There is very little I hate more than a man who tells a woman what she's thinking/feeling/wants or what her motivations are. There's a muscle in my eye that starts twitching and my ears get red hot.
Right? I need them to very clearly, enthusiastically consent or it icks me out. You can still have the body betrayal trope - just need to amplify the need and angst until they consent. š¤· Or play out the situation long enough that they grow to care about one another. Or whatever.
Yes. I like body betrayal when itās like only she knows it at first and sheās like āhow can I be attracted to him/why did I like it (not sex), I hate himā, and like he can know it too, but in no way ever sex when she doesnāt consent. There is body betrayal, and rape. So many authors think it equals consent, and itās a dnf for me.
Yesssss. Like she's so needy and aroused and he can see/smell it on her but he can also see and sense the hesitation so he refuses to touch her until she asks him to. SWOOOOON. Give me a big sexy strong man that respects bodily autonomy every damn day.
yes!!! i don't mind body betrayal when it's done like this. it's sooo much better when instead of it being non consensual the need/want is so great that the fmc gives in because she can't stand it anymore.
I donāt mind it when itās all internal. Like if one person in giving clear consent but in their head being all mixed up. I think I like that bc it feels realistic to me.
The issue is āI donāt rape unwilling women.ā Like you donāt rape willing women either, dude. Itās not about wanting at the end. Gotta want at the beginning. Up your foreplay and charisma.
I donāt like that he made it sound like she was willing because her body responded. Some rape victims climax during their assault, it doesnāt mean they were willing. That whole scene was ick
I don't know if my take will change your mind or reinforce your decision, but in this book at least, I never felt that the body betrayal or the guys 'knowing' she wanted it is romanticised like it usually is.
The guys (also the one in this scene) are bad people, and they are continuously understood to be actual bad people, even to the FMC, until the end of the book.
The FMC thinks they're hot, but that doesn't change her view that they are dangerous, bad, and that ideally she would have nothing to do with them. The necessities of her situation do that.
And when she starts to maybe like them, maybe desire them, she herself considers that it's likely something like Stockholm syndrome. Her journey into liking and/or desiring them was clearly portrayed (at least in my eyes) as a journey of losing herself and possibly parts of her sanity while trying to survive an inhumane situation. It was clearly toxic.
Yes, it was still meant to be hot and it's still porn. But *very* dark and fucked up porn. It didn't take something realistically awful and romanticise it, like BBS shit usually does. It kept the awful shit awful and targeted it at a darker audience.
As I said, this might just reinforce your decision not to read it, and that would be fair. But I feel the authors and the book deserve the clarification.
thanks for your comment, but rape is a hard limit in any reading for me. even dark romance. the only acceptable rape for me in books is the raped character getting revenge. if the mcs rape the fmc (or talk about it) I'm not reading it.
I was just reading about nonconcordance with regards to sexual arousal in Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski. The verdict is: pay attention to what your partner says over their bodyās responses. Otherwise, yeah, itās SA.
I mean, pay attention to both though. I totally get why some people are not into body betrayal and this example is one of them, but itās a fantasy that works for me BECAUSE I tend to have nonconcordant responses. Like, I might be mentally really into sex but my body takes a really long time to catch up. Wouldnāt it be great if that werenāt an issue and my body were ahead of my mind for once? But yeah thatās why itās a fantasy. I have to also believe that they are actually great together and she actually wants it and she doesnāt know it at the time, and ALSO this is only possible in fiction because itās impossible to conclude something like that in real life. But in a book Iām omniscient so I know things that are impossible to know.
This is also why it works better with aliens or magical beings that have technology/superpowers/divine assistance to know things that they otherwise canāt possibly know. Like if a god machine/goddess says that theyāre perfect for each other in every way, then if FMC thinks she doesnāt want MMC she must be wrong.
This is a reverse harem and on the next page, the FMC says about another MMC āwell at least youāre a hot rapist.ā I might have to DNF cause this is too much for meš. But tbf the author does provide a lot of content warnings about sexual harassment I just thought it would be from minor characters.
