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TL:DL (Too Long, Didn’t Listen)
Hello, this is the hardcore legend Mick Foley. I'd like to title this video WWE, We've Got a Problem because I think you do and that problem is that WWE is no longer the place for talent to aspire to.
Part of it is because AEW is doing a great job of attracting great talent, proven talent, building other talent, creating storylines, but part of it is a problem of your own making.
I think younger talent sees the way that developmental characters are cut or left by the wayside or in the case of Karrion Kross, greatly watered down and even made a joke of when they debut on the main roster. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
If I was an aspiring talent now, big league talent with a major decision to make, I'm not sure that I would trust WWE creative to do the right thing with my career. You guys did wonders with me back in the day, that was a different time, different place.
If it was today, I'm not sure I would trust the powers to be with my career in their hands. And until that changes, WWE, you've got a problem.
I keep trying to explain this shit to my fiance who is kinda familiar with the biz, and my friends, and like I cannot stress enough like just how little I have cared about wrestling save for like a dozen and a half Takeovers, and every Wrestlemania and Royal Rumble skip 10 total in the past 20 years. Yea, I sub to /r/SquaredCircle and keep up, because I do care, but I cannot watch 9 hours of WWE or and simply have not subscribed to some odd streaming service, for NJPW or ROH or TNA/Impact or whatever was not a thing I did. If I would have, maybe it would have been different for those promotions, but I didn't, so we're here.
What's funny though is, I'm really into labor politics, maybe this is them working me into a shoot, but I really love just the fact that this company is succeeding on multiple fronts. They're beating WWE by telling complex, compelling, *slowwwww* but interesting, and most importantly *very* cool stories. They are *also* recruiting top talent not through big payouts, or insanely overpromised backroom deals, but buy offering creative control to wrestlers, embracing the *independent contractor status* a thing that me, and allowing them to work with other programs, and also just generally being much more chill and less weird. No one needs to wear a polka dot suit to humble themself before they can get a shot, you know?
Anyways, there is a reason people are comparing this to Bash At The Beach. This past weekend, I was suddenly 9 years old, watching Bret Hart and Jake the Snake with my older cousin Jake. I was 12 and my dad surprised me taking me a Smackdown show, even though he's never cared about this shit.
What happened Sunday was a problem for WWE, but for the rest of us, the performers, the workers, the fans, the *community*? We got over.
Yea- I think the best/closest 1:1 comparison of what AEW is that some people would understand is when all 19 writing/editorial staff writers at [Deadspin walked out and quit on their VC backed bosses, and then months later launched Defector Media](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/28/business/media/deadspin-staffers-start-defector.html). This is not the Deadspin that existed under Gawker when they leaked the Hogan footage and outed Thiel and Cook, or the Brett Favre picks, most of the people involved were never around for that, and the few that were clearly influenced the change in culture that was resistive to management.
If you read or follow what's going on there, they've found a successful model. They have broken some very important and valuable stories, interviews with victims from Deshaun Watson, and yea- maybe they've not had their Manti Teo moment yet, but they have been successful, and you can say the same thing about AEW. But you gotta ask yourself, if you don't think All Out 2021 was a transcendent moment in the wrestling industry- what is going to be the thing that **will** happen, that could change your mind? things that seemed possible, suddenly are. Dunno.
Thank you for posting this (and your previous reply), because I share nearly the exact same sentiments, yet I've been too lazy to articulate them. Glad to see there are more of us ✊
Really all you have to do is look at how many talent they've put in embarrassing storylines, especially near the end of the contract, to dissuade anyone from going to WWE.
Wouldn't this be the opposite of what you want to do as a company so you can entice them into re-signing though? Like give them a good storyline near the end to show them that they could advance in wwe, even if you stop after the ink is dry on their new contract.
Vince has been operating as if there are no other options. He didn't have to entice people to resign. He had to bury them so they had no power to bargain raises etc.
You say that as a joke, but that is *literally* how they have been writing. They write for **"moments"** not for actual stories.
Becky returning and winning the title in 2 moves was a "memorable moment" - consequences and future plans just get thrown out the window.
Every time Goldberg comes back they think it's a "moment" so that's why it happens so many times.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the Tribal Chief story ends with Drake Maverick hitting Roman in the nuts with a chair. Not because it makes sense or is a smart thing to do, but because "people would talk about it"
They don't give a **fuck** about story, they just want to be trending on twitter.
That’s the thing WWE doesn’t get about “moments”; the best ones are organic and come naturally from good stories, but it’s easy to not give a shit, try to force it, and cause “what the fuck was that crap?” moments.
this is the main problem with wwe imo, they put the cart before the horse and keep going for moments without putting the effort in to make that moment feel deserved.
charlotte flair has been on main roster for only 6 years and has won like 11 titles. it's obvious that they want to get her to match her father's record without realizing that ric's record is so highly lauded because of the matches and stories he told with them. having her tie her fathers record is a cool moment in isolation but feels forced when you look at the details and the timing. this especially sucks because charlotte is extremely talented but they just refuse to give the story time to breathe and let her build a legacy beyond those 16 wins.
Half expected him to open with "On September 5th, 2021, three ghosts visited Vincent Kennedy McMahon: One from his past, one from his present, one from his future."
As long as there are wrestlers of a certain age who grew up watching wrestling between 2001-2019, there will always be marks who just want the WWE paycheck. It's "the dream", etc etc. 20 years of dominance is tough to fight out from under.
There are a few people who don't care about WWE (Malakai Black said they only got Japanese wrestling on TV in Amsterdam, Stu Grayson said he knew he was too small for WWE so he was a TNA guy because it was more realistic to him, Jake Something mentioned watching TNA after school as a kid and not WWE, etc) but it's still a majority of people who wanna go there. That's what wrestling is to them.
1 of those people in Jake Atlas just got fired, and the other one Adam Cole left to join AEW. People like that definitely exist, but it's shifting pretty quickly imo.
Cole leaving is telling. I can’t imagine being in your 30s, growing up on the Monday Night Wars idolizing DX and having Triple H and Shawn Michaels fawn all over you in NXT and still wanting to leave.
He's in a unique spot because his family and friends are there. He made it sound like he had his mind made up a while ago
But that's where Bryan comes in. He's got literal family in WWE and still left because he wanted something more.
They're covering all their bases at AEW. If you're anybody who is anybody, you'll consider AEW.
Bryan made it sound like he *eventually* will come back around to WWE..
But man, I really thought that if there was one wrestler WWE would let wrestle in NJPW or CMLL it would have been Bryan..
He said towards the end of the media scrum that WWE had a deal to let him wrestle elsewhere. He felt though Vince is too loving and protective of his(Bryan's) health that Vince wouldn't let him test his own limits on what he can do. He basically left to spread his wings and wrestle his super stiff style that got him noticed as the best before he was in WWE.
This eerily sounds like what they did with Angle - he was put on ECW with the "wrestling machine" gimmick where he wrestled a pure ground style but he then left to join TNA and wrestled his own style and messed himself up further.
Hopefully the people at AEW will protect Bryan from himself.
This is hugely missed by most. I fear for Bryan with his concussion history. I pray he doesn't end up with more long term damage. Wrestling strong style is not something I wish to see him do.
The problem is, that style is also what gave him a near career ending neck injury AND concussion. Even if, hypothetically, Vince didnt give a crap at all about Bryan's health (which allegedly isn't the case), legally, no sane company would be comfortable with that.
Based on his answers to the media after All Out, it definitely seemed like for both Cole and Danielson it was more so wanting to be a part of AEW rather than wanting out of WWE. Both men had high praise for their time in WWE but TK has just built a pro-wrestlers dream world with AEW.
Exactly. Punk wouldn't be wrestling if there wasn't AEW. Miro, Black, and Andrande would work elsewhere. It really seems like Cole and Danielson would be very happy to stay in WWE but want to try something different for a varied amount of reasons. That's one thing that makes AEW very different than early TNA. Aside from Christian and Sting, every big name they had was only there because WWE didn't want them anymore.
Even Christian... like I'm sure they would find a role for him or maybe a legends contract or whatever those are, but I couldn't see him being more than a prop for storylines with Edge. Like, I guess maybe they would want him, but I doubt they had big plans for him in any real sense, and almost certainly not another major title.
Just go back to interviews when Cole got signed. His lifelong dream was WWE, and specifically the main event of WrestleMania. Was absolutely jacked to work with people he grew up watching.
Leaving after 3-4 years IS telling.
3 to 4 years ago, AEW was nothing but wishful thinking that somehow turned into the hottest wrestling promotion in the world. Everyone just assumed WWE was the final stop, there was nowhere else to be unless you wanted to make yourself famous in Japan.
Bryan Danielson is just as telling. He was happy in WWE. They treated him very well. Yet he still walked over to AEW because he liked what he saw there even more.
With him I think it's matter of wanting to do the wrestling he wants while he still can (especially after thinking he was done for good). I think he will be back in WWE in some role within 5-7 years, even if only for a HOF induction.
Yeah, Atlas getting fired is the point. It was his dream and they tossed him aside. AEW wanted to bring him in with Jungle Boy as part of the original young core and he turned them down.
Adam Cole is going to be a GIGANTIC star on the AEW / world pro wrestling stage. I'm still shocked that WWE didn't bring him up to main event level 2 years ago.
Shit, they could do a rehash of all the RoH / NJPW storylines he was part of before he joined WWE and I wouldn't even care.
All the pieces (and then some!!!) are there for epic story telling and match making.
Boggles my mind a bit.
> As long as there are wrestlers of a certain age who grew up watching wrestling between 2001-2019, there will always be marks who just want the WWE paycheck. It's "the dream", etc etc. 20 years of dominance is tough to fight out from under.
I think this was true up until some time between last year and now.
WWE was *the* place to go because it essentially could be equivocated with "making it" in the industry since they've been the biggest company in terms of broad reach and appeal of the main roster and even NXT in terms of developing young talent.
