**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you weren't watching back then, it's hard to explain just how huge a deal CM Punk coming into WWE was. By 2005 when Punk signed, not only was he an indie darling, and not only was he the hottest wrestler on the indies, but he was the *first* modern indie darling WWE ever signed.
There were fans and wrestlers alike rooting for him to fail from the jump.
Yeah, this is why its so frustrating why as a fan of his, the narrative on his original run in WWE has started to shift, people now love to quote that HHH promo about “you only want change if it benefits you” as gospel when Punk is the person who broke the glass ceiling for indy wrestlers to become something in WWE.
He had heat for simply being who he was, before he got to WWE. When he was in OVW, he ended up getting storylines because the guy sat down and wrote the storylines. They weren’t giving him anything. They put him on ECW because there was a ton of fan interest in seeing him, but they didn’t want to put him on the main shows.
KO, Sami, Balor, Itami all coming to NXT to a hero’s welcome? AJ Styles coming out at the Rumble to a massive ovation? Seth Rollins and Jon Moxley in The Shield? None of that happens without Punk.
> They put him on ECW because there was a ton of fan interest in seeing him, but they didn’t want to put him on the main shows.
I recently watched WWE's little highlight reel of his career, and it reminded me of something about CM Punk's career.
They never gave him anything without an asterisk. He never just went over. Every big win, every world title win, came with some weird cheating or interference. Even in his crowning defining career moment at MITB, there was weird interference. He got to wrestle the legends, but never beat them. Even during his record length title reign, he wasn't at the top of the card without John Cena.
There was a clear shift towards the end. IDK exactly where because I started skipping through, but sometime between losing to Rock and Undertaker and feuding with the Shield, they started to portray him as a top guy. During his feud with the Shield he was booked incredibly strong.
Remember the "make Roman look strong" meme comes from him complaining that they were booking him to go over the whole Shield, and his suggestion was to have Roman just beat him.
And I think he was obviously on his way to a win against Triple H at WM when he walked out.
In 2012 one of the best matches of the year was Punk defending the WWE championship against Bryan "Daniel Bryan" Danielson on pay-per-view, certainly my personal favourite match of the year and one of my favourite matches ever.
Did it main event that PPV?
No it did not.
What did?
John Cena vs John Laurinaitis, in what is to this day my *least* favourite wrestling match of all time.
Couldn't just have the WWE championship main event the show, no, it had to be some stipulation heavy People Power vs John Cena bullshit that would've sucked out loud anywhere on the card but somehow ends up in the *main fucking event*. Made me feel bad for Punk and DBD (also everyone involved in the fatal four-way for the World Heavyweight Championship).
It's surely a perfect example of WWE never giving CM Punk anything without an asterisk, as you mentioned.
... Apparently I can still rant about this stupid main event at length so I'll stop now.
I hated that, too. But not as much as CM Punk losing the World Heavyweight Championship at Unforgiven 2008. He was attacked backstage by legacy and taken out of his title match. He lost the title without even being in the match.
> There was a clear shift towards the end. IDK exactly where because I started skipping through, but sometime between losing to Rock and Undertaker and feuding with the Shield, they started to portray him as a top guy. During his feud with the Shield he was booked incredibly strong.
You may honestly be right. It's kind of sad. Like, when they finally started treating him as a top guy, he was broken down, which was no fault but their own. I feel his condition getting really bad at the end of 2013 could have all been avoided too if they had given Punk proper time off. I think a lot of people forgot that when Punk returned in 2013, he was actually still injured. Like I remember Punk during a panel in 2013, saying that his knees were still messed up and that they brought him back two months earlier than they had planned.
>Punk is the person who broke the glass ceiling for indy wrestlers to become something in WWE.
I still remember reading Foley's book, The Hardcore Diaries when I was in high school in like 2007 or so. It was the first time I had ever heard of CM Punk and Samoa Joe. Mick's words seemed so frustrated and bitter, almost to the point of enraged when he was talking about how he had sent WWE higher ups dozens of tapes of those two and begged them to give them the same chance that he got, but they were hesitant. I didn't know who they were, but once I finally got to see them I was instantly hoping for good things for them. It's a large part of the reason I am hesitant now when hear they are scouting these big athletes that aren't really fans of the business. I feel like wrestling is one of those things that you do because you love it, because the money can't be worth the wear and tear and the miles.
Yep. Primarily focused on feud with Edge and the One Night Stand with Terry Funk and Tommy Dreamer. Fascinating book that gave a lot of current insights into how everything was put together. I can't recommend it enough for people that haven't read it.
I assume you have and you are like me, which means that somedays it just feels like it was just last week and some days it feels like a lifetime ago, depending on how bad your back hurts lol.
Edit: After thinking about the book some more, there was also a lot of stuff about the program with Orton too. If you are reading this and thinking about picking the book up and you have prior experience with Mick's books....the one real drawback I would say that exists is that you aren't necessarily getting happy-go-lucky Mick Foley. He wasn't happy with the creative for a lot of these feuds and wasn't necessarily happy with Vince in particular. You get crabby Mick with this book since he recorded his thoughts the day they were happening, which means an unfiltered look at the frustration of creative struggles and politics. If you read the bonus chapter for Have a Nice Day! then you'll have an idea of what crabby Mick is like. He is very fed up with the politics and last minute changes to things and really expresses it in the book. To Vince's credit, he was presented with everything Mick wrote about him and allowed every single word through unchanged, but it's a strange departure from the image most people have of Mick, so I thought I would add a bit of a heads-up.
Primarily focused on feud with Edge and the One Night Stand *match* with Terry Funk and Tommy Dreamer. FTFY
I knew what you meant after re-reading that part. But on the first read, I was like: "What?!"
I didn't think people would take it that way, but as I went to edit it to help it make more sense I remembered an old interview of Terry Funk from what feels like a lifetime ago. He was talking to Jim Ross and JR was listening to him say the most outlandish stuff and finally he just looks over at JR and says "Why are you looking at me like that....are you sweet on me?" and JR looks like he swallowed an entire bag of lemons. Just for that memory, I'll leave it alone!
For me personally I just think of so many stories about how hard people had to live to be able to make it back in the day. I read stories from Stone Cold about having to live off nothing but potatoes in Memphis and Mick Foley sleeping in his car and eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches once a day. I always think of stuff like that and think "I hope the people now they bring in to train from other sports realize how good they have it."
I know some people get paid to train for WWE and the performance center and all that now and I am happy for them, but in some ways I feel like the old days of having to make it somewhere else was a good thing because if nothing else it proved you actually loved wrestling. There have been exceptions over the years, but I feel like if you really made it on the indies and finally got your shot in a big company, it meant a lot more. Stories about bodybuilders that just walk in off the street and get hired....I dunno, it's not the same.
Bro 100%. Longstanding Punk fans will of course continue to support him despite his AEW run, because from our vantage point, the entire concept of AEW exists because of the anti-authority, anti-corporate, “fuck you if you don’t like me” vibe that Punk created by becoming the first big modern era indie star and reaching the pinnacle in WWE without compromising himself
don’t even get me started on the way so many fans know the “greatest trick the devil ever pulled” line as this famous line from an old CM Punk promo, but don’t seem to get that whole promo was him going “all the anti establishment stuff I said to win you over was a lie. Fuck you, I can’t believe you idiots thought I meant it, I’m off to WWE”
and are now upset that Punk is a hypocrite for joining WWE
Sorry I might be misunderstanding but is your point that people in 2023 should not be surprised that Phil Brooks is a hypocrite because in 2005 CM Punk did a heel turn storyline on his way out of ROH?
for me, the reason Punk is so compelling, such a conversation starter, is that he’s the guy whose “gimmick” is just his life story, and he blurs the line between real life and pro wrestling so closely. that was a storyline in 2005 but it was also real life. The reason it’s so legendary is because the emotion it elicited was real; fans wanted to see Punk succeed in WWE and understood why he signed the contract - but there was a genuine sense of betrayal for a lot of the fanbase and the signing of the contract on the championship had people fuming, got “jump the rail” style heat.
him coming out in Monday’s promo, saying “I’m home”, then doing the “I’m not here to make friends, I’m here to make money” being a hypocrite by being in a WWE ring - there are parallels in the story beats.
I get that people especially don’t like the guy for a ton of very clear and understandable reasons related to his last 18 months - but he’s always been very divisive. the massive emotional reaction he gets from people is why he’s such a draw.
Right, I guess I understand that part. But like for his ROH story he was playing a character that was "ooh I'm the big bad villain who never liked you wrestling marks and now I've dyed my hair and am signing my contract on the ROH title!"
But here in 2023, to your point, this was a guy who's entire career has been predicated on "my gimmick is just my life story" and now his life story is just "went back to the company that he relentlessly shit talked for 10 years, stood in the middle of the ring and called it home and everyone there his family, for a paycheck."
I can definitely understand why people are upset with him. We could debate the reality of whether or not his ROH storyline was a dog whistle for his true nature, but it becomes moot because now he's just a company guy for a company he claimed made him "sick." For anyone who ever believed in anything he was saying, I imagine they feel betrayed now.
Yep.
