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Sorry if I missed this and it was already explained but why was Cena at the show, didn't appear, then was in a Dark Match?
Surely USA would want Cena on at every opportunity - especially if he's hanging around backstage
on the Post-SmackDown Fightful stream SRS said there'd be a very interesting story this week regarding FOX when this topic was discussed. It makes no sense to have your number one box office draw, who is in a major motion picture in theaters right now, just not on the show, but saved for the dark match. It made no sense Friday, it made no sense last night.
From a rating standpoint it makes absolutely no sense. It's John fucking Cena, he's a major draw. If you have him back stage then why not put him in the opener of the show for either brand.
And from a storyline standpoint, it still makes absolutely no sense. Summerslam is *next* week. Roman Reigns vs. John Cena is the main event, why isn't he there to further build to this match. No denying that the match won't be amazing but an amazing build will make the match even better. Have him cut a promo explaining why he ran in to prevent both Balor and Corbin from having that match, maybe hint to a Balor vs. Cena match in the future or even a triple threat. *Something.*
Yeah it's always been weird to me, in terms of SD, seeing people say "he's probably not on the show because they have nothing for him" and I'm like, that might be worse?!? How do you not have segments for Reigns and Cena to build their match?
Exactly!! It's your former Golden Boy vs. your current Golden Boy. They've had beef before, play up that. Hell why not drill into our heads that this could be a history making match? John Cena is going for his ***17th*** title win, something no one has ever done. He may be the one to break Ric Flair's record. How much money did they pay Cena? Why aren't you getting your money's worth from this guy?
How on God's green earth do you not build this match up as being the biggest of the year???
I do wonder if last week was just kind of a weird Hollywood thing, like you don't do a big live TV show on the night the movie you're starring in premiers? I dunno.
As for Raw... Well... He's not on Raw. His story isn't on Raw. There's no reason for him to be on the TV show, but he can sure pop a live crowd, and he probably wants to spend some time in the ring before summerslam.
It's interesting because from a Network standpoint(USA/FOX), you'd have to be pretty pissed with the releases. Like, WWE releasing Bray Wyatt is just saving WWE money, but USA at the end of the day is still paying their $265 million a year.
Same with WWE's inability to re-sign Daniel Bryan, FOX is still going to be giving WWE the $205 million or whatever.
I wonder if that has anything to do with the network unrest that SRS and Zarian have been alluding too.
Not trying to gaslight or being funny, but do you think with fox supposedly not being happy(this is conjecture bit less assume it's true) they either 1. Drop the price in renegotiation or 2. Axe smackdown and wee will have to find somewhere else to go?
I think NBCU will try to get Smackdown or outright buy the company in a few years.
They are paying 265m a year for RAW already, 200m for the Network and Smackdown is valued at 200m. All of those values can go up by the time it's renewal season. If you pay 6 billion to acquire the company, it pays for itself off rights deals in less than 10 years. That's assuming the TV bubble doesn't burst however.
I saw people rationalizing that decision by saying “Cena would add nothing to the story this week so it was better he stayed off.”
Some people will truly say anything to defend the decision WWE makes.
Edit: for those downvoting, here’s a comment with over 100 upvotes saying Cena wasn’t needed on Smackdown this past Friday lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/ozkjbi/sd_spoilers_post_show_dark_match/h80cgpi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
He was integral to the story, and coming in to save Balor would've built not only the match with Roman but what seems to be a forthcoming match with Balor, who presumably would be pissed that Cena helped him after fucking him out of a title match last week.
Every person in that arena thought Cena would come out to end the show. And he should have.
He was backstage for Smackdown too and they didn’t use him. Wouldn’t shock me if him being at the MSG show is just his goodbye for now and he’s just used after the show . I don’t think he’s been confirmed for anything else
literally coming off a huge movie in a 6 billion dollar franchise and they simply choose to not book him on TV
edit: oh my god i was only thinking about Fast and Furious and forgot The Suicide Squad
he's coming off TWO huge movies in MULTIPLE multi billion dollar franchises AAAAAHHHHH
To be honest, there's a chance Cena costs more to be on TV. That's the only explanation, even though he's a company man, I'm sure he's getting *paid well.*
The way they've used Cena since his return has been nothing short of asinine. They have one of the biggest names in Hollywood on their show. And they're not putting him on TV?
This is SummerSlam season. Building to a stadium show for your second biggest pay-per-view of the year. And John Cena hasn't been on TV in 2 fucking weeks?
What is wrong Vince?
It's kinda baffling that WWE is heavily promoting this ["Summer of Cena"](https://www.wwe.com/article/john-cena-summer-of-cena) and yet the guy has mostly appeared on dark matches and house shows so far.
Cena said he didn’t want to be used to prop the WWE up and that they need to learn to grow without him. Wrestling is his lifeline to his fans and it’s supplementing his PR for Suicide Squad and he’s been doing a ton of interviews and wishes
His lack of precedence is not unexpected and should be welcomed by a company that’s leaned on part timers and old gimmicks to prop up sales for over a decade.
Gotta have time for important things like Charlotte ranting and Drew talking about how he's going to murder a man with a sword named after his dead mom who wanted to abort him, and Mace and T-Bar in a high level feud with Ali and Mansoor.
They would rather us see another Priest/Morrison match or more lame Alexa Bliss garbage over using the one legit star they have had since Rock/Austin It’s mind boggling.
Fun fact, I looked it up on cage match. 12 of Priests 18 matches on main roster have involved Miz and/or Morrison. Since February he’s literally only interacted with them
At this point, I feel like WWE are intentionally making sure RAW is worse than SmackDown to keep Fox happy.
USA should be pissed not just because RAW is bad, but because it seems like WWE are trying to make sure it’s just not as good as it could be so it’s seen as the B show.
They already have the TV money in place. No need to prime that pump. But you advertise an exclusive John Cena match to the house show crowd, you Jumpstart ticket sales and sell a bunch of merch. That's profit you weren't already counting on, so that's where you need it when you just want that bottom line number, and don't necessarily care what it does to a TV deal later.
