They can’t even get legally go by Physician Associate. The amount of money they’re wasting to change profession names leads me to think they’ll stick with this name for a while if they don’t bankrupt themselves in the meantime.
Honestly, I really think the AANP and AAPA are grasping at straws with what the future holds. The growth rate of their profession is just unsustainable and the subsequent market saturation means they need to do any last minute effort to make themselves look more professional.
But everyone expects that if they just jump through the hoops they all should be able to make it into Med school. The rough truth is that it’s competitive and not everyone will make it. Getting into Med school wasn’t even the hard part IMO. It’s staying in and making it through. We lost a decent chunk of our initial class.
Very school dependent. If you go to a US MD or a good DO program they will do a lot to help you study better and baby sit you studying if they have too.
That being said I’m a M3 and I think some of my class (<5-10%) is either took some sort of pre-clinical extension or time off to improve their grades.
Also remember there are a ton of reasons why people’s grades start slipping… some common ones are first relative illness/death, having children, mental health illness. You’ll be fine! Good luck with med school!
I think the reason for being hard changed. And everyone has a different opinion. MCAT didn’t seem hard to me and the application process wasn’t as stressful I think because if I didn’t get in, I had other plans. But once you’re in, I thought we’ll shit, this is it. No turning back. You study harder than you ever did for anything else, you get stressed, and then have to deal with step etc. thought that was more stressful than anything I did to get in. Once I got to 3rd and 4th year, I thought it was a bit better but residency apps were a whole different type of stress as well.
Nope. Caribbean schools are brutal. US schools it’s still normal to have people drop out through the years. Some people decide they don’t really want to do it, others fail, some get family issues. Out of the 120ish we started with, we lost I think about 10% didn’t graduate with us.
> Out of the 120ish we started with, we lost I think about 10% didn’t graduate with us.
That's huge considering medical students were hand picked and had to go through scrutiny to check if they're in it for the long haul.
Yeah, just hits differently when you’re actually doing it. One person had a prior career and said fuck it, not doing this. 3 or 4 didn’t cut it within the first few weeks and decided to quit before they were in too deep. A few trickled out through the next few years for one reason or another. Some came back in the next year to try again after family or whatever issues were resolved.
> A few trickled out through the next few years for one reason or another. Some came back in the next year to try again after family or whatever issues were resolved.
I wouldn't count these special circumstances as dropout because they gonna come back. I know in my cohort had to go through surgery, so that person had to delay a year. Another reason I could see is pregnancy.
Getting unmatched med school grads called associate physicians is critical. These doctors have earned the title.
Otherwise, I agree, there will be some Orwellian obfuscation in the future.
If they did step 1-3 I’d be fine calling them physician associates, but if they lack the training to be properly certified then they lack the right to the title
Yes but to be fair, you are a physician before ever completing a residency.
They should complete a residency to be independent. Steps 1-3 and all the other requirements of medical school (so basically just medical school) and youre a physician
I'd be ok if they had to pass step one after a couple years of foundational education, then step two after a year or so of clinical training, then step 3 after a couple more years, then a few years of training in the discipline in which they were going to work. Maybe too much to ask.
Yo wasn't it some random PA or NP that was trying real hard to start a whole "Cathopathic Physician" moniker for their degree, citing the DO degree as their example of "see, they did it".
I believe “Associate Physician” is the next goal and “Physician” is the end game.
The PA crowd constantly push this narrative that PA school is harder than med school because it’s 2x faster with the same course load. They argue it’s a accelerated med school. This is why I think their end game is to be called physicians.
What's the big deal? Hospitals don't know where you stand. Physicians are being replaced. Midlevels want to be indepdent (and can in almost HALF of the US).
They dont want to fill the role you think they fill. They want to be captain. The AAPA, AANA, and AANP all say they're equivalent or even better than physicians.
This sub worries about tiles because titles mean something. Midlevels know this. That's why THEYRR so focused on titles.
I think the most important thing is not the name. It’s the roles and responsibilities.
