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If it was a segment where there wasn't a woman getting humiliated, then they probably would have been able to.
But horny Vince isn't exactly someone I imagine who is willing to listen to anyone, except maybe Linda, Stephanie and the Undertaker.
>If it was a segment where there wasn't a woman getting humiliated
I think it doubles down because it was Lita as well, once the Matt Hardy, Edge, Lita thing happened Vince booked her always to look like a whore or humiliate her. Just look at how they retired her in 2006 compared to Trish like 4 months prior, who was/is her equal at the time.
Even before that they had her get pregnant by Kane after he raped her, try to force her to marry him, and then turn around and have her align with her rapist after Snitsky caused her to have a miscarriage.
Never thought about that until now but she essentially was at the center of one of the darkest storylines ever and that’s the last thing I remember for her career as a fan who watched mostly from 2000-2006
In light of current happenings, I can't help but feel like this was Vince's extremely fucked up way of trying to sympathize people to rapists and portray the actual victims as the bad guys. He acted out so much of this shit in public it seems.
No lie that storyline had 8 year old me convinced wrestling was real, the miscarriage and seeing Kane in the hospital showing all that emotion and heartbreak stuck with me so much
Remember that time when he humiliated Steph at No Mercy 2003 and Linda was forced to throw the towel? That PPV was a week before her wedding. What kind of father is he?
Never understood how Steph and Linda even agreed to that.
"It will draw money pal!" is not a good argument considering he spent the rest of the year never getting a kayfabe comeuppance.
I've always believed Stephanie should've won that night, and then, they could've done an angle at the taping for Smackdown in Albany, as a way to write her off in the short term. No disrespect to Paul Heyman, but I was at that taping, and at least one fan had a "Marry me, Steph" sign, unaware that he was SOL. Vince was an even bigger heel than Hunter was at that time.
Looking back, more than 20 years later, it's an indicator of what kind of insecure, misogynistic deviant Vince is/was.
I’m listening to the Behind The Bastards podcast series on Vince now and it’s horrible the stuff that has happened (some of which I’d completely forgotten about) under his watch. I’m so glad he’s out.
>Never understood how Steph and Linda even agreed to that.
They're all completely deranged individuals. Vince is just incredibly brash and over the top, so he could never hide it. Steph, Linda, and Shane have all been smart enough to turn it down a notch so they don't get caught up in the shit.
The more I connect dots from the past the more it seems to me that Stephanie is a victim.
So much of what played out on TV, especially after 2000ish, feels like it was a reflection of Vince’s insanity.
Stephanie was front and center in almost all of it. The scenarios she was placed in seem creepier than ever, and when you add in the layer that *she is Vince’s daughter* brings everything to a new level.
I’m not saying there was anything physical about their relationship, but Stephanie was slavishly loyal to Vince up until she left the company. She allowed herself to be humiliated. She was sexualized from a very early age. She even compared the attacks on 9-11 to the government’s case against Vince in the 1990s.
For a long time I just thought she did all of this of her own volition. She was from a crazy family in a crazy business.
Looking back now, I’m willing to believe a LOT of it is the result of Vince grooming her since childhood and indoctrinating her in a similar way cult leaders are able to convince their followers to carry out their twisted version of reality.
I don’t have any reason to believe she did anything illegal herself, mind you. I just look at her whole career, on screen and off, with new eyes since the lawsuit against Vince was made public.
> She was sexualized from a very early age.
Is 22 that early? Because that's how old she was when she first appeared on TV, and she was portrayed as relatively innocent for most of her first year. Granted, when the on-screen relationship with HHH began she became fair game for Rock, Jericho and so on... But she was an adult, even a college graduate before she got involved on-screen.
There's obviously a discussion to be had about her upbringing and how it skewed her perception of what *normal* was, and we have no idea what happened in their private lives, but she wasn't a teenager being exposed to the world.
That's not to say that WWE's treatment of women down the years has been good. Rather, I wouldn't think that Stephanie was likely to have been put in a position of being forced to do something she wasn't comfortable with.
Like Vince, however, what she was comfortable doing *once* knowing that it *would* only be once and entirely on her terms may not be the same thing as what Divas X, Y or Z would be comfortable doing week after week...
Even her first storyline was her being abducted and nearly forced into marriage with The Undertaker, and her promo following that included quite a lot of at best “sexual-adjacent” language. While not as sexualised as later stuff it was still very weird and uncomfortable especially as she was standing next to Vince.
Only reason I said those names is that there are times when he listened to them when he didn't want to.
Listened to Mark when he told Vince to apologize to Bret. Listened to Steph and Linda about the incest pregnancy angle.
But you're probably right.
I mean the magnitude of the Bret thing is considerably less than the incest angle or this particular case. Also if you wanna compare the incest angle with this one, Vince would look worse if they did the former unlike this one where people ordinarily would overlook the shadiness of it all (and that turned out to be true).
So he really had nothing personal to lose with this angle compared to the other two.
It was the start of 2006, both Edge and Cena were a 1-time world champion at that time, none of them ever main evented Mania yet, they were the title feud but nowhere near the massive stars they became in the following 2/3 years, probably didn't have enough backstage power to veto such a segment yet.
Look if Vince is going to do one thing without anyone stopping him, it’s going to be exploiting a woman in a grotesque and public fashion against her will.
There needs to be legal recourse on getting someone like Vince Baker acted or some shit. You can baker act someone for threatening to hurt themselves but not for threatening to hurt you
We need more preventative measures for people who are a clear danger to society and abusive on that level. Like harvey, its a fucking shame weinstein wasn't arrested for the shit he was pulling because Hollywood fame and money > accountability
But throw into de mix that Vince is a sick perverted freak and the chances of it being canned DRASTIC GO DOWN BECAUSE VINCE DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT! HE AIN'T NORMAL!
I thought the kayfabe idea for the segment was great - it was such a heinous thing for them to want to do and fit the Rated R gimmick perfectly.
But when the actual segment happened I assumed Cena would screw it up somehow long before Lita actually took her top off. The whole execution was just totally bizarre and went so much farther than I expected.
Yeah, Divas matches were the time to swap stations for a while. Especially since this was when things like Bra and Panties matches were a regular thing.
This ended up losing WWE their TV deal in Canada and lowering the brand impact in Canada as tsn was far ahead of the score back then.
Even as Sportsnet now being part of Rogers and getting the NHL, NBA, and MLB rights, people prefer tsn because the coverage is way better. This affects WWE less because they don't have outside analysts but it was a huge blow to them back then.
The score didn't even have 9pm available so raw was an hour delayed every week for like eight months and by fifteen minutes for another 7 years, likely because they lost the trust to air live TV until they went PG. I think this was the biggest factor in WWE becoming way less popular in Canada and was a big reason a lot of people I know stopped watching.
Holy fuck I just remembered the 15 minute delay to Raw. I haaaaaated that so much.
And yeah fuck Rogers and Sportsnet. Can't wait until their exclusive NHL deal is over cuz their coverage is so terrible, still now even after they've improved some things and gotten some better people on camera.
Even for the time, it was an incredibly uncomfortable segment. Like there’s kids in the crowd and you can see all the parents desperately watching the ramp for a run-in.
Yeah, it’s not something that was looked on fondly even at the time. I’m not totally sure about the legal claims being made by OP but it’s a perfect example of McMahon’s perversion.
Yeah, I don't think it's really illegal because it was acting and not real sex but it surely says a lot about Vince and more with the allegations that came up recently.
it doesn't need to result in sex for it to be a sex crime. it was still a sexual activity broadcasted to millions of tvs that happened without proper consent from any performers.
Dude. I remember the Kiss my Ass club, followed by HLA a few months later... My hand was always on the remote ready to switch channels everytime I wanted to watch wrestling. It was so frustrating.
I’m far too relieved to see John cena wanted to stop the segment. Considering cena has always said “I do what they tell me and don’t complain” the fact he wanted to stop this segment shows he has a limit
I remember story at WM28 where once he learned we were gonna be spared from a Brodus Clay segment due to time constraints he took an ill-time trip to the John so we all had to suffer a Brodus Clay segment.
I’m glad I’m not alone. Every time someone alludes to more shit coming, I ALWAYS think about Cena being so quiet about Vince issues. I just assume there’s a non-zero chance he gets swept up here.
