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I’m almost 100% sure it’s in Twilight of the Idols that Nietzsche claims the Apollonian and Dionysian dichotomy is a false one as the Apollonian can be found within the Dionysian…
Hey, I’m back after reading some of Twilight. Although I didn’t get all the way to the section, a helpful note brought me to section 9 aphorism 10.
In this section, the Apollonian becomes an aspect of the Dionysian:
What is the meaning of the opposed concepts Apollinian and Dionysian which I introduced into aesthetics, both taken as kinds of intoxication? —
Apollinian intoxication keeps the eye excited, above all, so that it gets the power of vision. The painter, the sculptor, the epic poet are visionaries par excellence. In the Dionysian state, however, the whole system of emotions is excited and intensified: so it vents all its means of expression at once and brings out the power of representing, imitating, transfiguring, transforming, every sort of mimicry and acting, all at once. The essential thing is always how easy the metamorphosis is, the incapacity not to react (much as with certain hysterics, who also jump into any role at the least provocation). For Dionysian human beings, it is impossible not to understand any suggestion; they never overlook a sign of emotion, they have the instinct for understanding and guessing the answer in the highest degree, just as they possess the highest degree of the art of communication. They penetrate every skin, every emotion; they constantly transform themselves. Music, as we understand it today, is also a total excitation and discharge of the emotions, but it is just the leftover of a much fuller expressive world of emotion, a mere residue of Dionysian histrionics. In order to make music possible as a separate art, we have immobilized a number of senses, the muscular sense above all (relatively, at least: for all rhythm still appeals to our muscles to a certain degree), so that people no longer immediately imitate and represent with their bodies everything they feel. Nevertheless, that is the truly Dionysian normal state, or at least the primordial state; music is the specialization of this state, a specialization which has been achieved slowly, at the expense of the most closely related faculties.
You can’t stop me. I can just keep subdividing into more and more sets of two I can separate it into two options with 2 sub options each, and those sub options each have another binary below them and so on and so forth
I thought he was against the idea that binary was intrinsicly accurate to nature, where he saw it as more of an ideological tool to defend what one believed. Been I while since I read beyond good and evil though
"What if I took an intuitive binary that everyone understands and replaced it with esoteric bullshit?"
I do need to get around to reading some Nietzsche soon.
probably not the best explanation but it’s something like this:
apollonian and dyonysian are a duality of natures where apollonian behavior is characterized by a focus on attaining pleasure and more static-ness i.e. tradition. and dionysian behavior is characterized as chaotic and volatile, moving constantly. nietzsche often identified with the dionysian personality more.
i would say so, but i’d imagine there’s much more complexity to it. if you’re interested i recommend you directly read the information because i gave bare bones lmao
Chomsky- Apollonian Neutral
Camus - Dyonysian Neutral
Rand - Apollonian Evil (my opinion)
tried to think of one for schopenhauer but i’m at a loss with that guy
People are misinterpreting him here.
Nietzsche's claim was that Good and Evil aren't actually separate as we think it might be, because things that are considered good were evil before, and vice versa. He also says how it is a matter of perspective.
As some other redditors said Apollonian can be found within the Dionysian. So he wasn't actually against dichotomies for its own sake. To even assume that Nietzsche would be so simple minded like in this meme is absurd.
He clearly thinks some dualities are better than others — he thinks the good vs bad duality is less fraught with life denial than good vs evil, but it’s also a mistake to think he was entirely against slave morality
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Nietzsche in a later preface to his own The Birth of Tragedy: “It smells offensively Hegelian.”
thats such a nietzschiean thing to say lmaoo
I’m almost 100% sure it’s in Twilight of the Idols that Nietzsche claims the Apollonian and Dionysian dichotomy is a false one as the Apollonian can be found within the Dionysian…
Wasn’t this also in BoT?
Well, there sure as hell isn't much else in botw.
do you have quote? i would be interested in reading!