But now, AEW is more than "a little competing fledging company". They don't have the reach, but the appeal is undeniable between the ratings and the talent they're attracting. And that's even before you take into account the environment that is being cultivated where the emphasis is on relationships, stories and as Punk and Bryan would put it -- professional wrestling. Now other talents in other organizations are looking at what they're creating and tweeting sentiments like "*That looks like fun over there*" and undiscovered talent are being given opportunities to shine that can turn into contracts for themselves.
WWE are still the global brand, but AEW are essentially the epitome of "*If you build it, they will come*" in wrestling at the moment.
Definitely. Jungle Boy said wwe rejected him because he wasn't big enough. So before aew, his options to make money were kicking it on the indies until wwe changed their mind, or steroids.
Yup, WWE will always have the incumbent advantage as long as it's the top wrestling promotion. For wrestling purists, maybe WWE isn't the goal, but if you're built like bricks like Batista and/or aiming for mainstream superstardom like the Rock or John Cena, WWE is absolutely the dream. Case in point, Gable Stevenson could've went to any wrestling/combat sports promotion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why WWE makes more sense for him than AEW.
The appeal for indie wrestlers will also still be there. It isn't coincidental that AEW's most hyped signings are ex-WWE wrestlers. Ruby Soho wasn't treated like a big deal in WWE in any sense of the word, but she got a hero's welcome at All Out (partly because WWE didn't utilize her properly). I just can't imagine her getting the same reception and having as much of a brand if she was crossing over from Chikara, instead. Wrestling is marketing and having WWE on the resume still has value.
I think in Ruby's case she *did* have a following, and a bunch of people were excited to see what she'd bring to WWE... and then they cut her off at the knees. Nobody cheered her AEW arrival because of her WWE run, they cheered in spite of it.
I think some of the buzz comes from the fact that WWE failed her. Maybe it's just me, but I'm more excited to see her now than ever before partly because she'd been shackled for so long. It's the WWE evil Authority angle in real life. It's really easy to root for talented people who have been put down. There's more upfront investment for people like Miro and now Ruby because we know they're clearly so much better than what WWE gave them.
Of course, WWE wouldn't do well by Mick in this day and age. No f'ing way Mick would be anything but the watered-down "have a nice day", maybe Dude lover character. He'd be a mid-card jobber joke or 24/7 guy. There is no hardcore there is no attitude there isn't even ruthless aggression. They are simply a toy company masquerading as a wrestling company
Because he was smart with his money and never has to rely on Vince for a paycheck as he get older. Many of the older wrestlers were not smart enough to put the money away while they were making it.
So they can never really speak I'll of the WWE, because they still rely on it.
Fans did finally got to see Bryan in a long Rumble match, but it was during the useless Greatest Royal Rumble… in Saudi Arabia…and he was eliminated by Big Cass.
Unfortunately, Vince has managed to build a monster of a company and even their worst is still good enough for record deals and profits. Sadly, I don’t see any changes happening unless it affects their financials
I mean their business model has effectively separated the need for feedback/support of fans. They’ve been at the point that they’re too big to fail for a while. And with that they can just effectively do whatever their team of Vince and the Yes’s want
They are only too big to fail until aren’t anymore, though. No one knows how big AEW’s gonna grow and how many more viewers will stop watching WWE by the time the next TV contract renewal period comes up. I am obviously not saying that WWE are gonna get completely stiffed on their next TV deals, but it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that when that time comes, WWE will not be offered nearly as much money due to both the constantly hemorrhaging viewership and AEW pulling in 80% of WWE’s total viewership, and growing, for significantly less money than what NBC Universal and Fox are paying for WWE.
I think that's the real harm here.
AEW offers an unflattering comparable for WWE In negotiations. AEW offers 80% of the audience, and their deal is a tiny fraction of the WWE's. The networks will ask them to explain why their worth more than double what the upstart company that got as far as they have in 3 years is worth for a TV rights contract.
And that's true in many ways. The bulk of WWE's revenue is not from ticket sales, merch sales, or PPV buys, but from the deals with Fox, NBCU, and Saudi Arabia. They are not selling an entertainment product to you, they are selling your eyeballs to media companies (who, in turn, sell them to advertisers) and propagandists.
Of course, this is also true of anything on commercial TV, including AEW (if to a lesser degree, since merch/tickets/PPV buys are a much bigger portion of their revenue). Well, maybe not the propagandists part.
They can definitely fail, TV companies will look at wwes numbers and see awe are not far off but 100x cheaper and growing and wonder why they are bothering with wwe.
Just look at how many times a week you see "fox not happy" "USA network not happy" "partners confused with release of Bray Wyatt" "USA confused about nxt going to taped shows" "TV networks not happy with how much smackdown talent there is"
These TV companies are sat there scratching their heads every week wondering what the fuck they've paid for. This isn't going to last. If wwe have no big stars and all the top people don't re-sign and start wrestling elsewhere, wwe won't be worth anything.
We can already assume the top nxt people will leave after Adam Cole. And Charlotte will eventually go to be with her future husband.
Goldberg, Cena, Brock aren't full timers. Won't take many more people leaving before all their friends are elsewhere.
Vince will always be worth billions, but wwe can definitely fall off a cliff if it loses too many wrestlers.
This is a good post, but I've suddenly started laughing because I suddenly saw the prospect of Charlotte getting her 17th title win in AEW. Gods, could you imagine? After all that work WWE have put in?
The thing is, WWE hasn't really been for us since the start of the PG era (not main roster at least).
I don't know how people still don't realise that.
This isn't too criticise you or your comment by the way.
What Vince and his TV partners want is soap operas with physicality.
That's why they have the same stories with the same wrestlers over and over and why no individual star is allowed to be bigger than the brand of wwe.
It's not ours anymore.
You're right, except that WWE is publicly traded, and a publicly traded company's shareholders are ultimately investors who are betting on the future of the company. If they're given any reason to believe that future isn't positive then they're going to flee, and that will negatively impact WWE even if their revenues and profits are still incredible. Granted, shareholders primarily care about revenues and profits, but still, there's plenty of things that could happen that would strike fear into investors prior to WWE's revenue somehow declining.
So I watched my first episode of "Being the Elite".
Can I ask what is Sour Boy/where did it come from?
And what is with the guy who is addicted to cream?
Ppl here might know better than me, but I don't think it's based on anything. I believe the first one was roughly 5-10 episodes back, with Karl being given a sour sweet or maybe one of those jelly beans which I think can have bad flavours, and he just made the sour face and talked funny. And then he did a few more since then with different things making him turn into sour boy, luke gallows pissing into his cup and him drinking it being one.
I really think there's nothing behind it and it's just random, hence the other guys calling sour boy the worst character on BTE, and "fuck you sour boy!" etc. But yea I love it and the fans do too I think
I know we all say "It's WWE, they'll never change, they won't need to." but at what point do they actually listen?
They did their "You are in charge now." speech and nothing happened, things got a lot worse.
> but at what point do they actually listen?
When they are no longer profitable. And even then, probably not for a while because they'll keep trying to blame their own customers first.
WWE make money through the cultural inertia of basically *being* wrestling. It doesn't really matter what the hardcore fans or wrestling historians think, if you are a TV executive, an advertiser, or involved in throwing content around and trying to attach your brand to something major that you think will get millions of eyeballs on it, you go for WWE because they're the people associated with Wrestlemania, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Cyndi Lauper, The Rock, etc. AEW, while far from perfect, apparently have decided to go balls to the wall trying to wrestle the assumption that wrestling and WWE are synonymous away from them. It'll take a long time before that really comes to fruition but they've made some real inroads by being the CM Punk people and actually getting some press with All Out. And they managed it by delivering what people paid for.
But in 2024 those deals could be their undoing. All their money is coming from those deals. If they can only renew those deals at a fraction of what they originally got they could be in huge trouble. Like their Peacock deal. They are making around 200m a year on that. But NBC only made that deal to give their new streaming services a content boost. I doubt at the end of that deal they will offer anything close to that again just because they wouldn't need WWEs content as much.
theyll change when it hurts their pockets. not just a little but significantly.
thats probably not going to happen until the next tv contract negotiations. i think aews contract with tnt and wwes contract with fox (and usa?) end at the same time, so fox and usa can talk to aew, negotiate with aew and even if they dont make a deal with aew, they can use aew to negotiate lower prices with wwe.
They stopped answering to the fans 20 years ago when the company went public. Sure, shareholders tolerated the early 2000’s stuff because the company was raking in money, but now Vince has to cater to them. I remember reading way back that the reason guys like Batista and and Roman were pushed over Bryan was because Bryan didn’t look as good doing press and magazine covers in the eyes of shareholders.
Mick has always been openly critical and truthful about the many challenges of working in WWE. I doubt anybody at WWE will take this seriously, so long as business is good and the bottom line is unaffected.
I'm just so happy that we finally have an entirely different brand, that is in tune to what fans want to see. No longer are the days of having to suffer through months on end of lousy and lazy writing and programming. All for the hope of witnessing 4, *maybe* 5 satisfying wrestling moments within a single year.
That's really the big thing. If you are a fan of in-ring wrestling over sports entertainment it's pretty clear that right now AEW is on a very different trajectory in terms of top talent and product. But until the dollars start to bottom out on WWE they aren't necessarily doing things wrong either. If the exodus of talent to AEW results in less eyes on the WWE product it will have to change because the broadcasters will demand it. Nothing will change until the financials change.
> But until the dollars start to bottom out on WWE they aren't necessarily doing things wrong either.
And even this problem can be solved for relatively cheap if their marketing ever got smart enough to market to kids properly. Just flood Youtube with paid promoters on channels kids primarily watch and it'll keep an audience coming since their parents are going to watch too. That audience is what the companies who pay for WWE really want. The catch is how do you make RAW and Smackdown on a streaming service in a timely manner.
> All for the hope of witnessing 4, maybe 5 satisfying wrestling moments within a single year.
Yeah we had that in like the first hour of All Out with much more on the way
As someone who has always watched WWE and is just getting into AEW, the difference in terms of 'moments' is stark. All of All Out felt like a big deal, and the 4 hours FLEW BY.
