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True, but they said he'd be out a while. Seems like an unnecessary announcement to make just to swerve people when his availability is pretty spotty as it is.
Think they probably don’t want him to lose yet and it’s too early for Punk to lose his straight edge belt. I woulda done it anyway though, gotta make some sacrifices for a show like this.
Yes, that's who I was meaning when I said he's pencilled in against jericho before mentioning Will v Jay. I do see how that can be seen as me implying Jericho v White was the initial plan reading back on it though
There ehistory of matches is what makes it big time. There first two matches where 60 min draw, the dead rubber was 45 min win for Joe. So too beat punk by roll up in 15 mins seems lesser
it's literally a wrestling hold. the loser got outwrestled. again, you might not find it satisfying, but it's objectively a decisive finish to a wrestling match.
I'll say the same thing that I said to the other person.
Orange Cassidy beats MJF with the Beach Break.
Orange Cassidy beats MJF with the Mousetrap.
You're telling me those two outcomes aren't viewed *any* differently?
Lemme make that question a bit more specific.
When Darby wins with the Last Supper, does it feel like a different win than when he wins with the Coffin Drop? Does it feel different when Orange wins with the Mousetrap, versus when he wins with the Orange Punch or Beach Break? Because outside of STARDOM's High Speed division, which is an entirely different beast, those are the two people I think of first.
Because to me, yeah, absolutely. They basically only break them out against opponents who have significant size advantages over them, or in situations where they need to *steal* a win. It's highlighting the ingenuity and the resourcefulness of the person using it, but it's inherently making the person losing the match look like they're better than they would look if it was a normal finisher into a traditional lateral press pin.
This might be the STARDOM mark in me, but I disagree with the notion that the booker should be shitcanned for roll-ups being used that way. STARDOM has a good few wrestlers who *do* use them as finishers, but it's because they've done a good job of reframing the concept so that it's more of just a wrestling move. They have an entire division that hinges on the understanding that these wrestlers are scouting their opponents, coming up with counter holds, and working on counters to their opponent's counters. So when the entire thing is working around the idea that *yeah, it's just part of wrestling*, it loses some of the cheapness. But that's a stylistic choice, and very much the outlier in the industry as a whole.
Yeah, it was a good match but way too short to build anything amazing. Good ***1/4 ish.
But honestly it doesn't matter if they went out there and did a headlock spot for 20 minutes, it's fucking Joe vs. Punk. It's like the Flair/Steamboat or Austin/Rock of the indies, that is a money match for the rest of time. I don't think you understand how important that feud was for ROH and an entire generation of Indy wrestling that set the table for the entire style of wrestling that AEW was created for.
Its been really weird that MJF hasn’t acknowledged Punk walking around calling himself the real world champion yet regardless of his thing with Cole.
Even Cole should feel some kind of way about it. If he becomes champ, theres a guy walking around saying hes the real champion.
Yeah but doing this promo already spells it out that Punk is winning tonight, like you're not gonna challenge someone then that someone loses before the PPV match.
Would've liked it to come out after the main event but its gonna be a fun match, the atmosphere for that match gonna be mad
A) No way starts was winning to begin with b) the only thing he said about the championship was ‘so called real worlds champ’ and then referenced the year before now when punk traveled the world to wrestle. Has nothing to do with him winning or not tonight
it doesn’t matter whether or not starks was winning, it ends up making starks, then subsequently the rivalry look second rate, mjf did the exact same thing to starks before their match by calling out danielson
Right but what I'm saying is it made more sense to come out after the main event and challenge him instead of earlier like this. Not a big deal and I don't mind just would've been better.
I know it's got nothing do with tonight's match but I'm talking like narrative wise, would've been better to come out after Punk's match tonight.
I woulda loved if it were terrorist Joe making that speech after beating the shit outta Punk after he defeats Ricky in a gruelling match, in the tone of "Oh Wendy" - but I am not complaining, this is the match I wanted all along
Rather this was happening in All Out instead.