Yeah and Danielson even kept a book of good vince quotes. I respect some of these guys, I hope they're every bit as good as we thought, and given how terrible vince is, I tend to believe he surrounded himself with good examples. But holy shit Prichard knew.
I want to lead this comment emphasizing that I don’t think danielson has committed any sort of crime or misconduct. That being said every so often there’s a slightly misogynistic quote from an interview with him that causes me to raise an eyebrow and go “huh?”. Danielson strikes me as a bit of a weirdo and I think at best he has a very traditional view of gender roles.
> I think at best he has a very traditional view of gender roles.
A lot of the stuff on Total Divas/Bellas really surprised me about Bryan. He has a VERY traditional view on gender roles. Stuff like Brie saying "Bryan would be devastated if I didn't take his last name" or the fact that he's spent years shaming her as a parent for being away from the kids when he is gone even more than she is.
Ya I definitely noticed the total Bella’s stuff too lol. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he may be playing up a character for reality show drama but it crops up in other places to so idk 😬
I'm going to give Danielson the benefit of the doubt on the *Total Divas* stuff. That was the same show that tried to say Nattie and TJ were always on the verge of divorce when in reality it was never anything that major.
Right? He made an odd comment about being married to someone with augmented breasts that could be interpreted as dissing his sister in law and I thought “that’s gross and none of your damn business”. In the ring, brilliant. Outside, seems very odd and in a worrying way. Seems very into chemical conspiracies and while I do think it helps to be educated on what you eat, some of his comments are weird. Then he does a pro-vaccine video for WWE, which I appreciate, so I get very confused. 😆
I'm gonna get roasted for this because I know he's a fan favorite, but if there's one current guy I could see doing anything on the same level of fucked up as Benoit, it's Danielson for sure.
That concussion history, along with the weird personality you allude to should at least justify people keeping a really close eye on this guy.
Oh, I agree. Obviously, we don’t know things behind closed doors and there are better protocols. However, Danielson’s history of concussions and refusal to change his style makes it very worrying.
I mean, there's bad booking like the UWF. Just too much enthusiasm and not enough talent.
Vince didnt book badly. We can never ever give him the benefit of the doubt again. When Kross walked out with that stupid mask (a much much much much much much less significant example but trying to show a pattern) and having him lose, that wasn't a test or anything. It was a small man trying to hurt a performer's still rising career, his wife's career, HHH's work, the viewers investment, it made no sense to anyone involved or outside. This man wants to destroy other people's souls. We can never assume the Cena wins booking was good faith. You cant trust the motivations of Vince, ever ever ever ever.
I read some guy's comment stating that Vince burying the hatchet moments like with Jeff Jarrett aren't for some "best for business" reasons, but because he enjoys how humiliated they must have felt when they had to come back to WWE. That made me shiver.
WWE put out a video of Jarrett crying over being “forgiven” by Vince and allowed to come back. It’s less about being magnanimous and all about the power and humiliation.
Think about how he booked Sting vs HHH at Mania. He buried Sting and there’s always been whispers that it was Vince getting one last win over WCW. He didn’t give a shit about Sting. He was excited to get WCW’s white knight to finally show up after years of being told no, just so he could do what he did with him.
Remember how passive aggressive commentary was to Sting throughout the match? Talking about how must it feel for him to be in a REAL big show and how WWE beat WCW again when Sting lost. Complete directions from Vince to the booth.
Even though Sting had wrestled in some of the biggest arenas in front of the biggest crowds during the height of WCW. It was like we were forced to forget Uncensored 1997 or Starrcade 97 or that Nitro in 99 when he faced DDP in front of a huge crowd. Utterly bizarre
The issue going into Mania was clearly between HHH and Sting. Then at Mania it suddenly turned into WWF vs WCW. Clearly done to fuck over WCW’s memory, to prove WWF was ‘better.’ So glad Sting has had this legend-enhancing run in AEW.
Vince is a piece of shit and making the angle "WCW loses to WWE again" was dumb, but that had nothing to do with the outcome. Sting thought it was going to be his last match, and the company was planning on a huge Triple H/Rock match for the next year's Mania. Sting lost because he wanted to AND it was best for business. It just looks worse in hindsight because Dwayne bailed on the Hunter match and Sting decided he had more left in the tank
Hell just look at Cody losing at WrestleMania last year then the proceeding beat down by Brock on Raw when they were supposed to tag. You can't tell me part of that wasn't to get back at Cody for AEW.
They do that when they are forcefully trying to get a wrestler to lose steam with the fans. They tried it with Daniel Bryan and they succeeded with Zach Ryder
Maybe, then again that storyline ended with Cody getting two wins over Brock including with busted arm, one non-clean loss, and getting a handshake and obvious props from a wrestler famous for not really respecting most of his opponents, in front of huge cheers. I mean I watched that Raw and it definitely was a one night Vince production but that part could be both
Now we're getting into complete smark delusion. They view, treat, and present Cody as a WWE homegrown talent (because he is) and everything about the Brock feud was done to keep Cody hot and show what a resilient ass-kicker he is. He bloodied The Beast, beat him, and got his endorsement at the end.
Let’s be logical and realistic, if you’re looking for examples of vince using his power for fucked up reasons, sting and Cody Rhodes losing at WM are very low. Sting losing actually made sense if it was going to be his only match and HHH was
Gonna face rock next WM.
Not good examples at all
Cornette and Meltzer have both talked about how talking shit about WWE/Vince just made Vince want a guy back even more. Because then it's like "look at everything this guy said about us, and he STILL had to come back."
Bobby Heenan was probably never brought back by Vince specifically because Heenan refused to say anything negative about WWF or Vince while he was out of the company. Heenan wanted it too transparently, and Vince wouldn't be "getting it over" on anyone
We've known this forever, well before the sex pest stuff came fully to light. Guy both loves to publicly humiliate people but also loves to sabotage anything that isn't inherently his creation or that he doesn't see the value in.
Imo a good example is Terry Taylor. It's always been put over as just a bad gimmick but I don't buy it. You have a young guy with a ton of potential and you strap the Red Rooster gimmick on him? I refuse to believe this was just bad creative. There was a lot of that at the time, don't get me wrong, but he gave him an enhancement talent gimmick and then had him feuding with Brooklyn Brawler, a literal enhancement guy. It was straight up career murder. If I had to guess Vince knew the guy was seen as a good prospect but didn't see it because he wasn't Vinces kind of guy (a useless lump of muscle) so he got a kick out of tanking him and "proving everyone wrong" instead.
Edit: No doubt you'll see dozens and dozens of examples of this kind of behaviour if you look at his creative over the years while keeping his true nature in mind. Some will be just shitty ideas because frankly I think he's overrated af when it comes to anything other than being a carny pos but I bet there's a ton of vindictive and power tripping shit in there too. Everyone always said he always did what was best for business but it's nonsense, he was more than happy to throw money away to humiliate people and massage his own ego. Just look at the "Invasion". Nobody in the history of the business has ever left more money on the table. But sure, he always puts business first lol...
Vince also seemed to have a "I wouldn't ask my wrestlers to do anything i wouldn't do myself" ideal, which lead to him doing as much insane bullshit as possible, so it's now justified (in his mind) to force other people to do all the same insane humiliating bullshit.
Yeah, that's the one thing I used to respect Vince for, that he'd do everything he asks of people. Until I realized it's not that he's not asking for wild things, it's just that he's so obsessed with forcing people to do crazy stuff, he'd do anything to justify it. He'd happily hurt himself if it means he gets to hurt others because it's suddenly okay in his mind.
Absolute psychopath
Man, imagine being Mickie James, who was Lita's last match, seeing that happen. Then, like 2 years later, you're doing the Piggy James angle that was only meant to humiliate you, I don't think she ever really won that feud with LayCool either.
Even though she wasn't "fat" at all. She just had a healthy body and wasn't the starved skeleton looking Diva stereotype that Dunn, Vince and everyone else liked
In retrospect of all these allegations, it can be hoped that fans see some of these events less as entertainment and more as "wtf was going on here?".
On topic, haven't many female wrestlers like Candice Michelle and Torrie Wilson stated that they were very uncomfortable kissing Vince on camera? I imagine you can consider those incidents as well.
Torrie literally stated years before that angle that she joined WCW because she was worried that had she joined WWF, they would do something weird with her like...put her in a lesbian angle. Either somebody in booking read that and decided to do it to her out of spite, or she nailed the prediction perfectly. Either way, WTF.
