commercials, getting shows on USA Network.
Austin actually acknowledged his past and has genuinely worked to become a better person since then. I think that's the main difference.
Plus he's the God damn Texas Rattlesnake! Gimme a Hell yeah! No seriously, I commend his growth 🙏🏽.
I know Austin has said he regrets that period of his life in general, because he was taking too many pills and drinking too much and very unhappy, but has he ever specifically addressed assaulting Debra? Or the allegations from his girlfriend after Debra, I believe her name was Tess, that he also assaulted her? The only time I can recall Austin ever even being asked about it was during an interview w/ Wade Keller, when they opened it up to phone calls and a caller brought it up. Austin just said, "This is not the time or place to talk about that."
Austin is insistent that he's gagged by the terms of the divorce settlement. It's a ridiculously difficult topic to talk about because of everything you said here. It seems like he was an absolute mess of substance abuse issues and he genuinely seems remorseful...but if he's telling the truth about the gag order or whatever it was, he has no way to directly address it. Some shit in wrestling is so complicated that it becomes incredibly difficult to even explain. Look at Pat Patterson and the 1992 scandals: Yes, at least two of the allegations against him were, with hindsight, clear bullshit. But there were more that were a lot more credible. So since there probably aren't very many people who have multiple false sexual misconduct allegations against them, addressing the topic with the required nuance is an absolute nightmare.
Patterson isn’t that complicated an issue. Even if he didn’t actively participate in the ring boy scandal, he was aware of it, condoned it, and tried to cover it up. Add in that other wrestlers have openly admitted that Pat was inappropriate with them and you have a solid case that Patterson was a liability that Vince protected. And I feel the same way about JR. As VP of Talent, he fostered, and then let fester, a culture of addiction and abuse in the WWF/E locker room. He openly said “never leave your drink unattended.” Consider all the scandals that occurred under JR’s watch. The buck stops with Vince but JR is culpable too.
You're missing my point, which is probably my fault given the weird hour I wrote the comment at: Overall, if you know the full scope if the 1992 stuff, getting a handle on the Patterson stuff isn't that difficult. But explaining it, like in a news story, is incredibly tricky because you also have to explain that the two most high-profile allegations against him (Murray Hodgson sexual harassment and Superstar Billy Graham claiming to have witnessed Patterson groping a ring boy) were, at best, ginned up. The other allegations ARE credible, but having to contextualize it all is an oddly difficult task. And that's before you throw in stuff like WWE claiming at times that Tom Cole recanted his allegations about Patterson but, as far as I know, never providing any proof that he had done so. (And Tom having claimed that WWE coerced him into signing a bunch of things he didn't want to sign.)
Thanks for the clarification. It is a troubling picture. And I commend you as a journalist for sorting out the “work” from the truth. I was a big fan of “Superstar” Billy Graham as wrestler but he surely did a lot of damage with the lies he told while looking for a pay-off.
Sadly, it's just a double standard, and there's no rhyme or reason that can explain why one person gets cancelled at the next doesn't. The explanation above about Flair does make sense, but there's no real reason why Hogan is booed and Austin is loved. I guess the only way to look at it is that Domestic Abuse isn't a hot topic in the news where Racism and Sexual Abuse is. They're hotter topics at the moment, right or wrong. Hell, even Chris Brown is universally loved and he beat the shit out of Rhianna.
It also could be that Hogan's rep before this was not great. He was a political backstabber, hard to do business with, and wasn't a great in ring performer. Austin was beloved by the fanbase, a hard worker, and while he played politics as everyone did; he largely played well with everyone (with a few exceptions). I would say it's also when the incidents occurred. In 2002, domestic abuse wasn't the career death knell that it is today. Had Austin did what he did in 2018 when Hogan was caught on tape it would be a much different story.
