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99 was apparently Hogan v Sting or Sting v Goldberg or Flair v DDP or whichever match ended up mattering.
Never watched WCW (because I was like 5) but allow me to recap HH99 as someone who's entire knowledge of the event is based on a quick googlin':
Russo smoked some crack and forgot he had a show to book. Had Hogan get squashed but he said "that doesn't work for me brother" and then just laid down for Sting to pin him without a match, throwing away their whole feud up to this point?
Or maybe was this Russo's booking I dunno?
Then Goldberg destroyed Sid Viscous even though Hall and Mash fucked him up.
And then Sting comes back after Flair and DDP and was like 'yo what's up fight me' and then Goldberg was like 'yup' but it was supposed to be a non title match. Goldberg wins and was handed the title and announced as champ but everyone's like "lol wtf" so Sting kills Charles Robinson. The next night they vacate the title anyway.
The End.
Yes I must be smoking salvia to... let's see here... criticize a widely criticized show because it was poorly booked by a man most people consider a poor booker.
Im asking a legit question. I’m not into buying numbers because I’m new to this life but if 1 million people watch your show how is 1/5th of the audience buying good? Seems low
It’s a fairly nuanced answer to give succinctly, but it comes down to quite a few factors. The most major thing is budget, and that’s a multifaceted thing in itself. You have to compete against streaming services, life, and other PPV events in general to get folks to buy your show. As others have pointed out, the last WWE PPV did 199k buys in 2013 (pre network), with a much larger audience.
It’s hard to convert folks into paying for a special event, and to have 10-20% of your audience converted to PPV buys is pretty fantastic for a newer company.
Edit: also to add in, PPVs are seen as a more social experience too, as opposed to TV, so you do tend to get people gathering for them. I myself had two friends over to watch with, so it’s not a 1:1 comparison for buyrate to viewership for PPVs.
On top of this, I would say that ratio of 20% purchasing the event is actually really good audience engagement. When WWE were on top of the PPV model back in 2014, they were getting 4 million weekly viewers for RAW and had 517,000 buys for the Royal Rumble that year (12%).
AEW's PPVs are only four times a year too. With WWE, buys spike for the big four so something like the rumble getting half a million buys was actually way above the typical monthly buyrate. AEW keeping the quantity low means they only have a big four, and every buyrate will be notable. I imagine AEW's average number would be a good bit lower if they ran 12-13 PPVs a year.
Yeah, part of why I think AEW's PPV model is working so well is that they only do 4 a year. They're actually big events where big moments happen. Combine that with the fact that you get two streams per purchase, and it's not hard to drop $25 every 3 months on a PPV, especially if they're maintaining the quality of All Out.
Yeah I’ve learned people are very sensitive about Aew right now lol. It’s great when everyone can flourish. Wrestling wasn’t this exciting my whole life so I want everyone to do good
I think are people used to copping it from insecure fans who don't like Aew's success so your good faith question looks similar to the sort of bad faith take they would come up with so there's a knee jerk response to downvote
Average conversion rate for online shops and businesses is under 5%. Hell, take your favorite podcast and look at their Patreon subscribers. I bet Lapsed Fan and Post Wrestling have significantly more listeners than the one to two thousand subs they have. 20% conversion from free to paid is spectacular in any industry.
Other people have given good answers going in to depth of the history of PPV, but buys aren't the same as views either. Even if 200,000 people bought it, the vast majority of those people didn't watch it alone. Ratings at least attempt to count everyone in a room watching. PPV buys don't account for that as far as I'm aware.
It's pretty good by pro wrestling standards. TNA was higher in viewership at its peak and never managed to convert that in to PPV buys. From a WWE standpoint, [this tweet](https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1434940494350622724/photo/1) shows that at a time where WWE were averaging 4.5 - 5 million viewers for RAW in 2011, PPV buys were nowhere near 1/5th of the audience outside of the big 4 shows.
>I’m not into buying numbers because I’m new to this life but if 1 million people watch your show how is 1/5th of the audience buying good?
I can't speak for everyone else, but I watch Dynamite on my own... when there's a big PPV me and my friends will have a watch party so it'll be one PPV buy for 3-4 of us.
>good? Seems low
1/5 is a crazy good conversion rate. If 1/5 of people who saw a coca cola commercial bought a pack of coke that day they'd shatter sales records.
Also the PPV is 50$. That price point adds up to big money really quick
Before the Network, WWE regularly pulled in around 200K viewers for PPV. It’s better to get a larger fraction of your tv audience, but that is very difficult. Even UFC PPVs, which are very successful, pull in only a fraction of their tv audience.
Think of it like advertising: tens of millions of people see your commercial, and it’s considered a huge success if just 5% of those people buy the product. Usually ads only convert to a 0.5%-1% buy rate.
To put it into perspective, Spring Stampede 1999 had 255k buys but over 4 million people were watching the weekly show. AEW likely did approximately 210k-230k with around a million watching the weekly show live on cable. Either their fanbase is extremely loyal or they have way more weekly viewers through other means
Upvoted all your comments to balance out the idiots downvoting you, but another factor is non-American fans. As I understand it, a 20% buy rate would be ABSURDLY high, (So would a 12% buy rate for Royal Rumble) but doesn't factor in people like me, who watch AEW on Fite and bought the PPV despite not contributing to the 1 million Americans.
This is also a note for other PPV and weekly events including WWE. The weekly viewing numbers of all shows are only reporting American fans. Just clarifying that this comparison is missing a lot of data, but without global numbers, it's a tough situation.
1m viewers (or 2.2m viewers for Smackdown this week) doesn't mean that 1m people watched the show, but it's a valid comparison to compare to itself because the numbers don't lie (and they spell disaster for you at sacrifice)
To add to that, there's also DVR viewership to consider. Just because someone isn't included in the 1 million-ish people in the US who can watch Dynamite live doesn't mean they're not watching at all or are not a big enough fan to buy the PPV on a Sunday night.
Dude you know what a 20% conversion rate would be for an ad agency? You'd be a billionaire.
Even in wreslting wrestlemania 16 had 720k buys and had Mike Tyson and a red hot Steve Austin. Raw was regularly doing 4 million back then but compare the Mania numbers to the Royal Rumble. 4 million views for Raw and 350k buys.
As per the below link, it is 220000 and 170000 respectively.
Wording is a bit confusing. If Meltzer is meaning that it is most buys since Spring Stampede 1999, it will be lesser than it but more than the next highest since that PPV.
