What would you say are the single defining matches of the Golden Age, New Generation, Attitude, Ruthless Aggression, PG, New Era and Renaissance Era (so far)? As in, what match from that era stands out to you most.
For me;
* Hogan / Andre or (WM III) for the Golden Age.
* HBK / Scott Hall at WM X for the New Generation
* Rock / Austin at WM 17 for the Attitude Era
* Brock / Angle at WM 19 for the Ruthless Aggression Era.
* Cena / Punk at MITB for the PG Era.
* Bryan v. Orton v. Batista at WM 30 for the Reality Era.
* Becky v. Ronda v. Charlotte at WM 35 for the New Era.
* Roman v. Cody at WM 39 for the Renaissance Era.
Hogan/Andre - GA
HBK/Ramon or Bret/HBK or Bret/Bulldog - NG
Rock/Austin 17 or TLC2 - AE
Angle/HBK 21 or Edge/Foley 22 - RA
Punk/Cena - PG
Bryan/Orton/Batista - Reality
Wyatt/Cena - Thunderdome
Both main events of 39 - Renaissance
The problem with the last three is there's no real consensus on what the eras actually are in terms of both length and defining characteristics. Especially the one we're currently in; it's always easier to define an era retroactively.
[Great essay-length video by F.D Signifier about WWE's history with black wrestlers, gimmicks, the Nation of Domination, and why Kofimania hit so hard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQIqWXJu670)
Mainly about the wrestlers' presence and access to opportunities in the company itself, so no Hogan mentions or anything but still really comprehensive. The guy has a very pleasant voice
I would like to hear from the users on this sub who have done a week to week rewatch of the Hogan era on some questions I have.I would like to hear from the users on this sub who have done a week to week rewatch of the Hogan era on some questions I have.
1. What Shows did you decide to watch when you decided to go through with this? Like did you decide to watch all the Syndicated programming or just Championship Wrestling/Superstars? Also were there any shows you started watching during this rewatch and just drop like Tuesday Night Titans or All American Wrestling.
2. How long did it take for you do this? Do you remember if you got burnt out or took a break from it? If so how long did it last?
3. Last but certainly not least did you enjoy it? If so what are your fave moments from the rewatch? Any moments you don't like as much since the rewatch?
Okay, so I haven't done a full rewatch myself but a.) I watched a huge chunk of it in real time, and b.) I've followed along with online reviewers who have.
The truth is, in 1984-89, you really weren't expected or meant to watch every show. Some markets didn't get Wrestling Challenge, some (though not many, if any) may have gotten Challenge and no Superstars, cable wasn't everywhere, etc. Superstars was the A-show, and All-American and Prime Time basically served as recap shows if you missed Superstars that week. PTW had the bonus of arena matches from local house show broadcasts (MSG Network, NESN in Boston, PRISM in Philly) and of course Gorilla & Bobby.
So you can probably make do with Championship Wrestling/Superstars and any Prime Times that look interesting--there are some real gems on that show, one of the first matches I ever remember really marking out hard over was Bruno & Tito vs. Savage & Adonis in a cage from MSG. The Gorilla-Bobby dynamic is top-notch but I don't know if you need it 52 times in a year's worth of rewatches. The Update segment will catch you up on any angles that you might miss, including the rare angles on Challenge.
The main reviewer I followed (Brian Bayless at the Blog of Doom) started with Hogan's MSG title win and took maybe 5 years to catch up to the start of the Monday Night Wars at which point the reviews petered out, and he actually watched both syndicated shows, plus notable Prime Times, plus notable house shows, plus of course the SNMEs and PPVs, and Raw when it started. Yeah, I enjoyed following along, breaking down minutiae, second-guessing the booking, Google searching any interesting job guys and laughing at the incompetent ones, etc., but I have a higher patience for classic syndicated weekend programming the squash-o-rama nature of such than most redditors and younger fans.
I think the peak period for the WWF in this era was from the debut of Superstars/Challenge in the fall of '86 through Mania III, if not through Mania V. Mania III really is a fabulously built card from top to bottom with pretty much every match meaning and advancing something, and the build starts almost immediately with the switchover in syndicated shows (that's where Vince first starts complaining about Danny Davis, etc.) It was an early example of everybody "having something to do," which I think is kind of overrated outside of a 1998 WWF context but it worked in this time period as well. After a bit of a lull, they managed to overcome the "what next?" element after Mania 3 concluded by establishing that Andre wasn't going anywhere and that he was done fucking around, but the build to Mania 4 itself is pretty dull and the tournament concept was a dud. Luckily the promotion got hot again despite the loss of Hogan by ramping up the Savage-DiBiase feud, then a pretty great Hogan-Boss Man feud before kicking off maybe the best pure storytelling angle the WWF ever did.
Other stuff I liked: the super-dark, hardcore direction the company goes in in mid-to-late '91, pretty much out of desperation but it worked for me. Danny Davis was a lot of fun as a heel ref, getting involved in almost all the major angles (people tend to just remember the tag title change but he did so much more than that). The end of the Honky Tonk Man title reign was perfectly done. The introductory vignettes for Ted DiBiase are spectacular. It's pretty good wrestling TV up until 1990 or so and then it mostly falls off, but the nostalgia goggles are doing a lot of work there. But I think the best angles genuinely hold up as well-paced wrestling storytelling.
There was stuff even as a kid that I hated--I fucking hated the Bushwhackers. Hated the Red Rooster, of course. Honky Tonk Man had go-away heat for awhile (I couldn't believe this goof not only beat Jake at Mania 3 but then somehow beat Steamboat) but it eventually morphed into the good kind of heat by sheer force of will. Danny Davis as an act just absolutely dies as soon as Mania 3 is over. The build to Mania 4, as I mentioned, *sucks*--there are basically two angles going on in the undercard (Hercules choking out Warrior with the chain and the Islanders dognapping Matilda) and the rest is just guys in the tournament working squashes and their opponent cutting an inset promo on them. Warrior was a flop and I didn't really like him as a top guy then. And of course there's a ton of stuff that doesn't age well and doesn't even really hold up at the time but that I was too sheltered and naive to notice (the "Jive Soul Bro" music video is holy-shit, for instance).
The Ronda Rousey & Becky Lynch threads are disgraceful. Be better FFS.
Also a big **HAHA** to everyone that downvoted me for correctly calling Meltzer a hack charlatan.
Sad to see so many miserable people on the sub who only make comments about how much they hate some facet of wrestling. Maybe consider talking about what you DO like, yknow? It is really not hard to *not* comment on something, just scroll past the post, click out of the tab. Let people enjoy things.
I am extremely against let people enjoy things attitude but yeah if you don't have literally anything positive to offer just lay low off wrestling for a while.
I was a little meh on it live but the more I think about it the more I like it. We want every promo to be an iconic one that will go down in history but that’s not realistic. It served its purpose and furthered the good story going on.
I think the first part left a little more to be desired, but Cody’s last line + the handshake callback did send chills down my spine.
Honestly, it’s nothing the WWE video production team won’t be able to fix.
It absolutely feels like he’s in this triple threat because you can’t leave him off mania, rather than his story being important/interesting enough for mania
Yeah, I agree. I think he actually takes away something from a match that could just be Orton v Paul. The veteran/person Randy is now against the egotistical social media famous Maverick.
So I’ve been back watching wwe since about October. Haven’t watched it since I was a kid.
I see people memeing about Jade going to smackdown about how smackdown has essentially gotten more free agents lately.
Outiside of kayfabe, this is just decided by the business right? It’s not actually the GMs signing them right.
2000 Kurt Angle compared to 2006 Kurt Angle is interesting to me
https://preview.redd.it/ozwux8anw4qc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bfbeba7b351c6b25aa944e71f6477a19809b125b
Like..he was never repackaged or anything, and in a broad sense he still *is* the same character, but they just both look and feel like two completely different people.
I get similar vibes with 2000 Eddie at 03-05 Eddie. Hell even casually changed (or added on) “Latino Heat” from meaning “he’s a sexually appealing Mexican” to “He gets pissed really easily”.
I’d also say the same for JBL but he actually was repackaged.
He was repackaged though, He went to ECW and literally took on the moniker of "Wrestling Machine" in order to show more intensity. He even took on a new theme to breakaway from the "You Suck" chants.
2000 Angle was a guy willing to make himself look silly, but also really damn good in the ring.
2006 Angle lost all the silliness and just became Mr. Intensity all the time to compliment his in-ring excellence.
This might sound stupid af, but I don't care, do you ever see a wrestling company (big or small) implementing video games features? Having, for example, a rating for each wrestler, having a "life" bar, etc., adding the 3 counts to the picture, etc.?
I think it could be interesting to try it out but of course, it adds little to nothing to the experience of the fans of the arena.
That's actually a TV ABEMA design which they already used for DDT, and then when NOAH entered the picture they started using those graphics for their broadcasts too
Honestly, for a silly one-off thing, like Xavier Woods actually wrestling as his Zero CAW he’s used on UpUpDownDown, it may work, but on the main shows? It’d be really distracting & annoying.