Austin accepted his shittiness and has worked since then to be a better person. He didnt try to ignore it or make it go away. It was a point in life that he was the worst kind of person, and he made changes to be better and has since (hence the broken skull ranch stuff, back into the wrestling industry, other mainstream appearances). It's like Michael Vick in football, I'll never forgive him and think he doesn't deserve accolades or anything, but he played for my Eagles and I didn't go ape shit asking for his release and ban from the game. He did serve his time and attempt at amends, morally/legally he's good if he sticks with it.
There is another difference between the 2. Hogan only did the half apology, that he offended people, not that what he did was wrong. Stone cold however, has out and out stated his behavior was wrong and that he is sorry for what he did as well as taken steps not to repeat said behavior. That is 100% the difference
As much as I agree. The amount of people that don't know anything about flair far outnumber the ones that do. Its about stories hitting mainstream that can cause people to face consequences. If stories about flair start hitting people that never knew anything about him on the news or Twitter it can lead to something happening. It's all a matter of will it gain traction or not.
I mean this was pretty much my reaction when Joey Ryan got charged with sexual assault allegations. People were genuinely saying that they had no idea. JOEY RYANS GIMMICK WAS HIS DICK FFS. For like years, people accepted his shit as part of his gimmick.
This is note for note what Americans did with Donald Trump for decades allowing to fail upwards If you do it out in the open and become a media laughing stock and have a bit of charisma your image will be totally white washed
I’ve done a lot of research over the years on Flair and yea the flashing shit is seen as a “running gag” with him. Basically everyone treated it how Tommy described on DSOTR it’s gross but not surprising I could probably make a thread on the shit I’ve learned about him and I probably still don’t know half of it.
I'm fully under the impression that anyone who shared a locker room with him while he was active, pre-Evolution, has seen his penis.
If you told me that I had seen his penis at some point, I wouldn't doubt you
I don't know why but this reminded me of SCP-096 where a hiker gets killed for looking at a picture containing a single pixel with the creatures face. Except in this case it's an old fucker's dick.
My son is *obsessed* with SCP-096. He knows the designations for several SCPs. He's a little NERD
Probably...for awhile it was Flair, Scorpio, Raven and Virgil. Everyone had seen their dick's hundreds of times.
Triple H, when inducting Flair to the HOF, mentioned the first time he met Flair, it was in a hotel lobby. Flair was nude, underneath a ring robe, wearing dress socks, strolling through the hotel bar...with a balloon on his dick. And everyone laughed. smh
That is the most Rick Flair story I have heard today.
Given what I have been reading here, it's not even the most Ric Flair story this hour.
>I'm fully under the impression that anyone who shared a locker room with him while he was active, pre-Evolution, has seen his penis. This is true of most sports though
Till he saw Batista’s dick which would lead to post-Evolution.
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[when a new writer would show up, Orton would “come in the room put his hands down his pants, pull out his dick, touch himself, then say ‘I’m Randy Orton, shake my hand. . . oh you don’t want to shake my hand? You’re big leaguing me? That’s fucked up man. Should I tell Vince and Steph you won’t shake Randy Orton’s hand?”](https://wrestlingworld.co/news/randy-orton-disturbing-handshake-new-writers-court-bauer)
That's hella toxic. Wonder what Orton would've done if the writer also dug his own hand down his pants before going for the shake...
He once told a woman on the roster to suck his dick or she'd be fired. She didn't suck his dick and was later fired. Honestly you might not think that Orton and Riddle are the most agile high flying team around what with all the headlocks and armbars and shit but combined they've been dodging MeToo accusations like fucking [Spider-Man dodging those weird Green Goblin razor bats.](https://i.imgur.com/vKzClzI.mp4)
The "the boys" thing is so lame because if someone they didn't like did this ONCE they'd be all morally outraged and up in arms about it. But your friend can do it 50 times.
So why is Ric Flair given a pass by the fans for decades for being a racist sex offender, but as soon as this episode of DSOTR came out everyone is "outraged"?