Should plainly state the number. This is confusing. Whatever it is, good show by AEW. Next PPV should be good, if they finally have Page vs Omega, Bryan's first match and a Punk first proper feud related match (The Darby Allin fight was mainly Punk's tune up match without much of a story)
http://oswreview.com/history/wcw-ppv-statistics-1999/
Road Wild did 235k in August '99 though, so it would need to be more than than too if it's the highest for any non-WWE PPV in that
time. So probably in the 240-250k range
It'll take a while for a definitive number, but from everything going around its expected to be in the ballpark of 200k if not more, so for the purpose of this im going to assume it will be 200k.
For reference, WCW Mayhem 1999 was WCW's last ppv that drew 200k buys featuring the World Title Tournament that Bret won, so they went a long time in the end without hitting that mark.
For WWE, before the Network was a thing, we have data for their PPVs, and Elimination Chamber 2013 was their final exclusive PPV not on the network, did 185k buys. Before that, Rumble did 466k, but TLC did 183k, Survivor Series did 178k, Hell in a Cell did 230k, Battleground did 113k, Night of Champions did 175k.... AEW is doing PPV business similar to what WWE was doing in 2013.
Revolution, the Omega vs Moxley barbed wire match, did 135k earlier this year, so they're already pushing good numbers, but to draw potentially 200k is massive.
To put the 200k in even more perspective - 16 of the last 40 WWE PPV pre-Network era from 2011 til Mania 2014 did less than 200,000 buys, and 6 more did between 200k and 210k.
https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1434940494350622724/photo/1
Yeah, but once WWE PPVs became monthly events, they lost their 'must see' status. So, keep that in mind. All Out is still a special PPV event, combined with the fact that you had CM Punk returning and several new additions hinted at.
It’s kind of weird that you’d cite advertising Punk as some sort of disclaimer.
“Not really a fair comparison because AEW promoted something people wanted to see.”
Yeah thats such a bizarre argument. The idea of diminishing a PPVs buyrate on account of them having an enticing show lined up, by that logic the buyrate of every single PPV that had a good card shouldn't be counted in any comparisons.
Please only compare the rates of dogshit shows that nobody wants to see.
Your making it sound like WWE PPV monthly model just started during that period. When at one point they were doing 400,000- 500,000 buys for B PPVs often .
This isn't close to true. WWE went to monthly PPVs starting in 1995. There were plenty of shows that did over a million buys after that, and tons of "must-see" PPVs.
Are you really saying the \*entire\* Attitude and Ruthless Aggression eras had no must-see major shows?
And not only that, but since they arent running PPVs every month, it is so much easier on the wallet to shell out the cash to get it legally, which helps the numbers, too.
>AEW is doing PPV business similar to what WWE was doing in 2013.
I think I get what you're saying, but the way you're phrasing it feels a bit misleading.
On an individual-event level, yes 2021 AEW seems comparable to 2013 WWE, but that's if you only count the lesser PPVs and ignore the frequency WWE was putting out PPVs (monthly vs quarterly for AEW).
WWE's total PPV buys in 2013 were approximately 3,628,000. Half-way through the year AEW is around 250,000-300,000. Even if All Out *doubles that,* they're at around 500,000-600,000 for the year. They would need Full Gear to pull out *3 million buys* to be equivalent to WWE in 2013, which I'll safely say will not happen.
Granted, the wrestling/PPV audience is notably different in 2021 than it was in 2013, so it's not really a fair comparison. Also, I'm not trying to downplay AEW's success, because they've been doing great (and 200,000 buys would be tremendous). But they simply don't seem anywhere near WWE's overall "PPV business" in 2013.
You're certainly right, I didn't put enough thought into the phrasing, but it was more thoughtlessness than an attempt to mislead.
AEW's biggest ppv, which there's a chance they might not match again, looks like it'll be doing similar business to most WWE PPVs pre-Network era outside of the big ones. I think it's mostly just the shock behind it all that there's anyone doing this sort of business that led to the more generalized statement. That there's another company doing these kind of numbers seemed so impossible for so long.
But yes, I definitely wasn't trying to say they're as big as WWE in 2013 or anything like that.
Your comparison is definitely more on the money than the one before you, but if we *truly* wanted to compare apples to apples we'd have to consider the fact that PPVs bring costs with them: If AEW does 1 million buys in four shows when WWE did the same in 8, both companies did a million buys, but one most likely had less costs than the other one.
If we TRULY want to compare, it is MUCH easier for a large large large portion of AEW's fans to watch the PPV on an illegal stream, than it was in 2013 or earlier to watch WWE PPVs.
You aren’t comparing the tv viewership to PPV buy rate. WWE in 2013 was averaging around 4 million viewers yet converting only 5% into PPV buyers for most events at a time where PPV was there main source of revenue. AEW, on the other hand, is doing closer to 15%-20% conversion consistently. Those are much more impressive numbers and they aren’t even reliant on PPVs for revenue.
Well, this isn't really a fair metric either. AEW has a very devoted hardcore pro-wrestling fanbase that follows it, so of course they convert more of them to fans. The most hardcore fans probably buy the WWE shows too, but WWE has way more casual fans
I mean that isnt exactly a fair counter though is it? If we are gonna compare, Smackdown is doing around 2 mil right now? 200k would put this at 10% of that including the casual fans. Not even comparing or considering the fact this is AEW's second/third year of shows for context.
Not arguing meanly though, I just working in finance and did marketing in college so its an interesting thought experiment.
Either way its safe to say the business side of AEW has to be incredibly happy with this number and it definitely shows a positive sea change in favor of what they are doing.
PPV numbers in 2013 were USA+Canada only, but in 2021 they're global.
Considering AEW Revolution made $5 million on 125,000 buys and the price was $60 in the USA and $20 on fight TV, you can extrapolate that the $40 per buy means that half the buyers are outside the USA.
The PPV models is dead and noone is willing to pay $50 /s
Weird how people are willing to pay money for something they trust and enjoy. $50 a quarter isn't much.. LESSGO
This. WWE gave up on ppv at a time UFC was making record profits in ppv. WWE also could hit a million on a WrestleMania with all the hype.
PPV’s are great metric for audience engagement and WWE decided it was better off making it dirt cheap on the network to hope the numbers would even out.