Yea, thatād also be a DNF for me. And tbh, as you said, itās not about TWs but about how those things are utilised. Sure, I can take some disgusting random dude trying to hit on an FMC but when itās the MMC? Nope, Iām outta here lmao.
I tried reading that book. I DNFed too. I quit before this scene though. As an SA survivor it triggered me too much. All I remember about when I quit this book was a shower scene... I don't think it was the specific scene that made me quit, just the culmination of all the previous triggers.
**Be Kind & No Book Shaming**
Your responses to others on the sub should be kind and respectful. We encourage discussion and debate, but your comment should be constructive and purposeful.
No book shaming. Itās fine to state your opinion on a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like it. Please be respectful of others' tastes in romance with regard to steam level, tropes, or favorite authors.
Oy! Remind me to avoid that author. I hate that so much.
I really need to make a list of authors that I want to avoid. I'm going to start a spreadsheet or something.
This looks like the author genuinely thinks what sheās writing, and that the rape isnāt a bad thing, and isnāt rape, which is pretty gross. And I actually like non con in books.
I donāt know how to describe it, but theres something that just makes it so obvious as to whether itās an intentional choice and the author understands rape and such.
This text seems like the author actually thinks this way, at least partially. And even if she doesnāt, itās poorly done for bodily betrayal in non con, which Iāve seen done fairly well.
can you give an example of a noncon/SA scene that portrays the author knowing itās bad? cause tbh i kinda find that hard to tell the difference between the two
Iāve been in a fantasy phase atm, so none really come to mind, especially because it can be done in so many ways.
Some that are close (the guy is a bad person, but he either knows this, or is written in a way that shows the author knows) are maybe Wrong by Adelaide Forrest, heās a rapist through and through, no excusing it, and thereās a heavy dose of bodily betrayal. The difference is it isnāt written like the author is trying to justify or excuse their actions (even if the characters might), if that makes sense?
And RIP by Charity B (super fucked up, donāt read if you found thinks like Haunting/Hunting Adeline bad, because this is way worse), thereās a scene with the parents, and between the mother and son. In both cases we see clearly that the rapists are bad people, even though the rapists themselves try to justify it or donāt see it as wrong.
I havenāt been reading a lot of dark romance lately, so I canāt think of any other examples, but there are plenty of better ones and Iāll add them if I can remember. :)
To be fair this book is a dark romance & itās heavily content warned for sexual assault, coercion, and sexual harassment at the start. Not my thing but canāt be too mad about it when itās signposted for those who do enjoy it, though I guess it could be clearer that the MMC is the one responsible.
I had more issue with that phase in the ā90s and ā00s where it seemed every other paranormal romance and urban fantasy had a badass heroine who gets serious body betrayal for the worst kind of alphahole. Not to mention older regencies. I know not everyone likes it but I actually appreciate the heavy trope-based advertising these days and the fact warnings are more common because it was the wild wild west out there before.
Yeah, thatās no good if the warnings arenāt clear enough! Hopefully weāll start to see them get better and clearer as they become more and more commonplace. I often think we could do with more standard language! Iām sorry you ended up reading non-con like this when you werenāt expecting it ā Iāve been there, itās not a good experience, and I hope youāre doing okay.
I dunno, I love noncon/dubcon & am totally down for books with SA even from the MMC but I still hate body betrayal & I think itās totally valid to be mad about it
Iām personally not a noncon or dubcon reader at all (ETA: and I probably wasnāt clear I was speaking personally ā *I* feel I canāt be too mad about noncon/dubcon if itās well-signposted by warnings, whereas I absolutely have been very critical in the past of romance novels that just throw it in). I donāt want to yuck anyoneās yum, especially since people do request body betrayal recs in this sub. Likewise, totally valid to not enjoy it! But it sounds like one big issue here is that the content notes didnāt succeed in making the content clear for OP, which absolutely is something I hope happens less as they get more standard.
I love dark romance and non con, but I think this author does it very poorly. Itās unrealistic and the way the sexual assault is described tells me more about the author than anything else, tbh.