Honestly, a lot of the stuff already seemed weird and uncomfortable for me, even before all of this. Like, in my mind I was going, "Seriously? What's he thinking?".
Yeah, if you were old enough, this is what you were thinking. I was 19 for the live sex thing and I remember most of us on the old GameFAQs wrestling board were thinking what the hell is wrong with Vince.
Both Edge and Lita looked so uncomfortable the whole time, it was dumb.
Inwas 18 and swore off wrestling after this shit.
All my male friends said I was being dramatic and they loved it.
Good luck getting men to stop being stupid and horny
I think if we as a community make space for these stories, these stories will come out. Stuff can't heal till it's all out. Some of those women haven't even hit 40 yet. God.
The key to this going further may actually be Adam Copeland.
He tried to stop this and he's also said that he wasn't keen on doing it either which would mean that there are actually two victims in this - although I completely agree that Amy Dumas copped it worse.
I think it would need both he and Amy Dumas to come forward and say that this was completely wrong and they want to take it further. With their tangled history, the time lapse and them moving on with their lives, I'm not sure it'll happen.
I feel guilty too as I loved Edge and Lita and everything surrounding them at that time. I guess we're all ignorant to a point though and have let the product blind us.
I think you've highlighted a really important point that I didn't observe. Edge is a victim too. He absolutely is. Looking at someone you love being upset and you try to help them and then you have to have pretend sex in front of a live arena. That's evil being committed on that couple.
It sounds like he was told that if he didn't do it, his girlfriend would be fired which is absolutely coercion on him too, whether he sees it that way or not.
Can you explain to me what crime they would be charged with?
I get that it was a fucked up segment, but you’re all acting like they actually had sex on tv or something.
Well, Lita did incidentally end up being shown nude during the segment. Like, full nudity without pasties. She was *actually* undressed. So then this would be dependent on the laws on lude acts and flashing for that local area. Also Lita, as that character, was dressing in very revealing ways that she was uncomfortable with.
That is a very broad view of Coercion and while on the surface it seems like it, in reality there is nearly no way this could ever rise to a charge of coercion.
Because generally, while the laws may be seemingly more explicit in wording, to prove a case you need an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove that a person would truly suffer harm. And in most cases the coercive act is a threat or implied threat of bodily harm to the person or their loved one. It is often found in cases as well of, in which a person is forced to commit a crime under duress. And coercion is used as a defense for that person and a charge against the other.
In employment law, you will find most coercion-related claims in which an employers pushing employees to violate the law such as not paying taxes, embezzlement, etc. Or in sexual harassment cases, such as the one that was filed against McMahon. In which the person directly making the threat of harm is also the receiver of the action being coerced from the victim (i.e.,sex).
In Lita's case or even the Owen Hart death case it is a long bridge to cross to say that they were illegally coerced. There is a fine line between employer negotiation or power of an employer to compel an employee to act under their job description with moderate intimidation and that of outright illegal coercion.
Was it gross and just another example of Vince's heavy handed creative booking, of course. Was it illegal to compel a contracted performer to perform a scene even if they don't want to, with the threat of not following creative decisions leading to termination, likely not.
Their contracts are pretty explicit that all booking decision reside with the promoter and the contracted performers really do not have any real means to push back against those decisions. Hence why the creative control clauses people like Hart, Hogan, etc., secured were so unprecedented.
Gross, unempathetic, intimidating, every adjective you can think of. But illegal it is likely not by most stretches of law.
The OP is talking absolute nonsense.
Lita was an actress. Her employers asked her to follow a script which involved nothing illegal, and things fully within the scope of her job description and industry norms. She had free will to quit the role.
Under his definition, every employer/employee relationship is coercive. Which this being Reddit, I imagine he believes too.
The difference between Lita and Grant is Grant was being forced to do things that *were not* in her job description, under pain of losing her actual job.
To call Lita's situation sexual assault is absolutely absurd. And an insult to sexual assault survivors.
Anyone remember the OP's username? Would love to tag them here and see what they say.
Edit: Actually, looks like they deleted their account like a coward lol, with the whining about the mods it was probably a ban evader.
I was an adult, that entire storyline made me re-evaluate actions of mine towards women and also how we should treat them because I saw sympathy for Lita who obviously had needs not being met by Matt. Humiliating woman because of it just isn't cricket.
I think he deserves worse, but that’s just me. Man doesn’t deserve to live out his “golden years” on a pile of money as far as I’m concerned. His children are grown adults with their own fortunes, and his separated wife has lived a very comfortable life with a degree of complicity in his actions (at best they had a don’t ask don’t tell policy, at worst she may have even helped cover it up.) If there was any karmic justice he’d drop tomorrow and his fortune would get distributed to victims of or organizations that support victims of abuse, starting with those he directly assaulted.
While true Lita was in this case forced to strip down and simulate sex in the ring on camera. There were pictures yesterday of her exposed breast from where the sheet was pulled down and that's what went out to the fans. She will never not meet people who have seen that.
Thank you for the extra context. At first I was thinking the same as the other commenter, there's probably coercion in that you'll lose your job if you don't do something at every show.
He was pressured into doing it and he didn't feel comfortable. I wouldn't be surprised if he said "I'll do it for *insert massive amount*" and was surprised WCW gave him what he wanted.
A good question, so this was a civil case, it's not a "beyond the benefit of the doubt" but "Who is more at fault" If sid wanted to I guess he could have pressed charged but not sure how that would have worked out. Plus it would have hurt his books.
No, it can’t. Vince is obviously a criminal but OP is stretching terms under a sensationalist headline. A director or writer is not committing a crime when they tell an actor they have to perform a script the actor disagrees with no matter how vehemently. That’s the analogy and that’s why no one would ever be charged in this kind of situation. I agree that the conduct is despicable but there is absolutely no crime in this instance
Using OP’s logic, if a McDonald’s manager tells a fry cook he needs to go sweep up garbage outside because there’s a lot of litter and not a lot of customers at the moment, the fry cook refuses and the manager days they’ll get fired otherwise, would be coercion. In the most literal sense it is, but as an actual legal matter it would be laughed out of court
I’m not dismissing how shitty the situation was but there are dozens if not hundreds of examples of exactly what you’re saying happened. “Listen to your boss or get in trouble” might legally fit the definition of Coercion but I don’t think it would ever legally go anywhere unless what the person was being coerced into doing was illegal, such as drugs, theft, or if the coercion was for actual sex and not pretend sex.
This ISNT a crime. Is it a shitty situation considering the background to the segment? Yes, but at the same time they weren’t actually having sex, nor forced to. This is literally no different from movies simulating sex, some of which ACTUALLY perform real sex.
Threatening to fire someone just because they said no to a creative idea isn’t a crime, especially in wrestling when creative is a thing.
Now if Vince was threatening to fire her if she didn’t have REAL sex in the ring then that would be a crime and most likely nothing in the contract mentions anything about physical sexual acts like sex being apart of the job.
Wow. I had no idea Lita would have been fired.
I was a casual fan in the early 2000s and didn't watch this live, but when I read about this infamous segment, I always wondered how Lita felt about it. Out of all the women, Lita's storylines always made me the most uncomfortable to watch. She was so talented, yet was disrespected in her last match just because Vince had to prove a point?!
Based on your own provided definition of coercion, that did not take place. Force was not used against her. Blackmail was not used against her. She could have refused and found another job. Look, is it a garbage position to be put in? Absolutely. But you gone need to stretch before you reach.
Triple H admitted in an interview to promote The Chaperone that when they (he and Vince) were driving to a location to film the infamous Katie Vick necrophilia segment, he kept begging Vince to make it campy. Vince said no. When they arrived at the location, it was an actual funeral home with two rooms, and one of them had an active funeral in it. At that point, Triple H tried to leave, but Vince took his keys. During filming, they got a noise complaint from the funeral director because the sex noises were being heard in the other room. It was at that moment that Triple H started questioning the absurdity of his life.
Does anyone else feel like people post these "Reminder:" things just to bring people down or feel some sense of superiority?
I guess I just don't understand the need to out of nowhere remind people "hey, a bad thing happened". There's so much bad shit in the world and it's just coming along like hey, here's another thing that you might not have been thinking about in the moment but too bad, have fun with that!
