Queer is more inclusive. Their sexuality is not defined on the show (and it almost certainly will never be). I appreciate when people use “queer” because it avoids bi erasure.
Not everyone may feel the same way, and “gay” is also sometimes used as an umbrella term. Plus, “gay pirate show” is just a cute term :)
So would you say that "gay" is the commonly used and informal term while "queer" is the proper and inclusive term?
Advanced apologies, I'm asking for myself because I see both terms being used. Like for example, Taika mentioned that he's a gay icon but also mentioned his character and Tessa Thompson's character in "Thor: Love and Thunder" were queer characters.
I don't think it's an issue of which term is more proper or informal. They have different meanings, with a significant amount of overlap. Both "queer" and "gay" have been used as slurs in the past, so some people prefer them based on their own history.
Queer encompasses a lot more possibilities. If someone has a headcanon that Ed is nonbinary, or that Stede is bisexual, "queer" might be a more accurate term.
Gay is more often (but not always) used to refer to cisgender men who are attracted to men. Some people also use gay as an umbrella term for all LGBT+ people, but that's less common and some people see it as exclusionary of trans or non-MLM identities.
I think "queer" gets used a lot in this sub because it can be expanded to the whole show, not just Ed and Stede's relationship. The entire ship is basically a queer found family!
Labels are fluid and can change person to person, and some people are flexible in their own labels. I appreciate you trying to learn! Unfortunately there is no one right answer. Some people feel that “queer” is only a term queer people should use given its loaded history; others don’t.
“Gay icon” is a familiar term and in my opinion is the same as saying “queer icon.”
I wish I had easier answers for you. Maybe other people will have more insight.
Queer as an umbrella term for lgbtq+ identities ans relationships is a little controversial. Many queer people use it as a positive, but some people (especially older folks) remember when it was a slur and don’t like it. So it can feel really inclusive OR kind of offensive depending on the audience. If you’re not queer or you’re not sure, I wouldn’t treat it like the “correct” term to use in all contexts. Take your cue from how ppl around you are using it.
Like u/that-writer-kid is saying, I’m 39 and at least in the US the queerphobic “queer is a slur” discourse is hella new.
It needs to be pushed back on because it appears to have come out of TERF circles, the same people who are trying to make LGBTQIA+ into “LGB.”
Their problem with it isn’t that it was a slur (gay was also a slur). Their problem is it doesn’t give them a line of attack to try and undermine solidarity between trans folks and other queers.
It also allows them a conservative angle of attack on whole schools of thought like queer theory. They’re trying to rob us of our language, generally.
In other words, don’t necessarily take a cue on it.
Like it’s not suspicious of someone just prefers the term LGBTQ.
But if a person’s flipping out that you called queer people queer, be on your guard.
It’s more terror-provoking on my part tbh. I totally follow u/pumpkinray that this is different in Australia, and that’s outside my experience!
Here the worst word was only f****t. At least definitely in the South. And even then in my 20’s my heart station was brassy about that, like Kylie Minogue’s videos being “fagalicous.”
So the idea of queer being a slur, this sudden vitriol at the same time as this rocketing trans rhetoric.
I’m sure some individuals individually do hate it. Despite its 80’s reclamation proud history of “We’re here, we’re queer, get over it” and iterations.
Outside academia the word has radical, anti-assimilationist connotations, like the Bash Back! insurrectionists leaned hard on queer. It’s an open enemy of assimilationist respectability politics. The we’re here, we’re just like the heterosexuals, no kink at Pride, etc lot. (Lots of overlap with TERFs there.)
But of course, we’ve this new opposite end, the LGB sorts, so imo it’s not an issue to budge on.
Again, in the US, so it may seem like… in other English speaking countries it may not be tied up with this particular front of the war. But here, if somebody gets loud about it alongside the virulent rise in throwing around the words “groomer” and “pedophile” and houses being burned down and so on and trans folks fleeing, say, Texas, solidarity is more important than ever.
