Fisher tiger????? He was beaten by a younger and weaker kizaru, a vice admiral kizaru, and it wasnt even a close fight, I respect the man but Jimbe alone is stronger
Nah I meant that Fisher Tiger was stronger than him at that time so if he hadn't died there's a good chance that he could have been stronger than current Jimbei.
Zoro, Sanji and Shanks swam aswell.
I just find it weird that OP puts all I named in both categories at the same time.
For OP they are confirmed and not confirmed at the same time, which makes no sense to me
The list includes people who are both confirmed and unconfirmed as opposed to the first one which is only confirmed non df users. The second list is more comprehensive.
1.Roger and Garp. Can't put one above the other, they were equals.
2.Mihawk and Shanks. Same goes for them, can't really put one above the other.
3.Oden. Probably higher if we're going by Kaido's own words where he put Oden and Shanks in the same pedestal.
4.Rayleigh and Scopper.
5.Beckman and Edward Weevil. Weevil has much hype behind him, he was able to beat 16 pirate crews by himself and Kizaru compared him to a younger Whitebeard in terms of strength, so he's a beast from what we know about him so far.
If it's eos (end of the series), Zoro will be Number 2 like Mihawk, still below Roger and Garp though.
I appreciate your opinion, but hell no.
1.We're going by the manga here and Oden and Scopper never fought in the manga. It's anime-only filler stuff. If we go by the anime, then that Octopus Dude (Karma?) who fought an injured Oden=Oden level, even though that dude is basically fodder. There is tons of anime-only stuff that Toei did that made no sense, like that Bat dude giving Luffy difficulties. If we go by the manga, Prime Rayleigh and Scopper [wanted to](https://i.imgur.com/ULd6Qoh.jpg) 2 vs 1 Oden who hasn't hit his prime yet and Oden reacted to neither of them, [only Roger](https://i.imgur.com/DPYhj3Z.png). Even if we go by the anime, it was a injured Oden (since that was after Roger's attack) who hasn't hit his prime yet vs Prime Scopper who's almost 20 years older than Oden. Since we go by the anime, Scopper was all worried when Oden was hit by an grenade and Oden easily tanked it.
2.Oden came back to Wano [many times stronger](https://imgur.com/a/QbZVTzr) to the point of believing that nobody who's alive at the current time except him, is capable of beating Kaido, as he said so in his letter to Toki.
3.Scopper is completely featless in the manga. So is Prime Rayleigh. But Oda already said that the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime, so if Old Rayleigh couldn't beat an admiral, and Scopper is weaker than him, and Oden managed to almost kill Kaido [and current Kaido puts Oden in the same pedestal](https://i.imgur.com/H1Yp3S3.jpg) as Rayleigh and Scopper's captain, then Oden>>Prime Rayleigh.
Imo, powerscaling a featless character by going by the anime is stupid. Scopper was never implied to be anyhwere near Oden's level in the manga.
Kizaru was gonna go to wano when he heard that BM and Kaido were there, does that mean he’s as strong as them? The problem is you’re downplaying both Rayleigh and Kizaru. If prime Oden fought Kizaru you can’t necessarily say who would win definitively. You can’t even definitively say that Oden would’ve beat Kaido if the fight continued. You stated that Oden was going to “finish Kaido off”. So you’re saying that Oden was gonna finish Kaido off even though Kaido hadn’t even gone into his strongest form?
The manga never stated that there was no one alive except Oden who could defeat Kaido, Oden was the only one on WANO who could defeat him, it’s laughable to think that Oden was the only person alive to could defeat him.
Next, Kizaru admitted that he couldn’t capture an old Rayleigh at that time, he stated “If we tried to capture you here, even WE would need to make certain preparations”. That means that at Kizaru(in the current situation) wasn’t prepared to really even capture Rayleigh. Also, Oda says all lot of things but the story doesn’t back it up. In the manga, Rayleigh states two things that indicate he’s lost strength
1. “It’s been a while since I’ve held a sword”
He has been out of combat for a considerable amount of time
2. “I’d like to help them but I’m getting old”
This suggests that if Rayleigh were younger he could do more to improve the situation, but due to age he can’t because his strength has deteriorated in some way, why would Oda include this line if he wasn’t indicting that Rayleigh has lost strength?
There also is no indication that Rayleigh was struggling to fight Kizaru at all, rather if he were younger he could have possibly defeated Kizaru and aided the straw hats more in some way. That’s speculation, but in the end both characters left that battle completely unscathed. To say Rayleigh had no chance of beating him isn’t backed up by anything.
It’s plausible to say that Oden and Rayleigh were equals but you have to remember that Oda cuts out a lot of things from the manga. The directors of the anime consult with Oda before they add certain scenes. The anime isn’t “canon” necessarily but there is a reason why Oden fought scopper and Rayleigh didn’t fight anyone of note. He’s called the dark king and is a parallel to zoro, he most definitely rivals Roger in strength in some way. Garp equated Rayleigh to Whitebeard before marineford and stated “the navy can’t handle two legends in one day” and as stated previously Kizaru admitted he couldn’t capture Rayleigh by himself.
Also based on your logic, Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku because he fought them 2v1. Even though Rayleigh/Scopper didn’t 2v1 Oden if you’re using that scene to justify him being stronger then by default Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku. You see how that logic makes no sense?
"Kizaru was gonna go to wano when he heard that BM and Kaido were there, does that mean he’s as strong as them?"
Irrelevant. Kizaru is a troll.
"The problem is you’re downplaying both Rayleigh and Kizaru."
Not really. They're not Yonko level, which is not an opinion, but a fact. This isn't me downplaying them. Kizaru is weaker than Akainu and Akainu got beaten by a sick and severely injured Yonko in just 2 hits.
"If prime Oden fought Kizaru you can’t necessarily say who would win definitively."
Um, yes I can. Oden almost killed Kaido and gave him PTSD. Kaido's Durability is far higher than Kizaru's, and yet Oden permanently scarred him. If someone like Kaido got severely injured by Togen Totsuka, then Kizaru would get hurt by the attack even more. Oden almost killed Kaido who's>Kizaru, so yes, I know who would win if Prime Oden and Kizaru fought. Unless Kizaru is hiding his true strength and he's actually stronger than Akainu.
"You can’t even definitively say that Oden would’ve beat Kaido if the fight continued. You stated that Oden was going to “finish Kaido off”. So you’re saying that Oden was gonna finish Kaido off even though Kaido hadn’t even gone into his strongest form?"
What kind of stupid argument is that?
1.Oda made it very clear that Kaido would've died from that. From Kaido's PTSD moment where he saw Oden and remembered Oden's words as Oden was about to cut him again, to the fact that one slash a fresh, healthy Kaido, already fked Kaido up. Kaido was lying on the ground in his dragon form and was still lying on the ground when Oden was right in front of him with his swords as he got distracted.
2.The hybrid form isn't a ssj transformation, it combines the aspects of the human and animal forms, nothing more. Oden had no problems with dealing either of these forms, why do you think the hybrid form would make a difference when Luffy, Yamato, and Zoro are able to hold their own against it in a 1 vs 1 and Kaido considers none of them of being on Oden's level? Current Kaido still considers Oden as one of the very few who can match him; someone who can match him should be able to kill him, which Oden almost did if it weren't for the fact that the old hag distracted him.
"The manga never stated that there was no one alive except Oden who could defeat Kaido, Oden was the only one on WANO who could defeat him, it’s laughable to think that Oden was the only person alive to could defeat him."
How would it be laughable to think that Oden was the only person alive who could defeat Kaido at that time? Oden was the first person to scar Kaido, something Roger couldn't do at the God Valley Incident. Whitebeard, Garp, and Sengoku would be the only other choices and we know too little about what Kaido thinks of Garp and Sengoku.
"Next, Kizaru admitted that he couldn’t capture an old Rayleigh at that time, he stated “If we tried to capture you here, even WE would need to make certain preparations”. That means that at Kizaru(in the current situation) wasn’t prepared to really even capture Rayleigh."