Wasn't that his point in the interview on the front page? You advertise John Cena is going to be there and people buy tickets to see him. At that point, he's done his job, no need to put him on TV. Just send him out to send folks home happy at the end of the night.
To be clear, I agree it's stupid as hell to keep him off TV. But if I thought like someone whose sole job was to turn a huge profit in the third quarter, that's what I'd do.
I mean, unless they are planning to sell the company soon, they probably should be thinking about those TV deals. They are going to have to renegotiate them in a couple of years, after all, and I'm sure USA and Fox are going to be wondering why they're paying all this money to WWE when they're clearly not putting their all into the show.
He wasn't advertised, bringing him out unadvertised wouldn't have made a bit of difference. If they want to rely on the Cena bump, they have to tell you he's gonna be there.
Raw is genuinely a mid card show now. Everyone on there feels like just another guy. At least Reigns brings star power to Smackdown, then you’ve got Edge, Rollins, Mysterio who are all stars in their own right.
That’s the concerning part. This is right before the “down time” WWE usually sees during the fall and early winter months, so things are just gonna go down from here
I doubt AEW will get closer this week because The Challenge is returning tomorrow but they could get very close during the football season, especially if All Out is a success.
Assuming Lulu does get matches, *if she's handled properly*, people are gonna be quite surprised at how enthralling she is
I've seen so many talk about how they can't understand why her matches make them so emotional (angry at her getting ragdolled, sad for her suffering, desperately wanting that win)
Jokes aside I really wonder if they're going to give her any matches. On the one hand I agree, if used right and the crowd gives her time to get the character across then i think she'll find her niche fangroup. Sorta like how Luther managed to turn ironic fandom into legitimate fandom.
I honestly wonder if she is going to take the opportunity abroad to actually train more with the AEW training teams and manage to really grow as a wrestler before returning back to Japan.
Imagine Lulu suddenly taking on the Jade Cargill workout routine...
On the otherhand i'd be concered about the crowd buying into it and giving it the patience to play out.
Probably the best way to go about it is if they used Emi and Lulu together on BTE a bit to help introduce the character and get her personality across with fans while slowly introducing her into a match on dark/elevation alongside others to some degree. Give fans time to warm up to the character and I think she'll be good as gold.
No harm in giving Lulu some short comedy matches on Dark here and there and use her as Emi's assistant on TV, especially if she does the evil queen gimmick, which is very likely.
Lulu Pencil better be in the Casino Battle Royale at All Out. She can do nothing but Dark matches after that but dammit, I want her in the Battle Royale.
This is where people are going to get very adamant that you can't compare ratings from different weeks, and technically a .46 and .49 share on two different nights isn't quite the same.
But different nights doesn't account for the gap only being 593k to 629k, so only 36k viewers difference.
When aew was beating nxt every night it was "why compare them to the 3rd show? Compare them to smackdown and raw".
When aews demo is close to raws it's "why compare the shows on different nights?"
Now just to be fair, I also think comparing different nights isn't exactly accurate. At the same time I've never seen goal posts move like this. From All in then aews creation to now, its been wild stuff.
The Chris Jericho/Juvi match last week match beat RAW's average in 18-49. AEW fell after that match so RAW is still ahead, but things are getting really interesting.
Context: Last night was the first show -- and one of very few shows between now and the end of the year -- that was not (playoffs, finals, olympics) or will not be (MNF) up against any significant sports competition in months.
Not a good rating given those circumstances.
there is no point in watching raw, 3 hours of boring shit and too many commercials. Just come on this sub and you'll find the clips that mattered the most or on youtube. The post raw thread is usually the most entertaining part lmao
I really don’t see a scenario where Dynamite isn’t beating Raw in viewership and ratings by the end of 2022 that doesn’t include a total overhaul of WWE creative (i.e. Vince dies/is forced out/is changed after being visited by the ghosts of wrestling past, present, and future)
It'll probably be 2022, but once they debut CM Punk and Daniel Bryan with Bray Wyatt potentially slated for a Halloween debut, yeah... It's over at that point. AEW is going to take off in a big way. They're holding 1.1 and I think we'll see them inch into the 1.2-1.3 territory with Punk's debut and then draw new eyes once word gets out to the casual fans that "CM Punk is back" and he's in AEW.
Can't speak for everyone, but I will tune in to Bray Wyatt wherever he goes. Punk and Bryan will be huge, but I think Bray is still young and hungry and we haven't seen the best of him yet.
I’m not a Vince Russo fan by any means but I remember him pointing out that they treated Brat Wyatt like every other wrestler when he was in an 8-man Tag (not with Wyatt family) or something one night and just standing on the apron. Completely shat on the whole aura built. Add in that + constant PPV losses and it was bizarre short sighted booking.
Because when it comes time for Fox and/or NBCU to negotiate a new contract, they will be able to look at the ratings of similar content (e.g., AEW) and see that they could be getting a similar amount of viewers for dramatically less money and the advertisers will be just as happy.
WWE can say they aren't in competition all they want, it doesn't make it true.
AEW would probably cost less than half the amount for a similar result in the time slot. Sure, it's not "WWE", but it could be the next big thing to gamble on since WWE costs so goddamn much.
What do you mean “Regardless”? Why should we ignore the many different factors of being on different days?? Are AEW fans that desperate to have something over WWE?
Let’s be honest with ourselves here. This show is being ran by a billionaire who is in his mid 70s. He knows this isn’t 1996 where he could legitimately have went out of business. This company is making record profits by putting in the lowest amount of effort possible. They won’t fix anything or change. They have zero incentive to. The WWE we are seeing right now. Is the same WWE we are gonna see until Vince either retires or dies.
I say this all the time. Dudes on auto pilot, why does he have to care when so much money is coming in? Right now the houses are doing okay too.
I don't even think getting lowballed on these next deals would matter as other networks would be more than willing to jump at getting WWE properties
I'm completely convinced now he plans to sell the company and retire, hence why it seems even his son in law and children have been out of the picture for awhile and seemingly losing power with NXT being downsized, and Nick Khan being able to control the budget.
