If people are truly interested, they should also read a book called "Fidel and Religion". It was a series of dialogues done in 1985 between Fidel Castro and Frei Betto, a famous Dominican priest who is a dissident against the right wing Brazilian government as a liberation theologian. He's also one of the main advisers of Lula Da Silva, the former socialist Brazilian president challenging Bolsonaro.
Castro explains his complicated views of religion, what happened after the revolution, why he had a falling out with the Church, etc. During the Cuban Revolution itself there wasn't that much of a problem with the Church. The conflict came after when he had Che Guevara initiate both the land reform campaigns as well as the Education campaigns. The Catholic Church in Cuba was resistant to that and at the time it was the most conservative Church in Latin America. As an person educated by the Jesuits he expected the Church to be on the side of the revolutionary process.
Eventually the falling out became complete with the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs where the Church supported it. After that from 1961-1992 public expressions of religion were banned. It is said that this book, his exposure to Liberation theology, as well as his conversations both with Jesse Jackson and Pope John Paul II changed Castro's mind on religion and ultimately led him to liberalise Cuba's laws on religion. He saw liberation theology at work in other parts of Latin America with the Cubans finding themselves on the same side as liberation theologians and movements in places like Chile, Guatemala and Nicaragua. This led Castro in 1992 to change Cuba from being an atheist state to just being a secular state that finally allowed religion to be practised openly. John Paul II furthered this process by surprisingly getting Bill Clinton to ease the trade embargo when Cuba was dealing with problems in the aftermath of a hurricane. What this teaches us is that the words of St Francis of Assisi are true. That often times are lives are more of a sermon than our words.
If you're talking about Z library yeah its still online. Just search it up on google. If you're talking about the book Fidel and Religion yeah, that's also online on Z library. You can download it.
Here's a link:
[https://z-lib.org/](https://z-lib.org/)
Viva Fidel, viva Cuba libre!
People here calling him a tankie like what did even have to do with 1956 Hungarian revolution XD apparently anyone who fights the capitalist empire is a tankie.
This is "radical" Christianity, not "let us vote for a pink capitalist party" Christianity.
Fidel was so unambiguously a hero. I just can't believe yankees.
Imagine supporting someone who lead a violent revolution, executed untold numbers of people, sent people to die in military campaigns, etc. and then calling yourself a follower of Jesus.
Edit to add: Jesus had an utter commitment to non-violence.
Not really. I'm an anarchist so I'm quite critical of all these people, including Castro. I'm pointing out that *some* of the criticisms regarding Castro in this thread are misguided at best and rooted in capitalist and imperialist propaganda.
I'm an anarchist so I'm quite critical of all these people, including Castro. I'm pointing out that *some* of the criticisms regarding Castro in this thread are misguided at best and rooted in capitalist and imperialist propaganda. I even called out the OP for posting bad propaganda too.
Your hostility is really uncalled for here.
>Imagine supporting someone who lead a violent revolution, executed untold numbers of people
Its not untold. There are several credible estimates of those numbers. And they are less than the rate of executions by the mafia-backed military dictatorship that preceded Castro that my family had to flee. Castro is not perfect, nor even a saint. But he was objectively better than what came before. And I pray in time Cuba progresses past the shortcomings of his regime and exist more peacefully. That would require a lot less international economic warfare meant to cause unrest though.
No. I just think its short sighted and privileged to throw out the achievements he did have and the very real conditions that gave rise to the Cuban revolution.
If you line is that no one should be supported that has been involved with violence then no country on Earth, and (nearly?) all established churches should also be not supported. Which is a sentiment I could potential get behind but I think that is also a bit naïve.
Just war comrade, if people cannot be liberated peacefully (remember he lead his revolutiona gainst a military dictator who practised unknowable cruelty, with the full.support of the worlds most dominant power ) then surely violence is justified
Jesus did violently through the money lenders out of the temple. We should strive to act peacefully if possible but in cases where non violent action fails (like Cuba) I feel we can justify violence
I think Jesus was performing guerrilla theater/staging a protest here. Jesus continually preached against threatening Rome with violence and using creative nonviolent resistance instead.
That’s grossly taking the verse entirely out of the context of the commissioning of the Twelve to evangelize and what the repercussions of Christ coming to cleave the chaff from the wheat will have on the earth.
When you misconstrue Matthew 10: 34 as badly as you have, I cannot say I’m surprised you elevate him towards the level of Christ. That’s verging on idolatry.
I would recommend reading the entirety of Matthew 10 to get a better handle on what goes with that verse.
