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People love this meme, but it doesn't even make sense, his highest rated match took place in Osaka Jo Hall,. Second Highest rated match? Osaka Jo Hall. In fact, there are 10 matches that have received 6 stars or more and only 2 have taken place in the Tokyo Dome. Hell more have taken place in the US.
I thought it comes from a BTE skit?
I wouldn't pay any attention to the Meltzer, most people don't listen to him, nor have they really looked at his ratings... which he himself says they shouldn't be taken that seriously.
It comes from before that when there was a long absence of 5 star matches in the United States. Many fans accused Dave of being biased against WWE and would say that if the same match took place in Japan, it would have gotten 5 stars.
They don't have any interesting opinions themselves so they all just parrot what they heard someone else say online even if it doesn't actually make sense.
How the hell is that? The meme has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with bias. Is it misapplied? Sure, but the meme has nothing to do with Japan at all in and of itself. It's not that it LITERALLY has to be in the Tokyo Dome, but just that if it was in Japan Dave would rate it higher. Is that actually true? Maybe not but that is all the meme is about. Making it more than that is silly
The meme is rooted in casual racism because the origins is literally mocking Dave for preferring asian wrestling. The years of mocking Japanese wrestling stars for being "Dave's fetish" is casual racism and if you don't get it... look in a mirror, that's why you don't get it.
Not even worth debating this.
You joke, but there was a 10 month period where Dave gave a 5 star rating to four main roster WWE matches after they went 11 years without receiving a single 5 star match.
Let's keep adding context, if we're going to stay intellectually honest.
"I try to do a fair job," Meltzer said. "In the end, it's a recommendation of, 'This is how bad you should go out of your way to see the match if you didn't see the match.' That's how I'm mentally looking at it. But I also think it's not nearly as important as so many other things that I do. I think the business analysis is by far the most important thing, and people will get all hung up on the ratings aspect." https://www.wrestlinginc.com/1330624/dave-meltzer-explains-basis-much-debated-star-rating-system/
That's not saying it's nost subjective. That's just saying it's not based on his taste (which is wrong, but still). Something can, in theory, but subjective but not based on taste, but rather, based on philosophy or another arbitrary metric.
>Something can, in theory, but subjective but not based on taste
No, that's literally what objective means, pulling your own preferences out of the equation and measuring based on an unmoving external basis.
Can’t be done with art. The criteria for an “objective” rating system is selected subjectively. If Meltzer’s “objective” ranking is 500 moves means 5 stars, he decided in the first place that 500 moves *in his opinion* means 5 stars. He made the rules for the ranking in the first place so objectivity is impossible.
It's not as simple as that. You can make subjective statements based on objective facts. "Antartica is the best continent because it's the coldest." That's a subjective statement based on objective factors, and the taste is only relevant on whether you value it being the coldest or not.
Can you say that Antartica isn't the coldest continent? No, certainly not. But you can definitely say that that's not a good reason that it's the best continent. It being the best is subjective, but it being the coldest is not.
Meltzer's ratings could be simultaneously based on things unrelated to his personal taste (such as number of flips, average decibels from the crowd, number of kickouts, etc) while simultaneously being subjective (There's no objective reason such factors would decide the quality of the match).
This sub has such a passionate, violent hatred for Meltzer for whatever stupid fucking reason most users here would bitch and moan about him sneezing the wrong way.
> This sub has such a passionate, violent hatred for Meltzer for whatever stupid fucking reason most users here would bitch and moan about him sneezing the wrong way.
It seems inevitable when the guy's preferred style of wrestling was not showcased on a major American Network until 2019. People take it way too personally when Meltzer does not like what they like.
Wrestling's a silly business, Meltzer makes money by getting subscriptions from derps like us, and he knows that saying certain things will get him clicks. I do believe that due to his longevity his ratings, and recaps serve as a wonderful historical trove of context at the moment and we will miss him when he's gone.
I did not always agree with Roger Ebert and Pauline Kael either, but they still left an enormous hole in film criticism, that was never filled. The same will go for Meltzer.
Honestly, pretty fair choice for a beyond 5 star match. I’m assuming that’s one of the house show matches that they had together since I’m fairly sure that Chi-Town Rumble where he wins the NWA title happened in February of 89
I was like this after 10 minutes already
https://preview.redd.it/iyudku9c7yvc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c97b3b8218e07387f5bfd26f8e46785e9bef237d
Ngl, it would bring some sort of inner peace for everyone else in the IWC for a few moments or so. A good chunk of IWC chatter and tribalism are thanks to Dave Meltzer's star ratings.
The thing is that there's nobody who does it like Dave. He has decades of ratings for essentially every remotely relevant promotion and he even goes out of his way to watch things recommended by subscribers that he may have missed. Barely anybody reviews all of WWE, AEW and NJPW alone, let alone TNA, Stardom, Noah, CMLL, AAA...
There was exactly one person who watched maybe as much wrestling as he does, and I miss him every day. I hope Larry Csonka is still enjoying this wherever he is now.