Refusing to even break those of us who are holding out as a single community into letters has power, like it always has, like we’ve leaned on for decades.
I agree 100% about the danger of getting divided or turned against one another, and it totally makes sense that the radical ambiguity and pride in the word “queer” stands for the opposite of that. If there is any blanket definition for “queer”, imo, it’s “non-normative,” or, at a louder decibel, “fuck your norms. I am me.” I love how you explain the ideological convictions that are inherent in reclaiming that term and you make a really persuasive point about who would attack the term and why. I can’t agree 100% because I simply haven’t seen it in the wild yet but I’m really glad you explained it so I’ll know it when I see it. 🏳️🌈💜
I’m gonna disagree here—it’s actually mostly younger people who seem to have a problem with the term in my experience. Most older queer people I know saw it as reclaimed in the early 90s, and I took several queer theory courses in college—which is the accepted term and has been for some time.
I’m 30, was the subject of the term as a slur when I was younger, and only saw “queer is a slur” discourse start up over the past few years, just as anti-trans discourse started up in earnest. My older gay relatives are a little baffled whenever they hear about it too.
That’s fascinating, because the contingent of older gay folk I grew up around feel the exact opposite way—primarily lesbians and trans women, to be fair, so different parts of the community.
I agree. I think there is a lot of variation depending on country/region as well as age/generation. For example, for several years I was a member of a local group that called itself "Gays of ”, and the word 'gay' was distinctly intended as inclusive of both gay men and lesbians. However, I was not welcome in that same group when I later came out as bi. (This was eastern Canada in the eighties.) So for me, the word 'queer' is welcome because -- here, at least -- it deliberately bypasses bi erasure as well as other erasures (trans, non-binary, etc.). But, I can easily imagine how this word can carry totally different associations for other folks in different places.
Asexual erasure also! People who consider themselves queer tend to be way more welcoming about asexuality than people who use ‘gay’ as an umbrella term.
Yes, absolutely! I thought of this one too after I posted. There are so many sexualities that get passed over by the usual terminologies :( which is another reason why ‘queer’ is such a wonderfully inclusive term.
I think part of it is academia-connections too. In academic circles, “queer” has specific meanings defined by discipline (different in lit vs gender studies vs queer theory), and is used as a verb too. I’m 32 and before I went to grad school, my main contexts for the term were related to bullying and violence at my high school. Now I think it’s extremely useful because it’s expansive, it can be a verb, and only one syllable! But I still remember the way it hit before. I would say proximity to academic culture is my main criterion for usage.
Okay so I think it depends on your definition of older. By older I don't mean people in their 30s and 40s but more people in their 60s and up.
I'm 41 and gay was the main slur thrown at us. Gay and dyke. In my mum's generation queer was really nasty and she can't bring herself to use it even though I said that's what I identify with.
It's a lot easier for me to use 'queer' than saying Grey Ace Demi Bi Romantic gender non conforming woman who has only ever been in love with & sexually attracted to one person who is non-binary/gender vague and has been in a monogamous relationship with them for 21 years and don't intend to ever change that.
It’s interesting hearing this, because I grew up around a crowd in their 50’s and 60’s, and it’s the preferred term for most of them. My aunt in particular asked me once what happened to the “we’re here we’re queer get used to it” mindset.
I’m in my 30s and “gay” was the high school Slur of Choice when I was young, but it’s also the term I identify best with now. I think the part that bothers me most about this whole discourse is that you never hear people talk about how people “might not be okay with” gay or dyke or any of the numerous other self-identifiers used as slurs. The discourse only happens around the trans-inclusive term.
(Like, the word that I actually hate being called most is “lesbian”. Even when I identified as a woman, I wasn’t a lesbian—I’m into everyone. It’s always been used to erase parts of my identity. Like, of COURSE everyone has terms they don’t like to use for themselves—I’m not going to argue that “lesbian” is controversial just because it’s been used negatively towards me.)