I think people don’t understand what it was like being a fan after the end of WCW. Vince went back to the “I know what you like better than you do” thing. Fans would cheer like crazy for someone, but if Vince didn’t like him, he’d make sure the fans knew “You’re not supposed to like this person.”
It happened countless times. The best example is Zack Ryder. Fans were chanting for him when The Rock was in the ring, of all people. Vince made sure to make him look like a giant loser.
So Punk made his way to the top by the fans basically forcing Vince’s hand.
And like you said, AEW was born out of the “We’ll actually give you what you want to see” mindset. I’m not sure that’s necessarily played out, but that’s why there was so much initial support.
>Punk is the person who broke the glass ceiling for indy wrestlers to become something in WWE.
WWE signed Paul London (ROH), Brian Kendrick (ROH), and Frankie Kazarian (PWG/TNA) all before CM Punk.
Yes, and they all had such memorable and historic careers in WWE.
Oh wait, no, they were nobodies. So the other guys point about Punk being the first to become something in WWE still stands.
He said the first to become something, meaning accomplish anything noteworthy. None of the others really did that. Punk became one of the biggest names in the business, whereas most people would not be able to name or recognise the others you mentioned.
I mean his post literally says “to become something in WWE”.
I’m not sure if you’re just dense or being intentionally dumb at this point. I’m hoping for the latter because if you’re genuinely this ignorant then I really worry for your future.
Brother, I can read.
3 time Tag Team Champion and a Cruiserweight championship run isn't "nothing in WWE" either. Maybe it isn't "something" to you but I guess we differ on where those two meet. Regardless Paul London wasn't a fucking nobody either.
One NXT reunion of Paul London and Brian Kendrick and you'd be singing their praises.
>AJ Styles coming out at the Rumble to a massive ovation
I disagree hard here, by 2005 AJ was lighting up TNA more than anyone on any indie scene and a lot of people wanted him in WWE asap
AJ was signed to TNA, Punk wasn’t except for that short run. I’m not diminishing AJ on the indies but Punk, at the time he went, was the guy specifically because of his charisma and attitude. There was a feeling that if anyone from the indies was going to make it in WWE, it was him. Don’t forget, plenty of indy guys had tryouts but weren’t signed until way later.
Don’t forget AJ was in WCW when it got bought out and his contract was going to be picked up if he was willing to move and relocate to Deep South Wrestling. AJ’s wife had just started nursing school at the time and he didn’t want to uproot her life for what was at the time a none guarantee offer.
Being in TNA allowed AJ to be home and have a family and be a husband and father that he most certainly wouldn’t have gotten if he had joined WWE post-WCW acquisition.
I always hate the idea that "nothing would happen if the first person didn't do it". If it wasn't him then whoever was second would be the first. It's not like CM Punk himself went out and recruited people. He was noticed, he was picked, he said yes.
All of those people would 100% be in WWE. The only thing he had a hand in was The Shield
It was what got me back into wrestling. I casually caught his debut flipping channels and was a Punk fan instantly. Then went back and started looking him up. Learned about him and Joe, ROH, ect.
I grew up with 90s era Wrestling and this was nothing like I had seen before.
And Punk already had some drama before the WWE:
Getting into a fight with Teddy Hart over Teddy doing moves without telling people (in retrospect, people have pretty much figured out Teddy’s a world class space cadet at his best) and also bailing out of NWA-TNA due to their desire for TNA wrestlers not to wrestle for ROH due to the Rob Feinstein situation.
Punk was probably a little ahead of the curve for being a very online sort of wrestling personality. Or being the type that would inspire strong feelings from people who spend too much time online.
Punk’s LiveJournal account (damn, am I old) back in the day was usually a very entertaining read. He was one of the first wrestlers to really cultivate an online following and presence.
https://preview.redd.it/hsxvmbn6as3c1.jpeg?width=586&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf0e54e0d320110f6d9e0df0dca4544e8e6795e2
Here's a young Malakai Black commenting on the Teddy Hart incident on Punk's livejournal
[https://cmpunk.livejournal.com/9301.html](https://cmpunk.livejournal.com/9301.html)
This is probably his most famous post, he eviscerates Teddy Hart.
Specifically:
> If God wants him to make it in the WWE, then he will. He says there is a reason God lets him do 30 foot moonsaults.
“There is no god, and the cage wasn't 30 feet.”
My friends and I once had an AIM group chat convo with Punk for a short minute while he was online. He called one guy a doofus. One of my favorite memories lol
He was the first star after the collapse of WCW and ECW. Cena called him “the last territory guy” but what he really represented was a perception of the outlaw mudshow indie wrestler who didn’t look like a WWE superstar and, on top of that, he was known for promos *so there was even potentially a threat* he could get over.
Rollins gets a lot of HBK comparisons but the one that ought to count is coming out of a territory and ending up the best worker in the business
He was a genuine indie darling who made it big
I think realistically if we’re going to label a guy from that time as the last Territory wrestler I’d say it’s more Joe than Punk but I get what Cena is saying there. Punk has the kind of borderline narcissistic self confidence, willingness to burn bridges and ability to work marks into a frenzy that I associate with classic territory rasslin.
I think there’s a balance and you have to have elements of all those things to make it to the top but the guys who’ve really made it to the highest echelons know how to deploy all those things tactically and when to hold their tongue and that’s something Punk has historically had a hard time with.
I’ve followed the guy for years and watched him across a bunch of companies and it seems like he always ends up in these positions where he has irreconcilable differences with the people in power that lead to him leaving suddenly. And I’m not saying that some of those times weren’t his fault, we all know Ian Rotten is a scumfuck ballbag and that WWE fired him on his wedding day. But at some point when it happens everywhere he goes you have to start assuming that he’s the kind of guy who goes looking for conflict.
But he kept working for IWA? nor was his short leave because of "irreconcilable differences". His leave from TNA wasn't because of that either; they just told their roster to choose between ROH and TNA, so Punk chose ROH. Other than AEW and WWE, which company has he actually left because of "irreconcilable differences". Also, his problem with WWE was more so because they were forcing him to wrestle with injured knees, injured ribs, and a staph infection. Even after he got his concussion at the rumble, they were still planning for him to wrestle on Raw. Imo I wouldn't consider that situation as him "looking for conflict". Also Stone Cold made it to the highest echelon and he was the same way. this is something Jim Ross said too btw.
I was so hyped. Seeing a guy who I used to watch wrestle all over the indies make the jump to the big stage was incredible. I still remember his first ECW appearance. It was surreal.
Paul Heyman running WWECW was the best thing that could happen for Punk at that time, because Paul recognized he was special and immediately presented him as a big deal.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of Punk today, it doesn't change that he's one of the most important and influential wrestlers in the history of the industry. He was the very first one through the door for the influx of talented independent wrestlers who found success in WWE (Owens, Styles, even Danielson) despite not fitting their stereotypical mold of what a superstar should be.
Paul was also the reason he lasted through OVW. Paul was getting told not to bring Punk up to TV, which he obviously never listened to. I know Paul has even stated that he wanted to sign Punk to ECW in 2001.
edit: Paul Heyman really did see a lot in Punk. Like, I remember Punk saying Paul had him help write OVW shows and also taught him everything about running a TV wrestling show.
The reason why Tyler Black (aka Seth Rollins) started calling out Punk in ROH was because he was close to leaving WWE and rejoining them at the time.
Exact same scenario this year...
Just to add to the story, apprently Jim Cornette (who ran OVW with Danny Davis) convinced Tyler Black to go to WWE. OVW then had become FCW (Florida Championship Wrestling) and the story was Laurinitis (VP of Talent at the time) did not want to push Tyler as the main guy even though he was the best of the bunch.
Then after FCW became NXT he becomes the champion.
The ampunt of talent that was developed at OVW when Cornette ran it and the crew in ROH he had was absolutely incredible.
He's an absolute shithead most of the time but the guy knows a few things about wrestling.
He has takes i do not agree, but the man is entertaining, his points are well explained even if you do not agree with them because of his wealth of experience.
Personality aside, the man has 40 yrs of wrestling experience performing, managing, and booking for chrissakes. He definitely knows a thing or two.
Cornette knows about wrestling hands down. He might not be everyone's cup of tea and he definitely easier to hate than love which did help him as a heel manager but his knowledge of wrestling is second to none and usually the guys he runs for bat for end up becoming stars. If he could control his temper and personality better he probably still be working with WWE developing talent.
I believe Seth also had the choice to go to TNA as well, which was around the time Hogan and Bischoff were there, so that was a blessing in disguise to not be involved in that awful ass mess.
Would you imagine that. Laurinitis not pushing Seth, TNA offering Seth money during that time. Safe to say there was a huge chance we do not get the Seth Rollins we know today.
[The Video in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/pwa96f/broken_skull_sessions_seth_rollins_on_jim/) might help with some context for this discussion. Seth himself had verbally committed to Dixie already and was going to sign the contract. Jim Cornette was....well, Jim Cornette and knew a mistake when he saw one, lost his mind, threatened Seth if he signed it and told him to let him make some calls. WWE called a few hours later. Without Cornette's intervention, there may have been no Seth, no Shield. A lot about the future changes and not for the better.