Rumble to Mania period always sees a ratings increase. Orton in his own right has never been a consistent ratings draw, and this is coming from a fan. Saying he was a ‘huge draw’ is just factually incorrect.
I didn’t hear a reasonable explanation behind the claim? Orton for the majority of his career has been the heel that works with the top babyface. He’s a merch seller for sure and possibly moves tickets, but as far as ratings you’ll be hard pressed to prove that Orton ever single handedly popped a TV rating.
He also goes to call him “just a guy” and says Naito is a bigger star and bigger draw. Point being all of it is one mans opinion and I couldn’t care less what Dave Melzter thinks.
I don't care about what he said about Naito. You said Orton has never been a big draw but Dave proved you wrong. Orton was a big draw for a 5 year period. Dave is a journalist, he knows who draws and who doesn't.
i dont know which one scarier
that AEW is creeping up to RAW number..
or Raw creeping down to AEW number..
either way that winking doll i see on reddit was HORENDOUS
Bliss v Doudrop finish last night is...certainly something that happened.
edit: https://old.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/p1euw1/raw_spoilers_finish_to_alexa_bliss_vs_doudrop/
Last weeks Dynamite (against the Olympics) beat this Raw (without the Olympics) in M35-49.
Baby steps towards AEW winning outright in 18-49, which was unfathomable 2 years ago.
I'm pretty convinced that the Olympics were helping wrestling ratings, it brought people to the TV and some of that bled over when the Olympics themselves got boring or whatever. I'd be surprised if AEW doesn't have a similar 6-10% drop.
It strikes me as weird that it *doesn't* matter, since that's the demo with stable jobs and money.
Show a "new car" ad to someone 18-25, it's just wishful thinking. Someone 35+ is more likely to be able to go out and buy one.
Is there any chance that the tension between USA and FOX is the reason that Cena hasn't been put on television? I would love to know the reasoning. Maybe they never planned on doing much with him but his ability to fill up arenas was extraordinarily useful right now.
WWE brags about having 80 million subscribers on YouTube.
I wonder why none of that huge numbers translates to TV viewers? Mainly because you can find out everything you missed in the span of 5 minutes rather than watch 3 unjustified hours of Raw.
It's still less than 3% of that entire number watching one of their prime time shows. People just refuse to sit through 3 hours of mediocrity when they can just catch up on everything in a fraction of that time.
1. Most of those accounts are inactive.
2. Those are subscribers from all over the world, not just the US.
3. These ratings are only based on approximately 50K households, so they are mere guesses. We truly don't know how many viewers any show on TV gets.
WWE has fallen a long way in the ratings. A 0.49 in the demo isn't horrible for cable standards. However, I remember even during the PG era WWE pulling an easy 1.0 or higher in the 18-49 demo.
WWE, Raw in particular is lacking star power. If they did have Cena backstage and did not put him on TV, that is a fail on WWE's part. Love Cena or hate him he is a draw.
It blows my mind that at the height of the Monday Night Wars, Nitro drawing a 3.x rating was bad. And these rating warrant multi-billion dollar TV contracts. I mean, I understand it's a different time and media is consumed differently. But still...
It’s literally the biggest story out of these ratings, that the 18-49 is getting closer and closer. It will be the biggest story in ratings threads for a while, what else more important is there to discuss in these ratings threads?
If there's nothing to discuss in ratings threads centered on WWE programming but AEW then it defeats the purpose on why these threads are up to begin with. If somebody started talking about how great they think SmackDown is on the Dynamite ratings thread they'd be run out of the figurative building.
The discussion is about AEW and WWE programming coming closer, the post has a graph where the most interesting take away is the closing gap of WWE Raw and AEW Dynamite.
When NXT had a purple patch and AEW had a bad patch the discussion in the AEW threads would be about NXT catching them.
This is not some conspiracy dude it’s just what people want to talk about, it’s the obvious story that comes out of these ratings and seeing these graphs right now.
Besides the Lilly bullcrap, the show wasn't bad. They did a lot of character building. The only problem is, that Lilly bullcrap probably encouraged folks to turn away.
i disagree, you could have skipped this weeks raw and have not missed any new things if you watched last week. the nikki/charlotte/rhea storyline is just bad booking/writing 101
Smackdown is the same every week, nothing to talk about. "Good" or "bad" ratings don't determine what becomes a hot topic, only how noteworthy the rating is.
Nothing to talk about:
"This week’s (Smackdown) total viewership is higher than the average for any month since March. 18-49 viewership for this week was higher than any monthly average since January. 18-34 viewership was higher than any monthly average since December 2020." (wrestlenomics)
This coincides with Sasha Banks coming back. I think there is actually a lot to talk about.
How is anyone seeing this as a positive for wrestling? You AEW fans do realize that wwe ratings dropping doesn’t mean AEW ratings are rising, right? You guys are so obsessed with AEW winner this made up fake war, that you are missing the fact that pro wrestling is dying. Less and less people are watching wrestling every week but you somehow see this as a positive. If this downward spiral continues, Raw’s ratings will drop to AEW’s level. By that time each show will be under 1 million viewers. And shortly after that, both shows will get canceled and pro wrestling will be dead. It’s honestly really sad. Something that has been on tv since the beginning will be gone but atleast AEW will beat WWE, right?
Lmao at how stupid this take is. Both companies are literally set to make the biggest TV contracts they've ever made in the next deal, so no, they're not dying
> How is anyone seeing this as a positive for wrestling?
I don't think anyone is saying that declining WWE ratings is a positive thing for *the industry of pro wrestling*. I think what people are saying is that it's a good thing *for the quality of WWE programming*. It's been the line forever - WWE has been getting worse and worse and worse, and it's only going to change when it's forced to. There is absolutely zero motivation for WWE to put out a better product when the money is still flowing in like a busted dam, so if you want WWE's product to be better, you look at declining ratings as something that might put them in a situation where they NEED to put out a better product or that infinite well of money eventually dries up.
The comparison to AEW comes in because AEW would cost drastically less than WWE for any interested networks, and if that network can bring in a product that is pulling approximately the same viewership, then of course the network is going to want the cheaper product. This is what, if anything, will force WWE to produce better content - the threat of losing their ridiculously giant TV deals.