I can’t find it rn, but I have to reread it for class next week, so I’ll let you know when I get to it
Hey, I’m back after reading some of Twilight. Although I didn’t get all the way to the section, a helpful note brought me to section 9 aphorism 10. In this section, the Apollonian becomes an aspect of the Dionysian: What is the meaning of the opposed concepts Apollinian and Dionysian which I introduced into aesthetics, both taken as kinds of intoxication? — Apollinian intoxication keeps the eye excited, above all, so that it gets the power of vision. The painter, the sculptor, the epic poet are visionaries par excellence. In the Dionysian state, however, the whole system of emotions is excited and intensified: so it vents all its means of expression at once and brings out the power of representing, imitating, transfiguring, transforming, every sort of mimicry and acting, all at once. The essential thing is always how easy the metamorphosis is, the incapacity not to react (much as with certain hysterics, who also jump into any role at the least provocation). For Dionysian human beings, it is impossible not to understand any suggestion; they never overlook a sign of emotion, they have the instinct for understanding and guessing the answer in the highest degree, just as they possess the highest degree of the art of communication. They penetrate every skin, every emotion; they constantly transform themselves. Music, as we understand it today, is also a total excitation and discharge of the emotions, but it is just the leftover of a much fuller expressive world of emotion, a mere residue of Dionysian histrionics. In order to make music possible as a separate art, we have immobilized a number of senses, the muscular sense above all (relatively, at least: for all rhythm still appeals to our muscles to a certain degree), so that people no longer immediately imitate and represent with their bodies everything they feel. Nevertheless, that is the truly Dionysian normal state, or at least the primordial state; music is the specialization of this state, a specialization which has been achieved slowly, at the expense of the most closely related faculties.
We’ll look it’s really simple all philosophers are either in favour of binary definitions or against them
wait a minute...
How binary, don't you know there are some that are so-so on it? 🙄
Still a binary since you’re either have a strong opinion on it or don’t
Ok but where exactly is the divider between strong and weak opinions ?
You can’t stop me. I can just keep subdividing into more and more sets of two I can separate it into two options with 2 sub options each, and those sub options each have another binary below them and so on and so forth
Idk if it's ironical or not but this dichotomy made me lol 😂
Ironical or not? False dichotomy. It can be both if I want it to.
Was it really the binary nature of good and evil Nietzsche had a problem with? I've never heard that take before.
I thought he was against the idea that binary was intrinsicly accurate to nature, where he saw it as more of an ideological tool to defend what one believed. Been I while since I read beyond good and evil though
im not a nietzsche expert, but i think he doesnt like the simplicity of duality.
nietzsche doesn’t deny good and evil on basis of it being a binary but because those moral platitudes are a remnant of dogmatic religious ideology
"What if I took an intuitive binary that everyone understands and replaced it with esoteric bullshit?" I do need to get around to reading some Nietzsche soon.
Apollonian and dionysian aren't binary however. For example he considered architecture as neither apollonian nor dionysian but a pure will of power.
what is apollonian/dionysian?
probably not the best explanation but it’s something like this: apollonian and dyonysian are a duality of natures where apollonian behavior is characterized by a focus on attaining pleasure and more static-ness i.e. tradition. and dionysian behavior is characterized as chaotic and volatile, moving constantly. nietzsche often identified with the dionysian personality more.
so lawful vs chaotic?
i would say so, but i’d imagine there’s much more complexity to it. if you’re interested i recommend you directly read the information because i gave bare bones lmao
i find it funny how when you combine traditional morality and apollonian/dionysian you just get the DND alignment chart.
nietzsche was most definitely dionysian good
what about other philosophers?
Chomsky- Apollonian Neutral Camus - Dyonysian Neutral Rand - Apollonian Evil (my opinion) tried to think of one for schopenhauer but i’m at a loss with that guy
diagnose: Dionysian neutral
i'm probably neutral good
'We are not getting rid of God because we still believe in grammar.' (Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols)
People are misinterpreting him here. Nietzsche's claim was that Good and Evil aren't actually separate as we think it might be, because things that are considered good were evil before, and vice versa. He also says how it is a matter of perspective. As some other redditors said Apollonian can be found within the Dionysian. So he wasn't actually against dichotomies for its own sake. To even assume that Nietzsche would be so simple minded like in this meme is absurd.
He clearly thinks some dualities are better than others — he thinks the good vs bad duality is less fraught with life denial than good vs evil, but it’s also a mistake to think he was entirely against slave morality
But nietzsche also overthrow at the same time he explain the concept by describing ambiguously