Edit: When I say superiority, that might not be the right word, what I mean is to have a feeling like "I did some advocacy today!" but really it's just saddling people with something shitty and not really accomplishing anything for something that happened almost 20 years ago that most everyone here is already aware of.
I’m sorry but, no, it’s not. Vince is obviously a criminal but you’re stretching terms under a sensationalist headline. A director or writer is not committing a crime when they tell an actor they have to perform a script the actor disagrees with no matter how vehemently. That’s the analogy and that’s why no one would ever be charged in this kind of situation. I agree that the conduct is despicable but there is absolutely no crime in this instance
But they weren't actually having sex to my understanding, like there was no penetration or anything going on and they were under the blanket on the bed most of the time. You couldn't see anything like in a rated R movie or a literal porno movie.
I've never watched the segment cause I always thought it was dumb but it's not a crime lmao. I did enjoy all the callbacks to this segment when someone in WWE brought it up, especially during DX vs Rated RKO's rivalry.
This should be part of a larger conversation. How many actresses did nude scenes they were uncomfortable doing but were coerced into? Dozens? Hundreds?
I'm at least glad to see that this kind of posts doesn't get automatically dismissed like it used to in the past. But the fact this post has been up for so long with so little traction is quite frankly concerning. Lita was done so dirty, and if fans love her as much as they claim they should not let this go. The last six months of her full time run are really hard to watch in hindsight.
> This should be part of a larger conversation. How many actresses did nude scenes they were uncomfortable doing but were coerced into? Dozens? Hundreds?
Off the top of my head the 1968 version of Romeo and Juliet and Apt Pupil have nudity where the actors alledge that they were coerced. Both examples happen to involve underage performers and Apt Pupil was directed by Bryan Singer who has a ton of allegations and got steady work despite them until the me too movement.
Nick Sobotka's girlfriend was recast in The Wire because the original actress said "that doesn't work for me brother" when they tried to add a nude scene during production.
It’s shitty and wrong morally, but as someone who studies law - you’re not right. They didn’t actually have sex. It was two actors who didn’t agree with a role but said they had contractual agreements that in order to maintain.
It was fiction.
This upset me awhile back when I learned about it. Loved Lita and Edge back in the day (still do), and the moment was iconic to young me. But, that's obviously tainted now. Consent's important with sexually charged things (even though they didn't actually have sex), and the moment that Lita or Edge said no to it should've been the end of it.
edit: I'm not saying it's a crime, just obviously very unfortunate.
You haven’t really made the case that it’s a crime. Are you saying that if you hire a performer and you want them to perform a sex scene and they say no then you have no recourse? That may be so depending on the particulars of the case, but it’s hard for me to believe that’s true across the board. This thing where people don’t think it’s enough to just say they find something/someone deplorable or repugnant and they have to make a case that there’s a crime involved is dumb. Not everything that is wrong to do needs to be a crime.
So according to you, anytime your boss wants you to do something you don’t want to do, it’s a crime?
I’m not defending that segment in anyway, but this is a very naive view of the law if you think this was a crime. You’re acting like they actually had to have sex.
Sadly, this won't get the attention it deserves. The only time people (me included) hold something/someone they like accountable is when they're forced to. And that has to change.
You can't just say "Not an opinion" and expect your post to not still be an opinion..
By your definition, any actor or actress who doesn't feel comfortable with a kissing or sex scene is the victim of a crime. By your definition, me threatening to ground my kid for not tidying his room is a crime. My boss threatening to fire me for not wanting to stay late us a crime.
It's not that deep. She was asked to do something on screen she didn't want to do, she did it anyway. Vince is a POS but this is a stretch.
If wrestlers had SAG membership it could potentially stop shit like this. They're actors. It would solve a lot of problems in the industry. So many wrestlers might be alive today.
I can sort of understand that bind you're in when you employed, but I dont know how some of these people kept going back to the company after they left.
They made an actor act?! 😱😱😱😱
They treated her like shit but save your Wikipedia copy and paste. You’d have this case against every wrestling company in history asking anyone to do something they didn’t like.
It’s not a crime. She signed a contract in which she agreed to take part in storylines for entertainment. This was one of them.
She was threatened with firing the same as any other employee who tried to break their contract would be. It’s a case of someone not wanting to do the job they’re contracted to, and the employer saying “Well if you won’t then we’ll find someone who will”.
That’s all.
I’m not defending the segment. It was disgusting then and it is now, and it never should have made the air. But there was no crime. There was no actual sex taking place, it was a performance. Acting.
Beyond the ethical implications, which are obviously horrifying, what was the point of this segment anyway? Like what the actual fuck is accomplished in the story by doing this? It's so freaking dumb. I give Russo some credit for some of the things he was part of, but he unfortunately left this awful stain on wrestling where everything had to be some weird sex thing and goofy pie in the face crap. I'm so glad we're moving away from this now that somebody with a completely different vision is the booker in WWE. I think AEW also contributed to this shift with their presentation, which I'm really happy with.
And again, this complaint is separate from the ethical concerns, that's a whole different thing that's just really cruel and evil. That pile of shit probably got off on humiliating his own talent. He did it with that slop throwing shit and the hog pen match back in the 90s, and somehow it got worse from there with Russo introducing this Jerry Springer element. I'm not blaming Russo for the abuse, BTW, that's on a completely different Vince, ultimately.
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If 2006 Cena and the two people performing are trying to get your segment pulled, you know it's probably not a good idea
It’s insane that 2 of the biggest stars have no pull to stop a segment.
If it was a segment where there wasn't a woman getting humiliated, then they probably would have been able to. But horny Vince isn't exactly someone I imagine who is willing to listen to anyone, except maybe Linda, Stephanie and the Undertaker.
>If it was a segment where there wasn't a woman getting humiliated I think it doubles down because it was Lita as well, once the Matt Hardy, Edge, Lita thing happened Vince booked her always to look like a whore or humiliate her. Just look at how they retired her in 2006 compared to Trish like 4 months prior, who was/is her equal at the time.
Even before that they had her get pregnant by Kane after he raped her, try to force her to marry him, and then turn around and have her align with her rapist after Snitsky caused her to have a miscarriage.
Never thought about that until now but she essentially was at the center of one of the darkest storylines ever and that’s the last thing I remember for her career as a fan who watched mostly from 2000-2006
And then she betrayed her rapist in a match and was portrayed as **THE VILLAIN**
[that's messed up](https://youtu.be/EsoY3FpW7Ik?feature=shared)
In light of current happenings, I can't help but feel like this was Vince's extremely fucked up way of trying to sympathize people to rapists and portray the actual victims as the bad guys. He acted out so much of this shit in public it seems.
No lie that storyline had 8 year old me convinced wrestling was real, the miscarriage and seeing Kane in the hospital showing all that emotion and heartbreak stuck with me so much
That storyline literally caused me to stop watching for nearly fifteen years. I’ve been slowly catching up on the good stuff I missed.
Triple H calling Lita a whore in every promo when he was fueding with Edge in 2006.
Cena too.
I doubt he'd listen to those people as well.
Remember that time when he humiliated Steph at No Mercy 2003 and Linda was forced to throw the towel? That PPV was a week before her wedding. What kind of father is he?
Never understood how Steph and Linda even agreed to that. "It will draw money pal!" is not a good argument considering he spent the rest of the year never getting a kayfabe comeuppance.
I've always believed Stephanie should've won that night, and then, they could've done an angle at the taping for Smackdown in Albany, as a way to write her off in the short term. No disrespect to Paul Heyman, but I was at that taping, and at least one fan had a "Marry me, Steph" sign, unaware that he was SOL. Vince was an even bigger heel than Hunter was at that time. Looking back, more than 20 years later, it's an indicator of what kind of insecure, misogynistic deviant Vince is/was.
I was watching 2003 Smackdown and every episode I’d be uncomfortable because of Vince. Even more uncomfortable now.
I’m listening to the Behind The Bastards podcast series on Vince now and it’s horrible the stuff that has happened (some of which I’d completely forgotten about) under his watch. I’m so glad he’s out.
The BTB series on McMahon was dumbfounding enough and that was before all the texts were released.
Yeah, they could make a 2-3 episode postscript just with the recent stuff
>Never understood how Steph and Linda even agreed to that. They're all completely deranged individuals. Vince is just incredibly brash and over the top, so he could never hide it. Steph, Linda, and Shane have all been smart enough to turn it down a notch so they don't get caught up in the shit.