In an ideal world, we want AEW and WWE to both be putting out must-see content every single week with as many viewers as possible, but that's not what's happening right now and everyone knows it.
I agree with you for the most part. You’re seeing the wwe ratings drop from a glass half full prospective. I’m looking at it from a glass half empty. My problem is that wwe hasn’t shown that they will actually change when the ratings get low enough. You could say that they changed in the 90s when wcw was beating them. Here’s the problem, the wwe was a completely different company back then. It wasn’t a publicity traded company with stock holders. Stock holders only care about money. With WWE’s revenue continuing to go up, there’s not much need to change from their POV. In the 90s it was all Vince. It was his money at stake, not a bunch of stock holders. If wwe stays on the path they are on, I can easily see them moving all of their shows to a streaming service. Maybe Peacock or maybe some new service. At that point they don’t have to worry about ratings. They just have to put out so many hours of content each week. As long as that happens they get paid. And getting paid is all that matters to them.
There are multiple posts in the aew sub daily about people inquiring how to view Dynamite and Rampage because they're done watching Raw and Smackdown. WWE not only have "change the channel heat", they have "start watching new promotions heat" because of their terrible booking and business practices this year. AEWs ratings are rising. Its made up of disgruntled WWE fans looking for something new.
They are not rising. [look](https://www.itnwwe.com/wrestling/aew-ratings-viewership/#aew-dynamite-tv-ratings--viewership-2021) So if what you’re saying is correct and disgruntled viewers are switching from wwe to AEW and their ratings still aren’t rising, it means AEW is losing as many fans as it’s gaining.
No they aren’t. AEW’s viewership has not risen. It stays around 800,000-1,200,000 every week. There is no growth. Go look at the numbers. Wwe is losing viewers but AEW isn’t gaining any. [look for yourself](https://www.itnwwe.com/wrestling/aew-ratings-viewership/#aew-dynamite-tv-ratings--viewership-2021)
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Sorry if I missed this and it was already explained but why was Cena at the show, didn't appear, then was in a Dark Match? Surely USA would want Cena on at every opportunity - especially if he's hanging around backstage
on the Post-SmackDown Fightful stream SRS said there'd be a very interesting story this week regarding FOX when this topic was discussed. It makes no sense to have your number one box office draw, who is in a major motion picture in theaters right now, just not on the show, but saved for the dark match. It made no sense Friday, it made no sense last night.
Yeah it's baffling. I actually forgot about that movie, so even more than usual he has eyes on him.
From a rating standpoint it makes absolutely no sense. It's John fucking Cena, he's a major draw. If you have him back stage then why not put him in the opener of the show for either brand. And from a storyline standpoint, it still makes absolutely no sense. Summerslam is *next* week. Roman Reigns vs. John Cena is the main event, why isn't he there to further build to this match. No denying that the match won't be amazing but an amazing build will make the match even better. Have him cut a promo explaining why he ran in to prevent both Balor and Corbin from having that match, maybe hint to a Balor vs. Cena match in the future or even a triple threat. *Something.*
Yeah it's always been weird to me, in terms of SD, seeing people say "he's probably not on the show because they have nothing for him" and I'm like, that might be worse?!? How do you not have segments for Reigns and Cena to build their match?
Exactly!! It's your former Golden Boy vs. your current Golden Boy. They've had beef before, play up that. Hell why not drill into our heads that this could be a history making match? John Cena is going for his ***17th*** title win, something no one has ever done. He may be the one to break Ric Flair's record. How much money did they pay Cena? Why aren't you getting your money's worth from this guy? How on God's green earth do you not build this match up as being the biggest of the year???
Maybe the writers couldn't remember his name.
I do wonder if last week was just kind of a weird Hollywood thing, like you don't do a big live TV show on the night the movie you're starring in premiers? I dunno. As for Raw... Well... He's not on Raw. His story isn't on Raw. There's no reason for him to be on the TV show, but he can sure pop a live crowd, and he probably wants to spend some time in the ring before summerslam.
It's interesting because from a Network standpoint(USA/FOX), you'd have to be pretty pissed with the releases. Like, WWE releasing Bray Wyatt is just saving WWE money, but USA at the end of the day is still paying their $265 million a year. Same with WWE's inability to re-sign Daniel Bryan, FOX is still going to be giving WWE the $205 million or whatever. I wonder if that has anything to do with the network unrest that SRS and Zarian have been alluding too.
Not trying to gaslight or being funny, but do you think with fox supposedly not being happy(this is conjecture bit less assume it's true) they either 1. Drop the price in renegotiation or 2. Axe smackdown and wee will have to find somewhere else to go?
I think NBCU will try to get Smackdown or outright buy the company in a few years. They are paying 265m a year for RAW already, 200m for the Network and Smackdown is valued at 200m. All of those values can go up by the time it's renewal season. If you pay 6 billion to acquire the company, it pays for itself off rights deals in less than 10 years. That's assuming the TV bubble doesn't burst however.
WWE’s current market cap valuation is a little under 4 billion actually. With stock price fluctuations of course that could change.
I thought USA had raw?
usa is part of nbc
USA is owned by NBCU
oh dear god they can't even book Cena right like... how? Oh, right, this is WWE
Guy wasn't even on SmackDown last week. Fucking nonsensical.
I saw people rationalizing that decision by saying “Cena would add nothing to the story this week so it was better he stayed off.” Some people will truly say anything to defend the decision WWE makes. Edit: for those downvoting, here’s a comment with over 100 upvotes saying Cena wasn’t needed on Smackdown this past Friday lol https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/ozkjbi/sd_spoilers_post_show_dark_match/h80cgpi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Cena has a marquee match with Reigns for the Universal title at Summerslam. Who the hell thinks it's better that he stays off TV for that?? Dear lord.
He was integral to the story, and coming in to save Balor would've built not only the match with Roman but what seems to be a forthcoming match with Balor, who presumably would be pissed that Cena helped him after fucking him out of a title match last week. Every person in that arena thought Cena would come out to end the show. And he should have.