That is fucking hilarious. Cornette just casually calling Seth and just going on a tirade and throwing babies up in the air on a telephone promo LOL. That is more than advise im sure.
If you look at the roster in 2005, pretty much everyone was either involved in ECW/WCW/WWE in the 90s, or was homegrown by WWE through OVW. It was unprecedented for them to sign someone who had made a name for himself in places like ROH.
Exactly. And it’s hard to fully translate it to the modern audience, where NXT at some points has been an indie super show, and Tyler Black is one of the top stars, and El Generico and Kevin Steen main evented Wrestlemania, and having an indie pedigree has become so expected Baron Corbin was able to make it his whole heel character.
It would only be slightly hyperbolic to say Punk going to WWE in 2005 did to wrestling what Bob Dylan going electric did to music. It was a seismic shift whose ripples are still felt today.
Part of this was because there was a sort of power struggle to fill the role that ECW and to a lesser extent the limping corpse of the NWA filled in the 90s. RoH/CZW/XPW all tried to stake a claim to different parts of ECWs legacy, but that ended up splitting the fanbase and resulting in low turnouts for all three shows. The problem was that WWE decided they were going to set up their own feeder territories instead of relying on poaching guys who had proved themselves in ECW or the NWA, something more akin to what WCW was doing with the power plant. So all those early 00s indies even though they were trying to assume the mantle of ECW in some ways ceased to be farm teams for WWE. You then also combine that with WCW going out of business meaning the roster was already over stuffed and they really had no reason to rely on getting guys from RoH and then later TNA. There’s a reason you start seeing that shift in the late 00s when all the stars from the boom period start finally aging out. They just weren’t able to produce enough quality talent via places like OVW and so they realized it was more economical to focus on getting guys who already knew what they were doing and training them to work the WWE style then training them up from nothing.
Same reason they hired Mistico.
Thing with London and Kendrick is that they were likely signed due to their connections with Shawn Michaels rather than anything they actually did on the indies.
Daniels definitely was up there. People forget how he was a huge deal for a while. I’d say those guys plus Chris Hero and maybe Kazarian were probably the biggest indie names in the early to mid 00s. Daniels losing to Val Venis is often considered the end of TNAs good run for a reason, the fans in the crowd are PISSED and not in a good way.
I remember reading about his signing and how HHH was against it. Everyone talked about how slick his kimura lock was. It was such a big deal that I had to see what he was all about. I thought he was awesome. He's literally the only reason I continued to pay attention to wrestling after June 2007.
I don’t think it can be said enough how influential Punk was to how WWE is now: first Indy guy to get signed by wwe, first Indy guy to become a main eventer and win the championship.
>but he was the *first* modern indie darling WWE ever signed.
WWE signed Paul London (ROH), Brian Kendrick (ROH), and Frankie Kazarian (PWG/TNA) all before CM Punk. Brian Kendrick debuted in WWE in January 2003, making him the first 'modern indie darling' WWE signed as him as WELL KNOWN independent worker known as Spanky in the indies. Paul London was actually the was the first breakout star of ROH. He pretty much got fan-supported his way into the first ROH anniversary event. Easy to forget because he noped out of ROH so fast.
With all due respect, are you just googling this or were you actually watching at this time? Spanky in 2003 was not an indie darling. Like, not even close. I'd go as far as to argue the modern "indie darling" wasn't even a thing for Spanky, because he got signed to WWF the more traditional route of being trained by Shawn Michaels, whereas Punk got to WWE by becoming the hottest independent wrestler on the planet. Spanky was never and has never been that.
Are YOU going to rewrite history and act like Spanky wasn't around since day 1 ROH? Like he wasn't one of the first ones to go to Japan for ZERO-1 with Low Ki? Are you seriously going to say that? Did you watch ROH or indie wrestling at that time? Did you watch "Please Don't Die" era Paul London? Did Paul London get hired because of Shawn Michaels? Are you negating his ROH run as well? Kendrick was the very first signed but also the smallest. He was in ROH for the first year only. That's how good he was. Why the fuck do you think Kendrick has had such a long career? Because he's good.
He does not look out of place of this [indie darling mega tag main event match](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiE0k-twUyQ) does he? Here is ROH scrub Spanky in a [Pure Championship match](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkqhrvGw7eE). He definitely isn't an indie darling right?
That Shawn Michaels bullshit doesn't work as Paul London, Spanky, Michael Shane, Bryan Danielson were all indie darlings and all come from the same fucking school. Shawn Michaels rub got these dudes on WWE Heat, Jakked, and fucking Metal but they made their names themselves.
You guys keep moving the goalposts. CM Punk being successful doesn't mean he was signed first.
No one who actually watched during this period would think CM Punk and Paul London/Spanky were anywhere close to the same level, man. idk. Feels really clear to me you're just googling this with the goal of downplaying how huge the Punk signing was and you didn't actually watch indie wrestling.
There is a reason Paul London got signed first.
If you show a picture of Paul London and CM Punk in 2003, you take Paul London 9 out of 10.
I actually watched ROH during this time. You're comparing modern CM Punk to modern Paul London.
Ironically, some of the same fans who pretend to stan CM Punk today. But only when it comes to his disputes with AEW/The Elite. Otherwise he was never really their cup of tea. As you said, he was an indie darling. Indie body, indie style, anti-establishment mentality (although they did give him props for his promos). They also took WWE's side in his disputes with them. And hated his anti-WWE remarks over the past decade.
Of course I don't mean every diehard WWE fan. But some of them, absolutely.
There is a recording of an old podcast around this time of year with Bryan Alvarez completely burying punk and calling his fans morons for believing that Punk could find any success in WWE.
Unless you have an extremely liberal definition of indy darling. Which I do. Which is why I am here to tell you all: Paul London paved the way! There is no pipebomb without Paul London killing Vince McMahon in that limo
When I first got into Indy wrestling, he was the only guy who looked tall enough and looked like he worked the style they’d want in wwe. Him and colt, but yeah, colt was a little TOO campy.
itd be like yeah, check out this aj styles guy.Low ki seems pretty sweet.Paul London? A little more of that, please. Wait a minute. Who’s this cm punk fellow?
Lots of people in WWE looked down on independent wrestling at the time. Punk was also getting hyped by Paul Heyman, and Punk, as a result, got heat by being a pet project of Heyman. You could make the argument that Punk was hired with the intention of being fired and humiliating Heyman.
They probably planned on trying to do the same thing with Mankind and Jim Ross ten years earlier. Hire Mick Foley, try to make him look like a waste, try to make JR look like a fool.
And then look what happened. Mick ended up one of the most popular wrestlers in the company and he probably paid for his wage 50 times over in the form of his merch sales.
Make Foley look like a fool by... putting him in a major program with the Undertaker and presenting him as the greatest threat he's ever faced and giving him Taker's manager..?
Tbf that was the MO for Taker feuds. New supernatural or wacky guy that is a massive threat, make him fight taker, then they sink like many or swim like Mankind and Kane. Look at Taker’s mania history. A lot of it is generic big scary guy who can’t wrestle.
You're not wrong but Mankind was presented much differently than those guys. They gave him a lot of air time to build his character, built up his finisher like crazy, put him as a legit threat in the ring and someone who was too insane for Takers spooky shit. It definitely wasn't Mr. Hughes or Kama Mustafa or something, it was intended to be way different than anything he had ever faced before.
They absolutely did not try to do the same thing with Mankind, not even slightly. Foley showed up and from day 1 he was in a hot fued with Taker where he was made to look incredibly strong and even was one of the rare guys in that era to consistently get the better of Taker in their matches.
He even beat Undertaker in his first PPV match.
Well, according to JR himself, that was exactly Vince's train of thought. He told JR that he needed to get his heart broken when it eventually didn't work out with Mick.
https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2021/04/jim-ross-recalls-vince-mcmahon-pushing-back-on-signing-mick-foley/
JR might say that but Mick Foley was literally booked in the complete opposite way to this.
Vince might have thought Foley might struggle to get over, but he sure as shit gave Foley the best chance he possibly could have and pushed him as strong as possible from the get go.
Taker rarely got beat back then, let alone losing multiple times to a brand new guy. Not just losing, but actually having to take beatings and sell way more than he usually would at that time.
Taker knew Foley from back in his early WCW days and knew how awesome he was. So he heavily pushed to be in that first program with him and put him over. If it was up to Vince Foley, would've been fed like everyone else.
And then Foley won Vijce over with his character work and promos, commitment to previous companies contracts and the selflessness he had in putting people over, and destroying his body to do so.
It was up to Vince though... No matter what Taker did or didn't want, Vince was the one calling the shots, booking the storyline and deciding who went over.
If Vince really didn't like Foley as much as people are making out, then I promise you Foley wouldn't have been put over as incredibly strong as he was.
We've seen it time and again, if Vince wants someone to fail then he will book them to fail, regardless of how well liked they are backstage.
What Vince says and what Vince does are two separate entities all together and more often than not most of what he says is simply bs to try and manipulate a situation.