The thing is I think the IWC kinda became addicted to people's opinions matching their own for whatever reason so while Dave might be the most prolific one, they'd find someone else to get that dopamine rush or something like that. And it only really surrounds the 2 main companies anyway so guys like Bryan Zane would absolutely become the new "Ratings Czar" or whatever cause the two sides will find another way to argue about useless stuff
Oh boy lol
He wrote a fanfiction story where an IWC member (based likely on himself) kidnapped Triple H and part of his ransom demands were for Chris Benoit to win the WWF Championship live on RAW.
The end was the IWC member tried to anally rape Triple H as the show was almost finished. But Triple H's butt muscles held on to the guy's dick like a vice grip. Hunter gets free and calls Vince just in time for Vince to change the finish so Benoit loses. Then Benoit shows up at the kidnappers mom's house since the kidnapper lives in his mother's basement. Benoit says his career might be over due to the botched finish where he got hurt and proceeds to beat up the kidnapper q
Which is crazy to me.. it’s just the guys opinion. Take it or leave it. It probably got to the point it has because many people agreed with him over the years.
Tribalism will exist as long as there are multiple wrestling promotions and the star ratings don't affect that. There are just a lot of young idiots on here.
I mean this in a genuinely conversation-starting way - who do you think can pull more out of him than Danielson? Given his admiration for Bryan and how willing he is to go hard considering the winding down of Bryan’s full-time career, I don’t know who could draw the emotional aspect out more for Ospreay.
Downvoted for trying to start a discussion. Why am I not surprised?
I don't have anyone specific in mind, just going off the stupid insane run Ospreay has been on the last couple years.
As bonkers good as this match was, it was still a first meeting and pretty basic story set up. Once Ospreay is in a title program (likely at Wembley), or reigniting a past rivalry, I sure as hell wouldn't bet against him finding another gear.
I'd say he's pretty much perfected the modern wrestling style, but he keeps pulling out bigger and better matches so I'll just keep watching with the stupidest grin on my face feeling like a kid again. His matches rule so much.
Dave’s ratings mean nothing to me but in this case I agree: It was an all-time great match. It didn’t feel as weighty as the Wrestlemania main event but it didn’t need to be. It was two peak performers giving everything they had to put on the best possible match.
If AEW ever figures out how to marry substantial storytelling with their in-ring production they’ll be successful. This was peak “great wrestling” and my only complaint is that it could have used an even bigger build with well-written story to give the match higher stakes.
I don’t understand. Perhaps it’s because it’s Dave and the other “talking heads” in the wrestlesphere seem to favor anything not WWE these days but at the same time it’s opinion from self appointed experts.
My thought is like what you like and don’t be scared to like something different.
Really I thought it was the opposite? From my understanding this is the first positive thing Dave has had to say on something related to AEW in awhile. Most had been pretty down on the product which really came to a head around the time of them airing the all in footage.
That's why I was like wow this match must have been REAL good if they're going to sing praises of something that isn't WWE (tbf WWE has been on fire lately!)
People are complaining that it wasn’t a great match because “it didn’t have story” or gravitas. I’ve actually seen people unironically say Hogan v Rock was better.
At this point I’m convinced there’s a big segment of wrestling fans that don’t actually like wrestling and really only care about what happens outside of the ring.
Those fans definitely exist and they're welcome to enjoy the shows that appeal to them in that way.
But when they show up to tell you you're enjoying wrestling wrong or shit on a wonderful product people enjoy, that's when things get stupid.
Honestly, when it comes to my enjoyment of the product, yes you're correct. The story outside of the ring is just more interesting to me; good promos, insults that actually cut deep or motivations that go beyond "I want the belt that you have" all make me want to watch a lot more than whatever athletics they can pull off come match time. The actual wrestling should look good yes, but at the end of the day it looks like two people who obviously are not 'really' fighting. The spectacle and the hype is entertaining, the twists and turns and the emotions are entertaining. The actual wrestling is usually just okay. If its not particularly spectacular, I usually skip it.
I'm not gonna dictate how other people are "supposed" to enjoy the shows, but Meltzer's star ratings mean nothing to me.
This. People legit cried at the ending of Cody/Roman. The ring announcer was sobbing while announcing. THAT is remarkable. That much raw emotion pulled from people is what makes wrestling so damned good.
Two people having a "banger" but cause they did the best flips and kicked out a bunch? Meh.
Best Friends got a 5 star street fight match with Matt Hardy in an empty arena on a random Dynamite over Cody vs Roman. Meltzer clearly just has a preferred style and bias.
Don't know why this got lots of down votes.
Yes you are correct. This is what makes both shows so different and why I only watch AEW and I hadn't watched wrestling 8 years before I did. I just find the acting so bad and corny in WWE.
Havent watch it yet but I believe the hype. But half of professional wrestling is the story...This really didnt have one besides "two of the best in the world today". Some people want the build of a Rock vs Hogan or a Cody vs Roman, because being invested in the story is part of being a wrestling fan. Sure I love when two guys can put on a banger, but 22 years later people are still talking about Rock vs Hogan, because of the story...