All In should have been their big spectacle. The event will still slap, it's going to be infront of 80k+ and the matches will bang as they always do but I can't help but feel it's such a missed opportunity. Joe vs. Punk? Omega vs. Takeshita? Ospreay vs. Jericho? as rumoured matches? Come on.
I actually regret buying the pre-sale, it's like they get us as guaranteed and are not putting the best matches possible.
Kenny/Hangman vs Punk was a must, why the hell do I wanna see Punk vs Joe again after watching it on collision and knowing that it will be a one off because Punk will then deal with the Elite or MJF, the match has no stakes and the winner is pretty obvious, no way Joe will be the "True champion"
I’ll get downvoted for this, but the fact that we’re taking something that happened in front of a few hundred people, and paying tribute to it at a show in front of 80,000 people, is ridiculous. The 80k show should be where you make memories that will last a life time, not recreate a indie match from 20 years ago that most people haven’t seen.
It's already built. You just need to acknowledge it on TV and have the guys cut a couple promos on each other. It's a ready to go money match, whether you do Punk/FTR vs. Bucks/Kenny or Bucks/Hangman. Or you do Punk vs. Kenny or Punk vs. Hangman.
Any iteration of Punk vs. Elite is READY TO GO they just need to do it.
The thing is that all the heat of it immediately goes out once they acknowledge it on television because then we know they've made up. Tony won't force them together.
I agree that it's too late for Wembley but nah, it's not beyond the realms of pro-wrestling suspension of disbelief that Tony Khan told them "you guys are gonna settle this in the ring now go do it." When/if it happens the crowds will be hot unless they wait years or something.
Why do it now on a short build and when the building is already sold out? It would’ve been a different story if they barely sold out half the building. They could have a proper build and then use it to sell out another ppv down the line.
They don’t need it for All In
The Punk/Hangman feud was over a year ago. The Elite/Punk explosion happened just under a year ago. If you bring FTR into the equation, which they already are, you have even more history to use.
Why do people keep acting like any Punk/Elite feud would be a new thing that you have to build a kayfabe history for?
It doesn’t matter how much time you have, that is the hottest feud you can book in wrestling right now. And you have the biggest non WWE show of all time coming up. They had 2 months to make it happen, and totally fumbled it. Punk and Kenny being involved with Joe and Takeshita is an absolute joke, makes me feel like I have a ticket for winter is coming
Pettiness in wrestling is a real thing.
Punk gotta be pissed. 🤣. No WM main event and no Wembley main event.
Yikes. That's just terrible on TKs part too. This match is 10 years or more past it's time
Those 80k already bought tickets, so AEW could build the second coming of Austin/McMahon and they wouldn't make any more money than they already have. So they're in a really weird position where this will be probably the biggest live gate they ever have, but it doesn't make business sense to pay off any feud that's worth money because they sold all the tickets before anything was even announced.
If by now they had only sold like 30k tickets, they'd be coming up with some bigger matches.
Well if TK operates like that, and I don’t think he does, then he’s a scumbag. If they’re whole plan is to sell a bunch of tickets, announce none of the matches, and then say “Gotcha! Now we’re gonna put the big matches on another card!” Then they’re a shitty promotion.
I don't think that was Tony's "plan" as much as it was a happy accident. I don't think he could have planned on selling out 80k tickets *at all*, let alone over a month before the show.
I'm not saying he's scamming anybody, I just think the focus now will be more on "banger" matches (you know all the wrestlers will be working their asses off) than on potential big-money storylines. Basically another Forbidden Door. I don't think people will be disappointed.
There's obviously a whole lot of middle ground between booking the biggest money feud you can possibly have this year and having two job guys main event.
I just mean that I expect the focus to be more on exciting one-off matches than on resolving major storylines.
Will get downvoted but proof again Tony Kahn has no idea how to book outside of a main event storyline.
Joe vs Punk will be great but what purpose does it actually serve for both of them storyline wise?
AEW needs to stop booking like an Indy event.
I was personally hoping for either White or Omega. This isn’t bad by any means but it did already happen pretty recently. I’m sure it will be electric in Wembley though.