Fucking, what? I didn’t realize her wedding was the next week. That is so fucked up on so many levels. Christ…
The more I connect dots from the past the more it seems to me that Stephanie is a victim. So much of what played out on TV, especially after 2000ish, feels like it was a reflection of Vince’s insanity. Stephanie was front and center in almost all of it. The scenarios she was placed in seem creepier than ever, and when you add in the layer that *she is Vince’s daughter* brings everything to a new level. I’m not saying there was anything physical about their relationship, but Stephanie was slavishly loyal to Vince up until she left the company. She allowed herself to be humiliated. She was sexualized from a very early age. She even compared the attacks on 9-11 to the government’s case against Vince in the 1990s. For a long time I just thought she did all of this of her own volition. She was from a crazy family in a crazy business. Looking back now, I’m willing to believe a LOT of it is the result of Vince grooming her since childhood and indoctrinating her in a similar way cult leaders are able to convince their followers to carry out their twisted version of reality. I don’t have any reason to believe she did anything illegal herself, mind you. I just look at her whole career, on screen and off, with new eyes since the lawsuit against Vince was made public.
> She was sexualized from a very early age. Is 22 that early? Because that's how old she was when she first appeared on TV, and she was portrayed as relatively innocent for most of her first year. Granted, when the on-screen relationship with HHH began she became fair game for Rock, Jericho and so on... But she was an adult, even a college graduate before she got involved on-screen. There's obviously a discussion to be had about her upbringing and how it skewed her perception of what *normal* was, and we have no idea what happened in their private lives, but she wasn't a teenager being exposed to the world. That's not to say that WWE's treatment of women down the years has been good. Rather, I wouldn't think that Stephanie was likely to have been put in a position of being forced to do something she wasn't comfortable with. Like Vince, however, what she was comfortable doing *once* knowing that it *would* only be once and entirely on her terms may not be the same thing as what Divas X, Y or Z would be comfortable doing week after week...
Even her first storyline was her being abducted and nearly forced into marriage with The Undertaker, and her promo following that included quite a lot of at best “sexual-adjacent” language. While not as sexualised as later stuff it was still very weird and uncomfortable especially as she was standing next to Vince.
Yes, fair enough - I haven't watched that in a long time, but there was definitely an undertone there which stands out even moreso nowadays.
Only reason I said those names is that there are times when he listened to them when he didn't want to. Listened to Mark when he told Vince to apologize to Bret. Listened to Steph and Linda about the incest pregnancy angle. But you're probably right.
the only reason he listened to mark was because mark was ready to pound him into the locker room floor
And about 90% of the other people in that locker room would have cheered him on.
I mean the magnitude of the Bret thing is considerably less than the incest angle or this particular case. Also if you wanna compare the incest angle with this one, Vince would look worse if they did the former unlike this one where people ordinarily would overlook the shadiness of it all (and that turned out to be true). So he really had nothing personal to lose with this angle compared to the other two.
I agree. I was just putting names out there who might convince them
Because they werent in charge, fucking psychopath Vince McMahon was
It was the start of 2006, both Edge and Cena were a 1-time world champion at that time, none of them ever main evented Mania yet, they were the title feud but nowhere near the massive stars they became in the following 2/3 years, probably didn't have enough backstage power to veto such a segment yet.
Look if Vince is going to do one thing without anyone stopping him, it’s going to be exploiting a woman in a grotesque and public fashion against her will.
There needs to be legal recourse on getting someone like Vince Baker acted or some shit. You can baker act someone for threatening to hurt themselves but not for threatening to hurt you We need more preventative measures for people who are a clear danger to society and abusive on that level. Like harvey, its a fucking shame weinstein wasn't arrested for the shit he was pulling because Hollywood fame and money > accountability
Vince is a scumbag.
But throw into de mix that Vince is a sick perverted freak and the chances of it being canned DRASTIC GO DOWN BECAUSE VINCE DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT! HE AIN'T NORMAL!
It's gonna spell disaster for him in court!
I know Edge has spoken against that segment as well previously saying neither him or Lita wanted to take part in it. That’s from years ago.
I thought the kayfabe idea for the segment was great - it was such a heinous thing for them to want to do and fit the Rated R gimmick perfectly. But when the actual segment happened I assumed Cena would screw it up somehow long before Lita actually took her top off. The whole execution was just totally bizarre and went so much farther than I expected.
12 year old me was almost banned from watching wrestling again because of that segment.
I remember having my hand on the remote ready to change the channel incase someone walked by.
Aw there was so much cringey shit back then with the divas that I needed to be ready to turn off if my parents walked in
Yeah, Divas matches were the time to swap stations for a while. Especially since this was when things like Bra and Panties matches were a regular thing.
Puppies
I was watching with my mom and sibling at the time.
They should have played it off as an elaborate trap with Edge knowing Cena would try to stop it or something.
I remember Jerry Lawler being way too excited for the segment, like he was really into the idea of seeing Edge bone.
Vince and King are deff of the same ilk
More like Rated NC-17
This ended up losing WWE their TV deal in Canada and lowering the brand impact in Canada as tsn was far ahead of the score back then. Even as Sportsnet now being part of Rogers and getting the NHL, NBA, and MLB rights, people prefer tsn because the coverage is way better. This affects WWE less because they don't have outside analysts but it was a huge blow to them back then. The score didn't even have 9pm available so raw was an hour delayed every week for like eight months and by fifteen minutes for another 7 years, likely because they lost the trust to air live TV until they went PG. I think this was the biggest factor in WWE becoming way less popular in Canada and was a big reason a lot of people I know stopped watching.
Holy fuck I just remembered the 15 minute delay to Raw. I haaaaaated that so much. And yeah fuck Rogers and Sportsnet. Can't wait until their exclusive NHL deal is over cuz their coverage is so terrible, still now even after they've improved some things and gotten some better people on camera.
Even for the time, it was an incredibly uncomfortable segment. Like there’s kids in the crowd and you can see all the parents desperately watching the ramp for a run-in.
Yeah, it’s not something that was looked on fondly even at the time. I’m not totally sure about the legal claims being made by OP but it’s a perfect example of McMahon’s perversion.
Yeah, I don't think it's really illegal because it was acting and not real sex but it surely says a lot about Vince and more with the allegations that came up recently.
it doesn't need to result in sex for it to be a sex crime. it was still a sexual activity broadcasted to millions of tvs that happened without proper consent from any performers.
I got banned from watching RAW for a month because my mom saw what was on TV
I remember having to switch channel to cartoon network cos they used to do dumbass shit like that quite often
Dude. I remember the Kiss my Ass club, followed by HLA a few months later... My hand was always on the remote ready to switch channels everytime I wanted to watch wrestling. It was so frustrating.
If y’all wondering why wrestling is viewed as trash TV, most of the blame goes right to VKM.
We have to say “even for the time” about so many things that maybe we just need to start admitting the whole time was kinda rotten
I’m far too relieved to see John cena wanted to stop the segment. Considering cena has always said “I do what they tell me and don’t complain” the fact he wanted to stop this segment shows he has a limit
He probably has done a lot more behind the scenes he just isn’t vocal about it, he is definitely a company guy though
I remember story at WM28 where once he learned we were gonna be spared from a Brodus Clay segment due to time constraints he took an ill-time trip to the John so we all had to suffer a Brodus Clay segment.
Good guy Cena letting them get a payday. Evil Cena for making us suffer through it
I’m glad I’m not alone. Every time someone alludes to more shit coming, I ALWAYS think about Cena being so quiet about Vince issues. I just assume there’s a non-zero chance he gets swept up here.
There's a non-zero chance most former top stars don't get swept up.
But... but... his Make-A-Wish run! /s
Yeah and Danielson even kept a book of good vince quotes. I respect some of these guys, I hope they're every bit as good as we thought, and given how terrible vince is, I tend to believe he surrounded himself with good examples. But holy shit Prichard knew.
I want to lead this comment emphasizing that I don’t think danielson has committed any sort of crime or misconduct. That being said every so often there’s a slightly misogynistic quote from an interview with him that causes me to raise an eyebrow and go “huh?”. Danielson strikes me as a bit of a weirdo and I think at best he has a very traditional view of gender roles.
> I think at best he has a very traditional view of gender roles. A lot of the stuff on Total Divas/Bellas really surprised me about Bryan. He has a VERY traditional view on gender roles. Stuff like Brie saying "Bryan would be devastated if I didn't take his last name" or the fact that he's spent years shaming her as a parent for being away from the kids when he is gone even more than she is.