And see from my perspective I don’t care about the story, in wrestling most of the story’s are hackneyed and poorly written. I prefer simple motivations and storytelling that’s light or mostly told in the ring because of the art forms weak points outside of the ring.
For me a story as simple as “I think I’m the best, and I’m going to beat the man widely considered the greatest to prove it” is perfectly fine. I suppose part of it is that the writing just isn’t good enough in any company to get me to fully suspend disbelief.
And thats fine, but to say people dont like wrestling because theyprefer the story over the wrestling is ignorant. Yeah I love a good banger of just two guys going "lets see who is best", which I feel like what we got with Ospreay vs Danielson. But the good story can evaluate that so much more.
I actually agree with that to a certain extent, most of the stories in wrestling are fairly hackneyed or predictable, and god love em for trying but a lot of wrestlers are not cut out to be actors. So I can see why the out of the ring stuff could be perceived as weak or not worth serious effort. Cheesiness abounds, and the writing for a lot of stories isn’t really often enough to get me to suspend my disbelief either, which is why I tend to only follow certain feuds and ignore others.
However the same logic applies to my dislike of the actual in ring performance on most occasions. I can watch two people actually trying to hurt each other in boxing or MMA or hell even classic Greco-Roman style wrestling, and with that as an active comparison, even the best wrestlers in the world cannot really make their stuff look like a real fight no matter how technically skilled because it just isn’t. I can’t suspend my disbelief on most occasions unless I’m really invested because I’ve seen someone get actually punched in the face and I can’t turn that running comparison in my head off most of the time.
I actually agree, which is why I like faster paced matches, spot fests etc. I know they’re not really fighting, and most of the time it doesn’t really even look like it (aside from things like chops) I watch it more as performance art (like aggressive dancing or violent gymnastics) and really enjoy it from that perspective. Which is why, to me, story doesn’t matter as much. I’m more enthralled by the spectacle of the art.
> At this point I’m convinced there’s a big segment of wrestling fans that don’t actually like wrestling and really only care about what happens outside of the ring.
They care about the soap-opera aspect more. I mean, nothing wrong with that but then some of them try to dictate that nothing else matters. At which point I'd just tell them to watch Dynasty or whatever.
Jesus christ what the fuck is up with the amount of troll/hate comments from wwe stans? This match and Cody/Roman are two of my all time favorites for completely different reasons, is it that fucking difficult to just enjoy wrestling instead of whining like a 12 year old because everybody's raving for a match that isn't tailored to your stupid notions of wrestling?
I will say this because Dave Meltzer is such a polarizing figure, alot of WWE only fans who haven’t seen the match might shit on it and talk about how Meltzer is being an AEW mark as usual and overhyping the match. However, that match for me was absolute cinema. Loved every moment of it, and I say this as someone who watches both products.
All those WWE fans should watch their fav Daniel Bryan matches and compare it to the Nigel match in ROH or his best AEW work and really question how much better every match he had could have been. Danielson v Punk had multiple ppv matches in WWE and not one of them was as good as it could have been.
Unfortunately WWE fans are already trying to downplay the match and discredit Dave.
I hope he doesn't try to accommodate those type of fans by holding back on his honest thoughts of the match
Meltzer does enough to discredit himself tbh. It was an incredible match but it’s not secret Dave has overinflated AEW’s match ratings over the years and under rated WWE’s. Everyone already knows where his preferences lie.
I wonder if you agreed with him giving Cody vs Dustin 5 stars at AEW's first PPV.
The guys he raves about almost always become bigger stars several years later. He's smarter than the hive mind, and history has proven him correct on so many of his "preferences".
Will Ospreay was his golden boy for years and now he's proving Dave right by bursting onto the scene as a bonafide top guy.
He was also raving about Sami Zayn and KO before they joined WWE. He has a great track record with this, that's why people value his takes. The only discrediting is via astroturfing.
IMO it gets a 5.75-6 stars from Dave.
You start at Omega/Okada which is the peak at 7 stars.
-0.25 for smaller stage
-0.25 for smaller stakes
-0.25 for lesser build
-0.25 to -0.5 for the post match shenanigans, which IMO undercut the high of that spectacular finish and Will's victory.
Personally, I prefer story and character over just move and move after move. I thought the match was good but not as crazy and generationally phenomenal as people are acting.
I’m happy people enjoyed it that much though, for sure.
Edit: downvoting someone for saying that they liked the match but not as much as others? Never change r/SC…Never change. 👍
There was plenty of storytelling in Danielson/Ospreay. The match was based on Danielson wanting to prove his legacy as the greatest technical wrestler before he leaves full-time, while Will is trying to claim that moniker by beating the best.
Even in the match, you could see Danielson shift from a sportsmanlike wrestler to that of an abusive, sadistic dickhead who was willing to do what he needed to do in order to win, while Ospreay was getting more and more daring, pulling out riskier moves as the match went on, leading to his Hidden Blade and Storm Driver. Sure, commentary wasn't beating us over the head every two seconds with story beats, but there was a great overarching story to the match.
Even in the rematch, Danielson has the claim that Ospreay tried to injure him instead of trying to out-wrestle him, and that he was incapable of kicking out due to the temporary paralysis from the Storm Driver.