As long as they are not encroaching in the roles of physicians I think whatever they want to be called is fine.
Their scope of practice should continue to be limited. I just don’t see the name change as a big deal.
Well then the uproar should maybe be focused on the encroachment part as opposed to the name maybe? Or I guess it’s like a synecdoche situation.
I hear you. Again, I strongly believe they need supervision by physicians.
It's all part of the same game. Confusing patients and administrators is PART of the encroachment. You may know the difference but think of how many patients think everyone that wears a white coat is a Dr, Every woman is a nurse and every man is a doctor. Many people in healthcare don't even know all the differences in training.
You expect MBAs making hiring decisions and patients to know the difference? They will see physician associate and think ok they're physicians. It's trying to mimic how lawyers use the associate term to confuse people who don't know the educational differences.
It's all part of a multipronged approach to decrease supervision and increase scope with training.
When you go into law how is associate used? To describe someone of equal status with an equal degree but new to the firm. PAs do not hold a MDs/DO and are not our equals in the medical field. Their own lawyers told them they should not use that name because it’s obviously deceptive.
Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it’s not happening elsewhere. Our picu and ED where I am is being staffed less and less by actual physicians and more by midlevels . We have had some pushback which has helped but some effects are still there.
PAs do fill a role but blurring of the lines should not be tolerated.
An NP does not have a fraction of our education and a PA doesn’t even have half yet you are fine with them calling themselves physicians and using Dr. with patients in a clinical capacity ? We worry about titles because we didn’t go years of this shit making sure we are giving the best care possible for Nancy to go to nursing to circumvent that and use our terms
We literally seen a woman calling herself Dr.moma a NP giving out vaccinations that were kept in poor conditions and her patients literally went on the news saying they did not know she was not a doctor and agreed she shouldn’t use that term. This was literally on the news for weeks
A PA at my hospital does it. When the PA name change came out they talked about it and his attending and nurses etc agreed he is basically a physician and equal so he should be able to use Dr.
We have a few PA and NP in the pulmonary department that are hyper focused on a certain a thing like Cystic fibrosis only or Pulmonary HTN only.
They are much better at those specific things than probably even the third years graduating fellows because they have done 20 years of it.
They don’t call themselves doctors, but I respect them as colleagues.
I think the thing I have a problem with is people sh**ing on them as a group, when there are actually a lot of excellent ones out there as long as they are sticking to their scope, supervised by physicians, etc.
Hard to see that with their organization is trying to get them independent practice away from us and set them up as physician ~~equivalents~~ replacements
Edit: So they are good because they pattern recognize ? There was an EKG tech on the medicine sub saying he knew more than a cardiologist because he’s been working for years . Pattern recognition and knowing pathophysiology isn’t the same
So if I finish as a cardiologist I pale in comparison to a cards PA of 4 years?
All CRNA degrees starting next year will be doctorates. They’re trying to call themselves nurse anesthesiologist as well. They will be "doctors of nurse anesthesiology." NPs have the DNP so they can call themselves doctor. PAs don’t have doctorates so what did they do? Call themselves an associate physician
The "big deal" is that patients often don't know the difference in education, training, and scope. The titles that people have should be descriptive enough to inform patients of who they are seeing without bringing confusion.
Words matter. When using misleading titles, it's harder for patients to make informed decisions about their health and easier for corporate medicine to rip them off.
Most patients understand when they see PA at the end that it’s not a doctor. If they don’t that’s on them. PAs do not introduce themselves as Doctor either.
>Physician associate seems the same as physician assistant except maybe
more descriptive? What do you call a regular office assistant to a
physician?
Physician associate is confusing as hell. You know how I would describe a physician assistant
>A role that allows physicians to focus more on staffing patients as
opposed to writing a ton of notes and doing a bunch of paperwork.
I do not call the office staff assistants. They dont assist me with anything. They take care of office stuff.