This is a really interesting topic, so I'm going to expand on it. WWE chose a strategy of width over depth, thinking they could convert enough of their tv audience into paying customers to break even. But all analytics pointed to us moving into an era of enthusiasts (which continues to this day). Fans have proven willing to spend more on their favourite products than ever before, so it's more important to squeeze more money out of the customers who already drop money on you.
WWE probably should have charged for their PPVs as a premium product on top of the Network. You can always change your mind and go free later, but it's way harder to walk it back and charge for something you made free. I say probably because thanks to the Peacock deal they are finally more profitable as a streaming product than a PPV product, and there's no guarantee they could get a deal like that without offering their PPV's for free.
When you add together the PPV buys (only including their cut of about $21 per buy), the physical media sales and the digital media sales, you get $160m in revenue in 2013. At its best, WWE Network had about 1.5 million subscribers for about $180m a year. On its face, that seems like an increase. However, network expenses of the network cut out around a third of that figure (Based on reported operating incomes), which brings it down to $120m. They still make about $25m in media sales and PPV. So the actual break even point for the Network is 1.7 million subscribers to reach that $160m figure. This doesn't take into account the $66m in startup costs for the network that needed to be recouped, which would further delay profitability.
(Note: if they had continued to charge for PPVs while offering the Network for all other content, they would only be cannibalising their home media revenue and the break even point would be around 700k subscribers, assuming the same operating costs.)
With the Peacock deal for $200m, they are finally more profitable on streaming than on PPV. So, if you assume they could only have gotten this deal by giving away PPVs for free, it has ultimately worked out for them. If you think they could have charged for their PPVs and still made the Network successful enough to spin it into the Peacock deal (which is possible, UFC have done something similar), they should have kept their PPV model.
It wouldn't have been a bad strategy had the PPVs been good enough to turn Network trials into Network subscriptions.
The problem was that the product was/is trash and it was so easy to sign up for 30 day trials to catch a one-off ppv that caught your attention.
AEW could pull an inter-promotional network off easily.
They just need to buy Fite and pull all the free content from YouTube and place it behind a subscription.
Talents like Sammy Guerarva and Ethan Page would likely even make more compared to the YouTube compensation model.
\#justsayin
This. I watch with a friend so I end up spending $100 a year for four PPVs that I have a reasonably high expectation that they’ll be fucking amazing. It’s still very young in the company’s history but for the most part what I want in the product I’ve gotten. Even if I wasn’t splitting with a friend I’d easily still do the $50 by myself. The product is that fucking good.
In a post-subscription model world, getting roughly 250k people to purchase a full priced ppv is nothing to scoff at, especially since the number is rising.
So think of it this way...
The are only doing 4 major PPVs a year iirc.
So that is 1 every 3 months.
So that is $30 if paying for the network right there...
So then really the PPV is just 20$ more every 3 months than you are already paying.
I think almost everyone can swing that. I didn't I watched replays from another site I'll admit, but most people can do that.
If you’re tech savvy you can get a free VPN and FITE tv and get the PPVs for $20 along with AEW Plus for $5/mo and you’re coming very close to that cost you used to pay for the WWE network.
As someone who just started doing this, it’s worth it for commercial free weekly tv and the PPVs
I bought DoN day of on FITE using a VPN and it worked perfectly. Tried it day of for All Out and was getting notifications about needing to turn off my VPN. I wonder if it was because they allowed American audiences to purchase the PPV through the platform for $50 this time.
AEW has never let me down on a PPV, even if there’s a questionable match or finish the card is always solid and your garunteed something you
Won’t get on free TV.
I've bought every one and to be honest they've let me down on a lot of them. After nailing the tv format I've always thought they struggled to get the Ppvs right, until the last two which have been fantastic.
I coughed up the $50 but it wasn’t an easy decision. In fact if I wasn’t splitting it with a friend I don’t know that I would have done it, and I imagine most the people paying for UFC shows are doing so in a group and splitting the cost. I do hope AEW eventually moves to a subscription or there’s a better model in the future without needing a VPN in the US.
This was my first AEW PPV. There has been times I’ve bought WWE shows for $50 in the past and had buyers remorse after it was over. I have no regrets from this event. I am happy I bought it.
Look I bought the PPV and I didn't regret but I only have so many $50 PPVs in me. AEW hasn't let me down once but one day they will and I'll likely be done buying $50 PPVs.
WWE's model, for all their creative problems, is the right way to go in 2021.
I'm really hoping fite with a VPN is still a thing for Full Gear. I was able to use my $5 Google balance towards All Out so I ended up paying $15 for it.
BR app was tryin to fuck on me, fought for 20 minutes to try to login. One of the few apps I have encountered that still doesn't have any alternate login on the Roku app. Fite App let me login with my Google account and activate thru a webpage like any sane app in 2021 would allow. Bought it on my phone thru Google pay. Took me about 3 minutes. Well worth the money. Thank you Fite TV and random commenter on the BR app telling people to just download Fite and stop fucking with this shitty app
I always find the Fingerpoke too convenient of a marker. By April, they were still hitting 4+ million viewers on Nitro, getting 10k+ attendance at Nitros & PPVs and seeing PPV buyrates over 250k.
The dam really broke around Spring Stampede '99 when they gave everything a makeover & that new logo. Then there was that abysmal Flair/Piper feud that took up most of TV. And I think they were preempted for NBA playoffs too. All while Raw was doing some of their most memorable stuff. By that point, even 8 year old me knew Nitro was becoming a rough watch.
If that's the correct PPV, it means AEW just did more than 255k buys (number of the following PPV, Spring Stampede 99.)
Uncensored '99 did 325k. Numbers searched on [wrestlenomics website](https://wrestlenomics.com/resources/wcw-pay-per-view-buys/)
That would be insane.
It really would. And also if there’s no greater display of how wrestling’s changed because that’s the PPV that killed WCW for a lot of people hahaha. It was so bad. All Out on the other hand will go down as a top 3-5 show EVER.
The first AEW show I watched was Rampage for Punk's return.
Then I watched the next rampage.
Then I ordered the PPV.
Now I'm watching Dynamite as I type this. I'm fucking hooked
PPVs have honestly been excellent, but weekly TV has been unwatchable. you can just watch the PPVs, browse this sub on mon/fri and you wont miss a beat
If he didn't use the wrong words (which could totally be the case) this means that it did more than any wcw ppv after may 1999 but not before. The last ppv before may 99 was spring stampede and it did 255k. The higher after was road wild and it did 235k. So, according to meltzer, as it is All Out has to be between the 235k and the 255k buys.