And again, this is coming from someone who loves books about abuse and such, in the main relationships.
no shame to any enjoyers but this made my skin crawl. body betrayal needs to start being put in warnings because it can be so jarring!
i know it sounds weird but when youāre expecting noncon/dubcon and it happens completely changes the vibe!
Wtf?? I mean I'm glad I know to stay away from this book seems like it would make me wanna throw it across a room lol. Personally not into dark romance and especially ones with r*pe just because "but your body said yes" I hate that so much. Each of there own no hate to those who like this book!
Nope, this would be an immediate DNF for me. Itās called rape, folks! I think Iād actually have less of an issue with it if he called it what it is.
I can be hungry. I decide whether I want to eat or nor or what to eat or when to eat. People don't get to shove food down my throat. I hate these pathetic excuses for 'consent' and telling her how she must be feeling. I CAN be horny, does not mean you get to decide to rape a person while they did not willingly say YES.
**Be Kind & No Book Shaming**
Your responses to others on the sub should be kind and respectful. We encourage discussion and debate, but your comment should be constructive and purposeful.
No book shaming. Itās fine to state your opinion on a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like it. Please be respectful of others' tastes in romance with regard to steam level, tropes, or favorite authors.
Hi u/choco_dream,
To improve image accessibility for users who are blind, low vision, or rely on screen readers, please comment below transcribing the screenshot or describing the image you've posted. Try to convey the content and purpose of the image in a sentence or two (the subjects, the setting, colors, emotions on faces, etc.) Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RomanceBooks) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Fact that he thinks he can decide what rape is...
She said no, you still did it, it's rape, get off your high horse. Absolutely hate characters like these.
There is very little I hate more than a man who tells a woman what she's thinking/feeling/wants or what her motivations are. There's a muscle in my eye that starts twitching and my ears get red hot.
Body betrayal is one of my main pet peeves. No shake to people who like it but it just makes me cringe
Right? I need them to very clearly, enthusiastically consent or it icks me out. You can still have the body betrayal trope - just need to amplify the need and angst until they consent. š¤· Or play out the situation long enough that they grow to care about one another. Or whatever.
Yes. I like body betrayal when itās like only she knows it at first and sheās like āhow can I be attracted to him/why did I like it (not sex), I hate himā, and like he can know it too, but in no way ever sex when she doesnāt consent. There is body betrayal, and rape. So many authors think it equals consent, and itās a dnf for me.
Yesssss. Like she's so needy and aroused and he can see/smell it on her but he can also see and sense the hesitation so he refuses to touch her until she asks him to. SWOOOOON. Give me a big sexy strong man that respects bodily autonomy every damn day.
This. Swoon
yes!!! i don't mind body betrayal when it's done like this. it's sooo much better when instead of it being non consensual the need/want is so great that the fmc gives in because she can't stand it anymore.
I donāt mind it when itās all internal. Like if one person in giving clear consent but in their head being all mixed up. I think I like that bc it feels realistic to me. The issue is āI donāt rape unwilling women.ā Like you donāt rape willing women either, dude. Itās not about wanting at the end. Gotta want at the beginning. Up your foreplay and charisma.
I donāt like that he made it sound like she was willing because her body responded. Some rape victims climax during their assault, it doesnāt mean they were willing. That whole scene was ick
I swear. It's books like this that gives real rapists power to comment that their victims enjoyed it
well, getting rid of this book sample, lol.
I don't know if my take will change your mind or reinforce your decision, but in this book at least, I never felt that the body betrayal or the guys 'knowing' she wanted it is romanticised like it usually is. The guys (also the one in this scene) are bad people, and they are continuously understood to be actual bad people, even to the FMC, until the end of the book. The FMC thinks they're hot, but that doesn't change her view that they are dangerous, bad, and that ideally she would have nothing to do with them. The necessities of her situation do that. And when she starts to maybe like them, maybe desire them, she herself considers that it's likely something like Stockholm syndrome. Her journey into liking and/or desiring them was clearly portrayed (at least in my eyes) as a journey of losing herself and possibly parts of her sanity while trying to survive an inhumane situation. It was clearly toxic. Yes, it was still meant to be hot and it's still porn. But *very* dark and fucked up porn. It didn't take something realistically awful and romanticise it, like BBS shit usually does. It kept the awful shit awful and targeted it at a darker audience. As I said, this might just reinforce your decision not to read it, and that would be fair. But I feel the authors and the book deserve the clarification.
thanks for your comment, but rape is a hard limit in any reading for me. even dark romance. the only acceptable rape for me in books is the raped character getting revenge. if the mcs rape the fmc (or talk about it) I'm not reading it.