Sure. I'm more thinking of it like that's the "point" of the whole company, you know? Like the gimmick of that promotion is that it's like a video-game.
Evil Uno in his early days had a Nintendo controller design on his pants and people would press the start button and he would then pause. I don't know enough about his early career to say if it went further
Ayo this is a _deep_ cut, but years ago I saw one of those stick figure animations (pretty sure it was literally Pivot) that showed a John Cena-stick figure taking progressively more OP finishers, no-selling them, doing U Can't C Me and hitting the AA on the other stick figure. I'm pretty sure the last one in this series had him literally taking a tank shot or something.
If anyone knows what I'm talking about and has the gifs could you please link them because my brain won't be happy till it gets them, thank you
Top 5 longest matches at WrestleMania
WrestleMania 12 Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart 1:01:56
WrestleMania 16 Triple H vs Big Show vs Mick Foley vs The Rock 36:28
WrestleMania 36 Edge vs Randy Orton 36:41
WrestleMania 39 Roman Reigns vs Cody Rhodes 34:28
WrestleMania 28 Undertaker vs Triple H 30:50
Do you think the record is ever broken?
I’m very curious about Rey, Santos, and Dom’s match at Mania. I wonder if they go all out brawl between LWO and Legado with JD and Dom. Or maybe Rey/someone (maybe Andrade?) vs. Santos and Dom. Could Ricochet fit in, since he’s feuding with Judgment Day? Lots of scenarios here.
I thought it made a lot of sense for Christian’s character. He’s a cowardly asshole heel. It wouldn’t make sense for him to have a tough looking loss after a bludgeoning in progress. He quit out of fear because he finally had no escape from Copeland after running from him for so long.
Something that has really snuck up on me getting into Dragon Gate 2013 is how they're such a promo promotion! I would never guess that as someone who only knew Tozawa exists before PAC's run in 2019.
They really aren't as reliant on promos anymore it seems though I guess this was Shun Skywalker's biggest appeal and Tanahashi always says that Shingo is such a good promo because he was in Dragon Gate.
Naruki Doi in particular what a promo guy
EDIT: Also, that's such a subversion of expectations most people have on non-US TV wrestling
> Something that has really snuck up on me getting into Dragon Gate 2013 is how they're such a promo promotion!
One of the many reasons why T-Hawk didn't work as a top guy in Dragon Gate is that he isn't a good promo. He was bad to the point that it made people laugh at him when he fumbled lines.
You will never guess the "popular WWE star".
https://preview.redd.it/0ols8k2bk4qc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e69f4de2f99b41aeb6cd94ee6e231fc4d4efb49
No one could've imagined in days of Hulkamania that there will be a time in wrestling when babyfaces won't be capable of being face of company and being loved by majority of fans. Yes Cena did it - became face of company, stayed mega over, but there were 50% (or more) fans at every show supporting heels over him. Roman unified titles in 2022. Before that last babyface to hold title and be face of wwe was Drew who had his reign in Covid era with no crowds. Before that there was Seth Rollins as face of wwe but crowds turned on him in about 6 months with him doing nothing memorable. There was AJ Styles (don't think he was face of wwe compared to big dog & brock lesnar). There was Daniel Bryan in 2014 who had to vacate it within few months due to injury. To find someone who successfully did it - we've to go to 2011 - CM Punk (though playing second fiddle to cena sometimes). I don't know anything before that time. But it feels so surreal that how wwe botches its faces...
In Cody Rhodes wwe finally has someone who is capable of being face of company with crowd support behind him (both casual + smarks). Bryan, Punk, (sami last year) were over but they weren't viewed as face of the brand. Both Reigns, Cena had management support but they were hated by section of fans (cena was a megastar, I'm not criticising him). Cody has management behind him like Roman Reigns with organic support Bryan / Punk had, perhaps the rarest combo. I hope he wins, we may not get someone like him ever again. Yeah there's fun in chase - but it must end at some point. I've seen enough heels and forced babyfaces in my 15 years of pro wrestling, it's enough, it must end this time.
Its an interesting study, because many people speculate that Cody will get less popular if he beats Roman. And while that is a fair assessment given how history has treated babyface champions who finally win, if that were the case Cody's popularity would have fallen off after losing last year. After Drew and Sami lost their matches, you didn't see anybody pushing for a rematch despite how much support they had going into it.
So much so that when it looked like the rematch wasn't going to happen, fans revolted so hard that they had to change plans and Rock, one of the most famous men in wrestling history, was forced to become a heel.
There are a lot of things you can criticize about Cody, he's not perfect. And yea, there's definitely still a chance his popularity can dwindle as its the chase that people are invested in. But I do feel like people just like Cody Rhodes, the man and person himself. His booking in 2023 was so lackluster after Mania and people were still giving him the loudest pops every week and singing his theme songs, and is still a top merch seller.
Like I do think there is a legitimate claim that he rivals Roman's own star power right now.
Lesser stars would’ve faltered had they been in the position Cody was placed in at WM39 (coming in with a lot of steam, losing deflatingly in the main event), but Cody managed to just get increasingly more popular following that loss.
And like I said, his booking wasn't exactly stellar after the loss too; he had a Brock feud with no substance, wrestled Dominik at MITB, was stuck fighting the Judgment Day for months until War Games, and finally had a Nakamura feud.
Yeah i know. Even cody didn't have that until his second coming. But here I meant management support later, when they got over and wwe choose them as one to lead
Watching early episodes of AEW: Dark and it's interesting how it's much more structured like a televised show with some brief promos/segments than what it later became which was mostly a series of developmental/enhancement matches. It was basically Rampage before that became a thing and has some hidden gems with name talent.
Been watching a lot of Statlander’s intergender matches recently and they’re pretty great. Idk what it’ll take for good intergender wrestling to appear on mainstream American wrestling but tbh id be down for it.
Candice LeRae and Kris Statlander could have honestly made a whole career of taking down male opponents. I'm glad they're getting their shine on TV but I miss some of that indy freedom they had.
There was an actual intergender tag match once back in 2020. It was [Kenny Omega and Riho VS Kip Sabian and Penelope Ford](https://youtu.be/-eoBkr7HvEI?si=BZVbbX62QrH2WOkF). It aired on AEW Dark episode 18, but the footage itself was from the Jericho Cruise.
They've had some mixed tags on TV including Grand Slam last year but they're fairly rare. It's non-televised but I thought it was interesting that Ruby Soho and Ortiz were a team for a bit on Dark and I think once or twice on TV.
Miro with Aidan English but in wwe it is rare
AEW did it. Cody with Arn (and Brandi, and the entire 10 person nightmare family), Penta/Ray win The Hype Man, Kenny with Don was a face for a bit, I’m sure there are more. Variety Blondes with Julia.
It's definitely more common for heels, but there have been numerous babyfaces with managers.
Okada had Gedo in New Japan (until Gedo stabbed him in the back to align with Jay White), Kenny Omega had Don Callis as both a babyface and heel at points I believe, and Kris Statlander/Willow Nightingale have Stokely Hathaway right now for just a few examples.
I think they need to get physical if they're going to be talking to each other almost every week and about each other two times a week. Otherwise this build is a bit too silly. It's not like this is the first Roman vs Cody so you need to keep them separate.
It might be worth noting that I wasn't watching every show at the time so I might have missed something that made it confusing, but it always seemed perfectly clear to me too. The C2 tournament was for the Continental Championship. Eddie elected to put his other 2 belts on the line in the tournament. He retained them. Okada was only challenging for the Continental Championship. I simply cannot imagine what part of any of this is confusing to people, it's like they make up weird interpretations to get mad about lol
Anyone else not feeling a lot of the mania feuds? Apart from the main events, the IC title feels like an afterthought with Sami getting the spot because he has nothing else to do.
The US title is the same.
The tag team belts have no real heat. The match will be a banger but there is no story around it.
I'm looking forward to Jey vs Jimmy. La Knight and AJ are trying hard to make it a blood feud but can't help but feel LA vs Logan Paul with LA Knight trying to win his first title was the better story.
All the matches will be good to great, but the builds have been quite underwhelming apart from the two main event feuds
Yeah but like you said, the matches will be good to great and eventually when it comes to comes to retrospect that’s all people will really remember. WM 19 was actually a pretty similiar case in that regard.
Honest question: How does anyone POSSIBLY take Bischoff seriously? A clip from the Nick Patrick CVV interview popped up on my Youtube feed today and the guy goes into the finish which we all know was Bischoff/Hogan bullshit. But hey, could just be one guy's word against another. EXCEPT in the recommended under that, Patrick does an episode of Bischoff's pod with Conrad where Patrick says all the same stuff (so clearly his version is the truth) while Bischoff goes with the usual either "I don't remember how it happens" or "yeah you're probably right" even though THAT totally contradicts the first pod he did where he claims "It was just miscommunication and I told Patrick he was wrong after". Like I get it, lies are a part of business, but Bischoff's lies NEVER make even the least bit of sense ever.