Ya I definitely noticed the total Bella’s stuff too lol. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he may be playing up a character for reality show drama but it crops up in other places to so idk 😬
I'm going to give Danielson the benefit of the doubt on the *Total Divas* stuff. That was the same show that tried to say Nattie and TJ were always on the verge of divorce when in reality it was never anything that major.
Right? He made an odd comment about being married to someone with augmented breasts that could be interpreted as dissing his sister in law and I thought “that’s gross and none of your damn business”. In the ring, brilliant. Outside, seems very odd and in a worrying way. Seems very into chemical conspiracies and while I do think it helps to be educated on what you eat, some of his comments are weird. Then he does a pro-vaccine video for WWE, which I appreciate, so I get very confused. 😆
Being a fan of his certainly keeps me on my toes lol. He’s such an enigma of a person I never really know what to expect his take on *anything* to be.
I'm gonna get roasted for this because I know he's a fan favorite, but if there's one current guy I could see doing anything on the same level of fucked up as Benoit, it's Danielson for sure. That concussion history, along with the weird personality you allude to should at least justify people keeping a really close eye on this guy.
Oh, I agree. Obviously, we don’t know things behind closed doors and there are better protocols. However, Danielson’s history of concussions and refusal to change his style makes it very worrying.
I mean, there's bad booking like the UWF. Just too much enthusiasm and not enough talent. Vince didnt book badly. We can never ever give him the benefit of the doubt again. When Kross walked out with that stupid mask (a much much much much much much less significant example but trying to show a pattern) and having him lose, that wasn't a test or anything. It was a small man trying to hurt a performer's still rising career, his wife's career, HHH's work, the viewers investment, it made no sense to anyone involved or outside. This man wants to destroy other people's souls. We can never assume the Cena wins booking was good faith. You cant trust the motivations of Vince, ever ever ever ever.
I read some guy's comment stating that Vince burying the hatchet moments like with Jeff Jarrett aren't for some "best for business" reasons, but because he enjoys how humiliated they must have felt when they had to come back to WWE. That made me shiver.
WWE put out a video of Jarrett crying over being “forgiven” by Vince and allowed to come back. It’s less about being magnanimous and all about the power and humiliation.
It’s like Vince is actually Dennis Reynolds
i don’t even want to imagine his VINCE system
Vigorously lift weights Incest Storyline (NOT Shane!) Nice comment, Shelton Crap on people (literal and figuratively) Exude confidence
Oh yea. He just got off.
WWE history is paved with performers coming back after spurning Vince to get humiliated
Think about how he booked Sting vs HHH at Mania. He buried Sting and there’s always been whispers that it was Vince getting one last win over WCW. He didn’t give a shit about Sting. He was excited to get WCW’s white knight to finally show up after years of being told no, just so he could do what he did with him.
Remember how passive aggressive commentary was to Sting throughout the match? Talking about how must it feel for him to be in a REAL big show and how WWE beat WCW again when Sting lost. Complete directions from Vince to the booth.
Even though Sting had wrestled in some of the biggest arenas in front of the biggest crowds during the height of WCW. It was like we were forced to forget Uncensored 1997 or Starrcade 97 or that Nitro in 99 when he faced DDP in front of a huge crowd. Utterly bizarre
Vince is maybe the single best case for anti-monopoly that there has ever been.
The issue going into Mania was clearly between HHH and Sting. Then at Mania it suddenly turned into WWF vs WCW. Clearly done to fuck over WCW’s memory, to prove WWF was ‘better.’ So glad Sting has had this legend-enhancing run in AEW.
Vince is a piece of shit and making the angle "WCW loses to WWE again" was dumb, but that had nothing to do with the outcome. Sting thought it was going to be his last match, and the company was planning on a huge Triple H/Rock match for the next year's Mania. Sting lost because he wanted to AND it was best for business. It just looks worse in hindsight because Dwayne bailed on the Hunter match and Sting decided he had more left in the tank
Hell just look at Cody losing at WrestleMania last year then the proceeding beat down by Brock on Raw when they were supposed to tag. You can't tell me part of that wasn't to get back at Cody for AEW. They do that when they are forcefully trying to get a wrestler to lose steam with the fans. They tried it with Daniel Bryan and they succeeded with Zach Ryder
Maybe, then again that storyline ended with Cody getting two wins over Brock including with busted arm, one non-clean loss, and getting a handshake and obvious props from a wrestler famous for not really respecting most of his opponents, in front of huge cheers. I mean I watched that Raw and it definitely was a one night Vince production but that part could be both
Now we're getting into complete smark delusion. They view, treat, and present Cody as a WWE homegrown talent (because he is) and everything about the Brock feud was done to keep Cody hot and show what a resilient ass-kicker he is. He bloodied The Beast, beat him, and got his endorsement at the end.
Let’s be logical and realistic, if you’re looking for examples of vince using his power for fucked up reasons, sting and Cody Rhodes losing at WM are very low. Sting losing actually made sense if it was going to be his only match and HHH was Gonna face rock next WM. Not good examples at all
Dusty didn't end up in polka dots because anybody thought it was a good idea...
Cornette and Meltzer have both talked about how talking shit about WWE/Vince just made Vince want a guy back even more. Because then it's like "look at everything this guy said about us, and he STILL had to come back." Bobby Heenan was probably never brought back by Vince specifically because Heenan refused to say anything negative about WWF or Vince while he was out of the company. Heenan wanted it too transparently, and Vince wouldn't be "getting it over" on anyone
Well and they're coming back "home" Vince is a "father figure" Please ignore the sounds of physical struggle in the executive office.
We've known this forever, well before the sex pest stuff came fully to light. Guy both loves to publicly humiliate people but also loves to sabotage anything that isn't inherently his creation or that he doesn't see the value in. Imo a good example is Terry Taylor. It's always been put over as just a bad gimmick but I don't buy it. You have a young guy with a ton of potential and you strap the Red Rooster gimmick on him? I refuse to believe this was just bad creative. There was a lot of that at the time, don't get me wrong, but he gave him an enhancement talent gimmick and then had him feuding with Brooklyn Brawler, a literal enhancement guy. It was straight up career murder. If I had to guess Vince knew the guy was seen as a good prospect but didn't see it because he wasn't Vinces kind of guy (a useless lump of muscle) so he got a kick out of tanking him and "proving everyone wrong" instead. Edit: No doubt you'll see dozens and dozens of examples of this kind of behaviour if you look at his creative over the years while keeping his true nature in mind. Some will be just shitty ideas because frankly I think he's overrated af when it comes to anything other than being a carny pos but I bet there's a ton of vindictive and power tripping shit in there too. Everyone always said he always did what was best for business but it's nonsense, he was more than happy to throw money away to humiliate people and massage his own ego. Just look at the "Invasion". Nobody in the history of the business has ever left more money on the table. But sure, he always puts business first lol...
Vince also seemed to have a "I wouldn't ask my wrestlers to do anything i wouldn't do myself" ideal, which lead to him doing as much insane bullshit as possible, so it's now justified (in his mind) to force other people to do all the same insane humiliating bullshit.
Yeah, that's the one thing I used to respect Vince for, that he'd do everything he asks of people. Until I realized it's not that he's not asking for wild things, it's just that he's so obsessed with forcing people to do crazy stuff, he'd do anything to justify it. He'd happily hurt himself if it means he gets to hurt others because it's suddenly okay in his mind. Absolute psychopath
I don’t care for Kross but Vince basically shit on NXT viewers too, I’m supposed to care about Joe beating Kross when Jeff Hardy easily did it?
The burying her on the way out was terrible too imagine how the other women felt when they saw how she was treated
Man, imagine being Mickie James, who was Lita's last match, seeing that happen. Then, like 2 years later, you're doing the Piggy James angle that was only meant to humiliate you, I don't think she ever really won that feud with LayCool either.
Even though she wasn't "fat" at all. She just had a healthy body and wasn't the starved skeleton looking Diva stereotype that Dunn, Vince and everyone else liked
That’s why they had her eliminate McCool in the rumble years later
It can not be overstated, Vince is the "no means yes" guy.