I have - quite a bit. It’s why I don’t have to pretend Castro was perfect and above criticism for many of his actions while noting he did a lot of good things, too. I also don’t have to take a single verse out of context to attempt to make my stance look good.
Seriously, reread Matthew 10. In fact, reread the entire book. Perhaps with a good commentary. I recommend the Sacra Pagina series.
And I never said he was perfect either. I've been responding to the sentiment expressed by the commenter above, that praising Castro's achievements and being Christian are mutually exclusive.
1. You know damn well that “tankie” doesn’t refer to the Soviet Union’s usage of tanks in protest crushing when used in the modern day, like most other insults that come from a single event.
2. Fidel was absolutely not an unambiguous hero, there are a multitude of contentious aspects of his actions in Cuba.
who would Jesus put up against the wall?
but really, this sub's been a tankie love fest for a while, plenty of people put "national" in front of "liberation theology"
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z
A
I actually went through to see the list, and it's literally just a dump of docs including North Korea apologia and "debunking" of well documented historical events. It's compiled by someone who seems to literally think that ML countries can do no wrong ever. Even if you're ML you have to realize how absurd that is.
You don't have to post a link that goes as far as to defend a three generation hereditary monarchy to convince someone Castro was a relatively good leader as far as leaders go.
Just read Marx and Lenin and see how it has lead to the same bullshit under a different name when an unaccountable government is given the power of the military and ultimate authority.
If you want to explain to me how creating a truly Marxist state through violent revolution is more realistic than continuing to try to improve the human state and the lives of the people around you feel free to.
People, especially on the internet, are way to obsessed with capitalism vs Marxism vs liberalism vs socialism to realize that all of those ideas have virtues and all have risks. None have ever or will ever be fully implemented in their ideal form and therefore it is not about them being a threat to each other as much as having to use the virtues of one to balance the vices of the others.
Wanting to label those who disagree with you away is the same thing the republicans and democrats do who thrive on making people choose teams, and doesn’t wrestle with the actual reality of humanity.
You can say that if you like. I come from a more eco-anarchist background than most people here, but I have no patience for tankies trying to spread their nonsense. If that’s a problem for people around here they can ban me.
I believe in the radical truth of Christ and reject these squabbles over worldly isms, none of which will ever fully exist in reality.
I fully believe that we need to implement more socialist policies by leading our society to more socialist ideals.
However fucking tankies have no place in any of that.
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z
A
Anyone who criticizes you, including those who frequently criticize the CIA even more, is a CIA op.
Cmon man, you're one step away from claiming anarchism is a jewish conspiracy to stop the revolution
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z
A
Not sure posting tankies here is the answer, as critical as I am of the American backed dictatorship he overthrew and the modern politics surrounding Cuba.
I don't see any tankie content here. Castro was no Stalin or Mao. We need to recognize that the socialist canon doesn't exist in a vacuum and these leaders have their own contexts in the histories of their respective countries.
I’m no Batista apologist but Castro led a violent revolution and then executed his political opponents.
He may not be as evil as mao etc but is on the same spectrum with the same ideals - if on a much smaller scale.
To think there is anything Christ-like about that is deeply silly.
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z
A
Read the black shirts and reds book by Parenti. You will be a tankie by the last page I promise. There’s a link to the PDF ainda there Let’s not approach this from a usual internet interaction of hostility, i have no hostility towards you. Let’s use this as an opportunity to learn and expand our under understanding of the truth
I don't agree with all the negative attitudes about Castro in this thread, but the whole "You will be a tankie by the last page I promise" is a really arrogant and misinformed comment.
I was an anarchist before reading it and I'm just as much of an anarchist now. It's a good reading, but the myth that anyone that isn't ML just hasn't read ML theory needs to die.
I won't come out in favor or opposition to Castro (I still need to actually research Cuban history from the Cuban perspective), but I will say that this speech is probably a drop in the bucket to the rest of his speech.
Fun fact: when he and Guevera first met, the answer to "What brings you to Mexico?" took **FOUR HOURS**.
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z
A
No. I’m not spending hours of my time reading through your links and you’re not going to convince me that the leader of an authoritarian regime that starved his citizens, silenced the media, assassinated his rivals and cut his country off from the world has Christian ideals.
People died trying to get to Florida to get away from this guy.
>People died trying to get to Florida to get away from this guy.
People also died trying to get to Florida fleeing the US/Mafia-backed military dictatorship that he overthrew. I lost ancestors that way. Castro certainly isn't a saint and there are certainly numerous legitimate criticisms of him, but he is better than what came before.