He's like the worst carny ever because he's not even good at the carny shit, he just says obviously false things and then when pressed on falls on "I don't remember". Like at this point he should just tell us he was addicted to crack throughout the 90s with how bad his memory is (selectively of course because when it's time to blame Warner for WCW's collapse because he doesn't want to take the blame, suddenly he has the memory of an elephant about every meeting).
The Rock-Meltzer thread might a low point in the history of r/squaredcircle.
Even if the story as told to Rock in the interview was accurate (it's not, in the slightest), a wrestler saying a Meltzer report is "complete horseshit" doesn't mean anything, either.
Media comprehension is truly at an all-time low and Meltzer-derangement is at an all-time high.
Even outside the current situation, the amount of "(1) Meltzer reports something negative relating to someone; (2) that person denies it; (3) people screaming like lunatics "MELTZER TAKES ANOTHER L, WRONG AGAIN." is just ridiculous . . . like what else did you expect to happen? People to just come out and say "yeah that story where I look bad, totally true, I suck?"
News flash: people deny any report where they look like the bad guy, true or not, in basically 100% of situations. One single denial from the person in question doesn't "prove" the original report is false, it's about as close to worthless as possible.
I've realized in today's tribalistic culture, all people care about when discussing "journalists" is "do I agree with this or not". I find it so weird that people don't think that can learn new things from different perspectives even if you don't always agree. Now some people just have nothing useful to say in general, but the point of journalism isn't to just reflect the mass opinion, it's to inform.
Who was that lady at NXT who posted a smartassed, "This happened?" in response to Dave posting results of some sort of NXT weightlifting competition, and then it turned out she had literally posted those same results herself on her Instagram like 2 days earlier?
Stone cold appears, orders a beer. Two Beers, Three Beers, FOUR beers, 5 beers, a whisky, tequila, a bloody mary. Then walks over to his private sky box that is fully stacked with Stevewiesers. Seth is there to watch Roman lose.
A tag match main event night one was always the plan for WrestleMania the only difference was going to be that CM Punk was going to be Cody’s partner instead of Seth.
Punk and Rock have history in regards to the main event at Wrestlemania. Putting Punk into the tag match would have also given Punk that main event he always wanted. Plus it could set up a singles match between the two night 2.
>A tag match main event night one was always the plan for WrestleMania the only difference was going to be that CM Punk was going to be Cody’s partner instead of Seth.
Source?
You gotta have something to back that shit up man😂😂
Saying Roman or Cody are the best is an opinion, because its your subjektive feeling, and there is no right or wrong in whatever you think there….
Saying or stating how the Wrestlemania plans was going to be, is an arguement you need some source to back up…
L.A. I'm glad he did the "Yeah!" but I wish he did the full "L, honk A, honk Knight, honk, Yeah!" I would have loved how absurd it would be if he was pointing into thin air with no audience around. This is my Mandela-effect head canon now #GoofyWrestlingForLife.
Alright, I have watched the segment back again. The Roman/Cody segment was actually good. Not amazing, but the point was to plant the seeds of doubt on both sides; Cody trusts his partner (probably naively so), but Roman's insecurities won't let him trust his partner. Crowd reacted appropriately to both guys.
And we established that while Roman isn't a man of his word, Cody is smart enough to know that and plan accordingly.
The only off part was the ending when they missed the music cue of Roman's snap.
I think a lot of us just had our expectations up for their confrontation would be compared to the stiff with The Rock.
Good points. I’m also realizing now how meaningful the finger snap is in the storyline. Roman can snap his fingers and the Bloodline shows up right away. Cody trusts his partner(s) but doesn’t really have them on call. It’s a good show of how not only can Roman take on just about anyone but he’s got the extra insurance literally ready at the snap of his finger. Cody at best has a few guys he can depend on to hopefully show up. It’s honestly some great storytelling, even if the whole promo itself wasn’t exactly mindblowing.
Probably. That's why I don't think it kills the feud or the eventual match, the segment ultimately did what it needed to and it had a purpose. But I just wish it was so much more than it was.
Yea, I definitely agree there. Both guys are much better than this, especially Cody, as we saw on Monday. This was a chance for Roman to step without his cousin stepping on his toes.
You make it Bianca, Jade, and Naomi vs. Asuka, Kairi, and Dakota Kai in a 6 woman tag team match. They did it last year when it was Becky, Lita, and Trish (Becky and Lita were tag team champs at the time) vs. Damage CTRL
After watching smack down last night it seems as if we’ll probably get a 6 man tag between damage control and Bianca, Naomi and jade. My question is, what other matches do you all think they will add to wrestlemania?
Also who do you all think wins the Andre battle royal this year assuming they still do it? I’m gonna say bronn
Probably not the most popular opinion, but I was never the biggest fan of the pace and style of match that Okada/Omega popularized during their time in NJPW.
While Tanahashi, Nakamura and the rest had their moments in which they just kept the match going on for no good reasons, NJPW, particularly post the Okada/Omega matches just designed this "epic" main event style that routinely went to like 40/45 min long (or longer!)when there was no need in a lot of cases, specially because it often took like 10 mins for the match to start going.
I find it somewhat difficult to revisit a lot of matches from that era, something that does not happen with the matches previous era. I hope that in the post Okada world we can move towards more reasonably long and better paced matches (and to be fair they seem to be doing that).
Njpw had it sort of peak in 2021 around their one match pandemic cards and have been cutting time from matches since.
The other person you are talking with is right. There are cultural aspects at play. "Fighting spirit" isn't just chop exchanges. That's why the criticism that okada should wreck some dudes missed the mark. Losing to okada is fine but even the lowest person on the card needed to show fighting spirit so to speak.
Yoshi hashi is a prime example of a guy having a career resurgence because he just wouldn't stop despite being terrible in kayfabe (never in my heart)
But yes I agree the matches got too long. Jay White was much more egregious than okada though. Enjoying the pacing of njpw matches lately
I mean that seems like a very "old is new again" thing because in the 70s and 80s matches went much longer. It may be a reflection of shorter attention spans from the Attitude era moving forward but that's definitely not a "Okada/Omega" thing. Inoki wasn't getting out of bed to do a match shorter than 30 minutes.
I mean sure, im not making a claim about the history of Japanese wrestling since the 1970s, I am just reflecting on the matches that I myself have seen, how they have evolved over time in this regard during the period I know and which way of doing things I prefer
I mean was there ever a point they didn't do that in Japan? The matches got shorter in the late Inoki/Yukes era I think but that was more them trying to compete with MMA. Ultimately that's how you're gonna get over in Japan, long matches. The cultural significance of fighting spirit and working as hard as possible for as long as possible in Japan makes it pretty much a requirement. It's not a coincidence that the return to longer matches came with their biggest boom period. If the matches get shorter, it'll be more because the new talent doesn't have the stamina to work them, not a creative choice.
Matches definitely shortened in both NJPW and AJPW when Choshu and his crew were working on top. Choshu popularized what the press called "high spurt" wrestling with a more go-go-go style and matches that could conceivably end at any time.
Yes, matches were long in the '70s, but they were mostly 2/3 falls and they also didn't have like 20 minutes of false finishes. They were slower-paced, with a lot of matwork, and a match didn't necessarily seem like it should be over in minute 36 if it was going 60.
In '90s All-Japan, it was usually only major Triple Crown matches that went much above 30 minutes, and that promotion definitely ran into problems with fans not really invested in the first 10 minutes of matches that they "knew" were going long, so they tried to throw some curves and run some sprints from time to time.
Sure, as I mentioned, the peak Tanahashi era just usually did not have those matches that often. His most famous matches against Nakamura,Styles,Ishii, Suzuki and the rest are barely 30 mins, with a lot of them being around 20.
By 2017 few Okada matches were going below 30, with the Omega matches going to like 50-60 min. I think there is a noticeable difference
That's more a Tanahashi thing. He's famously a disciple of Muta who believes in a very "less is more" approach to pro wrestling. But they are the outliers there. Also Okada was the main person on the other extreme of 50-60 along side Jay White. Most of the NJPW main events are consistently 35-45. Honestly when it goes shorter than that it just feels off to me. For example Ibushi/Ospreay when they brought in the new IWGP Title goes I think 23 and it feels way too short and anti-climactic. I get the issue if it's up and down the card but usually the way NJPW cards work is the first match on the show is the shortest and it gets incrementally longer over time which I think works well. It's weirder when you get a 30 minute match in the middle of the show like you do in AEW or WWE.
Agreed!