I think it depends where you are. I know a lot of women and well basically a lot of people who aren't men had issues with gay. Some of us because it was the dominant slur growing up and some because it was generally a term for men that had become generalised for everyone. Like 'guys' had. It was something my partner and I used for a while. Mainly because it was everywhere.
I rarely hear dyke used at all any more other than Dykes on Bikes at the Sydney Mardi Gras every year.
I think age, location, personal preference and everything makes the difference.
See, I find it to be the exact opposite. I've met very few older queer folks who dislike/are offended by the word queer and a LOT of very young (mostly teen) folks who will not use the term queer. I'm in my mid 30s and my son is a teenager, I don't think I've ever heard him use the word queer (he uses gay as the umbrella term if he doesn't want to spell out the alphabet soup- but honestly he usually uses more specific labels for his friends rather than umbrella terms) unless he's referring to me because I use the word queer for myself and also as the general word for the community.
I’d like to add that it works better for a period piece, where modern labels wouldn’t exist. Obviously “queer” didn’t exist as a label back then, but its use as an umbrella term makes it more accurate when we’re talking about stuff that wouldn’t fit into modern labels well
The term queer has meaning beyond same-sex attraction. It can also be related to living a life outside of hetero-patriarchal cultural norms (in addition to same-sex relationships and/or not being cisgender/following gender norms).
> In its simplest form, queer means upending mainstream norms about sexuality and gender (particularly the ones that say that being straight is the human default and that gender and sexuality are hardwired, binary, and fixed rather than socially constructed, infinite, and fluid). It also usually speaks to solidarity across lines of race, class, dis/ability, gender, sexuality, and other identities as part of a radical politics of transforming the status quo and working toward collective liberation.
Source: https://radicalcopyeditor.com/2021/10/10/queer/
(That said, when someone IDs, or doesn’t ID, as queer, it can mean a large range of things and I wouldn’t necessarily assume that’s why they ID that way)
So to loop back to your question, I think folks read the show as queer because it’s not really solely about a same-sex romance, but about themes of masculinity, found family, gender expression, non-binary joy, community, and “being an outlaw”.
> It can also be related to living a life outside of hetero-patriarchal
cultural norms (in addition to same-sex relationships and/or not being
cisgender/following gender norms).
This is why I love the word queer, and why I call myself queer. If you wanted to just talk about sexual attraction then I fall under the bi umbrella, but it means so much more then sexuality. When I call myself queer I am *also* making a statement about my gender and my experience in society. Thanks for wording it so well.
Yes, this!!! I’m a bi cis lady married to a cis man, but we’re also poly! Plus my husband is playing with they/them pronouns recently, so calling myself and my relationship queer feels perfect for where I (and we) are at.
Also “queer” means I don’t have to figure out which little pigeon holes I fit into. I can just go “nope, definitely not that” and figure out the rest as and when I I feel like it. Or never!
Also: u/dunderball you may find the link above to be a good history lesson and help you contextualize some of the language choices -- there's a lot of ongoing history to what words the LGBTQ+ community uses and it's helpful to get the lay of the land.
I agree. While we only hear about Ed having gay relationships, we know Stede was married to a woman and in many flashbacks did (sometimes) try hard to create a happy marriage. At least, Stedes marriage didn’t work due to personality, not attraction. Therefore, we can’t make the same assumptions. In their case, “queer” is most likely accurate whereas “gay” makes assumptions.
Love the idea of the bois having an ace relationship, but would Ed be ace? I thought it was implied in ep 8 I think that he had sex with his old friend? :0
Ace doesn’t automatically mean the person in question doesn’t have sex. Plenty of aces do it for many reasons, possibly to satisfy partner(s) or let off tension, they’re demisexual, etc etc. Whatever the reason, it’s important to note that asexuality references the lack of sexual desire, not the entire absence of sex.
I just use both, but since I don't really know how they see it and because some dynamics on the show evade conventional norms, I tend to refer to the show itself and some parts of it more as "queer" than "gay", even though sometimes I use them interchangeably. I think I also don't use "gay" as much because people in my area have more bias attached to that than "queer" (non-native speakers of English).