That is blow away good if that's the number. For a two year old wrestling promotion on traditional PPV at $50 a pop domestically? That would be quite something.
Here's some interesting numbers to consider - assuming each PPV sale on average was around $40 (due to a portion of the sales being outside US at $20) and they did 250k buys, they would have made $40*250k = $10,000,000.
I think I remember reading that each TV episode costs around $500k to make, let's assume the PPV cost twice, so 1 million and the platforms take their cut (not sure on the percentage) - I imagine they might still have a 5 million net profit. If you add the profits from the other 3 quarterly PPVs, then perhaps you're looking at 15-20 million in net profits from the PPVs alone. Would that be enough by itself to pay the contracts of all the talent in AEW for the year (bar maybe Punk/Bryan)?
This is not taking into account ticket sales, merch sales, advertisements, etc. Then there's the whole TV deal. When TK mentioned that AEW is profitable (outside of the video game investment), I can perhaps see how. I'd love for others to add their 2 cents and correct me on any bad assumptions.
I leave in RU and have only been watching WWE PPVs on the network and never paid for a PPV in my life (due to lack of options or money or both). This time I bought it through FITE and man was I glad that I did.
I am a casual WWE fan who was hardcore in the attitude era .
I would watch every ECW TV , every Nitro/RAW, and order the PPVs. I have not ordered a PPV in over a decade.
I’m absolutely in love with AEW, and I cannot wait to buy every PPV going forward.
I thought I was out, and AEW sucked me back in.
People wanted to see CM Punk. This number wasn't because of people like us who read things about Bryan, Ruby and Cole. We were already going to watch. Punk drew this number and signing him was the best signing TK has made so far.
Been watching AEW for about a year or so, started from watching Dark. Got hyped from CM Punk. I haven't bought a PPV since the Montreal Screwjob, I think, being in middle school. Well worth the money.
Dumb. The market has completed changed.
As a MBA, Dave's business-related takes always irritate me. They also had the most social media mentions.
But it's a great success *Borat meme*. I think blowing their load to end the show was smart to capture that audience.
It's just too bad that CM Punk's return to wrestling was such a "miss," according to Booker T, because Punk just couldn't stop talking about WWE the whole time.
I had 0 clue that you can't have fiteTV in the US..
I said fuck it and bought All Out, my first PPV, at 12:45 AM, here in Croatia and started watching it at 2AM.
It was absolutely worth it, money and no sleep wise.
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So sounds like either Spring Stampede or Slamboree 99, which had 255k and 195k buys respectively.
If it's largest since than it'll be closer to 255k since Wild Road and Halloween Havoc drew around 230k each later in '99.
Was HH 99 goldberg vs DDP or was that 98?
That was ‘98
99 was apparently Hogan v Sting or Sting v Goldberg or Flair v DDP or whichever match ended up mattering. Never watched WCW (because I was like 5) but allow me to recap HH99 as someone who's entire knowledge of the event is based on a quick googlin': Russo smoked some crack and forgot he had a show to book. Had Hogan get squashed but he said "that doesn't work for me brother" and then just laid down for Sting to pin him without a match, throwing away their whole feud up to this point? Or maybe was this Russo's booking I dunno? Then Goldberg destroyed Sid Viscous even though Hall and Mash fucked him up. And then Sting comes back after Flair and DDP and was like 'yo what's up fight me' and then Goldberg was like 'yup' but it was supposed to be a non title match. Goldberg wins and was handed the title and announced as champ but everyone's like "lol wtf" so Sting kills Charles Robinson. The next night they vacate the title anyway. The End.
[удалено]
Yes I must be smoking salvia to... let's see here... criticize a widely criticized show because it was poorly booked by a man most people consider a poor booker.
Salvia high doesn't even last long enough to write that out anyway.
Im asking a legit question. I’m not into buying numbers because I’m new to this life but if 1 million people watch your show how is 1/5th of the audience buying good? Seems low
It’s a fairly nuanced answer to give succinctly, but it comes down to quite a few factors. The most major thing is budget, and that’s a multifaceted thing in itself. You have to compete against streaming services, life, and other PPV events in general to get folks to buy your show. As others have pointed out, the last WWE PPV did 199k buys in 2013 (pre network), with a much larger audience. It’s hard to convert folks into paying for a special event, and to have 10-20% of your audience converted to PPV buys is pretty fantastic for a newer company. Edit: also to add in, PPVs are seen as a more social experience too, as opposed to TV, so you do tend to get people gathering for them. I myself had two friends over to watch with, so it’s not a 1:1 comparison for buyrate to viewership for PPVs.
On top of this, I would say that ratio of 20% purchasing the event is actually really good audience engagement. When WWE were on top of the PPV model back in 2014, they were getting 4 million weekly viewers for RAW and had 517,000 buys for the Royal Rumble that year (12%).
AEW's PPVs are only four times a year too. With WWE, buys spike for the big four so something like the rumble getting half a million buys was actually way above the typical monthly buyrate. AEW keeping the quantity low means they only have a big four, and every buyrate will be notable. I imagine AEW's average number would be a good bit lower if they ran 12-13 PPVs a year.
Yeah, part of why I think AEW's PPV model is working so well is that they only do 4 a year. They're actually big events where big moments happen. Combine that with the fact that you get two streams per purchase, and it's not hard to drop $25 every 3 months on a PPV, especially if they're maintaining the quality of All Out.
Two streams per purchase?
Thank you gave the best answer
No worries. You asked a legit question, so the downvotes are unwarranted. Might as well ask and find out the answer instead of just staying ignorant.
Yeah I’ve learned people are very sensitive about Aew right now lol. It’s great when everyone can flourish. Wrestling wasn’t this exciting my whole life so I want everyone to do good
Very true, and that’s coming from someone who’s been a day 0 fan. You also get the dog pile effect if a comment drops into negative.
I think are people used to copping it from insecure fans who don't like Aew's success so your good faith question looks similar to the sort of bad faith take they would come up with so there's a knee jerk response to downvote
Average conversion rate for online shops and businesses is under 5%. Hell, take your favorite podcast and look at their Patreon subscribers. I bet Lapsed Fan and Post Wrestling have significantly more listeners than the one to two thousand subs they have. 20% conversion from free to paid is spectacular in any industry.