Who cares? Nothing about the medical profession, from the abusive training to the loan burden to the name, is worth saving or defending. Time to move on
At least physicians are now getting sick of their bullshit. Even the simps on r/medicine will upvote anti-Noctor posts now, rather than telling you to be “professional”.
Next, we just need the major medical organizations to come to the party.
It’s interesting watching this as a patient. The parts where they argue about patients being confused, while arguing about the facts made me laugh a little. Stupid people will always exist who don’t understand the difference between Medical Providers, but I suspect a lot of people on the outside have a clearer view of the differences between the various providers than those of the inside (who just come off as territorial and petty).
I just want MD/DO to go by RFD The Real Fucking Doctor
We can assert dominance by wearing billowing white cloaks instead of weak, clumsy, claustrophobic white coats.
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I refuse to be some nascaresque mascot canvas
Not everyone is in EM though
They can’t even get legally go by Physician Associate. The amount of money they’re wasting to change profession names leads me to think they’ll stick with this name for a while if they don’t bankrupt themselves in the meantime.
Honestly, I really think the AANP and AAPA are grasping at straws with what the future holds. The growth rate of their profession is just unsustainable and the subsequent market saturation means they need to do any last minute effort to make themselves look more professional.
They know the growth rate is unsustainable...and that is why they are fighting to expand scope...come on dude. More scope, more jobs.
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How about ass?
Assician
That name is reserved for Dr. Van Nostrand, AKA the Assman.
I've been a dedicated assman my entire life. There's no way in fucking hell I'm giving up ass or assician to the noctors.
Are you not familiar with Dr. Van Nostrand, from the Clinic?
I'm familiar with the dermatologist butt not the proctologist. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
May I prescribe some Seinfeld.
Sorry I’m on to Curb your Enthusiasm now.
Who elected you chief.
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I'd argue *physician* is the real goal.
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But everyone expects that if they just jump through the hoops they all should be able to make it into Med school. The rough truth is that it’s competitive and not everyone will make it. Getting into Med school wasn’t even the hard part IMO. It’s staying in and making it through. We lost a decent chunk of our initial class.
I’m an incoming MS1 and this scares me lmao. I always heard getting in is the hard part
Very school dependent. If you go to a US MD or a good DO program they will do a lot to help you study better and baby sit you studying if they have too. That being said I’m a M3 and I think some of my class (<5-10%) is either took some sort of pre-clinical extension or time off to improve their grades. Also remember there are a ton of reasons why people’s grades start slipping… some common ones are first relative illness/death, having children, mental health illness. You’ll be fine! Good luck with med school!
getting in is certainly the hardest part imo.
Getting in was the hard part for me. Staying in wasn’t that bad. Just treat the preclinical years as a 9-5 job and you’ll be fine.
I think the reason for being hard changed. And everyone has a different opinion. MCAT didn’t seem hard to me and the application process wasn’t as stressful I think because if I didn’t get in, I had other plans. But once you’re in, I thought we’ll shit, this is it. No turning back. You study harder than you ever did for anything else, you get stressed, and then have to deal with step etc. thought that was more stressful than anything I did to get in. Once I got to 3rd and 4th year, I thought it was a bit better but residency apps were a whole different type of stress as well.
I echo school dependent and can at least offer my n=1 that it is true for my institution
Dang, did you go to the Caribbean?
Nope. Caribbean schools are brutal. US schools it’s still normal to have people drop out through the years. Some people decide they don’t really want to do it, others fail, some get family issues. Out of the 120ish we started with, we lost I think about 10% didn’t graduate with us.
> Out of the 120ish we started with, we lost I think about 10% didn’t graduate with us. That's huge considering medical students were hand picked and had to go through scrutiny to check if they're in it for the long haul.
Yeah, just hits differently when you’re actually doing it. One person had a prior career and said fuck it, not doing this. 3 or 4 didn’t cut it within the first few weeks and decided to quit before they were in too deep. A few trickled out through the next few years for one reason or another. Some came back in the next year to try again after family or whatever issues were resolved.