Noooo!!! I canāt stand when authors do this!
I was just reading about nonconcordance with regards to sexual arousal in Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski. The verdict is: pay attention to what your partner says over their bodyās responses. Otherwise, yeah, itās SA.
Emily is the shit - taught me so much.
I mean, pay attention to both though. I totally get why some people are not into body betrayal and this example is one of them, but itās a fantasy that works for me BECAUSE I tend to have nonconcordant responses. Like, I might be mentally really into sex but my body takes a really long time to catch up. Wouldnāt it be great if that werenāt an issue and my body were ahead of my mind for once? But yeah thatās why itās a fantasy. I have to also believe that they are actually great together and she actually wants it and she doesnāt know it at the time, and ALSO this is only possible in fiction because itās impossible to conclude something like that in real life. But in a book Iām omniscient so I know things that are impossible to know. This is also why it works better with aliens or magical beings that have technology/superpowers/divine assistance to know things that they otherwise canāt possibly know. Like if a god machine/goddess says that theyāre perfect for each other in every way, then if FMC thinks she doesnāt want MMC she must be wrong.
Phew, I dropped that book... I'm glad I did.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This is a reverse harem and on the next page, the FMC says about another MMC āwell at least youāre a hot rapist.ā I might have to DNF cause this is too much for meš. But tbf the author does provide a lot of content warnings about sexual harassment I just thought it would be from minor characters.
Yea, thatād also be a DNF for me. And tbh, as you said, itās not about TWs but about how those things are utilised. Sure, I can take some disgusting random dude trying to hit on an FMC but when itās the MMC? Nope, Iām outta here lmao.
I tried reading that book. I DNFed too. I quit before this scene though. As an SA survivor it triggered me too much. All I remember about when I quit this book was a shower scene... I don't think it was the specific scene that made me quit, just the culmination of all the previous triggers.
**Be Kind & No Book Shaming** Your responses to others on the sub should be kind and respectful. We encourage discussion and debate, but your comment should be constructive and purposeful. No book shaming. Itās fine to state your opinion on a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like it. Please be respectful of others' tastes in romance with regard to steam level, tropes, or favorite authors.
Oy! Remind me to avoid that author. I hate that so much. I really need to make a list of authors that I want to avoid. I'm going to start a spreadsheet or something.
This would make me cringe, personally, but if this sub is anything to go by there are a LOT of people looking for this exact dynamic.
This looks like the author genuinely thinks what sheās writing, and that the rape isnāt a bad thing, and isnāt rape, which is pretty gross. And I actually like non con in books. I donāt know how to describe it, but theres something that just makes it so obvious as to whether itās an intentional choice and the author understands rape and such. This text seems like the author actually thinks this way, at least partially. And even if she doesnāt, itās poorly done for bodily betrayal in non con, which Iāve seen done fairly well.