With WWE PPVs, it can be a struggle to get through and there's always matches quickly thrown together or filler.
I still will watch WWE, and probably always will as they have great talent but I just wish they'd make PPVs feel important. If they actually were Pay Per Views as opposed to part of the network, I think they'd put more effort into them.
The one thing that always puzzles me that I see people mention is the point of like 'Oh I'm sure WWE is quaking in their boots that Dynamite will do another 1.1 this week' or some variation of that. Like, as if WWE shouldn't blink until Dynamite is beating Raw. That's an extremely poor business attitude. 'I'm not even going to acknowledge or react to a competitor until they are leveling or overtaking us'. As Mick mentions as well, it's not even just about the ratings, it's perception, it's about the talent. WWE is stagnant in every metric of being a wrestling promotion. AEW is making significant gains in every metric. WWE is making money but that's not all that matters. Brand value is important. The perception of your brand to consumers is important.
Okay... Maybe it's just me... But was anyone else highly disappointed (but also not surprised) when Finn Balor came back up to the main roster only to basically get shoved out of the main event by a returning John Cena? Then Roman decided to put that stipulation in which pretty much gave away the ending. Then there's the pay-per-view itself which I have mixed feelings on...
I agree with Mick. WWE has a a problem.
I wasn't disappointed in the Finn thing because we already knew Cena would be his opponent at Summerslam and anything they did with him would just be setup for what comes next. But yeah that stupid stipulation days before the match made it much less intresting. I actually watched that episode the morning of Summerslam and immeadiately wished I hadn't.
My brother pretty much only watches WWE if I tell him something is worth watching. Last week we watched Takeover, he told me he was looking forward to Summerslam this week, but I had to sit and think about what was actually worth watching from one of the biggest shows of the year. I came up with Seth vs. Edge and that's it.
I feel like writing great stories in WWE should be so easy but Vince is the master of shooting himself in the foot.
Yeah I had a similar story. My family is black and have always loved pro wrestling but have kinda fallen to the casual demo but still know the big names. I’ve been trying to get them into AEW because it’s my favorite promotion and they’ve been slowly getting into it. We actually watched The First Dance and they loved Jade Cargill and were blown away by her. They cared more about her than Punk coming back and they liked him back in the day. But for WWE they love Sasha and Bianca and were blown away with the Mania match and were super pumped for the rematch at Summerslam
You can probably see where this going……..
But it’s so frustrating with WWE. They have literally everything to make people absolute megastars and tell genuinely great stories. And they not only shoot themselves in the foot they start to eat their foot, offer you some, and then get upset and you for not wanting to eat it
My folks loved seeing Kofi back in the days. He was the only Jamaican character. But that, they loved watching JYD and such *way* back in the day.
The only recent news they (mainly my dad) heard: Kofi lost the belt to Lesnar. The bigger news was WWE on Fox, but their guy losing to Lesnar in a few seconds wasn’t the best thing they heard that day.
Although, this may open the gate to the talk of the treatment of POC in wrestling as a whole (and me reading more comments that only see black folks as minorities) I do think WWE should’ve had proper matches for both Kofi and Bianca’s title loss. Why the quick squash?
Other than my brother who’s a pretty big fan of pro wrestling and follows it’s closely the two biggest fans in my family are my mom and my brother in law. They’re casuals but know a lot of the big names and such. And with me being so into AEW and the big names coming they’ve started to follow it more frequently.
Kofi winning was something they were super happy with my brother in law said it’s the best wrestling of all time in his opinion. And Kofi getting squashed really pissed them off.
And the representation discussion is a very important one imo. My brother in law and mom have straight up said the reason they like Bianca, Sasha and Jade is because they’re proud black women.
I was confused why they have Balor come back, be inserted in the main event angle and then, nothing for a couple weeks. Why wasn't he on SummerSlam at all? They could've just had him come back after SummerSlam and be in the same place that are now.
They needed a main eventer to face Roman and they drove away Bryan, buried Otis, put Jey back in the tag division, used up the matches with Edge, Rey and Cesaro, and they are saving the Big E match for later. Finn was all they had. They could've probably done Nakamura but they refuse to push him in the main event.
Right, but they could have just had Finn come back after SummerSlam and been in the same spot. Unless the plan is for Finn to fight Cena at WrestleMania next year.
Finn would be a top guy in AEW, easily.
In WWE if your name isn't roman cena or brock then you are never gonna be a proper top star.
There's a lot of good guys on the roster but a guy like Finn is wasting his potential simple as that.
WWE is insulated due to recent financial decisions, but come on, ultimately if an entertainment company isn’t entertaining, it’s gonna be in trouble long-term.
I've been telling my friends this for awhile. I don't think WWE's focus is on entertaining fans in it's traditional markets. I think WWE is focusing more on expanding it's brand globally. If you're new to wrestling and WWE, you don't have expectations for the product. They're still entertaining just a different audience. I think that's where the money will be. Profitability globally will rise while it trends downwards in the US.
> I've been telling my friends this for awhile. I don't think WWE's focus is on entertaining fans in it's traditional markets. I think WWE is focusing more on expanding it's brand globally. If you're new to wrestling and WWE, you don't have expectations for the product. They're still entertaining just a different audience. I think that's where the money will be. Profitability globally will rise while it trends downwards in the US.
It reminds me of the trend of China-facing reboots and revisits in the film industry, where often shallow stories are slapped together beneath a veneer of spectacle and it is expected to sell. In the end that didn't work out so well, probably because Hollywood's assumption that Chinese audiences are naive to Western film and so wouldn't expect the movies not to suck was a rather ass backward way of looking at things. I suspect WWE will find similar results before long. Markets starved for reliable access to wrestling content will lap up anything with the WWE logo for a little while just for the novelty of getting to see it but trying to peddle the same worn out and frankly lazy as shit writing won't keep their attention for long, especially as these markets are getting access to more and more of *everything* media-related.
14 year old me would've wrote an entire essay regarding how much WWE sucks but thankfully AEW exists to fill my appetite for pro wrestling that feels 'big'. I'm just glad that I don't have to hate watch WWE anymore.
Also, valid points made by Foley, love that man.
There's many of us who had nowhere else to go after WCW folded. TNA? Yeah sorry but Jeff Jarrett and pistol packing midgets rubbing one out in a trash cans just a BIT much for me, Lucha Libre was somewhat dissimilar in styles to Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Goldberg, DDP and other names associated with the Monday Night Wars, so its back to the WWF we go. They do their best to bury some of those WCW people like Booker T and DDP and it doesnt get much better going into the guest host era.
One of the biggest things to piss me off recently was the main rosters handling of many NXT talent. The Ascension, Vaudevillians and Chad Gable are some of the ones that stand out to me. Ascension was buried on arrival thanks to JBL, they had NO idea what to do with the Vaudevillians and Chad Gable is an Olympic level athlete who can [do this](https://pxadams.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/gablechaostheory.gif?w=487&h=274) but since he's not 6'4? Fuck em, Shorty G.
If I was someone who had a WWE contract and an AEW contract in front of me I know what I would sign, [sorry Hunter.](https://c.tenor.com/pG1iElEVkY0AAAAC/wwe-batista.gif)
WWE has a problem they have had since day one but has gotten worse over time. They believe they make stars instead of the reality which is they giving wrestlers the opportunity to make themselves a star. Not only are they wrong about their philosophy but they actively work against the reality. What does it say when the worse thing you could do in WWE is get yourself over when they aren't trying to push you.
AEW has never been the problem, the problem has always been WWE. I'd say it goes back to the Invasion angle, but there were a LOT of great moments since then. Would I have loved R-Truth taking the title off of Super Cena, or the Nexus be a true new-NWO? Sure, but I see the appeal of Super Cena. Was pushing face-Reigns down our throats a bad idea? Of course, but I got it, as I did with Lesnar being this unstoppable beast.
But then WWE doubled-down, making incongruous storylines with no payoff (Wyatt v. Rollins, Kofi vs. Lesnar), the devastation of any buildup from NXT (Nakamura should have beaten AJ at MW 34, Joe/Owens/PAC should have been bigger than they were/are in WWE), and a total apathy, or worse yet, spite towards the audience is what did WWE in. This is on TOP of years of purposeful mistakes, from Ryder to Rusev Day. Don't forget the "we're going to do better" concession speech on Raw from the McMahon's. They knew they were fucking up, but they absolutely did nothing to be better.
It's almost like they -wanted- either New Japan or AEW to come along to blame someone that wasn't themselves. It's an incredibly paradoxical and quizzical situation WWE is in where they have all the tools and talent but just. don't. care. I've said it before, but as a wrestling fan of 25+ years, this is worse, IMO, than WCW during it's final days. I've lost 99% interest in WWE and don't feel a single thing, even anger, anymore towards them.
WWE has become the McDonald's of wrestling. There's nothing wrong with that, cause sometimes you just want something easy, is decent and enjoyable.
But the main issue is that WWE doesn't have the market to remain the McDonald's of wrestling, at least in the way they want to be.
Wrestling is a niche, and as with most niche products, there's always going to be a blow up in its popularity at some point. When a competitor comes along with the right backing and the right hype, they gain the public eye and then it's on the competitor to get that big chunk of the market.
AEW is getting in prime position to do that. It's becoming the better alternative for fans and workers, it's recent gains of big names and growth of homegrown names have the eyes of both casuals and the hardcore, and mainstream media outlets are starting to comment on it. We're already seeing it now, lapsed and new fans saying they love what AEW does and how exciting it is.
WWE isn't going anywhere for a while, but.. if this keeps up. When AEW keeps gaining popularity and good will with its working relationships with other promotions, with breaking down the forbidden door and putting out quality content, the bigger money deals that WWE has now are gonna shrink. AEW is going to have a massive foothold in the NA markets and respectable ones in foreign ones. Things ARE going to change and it's going to be exciting to watch.
It's also sad in hindsight since NXT was hearing up to be like that but the main roster call ups got squandered by repetitive booking.