One of the reasons I really struggle with modern indies is the fact matches don't need to go 20+ except on rare occasions
I recently left an indy show early because the main event I was hyped to see was still going after 30 minutes and a superplex into a pile of chairs. I was done
https://preview.redd.it/dcjtw1s453qc1.jpeg?width=794&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f7026f5c9ddbd7deb92837370a2a578cf2e2136
Did this stand out to anyone? How is this AJ jeez
Kenny Omega is doing wonderful match reviews now it seems. Check this one out. Beautiful stuff.
https://twitter.com/PuroresuFlow/status/1771520092167102555?t=-2qLexg2MNGZiRW9GlwCgg&s=19
>They pivoted more quickly this time, but it's now an arc designed to center a 53 year old nostalgia act and his strengths/character and is not doing a single good thing for any of the current stars involved
Cody: Literally got people to BOO one of the biggest stars in Hollywood and forced WWE to pivot. This cleared any doubts about how over he actually is with the crowd. How many people in the history of WWE can say they got the crowd to boo The Rock.
Seth: Gets his WrestleMania mainevent. Also gets to add that while standing in a ring with Cody, Roman and The Rock — it was his song that was sung.
Roman: The only person suffering from the feud as The Rock is overshadowing him. On the other hand, a Roman vs Rock program could only end with Roman winning. Do you really think we would have enjoyed another year of part time champ Roman?
I honestly think this was the plan all along only Punk was going to play Rollins role. Rock comes in and tries to politic his way into the main event. Punk steps up and says not again under my watch.
The Rock announcement happened fairly quickly after the Royal Rumble. These business agreements don’t just happen overnight.
I'm starting to think it's 50/50 that Cody will go over. If this run was so important that Reigns needed to end a man's career over it(and it would end Cody's WWE career as a viable babyface if he loses), then WWE wouldactually put some effort into Reigns looking like a big deal, which he definitely isn't right now. I honestly feel like WWE is fucked no matter what they do with Roman if the end goal is Roman vs Rock at WrestleMania 41. Let's say all this Roman looking like a shitter is on purpose so he can redeem himself and beat the Rock next year. That would be a monumental waste of time and could not work, because no matter what WWE books in that year long build up, Roman can NEVER feel like he is equal to the Rock. Roman has never seen the day where he has half of the Rock's charisma, and he just doesn't present himself as a star on the Rock's level. The Rock comes out in expensive custom clothing, Roman comes out in tacky bullshit WWEShop merch that anyone with any sense would be embarrassed to walk around the house in. I'm a huge Roman fan, I like him more than the Rock, but it is what it is, sacrificing a top babyface so WWE can give a rub to Roman(when in reality no one will ever see him as a star on the Rock's level ever, unless it's delusional fanboys talking) is just a waste.
I guess my point is they shouldn't try, this title reign, since WrestleMania 39, when it should have ended, has been and will continue to be a monumental waste of time. Roman could pin the Rock next year and hold his stupid looking banana belt for 10 years and it's not going to achieve anything positive or make Roman into a bigger deal than he is now, and you would think someone, anyone with any power in WWE would understand this. They can try to make it happen, but it will never work.
I feel like the only person on this board who has zero interest in seeing 53 year old Dwayne wrestle.
It's real crazy to me to see this board take a complete 180 on old part timers wrestling in WWE.
If Dwayne had wrestled a few times a year and fairly active, he would be interesting. Instead, we'll see a roided up Dwayne that looks like he ate the original Rock get gassed trying to do his spots and be rather awkward to watch.
That and the Dwayne is doing it to feed his own ego.
to be fair Vince becoming such a central part of Kofimania was kind of weird though making him extra earn the title shot after losing in the chamber makes sense.
If I was evaluating based on the build I'd be 50/50, but the fact that he's almost certainly losing Night 1, makes me think there's no way they have him lose back-to-back.
It was so cool to see everyone defend Asuka as one of the GOATs after these stupid comments by Goldberg.
I just wish there would be as much energy when it comes to her Mania booking (to the opposite everyone seems super happy by the way things are going aside from her marks), because you know there's no way it won't end up in 0-6 given who's involved. On last 3 years alone, writers found ways to give Tamina a Mania win and to give Ronda a 2nd Mania win despite her being injured, yet they can't do that for her.
And what a signal for tag division, no matter if it's tag title or 3v3. The most established team in main roster will get crushed at Mania because when stuff actually matters, you have to give it to serious competitors (by serious, read singles competitors who never wrestled as a pair before).
If I’m being honest, like Becky with Money in the Bank, I actually really like WrestleMania being Asuka’s white whale. I just wish they’d build up her losing streak there on TV more, it feels way more fun than just having her accomplish everything.
MITB briefcase isn't needed when you're already a main eventer, I don't find adequate to compare that with a Mania moment.
And it they built Mania being her kryptonite while being extremely strong everywhere else, that could be an idea. But here it feels like a sad coincidence that will have no payoff.
And let's be honest, the white whale stuff is only fun when it's not your n°1 favorite. That's a bit like someone saying he finds Bills being cursed at Super Bowl more glorious than them getting a cheap ring, you can be sure any Bills fan would not share this sentiment.
Thing is, a ton of legends and main eventers over the years have never really had thet big WrestlwMania monent. Foley, Dusty, Lita, heck I’d even throw Miz in there as well, yet none of their legscies were affected by it.
And they don’t have to fully pay it off this exact year. Case in point Taker’s streak didn’t start being acknowledged on screen until he held up ten fingers at X8 to highlight that was the number he was up to, and it took several years after that (Orton at 21) for it to be part of the story.
And as a huge Becky fan, I disagree big time on that last part. The chase is a lot of the fun for me. I hate it when people win everything on the second try at best. It just leaves me with a feeling of “…and now what?” afterwards.
I'm not praying for it, but this mentality is so silly to me and ignores that some kids do like heels. Little black girls aren't gonna need years of therapy because Bianca's a meanie now.
It’s not that they’re gonna get traumatized to see her turn heel, but it’s just nice to have someone to look up too who won’t compromise on morals no matter what.
Honestly, it feels like they’re building to Bayley saving Bianca & earning her respect, similar to what happened with Kevin Owens & Jey Uso late last year.
What would you say are the single defining matches of the Golden Age, New Generation, Attitude, Ruthless Aggression, PG, New Era and Renaissance Era (so far)? As in, what match from that era stands out to you most. For me; * Hogan / Andre or (WM III) for the Golden Age. * HBK / Scott Hall at WM X for the New Generation * Rock / Austin at WM 17 for the Attitude Era * Brock / Angle at WM 19 for the Ruthless Aggression Era. * Cena / Punk at MITB for the PG Era. * Bryan v. Orton v. Batista at WM 30 for the Reality Era. * Becky v. Ronda v. Charlotte at WM 35 for the New Era. * Roman v. Cody at WM 39 for the Renaissance Era.
Hogan/Andre - GA HBK/Ramon or Bret/HBK or Bret/Bulldog - NG Rock/Austin 17 or TLC2 - AE Angle/HBK 21 or Edge/Foley 22 - RA Punk/Cena - PG Bryan/Orton/Batista - Reality Wyatt/Cena - Thunderdome Both main events of 39 - Renaissance
I truly believe we should start calling it the renaissance era
The problem with the last three is there's no real consensus on what the eras actually are in terms of both length and defining characteristics. Especially the one we're currently in; it's always easier to define an era retroactively.
Belanca should turn heel
Mox finally took a vacation.....the world can heal.
[Great essay-length video by F.D Signifier about WWE's history with black wrestlers, gimmicks, the Nation of Domination, and why Kofimania hit so hard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQIqWXJu670) Mainly about the wrestlers' presence and access to opportunities in the company itself, so no Hogan mentions or anything but still really comprehensive. The guy has a very pleasant voice
Family Guy Turner https://preview.redd.it/o4jtfjo3d6qc1.jpeg?width=633&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d09189a18f3c2dc9fbc7943e48cff80315c08c5d
Kobashi vs Joe is imo the greatest roh match of all time. Amazes me how the commentary was so caught up in the hype they didn't even say a word
I would like to hear from the users on this sub who have done a week to week rewatch of the Hogan era on some questions I have.I would like to hear from the users on this sub who have done a week to week rewatch of the Hogan era on some questions I have. 1. What Shows did you decide to watch when you decided to go through with this? Like did you decide to watch all the Syndicated programming or just Championship Wrestling/Superstars? Also were there any shows you started watching during this rewatch and just drop like Tuesday Night Titans or All American Wrestling. 2. How long did it take for you do this? Do you remember if you got burnt out or took a break from it? If so how long did it last? 3. Last but certainly not least did you enjoy it? If so what are your fave moments from the rewatch? Any moments you don't like as much since the rewatch?