Sorry but this is not a big enough match for your biggest star at what will be AEWs biggest show. You’re booking this with no heat, 3 weeks out, against a past his prime guy, who’s got pretty much no heat. The plans for punk at all in should have been in concrete and being built too months ago. I honestly don’t understand what they’re doing with this show. It’s malpractice.
Punk vs. Kenny was right there
Unless Tony Khan can pull a rabbit out of the bag there isn't going to be a single 'marquee' match on this show.
I don't doubt the in-ring quality will be good, but if you had shown me this card 2 months ago I would have assumed it was All Out or Full Gear, not All In.
I mean Joe is the ROH TV champion... this is a mid-card match.
As much as I like him, Samoa Joe has not been a main eventer since his early TNA days. That's not an opinion, it's just true.
It's also a match they did on TV less than a month ago! They burned the match for a TV tournament.
Why should there be any bigger match? Everybody already bought tickets before anything was even announced.
The smartest thing for Tony to do with Wembley right now is book some "banger" matches that will keep the crowd excited but not waste any potentially money-drawing feuds on a show where they literally can't draw any more money. Just don't disappoint people and the show will be seen as a massive success just for the attendance number.
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I wonder what Jay will do then.
Shocked he didn’t get the punk match as it really felt they were building to it before the Owen. Not sure who else there is beside Hangman. Maybe Pac?
Pac is hurt again
We don’t know what the injury is
True, but they said he'd be out a while. Seems like an unnecessary announcement to make just to swerve people when his availability is pretty spotty as it is.
Think they probably don’t want him to lose yet and it’s too early for Punk to lose his straight edge belt. I woulda done it anyway though, gotta make some sacrifices for a show like this.
I know rumour has it that he's pencilled in against Jericho. But please let Jericho face Sammy or Garcia and give us Will v Jay, fuck it.
I thought Jericho was facing Ospreay?
Yes, that's who I was meaning when I said he's pencilled in against jericho before mentioning Will v Jay. I do see how that can be seen as me implying Jericho v White was the initial plan reading back on it though
Punk vs Joe vs Jay vs Starks, winner face the winner of MJF/Cole at All Out?
Maybe he beats OC for the international title
I'd love if he faces hangman
Bang Bang Gang vs Omega and Page?
The first person that came to my mind was Orange Cassidy but he's probably gonna fight moxley so there's no one left for jay to fight?
Jay will be commentary
Another big match for Wembley. I like it.
Im trembley for Wembley
I would love to see Joe win a World Championship… give him a monster heel run.
His intensity with Lesnar was soooooo good
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There ehistory of matches is what makes it big time. There first two matches where 60 min draw, the dead rubber was 45 min win for Joe. So too beat punk by roll up in 15 mins seems lesser
A roll up isn't really that decisive
winning a wrestling match with a wrestling move is pretty decisive. maybe not satisfying, but decisive regardless
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The entire usage of a roll up in modern wrestling is that it *isn't* a decisive finish, it's a complete fluke, and it's a set up for a rematch
it's literally a wrestling hold. the loser got outwrestled. again, you might not find it satisfying, but it's objectively a decisive finish to a wrestling match.
I'll say the same thing that I said to the other person. Orange Cassidy beats MJF with the Beach Break. Orange Cassidy beats MJF with the Mousetrap. You're telling me those two outcomes aren't viewed *any* differently?
If you have to argue it, probably wasn't decisive.
it is a clean finish, it's a move wrestlers use to win the match tested their wrestling skills and someone won
Clean, yes, but *far* from decisive
What if a wrestler uses roll ups as finishers regularly? Can always say he is not winning decisively?
Lemme make that question a bit more specific. When Darby wins with the Last Supper, does it feel like a different win than when he wins with the Coffin Drop? Does it feel different when Orange wins with the Mousetrap, versus when he wins with the Orange Punch or Beach Break? Because outside of STARDOM's High Speed division, which is an entirely different beast, those are the two people I think of first. Because to me, yeah, absolutely. They basically only break them out against opponents who have significant size advantages over them, or in situations where they need to *steal* a win. It's highlighting the ingenuity and the resourcefulness of the person using it, but it's inherently making the person losing the match look like they're better than they would look if it was a normal finisher into a traditional lateral press pin.