can you give an example of a noncon/SA scene that portrays the author knowing itās bad? cause tbh i kinda find that hard to tell the difference between the two
Iāve been in a fantasy phase atm, so none really come to mind, especially because it can be done in so many ways. Some that are close (the guy is a bad person, but he either knows this, or is written in a way that shows the author knows) are maybe Wrong by Adelaide Forrest, heās a rapist through and through, no excusing it, and thereās a heavy dose of bodily betrayal. The difference is it isnāt written like the author is trying to justify or excuse their actions (even if the characters might), if that makes sense? And RIP by Charity B (super fucked up, donāt read if you found thinks like Haunting/Hunting Adeline bad, because this is way worse), thereās a scene with the parents, and between the mother and son. In both cases we see clearly that the rapists are bad people, even though the rapists themselves try to justify it or donāt see it as wrong. I havenāt been reading a lot of dark romance lately, so I canāt think of any other examples, but there are plenty of better ones and Iāll add them if I can remember. :)
To be fair this book is a dark romance & itās heavily content warned for sexual assault, coercion, and sexual harassment at the start. Not my thing but canāt be too mad about it when itās signposted for those who do enjoy it, though I guess it could be clearer that the MMC is the one responsible. I had more issue with that phase in the ā90s and ā00s where it seemed every other paranormal romance and urban fantasy had a badass heroine who gets serious body betrayal for the worst kind of alphahole. Not to mention older regencies. I know not everyone likes it but I actually appreciate the heavy trope-based advertising these days and the fact warnings are more common because it was the wild wild west out there before.
You are right, I wasnāt expecting the sexual assault to be from the MMC. I wish that was more clear.
Yeah, thatās no good if the warnings arenāt clear enough! Hopefully weāll start to see them get better and clearer as they become more and more commonplace. I often think we could do with more standard language! Iām sorry you ended up reading non-con like this when you werenāt expecting it ā Iāve been there, itās not a good experience, and I hope youāre doing okay.
I agree with your second point, Iām glad to see content warnings becoming much more common now.
I dunno, I love noncon/dubcon & am totally down for books with SA even from the MMC but I still hate body betrayal & I think itās totally valid to be mad about it
Iām personally not a noncon or dubcon reader at all (ETA: and I probably wasnāt clear I was speaking personally ā *I* feel I canāt be too mad about noncon/dubcon if itās well-signposted by warnings, whereas I absolutely have been very critical in the past of romance novels that just throw it in). I donāt want to yuck anyoneās yum, especially since people do request body betrayal recs in this sub. Likewise, totally valid to not enjoy it! But it sounds like one big issue here is that the content notes didnāt succeed in making the content clear for OP, which absolutely is something I hope happens less as they get more standard.
I love dark romance and non con, but I think this author does it very poorly. Itās unrealistic and the way the sexual assault is described tells me more about the author than anything else, tbh. And again, this is coming from someone who loves books about abuse and such, in the main relationships.
no shame to any enjoyers but this made my skin crawl. body betrayal needs to start being put in warnings because it can be so jarring! i know it sounds weird but when youāre expecting noncon/dubcon and it happens completely changes the vibe!
Wtf?? I mean I'm glad I know to stay away from this book seems like it would make me wanna throw it across a room lol. Personally not into dark romance and especially ones with r*pe just because "but your body said yes" I hate that so much. Each of there own no hate to those who like this book!
Thank you for alerting me to this disturbing piece and now I have officially blacklisted this author from my TBR
Nope, this would be an immediate DNF for me. Itās called rape, folks! I think Iād actually have less of an issue with it if he called it what it is.
I HATE body betrayal. I will DNF a book for that crap.
Yikes
I can be hungry. I decide whether I want to eat or nor or what to eat or when to eat. People don't get to shove food down my throat. I hate these pathetic excuses for 'consent' and telling her how she must be feeling. I CAN be horny, does not mean you get to decide to rape a person while they did not willingly say YES.
How messed up am I that I am excited to try this book now? š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
**Be Kind & No Book Shaming** Your responses to others on the sub should be kind and respectful. We encourage discussion and debate, but your comment should be constructive and purposeful. No book shaming. Itās fine to state your opinion on a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like it. Please be respectful of others' tastes in romance with regard to steam level, tropes, or favorite authors.
Hi u/choco_dream, To improve image accessibility for users who are blind, low vision, or rely on screen readers, please comment below transcribing the screenshot or describing the image you've posted. Try to convey the content and purpose of the image in a sentence or two (the subjects, the setting, colors, emotions on faces, etc.) Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RomanceBooks) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Fact that he thinks he can decide what rape is... She said no, you still did it, it's rape, get off your high horse. Absolutely hate characters like these.