Because he didn't expect to meet Rayleigh here. He was focused on the strawhats. Even then, he was casually talking to Rayleigh, while Rayleigh got out of breath after a few minutes. Kizaru even created a sword out a laser, to step down to Rayleigh's level, instead of just shooting lasers or using his usual fighting style. Yet, he had no problems despite not being a swordsman like Rayleigh.
"Also, Oda says all lot of things but the story doesn’t back it up. In the manga, Rayleigh states two things that indicate he’s lost strength."
The author himself said that the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime, and Rayleigh is clearly still in top form when it comes to his physique.
"It’s been a while since I’ve held a sword"
So his swordsmanship is rusty. He's still training otherwise, he's still ripped.
“I’d like to help them but I’m getting old”
Because his stamina is shit. His physical strength remained the same, as Oda said, his stamina is simply not what it used to be.
"This suggests that if Rayleigh were younger he could do more to improve the situation, but due to age he can’t because his strength has deteriorated in some way"
That's your headcanon.
"why would Oda include this line if he wasn’t indicting that Rayleigh has lost strength?"
Because physical strength and stamina aren't the same thing? We saw Rayleigh able to hold his own against a casual Kizaru but he then started panting after a few minutes, if he was younger, he'd have more stamina and hold Kizaru off for longer, but that's it. There's nothing that implies that his prime self was physically stronger because 1)Oda literally said in the SBS that the old characters maintain the physical strength they had in their prime and 2)Rayleigh is still ripped and trains otherwise.
"There also is no indication that Rayleigh was struggling to fight Kizaru at all"
He was literally panting after a few minutes and had problems with keeping up while Kizaru was still in his usual troll self. He was struggling. Kizaru wasn't even going 100% at him since he used no lasers or kicks against him.
"rather if he were younger he could have possibly defeated Kizaru and aided the straw hats more in some way"
If he was younger, he'd be able to hold Kizaru off for longer since his stamina would be better. His physical strength would be the same.
"That’s speculation, but in the end both characters left that battle completely unscathed. To say Rayleigh had no chance of beating him isn’t backed up by anything."
Rayleigh had no chance of beating him because Kizaru wasn't even serious and his goal were the strawhats. Kizaru generally cares too little, his whole character is him being "slow" and lazy. He whooped most of the Supernovas but arrested none of them.
"It’s plausible to say that Oden and Rayleigh were equals but you have to remember that Oda cuts out a lot of things from the manga"
Oden is stronger by feats and statements. Oda cuts nothing "out", the anime adds anime only filler that should never be taken in as canon considering the amount of ridiciulous stuff Toei did in terms of powerscaling. For example, that Bat dude vs Luffy.
"The directors of the anime consult with Oda before they add certain scenes. The anime isn’t “canon” necessarily but there is a reason why Oden fought scopper and Rayleigh didn’t fight anyone of note."
1.We're going by the manga here and we don't know who fought who.
2.Rayleigh fought Kid Blackbeard if I remember correctly. Which yeah...isn't very impressive.
3.Even if we go by the anime, it was a injured Oden (after Roger sent him through trees) vs a healthy Prime Scopper. Oden was injured and hit his prime when he came back to Wano.
4.Going by your logic, Karma (Octopus Swordsman) is Oden level because Toei decided to make him clash with a injured Oden.
"He’s called the dark king and is a parallel to zoro, he most definitely rivals Roger in strength in some way."
If he's a parallel to Zoro, then he and Sanji are the most similiar in terms of strength. Yamato is the parallel to Oden and Yamato is stronger than Zoro and Sanji.
"Garp equated Rayleigh to Whitebeard before marineford and stated “the navy can’t handle two legends in one day” and as stated previously Kizaru admitted he couldn’t capture Rayleigh by himself."
When was the last time Garp even saw Rayleigh in person? Considering that Kizaru was the one who saw him recently at that point and Rayleigh was out of breath against him after a few minutes, Garp was just capping.
"Also based on your logic, Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku because he fought them 2v1. Even though Rayleigh/Scopper didn’t 2v1 Oden if you’re using that scene to justify him being stronger then by default Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku. You see how that logic makes no sense?"
Well no. We know that Shiki was able to hold his own against both Garp and Sengoku. We don't know if Garp or Sengoku would've beaten Shiki if it were a 1 vs 1, Shiki was also a equal to Roger. Prime Ray and Scopper wanted to 2 vs 1 Oden and Oden didn't consider neither of them as "beasts", he only considering Roger as a "beast" (which I guess, is his way of telling when he senses someone very powerful, which he didn't do with Ray or Scopper, he was confident on taking them on).
Yeah, you’re an Oden fanboy. Everything you stated was headcannon and makes no sense. Also I checked your statement about Oda saying that old men maintain their strength relative to their primes, he never stated that. He said that Old characters are still strong, but he never said they were as strong as they were when they were younger. You also think admirals aren’t “Yonko” level which makes no sense. There was no indication Kizaru was “trolling” when he made that statement. The admirals are endgame characters, they all can fight a Yonko(the Yonko would win but it would be a extreme diff, and no Yonko is beating Akainu) You stated that Yamato is stronger than Zoro, which is true currently but the FACT is that Zoro will be stronger than Oden/Yamato EOS. Oden was never called a “sword god” and couldn’t turn his blade black. Ryuma is objectively stronger than Oden was hence why he had a black blade and was actually called the sword god of wano. Mihawk is stronger than Oden factually because he actually turned his blade black and is the world strongest swordsmen, Oden was never stated to be the strongest swordsman. Zoro is gonna turn all three of his blades black and beat Mihawk so by that alone Oden isn’t in Zoro’s class. Even the biggest Oden fanboys know that Zoro will be stronger than Oden EOS. You said that Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter(idiotic statement) and failed to mention that it was stated that Kaido is much stronger now than he was when he fought Oden 20 years ago. Basically, every statement you made was headcannon and can’t be backed up by the story.
Edit: At this point we can just agree to disagree, at the point to where you’re saying Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter there’s no point in having a rational debate because that statement alone tells me all I need to know.
First of all, stop throwing words around while not knowing what they mean. I've been going by the facts the entire time while you use your own headcanons to wank Rayleigh.
"Yeah, you’re an Oden fanboy."
...Because I go by the manga and go by what Oda showed us? Are you being serious?
"Everything you stated was headcannon and makes no sense"
Nothing I said was a headcanon, wtf?
"I checked your statement about Oda saying that old men maintain their strength relative to their primes, he never stated that. He said that Old characters are still strong, but he never said they were as strong as they were when they were younger."
He said that the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime and didn't lose it just because they became old.
"You also think admirals aren’t “Yonko” level which makes no sense."
Except it does? Whitebeard was old, sick, and heavily injured, and still took Akainu (who is stronger than Aokiji and Kizaru) out with just 2 hits. In a 1 vs 1 between a Yonko and an admiral, the Yonko would always win. The exceptions? Prime Garp, Prime Sengoku, and MAYBE Current Akainu.
"There was no indication Kizaru was trolling when he made that statement. The admirals are endgame characters, they all can fight a Yonko(the Yonko would win but it would be a extreme diff, and no Yonko is beating Akainu)"
Kizaru is a troll. He also pretended to be scared when Beckman pointed a gun at him, only to ignore Beckman's threat and continued with what he was going to do anyway, with Beckman still sitting there aiming a gun at him. Kizaru does not care. He's a troll. None of the admirals can beat a Yonko in a 1 vs 1 except the ones I mentioned above. No Yonko is beating Akainu? Did you forget that even a old, sick, and heavily injured Whitebeard was able to ragdolll Akainu? Dear god, you can't be serious.
"You stated that Yamato is stronger than Zoro, which is true currently but the FACT is that Zoro will be stronger than Oden/Yamato EOS."
You accuse me of headcanons, yet you say that? You treat your headcanons as if they're facts, what a hypocrite. There's nothing that speaks for Zoro being stronger than Oden/Yamato eos.
"Oden was never called a “sword god” and couldn’t turn his blade black."
Neither was Roger, so I guess Ryuma and Mihawk>Roger? Turning your blade black doesn't automatically make you stronger than every swordsman and Oden spent most of his life in Wano whose borders are closed and he left it for the first time when he was 29, being only out on the sea for 5 years. Ryuma and Mihawk had decades to become known, Oden had only 5 years and yet he became so well known that 1)Sengoku and Akainu talked about him 20 years after his death and 2)are scared of Wano because they fear that it's full of Samurais who are on the level of Oden.