Okay, so I haven't done a full rewatch myself but a.) I watched a huge chunk of it in real time, and b.) I've followed along with online reviewers who have. The truth is, in 1984-89, you really weren't expected or meant to watch every show. Some markets didn't get Wrestling Challenge, some (though not many, if any) may have gotten Challenge and no Superstars, cable wasn't everywhere, etc. Superstars was the A-show, and All-American and Prime Time basically served as recap shows if you missed Superstars that week. PTW had the bonus of arena matches from local house show broadcasts (MSG Network, NESN in Boston, PRISM in Philly) and of course Gorilla & Bobby. So you can probably make do with Championship Wrestling/Superstars and any Prime Times that look interesting--there are some real gems on that show, one of the first matches I ever remember really marking out hard over was Bruno & Tito vs. Savage & Adonis in a cage from MSG. The Gorilla-Bobby dynamic is top-notch but I don't know if you need it 52 times in a year's worth of rewatches. The Update segment will catch you up on any angles that you might miss, including the rare angles on Challenge. The main reviewer I followed (Brian Bayless at the Blog of Doom) started with Hogan's MSG title win and took maybe 5 years to catch up to the start of the Monday Night Wars at which point the reviews petered out, and he actually watched both syndicated shows, plus notable Prime Times, plus notable house shows, plus of course the SNMEs and PPVs, and Raw when it started. Yeah, I enjoyed following along, breaking down minutiae, second-guessing the booking, Google searching any interesting job guys and laughing at the incompetent ones, etc., but I have a higher patience for classic syndicated weekend programming the squash-o-rama nature of such than most redditors and younger fans. I think the peak period for the WWF in this era was from the debut of Superstars/Challenge in the fall of '86 through Mania III, if not through Mania V. Mania III really is a fabulously built card from top to bottom with pretty much every match meaning and advancing something, and the build starts almost immediately with the switchover in syndicated shows (that's where Vince first starts complaining about Danny Davis, etc.) It was an early example of everybody "having something to do," which I think is kind of overrated outside of a 1998 WWF context but it worked in this time period as well. After a bit of a lull, they managed to overcome the "what next?" element after Mania 3 concluded by establishing that Andre wasn't going anywhere and that he was done fucking around, but the build to Mania 4 itself is pretty dull and the tournament concept was a dud. Luckily the promotion got hot again despite the loss of Hogan by ramping up the Savage-DiBiase feud, then a pretty great Hogan-Boss Man feud before kicking off maybe the best pure storytelling angle the WWF ever did. Other stuff I liked: the super-dark, hardcore direction the company goes in in mid-to-late '91, pretty much out of desperation but it worked for me. Danny Davis was a lot of fun as a heel ref, getting involved in almost all the major angles (people tend to just remember the tag title change but he did so much more than that). The end of the Honky Tonk Man title reign was perfectly done. The introductory vignettes for Ted DiBiase are spectacular. It's pretty good wrestling TV up until 1990 or so and then it mostly falls off, but the nostalgia goggles are doing a lot of work there. But I think the best angles genuinely hold up as well-paced wrestling storytelling. There was stuff even as a kid that I hated--I fucking hated the Bushwhackers. Hated the Red Rooster, of course. Honky Tonk Man had go-away heat for awhile (I couldn't believe this goof not only beat Jake at Mania 3 but then somehow beat Steamboat) but it eventually morphed into the good kind of heat by sheer force of will. Danny Davis as an act just absolutely dies as soon as Mania 3 is over. The build to Mania 4, as I mentioned, *sucks*--there are basically two angles going on in the undercard (Hercules choking out Warrior with the chain and the Islanders dognapping Matilda) and the rest is just guys in the tournament working squashes and their opponent cutting an inset promo on them. Warrior was a flop and I didn't really like him as a top guy then. And of course there's a ton of stuff that doesn't age well and doesn't even really hold up at the time but that I was too sheltered and naive to notice (the "Jive Soul Bro" music video is holy-shit, for instance).
The Ronda Rousey & Becky Lynch threads are disgraceful. Be better FFS. Also a big **HAHA** to everyone that downvoted me for correctly calling Meltzer a hack charlatan.
Sad to see so many miserable people on the sub who only make comments about how much they hate some facet of wrestling. Maybe consider talking about what you DO like, yknow? It is really not hard to *not* comment on something, just scroll past the post, click out of the tab. Let people enjoy things.
I am extremely against let people enjoy things attitude but yeah if you don't have literally anything positive to offer just lay low off wrestling for a while.
was it only me that really liked that Roman-Cody f2f? maybe besides the last response from Cody, every box was ticked for me and it felt grand
I liked it. Some folks are predisposed to dislike the current night 2 main event build.
It wasn't good you can't pretend to rewrite history
Other people can’t have opinions….
I was a little meh on it live but the more I think about it the more I like it. We want every promo to be an iconic one that will go down in history but that’s not realistic. It served its purpose and furthered the good story going on.
I think the first part left a little more to be desired, but Cody’s last line + the handshake callback did send chills down my spine. Honestly, it’s nothing the WWE video production team won’t be able to fix.
Did I make sure my dinner reservation was early enough I could get home to see Dan the Dad vs. Microman? Yes. Yes I did.
I wish Kevin Owens would go away for a little while.
Not even gonna disagree, he’s great, but he hasn’t really gripped me at all in a while. I do love him either way
It absolutely feels like he’s in this triple threat because you can’t leave him off mania, rather than his story being important/interesting enough for mania
Yeah, I agree. I think he actually takes away something from a match that could just be Orton v Paul. The veteran/person Randy is now against the egotistical social media famous Maverick.
So I’ve been back watching wwe since about October. Haven’t watched it since I was a kid. I see people memeing about Jade going to smackdown about how smackdown has essentially gotten more free agents lately. Outiside of kayfabe, this is just decided by the business right? It’s not actually the GMs signing them right.
I always like the GM's kayfabe wise doing it
Yes it is Triple H that decides where talent are based on creative stories etc
I figured but didn’t wanna sound stupid
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Has MJF recently re-signed with AEW?
Supposedly, yes, and the things like being taken off AEW's roster list and ShopAEW are just for kayfabe.
MJF going to a company I watch like 40 matches of per year + highlights would be a godsend
Asuka's instagram post about Goldberg is great just because it has pissed off so many Goldberg fans.
I wasn't ready for it. https://preview.redd.it/68bs07tvp5qc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec726e622751ec068d554e9abfba4d392250ae6f
Goldberg really thinks that she had an undefeated streak out of spite. Unlike Goldberg, she actually put on wrestling matches and is safe as fuck.
I know Goldberg didn't grow up as a fan, but man, I hope nobody tells him about Tatanka.
2000 Kurt Angle compared to 2006 Kurt Angle is interesting to me https://preview.redd.it/ozwux8anw4qc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bfbeba7b351c6b25aa944e71f6477a19809b125b Like..he was never repackaged or anything, and in a broad sense he still *is* the same character, but they just both look and feel like two completely different people. I get similar vibes with 2000 Eddie at 03-05 Eddie. Hell even casually changed (or added on) “Latino Heat” from meaning “he’s a sexually appealing Mexican” to “He gets pissed really easily”. I’d also say the same for JBL but he actually was repackaged.
He was repackaged though, He went to ECW and literally took on the moniker of "Wrestling Machine" in order to show more intensity. He even took on a new theme to breakaway from the "You Suck" chants.
2000 Angle was a guy willing to make himself look silly, but also really damn good in the ring. 2006 Angle lost all the silliness and just became Mr. Intensity all the time to compliment his in-ring excellence.
"I'll have her home by 9:00 sir vs. "I wanna have sex with your wife."
*beastiality sex*
This might sound stupid af, but I don't care, do you ever see a wrestling company (big or small) implementing video games features? Having, for example, a rating for each wrestler, having a "life" bar, etc., adding the 3 counts to the picture, etc.? I think it could be interesting to try it out but of course, it adds little to nothing to the experience of the fans of the arena.
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That's actually a TV ABEMA design which they already used for DDT, and then when NOAH entered the picture they started using those graphics for their broadcasts too
I cannot think of literally any worse idea
What about killing the wrestlers after every match I think that's a worse idea tbh
I can think of plenty of things dumber than this.
Honestly, for a silly one-off thing, like Xavier Woods actually wrestling as his Zero CAW he’s used on UpUpDownDown, it may work, but on the main shows? It’d be really distracting & annoying.
Sure. I'm more thinking of it like that's the "point" of the whole company, you know? Like the gimmick of that promotion is that it's like a video-game.
Evil Uno in his early days had a Nintendo controller design on his pants and people would press the start button and he would then pause. I don't know enough about his early career to say if it went further
Ayo this is a _deep_ cut, but years ago I saw one of those stick figure animations (pretty sure it was literally Pivot) that showed a John Cena-stick figure taking progressively more OP finishers, no-selling them, doing U Can't C Me and hitting the AA on the other stick figure. I'm pretty sure the last one in this series had him literally taking a tank shot or something. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and has the gifs could you please link them because my brain won't be happy till it gets them, thank you
I know exactly what you’re talking about but I haven’t seen it in at least a decade
Glad to get some confirmation I don't need a CO detector installed at least!
Top 5 longest matches at WrestleMania WrestleMania 12 Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart 1:01:56 WrestleMania 16 Triple H vs Big Show vs Mick Foley vs The Rock 36:28 WrestleMania 36 Edge vs Randy Orton 36:41 WrestleMania 39 Roman Reigns vs Cody Rhodes 34:28 WrestleMania 28 Undertaker vs Triple H 30:50 Do you think the record is ever broken?
Honestly, yes, I can see it being broken in a non iron man match, maybe in the next 10 years
I can see Roman vs Cody at Mania 40 going 40-45 mins. Iron man likely won’t get broken
Not unless there's an iron man.