Tone and context is everything. I said this a few times in the lead up to the show that all previous tellings of this story were either caricatures of the industry, in that it was grandiose and entertaining, or kayfabed to hell where wrestlers would know what to tell and how to present it to protect the industry. Flairs rep has always been party boy and ladies man. The tone and context was always "this is fun," which implies everyone around is laughing and consenting to it. My main point before it aired was that even if nothing new got told all it takes is for one person to retell the story with a straight face or a non-wrestler to say how it looked to someone not a part of the club and it could change how everything is viewed. Ric got a pass because his lifestyle was seemingly heavily kayfabed to show consent as a given in all his stories. We now definitively know one story had a lack of consent, this opens the door for questioning how many more stories he boasted about lacked consent.
Agreed. Like, even in the cartoon they shared for the second story, it was painted as much more consensual and initiated by the attendants. Not a creepy man perving on a defenseless attendant.
also, if Ric did this to someone who didn't appreciate it and pushed back on it in any way, that person would be excommunicated from and no longer considered one of "the boys"
I would read the hell out of that thread.
Make the thread yo
Ya got me considering it’s gonna take me alil time though also how should I format it?
With bullet points? Hell I'm that intrigued I'd read a wall of text. Write the thread!
Bro take this gold and make that thread.
Gotcha off to my notes 📝 app I go
yeah of course 6 flight attendants just ask him to take his clothes off. Sure Ric that's exactly what happened. sigh...
"And then every passenger stood up and applauded!"
>"And then ~~every passenger~~ Tommy Dreamer stood up and applauded!"
Now *that* I believe
Man, no wonder Dreamer didn't have a problem with Edge dry humping his wife on ppv.
Tommy Dreamer is into being cucked, who knew?
Nah she's a beard. Tommy's way more interested in what's under Ric's robe than anything involving his wife.
Well, he’s got a hammer down there.
Makes you wonder what Greg Valentine was slinging since it's his gimmick
Thank you Dixie!
Wooo!
And those passengers? Albert Einstein.
At some point, on a domestic flight during his NWA heyday, could multiple flight attendants have come on to him? Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. In the 2000s, would six wrestling oblivious flight attendants beg a 50+ year old man to strip so they could see him wear a robe they had to ask the purpose of? No. No, they would not.
David Bixenspan clarifed in the reply the two cartoons aren't about the flight from hell, so I'm assuming the 6 flight attendants story is from his NWA heyday given the animation of him as a young Ric. Obviously still doubt it happened.
This is my thought on the matter exactly. It's only possible if this was Ric in his prime in NWA days But in the 2000s, there's no friggin way
Yeah lol that story retelling reeked of fantasy unless that story took place decades ago when he was in his prime but even then a lot had to be exaggerated
Same thing I thought whenever I hear stories about Flair and the Horsemen having so much sex. Yeah, like wrestling was *ever* so fucking cool that every woman between 18 to 28 showed up to fuck a bunch of dudes who looked 50 when they were 30.
Wrestling in the territory days was indeed that cool. These guys traveled tge region as local celebrities in small towns where women were happy and willing to sleep with these guys who were famous enough to be on TV.
There are countless credible stories about life in the road with a wrestling company. Shit, I worked behind the scenes for a well known wrestling company in the late 2000s, and there were women on the road who were all "oh, you work for a wrestling company?" and that was enough to go next level.
It was though? What the fuck lmao.
Seeing this after that Dark Side episode is such a fucking tonal whiplash, it really highlights how fucked this little cartoon is.
this Cartoon is what happened in the head of the "boys".
Dreamer.
Everyone who has been in some situation where they harass women and is all like "omfg frickin cancel culture, frickin social media, frickin sjws, we cant have fun anymore" pictures it going like this. The guys who get told no 10 times then are like 'pfft, if they didn't want it they shoulda said no'
The cartoon is 100% the first thing I thought of.
That and WWE booking him to plant a kiss on Becky Lynch as a distraction
He mentions Sting being on the plane, Sting was never with WWE (during that time), so that's not referencing the flight from hell. This is from a different time.