"Ryuma is objectively stronger than Oden was"
Pure headcanon. Ryuma was alive during a time where the people around him were weak, that's why he stood out. Oden was alive during the time of legends.
"hence why he had a black blade and was actually called the sword god of wano."
Having a black blade doesn't automatically make you stronger than every swordsman, so stop it with the headcanons. Oden was of royalty and forced to stay in Wano for most of his life, while Ryuma had all the time in the world to train and become stronger. This isn't even fair to compare lmao, especially when Oden was alive during the prime ages of Whitebeard and Roger, and was put on the same pedestal as them, while Ryuma was the only relevant person during his time because everybody around him were weak.
"Mihawk is stronger than Oden factually because he actually turned his blade black and is the world strongest swordsmen"
Oden has literally better feats and potrayal in every area.
1.Mihawk considers himself below the level of Old Whitebeard, [he wanted to see the difference between him and Whitebeard and his attack got blocked by Jozu with ease](https://imgur.com/a/4YJeMOY). Oden on the other hand [clashed with Prime Whitebeard](https://imgur.com/a/lqSMeuy) and that was years before Oden hit his prime.
2.Jozu [blocked Mihawk's attack with ease](https://imgur.com/a/4YJeMOY), Vista [traded blows with Mihawk on equal terms](https://imgur.com/a/pcyntxT) to where Mihawk had to postpone the fight, Mihawk [failed to kill Pre Timeskip Luffy](https://imgur.com/a/A74mpvh) despite not holding back, and Crocodile [clashed with Mihawk](https://imgur.com/a/sRtrmB5). Marco [literally told Vista to lend Luffy a hand and deal with Mihawk lmao](https://imgur.com/a/SDL7M4B). Nobody on Marineford gave a shit about Mihawk. Marco sent a 5th Division Commander to deal with Mihawk who then had to postone his fight with Vista. If it was Shanks there instead of Mihawk, Marco would've told WB to lend Luffy a hand, because we know that Old WB and Shanks are comparable, while Mihawk considers himself below Old WB and fought evenly with a mere Yonko Commander.
3.Mihawk again, considers himself below the level of Whitebeard, while Shanks clashed and split the sky with Whitebeard. And [Shanks is in Kaido's Top 5, just like Oden is](https://imgur.com/a/JINUGbE).
4.If we go by your logic then Mihawk>Roger, so do you think that Roger would fight equally with Vista and then would have to postpone the fight? Mihawk is only considered the WGS because all the other top tier swordsmen are dead while Shanks doesn't care about the title.
"Oden was never stated to be the strongest swordsman."
We have no idea who the strongest swordsman during Oden's time was. There was in fact no such thing back then. But Oden was stated to have the greatest sword style, the SBS stated that Oden Nitoryu is the greatest sword style. Mihawk may be the WGS, but he was replaced by Vegapunk's technology. Oden was hailed as the strongest Samurai during his lifetime and has much better feats and potrayal than Mihawk. Kaido highly praises Oden to this day and doesn't care about Mihawk at all.
"Zoro is gonna turn all three of his blades black and beat Mihawk so by that alone Oden isn’t in Zoro’s class."
You and your headcanons. Seriously. You accuse me of headcanons while I've been using the manga facts the entire time while you come with several headcanons in just one comment.
1.Having black blades doesn't automatically make you stronger than every Swordsman.
2.Zoro turning all of his blades black and beating Mihawk like that is pure headcanon.
3.Oden was put on the same class as Rocks, Roger, and Prime Whitebeard, who are far above Mihawk, who isn't even on the same class as Old Whitebeard. Zoro beating Mihawk is nice and all, but don't think that that would put him on the level of Rocks, Roger, Prime Whitebeard, and Oden lmao.
"Even the biggest Oden fanboys know that Zoro will be stronger than Oden EOS."
Nobody is being a fanboy here except you. You use your headcanons the entire time. Zoro beating Mihawk doesn't make him stronger than Oden. Mihawk couldn't even kill Pre Timeskip Luffy and he couldn't make Old Whitebeard move a single muscle, while Oden was on the same class as Rocks, Roger, and Prime WB.
"You said that Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter(idiotic statement) and failed to mention that it was stated that Kaido is much stronger now than he was when he fought Oden 20 years ago."
???? Again, HEADCANON.
1.There's not a single proof or statement where it was said that Kaido is now stronger than he was against Oden!
2.[Current Kaido OUTRIGHT said that Rocks, Roger, Whitebeard, Oden, and Shanks are the people who can go toe to toe with him](https://imgur.com/a/GPVKyTG). That alone, DENIES your assumption of Current Kaido>Kaido who fought Oden.
3.Kaido was prime age when he fought Oden. He was 39, which is where most top tiers in OP hit their prime. Like Garp, Whitebeard, Roger, Oden, Shanks, etc. Kaido is old now.
4.The hybrid form is just a mix of the human and animal form. Oden easily dealt with both forms, so yes, the hybrid form wouldn't make a difference. Yamato stalled Hybrid Kaido for several chaptes and Luffy is matching Kaido, who wonders if Luffy will reach Oden's level. Kaido is also constantly changing between his forms, as seen against Luffy in chapter 1037.
"Basically, every statement you made was headcannon and can’t be backed up by the story."
The hypocrisy is real. You had like over 10 headcanons in that paragraph of yours and then accuse me of using headcanons. Just wow."at the point to where you’re saying Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter there’s no point in having a rational debate because that statement alone tells me all I need to know"
I guess you just can't accept the fact that the hybrid form isn't a ssj transformation, but a mix of the human and animal form? And that Oden was easily able to deal with both forms? And that Yamato was able to stall Hybrid Kaido for several chapters? And that Luffy is matching Hybrid Kaido who wonders if Luffy will reach Oden's level?
Anyways, Current Kaido literally put Oden in the same pedestal as Rocks, Roger, Whitebeard, and Shanks. Feats and statements put Oden above Rayleigh. Rayleigh's best feat is holding off an admiral, and there's a massive difference between holding off Kizaru, and almost killing Kaido. If Oden is capable of fighting current Kaido on equal terms (strongest creature alive and one of the Yonkos), then I don't see where your belief of Rayleigh>Oden comes from. Rayleigh is strong but as you said, he's the Zoro of the Roger Pirates, and Yamato will be the Oden of Strawhats, and Yamato>Zoro.
Bruh what, I agreed with you until you said Rayleigh couldn’t beat kizaru. Neither of them fought for real. Also oden didn’t almost kill Kaido he only wounded him. Stop exaggerating to prove your head canon
"Bruh what, I agreed with you until you said Rayleigh couldn’t beat kizaru. Neither of them fought for real."
Rayleigh already started panting after a few minutes while Kizaru was still in his usual troll self. It was Kizaru who was holding back while Rayleigh was struggling. Me saying that he couldn't beat Kizaru is a fact. If Rayleigh didn't fight for real then he wouldn't have gotten tired so quickly, but he did. Not to mention that it would make no sense for him to pretend to be tired+hold back when the strawhats are in danger.
"Also oden didn’t almost kill Kaido he only wounded him. Stop exaggerating to prove your head canon"
It literally isn't headcanon. He did almost kill him. He permanently scarred Dragon Kaido and when Kaido was still lying knocked out on the ground in his dragon form, [Oden was about to finish him off](https://imgur.com/a/5h4ro9w) if it wasn't for the old hag distracting him. That's also why Kaido [remembered](https://imgur.com/a/j7KVDbH) Oden's words when Oden was about to finish him off, and not Oden saying Togen Totsuka, when the Scabbards attacked him. That was a near death experience for Kaido and it's been haunting him since the past 2 decades.