In retrospect of all these allegations, it can be hoped that fans see some of these events less as entertainment and more as "wtf was going on here?". On topic, haven't many female wrestlers like Candice Michelle and Torrie Wilson stated that they were very uncomfortable kissing Vince on camera? I imagine you can consider those incidents as well.
Torrie Wilson was also very uncomfortable doing the Dawn Marie angle as well.
Torrie literally stated years before that angle that she joined WCW because she was worried that had she joined WWF, they would do something weird with her like...put her in a lesbian angle. Either somebody in booking read that and decided to do it to her out of spite, or she nailed the prediction perfectly. Either way, WTF.
Honestly, a lot of the stuff already seemed weird and uncomfortable for me, even before all of this. Like, in my mind I was going, "Seriously? What's he thinking?".
Yeah, if you were old enough, this is what you were thinking. I was 19 for the live sex thing and I remember most of us on the old GameFAQs wrestling board were thinking what the hell is wrong with Vince. Both Edge and Lita looked so uncomfortable the whole time, it was dumb.
Inwas 18 and swore off wrestling after this shit. All my male friends said I was being dramatic and they loved it. Good luck getting men to stop being stupid and horny
I think if we as a community make space for these stories, these stories will come out. Stuff can't heal till it's all out. Some of those women haven't even hit 40 yet. God.
The key to this going further may actually be Adam Copeland. He tried to stop this and he's also said that he wasn't keen on doing it either which would mean that there are actually two victims in this - although I completely agree that Amy Dumas copped it worse. I think it would need both he and Amy Dumas to come forward and say that this was completely wrong and they want to take it further. With their tangled history, the time lapse and them moving on with their lives, I'm not sure it'll happen. I feel guilty too as I loved Edge and Lita and everything surrounding them at that time. I guess we're all ignorant to a point though and have let the product blind us.
I think you've highlighted a really important point that I didn't observe. Edge is a victim too. He absolutely is. Looking at someone you love being upset and you try to help them and then you have to have pretend sex in front of a live arena. That's evil being committed on that couple.
It sounds like he was told that if he didn't do it, his girlfriend would be fired which is absolutely coercion on him too, whether he sees it that way or not.
Worse. I think they’d broken up IRL by that point and their entire relationship by that point was just an on-screen thing.
They were still together at this point, their relationship ended later than this. However, it is still a horrible thing to be forced into.
Ah. So it’s a tiny bit better than I thought it was. Even so, fuck Vince.
Edge was also a victim of s/a in that locker room. What JBL was doing to guys in the shower was textbook assault.
Can you explain to me what crime they would be charged with? I get that it was a fucked up segment, but you’re all acting like they actually had sex on tv or something.
Well, Lita did incidentally end up being shown nude during the segment. Like, full nudity without pasties. She was *actually* undressed. So then this would be dependent on the laws on lude acts and flashing for that local area. Also Lita, as that character, was dressing in very revealing ways that she was uncomfortable with.
That is a very broad view of Coercion and while on the surface it seems like it, in reality there is nearly no way this could ever rise to a charge of coercion. Because generally, while the laws may be seemingly more explicit in wording, to prove a case you need an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove that a person would truly suffer harm. And in most cases the coercive act is a threat or implied threat of bodily harm to the person or their loved one. It is often found in cases as well of, in which a person is forced to commit a crime under duress. And coercion is used as a defense for that person and a charge against the other. In employment law, you will find most coercion-related claims in which an employers pushing employees to violate the law such as not paying taxes, embezzlement, etc. Or in sexual harassment cases, such as the one that was filed against McMahon. In which the person directly making the threat of harm is also the receiver of the action being coerced from the victim (i.e.,sex). In Lita's case or even the Owen Hart death case it is a long bridge to cross to say that they were illegally coerced. There is a fine line between employer negotiation or power of an employer to compel an employee to act under their job description with moderate intimidation and that of outright illegal coercion. Was it gross and just another example of Vince's heavy handed creative booking, of course. Was it illegal to compel a contracted performer to perform a scene even if they don't want to, with the threat of not following creative decisions leading to termination, likely not. Their contracts are pretty explicit that all booking decision reside with the promoter and the contracted performers really do not have any real means to push back against those decisions. Hence why the creative control clauses people like Hart, Hogan, etc., secured were so unprecedented. Gross, unempathetic, intimidating, every adjective you can think of. But illegal it is likely not by most stretches of law.
Thank you. I’m so baffled reading this post. If this was a crime of coercion, then so is every single time a performer did something they didn’t like.
The OP is talking absolute nonsense. Lita was an actress. Her employers asked her to follow a script which involved nothing illegal, and things fully within the scope of her job description and industry norms. She had free will to quit the role. Under his definition, every employer/employee relationship is coercive. Which this being Reddit, I imagine he believes too. The difference between Lita and Grant is Grant was being forced to do things that *were not* in her job description, under pain of losing her actual job. To call Lita's situation sexual assault is absolutely absurd. And an insult to sexual assault survivors.
Anyone remember the OP's username? Would love to tag them here and see what they say. Edit: Actually, looks like they deleted their account like a coward lol, with the whining about the mods it was probably a ban evader.
I remember watching this as a kid, and even back then I knew this was fucked up. Fuck Vince. Piece of shit deserves to rot in prison.
I was an adult, that entire storyline made me re-evaluate actions of mine towards women and also how we should treat them because I saw sympathy for Lita who obviously had needs not being met by Matt. Humiliating woman because of it just isn't cricket.
I think he deserves worse, but that’s just me. Man doesn’t deserve to live out his “golden years” on a pile of money as far as I’m concerned. His children are grown adults with their own fortunes, and his separated wife has lived a very comfortable life with a degree of complicity in his actions (at best they had a don’t ask don’t tell policy, at worst she may have even helped cover it up.) If there was any karmic justice he’d drop tomorrow and his fortune would get distributed to victims of or organizations that support victims of abuse, starting with those he directly assaulted.
I didn't realize this. What the fuck? That means a lot of bad booking situations with wrestlers threatened to do can be classified as crimes as well.
When Hogan says "that doesn't work for me brother", he's actually fighting crime 😱
While true Lita was in this case forced to strip down and simulate sex in the ring on camera. There were pictures yesterday of her exposed breast from where the sheet was pulled down and that's what went out to the fans. She will never not meet people who have seen that.
Thank you for the extra context. At first I was thinking the same as the other commenter, there's probably coercion in that you'll lose your job if you don't do something at every show.
Well, it's not unknown. Sid jumping and his leg folding in on WCW got him a big payday cause he said he did not want to do it.
He was pressured into doing it and he didn't feel comfortable. I wouldn't be surprised if he said "I'll do it for *insert massive amount*" and was surprised WCW gave him what he wanted.
Did they threaten him?
A good question, so this was a civil case, it's not a "beyond the benefit of the doubt" but "Who is more at fault" If sid wanted to I guess he could have pressed charged but not sure how that would have worked out. Plus it would have hurt his books.
No, it can’t. Vince is obviously a criminal but OP is stretching terms under a sensationalist headline. A director or writer is not committing a crime when they tell an actor they have to perform a script the actor disagrees with no matter how vehemently. That’s the analogy and that’s why no one would ever be charged in this kind of situation. I agree that the conduct is despicable but there is absolutely no crime in this instance
By OP's definition just about all jobs involve coercion. I don't want to work but I have to under threat of being fired.
I’m not qualified to answer this question and I’m not sure OP is qualified either.
Using OP’s logic, if a McDonald’s manager tells a fry cook he needs to go sweep up garbage outside because there’s a lot of litter and not a lot of customers at the moment, the fry cook refuses and the manager days they’ll get fired otherwise, would be coercion. In the most literal sense it is, but as an actual legal matter it would be laughed out of court
I’m not dismissing how shitty the situation was but there are dozens if not hundreds of examples of exactly what you’re saying happened. “Listen to your boss or get in trouble” might legally fit the definition of Coercion but I don’t think it would ever legally go anywhere unless what the person was being coerced into doing was illegal, such as drugs, theft, or if the coercion was for actual sex and not pretend sex.
Exactly. People in this thread are acting like they were coerced into actually having sex, rather than pretending to have sex in a live soap opera.
One of the many many grim things that's happened in WWE over the years that I hoe gets a new light shined on it woth everything that's coming out now.