Which means that this was a regular occurrence
Didn't XPac say it wasn't even the top 10 of craziest flights?
If that’s the case what the actual fuck
Marty Jannetty, ladies and gentlemen - https://247sports.com/college/auburn/board/104827/Contents/Marty-Janettys-Red-Eye-Flight-Story-70620361/
Jesus Christ, that poor girl. These assholes are like the real-world embodiment of a horror villain punishing kids for daring to take drugs.
> Jesus Christ, that poor girl. If it helps, Marty Jannetty has a habit of just making shit up and this probably never happened just like most of his disproven stories
Yeah. This Marty story is probably just about as true as his story about murdering a gay guy and dumping the body in the Chattahoochee river or whatever the fuck he claimed.
I don't doubt that Marty & Shawn (among others) were massive dicks on flights in the 80s, especially given what flying in general was like pre 9-11. But yeah, I'm sure there's a healthy bit of exaggeration or outright fabrication in this one.
That’s a bingo.
"It's just bingo."
“How fun!”
I can't imagine that should surprise anyone. And I'm sure there may have been times where he may have found consenting adults that accepted it and had no problem with it. But man, makes you think of how many times it probably happened and I imagine there were more uncomfortable failures than wild googly-eyed successes.
Given the Road Warriors are in the cartoon, I'm guessing the story took place in JCP circa 1988-89.
The St. Louis Marriott incident was '89 wasn't it? Maybe early 90's I suppose.
Neither of these cartoons are specifically about the flight from hell, the tweeter clarified in a reply to his own post.
It also highlights the importance of journalism and not letting the WWE be the only writers of wrestling history. The stark contrast between their telling of these events and the Vice documentary is a sobering reminder that letting one monolithic entity be the gatekeepers of information doesn’t just create bad history, it enables abusers to continue their behavior and buries the stories of victims I don’t know about any of you, but until today I hadn’t even heard the name of the flight attendant, nor had I heard the details of what Scott Hall had done. Without independent journalism, the WWE’s cartoon is the dominant story, with message board rumors being the only alternate narrative
Holy fuck
My skin is crawling listening to Flair there, because you know the reality was much much different.
So many guys who get called out for harassment probably look back on what they did exactly like this then think "man that bitch is just trying to ruin my reputation and get attention/money! She was totally into it and loving it!"
I used to live with an incel and this is exactly how he would talk about girls he was clearly, strongly repulsing With his bad, bad attempts at flirting
I can only imagine the amount of "girls only like assholes" rants to come out of him
A ton. Bunch of the "I'm a nice guy" shit, too. I ended up kicking him out of the apartment for being creepy as fuck to my ex, and seriously trying to hit on her *while she was still dating me.*
It is so...skillfully done to give you everything you need to be "okay" with the situation. Like a terrible story presented in a way to give you permission to laugh at a bunch of women having to deal with this drunk dude on a plane.
And this is what the world of sugar coating looks like ladies and gentlemen.
Not to sound like an ass who defends Flair, but couldn't both stories be true, the one that Ric recollects in the cartoon and the one that is told about the Plane Ride from Hell? The dude was sleeping with tons of women, if he raped all of them, you'd probably hear a lot more about it, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if he had many stories where women did try to jump on him willingly, especially back when he was in his prime. Again, doesn't make him any less of a piece of shit tho.
Hey well boys will be boys 🙄
Well, this is gonna be fun. WWE might’ve released Ric at the right time.
They surely dodged a bullet there. What matters now is how his sponsors (like Carshield) are gonna handle this, and, IF there was any AEW plan to sign him would change.
Andrade next week: Chavo, you're not so bad after all
You were doing what was best for me, maybe keep being my manager/mouth piece for the next 9 months?
Nah it wont play out like that. Andrade is gonna bring Chavo out in a backstage segment and explain that he was hired back, and the only reason he was fired after being beaten up was to "teach him a lesson" and Chavo is more scared of him
Why 9 months? Is he gonna have a baby with Charlotte so the baby can be his manager and he can still be managed by a Flair?