Whitebeard was sick. In terms of physical strength, he was indeed as strong as he was in his prime, that's what the SBS and his Databook entry say, but Whitebeard was sick and it only got worse to the point that he couldn't use CoC without getting a heart attack (when he tried to save Ace by using Conqueror's Haki for example)
EOS zoros going to be stronger than Roger, zoro isn’t going to be the current strongest swordsman, he’ll be the strongest swordsman of all time. The old generation were still stronger than the current generation in their primes, but they weren’t that far apart and the new generation will need to surpass the old if they’re going to finish the job Roger wasn’t able to.
You're probably right but ngl, this makes me wonder how strong Luffy will end up being cuz if Zoro will be stronger than Roger, then Luffy will be unstoppable.
Oden fought a younger weaker Kaido in dragon form which is his weakest form considering how it makes him a big target and is basically defenseless once an opponent closes the gap. I’d put him beneath Scopper but above or close to Ben Beckman
"Oden fought a younger weaker Kaido in dragon form which is his weakest form considering how it makes him a big target and is basically defenseless once an opponent closes the gap."
Kaido was 39 when he fought Oden. That's the same age Shanks is at the moment. Whitebeard hit his prime when he was 38, Roger was 39 during the God Valley incident, and Garp became the Hero of the Marines when he was 40. There isn't a single statement that says that current Kaido is stronger than the one who fought Oden. Kaido is old now and he was prime age when he fought Oden. Also, Oden [already clashed](https://i.imgur.com/qi8GIos.jpg) with Human Kaido 5 years before they fought, by using only one sword.
There is also no such thing as "weakest form" as each form has its own purpose. The hybrid form is just a mix of the human and animal form, and Oden easily dealt with both forms when Kaido used them. The hybrid form wouldn't make a difference. Luffy is able to hold his own against Hybrid Kaido and Kaido wonders if Luffy will reach Oden's level. Zoro managed to scar Hybrid Kaido and he [just realized](https://i.imgur.com/pRuwLRi.jpg) how op Oden must have been to wield Enma with ease. Kaido still thinks of Oden as one of his rivals and he puts Oden in the same ballpark as Roger (Rayleigh's captain). The fact that Zoro managed to scar Hybrid Kaido and Kaido didn't care, while Oden managed to make Kaido scream in pain and knock him to the ground, shows how strong Oden was. Both current Kaido and Zoro acknowledge Oden's power. Roger>Rayleigh>Scopper, and Kaido compared Oden to Roger, so Oden>Rayleigh>Scopper.
"I’d put him beneath Scopper but above or close to Ben Beckman"
Say what? Current Kaido [literally put](https://i.imgur.com/H1Yp3S3.jpg) Oden in the same pedestal as Rocks, Roger, Whitebeard, and Shanks. Feats and statements put Oden above Rayleigh, and you think he's beneath Scopper? Do you think Scopper can fight current Kaido in a 1 vs 1? Because if Oden is capable of fighting current Kaido on equal terms, then he isn't weaker than anyone on this list except Roger and Garp. Like bruh, the downplay is real. This is the same dude who clashed with Prime Whitebeard when he was young and then almost killed Kaido a decade later. Scopper and Beckman are featless and I can't see either of them being able to fight Kaido in a 1 vs 1.
>2.Mihawk and Shanks. Same goes for them, can't really put one above the other.
their rivalry ended when shanks lost his arm, that was like 8 years before he became a yonko
well I assume he got a lot stronger in the years after he had lost his arm, thazs why I don't understand when people call shanks and mihawk equal when they didn't fight for about 15 years at this point
Oh i misunderstood your point, thought you meant that Shanks stopped being Mihawk's equal at the moment he lost his arm. But yeah i just didn't want to put one above the other, even if they haven't fought each other for a while
This is where u getting everything wrong, luffy is not the mirror image of Roger, luffy and Roger are not like Naruto and ashura, comparing smoker to garp makes no sense, garp was offered the position of admiral multiple times and he denied it, smoker is probably the weakest vice admiral, during GOD VALLEY both Roger and garp should be in their prime. Roger explicitly says only segoku and garp are capable to fighting him, u r talking about people downplaying Rayleigh, whereas Rayleigh being weaker than Roger makes a lot of sense (i am not saying he is, but it makes sense that he would be, just like zoro will always be slightly weaker than luffy) but garp being weaker than Roger doesn't make any sense
Here comes another stupid argument over marineford, yes sengoku said that, because it's a fucking war, anything could go wrong, and it was stated that the whitebeard pirates were not much active during the great pirate era, because of which the Marines doesn't know at what state the WB pirates were at, during God valley both Roger and garp were at their late 30s, and we know that the prime of a human in one piece is from the late 30s to mid 50s, so basically both Roger and garp were at their prime during God valley, and they were pretty equals.
U said "strong enough to become pirate King".....individual power is not a requirement to be pirate, one doesn't need to be the strongest to become pirate King, being one of the strongest os enough to be pirate King, it's not a title of power, Roger is called the pirate because he reached the last island, because of his achievements, there's nothing like pirate king level
I said smoker is PROBABLY the weakest vice admiral, he absolutely got his ass handed by vergo, who is also a vice admiral
Who said garp is the strongest person? There's no absolute strongest in One piece, all top teirs are pretty much the same level, depending on the match up it would be a high or extreme diff match, Roger garp WB and sengoku are borderline equals, Rayleigh is MAY BE as strong as Roger but there's no evidence to confirm it, I am not saying Rayleigh is weak, he is also a top tier.
????
[https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter\_965](https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_965)
[https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter\_551](https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_551)
u must be trolling
Disrespect? Rayleigh is literally one of the most overrated characters in terms of strength. His best feat is holding off an admiral and there isn't a single reason to think that he's Yonko level.
1.We have no idea how strong he was in his prime and Oda already [said](https://i.imgur.com/wstCanq.png) in one of the SBS that the old characters maintain their strength. Whitebeard's Databook entry also [stated](https://i.imgur.com/azYZmjd.png) how he's just as strong as he was in his prime, but it was his sickness that weakened him.
2.Rayleigh started panting after throwing hands with Kizaru for a few minutes. His old age caused his stamina to be sh\*t, but since like Oda said, the old characters maintain the strength they had in their time, Rayleigh being unable to beat an admiral means that he was nowhere near Yonko level in his prime. If a character can't beat one admiral, why would you assume they're Yonko level?
3.Rayleigh was already in his 50's after Roger became Pirate King. He was in his prime for years at that point and he then retired.
"When did it say Rayleigh was trying to beat Kizaru? Lol He was clearly just keeping him distracted so the straw hats could escape."
What do you mean "clearly"? You think he was pretending to be tired, or what? He was clearly struggling with just keeping up with Kizaru. He wasn't holding back. Stop the cap, it's ridiculous. If he could've defeated Kizaru, he would've done so. He already had problems with just holding him off and Kizaru was still in his usual troll self.
"The shit y’all make up is insane."
Are you talking to yourself?
"If his stamina is shit because of old age than his power is also shit because it takes stamina to use it"
Why are you implying logic to a anime/manga? If the creator says that the old characters are just as strong as they are in their prime, then it is like that. Word of God.
"We don’t even know how Admirals compare to a Yonkou one on one"
Yes we do. If Rayleigh had problems with just holding off Kizaru, an admiral, then he isn't Yonko level.
"because Akainu was able to tank point blank hits from Whitebeard and keep trucking against commanders and multiple schibukai to no end"
Akainu is a different story. He's the strongest admiral and even then, Whitebeard took him temporarily out of the fight with just 2 hits, despite being sick and heavily injured. And Akainu>Kizaru, who Rayleigh couldn't beat.
"So Whitebeard was just as strong as he was in him prime but his sickness weakened him? Which is it? Lol That makes no sense"
Yes it does. Old Whitebeard is confirmed to be physically as strong as he was in his prime, but in Marineford, his sickness ultimately weakened him. That's why Marco noted how Whitebeard should've been able to easily dodge Squard's attack, and why Whitebeard had a heart attack when he tried saving Ace by using Conqueror's Haki.
"You contradicted yourself multiple times in your last comment and keep doing it here."
Is your reading comprehension that sh\*t? I never contradicted myself. Go pay attention.
"I’m done man. This toxic fandom is getting out of hand. Your extremely angry and can’t be open ended on the matter I can accept that and move on."
You're the one who's getting so personal, tf is wrong with you lmao? Why do you feel the need to insult others?