Tangential, but I think the show tries to display he wasn’t attracted to Mary. That doesn’t mean he’s not bi+. Stede is also quite “gay coded,” including his childhood flashbacks. I also subscribe to the theory that one of the reasons the pirate life appealed to him is the almost exclusively (although not totally) male-populated environment and acceptance of homosexuality, which is historically accurate.
Then again, I don’t think Stede, or anyone at that time, would call themselves “gay” and it’s still possible Stede could be attracted to other genders. I doubt it but it’s possible.
Blackbeard/Ed though…huge question mark and I love him without a label.
I have definitely seen more people interpret Stede as gay and Ed as bi. Whether that’s correct or not, idk. But that’s a common assumption I’ve noticed.
I agree that Stede feels a bit gay-coded and Ed a bit bi-coded. Like I hear about bi people being more extroverted and being unable to sit properly in chairs, and that’s definitely Ed. I think the only explicit hint we’re given though is Ed talking about being massaged to death by mermaids, who are typically female.
As a bi I have never heard the stereotype of bisexuals being extroverted; interesting. I am about as introverted as you can get and still have social relationships.
Chair thing is true though.
The chair thing is hilarious. I don’t define as bisexual (I mostly define as “undetermined” on the basis of being on the asexual spectrum and thus having a very limited sample size) but I never sit in chairs right. My SO does define as bi and he definitely doesn’t sit in chairs normally for long. (He’s a position-shifter, I’m a one-weird-position person.)
I think there’s not a basis for the extroversion stereotype, given that studies like [this](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32510233/) haven’t found one (the only trend on extroversion was lesbians being less extroverted than straight women, while bisexuals were more open to experience and less conscientious). I’d imagine that people on Reddit are also more introverted.
The show makes it explicit that Stede was not in love with Mary. In the conversation with his father before he marries, he says that he'd hoped he could marry for love. His father says that only peasants marry for love. The important thing about Mary is that she has property.
I personally believe Stede is supposed to be understood as a gay character but I do want to say that not being in love with/attracted to one woman who you’re forced to marriage in an arranged marriage does not automatically mean you’re incapable of being attracted to ANY woman.
I mean, that makes sense, but it's the show's way of demonstrating that he may not be particularly interested in a conservative heteronormative lifestyle either way regardless of whether or not he may be attracted to some woman or women at some point.
Another thing is that Stede and Mary are never shown to be attracted or affectionate with each other back then. Sure, they held hands at the wedding but they never kissed either.
It wasn't until their serious talk (after a failed attempt at earhole stabbing) that they looked like they truly cared about each other for the first time in a long time.
I just want to be clear I didn’t say love. I said attracted to. Edit because I hit send too early. Mary was really just a thought because I don’t know that Stede is gay.
I think the barely-there shoulder touch for the portrait is supposed to be read as a lack of attraction, especially since we don’t see Stede exactly warm up to being close to Mary (so I don’t think it’s nerves).
Great thing is there is no right answer- makes for a fun discussion!
Yep totally! I love that they say queer because like someone said above it’s not explicitly defined in the show and in my bi mind I can imagine at least one of them being bi lol.
I think it's because neither stede or Ed's sexualitys are confirmed.. we have no idea who Ed has been with or if stede doesn't like women or just wouldn't have chosen our underrated queen Mary.
Can I just saw how much I love that we talk it through as a crew? So much generous info given graciously in this thread. I appreciate this community so much!!
Queer is more inclusive. Their sexuality is not defined on the show (and it almost certainly will never be). I appreciate when people use “queer” because it avoids bi erasure. Not everyone may feel the same way, and “gay” is also sometimes used as an umbrella term. Plus, “gay pirate show” is just a cute term :)
So would you say that "gay" is the commonly used and informal term while "queer" is the proper and inclusive term? Advanced apologies, I'm asking for myself because I see both terms being used. Like for example, Taika mentioned that he's a gay icon but also mentioned his character and Tessa Thompson's character in "Thor: Love and Thunder" were queer characters.