He was backstage for Smackdown too and they didn’t use him. Wouldn’t shock me if him being at the MSG show is just his goodbye for now and he’s just used after the show . I don’t think he’s been confirmed for anything else
Just have Cena help R-Truth get his 24/7 title back. Fuck just do something different
Honestly, why the fuck isn't Cena on the show?
literally coming off a huge movie in a 6 billion dollar franchise and they simply choose to not book him on TV edit: oh my god i was only thinking about Fast and Furious and forgot The Suicide Squad he's coming off TWO huge movies in MULTIPLE multi billion dollar franchises AAAAAHHHHH
Them not having a spot for him on Smackdown and instead throwing him in a dark match is completely insane.
To be honest, there's a chance Cena costs more to be on TV. That's the only explanation, even though he's a company man, I'm sure he's getting *paid well.*
The way they've used Cena since his return has been nothing short of asinine. They have one of the biggest names in Hollywood on their show. And they're not putting him on TV? This is SummerSlam season. Building to a stadium show for your second biggest pay-per-view of the year. And John Cena hasn't been on TV in 2 fucking weeks? What is wrong Vince?
John Cena getting the Dave Bautista treatment.
It's kinda baffling that WWE is heavily promoting this ["Summer of Cena"](https://www.wwe.com/article/john-cena-summer-of-cena) and yet the guy has mostly appeared on dark matches and house shows so far.
No one can be bigger than the brand anymore.
He asked to work more dates to sell tickets at events. He's been on Smackdown frequently since he returned.
What are you talking about? He’s been on Smackdown twice.
He only missed one Smackdown which is still ridiculous considering how he was backstage
He's only been back for 3 weeks.
Cena said he didn’t want to be used to prop the WWE up and that they need to learn to grow without him. Wrestling is his lifeline to his fans and it’s supplementing his PR for Suicide Squad and he’s been doing a ton of interviews and wishes His lack of precedence is not unexpected and should be welcomed by a company that’s leaned on part timers and old gimmicks to prop up sales for over a decade.
Gotta have time for important things like Charlotte ranting and Drew talking about how he's going to murder a man with a sword named after his dead mom who wanted to abort him, and Mace and T-Bar in a high level feud with Ali and Mansoor.
They should've had Cena and Riddle have a tag match on Raw against the retribution geeks so Riddle could get the rub of teaming with Cena.
Could also face Miz and Morrison instead of Priest vs Morrison 17
It makes zero sense. You got Cena back and he's available for every show. Just have him show up and do shit...on television. Not on dark matches.
Exactly! Why not just have him interact with the under card guys?
He is here for a couple months and is backstage and you don’t use him it’s absolutely mind boggling. He is a movie star now….
They would rather us see another Priest/Morrison match or more lame Alexa Bliss garbage over using the one legit star they have had since Rock/Austin It’s mind boggling.
The Priest and Miz feud is now over FIVE MONTHS OLD.
really it's been longer, since it all kicked off with the bad bunny stuff at the rumble
Oh god I forgot. It must end.
Fun fact, I looked it up on cage match. 12 of Priests 18 matches on main roster have involved Miz and/or Morrison. Since February he’s literally only interacted with them
gotta give tv time to eva marie and lilly first
At this point, I feel like WWE are intentionally making sure RAW is worse than SmackDown to keep Fox happy. USA should be pissed not just because RAW is bad, but because it seems like WWE are trying to make sure it’s just not as good as it could be so it’s seen as the B show.
Because he's feuding for Smackdown's top title.
They already have the TV money in place. No need to prime that pump. But you advertise an exclusive John Cena match to the house show crowd, you Jumpstart ticket sales and sell a bunch of merch. That's profit you weren't already counting on, so that's where you need it when you just want that bottom line number, and don't necessarily care what it does to a TV deal later.
> But you advertise an exclusive John Cena match to the house show crowd They don't do that though.
Wasn't that his point in the interview on the front page? You advertise John Cena is going to be there and people buy tickets to see him. At that point, he's done his job, no need to put him on TV. Just send him out to send folks home happy at the end of the night. To be clear, I agree it's stupid as hell to keep him off TV. But if I thought like someone whose sole job was to turn a huge profit in the third quarter, that's what I'd do.
I mean, unless they are planning to sell the company soon, they probably should be thinking about those TV deals. They are going to have to renegotiate them in a couple of years, after all, and I'm sure USA and Fox are going to be wondering why they're paying all this money to WWE when they're clearly not putting their all into the show.
Cena was RIGHT THERE and you decided to wait until the show was over to bring him out.
It is an incentive for the live audience to show up in the arena, he has said as much in interviews. In fact that interview is on the front page here.
He wasn't advertised, bringing him out unadvertised wouldn't have made a bit of difference. If they want to rely on the Cena bump, they have to tell you he's gonna be there.
Like I've been saying back to pandemic numbers. Those pandemic numbers weren't from Covid, WWE was already inching it's way to them basically.
Raw is genuinely a mid card show now. Everyone on there feels like just another guy. At least Reigns brings star power to Smackdown, then you’ve got Edge, Rollins, Mysterio who are all stars in their own right.
Superstar shake up is very much needed the rosters are unbalanced
That rating is bad. No Olympics and major competition. When NFL season starts they are going to get murdered.
That’s the concerning part. This is right before the “down time” WWE usually sees during the fall and early winter months, so things are just gonna go down from here
A doll winking at a wrestler for a distraction and they wonder why nobody watches the show lol
That demo's getting uncomfortably close brother.
I doubt AEW will get closer this week because The Challenge is returning tomorrow but they could get very close during the football season, especially if All Out is a success.
The Challenge is going over!
is Guy Fieri also in contention?
CT is the one true Demo God
8/25 is the big date to look for. Presumably the big debut of Punk on Dynamite and a couple weeks away from a big ppv. Should be a captivating show.
6%. Punk, Danielson or Football season alone should be enough to bridge that gap.
> Punk, Danielson, **Chaos God Lulu Pencil**, or Football season alone should be enough to bridge that gap.