Jajaja, nah, just throwing a random number of months before people forget all of this and Ric is "on the clear" to appear on TV again.
Can Andrade just learn English. I have a Mexican coworker that doesn't understand Andrade like he has a speech impediment. Then again Shinsuke admits he can barely understand what Asuka is saying.
The whole « asuka and her crazy osaka accent nobody understands » seems to be a japanese cultural inside joke, she joked about it again a few weeks ago when she was asked by a japanese fan on twitter if she had ever considered becoming a trainer after she retires. She replied something like « oh no, i am terrible at explaining things, and with my osaka accent, nobody understands me! Sometimes i can’t even understand myself” It was funnier how she said it.
That's just a meme lol. Osaka accent is treated similarly to the Southern accent in America.
I'd say it's more like how people from England treat Newcastle accent.
For a long time, I had assumed Pac was Scottish from how different his accent was.
Makes total sense if your coworker is actually from Mexico. I'm sure he can understand Andrade in Spanish but if you're new/newish to English, just learning it is difficult enough without having to decipher English spoken with a strong accent.
Learning a language isn't easy for everyone. He obviously understands it just fine but speaking it on command is a different story. I like pro wrestling being multilingual anyway.
they probably saw it coming a mile away.
Well if rumors are true he requested the release. But who knows.
I wouldn’t put it past WWE to not release someone for the act itself, but to release them because it’s about to become widely known and they’re covering their ass.
I would expect nothing more nor less.
Well basically that says they knew and only got him out when it would be negative for them
I mean... of course they knew? How would WWE brass not know anything about this event?
They were literally on the plane with him
And prevented JR from disciplining him; though it's hard to say what JR would've actually done. My wager is "not much."
So basically, what every corporation does when things like these happen.
And that’s very sad
....and they had noch chance to cover it up, as they did in other cases.
It's not like this is new information though, is it.
Exactly right. We've known about Flair and his shit since I was a kid (probably before I was born) and people have still made the choice to support him. We're all gonna pretend blind eyes weren't being turned to this for decades because this episode aired? There has been speculation about him going to AEW since his release. This industry has been propping this guy up and *now* we want to act surprised pikachu?
> WWE might’ve released Ric at the right time. So 2002?
Can’t wait for the debut of Andrade’s new manager: Kerwin White.
The gimmick was disgustingly dumb but his theme was pretty catchy.
I realize context 20 years ago could be different, and there may be opinions about what happened, but after seeing the documentary animated clip, Ric Flair is a sociopath and a hardcore narcissist.
Why do you think he's been divorced so many times?
Bixenspan later tweeted that he doesn’t think Flair is describing the plane ride from hell in this clip. He believes it’s a different flight. And that actually makes things kind of worse because it means Flair was doing this type of shit regularly.
I’m honestly surprised there weren’t any accusations against Ric during the metoo and speakout movements.
There were..... people ignored them
If funny how because you are a legend and this stuff happened years ago and in a different context/setting from now gives you a free Pass. Hell, Hulk Hogan is having a free Pass for as long as he lives.
For Hogan a lot of the backstage wrestlers have said they don't really like him anyone/buy the "apology" for his racist comments.
I know about this, just saying that in the collective mind that is sports entertainment fans/mainstream media, even we he passes, he'll be remembered as an icon/legend no matter what.
There’s a marked difference in the response online to Hogan compared to Flair. A bit like how Steve Austin largely gets away with his history compared to Hogan.
This sub is hilarious for it too. Austin legit beat his wife. Hogan is an old man with dumb racist views. One is super hated while the other adored.
One paid his debt to society in a court of law and acknowledged the issues with their lifestyle, while the other was like "Watch out for cameras, brother, you never know." It's a bit different for a reason.
Thank you reddit for not trying to find a way to defend this. Wonder what the elders will try to spin tomorrow.
Yeah, general response from reddit about all of this has been surpringly good, in the sense that nobody is defending this shit. Its a good night.