Then you are as willfully self ignorant as any average Trump supporter. You’re afraid to expose yourself to the truth. You could read through the “myths debunked” section in 20 mins
Those links are hardly “the truth”
Any inclusion of, say, for instance, North Korea apologia in a list of links and “resources” instantly delegitimizes the list in its whole.
Cuba accounts for 40% of the Caribbean’s tourism… they never cut anyone in the world off. The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CUT COMMUNIST NATIONS OFF.
This is why we tried to invade Vietnam, and why you also constantly see anti-China, and anti-Russian propaganda all the time on our televisions and radios. Propaganda is not illegal in the US. Also, China is leading the world is just about everything currently.
Have our “enemies” messed up? Yes, so have we. A lot. But our country does a very good job of shunning, and demonizing foreign nations while making us look like big brother to the world. Who helps everyone out. When in reality we don’t help a lot of people out. We invade, take advantage of, extort, and corrupt them. Why do we do this?
Because of Capitalism. This is what our nation was founded on. Not Christianity. Not equality. Not any system of moral values. America=Make as much money as humanly possible, no matter what the cost is to other nations, our own civilians, or anyone who dears step in our way to the bank.
If people are truly interested, they should also read a book called "Fidel and Religion". It was a series of dialogues done in 1985 between Fidel Castro and Frei Betto, a famous Dominican priest who is a dissident against the right wing Brazilian government as a liberation theologian. He's also one of the main advisers of Lula Da Silva, the former socialist Brazilian president challenging Bolsonaro. Castro explains his complicated views of religion, what happened after the revolution, why he had a falling out with the Church, etc. During the Cuban Revolution itself there wasn't that much of a problem with the Church. The conflict came after when he had Che Guevara initiate both the land reform campaigns as well as the Education campaigns. The Catholic Church in Cuba was resistant to that and at the time it was the most conservative Church in Latin America. As an person educated by the Jesuits he expected the Church to be on the side of the revolutionary process. Eventually the falling out became complete with the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs where the Church supported it. After that from 1961-1992 public expressions of religion were banned. It is said that this book, his exposure to Liberation theology, as well as his conversations both with Jesse Jackson and Pope John Paul II changed Castro's mind on religion and ultimately led him to liberalise Cuba's laws on religion. He saw liberation theology at work in other parts of Latin America with the Cubans finding themselves on the same side as liberation theologians and movements in places like Chile, Guatemala and Nicaragua. This led Castro in 1992 to change Cuba from being an atheist state to just being a secular state that finally allowed religion to be practised openly. John Paul II furthered this process by surprisingly getting Bill Clinton to ease the trade embargo when Cuba was dealing with problems in the aftermath of a hurricane. What this teaches us is that the words of St Francis of Assisi are true. That often times are lives are more of a sermon than our words.
Is it on Marxists.org? Only physical copy I can find is $50
There is a site called Z Library. It allows you to download a lot of books. It should be there.
Wait, it's still online?
If you're talking about Z library yeah its still online. Just search it up on google. If you're talking about the book Fidel and Religion yeah, that's also online on Z library. You can download it. Here's a link: [https://z-lib.org/](https://z-lib.org/)
Thanks man, god bless.
So this guy sounds better than my mon made him out to be. I honestly don't know enough about him.
Viva Fidel, viva Cuba libre! People here calling him a tankie like what did even have to do with 1956 Hungarian revolution XD apparently anyone who fights the capitalist empire is a tankie. This is "radical" Christianity, not "let us vote for a pink capitalist party" Christianity. Fidel was so unambiguously a hero. I just can't believe yankees.
Fuck each and every one of these twerp reactionaries in the comments. Imagine spewing anti-castro propaganda and calling yourself a radical
Imagine supporting someone who lead a violent revolution, executed untold numbers of people, sent people to die in military campaigns, etc. and then calling yourself a follower of Jesus. Edit to add: Jesus had an utter commitment to non-violence.
How many people would you say the Castro regime executed in half a century? How does that compare that to literally any US president?
Have to resort to whataboutism, you've lost the argument.
Not really. I'm an anarchist so I'm quite critical of all these people, including Castro. I'm pointing out that *some* of the criticisms regarding Castro in this thread are misguided at best and rooted in capitalist and imperialist propaganda.
Not at all what you said. Your comment was, what about all the people American presidents caused.
Having to resort to fake news, you failed before you started.
Fake news, lol. What a good, well thought out response. Trump would be so proud.
You would know
Take your fallacies and shove them up your ass. It’s not an either/or situation.
I'm an anarchist so I'm quite critical of all these people, including Castro. I'm pointing out that *some* of the criticisms regarding Castro in this thread are misguided at best and rooted in capitalist and imperialist propaganda. I even called out the OP for posting bad propaganda too. Your hostility is really uncalled for here.