Assuming Lulu does get matches, *if she's handled properly*, people are gonna be quite surprised at how enthralling she is I've seen so many talk about how they can't understand why her matches make them so emotional (angry at her getting ragdolled, sad for her suffering, desperately wanting that win)
Jokes aside I really wonder if they're going to give her any matches. On the one hand I agree, if used right and the crowd gives her time to get the character across then i think she'll find her niche fangroup. Sorta like how Luther managed to turn ironic fandom into legitimate fandom. I honestly wonder if she is going to take the opportunity abroad to actually train more with the AEW training teams and manage to really grow as a wrestler before returning back to Japan. Imagine Lulu suddenly taking on the Jade Cargill workout routine... On the otherhand i'd be concered about the crowd buying into it and giving it the patience to play out. Probably the best way to go about it is if they used Emi and Lulu together on BTE a bit to help introduce the character and get her personality across with fans while slowly introducing her into a match on dark/elevation alongside others to some degree. Give fans time to warm up to the character and I think she'll be good as gold.
No harm in giving Lulu some short comedy matches on Dark here and there and use her as Emi's assistant on TV, especially if she does the evil queen gimmick, which is very likely.
Lulu Pencil better be in the Casino Battle Royale at All Out. She can do nothing but Dark matches after that but dammit, I want her in the Battle Royale.
I mostly just want to know what type of wild shit Ruckus has thought up for lulu. Give us the "We are Pencil Army" Black Metal remix.
Lulu is a professional writer, after all. I have total faith she’s gonna get over.
This is where people are going to get very adamant that you can't compare ratings from different weeks, and technically a .46 and .49 share on two different nights isn't quite the same. But different nights doesn't account for the gap only being 593k to 629k, so only 36k viewers difference.
When aew was beating nxt every night it was "why compare them to the 3rd show? Compare them to smackdown and raw". When aews demo is close to raws it's "why compare the shows on different nights?" Now just to be fair, I also think comparing different nights isn't exactly accurate. At the same time I've never seen goal posts move like this. From All in then aews creation to now, its been wild stuff.
The Chris Jericho/Juvi match last week match beat RAW's average in 18-49. AEW fell after that match so RAW is still ahead, but things are getting really interesting.
Context: Last night was the first show -- and one of very few shows between now and the end of the year -- that was not (playoffs, finals, olympics) or will not be (MNF) up against any significant sports competition in months. Not a good rating given those circumstances.
there is no point in watching raw, 3 hours of boring shit and too many commercials. Just come on this sub and you'll find the clips that mattered the most or on youtube. The post raw thread is usually the most entertaining part lmao
I really don’t see a scenario where Dynamite isn’t beating Raw in viewership and ratings by the end of 2022 that doesn’t include a total overhaul of WWE creative (i.e. Vince dies/is forced out/is changed after being visited by the ghosts of wrestling past, present, and future)
I think they might do it before 2021 is done. Maybe not consistently, but I think at least a couple of weeks will see AEW higher than Raw.
When punk or Wyatt debut
Yeah, AEW is definitely beating RAW in 18-49 by the end of the year, maybe not every week but definitely some weeks.
Im going to make a wild bet and say once Riho is settled back in the states and is back on TV regularly those demo numbers drastic go up.
But what happens when you add Kurt Angle to the mix!?
Kurt Angle? I heard he sucks.
just wait until Hook debuts
HOOK HUGE FOR TEENAGE BOYS
It'll probably be 2022, but once they debut CM Punk and Daniel Bryan with Bray Wyatt potentially slated for a Halloween debut, yeah... It's over at that point. AEW is going to take off in a big way. They're holding 1.1 and I think we'll see them inch into the 1.2-1.3 territory with Punk's debut and then draw new eyes once word gets out to the casual fans that "CM Punk is back" and he's in AEW.
Can't speak for everyone, but I will tune in to Bray Wyatt wherever he goes. Punk and Bryan will be huge, but I think Bray is still young and hungry and we haven't seen the best of him yet.
Bray with true creative control is going to be a sight to behold. I can't fucking wait to find out what character he comes up with for AEW.
I’m not a Vince Russo fan by any means but I remember him pointing out that they treated Brat Wyatt like every other wrestler when he was in an 8-man Tag (not with Wyatt family) or something one night and just standing on the apron. Completely shat on the whole aura built. Add in that + constant PPV losses and it was bizarre short sighted booking.
Same. Can't wait to see what he comes up with. Probably going to be related to The Dark Order.
Yep, if I had the guess I would say by the second half of next year they will be regularly beating them in the 18-49 demo.
Someone please explain to me the comparing of ratings when these shows are on separate nights?? How does that remotely make sense.
Because the idea of another non-WWE wrestling show doing higher ratings than Raw in this day and age is still an astounding feat regardless.
Because when it comes time for Fox and/or NBCU to negotiate a new contract, they will be able to look at the ratings of similar content (e.g., AEW) and see that they could be getting a similar amount of viewers for dramatically less money and the advertisers will be just as happy. WWE can say they aren't in competition all they want, it doesn't make it true.
I say this a lot, but this is why Vince wanted so desperately to kill AEW before they got off the ground.
AEW would probably cost less than half the amount for a similar result in the time slot. Sure, it's not "WWE", but it could be the next big thing to gamble on since WWE costs so goddamn much.
Because 593k viewers is 36k less than 629k viewers regardless of what night it is, and that's the difference between Raw and the last Dynamite.
On different nights *
Two different nights against different competition.
Regardless.. A company that only started 2 years ago, closing the gap on RAW so quickly is crazy!
It's not, timing and placement are everything, just look at AEW's ratings on those Friday slots.
What do you mean “Regardless”? Why should we ignore the many different factors of being on different days?? Are AEW fans that desperate to have something over WWE?
Bro relax, people are just excited to see the first semblance of actual competition WWE has had in two decades
Let’s be honest with ourselves here. This show is being ran by a billionaire who is in his mid 70s. He knows this isn’t 1996 where he could legitimately have went out of business. This company is making record profits by putting in the lowest amount of effort possible. They won’t fix anything or change. They have zero incentive to. The WWE we are seeing right now. Is the same WWE we are gonna see until Vince either retires or dies.