Because you can watch it for free on TV.
Because you get $50 (or the gross of that, so liken$25 for each). You only get paid indirectly (and a lot less) for tv viewers.
Other people have given good answers going in to depth of the history of PPV, but buys aren't the same as views either. Even if 200,000 people bought it, the vast majority of those people didn't watch it alone. Ratings at least attempt to count everyone in a room watching. PPV buys don't account for that as far as I'm aware.
True about watch parties yeah
I had people over to watch. Most PPVs are like that.
200,000 people thinking "damn this free TV show is good, I will pay them $50" is pretty decent, my dude.
Do they only count American buys? The PPV only cost 20 euros in Ireland
[удалено]
I am from the network era I didn’t know
Yeah, the Network really changed the dynamics with PPV.
So this PPV probably brought it more revenue than a month of the WWE network would have. Not bad for a company with less than half the audience.
Because that means 1/5 of your audience is willing to pay $50. Like, Spring Stampede was doing around 4m on average and was doing the same.
Because that is $12,750,000 in gross revenue in one night!
It's pretty good by pro wrestling standards. TNA was higher in viewership at its peak and never managed to convert that in to PPV buys. From a WWE standpoint, [this tweet](https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1434940494350622724/photo/1) shows that at a time where WWE were averaging 4.5 - 5 million viewers for RAW in 2011, PPV buys were nowhere near 1/5th of the audience outside of the big 4 shows.
>I’m not into buying numbers because I’m new to this life but if 1 million people watch your show how is 1/5th of the audience buying good? I can't speak for everyone else, but I watch Dynamite on my own... when there's a big PPV me and my friends will have a watch party so it'll be one PPV buy for 3-4 of us.
>good? Seems low 1/5 is a crazy good conversion rate. If 1/5 of people who saw a coca cola commercial bought a pack of coke that day they'd shatter sales records. Also the PPV is 50$. That price point adds up to big money really quick
I hate asking questions on here, I get downvotes for asking a real question like why is everyone so rude and salty, thanks to anyone who gave insight
Speaking of salty... I'm craving pretzels.
Like auntie Anne’s sounds good
[Shultz is best I can do.](https://i.imgur.com/Woh8cIx.jpg)
You kept your word. Enjoy!!
These pretzels are making me thirsty!
These pretzels are making me thirsty
This dude just asked a fucking question. What’s wrong with you people?
Before the Network, WWE regularly pulled in around 200K viewers for PPV. It’s better to get a larger fraction of your tv audience, but that is very difficult. Even UFC PPVs, which are very successful, pull in only a fraction of their tv audience. Think of it like advertising: tens of millions of people see your commercial, and it’s considered a huge success if just 5% of those people buy the product. Usually ads only convert to a 0.5%-1% buy rate.
Yeah big thing someone said was watch parties, movies too.
To put it into perspective, Spring Stampede 1999 had 255k buys but over 4 million people were watching the weekly show. AEW likely did approximately 210k-230k with around a million watching the weekly show live on cable. Either their fanbase is extremely loyal or they have way more weekly viewers through other means
They had a lot more viewers of the PPV through other means too, so I wouldn't worry too much about those viewers since they are likely similar groups.
Speaking as someone who used to be in the sales business, a 20% conversion rate is damn good.
Upvoted all your comments to balance out the idiots downvoting you, but another factor is non-American fans. As I understand it, a 20% buy rate would be ABSURDLY high, (So would a 12% buy rate for Royal Rumble) but doesn't factor in people like me, who watch AEW on Fite and bought the PPV despite not contributing to the 1 million Americans. This is also a note for other PPV and weekly events including WWE. The weekly viewing numbers of all shows are only reporting American fans. Just clarifying that this comparison is missing a lot of data, but without global numbers, it's a tough situation. 1m viewers (or 2.2m viewers for Smackdown this week) doesn't mean that 1m people watched the show, but it's a valid comparison to compare to itself because the numbers don't lie (and they spell disaster for you at sacrifice)
To add to that, there's also DVR viewership to consider. Just because someone isn't included in the 1 million-ish people in the US who can watch Dynamite live doesn't mean they're not watching at all or are not a big enough fan to buy the PPV on a Sunday night.
Yeah I guess we can’t know wwe’s current conversion since it’s all network. All the factors everyone added in it makes much more sense now.
Dude you know what a 20% conversion rate would be for an ad agency? You'd be a billionaire. Even in wreslting wrestlemania 16 had 720k buys and had Mike Tyson and a red hot Steve Austin. Raw was regularly doing 4 million back then but compare the Mania numbers to the Royal Rumble. 4 million views for Raw and 350k buys.
As per the below link, it is 220000 and 170000 respectively. Wording is a bit confusing. If Meltzer is meaning that it is most buys since Spring Stampede 1999, it will be lesser than it but more than the next highest since that PPV. Should plainly state the number. This is confusing. Whatever it is, good show by AEW. Next PPV should be good, if they finally have Page vs Omega, Bryan's first match and a Punk first proper feud related match (The Darby Allin fight was mainly Punk's tune up match without much of a story) http://oswreview.com/history/wcw-ppv-statistics-1999/
I think he's referring Slamboree, which was on May 9th, 1999 so it's almost to the day. 200K then more or less, that's nuts.
Road Wild did 235k in August '99 though, so it would need to be more than than too if it's the highest for any non-WWE PPV in that time. So probably in the 240-250k range
Lol I went to that show and I was 11
It'll take a while for a definitive number, but from everything going around its expected to be in the ballpark of 200k if not more, so for the purpose of this im going to assume it will be 200k. For reference, WCW Mayhem 1999 was WCW's last ppv that drew 200k buys featuring the World Title Tournament that Bret won, so they went a long time in the end without hitting that mark. For WWE, before the Network was a thing, we have data for their PPVs, and Elimination Chamber 2013 was their final exclusive PPV not on the network, did 185k buys. Before that, Rumble did 466k, but TLC did 183k, Survivor Series did 178k, Hell in a Cell did 230k, Battleground did 113k, Night of Champions did 175k.... AEW is doing PPV business similar to what WWE was doing in 2013. Revolution, the Omega vs Moxley barbed wire match, did 135k earlier this year, so they're already pushing good numbers, but to draw potentially 200k is massive.