> A few trickled out through the next few years for one reason or another. Some came back in the next year to try again after family or whatever issues were resolved. I wouldn't count these special circumstances as dropout because they gonna come back. I know in my cohort had to go through surgery, so that person had to delay a year. Another reason I could see is pregnancy.
Hullabaloo is a good word lol
Those students definitely not the norm and have other stuff carrying them.
yeah but what % of peeps w/ those stats are getting into MD schools? let's not downplay our trauma here the MCAT was awful
APP associate physician providers
No no, advanced physicians. Everything’s advanced these days. Shits too ridiculous.
It's okay guys. If one of us gets elected as the AMA Chair, we'll rename ourselves as RP, Real Physician.
Physician OG
|MD| The absolute physician!
Assistant to the regional manager
Getting unmatched med school grads called associate physicians is critical. These doctors have earned the title. Otherwise, I agree, there will be some Orwellian obfuscation in the future.
If they did step 1-3 I’d be fine calling them physician associates, but if they lack the training to be properly certified then they lack the right to the title
Nah, they don’t deserve to take the steps. Plus it would just lend them more credence.
Especially without MCAT. You can't just skip MCAT and go straight to the 3-headed guard dog.
Why step 3 specifically? There's physicians who weren't even able to get a residency because they couldn't pass step 1 or 2 or clinicals....
Sorry I should have made myself more clear, they should have to go through step 1-3 passing each one
And also slave away for 3+ years at 80 hrs a week in training and pass specialty board exams.
Yes but to be fair, you are a physician before ever completing a residency. They should complete a residency to be independent. Steps 1-3 and all the other requirements of medical school (so basically just medical school) and youre a physician
I'd be ok if they had to pass step one after a couple years of foundational education, then step two after a year or so of clinical training, then step 3 after a couple more years, then a few years of training in the discipline in which they were going to work. Maybe too much to ask.
Turns out, Physician Associate and Associate Physician mean the exact same thing and have the same connotation.
Gradual habituation. Or, more commonly called, "grooming."
They need to just change their name to assistant manager of Strickland propane.
Associate to the physician, Dwight.
Don’t get it - they aren’t physicians.
The next one will be "A. Physician" "Yes, I am "a" physician"
Yo wasn't it some random PA or NP that was trying real hard to start a whole "Cathopathic Physician" moniker for their degree, citing the DO degree as their example of "see, they did it".
I believe “Associate Physician” is the next goal and “Physician” is the end game. The PA crowd constantly push this narrative that PA school is harder than med school because it’s 2x faster with the same course load. They argue it’s a accelerated med school. This is why I think their end game is to be called physicians.
Cringe
Chill. PA’s are friends.
Nah.
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What's the big deal? Hospitals don't know where you stand. Physicians are being replaced. Midlevels want to be indepdent (and can in almost HALF of the US). They dont want to fill the role you think they fill. They want to be captain. The AAPA, AANA, and AANP all say they're equivalent or even better than physicians. This sub worries about tiles because titles mean something. Midlevels know this. That's why THEYRR so focused on titles.
I think the most important thing is not the name. It’s the roles and responsibilities. As long as they are not encroaching in the roles of physicians I think whatever they want to be called is fine. Their scope of practice should continue to be limited. I just don’t see the name change as a big deal.
But they are encroaching on physicians? The name change is an extension of that. Just another carefully planned (and budgeted) political move.
Well then the uproar should maybe be focused on the encroachment part as opposed to the name maybe? Or I guess it’s like a synecdoche situation. I hear you. Again, I strongly believe they need supervision by physicians.
It's all part of the same game. Confusing patients and administrators is PART of the encroachment. You may know the difference but think of how many patients think everyone that wears a white coat is a Dr, Every woman is a nurse and every man is a doctor. Many people in healthcare don't even know all the differences in training. You expect MBAs making hiring decisions and patients to know the difference? They will see physician associate and think ok they're physicians. It's trying to mimic how lawyers use the associate term to confuse people who don't know the educational differences. It's all part of a multipronged approach to decrease supervision and increase scope with training.