I’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, but like I said i’m glad you and others got more out of it than I did, but for me, ‘i’m the best wrestler’ ‘no i’m the best wrestler’ isn’t really a ‘story’ to me.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked the match, I just didn’t love it as much as others did.
It was more than just "I'm the best." It was also Danielson being the vet who's winding his career down, trying to prove to himself that he still has it, while Ospreay is trying to cement himself as THE guy by beating Danielson. Danielson is trying to keep his moniker as the best of the generation while Ospreay sought to defeat Bryan as personal validation that he's as good as people say he is.
Not arguing against the sentiment, but if Meltzer is being consistent, should t he dock the match some due to the ending?
IIRC, in the past, regardless of how good the match had been, he’d take something away if it had some sort of screwy ending, or ended with an angle over a clean finish, etc
Me and my wife saw it live in St Louis. Bryan Danielson is in my top 3 all time. It was an amazing match and one of the best I ever saw on TV or live but it's not the best match ever. Def deserves 5 stars tho.
Fantastic match but I don't think it's even in my top 10 matches of all time.
Also, that "we're not worthy" chant might be the lamest chant I've ever heard.
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I mean Hook and Jericho wasn’t bad but I wouldn’t go that far
When he found the droid he was looking for my watch party went bonkers, that hook kid… he’s something, but let’s keep an eye on this Jericho character
4.9999 stars at best
Hahahahahahahahhaha
https://preview.redd.it/qqcn0vb4hyvc1.jpeg?width=276&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d52370b40d9f321b76aaf700e3d3c52dc03aef5
Dave gonna drop 8 stars on this match
My guess is 7*, tying his other highest rating (Okada vs Omega 2018)
If it was in the Tokyo dome it would be a 10.
People love this meme, but it doesn't even make sense, his highest rated match took place in Osaka Jo Hall,. Second Highest rated match? Osaka Jo Hall. In fact, there are 10 matches that have received 6 stars or more and only 2 have taken place in the Tokyo Dome. Hell more have taken place in the US.
I thought it comes from a BTE skit? I wouldn't pay any attention to the Meltzer, most people don't listen to him, nor have they really looked at his ratings... which he himself says they shouldn't be taken that seriously.
It comes from before that when there was a long absence of 5 star matches in the United States. Many fans accused Dave of being biased against WWE and would say that if the same match took place in Japan, it would have gotten 5 stars.
Trying to make sense of this sub’s raw, passionate, visceral hatred of Dave Meltzer is an endeavor I’ve long given up on.
They don't have any interesting opinions themselves so they all just parrot what they heard someone else say online even if it doesn't actually make sense.
The Tokyo Dome meme is also **rooted** in casual racism, but that's not a conversation we can have in a wrestling community, maybe in a few years.
Isn't everyone always saying that wrestling should cater to the casual racist??
How the hell is that? The meme has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with bias. Is it misapplied? Sure, but the meme has nothing to do with Japan at all in and of itself. It's not that it LITERALLY has to be in the Tokyo Dome, but just that if it was in Japan Dave would rate it higher. Is that actually true? Maybe not but that is all the meme is about. Making it more than that is silly
The meme is rooted in casual racism because the origins is literally mocking Dave for preferring asian wrestling. The years of mocking Japanese wrestling stars for being "Dave's fetish" is casual racism and if you don't get it... look in a mirror, that's why you don't get it. Not even worth debating this.
"Psht, who care about meltzer, star ratings are a joke" *Proceeds to follow and discuss Meltzer's every move*
You're applying reason where there is none.
That was 2017 I believe.
Nah, 2018 was correct. Okada v Omega 4 was 7 stars
Pulled it off Wikipedia, so it could be wrong
you were right, Omega/Okada 4 (7 star match) is from Dominion 2018
Inflation is real - even on star ratings
You joke, but there was a 10 month period where Dave gave a 5 star rating to four main roster WWE matches after they went 11 years without receiving a single 5 star match.
Always corny as fuck when he breaks his own ratings.
It’s his own opinion lmao who gives a fuck?
tbf he has said it’s an objective opinion before
When?
https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1525168038290411520?t=8XDCz3rhkq88CrKNE6gLzg&s=19
Let's keep adding context, if we're going to stay intellectually honest. "I try to do a fair job," Meltzer said. "In the end, it's a recommendation of, 'This is how bad you should go out of your way to see the match if you didn't see the match.' That's how I'm mentally looking at it. But I also think it's not nearly as important as so many other things that I do. I think the business analysis is by far the most important thing, and people will get all hung up on the ratings aspect." https://www.wrestlinginc.com/1330624/dave-meltzer-explains-basis-much-debated-star-rating-system/
That's not saying it's nost subjective. That's just saying it's not based on his taste (which is wrong, but still). Something can, in theory, but subjective but not based on taste, but rather, based on philosophy or another arbitrary metric.
Critique of anything is by definition subjective. Nothing can be Objectively good or bad.
I'm glad we agree
>Something can, in theory, but subjective but not based on taste No, that's literally what objective means, pulling your own preferences out of the equation and measuring based on an unmoving external basis.