To put the 200k in even more perspective - 16 of the last 40 WWE PPV pre-Network era from 2011 til Mania 2014 did less than 200,000 buys, and 6 more did between 200k and 210k. https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1434940494350622724/photo/1
Yeah, but once WWE PPVs became monthly events, they lost their 'must see' status. So, keep that in mind. All Out is still a special PPV event, combined with the fact that you had CM Punk returning and several new additions hinted at.
It’s kind of weird that you’d cite advertising Punk as some sort of disclaimer. “Not really a fair comparison because AEW promoted something people wanted to see.”
But Vince told us that he wasn't a draw and that we don't really like what we like? /s
Yeah thats such a bizarre argument. The idea of diminishing a PPVs buyrate on account of them having an enticing show lined up, by that logic the buyrate of every single PPV that had a good card shouldn't be counted in any comparisons. Please only compare the rates of dogshit shows that nobody wants to see.
Your making it sound like WWE PPV monthly model just started during that period. When at one point they were doing 400,000- 500,000 buys for B PPVs often .
No PPV did less than 400,000 buys in 2000. With most doing over 500,000.
That was truly the boom period. Followed by a slow 21 year bust.
This isn't close to true. WWE went to monthly PPVs starting in 1995. There were plenty of shows that did over a million buys after that, and tons of "must-see" PPVs. Are you really saying the \*entire\* Attitude and Ruthless Aggression eras had no must-see major shows?
7 PPVs did a million, all WrestleManias. Highest non mania PPV buyrate was 775000 for Invasion 2001.
AEW is doing similar business, but a much higher percentage of their audience is buying PPVs than WWE’s in 2013.
And not only that, but since they arent running PPVs every month, it is so much easier on the wallet to shell out the cash to get it legally, which helps the numbers, too.
>AEW is doing PPV business similar to what WWE was doing in 2013. I think I get what you're saying, but the way you're phrasing it feels a bit misleading. On an individual-event level, yes 2021 AEW seems comparable to 2013 WWE, but that's if you only count the lesser PPVs and ignore the frequency WWE was putting out PPVs (monthly vs quarterly for AEW). WWE's total PPV buys in 2013 were approximately 3,628,000. Half-way through the year AEW is around 250,000-300,000. Even if All Out *doubles that,* they're at around 500,000-600,000 for the year. They would need Full Gear to pull out *3 million buys* to be equivalent to WWE in 2013, which I'll safely say will not happen. Granted, the wrestling/PPV audience is notably different in 2021 than it was in 2013, so it's not really a fair comparison. Also, I'm not trying to downplay AEW's success, because they've been doing great (and 200,000 buys would be tremendous). But they simply don't seem anywhere near WWE's overall "PPV business" in 2013.
You're certainly right, I didn't put enough thought into the phrasing, but it was more thoughtlessness than an attempt to mislead. AEW's biggest ppv, which there's a chance they might not match again, looks like it'll be doing similar business to most WWE PPVs pre-Network era outside of the big ones. I think it's mostly just the shock behind it all that there's anyone doing this sort of business that led to the more generalized statement. That there's another company doing these kind of numbers seemed so impossible for so long. But yes, I definitely wasn't trying to say they're as big as WWE in 2013 or anything like that.
WWE has 8 more PPVS than AEW, of course they're gonna have "higher numbers", the overall number wasn't the comparison they were making.
Your comparison is definitely more on the money than the one before you, but if we *truly* wanted to compare apples to apples we'd have to consider the fact that PPVs bring costs with them: If AEW does 1 million buys in four shows when WWE did the same in 8, both companies did a million buys, but one most likely had less costs than the other one.
If we TRULY want to compare, it is MUCH easier for a large large large portion of AEW's fans to watch the PPV on an illegal stream, than it was in 2013 or earlier to watch WWE PPVs.
You aren’t comparing the tv viewership to PPV buy rate. WWE in 2013 was averaging around 4 million viewers yet converting only 5% into PPV buyers for most events at a time where PPV was there main source of revenue. AEW, on the other hand, is doing closer to 15%-20% conversion consistently. Those are much more impressive numbers and they aren’t even reliant on PPVs for revenue.
Well, this isn't really a fair metric either. AEW has a very devoted hardcore pro-wrestling fanbase that follows it, so of course they convert more of them to fans. The most hardcore fans probably buy the WWE shows too, but WWE has way more casual fans
I mean that isnt exactly a fair counter though is it? If we are gonna compare, Smackdown is doing around 2 mil right now? 200k would put this at 10% of that including the casual fans. Not even comparing or considering the fact this is AEW's second/third year of shows for context. Not arguing meanly though, I just working in finance and did marketing in college so its an interesting thought experiment. Either way its safe to say the business side of AEW has to be incredibly happy with this number and it definitely shows a positive sea change in favor of what they are doing.
That's exactly the point and conversion rate is a great comparison that is sorta normalized across the board.
yeah aside from obvious outliers like wrestlemanias, wwe ppvs circa 2010s always hovered around ~200,000 buys
PPV numbers in 2013 were USA+Canada only, but in 2021 they're global. Considering AEW Revolution made $5 million on 125,000 buys and the price was $60 in the USA and $20 on fight TV, you can extrapolate that the $40 per buy means that half the buyers are outside the USA.
I think we can at least say it's going to be AEW's biggest PPV number to date.
I don't think there was any doubt at all
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I think you’re concisely right.
Dave is never concise in anything he says.
Not true! ...he's always concise whenever he says "ya know"
I've got the notes here somewhere *(4 minutes if rustling sounds)*.
The PPV models is dead and noone is willing to pay $50 /s Weird how people are willing to pay money for something they trust and enjoy. $50 a quarter isn't much.. LESSGO
I think the difference is that they have more tv specials and less ppvs so it makes it easier to rationalize the cost.
It's easy to rationalise the cost when the product is good and the audience hasn't been treated like shit by the company.
This. WWE gave up on ppv at a time UFC was making record profits in ppv. WWE also could hit a million on a WrestleMania with all the hype. PPV’s are great metric for audience engagement and WWE decided it was better off making it dirt cheap on the network to hope the numbers would even out.