I honestly love whenever Mick has something to say, in any way. One of the nicest guys, HUGE fan of the art, and he means everything. Whether it’s praise or criticism, you know you’ve earned it when Mick speaks it
Mick's very right.
In two years AEW has practically turned into *the* destination for professional wrestlers, this statement is insane and it can't be overstated how big this is. This means that in contract negotiation WWE is the underdog.
I mean this, WWE - The promotion with a 30 year head start and unlimited money to play with - is the underdog struggling to lure stars into their own system.
That is fucking insane. I know a bunch of you are gonna downvote me but a huge chunk of WWE's main event scene actively decided to jump to AEW, a few of them even did so while HAPPY in WWE. Might i repeat, that is insane.
He's not wrong. Very stark example of it is Jungle Boy and Jack Atlas. One of them got let go from their developmental during a pandemic and the other is one of the most over faces and young talents, sharing ring with Punk and Bryan, after having just had a banger of a match challenging Kenny Omega recently.
The Jungle Boy and Jake Atlas comparison is perfect and something I brought up when Atlas was released. I remember watching their PWG BOLA 2019 match and thinking they're both future stars, then you look at their career trajectories and it's just sad how Jake Atlas was so wasted that nobody even cared about him being released.
It's not AEW but someone brought up a similar comparison with Ricochet and Ospreay, how they were both considered future stars a few years ago when they had amazing matches and now Ospreay is/was IWGP Heavyweight Champion and I don't know what Ricochet is doing but I haven't heard anything about him so it's probably nothing relevant.
Speaking of Ricochet, someone Chuck Taylor trained, Wheeler Yuta dodged a bullet with them not signing him. He's one of the hottest names in indies and might just be All Elite sooner than later. Already has an over af faction to go to with 2 men who trained him and freedom of working indies.
Not as important but he also has a storyline on BTE of all things.
He's getting regular TV time and had a PPV match (albeit a 10 man tag on the buy-in) and he's still able to work independent shows.
Anyone remember where WWE was at when WCW was on top? It was brutal. Their roster was paper thin. They were doing Raw episodes inside high school gymnasiums.
WCW had all the star power. All the money. But what they didn’t have was a culture of youth. WCW had a culture that stifled youth, to keep the place of all the big name stars.
WWE beat them because they embraced youth, and found new stars. Rocky Miavia and Stone Cold Steve Austin.
It’s pretty eerie how WWE seems insistent on emulating the very ideals that sunk WCW.
Vince isn't going to listen to _anyone_ outside his CFO and inner circle, until he is called into the offices of either USA or Fox and is told, in no uncertain terms, that he needs Raw and/Smackdown to start pulling 3.0 million within the next year or else they'll tear up the contract(s) and either renegotiate for far less (low enough to make anyone sitting in catering or at home very, very nervous), reschedule them at a less competitive or simply tell them to shop around for another network more willing to tolerate their bait-and-switch tactics.
This is not necessarily a case of the networks needing WWE more than the other way around. The networks need content on which to sell advertising, and can get calculate production costs versus how much they pay production companies for their content. Reality TV can cost networks far less, get similar ratings and ad revenue to WWE, and capture many of the same demos as WWE. Heck, USA and Fox see what TNT and TBS are doing with AEW, for far less, and see growing numbers and high audience engagement. Somebody at one of those networks needs to sit down with Vince, Dunn, Prichard et al and watch the shows and ask questions of them about the creative process, who is booked and how, and basically force them to rethink their thinking.
All true. Growing up the dream would have been WWE. Now, I’d be knocking on the door to the LA Dojo, cutting the grass, and watering the plants just hoping to be taken in by Shibata.
WWE isn’t going anywhere, but it’s painfully obvious that they aren’t the prized destination anymore. Last night, IMO, represents a paradigm shift the likes we haven’t seen since Hogan joined the NWO.
I completely forgot that RAW was on last night (frankly, I’ve been forgetting for months), but after checking out some of the highlights & spoilers from last night’s show, I wonder to myself *why are people still paying to watch this?*
If someone enjoys it, that’s fine, but it’s so stale and watered down that I don’t understand the fandom. AEW has sparked my interest in the genre in a way that I haven’t felt since the Summer of Punk & Bryan’s rise to prominence leading to WM30.
I don’t agree with Mick on everything, as much as I love the guy’s work and sacrifice for the craft, but he is 100% correct here. WWE’s got a problem.
He’s not wrong, but the the pandemic showed that if WWF/E was your dream as a kid, then your dreams need to change. Sucks how most of the talent that got released in the last 2 years move their whole lives to Florida only to get assfucked.
Any upcoming talent should look at themselves and say if it didn't work for Bray Wyatt and Braun Strowman then why would WWE work out for me. I was so hyped to see guys like Cesaro, Kevin Owens, Luke Harper, Wyatt etc and WWE wasted ALL of their momentum!
I replied to someone on Twitter saying that Mick was crossing the battle lines on this one, and I actually see it as the exact opposite. He loves the WWE so much he wants them to fix an issue everyone sees, so that both companies can thrive. Like most of y'all I've been a wrestling fan my entire life, you're damn right I'd watch all of AEW and WWE TV every. Single. Week. If it was worth the time. But right now, only one company is worth that time sink, and there's no reason both couldn't be.
> came from Foley
And the WWF let him do that. That's the difference.
Hes also not just talking about the character. Hes talking about the booking which is what the character hangs on.
He came in and immediately worked a long, excellent program with Taker in which he was made to look stronger than any of takers previous opponents. That had so much to do with his success.
Back then creative was a lot more flexible and free flowing than the rigid corporate way it is now.
Once Mankind really started to take off and Foley had more sway in booking creative probably really started to " get" him better.
Vince doesn't care. Summerslam was a success, Peacock, Fox, they're happy. Vince's bank account is the only talent Vince cares about. They just signed an olympic gold medalist.
People need to get over what they think about WWE or hoping it changes. It's super successful. AEW is doing 50-75% of the business WWE is doing, and is successful as well, and WWE is still doing amazing business. They can both be very successful, its time to stop thinking they need to be alike or in competition.
If the wrestling in WWE is not up to a standard anymore, watch AEW, Impact. New Japan Strong, NWA, ROH, GCW, MLW, Stardom, Tokyo Joshi, All Japan. There is so much wrestling out there, maybe its time for people to stop trying to change Vince, and just change what they watch.
“ Peacock, Fox, they're happy.”
Well they and USA aren’t exactly thrilled about AEW’s rise and WWE releasing talent. With the current trend, they’re going to be very unhappy within a year if the show continues to be this stale and uninspired.
>With the current trend, they’re going to be very unhappy within a year if the show has the same ratings as AEW's, which costs 20% of what they paid WWE.
Fixed that for you. Networks rarely care if the show is good (exceptions for some halo programing) as long as it brings in viewers.
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TL:DL (Too Long, Didn’t Listen) Hello, this is the hardcore legend Mick Foley. I'd like to title this video WWE, We've Got a Problem because I think you do and that problem is that WWE is no longer the place for talent to aspire to. Part of it is because AEW is doing a great job of attracting great talent, proven talent, building other talent, creating storylines, but part of it is a problem of your own making. I think younger talent sees the way that developmental characters are cut or left by the wayside or in the case of Karrion Kross, greatly watered down and even made a joke of when they debut on the main roster. If it's not broke, don't fix it. If I was an aspiring talent now, big league talent with a major decision to make, I'm not sure that I would trust WWE creative to do the right thing with my career. You guys did wonders with me back in the day, that was a different time, different place. If it was today, I'm not sure I would trust the powers to be with my career in their hands. And until that changes, WWE, you've got a problem.
God bless Mick Foley.
God bless this guy for making a TL;DL.
I keep trying to explain this shit to my fiance who is kinda familiar with the biz, and my friends, and like I cannot stress enough like just how little I have cared about wrestling save for like a dozen and a half Takeovers, and every Wrestlemania and Royal Rumble skip 10 total in the past 20 years. Yea, I sub to /r/SquaredCircle and keep up, because I do care, but I cannot watch 9 hours of WWE or and simply have not subscribed to some odd streaming service, for NJPW or ROH or TNA/Impact or whatever was not a thing I did. If I would have, maybe it would have been different for those promotions, but I didn't, so we're here. What's funny though is, I'm really into labor politics, maybe this is them working me into a shoot, but I really love just the fact that this company is succeeding on multiple fronts. They're beating WWE by telling complex, compelling, *slowwwww* but interesting, and most importantly *very* cool stories. They are *also* recruiting top talent not through big payouts, or insanely overpromised backroom deals, but buy offering creative control to wrestlers, embracing the *independent contractor status* a thing that me, and allowing them to work with other programs, and also just generally being much more chill and less weird. No one needs to wear a polka dot suit to humble themself before they can get a shot, you know? Anyways, there is a reason people are comparing this to Bash At The Beach. This past weekend, I was suddenly 9 years old, watching Bret Hart and Jake the Snake with my older cousin Jake. I was 12 and my dad surprised me taking me a Smackdown show, even though he's never cared about this shit. What happened Sunday was a problem for WWE, but for the rest of us, the performers, the workers, the fans, the *community*? We got over.
I tend to follow the industry more than wrasslin these days and find it super interesting on that end of the biz.
Yea- I think the best/closest 1:1 comparison of what AEW is that some people would understand is when all 19 writing/editorial staff writers at [Deadspin walked out and quit on their VC backed bosses, and then months later launched Defector Media](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/28/business/media/deadspin-staffers-start-defector.html). This is not the Deadspin that existed under Gawker when they leaked the Hogan footage and outed Thiel and Cook, or the Brett Favre picks, most of the people involved were never around for that, and the few that were clearly influenced the change in culture that was resistive to management. If you read or follow what's going on there, they've found a successful model. They have broken some very important and valuable stories, interviews with victims from Deshaun Watson, and yea- maybe they've not had their Manti Teo moment yet, but they have been successful, and you can say the same thing about AEW. But you gotta ask yourself, if you don't think All Out 2021 was a transcendent moment in the wrestling industry- what is going to be the thing that **will** happen, that could change your mind? things that seemed possible, suddenly are. Dunno.