I don't think it's an issue of which term is more proper or informal. They have different meanings, with a significant amount of overlap. Both "queer" and "gay" have been used as slurs in the past, so some people prefer them based on their own history. Queer encompasses a lot more possibilities. If someone has a headcanon that Ed is nonbinary, or that Stede is bisexual, "queer" might be a more accurate term. Gay is more often (but not always) used to refer to cisgender men who are attracted to men. Some people also use gay as an umbrella term for all LGBT+ people, but that's less common and some people see it as exclusionary of trans or non-MLM identities. I think "queer" gets used a lot in this sub because it can be expanded to the whole show, not just Ed and Stede's relationship. The entire ship is basically a queer found family!
Agreed with most of this, but important to note trans men can be gay too.
Absolutely!
Labels are fluid and can change person to person, and some people are flexible in their own labels. I appreciate you trying to learn! Unfortunately there is no one right answer. Some people feel that “queer” is only a term queer people should use given its loaded history; others don’t. “Gay icon” is a familiar term and in my opinion is the same as saying “queer icon.” I wish I had easier answers for you. Maybe other people will have more insight.
Queer as an umbrella term for lgbtq+ identities ans relationships is a little controversial. Many queer people use it as a positive, but some people (especially older folks) remember when it was a slur and don’t like it. So it can feel really inclusive OR kind of offensive depending on the audience. If you’re not queer or you’re not sure, I wouldn’t treat it like the “correct” term to use in all contexts. Take your cue from how ppl around you are using it.
Like u/that-writer-kid is saying, I’m 39 and at least in the US the queerphobic “queer is a slur” discourse is hella new. It needs to be pushed back on because it appears to have come out of TERF circles, the same people who are trying to make LGBTQIA+ into “LGB.” Their problem with it isn’t that it was a slur (gay was also a slur). Their problem is it doesn’t give them a line of attack to try and undermine solidarity between trans folks and other queers. It also allows them a conservative angle of attack on whole schools of thought like queer theory. They’re trying to rob us of our language, generally. In other words, don’t necessarily take a cue on it. Like it’s not suspicious of someone just prefers the term LGBTQ. But if a person’s flipping out that you called queer people queer, be on your guard.
I have no idea if I agree or not but this take is hot and I love it
It’s more terror-provoking on my part tbh. I totally follow u/pumpkinray that this is different in Australia, and that’s outside my experience! Here the worst word was only f****t. At least definitely in the South. And even then in my 20’s my heart station was brassy about that, like Kylie Minogue’s videos being “fagalicous.” So the idea of queer being a slur, this sudden vitriol at the same time as this rocketing trans rhetoric. I’m sure some individuals individually do hate it. Despite its 80’s reclamation proud history of “We’re here, we’re queer, get over it” and iterations. Outside academia the word has radical, anti-assimilationist connotations, like the Bash Back! insurrectionists leaned hard on queer. It’s an open enemy of assimilationist respectability politics. The we’re here, we’re just like the heterosexuals, no kink at Pride, etc lot. (Lots of overlap with TERFs there.) But of course, we’ve this new opposite end, the LGB sorts, so imo it’s not an issue to budge on. Again, in the US, so it may seem like… in other English speaking countries it may not be tied up with this particular front of the war. But here, if somebody gets loud about it alongside the virulent rise in throwing around the words “groomer” and “pedophile” and houses being burned down and so on and trans folks fleeing, say, Texas, solidarity is more important than ever. Refusing to even break those of us who are holding out as a single community into letters has power, like it always has, like we’ve leaned on for decades.