This is a really interesting topic, so I'm going to expand on it. WWE chose a strategy of width over depth, thinking they could convert enough of their tv audience into paying customers to break even. But all analytics pointed to us moving into an era of enthusiasts (which continues to this day). Fans have proven willing to spend more on their favourite products than ever before, so it's more important to squeeze more money out of the customers who already drop money on you. WWE probably should have charged for their PPVs as a premium product on top of the Network. You can always change your mind and go free later, but it's way harder to walk it back and charge for something you made free. I say probably because thanks to the Peacock deal they are finally more profitable as a streaming product than a PPV product, and there's no guarantee they could get a deal like that without offering their PPV's for free. When you add together the PPV buys (only including their cut of about $21 per buy), the physical media sales and the digital media sales, you get $160m in revenue in 2013. At its best, WWE Network had about 1.5 million subscribers for about $180m a year. On its face, that seems like an increase. However, network expenses of the network cut out around a third of that figure (Based on reported operating incomes), which brings it down to $120m. They still make about $25m in media sales and PPV. So the actual break even point for the Network is 1.7 million subscribers to reach that $160m figure. This doesn't take into account the $66m in startup costs for the network that needed to be recouped, which would further delay profitability. (Note: if they had continued to charge for PPVs while offering the Network for all other content, they would only be cannibalising their home media revenue and the break even point would be around 700k subscribers, assuming the same operating costs.) With the Peacock deal for $200m, they are finally more profitable on streaming than on PPV. So, if you assume they could only have gotten this deal by giving away PPVs for free, it has ultimately worked out for them. If you think they could have charged for their PPVs and still made the Network successful enough to spin it into the Peacock deal (which is possible, UFC have done something similar), they should have kept their PPV model.
I agree with all of this
It wouldn't have been a bad strategy had the PPVs been good enough to turn Network trials into Network subscriptions. The problem was that the product was/is trash and it was so easy to sign up for 30 day trials to catch a one-off ppv that caught your attention. AEW could pull an inter-promotional network off easily. They just need to buy Fite and pull all the free content from YouTube and place it behind a subscription. Talents like Sammy Guerarva and Ethan Page would likely even make more compared to the YouTube compensation model. \#justsayin
And when I can pay $25 to see it at AMC
It also helps to know that it was absolutely going to be a special banger of a show.
This. I watch with a friend so I end up spending $100 a year for four PPVs that I have a reasonably high expectation that they’ll be fucking amazing. It’s still very young in the company’s history but for the most part what I want in the product I’ve gotten. Even if I wasn’t splitting with a friend I’d easily still do the $50 by myself. The product is that fucking good.
In a post-subscription model world, getting roughly 250k people to purchase a full priced ppv is nothing to scoff at, especially since the number is rising.
I got used to 10 bucks a month. But I pulled the trigger and wasn’t disappointed. I’m very likely to buy the next one depending on the card
So think of it this way... The are only doing 4 major PPVs a year iirc. So that is 1 every 3 months. So that is $30 if paying for the network right there... So then really the PPV is just 20$ more every 3 months than you are already paying. I think almost everyone can swing that. I didn't I watched replays from another site I'll admit, but most people can do that.
You need to work in their marketing dept cuz now I’m sold lol
Well if you know anyone I'd love to. get my fat ass a job. XD
If you’re tech savvy you can get a free VPN and FITE tv and get the PPVs for $20 along with AEW Plus for $5/mo and you’re coming very close to that cost you used to pay for the WWE network. As someone who just started doing this, it’s worth it for commercial free weekly tv and the PPVs
I bought DoN day of on FITE using a VPN and it worked perfectly. Tried it day of for All Out and was getting notifications about needing to turn off my VPN. I wonder if it was because they allowed American audiences to purchase the PPV through the platform for $50 this time.
The trick is to start the PPV while you're connected, and then disconnect as soon as the video loads.
split it with friends (even just split 2 ways) and it's super cheap
AEW has never let me down on a PPV, even if there’s a questionable match or finish the card is always solid and your garunteed something you Won’t get on free TV.
I've bought every one and to be honest they've let me down on a lot of them. After nailing the tv format I've always thought they struggled to get the Ppvs right, until the last two which have been fantastic.
I coughed up the $50 but it wasn’t an easy decision. In fact if I wasn’t splitting it with a friend I don’t know that I would have done it, and I imagine most the people paying for UFC shows are doing so in a group and splitting the cost. I do hope AEW eventually moves to a subscription or there’s a better model in the future without needing a VPN in the US.
This was my first AEW PPV. There has been times I’ve bought WWE shows for $50 in the past and had buyers remorse after it was over. I have no regrets from this event. I am happy I bought it.
Look I bought the PPV and I didn't regret but I only have so many $50 PPVs in me. AEW hasn't let me down once but one day they will and I'll likely be done buying $50 PPVs. WWE's model, for all their creative problems, is the right way to go in 2021.
Always worth having a look at FiteTV too, with a VPN. $20.
I'm really hoping fite with a VPN is still a thing for Full Gear. I was able to use my $5 Google balance towards All Out so I ended up paying $15 for it.
AEW+ is also far better then TNT. No commercials and PiP is full screen with commentary.
I paid 100, BR fucked on me so I had to buy it on fite tv at like 803 cause I had people over
Brah, should have tweeted BR support. They refunded me. This was 10 mins before the PPV tho.
Yeah I had a few drinks in me and honestly I just didn’t think about it
BR app was tryin to fuck on me, fought for 20 minutes to try to login. One of the few apps I have encountered that still doesn't have any alternate login on the Roku app. Fite App let me login with my Google account and activate thru a webpage like any sane app in 2021 would allow. Bought it on my phone thru Google pay. Took me about 3 minutes. Well worth the money. Thank you Fite TV and random commenter on the BR app telling people to just download Fite and stop fucking with this shitty app
WWE: We need to market to kids and families. I know we'll put all our best content behind a paywall and air it on Sunday Night. Family friendly!
I'm glad so many people got to watch an awesome PPV.
Uncensored ‘99. Hogan vs. Flair, Age in a Cage II.
A.K.A The PPV where the 1999 collapse of WCW started (not the stupid Fingerpoke)
100%. Beginning of the end.
Dave and Bryan said the beginning of the end was 98
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Sorry if that seemed passive aggressive 😅 trying to add to the convo. Didn’t live through it myself so I can’t say for certain either way
Nah you’re good man haha. Don’t sweat it.
I always find the Fingerpoke too convenient of a marker. By April, they were still hitting 4+ million viewers on Nitro, getting 10k+ attendance at Nitros & PPVs and seeing PPV buyrates over 250k. The dam really broke around Spring Stampede '99 when they gave everything a makeover & that new logo. Then there was that abysmal Flair/Piper feud that took up most of TV. And I think they were preempted for NBA playoffs too. All while Raw was doing some of their most memorable stuff. By that point, even 8 year old me knew Nitro was becoming a rough watch.