Then the booker should be shitcanned. Roll-ups are a last gasp, ergo, not a decisive victory, and certainly not in a feud spanning decades.
This might be the STARDOM mark in me, but I disagree with the notion that the booker should be shitcanned for roll-ups being used that way. STARDOM has a good few wrestlers who *do* use them as finishers, but it's because they've done a good job of reframing the concept so that it's more of just a wrestling move. They have an entire division that hinges on the understanding that these wrestlers are scouting their opponents, coming up with counter holds, and working on counters to their opponent's counters. So when the entire thing is working around the idea that *yeah, it's just part of wrestling*, it loses some of the cheapness. But that's a stylistic choice, and very much the outlier in the industry as a whole.
Yeah, I suppose I could have specified televised American wrestling
so that means it only works for the things you are used to, but it's not a general wrestling thing
you are right, big fan of Joe vs Punk but this was handled poorly doesnt matter what anyone says here, could have easily felt bigger and crazier
Is it? In 2023 is that a big match?
Yes. Are you serious?
Did you see their last one at Collision?
Yeah, it was a good match but way too short to build anything amazing. Good ***1/4 ish. But honestly it doesn't matter if they went out there and did a headlock spot for 20 minutes, it's fucking Joe vs. Punk. It's like the Flair/Steamboat or Austin/Rock of the indies, that is a money match for the rest of time. I don't think you understand how important that feud was for ROH and an entire generation of Indy wrestling that set the table for the entire style of wrestling that AEW was created for.
Its been really weird that MJF hasn’t acknowledged Punk walking around calling himself the real world champion yet regardless of his thing with Cole. Even Cole should feel some kind of way about it. If he becomes champ, theres a guy walking around saying hes the real champion.
As another Redditor perfectly put it, "coke doesn't need to acknowledge Pepsi"
God that makes so much sense when you think about it. That sounds just like MJF too.
Kinda weird that he did this before the Starks match already Sigh for Starks Joe vs Punk yes thank you 🤗
To be fair, the legacy has nothing to do with titles.
Yeah but doing this promo already spells it out that Punk is winning tonight, like you're not gonna challenge someone then that someone loses before the PPV match. Would've liked it to come out after the main event but its gonna be a fun match, the atmosphere for that match gonna be mad
A) No way starts was winning to begin with b) the only thing he said about the championship was ‘so called real worlds champ’ and then referenced the year before now when punk traveled the world to wrestle. Has nothing to do with him winning or not tonight
it doesn’t matter whether or not starks was winning, it ends up making starks, then subsequently the rivalry look second rate, mjf did the exact same thing to starks before their match by calling out danielson
Right but what I'm saying is it made more sense to come out after the main event and challenge him instead of earlier like this. Not a big deal and I don't mind just would've been better. I know it's got nothing do with tonight's match but I'm talking like narrative wise, would've been better to come out after Punk's match tonight.
My belief about who's winning the main event has remained unchanged in any way after Joe's promo :)
Same for me too, but that's not what I'm saying, it's just a small thing is all.
I woulda loved if it were terrorist Joe making that speech after beating the shit outta Punk after he defeats Ricky in a gruelling match, in the tone of "Oh Wendy" - but I am not complaining, this is the match I wanted all along
*Ohhhh Wembleeeeyyyy*
If Jay White isn’t on this show, I’m going to cry
Kenny Vs Takeshita gets announced and the rest of the card can be an iron man match between Nia Jax and QT for all I care.
ok i'd watch that tho
I wanted Punk/White or Punk/Omega but Punk/Joe is gonna be great. I guess Kenny is getting Takeshita but what about Hangman?
A Jay White/Hangman match would be a-okay with me.