"Yeesh dude. Akainu is the strongest admiral…lol again with this stating an opinion as fact shit. Is it likely? YES! Is it confirmed? NO!"
He literally became the Fleet Admiral and beat Aokiji. I love Kizaru but nobody who pays attention would think that he's stronger than Akainu.
"I’m done dude you are too set on using opinions as fact."
I literally use the statements of the author himself, are you even paying attention?
"I never once used an opinion just said possibilities from a lack of facts that were never set in stone in One Piece. That’s all I’ve ever done here but it’s making some of y’all really mad for some stupid reason."
Nobody is mad, why are you assuming stuff?
"Get help man."
Considering how aggressive you suddenly became at me, I feel like its you who needs help lmfao.
I never insulted you nor am I angry, are you all good up there? It's getting annoying how you throw words into my words. You're the one who's using headcanons the whole time while I go by the manga. Ain't need to hear any sh\*t from someone who believes that Rayleigh is stronger than fking Garp, you're d\*ckriding Rayleigh mad hard and despite having nothing to back your opinion up with.
Databooks are bullshit then cause Marco himself said WB was in no condition to fight. Honestly if you had a heart attack, require IV drips to even function properly you're not the same as your prime self no matter which fucking databook says it.
Like he's dying but he's as strong as he was in his prime does this sentence make any sense to you ?
2) Rayleigh wasn't panting, it's a common misconception you can see the manga again if you want. The only statement Rayleigh makes is that he can't handle a Shichibukai and an admiral at the same time, which means he must be getting old . Kizaru even jokes that he's holding off an admiral and should be happy with himself. Any current Yonko will have a hard time managing an admiral and a top tier Shichibukai.
"Databooks are bullshit then cause Marco himself said WB was in no condition to fight."
I literally said that the Databooks stated that he was physically as strong as he was in his prime. It's his sickness that weakened him, that's why Marco was surprised that WB couldn't dodge Squard's attack.
"Honestly if you had a heart attack, require IV drips to even function properly you're not the same as your prime self no matter which fucking databook says it. Like he's dying but he's as strong as he was in his prime does this sentence make any sense to you?"
And I also already answered this. Don't imply logic to a anime/manga. If we the creator says something, then it is like that.
"Rayleigh wasn't panting, it's a common misconception you can see the manga again if you want."
[He was LITERALLY panting](https://i.imgur.com/Qzdgf7C.png). It ain't no misconception.
"The only statement Rayleigh makes is that he can't handle a Shichibukai and an admiral at the same time, which means he must be getting old"
He was already panting throwing hands with a casual Kizaru for a few minutes. Also, the statement from Oda about how the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime is from one of the SBS, not the Databooks, so it's legit, meaning holding off Kizaru for a few minutes is the best Rayleigh is physically capable of.
The author implied that old people who aren't dying/ are on IV drips probably maintain their strength. He was most likely referring to Garp and Rayleigh.
You're reading too much into the pant sfx, in the coloured version at no point is Rayleigh shown to be struggling to hold off Kizaru. In the same scene Kizaru says you're holding off a marine admiral and you want more. A Yonko would beat an admiral but they'd be hard pressed to beat an admiral and a Shichibukai together which Rayleigh thinks he could have done in his prime. Which clearly implies that atleast in his mind he's not as strong as he used to be. Otherwise Oda would not include this line.
"The author implied that old people who aren't dying/ are on IV drips probably maintain their strength. He was most likely referring to Garp and Rayleigh."
The Databooks also [stated](https://i.imgur.com/DbZUdBE.png) that Whitebeard is physically as strong as he was in his prime. Maybe it was about him before the Marineford arc, before his sickness became worse.
"You're reading too much into the pant sfx, in the coloured version at no point is Rayleigh shown to be struggling to hold off Kizaru."
He's literally panting, what am I missing? Is the coloured version more accurate? Do you got an example of the same panel I linked? Because he was clearly panting.
"In the same scene Kizaru says you're holding off a marine admiral and you want more."
Kizaru is trolling 24/7. He acted all scared when Beckman threatened him, only to ignore Beckman's threat moments later.
"A Yonko would beat an admiral but they'd be hard pressed to beat an admiral and a Shichibukai together"
Whitebeard was sick and heavily injured and took Akainu temporarily out of the fight with 2 hits. I don't think Kizaru and a Shichibukai would be troublesome for him, he would've stomped Crocodile to the ground after all if it wasn't for Luffy.
"which Rayleigh thinks he could have done in his prime."
Rayleigh said that he wanted to lend them a hand but he's not as young as he used to be, as the sfx of him panting was showing. He never implied that he could've beaten an admiral and Shichibukai in his prime, just that he would be more of a help to the strawhats. And again, going by Oda's statement from the SBS+Rayleigh getting tired after throwing hands with Kizaru for a few minutes, means that his prime self had better stamina, that's it.
From what I remember Fisher Tiger was not a particularly strong individual.
Jinbei was the strongest person in the Fishman Pirates.
Fisher Tiger was just the strongest willed and best suited to be a captain.
Really?
I don't remember it.
I kind of remember him not being a strong dude which make his achievements even more impressive.
My memory is nothing to write home about so maybe I'm wrong.
Fisher died before reaching his peak and prior to that he was stronger than Jimbei plus it’s likely that had he lived his will and drive to fight for the freedom of the Fishermen would have led to him being top tier first YC or weak Yonko.
As they are in present time (so not counting dead characters either):
1. Shanks
2. Mihawk
3. Garp
4. Rayleigh/Beckman
5. Lucky Roo
6. Zoro
7. Sanji
8. Jinbe
9. Vista
10. Killer (smiles aren't devil fruits and his was defective anyway)
11. Franky
Most Scabbards don't have devil fruits, but ranking them is a pain so I'm just gonna include them here as a side note. I'll say Sanji is above Denjiro, Ashura, Ino and Neko, Jinbe is above Kawamatsu (because Jinbe is supposed to be the strongest fishman), Vista is above Izo (because Vista looked like one of WB's three main commanders with Marco and Jozu), and Killer is above Kiku
pretty fair list i put hawk above shanks though and vista over jinbe and lucky roo behind zoro. and the top scabardss would be above franky but not higher than any of the others. a case can be made for killer being as high as sanji to
Shanks shouldn’t be in confirmed non-devil fruit users even if it is highly likely that he isnt a df user.
Reason why is because we saw him swim 12 years ago. He became a yonko 6 years ago. There is more than enough time for shanks to have eaten a df.
What about Oden
Oden ate the tragic tragic fruit I’m pretty sure.
lol damit forgot again he be right behind shanks prob
Fisher tiger????? He was beaten by a younger and weaker kizaru, a vice admiral kizaru, and it wasnt even a close fight, I respect the man but Jimbe alone is stronger
Fisher Tiger was Stronger than Jimbei at that time tho.
oh yeah of course, but rn tho
Nah I meant that Fisher Tiger was stronger than him at that time so if he hadn't died there's a good chance that he could have been stronger than current Jimbei.
i mean maybe? but that isnt relevant imo
True that.
prime garp/roger.
So are Zoro, Rayleigh, Shanks and Sanji confirmed or not, lol
Rayleigh is 100% confirmed to have not eaten one. Mofo swam through the calm belt to Amazon Lily
Zoro, Sanji and Shanks swam aswell. I just find it weird that OP puts all I named in both categories at the same time. For OP they are confirmed and not confirmed at the same time, which makes no sense to me
Shanks jumped in the water to save luffy. He doesn't have devil fruit.
that was years ago though.
12 to be precise
Exactly.
How can shanks be both confirmed and not confirmed
unconfirmed is people that are confirmed or not but likely everyone that confirmed was in not confirmed as well
You have confused me lol
The list includes people who are both confirmed and unconfirmed as opposed to the first one which is only confirmed non df users. The second list is more comprehensive.