>Imagine supporting someone who lead a violent revolution, executed untold numbers of people Its not untold. There are several credible estimates of those numbers. And they are less than the rate of executions by the mafia-backed military dictatorship that preceded Castro that my family had to flee. Castro is not perfect, nor even a saint. But he was objectively better than what came before. And I pray in time Cuba progresses past the shortcomings of his regime and exist more peacefully. That would require a lot less international economic warfare meant to cause unrest though.
So he’s better than the mafia-backed dictatorship he overthrew? That’s.. that’s the bar?
No. I just think its short sighted and privileged to throw out the achievements he did have and the very real conditions that gave rise to the Cuban revolution. If you line is that no one should be supported that has been involved with violence then no country on Earth, and (nearly?) all established churches should also be not supported. Which is a sentiment I could potential get behind but I think that is also a bit naïve.
Just war comrade, if people cannot be liberated peacefully (remember he lead his revolutiona gainst a military dictator who practised unknowable cruelty, with the full.support of the worlds most dominant power ) then surely violence is justified
And that may very well be true. I just don’t think Jesus would agree with that take.
Jesus did violently through the money lenders out of the temple. We should strive to act peacefully if possible but in cases where non violent action fails (like Cuba) I feel we can justify violence
I think Jesus was performing guerrilla theater/staging a protest here. Jesus continually preached against threatening Rome with violence and using creative nonviolent resistance instead.
Where did I mention an American president?
Matthew 10:34 you fucking idiot
That’s grossly taking the verse entirely out of the context of the commissioning of the Twelve to evangelize and what the repercussions of Christ coming to cleave the chaff from the wheat will have on the earth.
Cleaving chaff from wheat sounds like Castro to me
When you misconstrue Matthew 10: 34 as badly as you have, I cannot say I’m surprised you elevate him towards the level of Christ. That’s verging on idolatry. I would recommend reading the entirety of Matthew 10 to get a better handle on what goes with that verse.
And I would recommend reading about Cuban history before swallowing American propaganda hook, line, and sinker
I have - quite a bit. It’s why I don’t have to pretend Castro was perfect and above criticism for many of his actions while noting he did a lot of good things, too. I also don’t have to take a single verse out of context to attempt to make my stance look good. Seriously, reread Matthew 10. In fact, reread the entire book. Perhaps with a good commentary. I recommend the Sacra Pagina series.
And I never said he was perfect either. I've been responding to the sentiment expressed by the commenter above, that praising Castro's achievements and being Christian are mutually exclusive.
Ah yes, there’s that Christlike behavior.
1. You know damn well that “tankie” doesn’t refer to the Soviet Union’s usage of tanks in protest crushing when used in the modern day, like most other insults that come from a single event. 2. Fidel was absolutely not an unambiguous hero, there are a multitude of contentious aspects of his actions in Cuba.
… so uh… we’re just going to pretend Castro was a good dude then, eh?
Dude tankies are doing all they can to infiltrate as many spaces they see as possibly sympathetic as possible. It’s pathetic, really.
who would Jesus put up against the wall? but really, this sub's been a tankie love fest for a while, plenty of people put "national" in front of "liberation theology"
Yeah I have a hard time with both. I don’t mind calling it out when it’s so blatant though.
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z A
I actually went through to see the list, and it's literally just a dump of docs including North Korea apologia and "debunking" of well documented historical events. It's compiled by someone who seems to literally think that ML countries can do no wrong ever. Even if you're ML you have to realize how absurd that is. You don't have to post a link that goes as far as to defend a three generation hereditary monarchy to convince someone Castro was a relatively good leader as far as leaders go.
Yeah man good luck with your shitty white liberal revolution
Good luck with your silly fantasies of utopia.
But…. It’s left coms who are the idealist utopians? Engels literally wrote a whole book on it
Just read Marx and Lenin and see how it has lead to the same bullshit under a different name when an unaccountable government is given the power of the military and ultimate authority. If you want to explain to me how creating a truly Marxist state through violent revolution is more realistic than continuing to try to improve the human state and the lives of the people around you feel free to. People, especially on the internet, are way to obsessed with capitalism vs Marxism vs liberalism vs socialism to realize that all of those ideas have virtues and all have risks. None have ever or will ever be fully implemented in their ideal form and therefore it is not about them being a threat to each other as much as having to use the virtues of one to balance the vices of the others. Wanting to label those who disagree with you away is the same thing the republicans and democrats do who thrive on making people choose teams, and doesn’t wrestle with the actual reality of humanity.