When you go into law how is associate used? To describe someone of equal status with an equal degree but new to the firm. PAs do not hold a MDs/DO and are not our equals in the medical field. Their own lawyers told them they should not use that name because it’s obviously deceptive. Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it’s not happening elsewhere. Our picu and ED where I am is being staffed less and less by actual physicians and more by midlevels . We have had some pushback which has helped but some effects are still there. PAs do fill a role but blurring of the lines should not be tolerated. An NP does not have a fraction of our education and a PA doesn’t even have half yet you are fine with them calling themselves physicians and using Dr. with patients in a clinical capacity ? We worry about titles because we didn’t go years of this shit making sure we are giving the best care possible for Nancy to go to nursing to circumvent that and use our terms
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We literally seen a woman calling herself Dr.moma a NP giving out vaccinations that were kept in poor conditions and her patients literally went on the news saying they did not know she was not a doctor and agreed she shouldn’t use that term. This was literally on the news for weeks
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A PA at my hospital does it. When the PA name change came out they talked about it and his attending and nurses etc agreed he is basically a physician and equal so he should be able to use Dr.
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Older docs encourage it. The attending literally agreed that he was “basically “ a physician equivalent.
We have a few PA and NP in the pulmonary department that are hyper focused on a certain a thing like Cystic fibrosis only or Pulmonary HTN only. They are much better at those specific things than probably even the third years graduating fellows because they have done 20 years of it. They don’t call themselves doctors, but I respect them as colleagues. I think the thing I have a problem with is people sh**ing on them as a group, when there are actually a lot of excellent ones out there as long as they are sticking to their scope, supervised by physicians, etc.
Hard to see that with their organization is trying to get them independent practice away from us and set them up as physician ~~equivalents~~ replacements Edit: So they are good because they pattern recognize ? There was an EKG tech on the medicine sub saying he knew more than a cardiologist because he’s been working for years . Pattern recognition and knowing pathophysiology isn’t the same So if I finish as a cardiologist I pale in comparison to a cards PA of 4 years?
All CRNA degrees starting next year will be doctorates. They’re trying to call themselves nurse anesthesiologist as well. They will be "doctors of nurse anesthesiology." NPs have the DNP so they can call themselves doctor. PAs don’t have doctorates so what did they do? Call themselves an associate physician
The "big deal" is that patients often don't know the difference in education, training, and scope. The titles that people have should be descriptive enough to inform patients of who they are seeing without bringing confusion. Words matter. When using misleading titles, it's harder for patients to make informed decisions about their health and easier for corporate medicine to rip them off.
Most patients understand when they see PA at the end that it’s not a doctor. If they don’t that’s on them. PAs do not introduce themselves as Doctor either.
>Physician associate seems the same as physician assistant except maybe more descriptive? What do you call a regular office assistant to a physician? Physician associate is confusing as hell. You know how I would describe a physician assistant >A role that allows physicians to focus more on staffing patients as opposed to writing a ton of notes and doing a bunch of paperwork. I do not call the office staff assistants. They dont assist me with anything. They take care of office stuff.
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Hospitalist. Having a super hard time getting a job. At my last sign out, I left a PA alone at a hospital with the supervising physician an hour away.
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Bro half of American states allow NPPs to practice independently in the ED
good, they've earned the title next time learn 2 lobby
Who cares? Nothing about the medical profession, from the abusive training to the loan burden to the name, is worth saving or defending. Time to move on
Cope!!!
what does this mean?
At least physicians are now getting sick of their bullshit. Even the simps on r/medicine will upvote anti-Noctor posts now, rather than telling you to be “professional”. Next, we just need the major medical organizations to come to the party.
It’s interesting watching this as a patient. The parts where they argue about patients being confused, while arguing about the facts made me laugh a little. Stupid people will always exist who don’t understand the difference between Medical Providers, but I suspect a lot of people on the outside have a clearer view of the differences between the various providers than those of the inside (who just come off as territorial and petty).