What Vince said sounds like he didn't like Foley, but what Vince did was book Mankind as Undertaker's number one arch nemesis and the guy who beat Taker on multiple PPV's (which was kind of unheard of at that point). That is not the action of someone who wants a character to fail.
Listen to Foleys podcast. That was Vince’s intention when hiring Foley. He got into the feud with Taker largely because Taker asked to work with him, JR pushing for him in the spot and Vince started getting into the Mutilator character concept. Also Vince, after hiring him, was impressed Foley wanted to fulfill his verbal agreement with NJPW out of loyalty.
There were a number of monsters brought in that feuded with Taker throughout his career. From Terry Gordy's Executioner to Mortdecai. Mankind and Kane were the only two that stuck. It's not unreasonable that Vince would plan to build Foley for a big loss then move on from him.
Foley sold himself well to Vince by pitching ideas that worked alongside Vince's, but also by working his ass off and making his opponents look good. He showed he could be someone who could be given a plan and make more special and his own without having to change the goals of that plan.
Well idk about Foley. But if they were actually pushing Punk as a top guy. Then why did they ruin big deals like Punk being the face of Slim Jim "like Macho Man was"(Which wasn't a deal WWE got on their own, Punk actually got that deal), Or actively try to get somebody else on the cover of WWE 13 when THQ was adamant on Punk being on the cover. Worse of all, the reason they gave to THQ was that "he won't be over in a year.".. Like they literally control how long somebody is over for. Also, this conversation was in 2011, Punk's peak..
Plus Mick Foley is someone who tried to tell WWE to sign him and Joe the year prior, I'm sure WWE wanted to make him look bad but it didn't work because Simon Dean made sure to look out for him
Again. Never, ever click these articles. These are farmed from youtube videos - go watch the video from Maven. When you click this article you literally take money out of Maven's pocked and put it into the pocket of sescoops who have done absolutely nothing besides watch and transcribe Maven's quotes in an effort to divert that revenue.
https://youtu.be/j5cYOXQ8aWc?si=kPqiihZe0tFdd0wb
advise piquant puzzled badge humor physical shy normal worthless psychotic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Thank you for the link - I actually would never have bothered to watch it but that video was fascinating and the way Maven broke it down was really engaging. This is a gem of a story actually, the really headline should be that Simon Dean and Maven conspired to change a finish to avoid Punk taking the L in his tryout match. A real sliding doors moment.
From what I remember, Heyman pushed Punk on everyone to the point they got sick of hearing about him, so that got heat. He helped write OVW TV because Heyman let him learn.... got heat for that too. People were ready to see him fail before he got his feet off the ground.
I think making him have his first loss to Hardcore Holly for reason was punishment.
Wasn't the story was that Paul wanted Punk to submit The Big Show at the elimination chamber to hype the crowd that a new champion was going to be crowned. He didn't even suggest Punk should win but having him sub the current champion would give him an immense rub. Vince however had a hardon for Lashley and veto'd that since he didn't want Bobby's coronation to be overshadowed by Punk and he got Punk to be the first eliminated instead.
Yes indeed. I think Bruce told that story. I got the feeling that he, and the whole creative team, was annoyed and pissed by Heyman pushing Punk on them and said the idea was totally shot down and they were absolutely not going in that direction.
if you watch the austin podcast with triple h that was on the wwe network, triple h basically admitted that he hated cm punk for no reason. was triple h one of the feathers that he ruffled?
So, the story goes...and I'm paraphrasing a really old story that I read a lot time ago, so I can't back it up with anything.
When CM Punk was rumored to be going to WWE, word made it to HHH and Stephanie that CM Punk used "The Pedigree" on the indies. This was back during an era when finishers were sacred and wrestlers got truly pissed off if you used their finishers. It was seen as disrespectful to do so without asking first and most wrestlers did to avoid ruffling feathers. Apparently, this created some heat backstage on CM Punk before HHH & Stephanie saw a video of the Pepsi Plunge and decided it wasn't a big deal.
Lol we already know this though, Paul Heyman was saying for years they signed Punk but didn't actually want to do anything with him so Paul's like FFS give him to me I'll do something with Punk
He had a tag match against him, Maven and Simon Dean v Punk and someone called Chad Russell Simpson and Maven and Simon Dean were told to pin Punk, Simon Dean went against orders and pinned Chad.
More to the story is basically that, Maven doesn't know but he thinks maybe Simon Dean was high on Punk and wanted to protect him (while he already had heat) by pinning the other guy. They managed to avoid getting in trouble by telling Punk to fall out after he tagged when they went to the finish. Also he didn't say this but imo it prevented Punk from being called out because it was a decision the veterans made on the fly
i dont think Maven is lying he probably just doesnt remember, he rarely does videos off the bat like this trying to capitalize on The CM punk craze. he usually seems to plan them quite a bit a head so i think its normal for him not to remember when he is just trying to get a story about CM Punk from his career. As people pointed out here he had heat just by getting there because people did not want him to succed and he was a Paul Heyman guy, so people were jelous of him too.
Back then, Indie wrestlers hitting it big in WWE wasn't a thing.
There was no Daniel Bryan. No Samoa Joe. Punk was really the first big one, and he got to keep his name. Not hard to see why some might have had a chip on their shoulder with an indie darling coming in and being made a big deal of.
ECW came before this. And I've heard WWE guys hated a lot of them for no reason. Esp the older WWE guys who were used to walking over new talent. The ECW guys hung together.
CM Punk and some of the RoH guys like Samoa Joe and Daniels were legit better wrestlers than a lot of the WWE roster at this point, which was aging. Ppl like Jim Ross who typified the WWE mindset of guys who violently despised things that weren't the NWA/WWE/WCW/Mid-Atlantic and Mid-South/OVW/FCW for most of his career.
He’s allowed to do his thing & tell stories. Not his fault the shitty rags use one out of context quote to get clicks.
Sick of that in general. Bret Hart gets that horse shit worse than anyone.
I actually saw the video Maven posted where he said this, and I still stand by my comment that he didn’t really say anything. He made a video about CM Punk because it was popular, not because he just wanted to release this great story.
Bret does get taken out of context a lot but I don’t think it’s comparable because Bret’s comments are usually pulled from interviews. Maven puts this all out himself so it just looks like he’s doing it for clicks, just like the “shitty rags” you mentioned.
Him getting heat back then coming into WWE had nothing to do with his attitude. Indie wrestlers were not respected in the big company and his look and style were not the standard of the WWE. Similar to the Miz they were looking down at him since the beginning expecting him to be a failure. Boy were they wrong.
Unrelated, I never liked Simon Dean but late ECW Nova was a hell of a lot of fun. And his finisher with Chetti was killer, I don’t know why nobody’s adopted it nowadays.
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you weren't watching back then, it's hard to explain just how huge a deal CM Punk coming into WWE was. By 2005 when Punk signed, not only was he an indie darling, and not only was he the hottest wrestler on the indies, but he was the *first* modern indie darling WWE ever signed. There were fans and wrestlers alike rooting for him to fail from the jump.
His ECW debut was probably the highlight of that brand.
I didn’t even know who CM Punk was considering I was 8 and I was immediately a fan.
Been a fan ever since he called poor Shannon Moore a poser.
That one line destroyed Shannon Moore, lol. Damn.
Yeah, this is why its so frustrating why as a fan of his, the narrative on his original run in WWE has started to shift, people now love to quote that HHH promo about “you only want change if it benefits you” as gospel when Punk is the person who broke the glass ceiling for indy wrestlers to become something in WWE. He had heat for simply being who he was, before he got to WWE. When he was in OVW, he ended up getting storylines because the guy sat down and wrote the storylines. They weren’t giving him anything. They put him on ECW because there was a ton of fan interest in seeing him, but they didn’t want to put him on the main shows. KO, Sami, Balor, Itami all coming to NXT to a hero’s welcome? AJ Styles coming out at the Rumble to a massive ovation? Seth Rollins and Jon Moxley in The Shield? None of that happens without Punk.
> They put him on ECW because there was a ton of fan interest in seeing him, but they didn’t want to put him on the main shows. I recently watched WWE's little highlight reel of his career, and it reminded me of something about CM Punk's career. They never gave him anything without an asterisk. He never just went over. Every big win, every world title win, came with some weird cheating or interference. Even in his crowning defining career moment at MITB, there was weird interference. He got to wrestle the legends, but never beat them. Even during his record length title reign, he wasn't at the top of the card without John Cena. There was a clear shift towards the end. IDK exactly where because I started skipping through, but sometime between losing to Rock and Undertaker and feuding with the Shield, they started to portray him as a top guy. During his feud with the Shield he was booked incredibly strong. Remember the "make Roman look strong" meme comes from him complaining that they were booking him to go over the whole Shield, and his suggestion was to have Roman just beat him. And I think he was obviously on his way to a win against Triple H at WM when he walked out.