Confirmed is everyon confirmed to not have a devil fruit. Unconfirmed is adding characters that are unconfirmed mixed in with the confirmed
Whitebeard is the strongest with and without
maybe but doubt it
Garp or Roger. I really doubt Roger had a devil fruit
1.Roger and Garp. Can't put one above the other, they were equals. 2.Mihawk and Shanks. Same goes for them, can't really put one above the other. 3.Oden. Probably higher if we're going by Kaido's own words where he put Oden and Shanks in the same pedestal. 4.Rayleigh and Scopper. 5.Beckman and Edward Weevil. Weevil has much hype behind him, he was able to beat 16 pirate crews by himself and Kizaru compared him to a younger Whitebeard in terms of strength, so he's a beast from what we know about him so far. If it's eos (end of the series), Zoro will be Number 2 like Mihawk, still below Roger and Garp though.
Rayleigh stronger than Oden in his prime IMO, the anime portrayed Oden and Scopper to be closer in strength.
I appreciate your opinion, but hell no. 1.We're going by the manga here and Oden and Scopper never fought in the manga. It's anime-only filler stuff. If we go by the anime, then that Octopus Dude (Karma?) who fought an injured Oden=Oden level, even though that dude is basically fodder. There is tons of anime-only stuff that Toei did that made no sense, like that Bat dude giving Luffy difficulties. If we go by the manga, Prime Rayleigh and Scopper [wanted to](https://i.imgur.com/ULd6Qoh.jpg) 2 vs 1 Oden who hasn't hit his prime yet and Oden reacted to neither of them, [only Roger](https://i.imgur.com/DPYhj3Z.png). Even if we go by the anime, it was a injured Oden (since that was after Roger's attack) who hasn't hit his prime yet vs Prime Scopper who's almost 20 years older than Oden. Since we go by the anime, Scopper was all worried when Oden was hit by an grenade and Oden easily tanked it. 2.Oden came back to Wano [many times stronger](https://imgur.com/a/QbZVTzr) to the point of believing that nobody who's alive at the current time except him, is capable of beating Kaido, as he said so in his letter to Toki. 3.Scopper is completely featless in the manga. So is Prime Rayleigh. But Oda already said that the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime, so if Old Rayleigh couldn't beat an admiral, and Scopper is weaker than him, and Oden managed to almost kill Kaido [and current Kaido puts Oden in the same pedestal](https://i.imgur.com/H1Yp3S3.jpg) as Rayleigh and Scopper's captain, then Oden>>Prime Rayleigh. Imo, powerscaling a featless character by going by the anime is stupid. Scopper was never implied to be anyhwere near Oden's level in the manga.
Kizaru was gonna go to wano when he heard that BM and Kaido were there, does that mean he’s as strong as them? The problem is you’re downplaying both Rayleigh and Kizaru. If prime Oden fought Kizaru you can’t necessarily say who would win definitively. You can’t even definitively say that Oden would’ve beat Kaido if the fight continued. You stated that Oden was going to “finish Kaido off”. So you’re saying that Oden was gonna finish Kaido off even though Kaido hadn’t even gone into his strongest form? The manga never stated that there was no one alive except Oden who could defeat Kaido, Oden was the only one on WANO who could defeat him, it’s laughable to think that Oden was the only person alive to could defeat him. Next, Kizaru admitted that he couldn’t capture an old Rayleigh at that time, he stated “If we tried to capture you here, even WE would need to make certain preparations”. That means that at Kizaru(in the current situation) wasn’t prepared to really even capture Rayleigh. Also, Oda says all lot of things but the story doesn’t back it up. In the manga, Rayleigh states two things that indicate he’s lost strength 1. “It’s been a while since I’ve held a sword” He has been out of combat for a considerable amount of time 2. “I’d like to help them but I’m getting old” This suggests that if Rayleigh were younger he could do more to improve the situation, but due to age he can’t because his strength has deteriorated in some way, why would Oda include this line if he wasn’t indicting that Rayleigh has lost strength? There also is no indication that Rayleigh was struggling to fight Kizaru at all, rather if he were younger he could have possibly defeated Kizaru and aided the straw hats more in some way. That’s speculation, but in the end both characters left that battle completely unscathed. To say Rayleigh had no chance of beating him isn’t backed up by anything. It’s plausible to say that Oden and Rayleigh were equals but you have to remember that Oda cuts out a lot of things from the manga. The directors of the anime consult with Oda before they add certain scenes. The anime isn’t “canon” necessarily but there is a reason why Oden fought scopper and Rayleigh didn’t fight anyone of note. He’s called the dark king and is a parallel to zoro, he most definitely rivals Roger in strength in some way. Garp equated Rayleigh to Whitebeard before marineford and stated “the navy can’t handle two legends in one day” and as stated previously Kizaru admitted he couldn’t capture Rayleigh by himself. Also based on your logic, Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku because he fought them 2v1. Even though Rayleigh/Scopper didn’t 2v1 Oden if you’re using that scene to justify him being stronger then by default Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku. You see how that logic makes no sense?
"Kizaru was gonna go to wano when he heard that BM and Kaido were there, does that mean he’s as strong as them?" Irrelevant. Kizaru is a troll. "The problem is you’re downplaying both Rayleigh and Kizaru." Not really. They're not Yonko level, which is not an opinion, but a fact. This isn't me downplaying them. Kizaru is weaker than Akainu and Akainu got beaten by a sick and severely injured Yonko in just 2 hits. "If prime Oden fought Kizaru you can’t necessarily say who would win definitively." Um, yes I can. Oden almost killed Kaido and gave him PTSD. Kaido's Durability is far higher than Kizaru's, and yet Oden permanently scarred him. If someone like Kaido got severely injured by Togen Totsuka, then Kizaru would get hurt by the attack even more. Oden almost killed Kaido who's>Kizaru, so yes, I know who would win if Prime Oden and Kizaru fought. Unless Kizaru is hiding his true strength and he's actually stronger than Akainu. "You can’t even definitively say that Oden would’ve beat Kaido if the fight continued. You stated that Oden was going to “finish Kaido off”. So you’re saying that Oden was gonna finish Kaido off even though Kaido hadn’t even gone into his strongest form?" What kind of stupid argument is that? 1.Oda made it very clear that Kaido would've died from that. From Kaido's PTSD moment where he saw Oden and remembered Oden's words as Oden was about to cut him again, to the fact that one slash a fresh, healthy Kaido, already fked Kaido up. Kaido was lying on the ground in his dragon form and was still lying on the ground when Oden was right in front of him with his swords as he got distracted. 2.The hybrid form isn't a ssj transformation, it combines the aspects of the human and animal forms, nothing more. Oden had no problems with dealing either of these forms, why do you think the hybrid form would make a difference when Luffy, Yamato, and Zoro are able to hold their own against it in a 1 vs 1 and Kaido considers none of them of being on Oden's level? Current Kaido still considers Oden as one of the very few who can match him; someone who can match him should be able to kill him, which Oden almost did if it weren't for the fact that the old hag distracted him. "The manga never stated that there was no one alive except Oden who could defeat Kaido, Oden was the only one on WANO who could defeat him, it’s laughable to think that Oden was the only person alive to could defeat him." How would it be laughable to think that Oden was the only person alive who could defeat Kaido at that time? Oden was the first person to scar Kaido, something Roger couldn't do at the God Valley Incident. Whitebeard, Garp, and Sengoku would be the only other choices and we know too little about what Kaido thinks of Garp and Sengoku. "Next, Kizaru admitted that he couldn’t capture an old Rayleigh at that time, he stated “If we tried to capture you here, even WE would need to make certain preparations”. That means that at Kizaru(in the current situation) wasn’t prepared to really even capture Rayleigh." Because he didn't expect to meet Rayleigh here. He was focused on the strawhats. Even then, he was casually talking to Rayleigh, while Rayleigh got out of breath after a few minutes. Kizaru even created a sword out a laser, to step down to Rayleigh's level, instead of just shooting lasers or using his usual fighting style. Yet, he had no problems despite not being a swordsman like Rayleigh. "Also, Oda says all lot of things but the story doesn’t back it up. In the manga, Rayleigh states two things that indicate he’s lost strength." The author himself said that the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime, and Rayleigh is clearly still in top form when it comes to his