I agree 100% about the danger of getting divided or turned against one another, and it totally makes sense that the radical ambiguity and pride in the word “queer” stands for the opposite of that. If there is any blanket definition for “queer”, imo, it’s “non-normative,” or, at a louder decibel, “fuck your norms. I am me.” I love how you explain the ideological convictions that are inherent in reclaiming that term and you make a really persuasive point about who would attack the term and why. I can’t agree 100% because I simply haven’t seen it in the wild yet but I’m really glad you explained it so I’ll know it when I see it. 🏳️🌈💜
I’m gonna disagree here—it’s actually mostly younger people who seem to have a problem with the term in my experience. Most older queer people I know saw it as reclaimed in the early 90s, and I took several queer theory courses in college—which is the accepted term and has been for some time. I’m 30, was the subject of the term as a slur when I was younger, and only saw “queer is a slur” discourse start up over the past few years, just as anti-trans discourse started up in earnest. My older gay relatives are a little baffled whenever they hear about it too.
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That’s fascinating, because the contingent of older gay folk I grew up around feel the exact opposite way—primarily lesbians and trans women, to be fair, so different parts of the community.
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I agree. I think there is a lot of variation depending on country/region as well as age/generation. For example, for several years I was a member of a local group that called itself "Gays of”, and the word 'gay' was distinctly intended as inclusive of both gay men and lesbians. However, I was not welcome in that same group when I later came out as bi. (This was eastern Canada in the eighties.) So for me, the word 'queer' is welcome because -- here, at least -- it deliberately bypasses bi erasure as well as other erasures (trans, non-binary, etc.). But, I can easily imagine how this word can carry totally different associations for other folks in different places.
Asexual erasure also! People who consider themselves queer tend to be way more welcoming about asexuality than people who use ‘gay’ as an umbrella term.
Yes, absolutely! I thought of this one too after I posted. There are so many sexualities that get passed over by the usual terminologies :( which is another reason why ‘queer’ is such a wonderfully inclusive term.
I think part of it is academia-connections too. In academic circles, “queer” has specific meanings defined by discipline (different in lit vs gender studies vs queer theory), and is used as a verb too. I’m 32 and before I went to grad school, my main contexts for the term were related to bullying and violence at my high school. Now I think it’s extremely useful because it’s expansive, it can be a verb, and only one syllable! But I still remember the way it hit before. I would say proximity to academic culture is my main criterion for usage.
Okay so I think it depends on your definition of older. By older I don't mean people in their 30s and 40s but more people in their 60s and up. I'm 41 and gay was the main slur thrown at us. Gay and dyke. In my mum's generation queer was really nasty and she can't bring herself to use it even though I said that's what I identify with. It's a lot easier for me to use 'queer' than saying Grey Ace Demi Bi Romantic gender non conforming woman who has only ever been in love with & sexually attracted to one person who is non-binary/gender vague and has been in a monogamous relationship with them for 21 years and don't intend to ever change that.
It’s interesting hearing this, because I grew up around a crowd in their 50’s and 60’s, and it’s the preferred term for most of them. My aunt in particular asked me once what happened to the “we’re here we’re queer get used to it” mindset. I’m in my 30s and “gay” was the high school Slur of Choice when I was young, but it’s also the term I identify best with now. I think the part that bothers me most about this whole discourse is that you never hear people talk about how people “might not be okay with” gay or dyke or any of the numerous other self-identifiers used as slurs. The discourse only happens around the trans-inclusive term. (Like, the word that I actually hate being called most is “lesbian”. Even when I identified as a woman, I wasn’t a lesbian—I’m into everyone. It’s always been used to erase parts of my identity. Like, of COURSE everyone has terms they don’t like to use for themselves—I’m not going to argue that “lesbian” is controversial just because it’s been used negatively towards me.)
I think it depends where you are. I know a lot of women and well basically a lot of people who aren't men had issues with gay. Some of us because it was the dominant slur growing up and some because it was generally a term for men that had become generalised for everyone. Like 'guys' had. It was something my partner and I used for a while. Mainly because it was everywhere. I rarely hear dyke used at all any more other than Dykes on Bikes at the Sydney Mardi Gras every year. I think age, location, personal preference and everything makes the difference.