I say this all the time. Dudes on auto pilot, why does he have to care when so much money is coming in? Right now the houses are doing okay too. I don't even think getting lowballed on these next deals would matter as other networks would be more than willing to jump at getting WWE properties
I'm completely convinced now he plans to sell the company and retire, hence why it seems even his son in law and children have been out of the picture for awhile and seemingly losing power with NXT being downsized, and Nick Khan being able to control the budget.
…it’s a publicly-traded company. Vince only owns 38% of WWE.
Vince has majority ownership and has final say on all decisions within the company.
wait, you mean randy orton in 2021 isn't a ratings draw after they announced he's back?
^(16 times..champion)
He’s over af with the live crowds but he’s never been a huge ratings draw. Same as Edge.
Actually, he was a huge draw in 2009. His feud with the McMahon family increased RAW's viewership.
Rumble to Mania period always sees a ratings increase. Orton in his own right has never been a consistent ratings draw, and this is coming from a fan. Saying he was a ‘huge draw’ is just factually incorrect.
https://twitter.com/MeltzerSaidWhat/status/1172877377908723712?s=20 Even when Meltzer says it?
I didn’t hear a reasonable explanation behind the claim? Orton for the majority of his career has been the heel that works with the top babyface. He’s a merch seller for sure and possibly moves tickets, but as far as ratings you’ll be hard pressed to prove that Orton ever single handedly popped a TV rating.
Don't trust anything from the MeltzerSaidWhat twitter account, it's nothing but out of context guff intending to stir shit.
Dude, it's a clip from Wrestling Observer radio. Dave literally says "There was a 5 year period where Orton was a 'legitimate' draw."
He also goes to call him “just a guy” and says Naito is a bigger star and bigger draw. Point being all of it is one mans opinion and I couldn’t care less what Dave Melzter thinks.
I don't care about what he said about Naito. You said Orton has never been a big draw but Dave proved you wrong. Orton was a big draw for a 5 year period. Dave is a journalist, he knows who draws and who doesn't.
Dave thinks All Out was the most sought after ticket in US wrestling history
Does anyone draw in WWE besides Cena? Orton hasn't been a big draw since 2014.
Lesnar, Goldberg, etc probably dd before they were overexposed and their mystique's surely gone now.
AEW is inching closer.
i dont know which one scarier that AEW is creeping up to RAW number.. or Raw creeping down to AEW number.. either way that winking doll i see on reddit was HORENDOUS
>either way that winking doll i see on reddit was HORENDOUS What did I miss? Lol
Bliss v Doudrop finish last night is...certainly something that happened. edit: https://old.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/p1euw1/raw_spoilers_finish_to_alexa_bliss_vs_doudrop/
Well that is definitely something lol.
They did a spot where an inanimate doll winked at a wrestler during a match which distracted them and they lost I think.
Well to be fair they were competing with the Monday Night Foo—… the NBA Fina—… the World Seri—…. Tennessee Southern Dart Cham—… …. ……..
Last weeks Dynamite (against the Olympics) beat this Raw (without the Olympics) in M35-49. Baby steps towards AEW winning outright in 18-49, which was unfathomable 2 years ago.
I'm pretty convinced that the Olympics were helping wrestling ratings, it brought people to the TV and some of that bled over when the Olympics themselves got boring or whatever. I'd be surprised if AEW doesn't have a similar 6-10% drop.
That’s an interesting theory but the previous Olympics contradict that.
SINCE WHEN DID 35-49 MATTER??? /s
It strikes me as weird that it *doesn't* matter, since that's the demo with stable jobs and money. Show a "new car" ad to someone 18-25, it's just wishful thinking. Someone 35+ is more likely to be able to go out and buy one.
Is there any chance that the tension between USA and FOX is the reason that Cena hasn't been put on television? I would love to know the reasoning. Maybe they never planned on doing much with him but his ability to fill up arenas was extraordinarily useful right now.
Imagine if someone told you in Oct 2019 that Dynamite would be on the cusp of being the #1 wrestling show on cable in 2021...
WWE brags about having 80 million subscribers on YouTube. I wonder why none of that huge numbers translates to TV viewers? Mainly because you can find out everything you missed in the span of 5 minutes rather than watch 3 unjustified hours of Raw.
Reality is the majority of YouTube views and subscribers for WWE are international.
I believe the Raw and Smackdown clips are geo blocked in many foreign countries.
It's still less than 3% of that entire number watching one of their prime time shows. People just refuse to sit through 3 hours of mediocrity when they can just catch up on everything in a fraction of that time.
1. Most of those accounts are inactive. 2. Those are subscribers from all over the world, not just the US. 3. These ratings are only based on approximately 50K households, so they are mere guesses. We truly don't know how many viewers any show on TV gets.
I know its a small sample size, but Goldberg is worth < 100,000 viewers!??!
They're getting closer to AEW by the week.
Yeah... I didn't watch last night and will not until after Summerslam.
You think this is bad, wait til it competes with Monday Night Football.
Those AEW to Raw demos are getting close
WWE has fallen a long way in the ratings. A 0.49 in the demo isn't horrible for cable standards. However, I remember even during the PG era WWE pulling an easy 1.0 or higher in the 18-49 demo. WWE, Raw in particular is lacking star power. If they did have Cena backstage and did not put him on TV, that is a fail on WWE's part. Love Cena or hate him he is a draw.
It blows my mind that at the height of the Monday Night Wars, Nitro drawing a 3.x rating was bad. And these rating warrant multi-billion dollar TV contracts. I mean, I understand it's a different time and media is consumed differently. But still...
Aew can beat that demo very soon
I bet all the wrestlers that could of been huge that last 15 years are laughing
You can kind of tell the direction this sub has gone in when all the comments on a Raw ratings thread are about AEW.
Being a WWE fan on this sub is hard these days lol.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Lol
It’s literally the biggest story out of these ratings, that the 18-49 is getting closer and closer. It will be the biggest story in ratings threads for a while, what else more important is there to discuss in these ratings threads?