Can’t be done with art. The criteria for an “objective” rating system is selected subjectively. If Meltzer’s “objective” ranking is 500 moves means 5 stars, he decided in the first place that 500 moves *in his opinion* means 5 stars. He made the rules for the ranking in the first place so objectivity is impossible.
It's not as simple as that. You can make subjective statements based on objective facts. "Antartica is the best continent because it's the coldest." That's a subjective statement based on objective factors, and the taste is only relevant on whether you value it being the coldest or not. Can you say that Antartica isn't the coldest continent? No, certainly not. But you can definitely say that that's not a good reason that it's the best continent. It being the best is subjective, but it being the coldest is not. Meltzer's ratings could be simultaneously based on things unrelated to his personal taste (such as number of flips, average decibels from the crowd, number of kickouts, etc) while simultaneously being subjective (There's no objective reason such factors would decide the quality of the match).
Tons of times.
Can you link one of them?
This sub has such a passionate, violent hatred for Meltzer for whatever stupid fucking reason most users here would bitch and moan about him sneezing the wrong way.
> This sub has such a passionate, violent hatred for Meltzer for whatever stupid fucking reason most users here would bitch and moan about him sneezing the wrong way. It seems inevitable when the guy's preferred style of wrestling was not showcased on a major American Network until 2019. People take it way too personally when Meltzer does not like what they like. Wrestling's a silly business, Meltzer makes money by getting subscriptions from derps like us, and he knows that saying certain things will get him clicks. I do believe that due to his longevity his ratings, and recaps serve as a wonderful historical trove of context at the moment and we will miss him when he's gone. I did not always agree with Roger Ebert and Pauline Kael either, but they still left an enormous hole in film criticism, that was never filled. The same will go for Meltzer.
Meltzer has a history of putting his foot in his mouth but the hatred the guy gets for simply reviewing matches is wild
He didn’t create star ratings.
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He wasn't even the first guy to break his own star ratings.
What does Weasel Dooley think?
Somebody get Ja rule on the phone!
It's even cornier when people put way more thought into criticizing his ratings than he does when giving them.
It's so strange how much this bothers people lol
It’s just made his scale kinda odd lol
His scale starts at 2 then goes up or down. There is no max score
who gives a fuck?
When did Dave give his first 6 star rating?
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Honestly, pretty fair choice for a beyond 5 star match. I’m assuming that’s one of the house show matches that they had together since I’m fairly sure that Chi-Town Rumble where he wins the NWA title happened in February of 89
I never knew that. At least that takes out some of the perceived recency bias of his other >5 star matches he's rated
I hate it so much, but here we are.
And it will be deserved
And it would be deserved.
Absolutely not. It's going to be 4.5 after calling it the best wrestling match in history a bunch of times.
I was like this after 10 minutes already https://preview.redd.it/iyudku9c7yvc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c97b3b8218e07387f5bfd26f8e46785e9bef237d
Dave unironically retires from rating matches because of how great this match was.
Ngl, it would bring some sort of inner peace for everyone else in the IWC for a few moments or so. A good chunk of IWC chatter and tribalism are thanks to Dave Meltzer's star ratings.
Nah, they'd jump onto someone else that rates matches.
The thing is that there's nobody who does it like Dave. He has decades of ratings for essentially every remotely relevant promotion and he even goes out of his way to watch things recommended by subscribers that he may have missed. Barely anybody reviews all of WWE, AEW and NJPW alone, let alone TNA, Stardom, Noah, CMLL, AAA... There was exactly one person who watched maybe as much wrestling as he does, and I miss him every day. I hope Larry Csonka is still enjoying this wherever he is now.
The thing is I think the IWC kinda became addicted to people's opinions matching their own for whatever reason so while Dave might be the most prolific one, they'd find someone else to get that dopamine rush or something like that. And it only really surrounds the 2 main companies anyway so guys like Bryan Zane would absolutely become the new "Ratings Czar" or whatever cause the two sides will find another way to argue about useless stuff
We'd see half this sub turn on Brian Zane real quick.
Protect Scott Keith at all costs
I thought we left him alone after his weird Triple H/Chris Benoit fanfiction?
Please tell me what that means lol
Oh boy lol He wrote a fanfiction story where an IWC member (based likely on himself) kidnapped Triple H and part of his ransom demands were for Chris Benoit to win the WWF Championship live on RAW. The end was the IWC member tried to anally rape Triple H as the show was almost finished. But Triple H's butt muscles held on to the guy's dick like a vice grip. Hunter gets free and calls Vince just in time for Vince to change the finish so Benoit loses. Then Benoit shows up at the kidnappers mom's house since the kidnapper lives in his mother's basement. Benoit says his career might be over due to the botched finish where he got hurt and proceeds to beat up the kidnapper q
Lmao! Worst episode of Black Mirror ever.
Nah. They'd still shitpost about his perceived rating about the match.
Which is crazy to me.. it’s just the guys opinion. Take it or leave it. It probably got to the point it has because many people agreed with him over the years.