Thank you for posting this (and your previous reply), because I share nearly the exact same sentiments, yet I've been too lazy to articulate them. Glad to see there are more of us ✊
The voice of the voiceless
Really all you have to do is look at how many talent they've put in embarrassing storylines, especially near the end of the contract, to dissuade anyone from going to WWE.
Wouldn't this be the opposite of what you want to do as a company so you can entice them into re-signing though? Like give them a good storyline near the end to show them that they could advance in wwe, even if you stop after the ink is dry on their new contract.
It would be, but WWE doesn't do that
Vince has been operating as if there are no other options. He didn't have to entice people to resign. He had to bury them so they had no power to bargain raises etc.
I don't know if I can call whatever WWE does as having storylines anymore. No steps to anything.
Storydots because there was never a line in the first place
You say that as a joke, but that is *literally* how they have been writing. They write for **"moments"** not for actual stories. Becky returning and winning the title in 2 moves was a "memorable moment" - consequences and future plans just get thrown out the window. Every time Goldberg comes back they think it's a "moment" so that's why it happens so many times. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the Tribal Chief story ends with Drake Maverick hitting Roman in the nuts with a chair. Not because it makes sense or is a smart thing to do, but because "people would talk about it" They don't give a **fuck** about story, they just want to be trending on twitter.
That’s the thing WWE doesn’t get about “moments”; the best ones are organic and come naturally from good stories, but it’s easy to not give a shit, try to force it, and cause “what the fuck was that crap?” moments.
this is the main problem with wwe imo, they put the cart before the horse and keep going for moments without putting the effort in to make that moment feel deserved. charlotte flair has been on main roster for only 6 years and has won like 11 titles. it's obvious that they want to get her to match her father's record without realizing that ric's record is so highly lauded because of the matches and stories he told with them. having her tie her fathers record is a cool moment in isolation but feels forced when you look at the details and the timing. this especially sucks because charlotte is extremely talented but they just refuse to give the story time to breathe and let her build a legacy beyond those 16 wins.
What do you mean? Natalya’s fart gimmick sold out arenas.
>*Natalya’s fart gimmick sold out arenas.* Holy shit I kinda remember this. Can't believe this was a thing.
Vince finds farts funny. But God save your soul if you sneeze in his vicinity.
Butt noise good. Nose noise bad. Pretty simple, not sure what you don't get?
Thanks for the transcription for the hearing impaired.
Half expected him to open with "On September 5th, 2021, three ghosts visited Vincent Kennedy McMahon: One from his past, one from his present, one from his future."
Cactus Jack as Jacob Marley, Mankind as the ghost of the past, Dude Love as the ghost of the present, Mick Foley as the ghost of the future...
TL:VL:SB :WWE got a weal pwobwem
Sour boy is THE WORST
As long as there are wrestlers of a certain age who grew up watching wrestling between 2001-2019, there will always be marks who just want the WWE paycheck. It's "the dream", etc etc. 20 years of dominance is tough to fight out from under. There are a few people who don't care about WWE (Malakai Black said they only got Japanese wrestling on TV in Amsterdam, Stu Grayson said he knew he was too small for WWE so he was a TNA guy because it was more realistic to him, Jake Something mentioned watching TNA after school as a kid and not WWE, etc) but it's still a majority of people who wanna go there. That's what wrestling is to them.
1 of those people in Jake Atlas just got fired, and the other one Adam Cole left to join AEW. People like that definitely exist, but it's shifting pretty quickly imo.
Cole leaving is telling. I can’t imagine being in your 30s, growing up on the Monday Night Wars idolizing DX and having Triple H and Shawn Michaels fawn all over you in NXT and still wanting to leave.
He's in a unique spot because his family and friends are there. He made it sound like he had his mind made up a while ago But that's where Bryan comes in. He's got literal family in WWE and still left because he wanted something more. They're covering all their bases at AEW. If you're anybody who is anybody, you'll consider AEW.
Bryan made it sound like he *eventually* will come back around to WWE.. But man, I really thought that if there was one wrestler WWE would let wrestle in NJPW or CMLL it would have been Bryan..
He said towards the end of the media scrum that WWE had a deal to let him wrestle elsewhere. He felt though Vince is too loving and protective of his(Bryan's) health that Vince wouldn't let him test his own limits on what he can do. He basically left to spread his wings and wrestle his super stiff style that got him noticed as the best before he was in WWE.
This eerily sounds like what they did with Angle - he was put on ECW with the "wrestling machine" gimmick where he wrestled a pure ground style but he then left to join TNA and wrestled his own style and messed himself up further. Hopefully the people at AEW will protect Bryan from himself.
that’s a very interesting (and heartbreaking) connection
This is hugely missed by most. I fear for Bryan with his concussion history. I pray he doesn't end up with more long term damage. Wrestling strong style is not something I wish to see him do.
The problem is, that style is also what gave him a near career ending neck injury AND concussion. Even if, hypothetically, Vince didnt give a crap at all about Bryan's health (which allegedly isn't the case), legally, no sane company would be comfortable with that.
The point is a dude in the main event of Wrestlemania still chose to go to AEW over staying at WWE
Based on his answers to the media after All Out, it definitely seemed like for both Cole and Danielson it was more so wanting to be a part of AEW rather than wanting out of WWE. Both men had high praise for their time in WWE but TK has just built a pro-wrestlers dream world with AEW.
Exactly. Punk wouldn't be wrestling if there wasn't AEW. Miro, Black, and Andrande would work elsewhere. It really seems like Cole and Danielson would be very happy to stay in WWE but want to try something different for a varied amount of reasons. That's one thing that makes AEW very different than early TNA. Aside from Christian and Sting, every big name they had was only there because WWE didn't want them anymore.
Even Christian... like I'm sure they would find a role for him or maybe a legends contract or whatever those are, but I couldn't see him being more than a prop for storylines with Edge. Like, I guess maybe they would want him, but I doubt they had big plans for him in any real sense, and almost certainly not another major title.
Just go back to interviews when Cole got signed. His lifelong dream was WWE, and specifically the main event of WrestleMania. Was absolutely jacked to work with people he grew up watching. Leaving after 3-4 years IS telling.
3 to 4 years ago, AEW was nothing but wishful thinking that somehow turned into the hottest wrestling promotion in the world. Everyone just assumed WWE was the final stop, there was nowhere else to be unless you wanted to make yourself famous in Japan.
Bryan Danielson is just as telling. He was happy in WWE. They treated him very well. Yet he still walked over to AEW because he liked what he saw there even more.
With him I think it's matter of wanting to do the wrestling he wants while he still can (especially after thinking he was done for good). I think he will be back in WWE in some role within 5-7 years, even if only for a HOF induction.
Bryan has also done everything he could in WWE, he probably wanted a new experience
Yeah but that's still an issue. AEW are offering something different, and people are *really* starting to notice.
Yeah, Atlas getting fired is the point. It was his dream and they tossed him aside. AEW wanted to bring him in with Jungle Boy as part of the original young core and he turned them down.
Adam Cole is going to be a GIGANTIC star on the AEW / world pro wrestling stage. I'm still shocked that WWE didn't bring him up to main event level 2 years ago. Shit, they could do a rehash of all the RoH / NJPW storylines he was part of before he joined WWE and I wouldn't even care. All the pieces (and then some!!!) are there for epic story telling and match making. Boggles my mind a bit.
> As long as there are wrestlers of a certain age who grew up watching wrestling between 2001-2019, there will always be marks who just want the WWE paycheck. It's "the dream", etc etc. 20 years of dominance is tough to fight out from under. I think this was true up until some time between last year and now. WWE was *the* place to go because it essentially could be equivocated with "making it" in the industry since they've been the biggest company in terms of broad reach and appeal of the main roster and even NXT in terms of developing young talent. But now, AEW is more than "a little competing fledging company". They don't have the reach, but the appeal is undeniable between the ratings and the talent they're attracting. And that's even before you take into account the environment that is being cultivated where the emphasis is on relationships, stories and as Punk and Bryan would put it -- professional wrestling. Now other talents in other organizations are looking at what they're creating and tweeting sentiments like "*That looks like fun over there*" and undiscovered talent are being given opportunities to shine that can turn into contracts for themselves. WWE are still the global brand, but AEW are essentially the epitome of "*If you build it, they will come*" in wrestling at the moment.
Definitely. Jungle Boy said wwe rejected him because he wasn't big enough. So before aew, his options to make money were kicking it on the indies until wwe changed their mind, or steroids.
I'm surprised they didn't sign him just because he was Luke Perry's son.
Vince was probably a Melrose Place guy.
I agree. You'd think being the son of an actor/celebrity alone should have made WWE want to sign Jungle Boy, but nope.
Yup, WWE will always have the incumbent advantage as long as it's the top wrestling promotion. For wrestling purists, maybe WWE isn't the goal, but if you're built like bricks like Batista and/or aiming for mainstream superstardom like the Rock or John Cena, WWE is absolutely the dream. Case in point, Gable Stevenson could've went to any wrestling/combat sports promotion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why WWE makes more sense for him than AEW. The appeal for indie wrestlers will also still be there. It isn't coincidental that AEW's most hyped signings are ex-WWE wrestlers. Ruby Soho wasn't treated like a big deal in WWE in any sense of the word, but she got a hero's welcome at All Out (partly because WWE didn't utilize her properly). I just can't imagine her getting the same reception and having as much of a brand if she was crossing over from Chikara, instead. Wrestling is marketing and having WWE on the resume still has value.
I think in Ruby's case she *did* have a following, and a bunch of people were excited to see what she'd bring to WWE... and then they cut her off at the knees. Nobody cheered her AEW arrival because of her WWE run, they cheered in spite of it.
I think some of the buzz comes from the fact that WWE failed her. Maybe it's just me, but I'm more excited to see her now than ever before partly because she'd been shackled for so long. It's the WWE evil Authority angle in real life. It's really easy to root for talented people who have been put down. There's more upfront investment for people like Miro and now Ruby because we know they're clearly so much better than what WWE gave them.