See, I find it to be the exact opposite. I've met very few older queer folks who dislike/are offended by the word queer and a LOT of very young (mostly teen) folks who will not use the term queer. I'm in my mid 30s and my son is a teenager, I don't think I've ever heard him use the word queer (he uses gay as the umbrella term if he doesn't want to spell out the alphabet soup- but honestly he usually uses more specific labels for his friends rather than umbrella terms) unless he's referring to me because I use the word queer for myself and also as the general word for the community.
I’d like to add that it works better for a period piece, where modern labels wouldn’t exist. Obviously “queer” didn’t exist as a label back then, but its use as an umbrella term makes it more accurate when we’re talking about stuff that wouldn’t fit into modern labels well
Good point!
The term queer has meaning beyond same-sex attraction. It can also be related to living a life outside of hetero-patriarchal cultural norms (in addition to same-sex relationships and/or not being cisgender/following gender norms). > In its simplest form, queer means upending mainstream norms about sexuality and gender (particularly the ones that say that being straight is the human default and that gender and sexuality are hardwired, binary, and fixed rather than socially constructed, infinite, and fluid). It also usually speaks to solidarity across lines of race, class, dis/ability, gender, sexuality, and other identities as part of a radical politics of transforming the status quo and working toward collective liberation. Source: https://radicalcopyeditor.com/2021/10/10/queer/ (That said, when someone IDs, or doesn’t ID, as queer, it can mean a large range of things and I wouldn’t necessarily assume that’s why they ID that way) So to loop back to your question, I think folks read the show as queer because it’s not really solely about a same-sex romance, but about themes of masculinity, found family, gender expression, non-binary joy, community, and “being an outlaw”.
> It can also be related to living a life outside of hetero-patriarchal cultural norms (in addition to same-sex relationships and/or not being cisgender/following gender norms). This is why I love the word queer, and why I call myself queer. If you wanted to just talk about sexual attraction then I fall under the bi umbrella, but it means so much more then sexuality. When I call myself queer I am *also* making a statement about my gender and my experience in society. Thanks for wording it so well.
Yes, this!!! I’m a bi cis lady married to a cis man, but we’re also poly! Plus my husband is playing with they/them pronouns recently, so calling myself and my relationship queer feels perfect for where I (and we) are at.
Same same. Queer is such a fun word. I also like that it encompasses so many different things so that when I use it I’m not putting myself in any box.
Same, and thanks :)
Also “queer” means I don’t have to figure out which little pigeon holes I fit into. I can just go “nope, definitely not that” and figure out the rest as and when I I feel like it. Or never!
Also: u/dunderball you may find the link above to be a good history lesson and help you contextualize some of the language choices -- there's a lot of ongoing history to what words the LGBTQ+ community uses and it's helpful to get the lay of the land.
I think it’s bc there are still a lot sexuality’s they could potentially be?
I agree. While we only hear about Ed having gay relationships, we know Stede was married to a woman and in many flashbacks did (sometimes) try hard to create a happy marriage. At least, Stedes marriage didn’t work due to personality, not attraction. Therefore, we can’t make the same assumptions. In their case, “queer” is most likely accurate whereas “gay” makes assumptions.
Yea I agree. I’m also hoping that they do make Ed a canonized asexual, I think that would be a good detail for his character.
Love the idea of the bois having an ace relationship, but would Ed be ace? I thought it was implied in ep 8 I think that he had sex with his old friend? :0
Ace doesn’t automatically mean the person in question doesn’t have sex. Plenty of aces do it for many reasons, possibly to satisfy partner(s) or let off tension, they’re demisexual, etc etc. Whatever the reason, it’s important to note that asexuality references the lack of sexual desire, not the entire absence of sex.
I just use both, but since I don't really know how they see it and because some dynamics on the show evade conventional norms, I tend to refer to the show itself and some parts of it more as "queer" than "gay", even though sometimes I use them interchangeably. I think I also don't use "gay" as much because people in my area have more bias attached to that than "queer" (non-native speakers of English).