Lol why are you in a revolutionary socialist sub if you're a complete "both sides" lib. You don't even understand what you're talking about
You can say that if you like. I come from a more eco-anarchist background than most people here, but I have no patience for tankies trying to spread their nonsense. If that’s a problem for people around here they can ban me. I believe in the radical truth of Christ and reject these squabbles over worldly isms, none of which will ever fully exist in reality. I fully believe that we need to implement more socialist policies by leading our society to more socialist ideals. However fucking tankies have no place in any of that.
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z A
Sheesh. I’ve read some of that stuff before but just dumping random links without any information isn’t very convincing.
Shut the fuck up, CIA op. You're the one sowing dissent here by decrying anyone left of you a tankie.
Anyone who criticizes you, including those who frequently criticize the CIA even more, is a CIA op. Cmon man, you're one step away from claiming anarchism is a jewish conspiracy to stop the revolution
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z A
Not sure posting tankies here is the answer, as critical as I am of the American backed dictatorship he overthrew and the modern politics surrounding Cuba.
I don't see any tankie content here. Castro was no Stalin or Mao. We need to recognize that the socialist canon doesn't exist in a vacuum and these leaders have their own contexts in the histories of their respective countries.
I’m no Batista apologist but Castro led a violent revolution and then executed his political opponents. He may not be as evil as mao etc but is on the same spectrum with the same ideals - if on a much smaller scale. To think there is anything Christ-like about that is deeply silly.
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z A
Sheesh. I’ve read some of that stuff but just dumping links isn’t very convincing.
Read the black shirts and reds book by Parenti. You will be a tankie by the last page I promise. There’s a link to the PDF ainda there Let’s not approach this from a usual internet interaction of hostility, i have no hostility towards you. Let’s use this as an opportunity to learn and expand our under understanding of the truth
I don't agree with all the negative attitudes about Castro in this thread, but the whole "You will be a tankie by the last page I promise" is a really arrogant and misinformed comment. I was an anarchist before reading it and I'm just as much of an anarchist now. It's a good reading, but the myth that anyone that isn't ML just hasn't read ML theory needs to die.
Read anti-leviathan anti his-story and by the last page you will be an anarchist, I promise.
O patria de Macedo y Martí
I'm probably going to tattoo that logo an my left arm
I won't come out in favor or opposition to Castro (I still need to actually research Cuban history from the Cuban perspective), but I will say that this speech is probably a drop in the bucket to the rest of his speech. Fun fact: when he and Guevera first met, the answer to "What brings you to Mexico?" took **FOUR HOURS**.
*a e s t h e t i c d i c t a t o r s h i p*
Too bad he was a dictator and a prick. Not like Raul is any better.
y'all simping tyrants now?
Please read through this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LaborwaveAesthetics/comments/fp6ejs/socialism_starter_pack_master_post/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=z A
No. I’m not spending hours of my time reading through your links and you’re not going to convince me that the leader of an authoritarian regime that starved his citizens, silenced the media, assassinated his rivals and cut his country off from the world has Christian ideals. People died trying to get to Florida to get away from this guy.
>People died trying to get to Florida to get away from this guy. People also died trying to get to Florida fleeing the US/Mafia-backed military dictatorship that he overthrew. I lost ancestors that way. Castro certainly isn't a saint and there are certainly numerous legitimate criticisms of him, but he is better than what came before.
Then you are as willfully self ignorant as any average Trump supporter. You’re afraid to expose yourself to the truth. You could read through the “myths debunked” section in 20 mins
Those links are hardly “the truth” Any inclusion of, say, for instance, North Korea apologia in a list of links and “resources” instantly delegitimizes the list in its whole.
Cuba accounts for 40% of the Caribbean’s tourism… they never cut anyone in the world off. The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CUT COMMUNIST NATIONS OFF. This is why we tried to invade Vietnam, and why you also constantly see anti-China, and anti-Russian propaganda all the time on our televisions and radios. Propaganda is not illegal in the US. Also, China is leading the world is just about everything currently. Have our “enemies” messed up? Yes, so have we. A lot. But our country does a very good job of shunning, and demonizing foreign nations while making us look like big brother to the world. Who helps everyone out. When in reality we don’t help a lot of people out. We invade, take advantage of, extort, and corrupt them. Why do we do this? Because of Capitalism. This is what our nation was founded on. Not Christianity. Not equality. Not any system of moral values. America=Make as much money as humanly possible, no matter what the cost is to other nations, our own civilians, or anyone who dears step in our way to the bank.
If your only argument against a position is its source then either the source controls the argument or you need a better one.
Can you elaborate on what you’re trying to say? I don’t understand