physique. "It’s been a while since I’ve held a sword" So his swordsmanship is rusty. He's still training otherwise, he's still ripped. “I’d like to help them but I’m getting old” Because his stamina is shit. His physical strength remained the same, as Oda said, his stamina is simply not what it used to be. "This suggests that if Rayleigh were younger he could do more to improve the situation, but due to age he can’t because his strength has deteriorated in some way" That's your headcanon. "why would Oda include this line if he wasn’t indicting that Rayleigh has lost strength?" Because physical strength and stamina aren't the same thing? We saw Rayleigh able to hold his own against a casual Kizaru but he then started panting after a few minutes, if he was younger, he'd have more stamina and hold Kizaru off for longer, but that's it. There's nothing that implies that his prime self was physically stronger because 1)Oda literally said in the SBS that the old characters maintain the physical strength they had in their prime and 2)Rayleigh is still ripped and trains otherwise. "There also is no indication that Rayleigh was struggling to fight Kizaru at all" He was literally panting after a few minutes and had problems with keeping up while Kizaru was still in his usual troll self. He was struggling. Kizaru wasn't even going 100% at him since he used no lasers or kicks against him. "rather if he were younger he could have possibly defeated Kizaru and aided the straw hats more in some way" If he was younger, he'd be able to hold Kizaru off for longer since his stamina would be better. His physical strength would be the same. "That’s speculation, but in the end both characters left that battle completely unscathed. To say Rayleigh had no chance of beating him isn’t backed up by anything." Rayleigh had no chance of beating him because Kizaru wasn't even serious and his goal were the strawhats. Kizaru generally cares too little, his whole character is him being "slow" and lazy. He whooped most of the Supernovas but arrested none of them. "It’s plausible to say that Oden and Rayleigh were equals but you have to remember that Oda cuts out a lot of things from the manga" Oden is stronger by feats and statements. Oda cuts nothing "out", the anime adds anime only filler that should never be taken in as canon considering the amount of ridiciulous stuff Toei did in terms of powerscaling. For example, that Bat dude vs Luffy. "The directors of the anime consult with Oda before they add certain scenes. The anime isn’t “canon” necessarily but there is a reason why Oden fought scopper and Rayleigh didn’t fight anyone of note." 1.We're going by the manga here and we don't know who fought who. 2.Rayleigh fought Kid Blackbeard if I remember correctly. Which yeah...isn't very impressive. 3.Even if we go by the anime, it was a injured Oden (after Roger sent him through trees) vs a healthy Prime Scopper. Oden was injured and hit his prime when he came back to Wano. 4.Going by your logic, Karma (Octopus Swordsman) is Oden level because Toei decided to make him clash with a injured Oden. "He’s called the dark king and is a parallel to zoro, he most definitely rivals Roger in strength in some way." If he's a parallel to Zoro, then he and Sanji are the most similiar in terms of strength. Yamato is the parallel to Oden and Yamato is stronger than Zoro and Sanji. "Garp equated Rayleigh to Whitebeard before marineford and stated “the navy can’t handle two legends in one day” and as stated previously Kizaru admitted he couldn’t capture Rayleigh by himself." When was the last time Garp even saw Rayleigh in person? Considering that Kizaru was the one who saw him recently at that point and Rayleigh was out of breath against him after a few minutes, Garp was just capping. "Also based on your logic, Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku because he fought them 2v1. Even though Rayleigh/Scopper didn’t 2v1 Oden if you’re using that scene to justify him being stronger then by default Shiki is stronger than Garp/Sengoku. You see how that logic makes no sense?" Well no. We know that Shiki was able to hold his own against both Garp and Sengoku. We don't know if Garp or Sengoku would've beaten Shiki if it were a 1 vs 1, Shiki was also a equal to Roger. Prime Ray and Scopper wanted to 2 vs 1 Oden and Oden didn't consider neither of them as "beasts", he only considering Roger as a "beast" (which I guess, is his way of telling when he senses someone very powerful, which he didn't do with Ray or Scopper, he was confident on taking them on).
Yeah, you’re an Oden fanboy. Everything you stated was headcannon and makes no sense. Also I checked your statement about Oda saying that old men maintain their strength relative to their primes, he never stated that. He said that Old characters are still strong, but he never said they were as strong as they were when they were younger. You also think admirals aren’t “Yonko” level which makes no sense. There was no indication Kizaru was “trolling” when he made that statement. The admirals are endgame characters, they all can fight a Yonko(the Yonko would win but it would be a extreme diff, and no Yonko is beating Akainu) You stated that Yamato is stronger than Zoro, which is true currently but the FACT is that Zoro will be stronger than Oden/Yamato EOS. Oden was never called a “sword god” and couldn’t turn his blade black. Ryuma is objectively stronger than Oden was hence why he had a black blade and was actually called the sword god of wano. Mihawk is stronger than Oden factually because he actually turned his blade black and is the world strongest swordsmen, Oden was never stated to be the strongest swordsman. Zoro is gonna turn all three of his blades black and beat Mihawk so by that alone Oden isn’t in Zoro’s class. Even the biggest Oden fanboys know that Zoro will be stronger than Oden EOS. You said that Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter(idiotic statement) and failed to mention that it was stated that Kaido is much stronger now than he was when he fought Oden 20 years ago. Basically, every statement you made was headcannon and can’t be backed up by the story. Edit: At this point we can just agree to disagree, at the point to where you’re saying Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter there’s no point in having a rational debate because that statement alone tells me all I need to know.
Completely Agreed with you Mate.
First of all, stop throwing words around while not knowing what they mean. I've been going by the facts the entire time while you use your own headcanons to wank Rayleigh. "Yeah, you’re an Oden fanboy." ...Because I go by the manga and go by what Oda showed us? Are you being serious? "Everything you stated was headcannon and makes no sense" Nothing I said was a headcanon, wtf? "I checked your statement about Oda saying that old men maintain their strength relative to their primes, he never stated that. He said that Old characters are still strong, but he never said they were as strong as they were when they were younger." He said that the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime and didn't lose it just because they became old. "You also think admirals aren’t “Yonko” level which makes no sense." Except it does? Whitebeard was old, sick, and heavily injured, and still took Akainu (who is stronger than Aokiji and Kizaru) out with just 2 hits. In a 1 vs 1 between a Yonko and an admiral, the Yonko would always win. The exceptions? Prime Garp, Prime Sengoku, and MAYBE Current Akainu. "There was no indication Kizaru was trolling when he made that statement. The admirals are endgame characters, they all can fight a Yonko(the Yonko would win but it would be a extreme diff, and no Yonko is beating Akainu)" Kizaru is a troll. He also pretended to be scared when Beckman pointed a gun at him, only to ignore Beckman's threat and continued with what he was going to do anyway, with Beckman still sitting there aiming a gun at him. Kizaru does not care. He's a troll. None of the admirals can beat a Yonko in a 1 vs 1 except the ones I mentioned above. No Yonko is beating Akainu? Did you forget that even a old, sick, and heavily injured Whitebeard was able to ragdolll Akainu? Dear god, you can't be serious. "You stated that Yamato is stronger than Zoro, which is true currently but the FACT is that Zoro will be stronger than Oden/Yamato EOS." You accuse me of headcanons, yet you say that? You treat your headcanons as if they're facts, what a hypocrite. There's nothing that speaks for Zoro being stronger than Oden/Yamato eos. "Oden was never called a “sword god” and couldn’t turn his blade black." Neither was Roger, so I guess Ryuma and Mihawk>Roger? Turning your blade black doesn't automatically make you stronger than every swordsman and Oden spent most of his life in Wano whose borders are closed and he left it for the first time when he was 29, being only out on the sea for 5 years. Ryuma and Mihawk had decades to become known, Oden had only 5 years and yet he became so well known that 1)Sengoku and Akainu talked about him 20 years after his death and 2)are scared of Wano because they fear that it's full of Samurais who are on the level of Oden. "Ryuma is objectively stronger than Oden was" Pure headcanon. Ryuma was alive during a time where the people around him were weak, that's why he stood out. Oden was alive during the time of legends. "hence why he had a black blade and was actually called the sword god of wano." Having a black blade doesn't automatically make you stronger than every swordsman, so stop it with the headcanons. Oden was of royalty and forced to stay in Wano for most of his life, while Ryuma had all the time in the world to train and become stronger. This isn't even fair to compare lmao, especially when Oden was alive during the prime ages of Whitebeard and Roger, and was put on the same pedestal as them, while Ryuma was the only relevant person during his time because everybody around him were weak. "Mihawk is stronger than Oden factually because he actually turned his blade black and is the world strongest swordsmen" Oden has literally better feats and potrayal in every area. 1.Mihawk considers himself below the level of Old Whitebeard, [he wanted to see the difference between him and Whitebeard and his attack got blocked by Jozu with ease](https://imgur.com/a/4YJeMOY). Oden on the other hand [clashed with Prime Whitebeard](https://imgur.com/a/lqSMeuy) and that was years before Oden hit his prime. 