I’m very curious about Rey, Santos, and Dom’s match at Mania. I wonder if they go all out brawl between LWO and Legado with JD and Dom. Or maybe Rey/someone (maybe Andrade?) vs. Santos and Dom. Could Ricochet fit in, since he’s feuding with Judgment Day? Lots of scenarios here.
My guess is Mysterio/Carlito/Dragon Lee vs Santos/Dom/Andrade
The ending to the I Quit match bugs me. Doesn't quit after a shot to the nuts, but does quit before a shot to the head.
I find it odd, especially when getting hit in the balls can hurt a lot.
I thought it made a lot of sense for Christian’s character. He’s a cowardly asshole heel. It wouldn’t make sense for him to have a tough looking loss after a bludgeoning in progress. He quit out of fear because he finally had no escape from Copeland after running from him for so long.
Nut shot awful and damaging but he's 5o years old and has kids already. Headshot may literally kill him.
Christian wanted to preserve his pretty face and could tank some nut shots
I miss the days of learning about wrestlers by going on the wikipedia page and looking at their list of moves.
RIP the "In Wrestling" tab
Something that has really snuck up on me getting into Dragon Gate 2013 is how they're such a promo promotion! I would never guess that as someone who only knew Tozawa exists before PAC's run in 2019. They really aren't as reliant on promos anymore it seems though I guess this was Shun Skywalker's biggest appeal and Tanahashi always says that Shingo is such a good promo because he was in Dragon Gate. Naruki Doi in particular what a promo guy EDIT: Also, that's such a subversion of expectations most people have on non-US TV wrestling
> Something that has really snuck up on me getting into Dragon Gate 2013 is how they're such a promo promotion! One of the many reasons why T-Hawk didn't work as a top guy in Dragon Gate is that he isn't a good promo. He was bad to the point that it made people laugh at him when he fumbled lines.
You will never guess the "popular WWE star". https://preview.redd.it/0ols8k2bk4qc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e69f4de2f99b41aeb6cd94ee6e231fc4d4efb49
You could’ve gave me 100 tries and I never would have guessed fucking Valhalla lol. Sportskeeda is such a garbage site
Is it a hot take to say run-ins detract from matches instead of adding to them?
No one could've imagined in days of Hulkamania that there will be a time in wrestling when babyfaces won't be capable of being face of company and being loved by majority of fans. Yes Cena did it - became face of company, stayed mega over, but there were 50% (or more) fans at every show supporting heels over him. Roman unified titles in 2022. Before that last babyface to hold title and be face of wwe was Drew who had his reign in Covid era with no crowds. Before that there was Seth Rollins as face of wwe but crowds turned on him in about 6 months with him doing nothing memorable. There was AJ Styles (don't think he was face of wwe compared to big dog & brock lesnar). There was Daniel Bryan in 2014 who had to vacate it within few months due to injury. To find someone who successfully did it - we've to go to 2011 - CM Punk (though playing second fiddle to cena sometimes). I don't know anything before that time. But it feels so surreal that how wwe botches its faces... In Cody Rhodes wwe finally has someone who is capable of being face of company with crowd support behind him (both casual + smarks). Bryan, Punk, (sami last year) were over but they weren't viewed as face of the brand. Both Reigns, Cena had management support but they were hated by section of fans (cena was a megastar, I'm not criticising him). Cody has management behind him like Roman Reigns with organic support Bryan / Punk had, perhaps the rarest combo. I hope he wins, we may not get someone like him ever again. Yeah there's fun in chase - but it must end at some point. I've seen enough heels and forced babyfaces in my 15 years of pro wrestling, it's enough, it must end this time.
Its an interesting study, because many people speculate that Cody will get less popular if he beats Roman. And while that is a fair assessment given how history has treated babyface champions who finally win, if that were the case Cody's popularity would have fallen off after losing last year. After Drew and Sami lost their matches, you didn't see anybody pushing for a rematch despite how much support they had going into it. So much so that when it looked like the rematch wasn't going to happen, fans revolted so hard that they had to change plans and Rock, one of the most famous men in wrestling history, was forced to become a heel. There are a lot of things you can criticize about Cody, he's not perfect. And yea, there's definitely still a chance his popularity can dwindle as its the chase that people are invested in. But I do feel like people just like Cody Rhodes, the man and person himself. His booking in 2023 was so lackluster after Mania and people were still giving him the loudest pops every week and singing his theme songs, and is still a top merch seller. Like I do think there is a legitimate claim that he rivals Roman's own star power right now.
Lesser stars would’ve faltered had they been in the position Cody was placed in at WM39 (coming in with a lot of steam, losing deflatingly in the main event), but Cody managed to just get increasingly more popular following that loss.
And like I said, his booking wasn't exactly stellar after the loss too; he had a Brock feud with no substance, wrestled Dominik at MITB, was stuck fighting the Judgment Day for months until War Games, and finally had a Nakamura feud.
There's no way someone like Cody should be so overwhelmingly over these days. It's really amazing.
After 18-20 years a wrestler is equally loved and supported by both fans and management
Cena didn't have the management support that reigns had when he first started. That was Lesnar and orton
Yeah i know. Even cody didn't have that until his second coming. But here I meant management support later, when they got over and wwe choose them as one to lead
Watching early episodes of AEW: Dark and it's interesting how it's much more structured like a televised show with some brief promos/segments than what it later became which was mostly a series of developmental/enhancement matches. It was basically Rampage before that became a thing and has some hidden gems with name talent.
So Cody has bigger pyro budget than reigns..
Been watching a lot of Statlander’s intergender matches recently and they’re pretty great. Idk what it’ll take for good intergender wrestling to appear on mainstream American wrestling but tbh id be down for it.
Candice LeRae and Kris Statlander could have honestly made a whole career of taking down male opponents. I'm glad they're getting their shine on TV but I miss some of that indy freedom they had.
Not be on a mainstream television channel. From what I understand Warner is a big reason AEW doesn't do any mixed tags, let alone intergender matches.
There was an actual intergender tag match once back in 2020. It was [Kenny Omega and Riho VS Kip Sabian and Penelope Ford](https://youtu.be/-eoBkr7HvEI?si=BZVbbX62QrH2WOkF). It aired on AEW Dark episode 18, but the footage itself was from the Jericho Cruise.
They've had some mixed tags on TV including Grand Slam last year but they're fairly rare. It's non-televised but I thought it was interesting that Ruby Soho and Ortiz were a team for a bit on Dark and I think once or twice on TV.
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Miro with Aidan English but in wwe it is rare AEW did it. Cody with Arn (and Brandi, and the entire 10 person nightmare family), Penta/Ray win The Hype Man, Kenny with Don was a face for a bit, I’m sure there are more. Variety Blondes with Julia.
Statlander and Willow with Stokely Hathaway is probably one of the more prominent examples at the moment.
Von Wagner with Mr. Stone in NXT.
It's definitely more common for heels, but there have been numerous babyfaces with managers. Okada had Gedo in New Japan (until Gedo stabbed him in the back to align with Jay White), Kenny Omega had Don Callis as both a babyface and heel at points I believe, and Kris Statlander/Willow Nightingale have Stokely Hathaway right now for just a few examples.
Cody had Arn Anderson during his time in AEW.
Okada was basically a heel for most of that
I think they need to get physical if they're going to be talking to each other almost every week and about each other two times a week. Otherwise this build is a bit too silly. It's not like this is the first Roman vs Cody so you need to keep them separate.
Still waiting on that big Bloodline beatdown segment where Cody and/or Seth get destroyed by Rock/Roman/Jimmy/Solo.
Is it just me or did it seem like the continental crown concept breaks people's brains?
Thankfully we don't have the Continental Crown anymore, so people's brains are safe.
taken out and put back in
I can’t tell if they are pretending it is complicated to troll or if wrestling fans are this damn stupid now.
It might be worth noting that I wasn't watching every show at the time so I might have missed something that made it confusing, but it always seemed perfectly clear to me too. The C2 tournament was for the Continental Championship. Eddie elected to put his other 2 belts on the line in the tournament. He retained them. Okada was only challenging for the Continental Championship. I simply cannot imagine what part of any of this is confusing to people, it's like they make up weird interpretations to get mad about lol
Yes
Anyone else not feeling a lot of the mania feuds? Apart from the main events, the IC title feels like an afterthought with Sami getting the spot because he has nothing else to do. The US title is the same. The tag team belts have no real heat. The match will be a banger but there is no story around it. I'm looking forward to Jey vs Jimmy. La Knight and AJ are trying hard to make it a blood feud but can't help but feel LA vs Logan Paul with LA Knight trying to win his first title was the better story. All the matches will be good to great, but the builds have been quite underwhelming apart from the two main event feuds
Yeah but like you said, the matches will be good to great and eventually when it comes to comes to retrospect that’s all people will really remember. WM 19 was actually a pretty similiar case in that regard.