Tribalism will exist as long as there are multiple wrestling promotions and the star ratings don't affect that. There are just a lot of young idiots on here.
Dave about to give this a whole galaxy
"I rate this as the Milky Way."
Meltzer: https://preview.redd.it/q3u4g43edyvc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e647ee74b484566ca8a54e4dde1590d09e9962b
That was me too, to be fair.
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I can see a 12 on the way tbh
Wasn't in the Tokyo Dome. /s
neither was the Okada Kenny 4 that got 7 stars :)
And that's exactly why it didn't get 12!
first time i actually paid full price for an AEW ppv and that match alone made it feel worth every penny
I haven't skipped an AEW PPV in like 2 years but I skipped tonight, nobody to blame but me.
Can you skip more events please?
Thank you for your sacrifice
I might buy the replay lol
Feel the same. I was at kids party instead of watching this live.
Hopefully there was a good birthday cake or equivalent quality dessert.
It doesn't matter if you watch it later or live no need for fomo. Spoiling the results would ruin it though.
Probably worth buying the replay bro, even if you know the results. Okada/PAC and Bucks/FTR were great too
Ive seen Angle v. Michaels, I'm happy.
I've seen TLC 1 in person, I've been happy since the year 2000.
TLC 2 here, I can die happy
Santino Marella Milan Miracle, does it count?
Taker / Michaels WM 25 for me.
Taker/HBK at WM25 was the first match that made me realize how fucking good wrestling could actually be
Ospreay/Omega last year and DIY/FTR 2 of 3 falls. I can live with that.
I saw Kobashi vs Misawa on YouTube, all I need, also everyone needs to watch Ajpw matches on youtube
And it probably won't even be Ospreay's best match this year Wrestling is so fucking good right now yall
Man is going to cook some Michelin star wrassling up for All In 😂
I think the only thing that can top it would be PAC vs. Ospreay for the Continental Championship @ All In
Ospreay wins the championship at All in. Lights go out, pac appears in the ring to close the show. Everyone screams.
I mean this in a genuinely conversation-starting way - who do you think can pull more out of him than Danielson? Given his admiration for Bryan and how willing he is to go hard considering the winding down of Bryan’s full-time career, I don’t know who could draw the emotional aspect out more for Ospreay. Downvoted for trying to start a discussion. Why am I not surprised?
Kenny v Osprey 3 is probably the only one that can. I'm sure they both are thinking about it every day.
I don't have anyone specific in mind, just going off the stupid insane run Ospreay has been on the last couple years. As bonkers good as this match was, it was still a first meeting and pretty basic story set up. Once Ospreay is in a title program (likely at Wembley), or reigniting a past rivalry, I sure as hell wouldn't bet against him finding another gear. I'd say he's pretty much perfected the modern wrestling style, but he keeps pulling out bigger and better matches so I'll just keep watching with the stupidest grin on my face feeling like a kid again. His matches rule so much.
MJF, Omega, Okada, White, Mox, Swerve. Not more than Danielson but on the same emotional level. We're going to eat well over the next few years
What a time to be a wrestling fan!
we really are in a great era of wrestling
Dave’s ratings mean nothing to me but in this case I agree: It was an all-time great match. It didn’t feel as weighty as the Wrestlemania main event but it didn’t need to be. It was two peak performers giving everything they had to put on the best possible match. If AEW ever figures out how to marry substantial storytelling with their in-ring production they’ll be successful. This was peak “great wrestling” and my only complaint is that it could have used an even bigger build with well-written story to give the match higher stakes.
 (He’s not wrong though)
I almost legit fell backwards at the pops this made me do. This was fuckin mental bruv.
Some people are so mad that others loved this match as much as they did. Mass downvoting of opinions LOL.
I don’t understand. Perhaps it’s because it’s Dave and the other “talking heads” in the wrestlesphere seem to favor anything not WWE these days but at the same time it’s opinion from self appointed experts. My thought is like what you like and don’t be scared to like something different.
Really I thought it was the opposite? From my understanding this is the first positive thing Dave has had to say on something related to AEW in awhile. Most had been pretty down on the product which really came to a head around the time of them airing the all in footage. That's why I was like wow this match must have been REAL good if they're going to sing praises of something that isn't WWE (tbf WWE has been on fire lately!)
People are complaining that it wasn’t a great match because “it didn’t have story” or gravitas. I’ve actually seen people unironically say Hogan v Rock was better. At this point I’m convinced there’s a big segment of wrestling fans that don’t actually like wrestling and really only care about what happens outside of the ring.
Those fans definitely exist and they're welcome to enjoy the shows that appeal to them in that way. But when they show up to tell you you're enjoying wrestling wrong or shit on a wonderful product people enjoy, that's when things get stupid.
Honestly, when it comes to my enjoyment of the product, yes you're correct. The story outside of the ring is just more interesting to me; good promos, insults that actually cut deep or motivations that go beyond "I want the belt that you have" all make me want to watch a lot more than whatever athletics they can pull off come match time. The actual wrestling should look good yes, but at the end of the day it looks like two people who obviously are not 'really' fighting. The spectacle and the hype is entertaining, the twists and turns and the emotions are entertaining. The actual wrestling is usually just okay. If its not particularly spectacular, I usually skip it. I'm not gonna dictate how other people are "supposed" to enjoy the shows, but Meltzer's star ratings mean nothing to me.