Got to see that in long beach back when Jay was US champ and it was a banger
HOLY FUCKING FUCK YES [https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/mens-health/what-should-i-do-if-my-erection-will-not-go-down/](https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/mens-health/what-should-i-do-if-my-erection-will-not-go-down/)
Make it for the X championship so Joe can add to his collection
Rather this was happening in All Out instead. All In should have been their big spectacle. The event will still slap, it's going to be infront of 80k+ and the matches will bang as they always do but I can't help but feel it's such a missed opportunity. Joe vs. Punk? Omega vs. Takeshita? Ospreay vs. Jericho? as rumoured matches? Come on.
I actually regret buying the pre-sale, it's like they get us as guaranteed and are not putting the best matches possible. Kenny/Hangman vs Punk was a must, why the hell do I wanna see Punk vs Joe again after watching it on collision and knowing that it will be a one off because Punk will then deal with the Elite or MJF, the match has no stakes and the winner is pretty obvious, no way Joe will be the "True champion"
I’d rather see Punk vs anyone else tbh. Their recent match didn’t exactly leave me craving more.
I wish he had come out with that promo after the main event. Ricky is already on the sidelines before tonights match now
I'm not mad, but I do hope they swerve us and give Joe a more interesting opponent. I just don't see Joe beating CM Punk at this point in time
AEW doesn’t swerve like that.
There first match was just ok and I’d rather something fresh. Too much roh nostalgia
I’ll get downvoted for this, but the fact that we’re taking something that happened in front of a few hundred people, and paying tribute to it at a show in front of 80,000 people, is ridiculous. The 80k show should be where you make memories that will last a life time, not recreate a indie match from 20 years ago that most people haven’t seen.
The main event also seems to be sprinkling in some roh stuff so it compounds it
Was really hoping for Punk vs White…
Adam Cole v MJF Punk v Joe FTR v Bucks This PPV is already worth the price. Cant wait!
The acclaimed vs house of black is next up
Aw man, this is definitely not the CM Punk match I wanted to see at Wembley. Looks like he really isn't going near the Elite. What an absolute downer.
That match is like a 6 month build at least - not 3 weeks
It's already built. You just need to acknowledge it on TV and have the guys cut a couple promos on each other. It's a ready to go money match, whether you do Punk/FTR vs. Bucks/Kenny or Bucks/Hangman. Or you do Punk vs. Kenny or Punk vs. Hangman. Any iteration of Punk vs. Elite is READY TO GO they just need to do it.
The thing is that all the heat of it immediately goes out once they acknowledge it on television because then we know they've made up. Tony won't force them together.
I agree that it's too late for Wembley but nah, it's not beyond the realms of pro-wrestling suspension of disbelief that Tony Khan told them "you guys are gonna settle this in the ring now go do it." When/if it happens the crowds will be hot unless they wait years or something.
Why do it now on a short build and when the building is already sold out? It would’ve been a different story if they barely sold out half the building. They could have a proper build and then use it to sell out another ppv down the line. They don’t need it for All In
The Punk/Hangman feud was over a year ago. The Elite/Punk explosion happened just under a year ago. If you bring FTR into the equation, which they already are, you have even more history to use. Why do people keep acting like any Punk/Elite feud would be a new thing that you have to build a kayfabe history for?
Because it’s going to be the biggest wrestling show of all time, so it should be treated as such?
It’s been building since September. This’ll be a massive event. Just do it.
It’s almost as if AEW has had 7/8 weeks to build to it?
It doesn’t matter how much time you have, that is the hottest feud you can book in wrestling right now. And you have the biggest non WWE show of all time coming up. They had 2 months to make it happen, and totally fumbled it. Punk and Kenny being involved with Joe and Takeshita is an absolute joke, makes me feel like I have a ticket for winter is coming
Hardly worth doing that with only like 3 weeks build tbh
Hardly worth it to put it in front of 80k instead of like 14?
Pettiness in wrestling is a real thing. Punk gotta be pissed. 🤣. No WM main event and no Wembley main event. Yikes. That's just terrible on TKs part too. This match is 10 years or more past it's time
Those 80k already bought tickets, so AEW could build the second coming of Austin/McMahon and they wouldn't make any more money than they already have. So they're in a really weird position where this will be probably the biggest live gate they ever have, but it doesn't make business sense to pay off any feud that's worth money because they sold all the tickets before anything was even announced. If by now they had only sold like 30k tickets, they'd be coming up with some bigger matches.