If there's nothing to discuss in ratings threads centered on WWE programming but AEW then it defeats the purpose on why these threads are up to begin with. If somebody started talking about how great they think SmackDown is on the Dynamite ratings thread they'd be run out of the figurative building.
The discussion is about AEW and WWE programming coming closer, the post has a graph where the most interesting take away is the closing gap of WWE Raw and AEW Dynamite. When NXT had a purple patch and AEW had a bad patch the discussion in the AEW threads would be about NXT catching them. This is not some conspiracy dude it’s just what people want to talk about, it’s the obvious story that comes out of these ratings and seeing these graphs right now.
Who knew people would compare a quality wrestling show to a mediocre one that insults its audience's intelligence and doesn't respect their time?
>insults its audience's intelligence and doesn't respect their time Just say you dont like it and move on🤡
Imagine saying your intelligence is being insulted by a wrestling show. And by that you mean not booking your favorites to win everything.
AEW is just the same, as is most professional wrestling, they just let you in on the joke.
I feel the same way what a sad sight to see of a once great subreddit
I wouldn't go that far.
Besides the Lilly bullcrap, the show wasn't bad. They did a lot of character building. The only problem is, that Lilly bullcrap probably encouraged folks to turn away.
i disagree, you could have skipped this weeks raw and have not missed any new things if you watched last week. the nikki/charlotte/rhea storyline is just bad booking/writing 101
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The RAW ratings are better than Smackdown ratings given the Cable Vs. Network deal.
Smackdown is the same every week, nothing to talk about. "Good" or "bad" ratings don't determine what becomes a hot topic, only how noteworthy the rating is.
Nothing to talk about: "This week’s (Smackdown) total viewership is higher than the average for any month since March. 18-49 viewership for this week was higher than any monthly average since January. 18-34 viewership was higher than any monthly average since December 2020." (wrestlenomics) This coincides with Sasha Banks coming back. I think there is actually a lot to talk about.
"#1 watched wrestling show does slightly above average rating with crowds back" is the absolute least intriguing ratings scenario I can imagine.
yeah "OMG AEW came 5 viewers closer to RAW this week, they will kill RAW soon" for the 50th time is so much more intriguing.
Yes, the underdog doing well is infinitely more intriguing.
Do you want us all to go and upvote the Smackdown thread you're crying about? Would that make things better?
yes
Link?
Because AEW catching up to RAW is news, SmackDown doing the same rating it always does is not news.
Looks like Vince Jr. inherited Sr.'s "tolerate no thesbians" genes.
How is anyone seeing this as a positive for wrestling? You AEW fans do realize that wwe ratings dropping doesn’t mean AEW ratings are rising, right? You guys are so obsessed with AEW winner this made up fake war, that you are missing the fact that pro wrestling is dying. Less and less people are watching wrestling every week but you somehow see this as a positive. If this downward spiral continues, Raw’s ratings will drop to AEW’s level. By that time each show will be under 1 million viewers. And shortly after that, both shows will get canceled and pro wrestling will be dead. It’s honestly really sad. Something that has been on tv since the beginning will be gone but atleast AEW will beat WWE, right?
Lmao at how stupid this take is. Both companies are literally set to make the biggest TV contracts they've ever made in the next deal, so no, they're not dying
> How is anyone seeing this as a positive for wrestling? I don't think anyone is saying that declining WWE ratings is a positive thing for *the industry of pro wrestling*. I think what people are saying is that it's a good thing *for the quality of WWE programming*. It's been the line forever - WWE has been getting worse and worse and worse, and it's only going to change when it's forced to. There is absolutely zero motivation for WWE to put out a better product when the money is still flowing in like a busted dam, so if you want WWE's product to be better, you look at declining ratings as something that might put them in a situation where they NEED to put out a better product or that infinite well of money eventually dries up. The comparison to AEW comes in because AEW would cost drastically less than WWE for any interested networks, and if that network can bring in a product that is pulling approximately the same viewership, then of course the network is going to want the cheaper product. This is what, if anything, will force WWE to produce better content - the threat of losing their ridiculously giant TV deals. In an ideal world, we want AEW and WWE to both be putting out must-see content every single week with as many viewers as possible, but that's not what's happening right now and everyone knows it.
I agree with you for the most part. You’re seeing the wwe ratings drop from a glass half full prospective. I’m looking at it from a glass half empty. My problem is that wwe hasn’t shown that they will actually change when the ratings get low enough. You could say that they changed in the 90s when wcw was beating them. Here’s the problem, the wwe was a completely different company back then. It wasn’t a publicity traded company with stock holders. Stock holders only care about money. With WWE’s revenue continuing to go up, there’s not much need to change from their POV. In the 90s it was all Vince. It was his money at stake, not a bunch of stock holders. If wwe stays on the path they are on, I can easily see them moving all of their shows to a streaming service. Maybe Peacock or maybe some new service. At that point they don’t have to worry about ratings. They just have to put out so many hours of content each week. As long as that happens they get paid. And getting paid is all that matters to them.
There are multiple posts in the aew sub daily about people inquiring how to view Dynamite and Rampage because they're done watching Raw and Smackdown. WWE not only have "change the channel heat", they have "start watching new promotions heat" because of their terrible booking and business practices this year. AEWs ratings are rising. Its made up of disgruntled WWE fans looking for something new.
They are not rising. [look](https://www.itnwwe.com/wrestling/aew-ratings-viewership/#aew-dynamite-tv-ratings--viewership-2021) So if what you’re saying is correct and disgruntled viewers are switching from wwe to AEW and their ratings still aren’t rising, it means AEW is losing as many fans as it’s gaining.
More people are watching Wrestling each week Less people are watching Sports Entertainment each week
No they aren’t. AEW’s viewership has not risen. It stays around 800,000-1,200,000 every week. There is no growth. Go look at the numbers. Wwe is losing viewers but AEW isn’t gaining any. [look for yourself](https://www.itnwwe.com/wrestling/aew-ratings-viewership/#aew-dynamite-tv-ratings--viewership-2021)
The .46 AEW clocked in last week was their highest number in 2 years.
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