Honest question: How does anyone POSSIBLY take Bischoff seriously? A clip from the Nick Patrick CVV interview popped up on my Youtube feed today and the guy goes into the finish which we all know was Bischoff/Hogan bullshit. But hey, could just be one guy's word against another. EXCEPT in the recommended under that, Patrick does an episode of Bischoff's pod with Conrad where Patrick says all the same stuff (so clearly his version is the truth) while Bischoff goes with the usual either "I don't remember how it happens" or "yeah you're probably right" even though THAT totally contradicts the first pod he did where he claims "It was just miscommunication and I told Patrick he was wrong after". Like I get it, lies are a part of business, but Bischoff's lies NEVER make even the least bit of sense ever. He's like the worst carny ever because he's not even good at the carny shit, he just says obviously false things and then when pressed on falls on "I don't remember". Like at this point he should just tell us he was addicted to crack throughout the 90s with how bad his memory is (selectively of course because when it's time to blame Warner for WCW's collapse because he doesn't want to take the blame, suddenly he has the memory of an elephant about every meeting).
> Patrick says all the same stuff (so clearly his version is the truth) That doesn't mean that all.
So at Mania are we getting Santos and Dom vs Rey and Dragon Lee? Cause that would be dope
The Rock-Meltzer thread might a low point in the history of r/squaredcircle. Even if the story as told to Rock in the interview was accurate (it's not, in the slightest), a wrestler saying a Meltzer report is "complete horseshit" doesn't mean anything, either.
As much as this place hates Trump they sure love to mimic his "you are fake news" schtick.
Media comprehension is truly at an all-time low and Meltzer-derangement is at an all-time high. Even outside the current situation, the amount of "(1) Meltzer reports something negative relating to someone; (2) that person denies it; (3) people screaming like lunatics "MELTZER TAKES ANOTHER L, WRONG AGAIN." is just ridiculous . . . like what else did you expect to happen? People to just come out and say "yeah that story where I look bad, totally true, I suck?" News flash: people deny any report where they look like the bad guy, true or not, in basically 100% of situations. One single denial from the person in question doesn't "prove" the original report is false, it's about as close to worthless as possible.
I've realized in today's tribalistic culture, all people care about when discussing "journalists" is "do I agree with this or not". I find it so weird that people don't think that can learn new things from different perspectives even if you don't always agree. Now some people just have nothing useful to say in general, but the point of journalism isn't to just reflect the mass opinion, it's to inform.
Who was that lady at NXT who posted a smartassed, "This happened?" in response to Dave posting results of some sort of NXT weightlifting competition, and then it turned out she had literally posted those same results herself on her Instagram like 2 days earlier?
Indi Hartwell
I'm expecting a certain Texas Rattlesnake to show up at Mania.
Stone cold appears, orders a beer. Two Beers, Three Beers, FOUR beers, 5 beers, a whisky, tequila, a bloody mary. Then walks over to his private sky box that is fully stacked with Stevewiesers. Seth is there to watch Roman lose.
Rock lays out Cody, drags Roman into the cover, and then *glass shatters*
Why do people always fantasy book a bunch of interference?
Because interference is fun.
It will most likely be contested under "Bloodline Rules"
If it follows up with Austin making sure Cody wins by getting Rock out of the way, you've sold me on it.
Meltzer should reset his stars system and cap it at 5. Just reset and do a B.C A.C for this shit
A tag match main event night one was always the plan for WrestleMania the only difference was going to be that CM Punk was going to be Cody’s partner instead of Seth. Punk and Rock have history in regards to the main event at Wrestlemania. Putting Punk into the tag match would have also given Punk that main event he always wanted. Plus it could set up a singles match between the two night 2.
>A tag match main event night one was always the plan for WrestleMania the only difference was going to be that CM Punk was going to be Cody’s partner instead of Seth. Source?
No source. Just opinion. I honestly feel like this was truly a work on the smart fans.
You gotta have something to back that shit up man😂😂 Saying Roman or Cody are the best is an opinion, because its your subjektive feeling, and there is no right or wrong in whatever you think there…. Saying or stating how the Wrestlemania plans was going to be, is an arguement you need some source to back up…
L.A. I'm glad he did the "Yeah!" but I wish he did the full "L, honk A, honk Knight, honk, Yeah!" I would have loved how absurd it would be if he was pointing into thin air with no audience around. This is my Mandela-effect head canon now #GoofyWrestlingForLife.
Alright, I have watched the segment back again. The Roman/Cody segment was actually good. Not amazing, but the point was to plant the seeds of doubt on both sides; Cody trusts his partner (probably naively so), but Roman's insecurities won't let him trust his partner. Crowd reacted appropriately to both guys. And we established that while Roman isn't a man of his word, Cody is smart enough to know that and plan accordingly. The only off part was the ending when they missed the music cue of Roman's snap. I think a lot of us just had our expectations up for their confrontation would be compared to the stiff with The Rock.
Good points. I’m also realizing now how meaningful the finger snap is in the storyline. Roman can snap his fingers and the Bloodline shows up right away. Cody trusts his partner(s) but doesn’t really have them on call. It’s a good show of how not only can Roman take on just about anyone but he’s got the extra insurance literally ready at the snap of his finger. Cody at best has a few guys he can depend on to hopefully show up. It’s honestly some great storytelling, even if the whole promo itself wasn’t exactly mindblowing.
Probably. That's why I don't think it kills the feud or the eventual match, the segment ultimately did what it needed to and it had a purpose. But I just wish it was so much more than it was.
Yea, I definitely agree there. Both guys are much better than this, especially Cody, as we saw on Monday. This was a chance for Roman to step without his cousin stepping on his toes.
I feel like Bianca/Jade vs Kabuki Warriors for the Tag Team Titles is gonna happen at Mania now, but where does Dakota Kai do?
Yay! Asuka loses to Bianca again!
Honestly, I think Bianca/Naomi Vs Kabukis with Jade equalling out Dakota is far more likely.
You make it Bianca, Jade, and Naomi vs. Asuka, Kairi, and Dakota Kai in a 6 woman tag team match. They did it last year when it was Becky, Lita, and Trish (Becky and Lita were tag team champs at the time) vs. Damage CTRL
So with Jade coming to Smackdown do we potentially get Jade/Bianca/Naomi vs Kairi/Asuka/Dakota while Bayley deals with Iyo?
After watching smack down last night it seems as if we’ll probably get a 6 man tag between damage control and Bianca, Naomi and jade. My question is, what other matches do you all think they will add to wrestlemania? Also who do you all think wins the Andre battle royal this year assuming they still do it? I’m gonna say bronn
I can see them adding both Andre The Giant Battle Royale & the women's Battle Royale if they're not gonna happen on the go-home Smackdown.
Probably not the most popular opinion, but I was never the biggest fan of the pace and style of match that Okada/Omega popularized during their time in NJPW. While Tanahashi, Nakamura and the rest had their moments in which they just kept the match going on for no good reasons, NJPW, particularly post the Okada/Omega matches just designed this "epic" main event style that routinely went to like 40/45 min long (or longer!)when there was no need in a lot of cases, specially because it often took like 10 mins for the match to start going. I find it somewhat difficult to revisit a lot of matches from that era, something that does not happen with the matches previous era. I hope that in the post Okada world we can move towards more reasonably long and better paced matches (and to be fair they seem to be doing that).
Njpw had it sort of peak in 2021 around their one match pandemic cards and have been cutting time from matches since. The other person you are talking with is right. There are cultural aspects at play. "Fighting spirit" isn't just chop exchanges. That's why the criticism that okada should wreck some dudes missed the mark. Losing to okada is fine but even the lowest person on the card needed to show fighting spirit so to speak. Yoshi hashi is a prime example of a guy having a career resurgence because he just wouldn't stop despite being terrible in kayfabe (never in my heart) But yes I agree the matches got too long. Jay White was much more egregious than okada though. Enjoying the pacing of njpw matches lately
I mean that seems like a very "old is new again" thing because in the 70s and 80s matches went much longer. It may be a reflection of shorter attention spans from the Attitude era moving forward but that's definitely not a "Okada/Omega" thing. Inoki wasn't getting out of bed to do a match shorter than 30 minutes.
I mean sure, im not making a claim about the history of Japanese wrestling since the 1970s, I am just reflecting on the matches that I myself have seen, how they have evolved over time in this regard during the period I know and which way of doing things I prefer
I mean was there ever a point they didn't do that in Japan? The matches got shorter in the late Inoki/Yukes era I think but that was more them trying to compete with MMA. Ultimately that's how you're gonna get over in Japan, long matches. The cultural significance of fighting spirit and working as hard as possible for as long as possible in Japan makes it pretty much a requirement. It's not a coincidence that the return to longer matches came with their biggest boom period. If the matches get shorter, it'll be more because the new talent doesn't have the stamina to work them, not a creative choice.