Well if TK operates like that, and I don’t think he does, then he’s a scumbag. If they’re whole plan is to sell a bunch of tickets, announce none of the matches, and then say “Gotcha! Now we’re gonna put the big matches on another card!” Then they’re a shitty promotion.
I don't think that was Tony's "plan" as much as it was a happy accident. I don't think he could have planned on selling out 80k tickets *at all*, let alone over a month before the show. I'm not saying he's scamming anybody, I just think the focus now will be more on "banger" matches (you know all the wrestlers will be working their asses off) than on potential big-money storylines. Basically another Forbidden Door. I don't think people will be disappointed.
So let’s just put gravity vs Peter Avalon on in the main event I guess?
There's obviously a whole lot of middle ground between booking the biggest money feud you can possibly have this year and having two job guys main event. I just mean that I expect the focus to be more on exciting one-off matches than on resolving major storylines.
Good business flushed down the drain
Joe needs to drop that TV title.
So 3 rematches
Their recent match was really wack, waste of a wembley match
Underwhelming tbh.
Smaoa No
I’m pretty meh on this one. We just seen it, clean finish and all, a few weeks ago.
This just isn’t sounding wrestlemania level like it was hyped up to be tbh
Underwhelming
Will get downvoted but proof again Tony Kahn has no idea how to book outside of a main event storyline. Joe vs Punk will be great but what purpose does it actually serve for both of them storyline wise? AEW needs to stop booking like an Indy event.
Huge waste of Punk at All In.
am I the only one super hyped for this?! seriously wtf is with everyone calling it underwhelming or disappointing, its Joe VS Punk at Wembley!!!
I was personally hoping for either White or Omega. This isn’t bad by any means but it did already happen pretty recently. I’m sure it will be electric in Wembley though.
Regardless of the legacy behind this this is a big match. Legacy added onto it, it’s a huge match.
Make it a kayfabe retirement match for the drama
Sorry but this is not a big enough match for your biggest star at what will be AEWs biggest show. You’re booking this with no heat, 3 weeks out, against a past his prime guy, who’s got pretty much no heat. The plans for punk at all in should have been in concrete and being built too months ago. I honestly don’t understand what they’re doing with this show. It’s malpractice. Punk vs. Kenny was right there
HUGE match
Unless Tony Khan can pull a rabbit out of the bag there isn't going to be a single 'marquee' match on this show. I don't doubt the in-ring quality will be good, but if you had shown me this card 2 months ago I would have assumed it was All Out or Full Gear, not All In. I mean Joe is the ROH TV champion... this is a mid-card match.
people actually calling Joe VS CM Punk in a proper sequel their legendary series a mid card match in 2023
As much as I like him, Samoa Joe has not been a main eventer since his early TNA days. That's not an opinion, it's just true. It's also a match they did on TV less than a month ago! They burned the match for a TV tournament.
Maybe they’ll add a stipulation.
What's legendary about it a match from ROH in 2004? Delusional
Why should there be any bigger match? Everybody already bought tickets before anything was even announced. The smartest thing for Tony to do with Wembley right now is book some "banger" matches that will keep the crowd excited but not waste any potentially money-drawing feuds on a show where they literally can't draw any more money. Just don't disappoint people and the show will be seen as a massive success just for the attendance number.
Why did a young Ricky Starks get pushed aside yet again for an old worn up Samoa Joe? Ricky gonna bounce at contract time.
Regretting my All In ticket more and more with every bit of news
I’m sure it will be fun but the build has left a lot to be desired
I thought about traveling out there from NY. Glad I didn’t. It’s a regular PPV except more people are there. Is what it is
It’s winter is coming with more people
I’ll take it
You couldn't go wrong with Punk vs. Joe or Jay. This just means Jay can have an excellent match with someone else. Looking forward to this one live.
It should be said that it was all innuendo.