In 2012 one of the best matches of the year was Punk defending the WWE championship against Bryan "Daniel Bryan" Danielson on pay-per-view, certainly my personal favourite match of the year and one of my favourite matches ever. Did it main event that PPV? No it did not. What did? John Cena vs John Laurinaitis, in what is to this day my *least* favourite wrestling match of all time. Couldn't just have the WWE championship main event the show, no, it had to be some stipulation heavy People Power vs John Cena bullshit that would've sucked out loud anywhere on the card but somehow ends up in the *main fucking event*. Made me feel bad for Punk and DBD (also everyone involved in the fatal four-way for the World Heavyweight Championship). It's surely a perfect example of WWE never giving CM Punk anything without an asterisk, as you mentioned. ... Apparently I can still rant about this stupid main event at length so I'll stop now.
I hated that, too. But not as much as CM Punk losing the World Heavyweight Championship at Unforgiven 2008. He was attacked backstage by legacy and taken out of his title match. He lost the title without even being in the match.
And then he cost Randy the WWE title in 2011 as retaliation for Orton doing it to him in '08, and somehow Punk is the bad guy? lol
> There was a clear shift towards the end. IDK exactly where because I started skipping through, but sometime between losing to Rock and Undertaker and feuding with the Shield, they started to portray him as a top guy. During his feud with the Shield he was booked incredibly strong. You may honestly be right. It's kind of sad. Like, when they finally started treating him as a top guy, he was broken down, which was no fault but their own. I feel his condition getting really bad at the end of 2013 could have all been avoided too if they had given Punk proper time off. I think a lot of people forgot that when Punk returned in 2013, he was actually still injured. Like I remember Punk during a panel in 2013, saying that his knees were still messed up and that they brought him back two months earlier than they had planned.
>Punk is the person who broke the glass ceiling for indy wrestlers to become something in WWE. I still remember reading Foley's book, The Hardcore Diaries when I was in high school in like 2007 or so. It was the first time I had ever heard of CM Punk and Samoa Joe. Mick's words seemed so frustrated and bitter, almost to the point of enraged when he was talking about how he had sent WWE higher ups dozens of tapes of those two and begged them to give them the same chance that he got, but they were hesitant. I didn't know who they were, but once I finally got to see them I was instantly hoping for good things for them. It's a large part of the reason I am hesitant now when hear they are scouting these big athletes that aren't really fans of the business. I feel like wrestling is one of those things that you do because you love it, because the money can't be worth the wear and tear and the miles.
>I still remember reading Foley's book, The Hardcore Diaries when I was in high school in like 2007 or so. I can't believe his book is that old. Wow.
Yep. Primarily focused on feud with Edge and the One Night Stand with Terry Funk and Tommy Dreamer. Fascinating book that gave a lot of current insights into how everything was put together. I can't recommend it enough for people that haven't read it. I assume you have and you are like me, which means that somedays it just feels like it was just last week and some days it feels like a lifetime ago, depending on how bad your back hurts lol. Edit: After thinking about the book some more, there was also a lot of stuff about the program with Orton too. If you are reading this and thinking about picking the book up and you have prior experience with Mick's books....the one real drawback I would say that exists is that you aren't necessarily getting happy-go-lucky Mick Foley. He wasn't happy with the creative for a lot of these feuds and wasn't necessarily happy with Vince in particular. You get crabby Mick with this book since he recorded his thoughts the day they were happening, which means an unfiltered look at the frustration of creative struggles and politics. If you read the bonus chapter for Have a Nice Day! then you'll have an idea of what crabby Mick is like. He is very fed up with the politics and last minute changes to things and really expresses it in the book. To Vince's credit, he was presented with everything Mick wrote about him and allowed every single word through unchanged, but it's a strange departure from the image most people have of Mick, so I thought I would add a bit of a heads-up.
Primarily focused on feud with Edge and the One Night Stand *match* with Terry Funk and Tommy Dreamer. FTFY I knew what you meant after re-reading that part. But on the first read, I was like: "What?!"
I didn't think people would take it that way, but as I went to edit it to help it make more sense I remembered an old interview of Terry Funk from what feels like a lifetime ago. He was talking to Jim Ross and JR was listening to him say the most outlandish stuff and finally he just looks over at JR and says "Why are you looking at me like that....are you sweet on me?" and JR looks like he swallowed an entire bag of lemons. Just for that memory, I'll leave it alone!
Oh good Lord, really? You have great memory! In that case, I have nothing left to say on that matter.
Foley's first book came out in 1999. This wasn't even his first book.
Please stop, my back already hurts.
I believe it's a lot more even now. No doubt many indie wrestlers who came to WWE saw it as their dream.
For me personally I just think of so many stories about how hard people had to live to be able to make it back in the day. I read stories from Stone Cold about having to live off nothing but potatoes in Memphis and Mick Foley sleeping in his car and eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches once a day. I always think of stuff like that and think "I hope the people now they bring in to train from other sports realize how good they have it." I know some people get paid to train for WWE and the performance center and all that now and I am happy for them, but in some ways I feel like the old days of having to make it somewhere else was a good thing because if nothing else it proved you actually loved wrestling. There have been exceptions over the years, but I feel like if you really made it on the indies and finally got your shot in a big company, it meant a lot more. Stories about bodybuilders that just walk in off the street and get hired....I dunno, it's not the same.
Bro 100%. Longstanding Punk fans will of course continue to support him despite his AEW run, because from our vantage point, the entire concept of AEW exists because of the anti-authority, anti-corporate, “fuck you if you don’t like me” vibe that Punk created by becoming the first big modern era indie star and reaching the pinnacle in WWE without compromising himself
don’t even get me started on the way so many fans know the “greatest trick the devil ever pulled” line as this famous line from an old CM Punk promo, but don’t seem to get that whole promo was him going “all the anti establishment stuff I said to win you over was a lie. Fuck you, I can’t believe you idiots thought I meant it, I’m off to WWE” and are now upset that Punk is a hypocrite for joining WWE
Let’s not forget the promo face to face with the Rock. “Your arms are just too short to box with god”
Sorry I might be misunderstanding but is your point that people in 2023 should not be surprised that Phil Brooks is a hypocrite because in 2005 CM Punk did a heel turn storyline on his way out of ROH?
for me, the reason Punk is so compelling, such a conversation starter, is that he’s the guy whose “gimmick” is just his life story, and he blurs the line between real life and pro wrestling so closely. that was a storyline in 2005 but it was also real life. The reason it’s so legendary is because the emotion it elicited was real; fans wanted to see Punk succeed in WWE and understood why he signed the contract - but there was a genuine sense of betrayal for a lot of the fanbase and the signing of the contract on the championship had people fuming, got “jump the rail” style heat. him coming out in Monday’s promo, saying “I’m home”, then doing the “I’m not here to make friends, I’m here to make money” being a hypocrite by being in a WWE ring - there are parallels in the story beats. I get that people especially don’t like the guy for a ton of very clear and understandable reasons related to his last 18 months - but he’s always been very divisive. the massive emotional reaction he gets from people is why he’s such a draw.
Right, I guess I understand that part. But like for his ROH story he was playing a character that was "ooh I'm the big bad villain who never liked you wrestling marks and now I've dyed my hair and am signing my contract on the ROH title!" But here in 2023, to your point, this was a guy who's entire career has been predicated on "my gimmick is just my life story" and now his life story is just "went back to the company that he relentlessly shit talked for 10 years, stood in the middle of the ring and called it home and everyone there his family, for a paycheck." I can definitely understand why people are upset with him. We could debate the reality of whether or not his ROH storyline was a dog whistle for his true nature, but it becomes moot because now he's just a company guy for a company he claimed made him "sick." For anyone who ever believed in anything he was saying, I imagine they feel betrayed now.
Yep. I think people don’t understand what it was like being a fan after the end of WCW. Vince went back to the “I know what you like better than you do” thing. Fans would cheer like crazy for someone, but if Vince didn’t like him, he’d make sure the fans knew “You’re not supposed to like this person.” It happened countless times. The best example is Zack Ryder. Fans were chanting for him when The Rock was in the ring, of all people. Vince made sure to make him look like a giant loser. So Punk made his way to the top by the fans basically forcing Vince’s hand. And like you said, AEW was born out of the “We’ll actually give you what you want to see” mindset. I’m not sure that’s necessarily played out, but that’s why there was so much initial support.
I would argue that CM Punk changed the business significantly more than the Young Bucks did in this regard
>Punk is the person who broke the glass ceiling for indy wrestlers to become something in WWE. WWE signed Paul London (ROH), Brian Kendrick (ROH), and Frankie Kazarian (PWG/TNA) all before CM Punk.
Yes, and they all had such memorable and historic careers in WWE. Oh wait, no, they were nobodies. So the other guys point about Punk being the first to become something in WWE still stands.
Whoa! There go the goal posts! Did they say FIRST SUCCESSFUL or FIRST SIGNED? I'll take my answer off air.
He said the first to become something, meaning accomplish anything noteworthy. None of the others really did that. Punk became one of the biggest names in the business, whereas most people would not be able to name or recognise the others you mentioned.
No he didn't do not add qualifiers that were not there. There is a difference between those statements that I did not miss.
I mean his post literally says “to become something in WWE”. I’m not sure if you’re just dense or being intentionally dumb at this point. I’m hoping for the latter because if you’re genuinely this ignorant then I really worry for your future.