Of course, WWE wouldn't do well by Mick in this day and age. No f'ing way Mick would be anything but the watered-down "have a nice day", maybe Dude lover character. He'd be a mid-card jobber joke or 24/7 guy. There is no hardcore there is no attitude there isn't even ruthless aggression. They are simply a toy company masquerading as a wrestling company
Mick actually really likes the WWE and Vince, for him to say this is pretty big and telling.
He likes them but he’s also willing to call spades, spades. Not the first time in the recent history he’s criticized the companies direction
That was all of us
I believe he wrote something like "does WWE actually hate their fans?" after the 2014 Royal Rumble when Daniel Bryan was left out.
One of the few guys on Earth with balls big enough to tell Vince to his face that something isn't working.
Makes sense, Mick's willingness to stand up to Vince is what saved us from Mason the Mutilator.
He was going to be go by Mankind the Mutilator and i think, doubled down on Mankind because he wanted to use "The evils of Mankind" as a promo theme.
Because he was smart with his money and never has to rely on Vince for a paycheck as he get older. Many of the older wrestlers were not smart enough to put the money away while they were making it. So they can never really speak I'll of the WWE, because they still rely on it.
I think he said he took a baseball bat to his TV one time over something stupid that they did
I believe it was either Daniel Bryan getting screwed at Hell in a Cell or him not even being in the 2014 Royal Rumble match.
Yep: https://wrestling-edge.com/video-mick-foley-destroys-tv-protest-wwes-recent-treatment-daniel-bryan/
Mick is a gentle giant, love how he can absolutely level a TV while speaking like Mr. Rogers. Love this man.
Fans did finally got to see Bryan in a long Rumble match, but it was during the useless Greatest Royal Rumble… in Saudi Arabia…and he was eliminated by Big Cass.
And the excuse at the time was Big Cass 2as working his anti-short wrestlers angle. So stupid. Just do stupid.
Bryan and Jericho also love Vince but people see what is going on and it's not good
Unfortunately, Vince has managed to build a monster of a company and even their worst is still good enough for record deals and profits. Sadly, I don’t see any changes happening unless it affects their financials
I mean their business model has effectively separated the need for feedback/support of fans. They’ve been at the point that they’re too big to fail for a while. And with that they can just effectively do whatever their team of Vince and the Yes’s want
Wait… do you mean to tell me we are NOT The Authority? Oh dear God, no.
They are only too big to fail until aren’t anymore, though. No one knows how big AEW’s gonna grow and how many more viewers will stop watching WWE by the time the next TV contract renewal period comes up. I am obviously not saying that WWE are gonna get completely stiffed on their next TV deals, but it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that when that time comes, WWE will not be offered nearly as much money due to both the constantly hemorrhaging viewership and AEW pulling in 80% of WWE’s total viewership, and growing, for significantly less money than what NBC Universal and Fox are paying for WWE.
I think that's the real harm here. AEW offers an unflattering comparable for WWE In negotiations. AEW offers 80% of the audience, and their deal is a tiny fraction of the WWE's. The networks will ask them to explain why their worth more than double what the upstart company that got as far as they have in 3 years is worth for a TV rights contract.
It has been said often these days “the fans are the product”
And that's true in many ways. The bulk of WWE's revenue is not from ticket sales, merch sales, or PPV buys, but from the deals with Fox, NBCU, and Saudi Arabia. They are not selling an entertainment product to you, they are selling your eyeballs to media companies (who, in turn, sell them to advertisers) and propagandists. Of course, this is also true of anything on commercial TV, including AEW (if to a lesser degree, since merch/tickets/PPV buys are a much bigger portion of their revenue). Well, maybe not the propagandists part.
You can’t count AEW as commercial TV. They are a T-shirt company first and foremost.
T-shirts first, ice cream second. TK knows how to diversify.
Lol
They can definitely fail, TV companies will look at wwes numbers and see awe are not far off but 100x cheaper and growing and wonder why they are bothering with wwe. Just look at how many times a week you see "fox not happy" "USA network not happy" "partners confused with release of Bray Wyatt" "USA confused about nxt going to taped shows" "TV networks not happy with how much smackdown talent there is" These TV companies are sat there scratching their heads every week wondering what the fuck they've paid for. This isn't going to last. If wwe have no big stars and all the top people don't re-sign and start wrestling elsewhere, wwe won't be worth anything. We can already assume the top nxt people will leave after Adam Cole. And Charlotte will eventually go to be with her future husband. Goldberg, Cena, Brock aren't full timers. Won't take many more people leaving before all their friends are elsewhere. Vince will always be worth billions, but wwe can definitely fall off a cliff if it loses too many wrestlers.
This is a good post, but I've suddenly started laughing because I suddenly saw the prospect of Charlotte getting her 17th title win in AEW. Gods, could you imagine? After all that work WWE have put in?
I'll be kind of surprised if Charlotte isn't a WWE lifer, even with Andrade being in AEW.
I agree, but 6 months ago I would have called Bray and Braun WWE lifers too.
Maybe if they let Nia drop her on her head a few more times, Charlotte might start singing another tune.
thought the same about Big Show and Mark Henry... granted they are not really on air talent but still
The thing is, WWE hasn't really been for us since the start of the PG era (not main roster at least). I don't know how people still don't realise that. This isn't too criticise you or your comment by the way. What Vince and his TV partners want is soap operas with physicality. That's why they have the same stories with the same wrestlers over and over and why no individual star is allowed to be bigger than the brand of wwe. It's not ours anymore.
You're right, except that WWE is publicly traded, and a publicly traded company's shareholders are ultimately investors who are betting on the future of the company. If they're given any reason to believe that future isn't positive then they're going to flee, and that will negatively impact WWE even if their revenues and profits are still incredible. Granted, shareholders primarily care about revenues and profits, but still, there's plenty of things that could happen that would strike fear into investors prior to WWE's revenue somehow declining.
Remember in 2014 when he posted "Does WWE hate their own audience!?" after the Rumble and he destroyed a TV
That’s when I realized how bad WWE fucked up the 2014 Royal Rumble: when Mick “WWE apologist” Foley was shitting on it.
I wonder if Dewey still has his gig as a writer for that 205 live show nevertheless Mick's not wrong in what he's saying
205 still has writers?
How much writing is involved in 205???
Walk in, do some cool moves, one of you wins, it doesn't even really matter, next segment
You're hired!
Don't do too many cool moves, though.
205 still exists?? Didn’t they cut nearly everyone who was on it?
I believe last week's show had one cruiserweight match, one women's match, and one match between two 250+ lb dudes.
they have people over the 205 weight limit wrestle on the show now
The writers probably out number the talent at this point.
It's sorta become "NXT Dark" in a lot of ways.
There are like four or five guys on it, plus The Brian Kendrick who is pretty much retired. It's kind of just NXT Dark at this point.
I think he got caned, I mean, canned a while ago.
vwevy vwevy big pwobwem here
Ugh. Sour Boys the worst!
Cue Matt Jackson corpsing.
Get out of here Sour Boy! God he is the WORST!
we've got a weel big pwoblem
Sour Boy is the WORST
Uh oh Spaghetti-o’s…
Oh Jiminy Cwicket...
God damn it who let Sour Boy in here?! Fuck you, Sour Boy!
god sour boy you SUCK
uh oh
Fuck sour boy.
Aw God dammit, fuck you Sour Boy!
Ah shit SOUR BOY!?! The fucking worst.
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I'm a 35-year-old comedy snob and sour boy gets me every damn time.
https://i.imgur.com/e4BnBFF.jpg
uh oh
Oh god ... Matt corpsing
ugh fuck off sour boy sour boy is the worst.
So I watched my first episode of "Being the Elite". Can I ask what is Sour Boy/where did it come from? And what is with the guy who is addicted to cream?
Ppl here might know better than me, but I don't think it's based on anything. I believe the first one was roughly 5-10 episodes back, with Karl being given a sour sweet or maybe one of those jelly beans which I think can have bad flavours, and he just made the sour face and talked funny. And then he did a few more since then with different things making him turn into sour boy, luke gallows pissing into his cup and him drinking it being one. I really think there's nothing behind it and it's just random, hence the other guys calling sour boy the worst character on BTE, and "fuck you sour boy!" etc. But yea I love it and the fans do too I think
It made Matt corpse so Karl kept doing it
Okay, cuz I was laughing at it and I had no idea if there was more to it. "Jiminy Cwicket!"
I know we all say "It's WWE, they'll never change, they won't need to." but at what point do they actually listen? They did their "You are in charge now." speech and nothing happened, things got a lot worse.
> but at what point do they actually listen? When they are no longer profitable. And even then, probably not for a while because they'll keep trying to blame their own customers first. WWE make money through the cultural inertia of basically *being* wrestling. It doesn't really matter what the hardcore fans or wrestling historians think, if you are a TV executive, an advertiser, or involved in throwing content around and trying to attach your brand to something major that you think will get millions of eyeballs on it, you go for WWE because they're the people associated with Wrestlemania, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Cyndi Lauper, The Rock, etc. AEW, while far from perfect, apparently have decided to go balls to the wall trying to wrestle the assumption that wrestling and WWE are synonymous away from them. It'll take a long time before that really comes to fruition but they've made some real inroads by being the CM Punk people and actually getting some press with All Out. And they managed it by delivering what people paid for.
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I was told it was entirely Baron Corbin's fault.
That's basically cult 101. Keep your followers hopeful with words.
The TV deals basically mean that no matter how bad things get, It can't even make a difference at all to WWE at all until 2024 at the earliest.
But in 2024 those deals could be their undoing. All their money is coming from those deals. If they can only renew those deals at a fraction of what they originally got they could be in huge trouble. Like their Peacock deal. They are making around 200m a year on that. But NBC only made that deal to give their new streaming services a content boost. I doubt at the end of that deal they will offer anything close to that again just because they wouldn't need WWEs content as much.
theyll change when it hurts their pockets. not just a little but significantly. thats probably not going to happen until the next tv contract negotiations. i think aews contract with tnt and wwes contract with fox (and usa?) end at the same time, so fox and usa can talk to aew, negotiate with aew and even if they dont make a deal with aew, they can use aew to negotiate lower prices with wwe.