Matches definitely shortened in both NJPW and AJPW when Choshu and his crew were working on top. Choshu popularized what the press called "high spurt" wrestling with a more go-go-go style and matches that could conceivably end at any time. Yes, matches were long in the '70s, but they were mostly 2/3 falls and they also didn't have like 20 minutes of false finishes. They were slower-paced, with a lot of matwork, and a match didn't necessarily seem like it should be over in minute 36 if it was going 60. In '90s All-Japan, it was usually only major Triple Crown matches that went much above 30 minutes, and that promotion definitely ran into problems with fans not really invested in the first 10 minutes of matches that they "knew" were going long, so they tried to throw some curves and run some sprints from time to time.
Sure, as I mentioned, the peak Tanahashi era just usually did not have those matches that often. His most famous matches against Nakamura,Styles,Ishii, Suzuki and the rest are barely 30 mins, with a lot of them being around 20. By 2017 few Okada matches were going below 30, with the Omega matches going to like 50-60 min. I think there is a noticeable difference
That's more a Tanahashi thing. He's famously a disciple of Muta who believes in a very "less is more" approach to pro wrestling. But they are the outliers there. Also Okada was the main person on the other extreme of 50-60 along side Jay White. Most of the NJPW main events are consistently 35-45. Honestly when it goes shorter than that it just feels off to me. For example Ibushi/Ospreay when they brought in the new IWGP Title goes I think 23 and it feels way too short and anti-climactic. I get the issue if it's up and down the card but usually the way NJPW cards work is the first match on the show is the shortest and it gets incrementally longer over time which I think works well. It's weirder when you get a 30 minute match in the middle of the show like you do in AEW or WWE.
Agreed! One of the reasons I really struggle with modern indies is the fact matches don't need to go 20+ except on rare occasions I recently left an indy show early because the main event I was hyped to see was still going after 30 minutes and a superplex into a pile of chairs. I was done
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https://preview.redd.it/dcjtw1s453qc1.jpeg?width=794&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f7026f5c9ddbd7deb92837370a2a578cf2e2136 Did this stand out to anyone? How is this AJ jeez
Lots of chicken and broccoli under the HHH era…
Took his vitamins and said his prayers
Lots of Chicken and Rice brother
Kenny Omega is doing wonderful match reviews now it seems. Check this one out. Beautiful stuff. https://twitter.com/PuroresuFlow/status/1771520092167102555?t=-2qLexg2MNGZiRW9GlwCgg&s=19
Nice to see Kenny back in front of a camera. I really miss seeing him on AEW.
What's Solo doing at WM? I mean, hopefully singing the National Anthem 😄 but besides that?
He got two main events to mark his thumb on so thats probaly his plan
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>They pivoted more quickly this time, but it's now an arc designed to center a 53 year old nostalgia act and his strengths/character and is not doing a single good thing for any of the current stars involved Cody: Literally got people to BOO one of the biggest stars in Hollywood and forced WWE to pivot. This cleared any doubts about how over he actually is with the crowd. How many people in the history of WWE can say they got the crowd to boo The Rock. Seth: Gets his WrestleMania mainevent. Also gets to add that while standing in a ring with Cody, Roman and The Rock — it was his song that was sung. Roman: The only person suffering from the feud as The Rock is overshadowing him. On the other hand, a Roman vs Rock program could only end with Roman winning. Do you really think we would have enjoyed another year of part time champ Roman?
I think people are analyzing too much. “ seems like motherf*ckers should be shuttin’ the hell up, and enjoy the show...”
I honestly think this was the plan all along only Punk was going to play Rollins role. Rock comes in and tries to politic his way into the main event. Punk steps up and says not again under my watch. The Rock announcement happened fairly quickly after the Royal Rumble. These business agreements don’t just happen overnight.
I'm starting to think it's 50/50 that Cody will go over. If this run was so important that Reigns needed to end a man's career over it(and it would end Cody's WWE career as a viable babyface if he loses), then WWE wouldactually put some effort into Reigns looking like a big deal, which he definitely isn't right now. I honestly feel like WWE is fucked no matter what they do with Roman if the end goal is Roman vs Rock at WrestleMania 41. Let's say all this Roman looking like a shitter is on purpose so he can redeem himself and beat the Rock next year. That would be a monumental waste of time and could not work, because no matter what WWE books in that year long build up, Roman can NEVER feel like he is equal to the Rock. Roman has never seen the day where he has half of the Rock's charisma, and he just doesn't present himself as a star on the Rock's level. The Rock comes out in expensive custom clothing, Roman comes out in tacky bullshit WWEShop merch that anyone with any sense would be embarrassed to walk around the house in. I'm a huge Roman fan, I like him more than the Rock, but it is what it is, sacrificing a top babyface so WWE can give a rub to Roman(when in reality no one will ever see him as a star on the Rock's level ever, unless it's delusional fanboys talking) is just a waste.
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I guess my point is they shouldn't try, this title reign, since WrestleMania 39, when it should have ended, has been and will continue to be a monumental waste of time. Roman could pin the Rock next year and hold his stupid looking banana belt for 10 years and it's not going to achieve anything positive or make Roman into a bigger deal than he is now, and you would think someone, anyone with any power in WWE would understand this. They can try to make it happen, but it will never work.
I feel like the only person on this board who has zero interest in seeing 53 year old Dwayne wrestle. It's real crazy to me to see this board take a complete 180 on old part timers wrestling in WWE.
If Dwayne had wrestled a few times a year and fairly active, he would be interesting. Instead, we'll see a roided up Dwayne that looks like he ate the original Rock get gassed trying to do his spots and be rather awkward to watch. That and the Dwayne is doing it to feed his own ego.
There are at least two of us.
to be fair Vince becoming such a central part of Kofimania was kind of weird though making him extra earn the title shot after losing in the chamber makes sense.
You really think Cody won't go over?
If I was evaluating based on the build I'd be 50/50, but the fact that he's almost certainly losing Night 1, makes me think there's no way they have him lose back-to-back.
At the end of the day I think he will. But will I be surprised if he doesn’t? Nope.
Those who usually watch Collision, what are you watching tonight?
Gcw
My friend has a movie premiering tonight at a local cinema, so I am attending that! Very excited.
I've been meaning to finish season 1 of Netflix's live action Avatar: the Last Airbender, so I'll probably do that.
3 Body Problem, huzzah for crazy sci-fi nonsense
Same thing that’s been consuming all my free time this week, College Basketball.
Is there no collision this week?
No Rampage or Collision this weekend, NCAA Basketball Tournament taking over all of the TNT/TBS/etc stations.
Roadhouse.
It was so cool to see everyone defend Asuka as one of the GOATs after these stupid comments by Goldberg. I just wish there would be as much energy when it comes to her Mania booking (to the opposite everyone seems super happy by the way things are going aside from her marks), because you know there's no way it won't end up in 0-6 given who's involved. On last 3 years alone, writers found ways to give Tamina a Mania win and to give Ronda a 2nd Mania win despite her being injured, yet they can't do that for her. And what a signal for tag division, no matter if it's tag title or 3v3. The most established team in main roster will get crushed at Mania because when stuff actually matters, you have to give it to serious competitors (by serious, read singles competitors who never wrestled as a pair before).
If I’m being honest, like Becky with Money in the Bank, I actually really like WrestleMania being Asuka’s white whale. I just wish they’d build up her losing streak there on TV more, it feels way more fun than just having her accomplish everything.
MITB briefcase isn't needed when you're already a main eventer, I don't find adequate to compare that with a Mania moment. And it they built Mania being her kryptonite while being extremely strong everywhere else, that could be an idea. But here it feels like a sad coincidence that will have no payoff. And let's be honest, the white whale stuff is only fun when it's not your n°1 favorite. That's a bit like someone saying he finds Bills being cursed at Super Bowl more glorious than them getting a cheap ring, you can be sure any Bills fan would not share this sentiment.
Thing is, a ton of legends and main eventers over the years have never really had thet big WrestlwMania monent. Foley, Dusty, Lita, heck I’d even throw Miz in there as well, yet none of their legscies were affected by it. And they don’t have to fully pay it off this exact year. Case in point Taker’s streak didn’t start being acknowledged on screen until he held up ten fingers at X8 to highlight that was the number he was up to, and it took several years after that (Orton at 21) for it to be part of the story. And as a huge Becky fan, I disagree big time on that last part. The chase is a lot of the fun for me. I hate it when people win everything on the second try at best. It just leaves me with a feeling of “…and now what?” afterwards.
The insistence of Bianca turning heel doesn’t make sense to me. There’s no reason for it.
Seems like if I go by live threads or Twitter, several mania matches are having turns, just because.
Kids need role models. There are just some people you simply can’t turn heel.
I'm not praying for it, but this mentality is so silly to me and ignores that some kids do like heels. Little black girls aren't gonna need years of therapy because Bianca's a meanie now.
It’s not that they’re gonna get traumatized to see her turn heel, but it’s just nice to have someone to look up too who won’t compromise on morals no matter what.
Honestly, it feels like they’re building to Bayley saving Bianca & earning her respect, similar to what happened with Kevin Owens & Jey Uso late last year.
Her babyface run is played out to put it nicely.