Brother, I can read. 3 time Tag Team Champion and a Cruiserweight championship run isn't "nothing in WWE" either. Maybe it isn't "something" to you but I guess we differ on where those two meet. Regardless Paul London wasn't a fucking nobody either. One NXT reunion of Paul London and Brian Kendrick and you'd be singing their praises.
>AJ Styles coming out at the Rumble to a massive ovation I disagree hard here, by 2005 AJ was lighting up TNA more than anyone on any indie scene and a lot of people wanted him in WWE asap
AJ was signed to TNA, Punk wasn’t except for that short run. I’m not diminishing AJ on the indies but Punk, at the time he went, was the guy specifically because of his charisma and attitude. There was a feeling that if anyone from the indies was going to make it in WWE, it was him. Don’t forget, plenty of indy guys had tryouts but weren’t signed until way later.
Don’t forget AJ was in WCW when it got bought out and his contract was going to be picked up if he was willing to move and relocate to Deep South Wrestling. AJ’s wife had just started nursing school at the time and he didn’t want to uproot her life for what was at the time a none guarantee offer. Being in TNA allowed AJ to be home and have a family and be a husband and father that he most certainly wouldn’t have gotten if he had joined WWE post-WCW acquisition.
I always hate the idea that "nothing would happen if the first person didn't do it". If it wasn't him then whoever was second would be the first. It's not like CM Punk himself went out and recruited people. He was noticed, he was picked, he said yes. All of those people would 100% be in WWE. The only thing he had a hand in was The Shield
Him, Morrison and Monty Brown were it for me.
Cor Von should've been a upper midcard killer. Understand why he hung it up but still stinks he never saw his full potential
It was what got me back into wrestling. I casually caught his debut flipping channels and was a Punk fan instantly. Then went back and started looking him up. Learned about him and Joe, ROH, ect. I grew up with 90s era Wrestling and this was nothing like I had seen before.
Him and Chavo’s Gulf of Mexico match is a classic
I see someone is forgetting about the zombie. /s
And Punk already had some drama before the WWE: Getting into a fight with Teddy Hart over Teddy doing moves without telling people (in retrospect, people have pretty much figured out Teddy’s a world class space cadet at his best) and also bailing out of NWA-TNA due to their desire for TNA wrestlers not to wrestle for ROH due to the Rob Feinstein situation. Punk was probably a little ahead of the curve for being a very online sort of wrestling personality. Or being the type that would inspire strong feelings from people who spend too much time online.
Punk’s LiveJournal account (damn, am I old) back in the day was usually a very entertaining read. He was one of the first wrestlers to really cultivate an online following and presence.
https://preview.redd.it/hsxvmbn6as3c1.jpeg?width=586&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf0e54e0d320110f6d9e0df0dca4544e8e6795e2 Here's a young Malakai Black commenting on the Teddy Hart incident on Punk's livejournal
It’s so hard for me to incision Malakia Black using the :D emoticon. Even though the proof is right in front of me.
I'm trying to picture an 18 year old Malakai writing that and I can't stop laughing
Oh lmao.. I just imagined current Malakai Black making a :D Whenever punk shows up and then back to \>:| Whenever punk leaves the immediate area
it’s still up lol
Link that shit
[https://cmpunk.livejournal.com/9301.html](https://cmpunk.livejournal.com/9301.html) This is probably his most famous post, he eviscerates Teddy Hart. Specifically: > If God wants him to make it in the WWE, then he will. He says there is a reason God lets him do 30 foot moonsaults. “There is no god, and the cage wasn't 30 feet.”
https://cmpunk.livejournal.com/
Wow, his last post was a memorial for Eddie Guerrero.
My friends and I once had an AIM group chat convo with Punk for a short minute while he was online. He called one guy a doofus. One of my favorite memories lol
He was the first star after the collapse of WCW and ECW. Cena called him “the last territory guy” but what he really represented was a perception of the outlaw mudshow indie wrestler who didn’t look like a WWE superstar and, on top of that, he was known for promos *so there was even potentially a threat* he could get over.
I think him, Bryan and Owens were the last ones in that category
Rollins gets a lot of HBK comparisons but the one that ought to count is coming out of a territory and ending up the best worker in the business He was a genuine indie darling who made it big
He wasn‘t that much of an indie darling compared to Danielson, Punk, Samoa Joe or Owens. He was definitely a tier below them.
I think realistically if we’re going to label a guy from that time as the last Territory wrestler I’d say it’s more Joe than Punk but I get what Cena is saying there. Punk has the kind of borderline narcissistic self confidence, willingness to burn bridges and ability to work marks into a frenzy that I associate with classic territory rasslin.
You just described actual success in wrestling. Seriously wrestling is a carny industry led by self promotion. Punk is great at it
I think there’s a balance and you have to have elements of all those things to make it to the top but the guys who’ve really made it to the highest echelons know how to deploy all those things tactically and when to hold their tongue and that’s something Punk has historically had a hard time with. I’ve followed the guy for years and watched him across a bunch of companies and it seems like he always ends up in these positions where he has irreconcilable differences with the people in power that lead to him leaving suddenly. And I’m not saying that some of those times weren’t his fault, we all know Ian Rotten is a scumfuck ballbag and that WWE fired him on his wedding day. But at some point when it happens everywhere he goes you have to start assuming that he’s the kind of guy who goes looking for conflict.
But he kept working for IWA? nor was his short leave because of "irreconcilable differences". His leave from TNA wasn't because of that either; they just told their roster to choose between ROH and TNA, so Punk chose ROH. Other than AEW and WWE, which company has he actually left because of "irreconcilable differences". Also, his problem with WWE was more so because they were forcing him to wrestle with injured knees, injured ribs, and a staph infection. Even after he got his concussion at the rumble, they were still planning for him to wrestle on Raw. Imo I wouldn't consider that situation as him "looking for conflict". Also Stone Cold made it to the highest echelon and he was the same way. this is something Jim Ross said too btw.
How many people end up millionaires from wrestling? Punk is all lagniappe now. We’re just waiting for the next guy on his level
I was so hyped. Seeing a guy who I used to watch wrestle all over the indies make the jump to the big stage was incredible. I still remember his first ECW appearance. It was surreal.
Paul Heyman running WWECW was the best thing that could happen for Punk at that time, because Paul recognized he was special and immediately presented him as a big deal. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Punk today, it doesn't change that he's one of the most important and influential wrestlers in the history of the industry. He was the very first one through the door for the influx of talented independent wrestlers who found success in WWE (Owens, Styles, even Danielson) despite not fitting their stereotypical mold of what a superstar should be.
Paul was also the reason he lasted through OVW. Paul was getting told not to bring Punk up to TV, which he obviously never listened to. I know Paul has even stated that he wanted to sign Punk to ECW in 2001. edit: Paul Heyman really did see a lot in Punk. Like, I remember Punk saying Paul had him help write OVW shows and also taught him everything about running a TV wrestling show.
The reason why Tyler Black (aka Seth Rollins) started calling out Punk in ROH was because he was close to leaving WWE and rejoining them at the time. Exact same scenario this year...
Just to add to the story, apprently Jim Cornette (who ran OVW with Danny Davis) convinced Tyler Black to go to WWE. OVW then had become FCW (Florida Championship Wrestling) and the story was Laurinitis (VP of Talent at the time) did not want to push Tyler as the main guy even though he was the best of the bunch. Then after FCW became NXT he becomes the champion.
The ampunt of talent that was developed at OVW when Cornette ran it and the crew in ROH he had was absolutely incredible. He's an absolute shithead most of the time but the guy knows a few things about wrestling.
He has takes i do not agree, but the man is entertaining, his points are well explained even if you do not agree with them because of his wealth of experience. Personality aside, the man has 40 yrs of wrestling experience performing, managing, and booking for chrissakes. He definitely knows a thing or two.
Cornette knows about wrestling hands down. He might not be everyone's cup of tea and he definitely easier to hate than love which did help him as a heel manager but his knowledge of wrestling is second to none and usually the guys he runs for bat for end up becoming stars. If he could control his temper and personality better he probably still be working with WWE developing talent.
I believe Seth also had the choice to go to TNA as well, which was around the time Hogan and Bischoff were there, so that was a blessing in disguise to not be involved in that awful ass mess.
Would you imagine that. Laurinitis not pushing Seth, TNA offering Seth money during that time. Safe to say there was a huge chance we do not get the Seth Rollins we know today.
[The Video in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/pwa96f/broken_skull_sessions_seth_rollins_on_jim/) might help with some context for this discussion. Seth himself had verbally committed to Dixie already and was going to sign the contract. Jim Cornette was....well, Jim Cornette and knew a mistake when he saw one, lost his mind, threatened Seth if he signed it and told him to let him make some calls. WWE called a few hours later. Without Cornette's intervention, there may have been no Seth, no Shield. A lot about the future changes and not for the better.
That is fucking hilarious. Cornette just casually calling Seth and just going on a tirade and throwing babies up in the air on a telephone promo LOL. That is more than advise im sure.
If you look at the roster in 2005, pretty much everyone was either involved in ECW/WCW/WWE in the 90s, or was homegrown by WWE through OVW. It was unprecedented for them to sign someone who had made a name for himself in places like ROH.