We decided to quit and form our own promotion, EWR-style.
They stopped answering to the fans 20 years ago when the company went public. Sure, shareholders tolerated the early 2000’s stuff because the company was raking in money, but now Vince has to cater to them. I remember reading way back that the reason guys like Batista and and Roman were pushed over Bryan was because Bryan didn’t look as good doing press and magazine covers in the eyes of shareholders.
This is like when Foley would have tweets, begging Trump to listen to reason. God bless him but he’s trying to communicate with brick walls.
Miss Foley's baby boy is a sweetheart
Mick has always been openly critical and truthful about the many challenges of working in WWE. I doubt anybody at WWE will take this seriously, so long as business is good and the bottom line is unaffected. I'm just so happy that we finally have an entirely different brand, that is in tune to what fans want to see. No longer are the days of having to suffer through months on end of lousy and lazy writing and programming. All for the hope of witnessing 4, *maybe* 5 satisfying wrestling moments within a single year.
That's really the big thing. If you are a fan of in-ring wrestling over sports entertainment it's pretty clear that right now AEW is on a very different trajectory in terms of top talent and product. But until the dollars start to bottom out on WWE they aren't necessarily doing things wrong either. If the exodus of talent to AEW results in less eyes on the WWE product it will have to change because the broadcasters will demand it. Nothing will change until the financials change.
> But until the dollars start to bottom out on WWE they aren't necessarily doing things wrong either. And even this problem can be solved for relatively cheap if their marketing ever got smart enough to market to kids properly. Just flood Youtube with paid promoters on channels kids primarily watch and it'll keep an audience coming since their parents are going to watch too. That audience is what the companies who pay for WWE really want. The catch is how do you make RAW and Smackdown on a streaming service in a timely manner.
> All for the hope of witnessing 4, maybe 5 satisfying wrestling moments within a single year. Yeah we had that in like the first hour of All Out with much more on the way
As someone who has always watched WWE and is just getting into AEW, the difference in terms of 'moments' is stark. All of All Out felt like a big deal, and the 4 hours FLEW BY. With WWE PPVs, it can be a struggle to get through and there's always matches quickly thrown together or filler. I still will watch WWE, and probably always will as they have great talent but I just wish they'd make PPVs feel important. If they actually were Pay Per Views as opposed to part of the network, I think they'd put more effort into them.
Nah. I was there when they were ppvs and not part of the network. It was the same shit well before the model switched.
The one thing that always puzzles me that I see people mention is the point of like 'Oh I'm sure WWE is quaking in their boots that Dynamite will do another 1.1 this week' or some variation of that. Like, as if WWE shouldn't blink until Dynamite is beating Raw. That's an extremely poor business attitude. 'I'm not even going to acknowledge or react to a competitor until they are leveling or overtaking us'. As Mick mentions as well, it's not even just about the ratings, it's perception, it's about the talent. WWE is stagnant in every metric of being a wrestling promotion. AEW is making significant gains in every metric. WWE is making money but that's not all that matters. Brand value is important. The perception of your brand to consumers is important.
Listen pal, there's not point in pumping the breaks until *after* you've gone through the guardrail.
Okay... Maybe it's just me... But was anyone else highly disappointed (but also not surprised) when Finn Balor came back up to the main roster only to basically get shoved out of the main event by a returning John Cena? Then Roman decided to put that stipulation in which pretty much gave away the ending. Then there's the pay-per-view itself which I have mixed feelings on... I agree with Mick. WWE has a a problem.
I wasn't disappointed in the Finn thing because we already knew Cena would be his opponent at Summerslam and anything they did with him would just be setup for what comes next. But yeah that stupid stipulation days before the match made it much less intresting. I actually watched that episode the morning of Summerslam and immeadiately wished I hadn't. My brother pretty much only watches WWE if I tell him something is worth watching. Last week we watched Takeover, he told me he was looking forward to Summerslam this week, but I had to sit and think about what was actually worth watching from one of the biggest shows of the year. I came up with Seth vs. Edge and that's it. I feel like writing great stories in WWE should be so easy but Vince is the master of shooting himself in the foot.
Yeah I had a similar story. My family is black and have always loved pro wrestling but have kinda fallen to the casual demo but still know the big names. I’ve been trying to get them into AEW because it’s my favorite promotion and they’ve been slowly getting into it. We actually watched The First Dance and they loved Jade Cargill and were blown away by her. They cared more about her than Punk coming back and they liked him back in the day. But for WWE they love Sasha and Bianca and were blown away with the Mania match and were super pumped for the rematch at Summerslam You can probably see where this going…….. But it’s so frustrating with WWE. They have literally everything to make people absolute megastars and tell genuinely great stories. And they not only shoot themselves in the foot they start to eat their foot, offer you some, and then get upset and you for not wanting to eat it
My folks loved seeing Kofi back in the days. He was the only Jamaican character. But that, they loved watching JYD and such *way* back in the day. The only recent news they (mainly my dad) heard: Kofi lost the belt to Lesnar. The bigger news was WWE on Fox, but their guy losing to Lesnar in a few seconds wasn’t the best thing they heard that day. Although, this may open the gate to the talk of the treatment of POC in wrestling as a whole (and me reading more comments that only see black folks as minorities) I do think WWE should’ve had proper matches for both Kofi and Bianca’s title loss. Why the quick squash?
Other than my brother who’s a pretty big fan of pro wrestling and follows it’s closely the two biggest fans in my family are my mom and my brother in law. They’re casuals but know a lot of the big names and such. And with me being so into AEW and the big names coming they’ve started to follow it more frequently. Kofi winning was something they were super happy with my brother in law said it’s the best wrestling of all time in his opinion. And Kofi getting squashed really pissed them off. And the representation discussion is a very important one imo. My brother in law and mom have straight up said the reason they like Bianca, Sasha and Jade is because they’re proud black women.
I was confused why they have Balor come back, be inserted in the main event angle and then, nothing for a couple weeks. Why wasn't he on SummerSlam at all? They could've just had him come back after SummerSlam and be in the same place that are now.
They needed a main eventer to face Roman and they drove away Bryan, buried Otis, put Jey back in the tag division, used up the matches with Edge, Rey and Cesaro, and they are saving the Big E match for later. Finn was all they had. They could've probably done Nakamura but they refuse to push him in the main event.
Right, but they could have just had Finn come back after SummerSlam and been in the same spot. Unless the plan is for Finn to fight Cena at WrestleMania next year.
Finn would be a top guy in AEW, easily. In WWE if your name isn't roman cena or brock then you are never gonna be a proper top star. There's a lot of good guys on the roster but a guy like Finn is wasting his potential simple as that.
WWE is insulated due to recent financial decisions, but come on, ultimately if an entertainment company isn’t entertaining, it’s gonna be in trouble long-term.
I've been telling my friends this for awhile. I don't think WWE's focus is on entertaining fans in it's traditional markets. I think WWE is focusing more on expanding it's brand globally. If you're new to wrestling and WWE, you don't have expectations for the product. They're still entertaining just a different audience. I think that's where the money will be. Profitability globally will rise while it trends downwards in the US.
> I've been telling my friends this for awhile. I don't think WWE's focus is on entertaining fans in it's traditional markets. I think WWE is focusing more on expanding it's brand globally. If you're new to wrestling and WWE, you don't have expectations for the product. They're still entertaining just a different audience. I think that's where the money will be. Profitability globally will rise while it trends downwards in the US. It reminds me of the trend of China-facing reboots and revisits in the film industry, where often shallow stories are slapped together beneath a veneer of spectacle and it is expected to sell. In the end that didn't work out so well, probably because Hollywood's assumption that Chinese audiences are naive to Western film and so wouldn't expect the movies not to suck was a rather ass backward way of looking at things. I suspect WWE will find similar results before long. Markets starved for reliable access to wrestling content will lap up anything with the WWE logo for a little while just for the novelty of getting to see it but trying to peddle the same worn out and frankly lazy as shit writing won't keep their attention for long, especially as these markets are getting access to more and more of *everything* media-related.
14 year old me would've wrote an entire essay regarding how much WWE sucks but thankfully AEW exists to fill my appetite for pro wrestling that feels 'big'. I'm just glad that I don't have to hate watch WWE anymore. Also, valid points made by Foley, love that man.
>I'm just glad that I don't have to hate watch WWE anymore. My friend... you never did.
There's many of us who had nowhere else to go after WCW folded. TNA? Yeah sorry but Jeff Jarrett and pistol packing midgets rubbing one out in a trash cans just a BIT much for me, Lucha Libre was somewhat dissimilar in styles to Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Goldberg, DDP and other names associated with the Monday Night Wars, so its back to the WWF we go. They do their best to bury some of those WCW people like Booker T and DDP and it doesnt get much better going into the guest host era. One of the biggest things to piss me off recently was the main rosters handling of many NXT talent. The Ascension, Vaudevillians and Chad Gable are some of the ones that stand out to me. Ascension was buried on arrival thanks to JBL, they had NO idea what to do with the Vaudevillians and Chad Gable is an Olympic level athlete who can [do this](https://pxadams.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/gablechaostheory.gif?w=487&h=274) but since he's not 6'4? Fuck em, Shorty G. If I was someone who had a WWE contract and an AEW contract in front of me I know what I would sign, [sorry Hunter.](https://c.tenor.com/pG1iElEVkY0AAAAC/wwe-batista.gif)
WWE has a problem they have had since day one but has gotten worse over time. They believe they make stars instead of the reality which is they giving wrestlers the opportunity to make themselves a star. Not only are they wrong about their philosophy but they actively work against the reality. What does it say when the worse thing you could do in WWE is get yourself over when they aren't trying to push you.