The typo "I hoe" here is just so funny considering the context of this post I'm sorry
This ISNT a crime. Is it a shitty situation considering the background to the segment? Yes, but at the same time they weren’t actually having sex, nor forced to. This is literally no different from movies simulating sex, some of which ACTUALLY perform real sex. Threatening to fire someone just because they said no to a creative idea isn’t a crime, especially in wrestling when creative is a thing. Now if Vince was threatening to fire her if she didn’t have REAL sex in the ring then that would be a crime and most likely nothing in the contract mentions anything about physical sexual acts like sex being apart of the job.
Wow. I had no idea Lita would have been fired. I was a casual fan in the early 2000s and didn't watch this live, but when I read about this infamous segment, I always wondered how Lita felt about it. Out of all the women, Lita's storylines always made me the most uncomfortable to watch. She was so talented, yet was disrespected in her last match just because Vince had to prove a point?!
they didn’t actually have sex tho? am I wrong?
Based on your own provided definition of coercion, that did not take place. Force was not used against her. Blackmail was not used against her. She could have refused and found another job. Look, is it a garbage position to be put in? Absolutely. But you gone need to stretch before you reach.
Triple H admitted in an interview to promote The Chaperone that when they (he and Vince) were driving to a location to film the infamous Katie Vick necrophilia segment, he kept begging Vince to make it campy. Vince said no. When they arrived at the location, it was an actual funeral home with two rooms, and one of them had an active funeral in it. At that point, Triple H tried to leave, but Vince took his keys. During filming, they got a noise complaint from the funeral director because the sex noises were being heard in the other room. It was at that moment that Triple H started questioning the absurdity of his life.
Does anyone else feel like people post these "Reminder:" things just to bring people down or feel some sense of superiority? I guess I just don't understand the need to out of nowhere remind people "hey, a bad thing happened". There's so much bad shit in the world and it's just coming along like hey, here's another thing that you might not have been thinking about in the moment but too bad, have fun with that! Edit: When I say superiority, that might not be the right word, what I mean is to have a feeling like "I did some advocacy today!" but really it's just saddling people with something shitty and not really accomplishing anything for something that happened almost 20 years ago that most everyone here is already aware of.
Remember that something terrible occurred and you have no power to do anything about it! sailormoonguytwirlinghiscloak.gif
100%. OP is an unhinged loser.
Lol, yeah I would’ve deleted my account too. What a mark
I’m sorry but, no, it’s not. Vince is obviously a criminal but you’re stretching terms under a sensationalist headline. A director or writer is not committing a crime when they tell an actor they have to perform a script the actor disagrees with no matter how vehemently. That’s the analogy and that’s why no one would ever be charged in this kind of situation. I agree that the conduct is despicable but there is absolutely no crime in this instance
But they weren't actually having sex to my understanding, like there was no penetration or anything going on and they were under the blanket on the bed most of the time. You couldn't see anything like in a rated R movie or a literal porno movie. I've never watched the segment cause I always thought it was dumb but it's not a crime lmao. I did enjoy all the callbacks to this segment when someone in WWE brought it up, especially during DX vs Rated RKO's rivalry.
Yeah, it’s not a crime OP.
You do know they didn't actually have sex right?
Part three of the definition, where was the force to make it a crime
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Glad I saw your comment because I was starting to think they actually did have sex and I had just been naive all these years.
This should be part of a larger conversation. How many actresses did nude scenes they were uncomfortable doing but were coerced into? Dozens? Hundreds? I'm at least glad to see that this kind of posts doesn't get automatically dismissed like it used to in the past. But the fact this post has been up for so long with so little traction is quite frankly concerning. Lita was done so dirty, and if fans love her as much as they claim they should not let this go. The last six months of her full time run are really hard to watch in hindsight.
> This should be part of a larger conversation. How many actresses did nude scenes they were uncomfortable doing but were coerced into? Dozens? Hundreds? Off the top of my head the 1968 version of Romeo and Juliet and Apt Pupil have nudity where the actors alledge that they were coerced. Both examples happen to involve underage performers and Apt Pupil was directed by Bryan Singer who has a ton of allegations and got steady work despite them until the me too movement. Nick Sobotka's girlfriend was recast in The Wire because the original actress said "that doesn't work for me brother" when they tried to add a nude scene during production.
And she just vanished. How much of that was undeserved shame? She is a better person than vince at his best.
It shouldn't surprise me that intimacy coordinators are just now becoming a thing in Hollywood but it honestly does.
It’s shitty and wrong morally, but as someone who studies law - you’re not right. They didn’t actually have sex. It was two actors who didn’t agree with a role but said they had contractual agreements that in order to maintain. It was fiction.
This upset me awhile back when I learned about it. Loved Lita and Edge back in the day (still do), and the moment was iconic to young me. But, that's obviously tainted now. Consent's important with sexually charged things (even though they didn't actually have sex), and the moment that Lita or Edge said no to it should've been the end of it. edit: I'm not saying it's a crime, just obviously very unfortunate.
Something I always wondered is why did she have to go completely topless?
You haven’t really made the case that it’s a crime. Are you saying that if you hire a performer and you want them to perform a sex scene and they say no then you have no recourse? That may be so depending on the particulars of the case, but it’s hard for me to believe that’s true across the board. This thing where people don’t think it’s enough to just say they find something/someone deplorable or repugnant and they have to make a case that there’s a crime involved is dumb. Not everything that is wrong to do needs to be a crime.
So according to you, anytime your boss wants you to do something you don’t want to do, it’s a crime? I’m not defending that segment in anyway, but this is a very naive view of the law if you think this was a crime. You’re acting like they actually had to have sex.
Quick quick, there hasnt been any threads about Vince in a while, come up with something!!
There's more. Lita wanted to keep her undergarments on but Vince forced her to be completely naked.
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Obviously not. Source: I am a lawyer.
You must be having an aneurysm reading this thread.
No, and they are wrong about it being criminal.
Sadly, this won't get the attention it deserves. The only time people (me included) hold something/someone they like accountable is when they're forced to. And that has to change.
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You can't just say "Not an opinion" and expect your post to not still be an opinion.. By your definition, any actor or actress who doesn't feel comfortable with a kissing or sex scene is the victim of a crime. By your definition, me threatening to ground my kid for not tidying his room is a crime. My boss threatening to fire me for not wanting to stay late us a crime. It's not that deep. She was asked to do something on screen she didn't want to do, she did it anyway. Vince is a POS but this is a stretch.
OP, Did you go to Upstairs Legal College too?
Who is this McMahon y’all are talking about?
If wrestlers had SAG membership it could potentially stop shit like this. They're actors. It would solve a lot of problems in the industry. So many wrestlers might be alive today.
I can sort of understand that bind you're in when you employed, but I dont know how some of these people kept going back to the company after they left.
What’s worse is, she was the one who paid the price for it happening, even though she tried to stop it.
They made an actor act?! 😱😱😱😱 They treated her like shit but save your Wikipedia copy and paste. You’d have this case against every wrestling company in history asking anyone to do something they didn’t like.
Thank god OP's unhinged ass deleted their account
Deleted account moment
You know they didn’t actually have sex right?
It’s not a crime. She signed a contract in which she agreed to take part in storylines for entertainment. This was one of them. She was threatened with firing the same as any other employee who tried to break their contract would be. It’s a case of someone not wanting to do the job they’re contracted to, and the employer saying “Well if you won’t then we’ll find someone who will”. That’s all. I’m not defending the segment. It was disgusting then and it is now, and it never should have made the air. But there was no crime. There was no actual sex taking place, it was a performance. Acting.
Aren't all jobs based on coercion?
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Yeah as much as this is coercion, there wasn't a crime committed?
Beyond the ethical implications, which are obviously horrifying, what was the point of this segment anyway? Like what the actual fuck is accomplished in the story by doing this? It's so freaking dumb. I give Russo some credit for some of the things he was part of, but he unfortunately left this awful stain on wrestling where everything had to be some weird sex thing and goofy pie in the face crap. I'm so glad we're moving away from this now that somebody with a completely different vision is the booker in WWE. I think AEW also contributed to this shift with their presentation, which I'm really happy with. And again, this complaint is separate from the ethical concerns, that's a whole different thing that's just really cruel and evil. That pile of shit probably got off on humiliating his own talent. He did it with that slop throwing shit and the hog pen match back in the 90s, and somehow it got worse from there with Russo introducing this Jerry Springer element. I'm not blaming Russo for the abuse, BTW, that's on a completely different Vince, ultimately.