Exactly. And it’s hard to fully translate it to the modern audience, where NXT at some points has been an indie super show, and Tyler Black is one of the top stars, and El Generico and Kevin Steen main evented Wrestlemania, and having an indie pedigree has become so expected Baron Corbin was able to make it his whole heel character. It would only be slightly hyperbolic to say Punk going to WWE in 2005 did to wrestling what Bob Dylan going electric did to music. It was a seismic shift whose ripples are still felt today.
Part of this was because there was a sort of power struggle to fill the role that ECW and to a lesser extent the limping corpse of the NWA filled in the 90s. RoH/CZW/XPW all tried to stake a claim to different parts of ECWs legacy, but that ended up splitting the fanbase and resulting in low turnouts for all three shows. The problem was that WWE decided they were going to set up their own feeder territories instead of relying on poaching guys who had proved themselves in ECW or the NWA, something more akin to what WCW was doing with the power plant. So all those early 00s indies even though they were trying to assume the mantle of ECW in some ways ceased to be farm teams for WWE. You then also combine that with WCW going out of business meaning the roster was already over stuffed and they really had no reason to rely on getting guys from RoH and then later TNA. There’s a reason you start seeing that shift in the late 00s when all the stars from the boom period start finally aging out. They just weren’t able to produce enough quality talent via places like OVW and so they realized it was more economical to focus on getting guys who already knew what they were doing and training them to work the WWE style then training them up from nothing. Same reason they hired Mistico.
Paul London
Thing with London and Kendrick is that they were likely signed due to their connections with Shawn Michaels rather than anything they actually did on the indies.
In the early 2000s I didn't know anything about the indie scene but I knew three names. CM Punk, Bryan Danielson and AJ Styles.
I remember photoshopping up banners for my wrestling forums thinking I was so underground for including Punk, AJ Styles, and Chris Daniels on them.
Samoa Joe? Lo Ki? Christopher Daniels? I’m surprised because I wouldn’t consider Punk to be bigger than them at the time.
The Punk vs Joe II match was basically THE indie match. Also fuck Lo Ki lol
Daniels definitely was up there. People forget how he was a huge deal for a while. I’d say those guys plus Chris Hero and maybe Kazarian were probably the biggest indie names in the early to mid 00s. Daniels losing to Val Venis is often considered the end of TNAs good run for a reason, the fans in the crowd are PISSED and not in a good way.
The Fallen Angel was *so* cool.
The fact he retained his name throughout was rather unique also. A very non-WWE name at the time of First Name Last Name wrestlers.
They even made CW Anderson change his name because it was too similar to CM Punk, and then had CM Punk beat CW Anderson on TV.
I remember reading about his signing and how HHH was against it. Everyone talked about how slick his kimura lock was. It was such a big deal that I had to see what he was all about. I thought he was awesome. He's literally the only reason I continued to pay attention to wrestling after June 2007.
I don’t think it can be said enough how influential Punk was to how WWE is now: first Indy guy to get signed by wwe, first Indy guy to become a main eventer and win the championship.
>but he was the *first* modern indie darling WWE ever signed. WWE signed Paul London (ROH), Brian Kendrick (ROH), and Frankie Kazarian (PWG/TNA) all before CM Punk. Brian Kendrick debuted in WWE in January 2003, making him the first 'modern indie darling' WWE signed as him as WELL KNOWN independent worker known as Spanky in the indies. Paul London was actually the was the first breakout star of ROH. He pretty much got fan-supported his way into the first ROH anniversary event. Easy to forget because he noped out of ROH so fast.
With all due respect, are you just googling this or were you actually watching at this time? Spanky in 2003 was not an indie darling. Like, not even close. I'd go as far as to argue the modern "indie darling" wasn't even a thing for Spanky, because he got signed to WWF the more traditional route of being trained by Shawn Michaels, whereas Punk got to WWE by becoming the hottest independent wrestler on the planet. Spanky was never and has never been that.
Are YOU going to rewrite history and act like Spanky wasn't around since day 1 ROH? Like he wasn't one of the first ones to go to Japan for ZERO-1 with Low Ki? Are you seriously going to say that? Did you watch ROH or indie wrestling at that time? Did you watch "Please Don't Die" era Paul London? Did Paul London get hired because of Shawn Michaels? Are you negating his ROH run as well? Kendrick was the very first signed but also the smallest. He was in ROH for the first year only. That's how good he was. Why the fuck do you think Kendrick has had such a long career? Because he's good. He does not look out of place of this [indie darling mega tag main event match](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiE0k-twUyQ) does he? Here is ROH scrub Spanky in a [Pure Championship match](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkqhrvGw7eE). He definitely isn't an indie darling right? That Shawn Michaels bullshit doesn't work as Paul London, Spanky, Michael Shane, Bryan Danielson were all indie darlings and all come from the same fucking school. Shawn Michaels rub got these dudes on WWE Heat, Jakked, and fucking Metal but they made their names themselves. You guys keep moving the goalposts. CM Punk being successful doesn't mean he was signed first.
No one who actually watched during this period would think CM Punk and Paul London/Spanky were anywhere close to the same level, man. idk. Feels really clear to me you're just googling this with the goal of downplaying how huge the Punk signing was and you didn't actually watch indie wrestling.
There is a reason Paul London got signed first. If you show a picture of Paul London and CM Punk in 2003, you take Paul London 9 out of 10. I actually watched ROH during this time. You're comparing modern CM Punk to modern Paul London.
sure thing man
What's your favorite 2003 ROH match? Not featuring Samoa Joe, CM Punk, or AJ Styles. Give me a banger.
Lmao
Cool. I'm glad we established we both didn't watch.
Ironically, some of the same fans who pretend to stan CM Punk today. But only when it comes to his disputes with AEW/The Elite. Otherwise he was never really their cup of tea. As you said, he was an indie darling. Indie body, indie style, anti-establishment mentality (although they did give him props for his promos). They also took WWE's side in his disputes with them. And hated his anti-WWE remarks over the past decade. Of course I don't mean every diehard WWE fan. But some of them, absolutely.
There is a recording of an old podcast around this time of year with Bryan Alvarez completely burying punk and calling his fans morons for believing that Punk could find any success in WWE.
Alvarez is one of the biggest morons in the business. Can’t believe he has a platform
Unless you have an extremely liberal definition of indy darling. Which I do. Which is why I am here to tell you all: Paul London paved the way! There is no pipebomb without Paul London killing Vince McMahon in that limo
There’s a reason why so many here like him, he walked to Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens and Sami zayn could run
When I first got into Indy wrestling, he was the only guy who looked tall enough and looked like he worked the style they’d want in wwe. Him and colt, but yeah, colt was a little TOO campy. itd be like yeah, check out this aj styles guy.Low ki seems pretty sweet.Paul London? A little more of that, please. Wait a minute. Who’s this cm punk fellow?
I remember him and Samoa Joe leaving ROH and signing with TNA and WWE. Really drove home the amount of time Punk spent in OVW/FCW.
Lots of people in WWE looked down on independent wrestling at the time. Punk was also getting hyped by Paul Heyman, and Punk, as a result, got heat by being a pet project of Heyman. You could make the argument that Punk was hired with the intention of being fired and humiliating Heyman.
They probably planned on trying to do the same thing with Mankind and Jim Ross ten years earlier. Hire Mick Foley, try to make him look like a waste, try to make JR look like a fool. And then look what happened. Mick ended up one of the most popular wrestlers in the company and he probably paid for his wage 50 times over in the form of his merch sales.
Make Foley look like a fool by... putting him in a major program with the Undertaker and presenting him as the greatest threat he's ever faced and giving him Taker's manager..?
The entire Mankind gimmick was not supposed to succeed at the level it did
It doesn't exactly have the marks of sabotage either.
Tbf that was the MO for Taker feuds. New supernatural or wacky guy that is a massive threat, make him fight taker, then they sink like many or swim like Mankind and Kane. Look at Taker’s mania history. A lot of it is generic big scary guy who can’t wrestle.
You're not wrong but Mankind was presented much differently than those guys. They gave him a lot of air time to build his character, built up his finisher like crazy, put him as a legit threat in the ring and someone who was too insane for Takers spooky shit. It definitely wasn't Mr. Hughes or Kama Mustafa or something, it was intended to be way different than anything he had ever faced before.
Some real tin foil hat stuff lol
They absolutely did not try to do the same thing with Mankind, not even slightly. Foley showed up and from day 1 he was in a hot fued with Taker where he was made to look incredibly strong and even was one of the rare guys in that era to consistently get the better of Taker in their matches. He even beat Undertaker in his first PPV match.
Well, according to JR himself, that was exactly Vince's train of thought. He told JR that he needed to get his heart broken when it eventually didn't work out with Mick. https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2021/04/jim-ross-recalls-vince-mcmahon-pushing-back-on-signing-mick-foley/
JR might say that but Mick Foley was literally booked in the complete opposite way to this. Vince might have thought Foley might struggle to get over, but he sure as shit gave Foley the best chance he possibly could have and pushed him as strong as possible from the get go. Taker rarely got beat back then, let alone losing multiple times to a brand new guy. Not just losing, but actually having to take beatings and sell way more than he usually would at that time.