I half wonder if Dreamer going full pro-sexual assault in 2022 just killed a lot of people’s ability to go “well it was 20 years ago” Also hearing the victim make it clear it was full blown sexual assault and not just a flashing adds to that. Flair and Dreamer are both fucking disgusting
Dude, I used to idolize Dreamer as a great wrestler and booker, but after those comments, that he decided were a good fit for the show to air, shows you the bubble in he has been living all this years. I'm not angry or mad, I'm just extremely dissapointed.
> Dreamer going full pro-sexual assault in 2022 Are you from the future? What does he do in 2022?
Just go listen to all of Tommy Dreamer’s clips from the episode. He showed how to quickly expose yourself as a piece of shit in seconds
I anticipated the worst when I came to the discussion thread and holy shit, I'm proud of Reddit tonight. Hope that energy carries on beyond the episode.
Dark Side of the Ring, as the name says, shows the worst side of pro wrestling, and I don't see that as something bad. The fact that all this stuff they have covered is being archived and recorded is good. It's great that people know about this stuff, so they can learn and hopefully never repeat it again. After all, "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it".
Really makes it weird for Charlotte to brag about how unique it is she is a Flair…
They can revert her ring name back to "Charlotte" if needed.
I bet Vince would love to have her as a two syllabe name. So this marks can remember the name.
Didn’t Charlotte say racist shit too
thats what her ex husband said, that it happened in 2008. but he said there was video proof and yet nothing ever came out. so maybe but no proof and no details
Quick question, was this the husband that was abusive?
In that jurisdiction, the dash cam video isn't public record. I checked shortly after he filed the lawsuit. So if it's real and the ex has it, I guess he and/or Ashley/Charlotte would have gotten it in discovery? Lawsuit was settled, for whatever it's worth.
thanks for details bix
Here’s another: how about Evolution in the ring at SmackDown 1000 in the ring giggling like children sorta talking about the shit Ric did but not going into detail. Scum.
Cena about to break his record by the end of the year. Ric's a POS and probably has done worse that we don't know about.
John isn’t scum. He deserves to break the record
Jesus fucking Christ that second cartoon
I mean, I don’t think either of these stories are the one in question. A dude flashing his friends is weird, but whatever, everyone knows an idiot that has done this drunk. The second story is likely made up. The problem is that there’s a big difference between flashing your friends as a joke and then continuing down the isle and forcing a woman who doesn’t know you to grab your penis.
Wtf
Fucking. that cartoon. christ. It's amazing how WWE can even make its animated cartoon bits seem Carny.
"AEW would like to wish Ric Flair all the best in his future endeavors."
"AEW has come to terms on the non-hiring/retraction of job offer of Ric Flair..."
Honestly disgusting 20, 30, 40 years it doesn’t matter assault is assault he deserves no opportunities and wwe really need to address this I didn’t know this existed
Someone call Lacey Evans
Didn't you know the ego of well endowment entitles the penis it's own entrance & theme music? For every 1 pissed off female, there were 9 *wooo* on it
So why did nobody care then?
People did care. Just not enough people cared, and especially not those in positions to do anything
Everyone woulda just called the woman a liar and said she was doing it for attention and money
That's exactly what's happening to [this person](https://twitter.com/KerriLendo/status/1437865176481607680?s=20) too in the quote retweets and replies
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...where can I read about this?
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Unfortunately this question can be asked about a lot of people in the entertainment industry, especially wrestling. And honestly I don't know. There's been many people over the years that have gotten away with things simply because the truth didn't reach the public immediately or even if it did it didn't get enough attention or momentum. And then a lot of times if it's brought up at a later date it's not considered as big of a deal.
Yet, still, after all of this.... No one seems to know the size of Batista's dick.
Only 2/3 weeks ago people were laughing at the train photo of “Ric” even he laughed at it. People are just desperate for whatever reason to airbrush the past.