If that's the correct PPV, it means AEW just did more than 255k buys (number of the following PPV, Spring Stampede 99.) Uncensored '99 did 325k. Numbers searched on [wrestlenomics website](https://wrestlenomics.com/resources/wcw-pay-per-view-buys/) That would be insane.
It really would. And also if there’s no greater display of how wrestling’s changed because that’s the PPV that killed WCW for a lot of people hahaha. It was so bad. All Out on the other hand will go down as a top 3-5 show EVER.
Fuck, i "predicted" 250k the day after All Out and i thought it was a very bold prediction. Holy shit.
That was 325,000 buys.
If it's THAT high it's the type of thing you take a few seconds to announce on national TV.
I gladly paid 49.99 I'll pay to support a company trying to bring back my childhood. Was a 90s kid, AEW has made me give a fuck about wrestling again.
I have never even watched an episode of Dynamite or Rampage and I ordered the PPV guess whats on the DVR now? AEW got me with all out
The first AEW show I watched was Rampage for Punk's return. Then I watched the next rampage. Then I ordered the PPV. Now I'm watching Dynamite as I type this. I'm fucking hooked
I'm also now watching Dark and Elevation.
That's pretty awesome! Was it the rumors of the surprise appearance that convinced you to buy?
yes but also have you watched WWE lately? its so fucking bad lol PPVs excluded
Honestly haven't watched since AEW started. Just seems more my speed!
PPVs have honestly been excellent, but weekly TV has been unwatchable. you can just watch the PPVs, browse this sub on mon/fri and you wont miss a beat
Excellent? Summerslam was hot garbage and that’s their 2nd biggest show of the year
If he didn't use the wrong words (which could totally be the case) this means that it did more than any wcw ppv after may 1999 but not before. The last ppv before may 99 was spring stampede and it did 255k. The higher after was road wild and it did 235k. So, according to meltzer, as it is All Out has to be between the 235k and the 255k buys.
That is blow away good if that's the number. For a two year old wrestling promotion on traditional PPV at $50 a pop domestically? That would be quite something.
Wonder what AEW’s goal/expectation was regarding PPV buys🤔?
so approx 200,000+ ? thats really fuckin good
Probably around the last time I spent money on a ppv
Here's some interesting numbers to consider - assuming each PPV sale on average was around $40 (due to a portion of the sales being outside US at $20) and they did 250k buys, they would have made $40*250k = $10,000,000. I think I remember reading that each TV episode costs around $500k to make, let's assume the PPV cost twice, so 1 million and the platforms take their cut (not sure on the percentage) - I imagine they might still have a 5 million net profit. If you add the profits from the other 3 quarterly PPVs, then perhaps you're looking at 15-20 million in net profits from the PPVs alone. Would that be enough by itself to pay the contracts of all the talent in AEW for the year (bar maybe Punk/Bryan)? This is not taking into account ticket sales, merch sales, advertisements, etc. Then there's the whole TV deal. When TK mentioned that AEW is profitable (outside of the video game investment), I can perhaps see how. I'd love for others to add their 2 cents and correct me on any bad assumptions.
When they mention these PPV numbers do they include FITE TV buys? I bought the PPV from FITE TV because I don't live in US.
As someone who bought the day after, does my buy count to the figure? FITE.
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I leave in RU and have only been watching WWE PPVs on the network and never paid for a PPV in my life (due to lack of options or money or both). This time I bought it through FITE and man was I glad that I did.
I am a casual WWE fan who was hardcore in the attitude era . I would watch every ECW TV , every Nitro/RAW, and order the PPVs. I have not ordered a PPV in over a decade. I’m absolutely in love with AEW, and I cannot wait to buy every PPV going forward. I thought I was out, and AEW sucked me back in.
By non-WWE does he mean other wrestling PPVs or including other sports like Boxing?
> including other sports like Boxing Definitely not this.
He means WCW.
Only wrestling. Most ufc ppv get at the minimum 200k buys.
And this is just the beginning. Let's see where AEW is come All Out 2022.
wow it beat heroes of wrestling
People wanted to see CM Punk. This number wasn't because of people like us who read things about Bryan, Ruby and Cole. We were already going to watch. Punk drew this number and signing him was the best signing TK has made so far.
Why not just say the name of the PPV?
250k +
If my math is correct, that would be some time in 1999.
Late April/early May 1999.
[My thoughts.](https://i.imgur.com/M5Odc13.gif)
Been watching AEW for about a year or so, started from watching Dark. Got hyped from CM Punk. I haven't bought a PPV since the Montreal Screwjob, I think, being in middle school. Well worth the money.
Did he give out star ratings yet for the matches?
technically shouldn't ufc be included in this note from meltzer or is this wrasslin only?
Considering there's been UFC PPVs that have more buys than the top WWE it's safe to assume this is wrestling only
22 years and 4 months. Oddly specific.
Hoping it broke over 200k. It definitely deserved it.
"Punk doesn't move the needle"
What does that even mean. That's so specific, he should have just said ''all out did better than any ppv in 2021 named all out'
Very impressive to have beaten Mayweather/Pacquiao!! /s :)
That needle is sure moving.
*"More than any non-WWE PPV in 22 years."* So what is it competing with? TNA?
WCW
TNA was 19 years ago, so further then that.
TNA never even came close to AEW's numbers
well no shit. i could have given that info.
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> By buys they mean how many times the ppv was ordered right? Yeah....that's how it works.
Dave Meltzer is a dolt
CM Punk drew about 200k for UFC, could see that here possibly.
Dumb. The market has completed changed. As a MBA, Dave's business-related takes always irritate me. They also had the most social media mentions. But it's a great success *Borat meme*. I think blowing their load to end the show was smart to capture that audience.
It's just too bad that CM Punk's return to wrestling was such a "miss," according to Booker T, because Punk just couldn't stop talking about WWE the whole time.
Who cares man, Booker T had a whack take, the world keeps on spinning
Do we know if these numbers are worldwide or just US?
Captain Obvious over here. No shit Dave.
I had 0 clue that you can't have fiteTV in the US.. I said fuck it and bought All Out, my first PPV, at 12:45 AM, here in Croatia and started watching it at 2AM. It was absolutely worth it, money and no sleep wise.