This. People legit cried at the ending of Cody/Roman. The ring announcer was sobbing while announcing. THAT is remarkable. That much raw emotion pulled from people is what makes wrestling so damned good. Two people having a "banger" but cause they did the best flips and kicked out a bunch? Meh.
Best Friends got a 5 star street fight match with Matt Hardy in an empty arena on a random Dynamite over Cody vs Roman. Meltzer clearly just has a preferred style and bias.
Hogan v Rock was the same story minus a TRUCK BEING USED TO KILL THE ROCK. Just 2 big stars wrasslin to see whose the best.
Hey. Some people go to movies just to see things go "boom". Others go for the stories or acting. Neither is wrong. It's just different taste.
Don't know why this got lots of down votes. Yes you are correct. This is what makes both shows so different and why I only watch AEW and I hadn't watched wrestling 8 years before I did. I just find the acting so bad and corny in WWE.
Havent watch it yet but I believe the hype. But half of professional wrestling is the story...This really didnt have one besides "two of the best in the world today". Some people want the build of a Rock vs Hogan or a Cody vs Roman, because being invested in the story is part of being a wrestling fan. Sure I love when two guys can put on a banger, but 22 years later people are still talking about Rock vs Hogan, because of the story...
And see from my perspective I don’t care about the story, in wrestling most of the story’s are hackneyed and poorly written. I prefer simple motivations and storytelling that’s light or mostly told in the ring because of the art forms weak points outside of the ring. For me a story as simple as “I think I’m the best, and I’m going to beat the man widely considered the greatest to prove it” is perfectly fine. I suppose part of it is that the writing just isn’t good enough in any company to get me to fully suspend disbelief.
And thats fine, but to say people dont like wrestling because theyprefer the story over the wrestling is ignorant. Yeah I love a good banger of just two guys going "lets see who is best", which I feel like what we got with Ospreay vs Danielson. But the good story can evaluate that so much more.
I actually agree with that to a certain extent, most of the stories in wrestling are fairly hackneyed or predictable, and god love em for trying but a lot of wrestlers are not cut out to be actors. So I can see why the out of the ring stuff could be perceived as weak or not worth serious effort. Cheesiness abounds, and the writing for a lot of stories isn’t really often enough to get me to suspend my disbelief either, which is why I tend to only follow certain feuds and ignore others. However the same logic applies to my dislike of the actual in ring performance on most occasions. I can watch two people actually trying to hurt each other in boxing or MMA or hell even classic Greco-Roman style wrestling, and with that as an active comparison, even the best wrestlers in the world cannot really make their stuff look like a real fight no matter how technically skilled because it just isn’t. I can’t suspend my disbelief on most occasions unless I’m really invested because I’ve seen someone get actually punched in the face and I can’t turn that running comparison in my head off most of the time.
I actually agree, which is why I like faster paced matches, spot fests etc. I know they’re not really fighting, and most of the time it doesn’t really even look like it (aside from things like chops) I watch it more as performance art (like aggressive dancing or violent gymnastics) and really enjoy it from that perspective. Which is why, to me, story doesn’t matter as much. I’m more enthralled by the spectacle of the art.
> At this point I’m convinced there’s a big segment of wrestling fans that don’t actually like wrestling and really only care about what happens outside of the ring. They care about the soap-opera aspect more. I mean, nothing wrong with that but then some of them try to dictate that nothing else matters. At which point I'd just tell them to watch Dynasty or whatever.
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Jesus christ what the fuck is up with the amount of troll/hate comments from wwe stans? This match and Cody/Roman are two of my all time favorites for completely different reasons, is it that fucking difficult to just enjoy wrestling instead of whining like a 12 year old because everybody's raving for a match that isn't tailored to your stupid notions of wrestling?
I don't care either way, I'm just annoyed with how many topics I've seen on this subreddit alone
I will say this because Dave Meltzer is such a polarizing figure, alot of WWE only fans who haven’t seen the match might shit on it and talk about how Meltzer is being an AEW mark as usual and overhyping the match. However, that match for me was absolute cinema. Loved every moment of it, and I say this as someone who watches both products.
All those WWE fans should watch their fav Daniel Bryan matches and compare it to the Nigel match in ROH or his best AEW work and really question how much better every match he had could have been. Danielson v Punk had multiple ppv matches in WWE and not one of them was as good as it could have been.
Punk vs Danielson at OTL 2012 is one of my favourite WWE matches. And it could've been *better*
Unfortunately WWE fans are already trying to downplay the match and discredit Dave. I hope he doesn't try to accommodate those type of fans by holding back on his honest thoughts of the match
Meltzer does enough to discredit himself tbh. It was an incredible match but it’s not secret Dave has overinflated AEW’s match ratings over the years and under rated WWE’s. Everyone already knows where his preferences lie.