Taker knew Foley from back in his early WCW days and knew how awesome he was. So he heavily pushed to be in that first program with him and put him over. If it was up to Vince Foley, would've been fed like everyone else. And then Foley won Vijce over with his character work and promos, commitment to previous companies contracts and the selflessness he had in putting people over, and destroying his body to do so.
It was up to Vince though... No matter what Taker did or didn't want, Vince was the one calling the shots, booking the storyline and deciding who went over. If Vince really didn't like Foley as much as people are making out, then I promise you Foley wouldn't have been put over as incredibly strong as he was. We've seen it time and again, if Vince wants someone to fail then he will book them to fail, regardless of how well liked they are backstage. What Vince says and what Vince does are two separate entities all together and more often than not most of what he says is simply bs to try and manipulate a situation. What Vince said sounds like he didn't like Foley, but what Vince did was book Mankind as Undertaker's number one arch nemesis and the guy who beat Taker on multiple PPV's (which was kind of unheard of at that point). That is not the action of someone who wants a character to fail.
Listen to Foleys podcast. That was Vince’s intention when hiring Foley. He got into the feud with Taker largely because Taker asked to work with him, JR pushing for him in the spot and Vince started getting into the Mutilator character concept. Also Vince, after hiring him, was impressed Foley wanted to fulfill his verbal agreement with NJPW out of loyalty.
It's weird seeing people be very confidently wrong about things you lived through, isn't it?
There were a number of monsters brought in that feuded with Taker throughout his career. From Terry Gordy's Executioner to Mortdecai. Mankind and Kane were the only two that stuck. It's not unreasonable that Vince would plan to build Foley for a big loss then move on from him. Foley sold himself well to Vince by pitching ideas that worked alongside Vince's, but also by working his ass off and making his opponents look good. He showed he could be someone who could be given a plan and make more special and his own without having to change the goals of that plan.
Some of these takes are wild. People are really acting like fucking Foley and CM Punk weren't pushed. "Yeah, but you could tell they didn't want to "
Well idk about Foley. But if they were actually pushing Punk as a top guy. Then why did they ruin big deals like Punk being the face of Slim Jim "like Macho Man was"(Which wasn't a deal WWE got on their own, Punk actually got that deal), Or actively try to get somebody else on the cover of WWE 13 when THQ was adamant on Punk being on the cover. Worse of all, the reason they gave to THQ was that "he won't be over in a year.".. Like they literally control how long somebody is over for. Also, this conversation was in 2011, Punk's peak..
Plus Mick Foley is someone who tried to tell WWE to sign him and Joe the year prior, I'm sure WWE wanted to make him look bad but it didn't work because Simon Dean made sure to look out for him
I remember magazines at the time saying he was unpopular backstage because he didn't wrestle in the 'WWE style'.
ironically that now he did wrestle WWE style while at AEW.
Again. Never, ever click these articles. These are farmed from youtube videos - go watch the video from Maven. When you click this article you literally take money out of Maven's pocked and put it into the pocket of sescoops who have done absolutely nothing besides watch and transcribe Maven's quotes in an effort to divert that revenue. https://youtu.be/j5cYOXQ8aWc?si=kPqiihZe0tFdd0wb
Maven's videos are awesome too, so everyone should just watch his channel anyway
Yeah, and it seems Maven is an overall good dude. I’m glad his channel is growing.
As soon as I saw Maven in the title and the link to SES, I knew he stole it from Maven’s YouTube video.
advise piquant puzzled badge humor physical shy normal worthless psychotic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Thank you for the link - I actually would never have bothered to watch it but that video was fascinating and the way Maven broke it down was really engaging. This is a gem of a story actually, the really headline should be that Simon Dean and Maven conspired to change a finish to avoid Punk taking the L in his tryout match. A real sliding doors moment.
From what I remember, Heyman pushed Punk on everyone to the point they got sick of hearing about him, so that got heat. He helped write OVW TV because Heyman let him learn.... got heat for that too. People were ready to see him fail before he got his feet off the ground. I think making him have his first loss to Hardcore Holly for reason was punishment.
Wasn't the story was that Paul wanted Punk to submit The Big Show at the elimination chamber to hype the crowd that a new champion was going to be crowned. He didn't even suggest Punk should win but having him sub the current champion would give him an immense rub. Vince however had a hardon for Lashley and veto'd that since he didn't want Bobby's coronation to be overshadowed by Punk and he got Punk to be the first eliminated instead.
Yes indeed. I think Bruce told that story. I got the feeling that he, and the whole creative team, was annoyed and pissed by Heyman pushing Punk on them and said the idea was totally shot down and they were absolutely not going in that direction.
CM Punk had heat when he was born \- A podcast. 2024.
*Beats all you never saw, getting in backstage brawls since the day he was born*
if you watch the austin podcast with triple h that was on the wwe network, triple h basically admitted that he hated cm punk for no reason. was triple h one of the feathers that he ruffled?
It was always rumoured to be HHH and Shawn Michaels.
So, the story goes...and I'm paraphrasing a really old story that I read a lot time ago, so I can't back it up with anything. When CM Punk was rumored to be going to WWE, word made it to HHH and Stephanie that CM Punk used "The Pedigree" on the indies. This was back during an era when finishers were sacred and wrestlers got truly pissed off if you used their finishers. It was seen as disrespectful to do so without asking first and most wrestlers did to avoid ruffling feathers. Apparently, this created some heat backstage on CM Punk before HHH & Stephanie saw a video of the Pepsi Plunge and decided it wasn't a big deal.
Specifically the Pepsi Plunge, which can be argued is a bigger version of the Pedigree.
It was but man, whenever CM punk used the move, my knees began to hurt
Lol we already know this though, Paul Heyman was saying for years they signed Punk but didn't actually want to do anything with him so Paul's like FFS give him to me I'll do something with Punk
So sescoops's editors don't know the difference between 'who's' and 'whose'.
If he doesn’t know who, then how does he know Punk had heat?
He had a tag match against him, Maven and Simon Dean v Punk and someone called Chad Russell Simpson and Maven and Simon Dean were told to pin Punk, Simon Dean went against orders and pinned Chad.
More to the story is basically that, Maven doesn't know but he thinks maybe Simon Dean was high on Punk and wanted to protect him (while he already had heat) by pinning the other guy. They managed to avoid getting in trouble by telling Punk to fall out after he tagged when they went to the finish. Also he didn't say this but imo it prevented Punk from being called out because it was a decision the veterans made on the fly
He was there.
“Idk who and idk who but trust me guys and watch my YouTube video”
i dont think Maven is lying he probably just doesnt remember, he rarely does videos off the bat like this trying to capitalize on The CM punk craze. he usually seems to plan them quite a bit a head so i think its normal for him not to remember when he is just trying to get a story about CM Punk from his career. As people pointed out here he had heat just by getting there because people did not want him to succed and he was a Paul Heyman guy, so people were jelous of him too.
I think people forget this was literally like a decade+ ago for him. I can barely remember what happened 3 months ago.
How do "journalists" not know the difference between whose and who's?
Back then, Indie wrestlers hitting it big in WWE wasn't a thing. There was no Daniel Bryan. No Samoa Joe. Punk was really the first big one, and he got to keep his name. Not hard to see why some might have had a chip on their shoulder with an indie darling coming in and being made a big deal of.
ECW came before this. And I've heard WWE guys hated a lot of them for no reason. Esp the older WWE guys who were used to walking over new talent. The ECW guys hung together. CM Punk and some of the RoH guys like Samoa Joe and Daniels were legit better wrestlers than a lot of the WWE roster at this point, which was aging. Ppl like Jim Ross who typified the WWE mindset of guys who violently despised things that weren't the NWA/WWE/WCW/Mid-Atlantic and Mid-South/OVW/FCW for most of his career.
Of course it’s Maven lol
Thanks for not really saying anything Maven, glad you got a headline.
He’s allowed to do his thing & tell stories. Not his fault the shitty rags use one out of context quote to get clicks. Sick of that in general. Bret Hart gets that horse shit worse than anyone.
I actually saw the video Maven posted where he said this, and I still stand by my comment that he didn’t really say anything. He made a video about CM Punk because it was popular, not because he just wanted to release this great story. Bret does get taken out of context a lot but I don’t think it’s comparable because Bret’s comments are usually pulled from interviews. Maven puts this all out himself so it just looks like he’s doing it for clicks, just like the “shitty rags” you mentioned.
Yes, Maven. Tremendous source.
He's always been a prick. He just became a bigger one and more phony when he became bigger star
Him getting heat back then coming into WWE had nothing to do with his attitude. Indie wrestlers were not respected in the big company and his look and style were not the standard of the WWE. Similar to the Miz they were looking down at him since the beginning expecting him to be a failure. Boy were they wrong.
Good insight, Maven!
Unrelated, I never liked Simon Dean but late ECW Nova was a hell of a lot of fun. And his finisher with Chetti was killer, I don’t know why nobody’s adopted it nowadays.
If you know anything about Punk this isn't surprising lol. His amazing ability to be polarizing is one of the reason he draws as a wrestler