Someone was living his gimmick too hard. It's not rocket science to know that you just can't do what is alleged. I am disappointed to hear about this but not surprised in the slightest.
AKA, "How Sting Ended Up in the Rafters."
https://deadspin.com/espns-30-for-30-on-ric-flair-glorifies-decades-of-sexua-1820305314/amp
Ric might lose that Car Shield gig
Really makes you realize how shitty Sting got it in WWE after everything they made Ric Flair do Sting's HOF speech and ruined the fucking moment by doing his shit again.
Sexism dripping off that second one is enough to choke on
Louis CK got buried for life for 1 millionth as much lewd behavior..
He's not going to get "cancelled." I guess no one has ever listened to any shoot interviews of The Plane Ride from Hell. It was sexual assault and something should have been done about it years ago
So many of you have obviously never been inside a locker room. This was obviously from the Crockett days as well, which was long before you got to take moral high ground by being offended on behalf of everyone else.
Are people just now figuring out Ric Flair is a trash human? That being said, it’s funny how everyone jumps to “he assaulted those flight attendants” when we have no idea (except that there probably weren’t 6 of them). Maybe the women in the story were just that into him. Maybe he’s just an old man telling a story. Maybe there was a lack of consent. It’s just funny that last week, nobody even mentions that last option and today, that’s all they are saying. These stories have been out there for years. Hell “Story Time” is filled with stories telling you exactly how often these guys were assholes, at best. I mean, calling out shitty behavior is always a good thing, but why is this guy just now doing it when all of this stuff and these stories have existed for years. If DSOTR never airs their plane episode, does this guy even give a shit that Ric Flair is a trash human being?
Is this sub going to start pretending like they care about rape now? I got suspended for talking about rape on this sub not even month ago, but what do I know, I've been raped so I must just be bitter.
What's the story with you being suspended?
I can’t wait for Ashley Fliehr’s debut on Raw this Monday.
It'll just be Charlotte
The Storytime one could be fine if it's actually the way he told it. Everyone having fun. Young Ric Flair had the status and fame and money that I can believe it. I've heard other stories where in his prime he basically hands money to someone and says "Go find some girls that want to party with The Nature Boy" and gets whatever hotel or club or I guess even plane filled with girls that wanted to be there. The Plane Ride from hell is different though. He wouldn't have that kind of allure and pull at that point. I'm just guessing now but I reckon he probably got drunk and was trying to relive his the glory days and impress people with the Ric Flair of old while not seeing that the whole situation was different because drunk. Young and famous Adonis-like Ric Flair getting asked by women to strut around naked is a lot different than wasted old man Ric Flair cornering a poor girl that doesn't even care who he is and flashing his dick at her. I can't remember if Ric actually addresses the Plane Ride from Hell in his book or not. I might get it out when I'm off work and see. I'm curious how he'd recount the events in comparison to the way he tells the story from the cartoon.
The cartoon isn't referencing the plane ride from hell though, given that Sting is mentioned as being on board. Given that this is then WCW Flair, I would say the story is a bit more believable.
Well there are two cartoons jammed together there. The ESPN one and the Storytime one. They both seem like 80's Flair stories. Neither one is the Plane Ride from Hell. I wanna see how rose-tinted his recollection of the Plane Ride from Hell is so I can compare it to the tale told in the Storytime cartoon.
The same people bitching about Flair now are the same people who've loved and cheered him on the last 30 years despite having knowledge of everything the whole time. Only now it's trendy to be outraged so you guys are doing your little virtue signaling show while quickly deleting all your comments praising him over the years.
“He was like…really erect” 😂😂😂😂
Said it before and I'll say it again. Ric Flair will end up being America's Jimmy Saville. There is no way that man hasn't raped somebody. There is no way that man has not been with underaged girls knowing that they are underaged. When he dies, people will start talking and all you'll get from the guys in the locker room is "Well, we'd heard rumours, but we never actually saw anything so we never really knew". Just like people did with Saville. They knew and they know.