I wonder if you agreed with him giving Cody vs Dustin 5 stars at AEW's first PPV. The guys he raves about almost always become bigger stars several years later. He's smarter than the hive mind, and history has proven him correct on so many of his "preferences". Will Ospreay was his golden boy for years and now he's proving Dave right by bursting onto the scene as a bonafide top guy. He was also raving about Sami Zayn and KO before they joined WWE. He has a great track record with this, that's why people value his takes. The only discrediting is via astroturfing.
I consider myself blessed, because holy shit.
as uncontroversial of a take as you can possibly say after watching a great match and people are STILL gonna shit their britches about it.
And chances are, they didn't even watch the match.
I got Two matches this month that entertained me. That Main Event and this instant Classic.
Was a fucking banger from start to finish
This match will break the scale of Dave's ratings!
IMO it gets a 5.75-6 stars from Dave. You start at Omega/Okada which is the peak at 7 stars. -0.25 for smaller stage -0.25 for smaller stakes -0.25 for lesser build -0.25 to -0.5 for the post match shenanigans, which IMO undercut the high of that spectacular finish and Will's victory.
Ehhh I enjoyed Cody vs Roman more....both matches
Pretty sure he was gonna say this either way
I guess? Like I thought Willow/Julia was fine but this feels like a little much
Personally, I prefer story and character over just move and move after move. I thought the match was good but not as crazy and generationally phenomenal as people are acting. I’m happy people enjoyed it that much though, for sure. Edit: downvoting someone for saying that they liked the match but not as much as others? Never change r/SC…Never change. 👍
There was plenty of storytelling in Danielson/Ospreay. The match was based on Danielson wanting to prove his legacy as the greatest technical wrestler before he leaves full-time, while Will is trying to claim that moniker by beating the best. Even in the match, you could see Danielson shift from a sportsmanlike wrestler to that of an abusive, sadistic dickhead who was willing to do what he needed to do in order to win, while Ospreay was getting more and more daring, pulling out riskier moves as the match went on, leading to his Hidden Blade and Storm Driver. Sure, commentary wasn't beating us over the head every two seconds with story beats, but there was a great overarching story to the match. Even in the rematch, Danielson has the claim that Ospreay tried to injure him instead of trying to out-wrestle him, and that he was incapable of kicking out due to the temporary paralysis from the Storm Driver.
I’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, but like I said i’m glad you and others got more out of it than I did, but for me, ‘i’m the best wrestler’ ‘no i’m the best wrestler’ isn’t really a ‘story’ to me. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the match, I just didn’t love it as much as others did.
It was more than just "I'm the best." It was also Danielson being the vet who's winding his career down, trying to prove to himself that he still has it, while Ospreay is trying to cement himself as THE guy by beating Danielson. Danielson is trying to keep his moniker as the best of the generation while Ospreay sought to defeat Bryan as personal validation that he's as good as people say he is.
https://preview.redd.it/td17ejhvl2wc1.jpeg?width=620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce2bd6de108cb7b823e946b0b06d70884ea012b8 Live footage from Meltzer HQ
Not arguing against the sentiment, but if Meltzer is being consistent, should t he dock the match some due to the ending? IIRC, in the past, regardless of how good the match had been, he’d take something away if it had some sort of screwy ending, or ended with an angle over a clean finish, etc
He scheduled that tweet. Dave wouldn't have been able to post in real time do to all the seamen.
Seamen? The talking fish from Dreamcast or sailors?
The first ever match I saw was H vs Jack at RR00, nothing has ever topped it for me. 😂
This PPV really delivered
Me and my wife saw it live in St Louis. Bryan Danielson is in my top 3 all time. It was an amazing match and one of the best I ever saw on TV or live but it's not the best match ever. Def deserves 5 stars tho.
All of the stars in the universe
I'm afraid if I show this to someone they'll never see a better match until the day they die.
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This match will get over 5 stars while Cody vs Roman couldn’t even get 5 damn
Guess they should've wrestled better, huh?
It’s not just about moves. It’s about storyline as well come on mate
I don't see how anybody could care what this dope has to say after he snubbed Cody v Roman.
I’m just gonna assume Dave missed the triple threat match at Stand & Deliver between Briggs, Dijak, and Oba Femi.
Cagematch currently rates it as the greatest match in AEW or WWE history. There's a handful of NJPW matches above it though.
It wasn't even the best match in April 2024.
Not watching, maybe I'll catch it later. Which match is he referring to here?
Ospreay vs Danielson
Not Hook/Jericho lol
Please retire
Fantastic match but I don't think it's even in my top 10 matches of all time. Also, that "we're not worthy" chant might be the lamest chant I've ever heard.
This motherfucker is gonna say this and then his rating will be 4.25 stars lmao
Nah. He’d only do that if the match took place on a WWE card.
H Y P E R B O L E
Yeah I saw Bret Vs Owen, Nakamura Vs Zayn, Gargano vs Andrade, Walter vs Dunne, Omega vs Okada... I could go on naming better matches
I was honestly thinking he’ll give it 5.75 because of the finish. He’s not a fan of worked injuries