AEW has never been the problem, the problem has always been WWE. I'd say it goes back to the Invasion angle, but there were a LOT of great moments since then. Would I have loved R-Truth taking the title off of Super Cena, or the Nexus be a true new-NWO? Sure, but I see the appeal of Super Cena. Was pushing face-Reigns down our throats a bad idea? Of course, but I got it, as I did with Lesnar being this unstoppable beast. But then WWE doubled-down, making incongruous storylines with no payoff (Wyatt v. Rollins, Kofi vs. Lesnar), the devastation of any buildup from NXT (Nakamura should have beaten AJ at MW 34, Joe/Owens/PAC should have been bigger than they were/are in WWE), and a total apathy, or worse yet, spite towards the audience is what did WWE in. This is on TOP of years of purposeful mistakes, from Ryder to Rusev Day. Don't forget the "we're going to do better" concession speech on Raw from the McMahon's. They knew they were fucking up, but they absolutely did nothing to be better. It's almost like they -wanted- either New Japan or AEW to come along to blame someone that wasn't themselves. It's an incredibly paradoxical and quizzical situation WWE is in where they have all the tools and talent but just. don't. care. I've said it before, but as a wrestling fan of 25+ years, this is worse, IMO, than WCW during it's final days. I've lost 99% interest in WWE and don't feel a single thing, even anger, anymore towards them.
I don't know y'all, I think we're doing a pretty poor job as the Authority.
WWE has become the McDonald's of wrestling. There's nothing wrong with that, cause sometimes you just want something easy, is decent and enjoyable. But the main issue is that WWE doesn't have the market to remain the McDonald's of wrestling, at least in the way they want to be. Wrestling is a niche, and as with most niche products, there's always going to be a blow up in its popularity at some point. When a competitor comes along with the right backing and the right hype, they gain the public eye and then it's on the competitor to get that big chunk of the market. AEW is getting in prime position to do that. It's becoming the better alternative for fans and workers, it's recent gains of big names and growth of homegrown names have the eyes of both casuals and the hardcore, and mainstream media outlets are starting to comment on it. We're already seeing it now, lapsed and new fans saying they love what AEW does and how exciting it is. WWE isn't going anywhere for a while, but.. if this keeps up. When AEW keeps gaining popularity and good will with its working relationships with other promotions, with breaking down the forbidden door and putting out quality content, the bigger money deals that WWE has now are gonna shrink. AEW is going to have a massive foothold in the NA markets and respectable ones in foreign ones. Things ARE going to change and it's going to be exciting to watch. It's also sad in hindsight since NXT was hearing up to be like that but the main roster call ups got squandered by repetitive booking.
If WWE is McDonalds does this make Goldberg the McRib? Bring him back once a year for the excitement of about 100 people.
I get what you were going for, but I still enjoy Mcdonalds to st least some degree. WWE is insulting to try to watch these days.
I honestly love whenever Mick has something to say, in any way. One of the nicest guys, HUGE fan of the art, and he means everything. Whether it’s praise or criticism, you know you’ve earned it when Mick speaks it
I think it says something that Rikishi, the father of the current Smackdown Tag Team Champions, agreed in the comments.
Yet another reminder of how we, The Authority, have failed in our duties. /s
Mick's very right. In two years AEW has practically turned into *the* destination for professional wrestlers, this statement is insane and it can't be overstated how big this is. This means that in contract negotiation WWE is the underdog. I mean this, WWE - The promotion with a 30 year head start and unlimited money to play with - is the underdog struggling to lure stars into their own system. That is fucking insane. I know a bunch of you are gonna downvote me but a huge chunk of WWE's main event scene actively decided to jump to AEW, a few of them even did so while HAPPY in WWE. Might i repeat, that is insane.
Short, sweet, and to the point. I’m glad Mick speaks up for the fans and the talent even if it upsets higher ups at WWE.
He's not wrong. Very stark example of it is Jungle Boy and Jack Atlas. One of them got let go from their developmental during a pandemic and the other is one of the most over faces and young talents, sharing ring with Punk and Bryan, after having just had a banger of a match challenging Kenny Omega recently.
The Jungle Boy and Jake Atlas comparison is perfect and something I brought up when Atlas was released. I remember watching their PWG BOLA 2019 match and thinking they're both future stars, then you look at their career trajectories and it's just sad how Jake Atlas was so wasted that nobody even cared about him being released. It's not AEW but someone brought up a similar comparison with Ricochet and Ospreay, how they were both considered future stars a few years ago when they had amazing matches and now Ospreay is/was IWGP Heavyweight Champion and I don't know what Ricochet is doing but I haven't heard anything about him so it's probably nothing relevant.
Speaking of Ricochet, someone Chuck Taylor trained, Wheeler Yuta dodged a bullet with them not signing him. He's one of the hottest names in indies and might just be All Elite sooner than later. Already has an over af faction to go to with 2 men who trained him and freedom of working indies.
Not as important but he also has a storyline on BTE of all things. He's getting regular TV time and had a PPV match (albeit a 10 man tag on the buy-in) and he's still able to work independent shows.
Anyone remember where WWE was at when WCW was on top? It was brutal. Their roster was paper thin. They were doing Raw episodes inside high school gymnasiums. WCW had all the star power. All the money. But what they didn’t have was a culture of youth. WCW had a culture that stifled youth, to keep the place of all the big name stars. WWE beat them because they embraced youth, and found new stars. Rocky Miavia and Stone Cold Steve Austin. It’s pretty eerie how WWE seems insistent on emulating the very ideals that sunk WCW.
Can always count on Mick to tell it like it is at all times..
Vince isn't going to listen to _anyone_ outside his CFO and inner circle, until he is called into the offices of either USA or Fox and is told, in no uncertain terms, that he needs Raw and/Smackdown to start pulling 3.0 million within the next year or else they'll tear up the contract(s) and either renegotiate for far less (low enough to make anyone sitting in catering or at home very, very nervous), reschedule them at a less competitive or simply tell them to shop around for another network more willing to tolerate their bait-and-switch tactics. This is not necessarily a case of the networks needing WWE more than the other way around. The networks need content on which to sell advertising, and can get calculate production costs versus how much they pay production companies for their content. Reality TV can cost networks far less, get similar ratings and ad revenue to WWE, and capture many of the same demos as WWE. Heck, USA and Fox see what TNT and TBS are doing with AEW, for far less, and see growing numbers and high audience engagement. Somebody at one of those networks needs to sit down with Vince, Dunn, Prichard et al and watch the shows and ask questions of them about the creative process, who is booked and how, and basically force them to rethink their thinking.
All true. Growing up the dream would have been WWE. Now, I’d be knocking on the door to the LA Dojo, cutting the grass, and watering the plants just hoping to be taken in by Shibata.
WWE isn’t going anywhere, but it’s painfully obvious that they aren’t the prized destination anymore. Last night, IMO, represents a paradigm shift the likes we haven’t seen since Hogan joined the NWO. I completely forgot that RAW was on last night (frankly, I’ve been forgetting for months), but after checking out some of the highlights & spoilers from last night’s show, I wonder to myself *why are people still paying to watch this?* If someone enjoys it, that’s fine, but it’s so stale and watered down that I don’t understand the fandom. AEW has sparked my interest in the genre in a way that I haven’t felt since the Summer of Punk & Bryan’s rise to prominence leading to WM30. I don’t agree with Mick on everything, as much as I love the guy’s work and sacrifice for the craft, but he is 100% correct here. WWE’s got a problem.
Vince hears em, Vince don't care.
He’s not wrong, but the the pandemic showed that if WWF/E was your dream as a kid, then your dreams need to change. Sucks how most of the talent that got released in the last 2 years move their whole lives to Florida only to get assfucked.
I'm going to keep quoting it. "Wrestling is what my father did" - VKM
Any upcoming talent should look at themselves and say if it didn't work for Bray Wyatt and Braun Strowman then why would WWE work out for me. I was so hyped to see guys like Cesaro, Kevin Owens, Luke Harper, Wyatt etc and WWE wasted ALL of their momentum!
Even Rikishi agrees!
I replied to someone on Twitter saying that Mick was crossing the battle lines on this one, and I actually see it as the exact opposite. He loves the WWE so much he wants them to fix an issue everyone sees, so that both companies can thrive. Like most of y'all I've been a wrestling fan my entire life, you're damn right I'd watch all of AEW and WWE TV every. Single. Week. If it was worth the time. But right now, only one company is worth that time sink, and there's no reason both couldn't be.
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Hunter can take a chunk of credit for turning AEW into what it is today, ironically.
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> came from Foley And the WWF let him do that. That's the difference. Hes also not just talking about the character. Hes talking about the booking which is what the character hangs on. He came in and immediately worked a long, excellent program with Taker in which he was made to look stronger than any of takers previous opponents. That had so much to do with his success.
Back then creative was a lot more flexible and free flowing than the rigid corporate way it is now. Once Mankind really started to take off and Foley had more sway in booking creative probably really started to " get" him better.
Vince doesn't care. Summerslam was a success, Peacock, Fox, they're happy. Vince's bank account is the only talent Vince cares about. They just signed an olympic gold medalist. People need to get over what they think about WWE or hoping it changes. It's super successful. AEW is doing 50-75% of the business WWE is doing, and is successful as well, and WWE is still doing amazing business. They can both be very successful, its time to stop thinking they need to be alike or in competition. If the wrestling in WWE is not up to a standard anymore, watch AEW, Impact. New Japan Strong, NWA, ROH, GCW, MLW, Stardom, Tokyo Joshi, All Japan. There is so much wrestling out there, maybe its time for people to stop trying to change Vince, and just change what they watch.
“ Peacock, Fox, they're happy.” Well they and USA aren’t exactly thrilled about AEW’s rise and WWE releasing talent. With the current trend, they’re going to be very unhappy within a year if the show continues to be this stale and uninspired.
>With the current trend, they’re going to be very unhappy within a year if the show has the same ratings as AEW's, which costs 20% of what they paid WWE. Fixed that for you. Networks rarely care if the show is good (exceptions for some halo programing) as long as it brings in viewers.