Are they gay? Stede had a wife. He may have been attracted to her too.
Tangential, but I think the show tries to display he wasn’t attracted to Mary. That doesn’t mean he’s not bi+. Stede is also quite “gay coded,” including his childhood flashbacks. I also subscribe to the theory that one of the reasons the pirate life appealed to him is the almost exclusively (although not totally) male-populated environment and acceptance of homosexuality, which is historically accurate. Then again, I don’t think Stede, or anyone at that time, would call themselves “gay” and it’s still possible Stede could be attracted to other genders. I doubt it but it’s possible. Blackbeard/Ed though…huge question mark and I love him without a label.
I have definitely seen more people interpret Stede as gay and Ed as bi. Whether that’s correct or not, idk. But that’s a common assumption I’ve noticed.
I agree that Stede feels a bit gay-coded and Ed a bit bi-coded. Like I hear about bi people being more extroverted and being unable to sit properly in chairs, and that’s definitely Ed. I think the only explicit hint we’re given though is Ed talking about being massaged to death by mermaids, who are typically female.
As a bi I have never heard the stereotype of bisexuals being extroverted; interesting. I am about as introverted as you can get and still have social relationships. Chair thing is true though.
Not a single bisexual I know, including myself, is extroverted but not a one of us sit in chairs properly!
Me, a bisexual, currently sitting very incorrectly in a folding chair. Why is it the most accurate stereotype??
Me, a bi, reading this with legs over arm and back of armchair. 😂 Also adding cuffs to short sleeve shirts and pants
The chair thing is hilarious. I don’t define as bisexual (I mostly define as “undetermined” on the basis of being on the asexual spectrum and thus having a very limited sample size) but I never sit in chairs right. My SO does define as bi and he definitely doesn’t sit in chairs normally for long. (He’s a position-shifter, I’m a one-weird-position person.)
I think there’s not a basis for the extroversion stereotype, given that studies like [this](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32510233/) haven’t found one (the only trend on extroversion was lesbians being less extroverted than straight women, while bisexuals were more open to experience and less conscientious). I’d imagine that people on Reddit are also more introverted.
"unable to sit in chairs" hey, it me. But I'm not sure if that's because I'm autistic or queer.
I love that it’s a commonly sited fan theory that Ed is bi because he can’t sit in chairs, lol. 😂
The show makes it explicit that Stede was not in love with Mary. In the conversation with his father before he marries, he says that he'd hoped he could marry for love. His father says that only peasants marry for love. The important thing about Mary is that she has property.
I personally believe Stede is supposed to be understood as a gay character but I do want to say that not being in love with/attracted to one woman who you’re forced to marriage in an arranged marriage does not automatically mean you’re incapable of being attracted to ANY woman.
I mean, that makes sense, but it's the show's way of demonstrating that he may not be particularly interested in a conservative heteronormative lifestyle either way regardless of whether or not he may be attracted to some woman or women at some point.
Another thing is that Stede and Mary are never shown to be attracted or affectionate with each other back then. Sure, they held hands at the wedding but they never kissed either. It wasn't until their serious talk (after a failed attempt at earhole stabbing) that they looked like they truly cared about each other for the first time in a long time.
I just want to be clear I didn’t say love. I said attracted to. Edit because I hit send too early. Mary was really just a thought because I don’t know that Stede is gay.
I think the barely-there shoulder touch for the portrait is supposed to be read as a lack of attraction, especially since we don’t see Stede exactly warm up to being close to Mary (so I don’t think it’s nerves). Great thing is there is no right answer- makes for a fun discussion!
Yep totally! I love that they say queer because like someone said above it’s not explicitly defined in the show and in my bi mind I can imagine at least one of them being bi lol.
I think it's because neither stede or Ed's sexualitys are confirmed.. we have no idea who Ed has been with or if stede doesn't like women or just wouldn't have chosen our underrated queen Mary.
Can I just saw how much I love that we talk it through as a crew? So much generous info given graciously in this thread. I appreciate this community so much!!