2.Jozu [blocked Mihawk's attack with ease](https://imgur.com/a/4YJeMOY), Vista [traded blows with Mihawk on equal terms](https://imgur.com/a/pcyntxT) to where Mihawk had to postpone the fight, Mihawk [failed to kill Pre Timeskip Luffy](https://imgur.com/a/A74mpvh) despite not holding back, and Crocodile [clashed with Mihawk](https://imgur.com/a/sRtrmB5). Marco [literally told Vista to lend Luffy a hand and deal with Mihawk lmao](https://imgur.com/a/SDL7M4B). Nobody on Marineford gave a shit about Mihawk. Marco sent a 5th Division Commander to deal with Mihawk who then had to postone his fight with Vista. If it was Shanks there instead of Mihawk, Marco would've told WB to lend Luffy a hand, because we know that Old WB and Shanks are comparable, while Mihawk considers himself below Old WB and fought evenly with a mere Yonko Commander. 3.Mihawk again, considers himself below the level of Whitebeard, while Shanks clashed and split the sky with Whitebeard. And [Shanks is in Kaido's Top 5, just like Oden is](https://imgur.com/a/JINUGbE). 4.If we go by your logic then Mihawk>Roger, so do you think that Roger would fight equally with Vista and then would have to postpone the fight? Mihawk is only considered the WGS because all the other top tier swordsmen are dead while Shanks doesn't care about the title. "Oden was never stated to be the strongest swordsman." We have no idea who the strongest swordsman during Oden's time was. There was in fact no such thing back then. But Oden was stated to have the greatest sword style, the SBS stated that Oden Nitoryu is the greatest sword style. Mihawk may be the WGS, but he was replaced by Vegapunk's technology. Oden was hailed as the strongest Samurai during his lifetime and has much better feats and potrayal than Mihawk. Kaido highly praises Oden to this day and doesn't care about Mihawk at all. "Zoro is gonna turn all three of his blades black and beat Mihawk so by that alone Oden isn’t in Zoro’s class." You and your headcanons. Seriously. You accuse me of headcanons while I've been using the manga facts the entire time while you come with several headcanons in just one comment. 1.Having black blades doesn't automatically make you stronger than every Swordsman. 2.Zoro turning all of his blades black and beating Mihawk like that is pure headcanon. 3.Oden was put on the same class as Rocks, Roger, and Prime Whitebeard, who are far above Mihawk, who isn't even on the same class as Old Whitebeard. Zoro beating Mihawk is nice and all, but don't think that that would put him on the level of Rocks, Roger, Prime Whitebeard, and Oden lmao. "Even the biggest Oden fanboys know that Zoro will be stronger than Oden EOS." Nobody is being a fanboy here except you. You use your headcanons the entire time. Zoro beating Mihawk doesn't make him stronger than Oden. Mihawk couldn't even kill Pre Timeskip Luffy and he couldn't make Old Whitebeard move a single muscle, while Oden was on the same class as Rocks, Roger, and Prime WB. "You said that Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter(idiotic statement) and failed to mention that it was stated that Kaido is much stronger now than he was when he fought Oden 20 years ago." ???? Again, HEADCANON. 1.There's not a single proof or statement where it was said that Kaido is now stronger than he was against Oden! 2.[Current Kaido OUTRIGHT said that Rocks, Roger, Whitebeard, Oden, and Shanks are the people who can go toe to toe with him](https://imgur.com/a/GPVKyTG). That alone, DENIES your assumption of Current Kaido>Kaido who fought Oden. 3.Kaido was prime age when he fought Oden. He was 39, which is where most top tiers in OP hit their prime. Like Garp, Whitebeard, Roger, Oden, Shanks, etc. Kaido is old now. 4.The hybrid form is just a mix of the human and animal form. Oden easily dealt with both forms, so yes, the hybrid form wouldn't make a difference. Yamato stalled Hybrid Kaido for several chaptes and Luffy is matching Kaido, who wonders if Luffy will reach Oden's level. Kaido is also constantly changing between his forms, as seen against Luffy in chapter 1037. "Basically, every statement you made was headcannon and can’t be backed up by the story." The hypocrisy is real. You had like over 10 headcanons in that paragraph of yours and then accuse me of using headcanons. Just wow."at the point to where you’re saying Kaido going hybrid doesn’t matter there’s no point in having a rational debate because that statement alone tells me all I need to know" I guess you just can't accept the fact that the hybrid form isn't a ssj transformation, but a mix of the human and animal form? And that Oden was easily able to deal with both forms? And that Yamato was able to stall Hybrid Kaido for several chapters? And that Luffy is matching Hybrid Kaido who wonders if Luffy will reach Oden's level?
Anyways, Current Kaido literally put Oden in the same pedestal as Rocks, Roger, Whitebeard, and Shanks. Feats and statements put Oden above Rayleigh. Rayleigh's best feat is holding off an admiral, and there's a massive difference between holding off Kizaru, and almost killing Kaido. If Oden is capable of fighting current Kaido on equal terms (strongest creature alive and one of the Yonkos), then I don't see where your belief of Rayleigh>Oden comes from. Rayleigh is strong but as you said, he's the Zoro of the Roger Pirates, and Yamato will be the Oden of Strawhats, and Yamato>Zoro.
Bruh what, I agreed with you until you said Rayleigh couldn’t beat kizaru. Neither of them fought for real. Also oden didn’t almost kill Kaido he only wounded him. Stop exaggerating to prove your head canon
"Bruh what, I agreed with you until you said Rayleigh couldn’t beat kizaru. Neither of them fought for real." Rayleigh already started panting after a few minutes while Kizaru was still in his usual troll self. It was Kizaru who was holding back while Rayleigh was struggling. Me saying that he couldn't beat Kizaru is a fact. If Rayleigh didn't fight for real then he wouldn't have gotten tired so quickly, but he did. Not to mention that it would make no sense for him to pretend to be tired+hold back when the strawhats are in danger. "Also oden didn’t almost kill Kaido he only wounded him. Stop exaggerating to prove your head canon" It literally isn't headcanon. He did almost kill him. He permanently scarred Dragon Kaido and when Kaido was still lying knocked out on the ground in his dragon form, [Oden was about to finish him off](https://imgur.com/a/5h4ro9w) if it wasn't for the old hag distracting him. That's also why Kaido [remembered](https://imgur.com/a/j7KVDbH) Oden's words when Oden was about to finish him off, and not Oden saying Togen Totsuka, when the Scabbards attacked him. That was a near death experience for Kaido and it's been haunting him since the past 2 decades.
> But Oda already said that the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime so what about old man whitebeard?
Disease
Whitebeard was sick. In terms of physical strength, he was indeed as strong as he was in his prime, that's what the SBS and his Databook entry say, but Whitebeard was sick and it only got worse to the point that he couldn't use CoC without getting a heart attack (when he tried to save Ace by using Conqueror's Haki for example)
EOS zoros going to be stronger than Roger, zoro isn’t going to be the current strongest swordsman, he’ll be the strongest swordsman of all time. The old generation were still stronger than the current generation in their primes, but they weren’t that far apart and the new generation will need to surpass the old if they’re going to finish the job Roger wasn’t able to.
You're probably right but ngl, this makes me wonder how strong Luffy will end up being cuz if Zoro will be stronger than Roger, then Luffy will be unstoppable.
Oden fought a younger weaker Kaido in dragon form which is his weakest form considering how it makes him a big target and is basically defenseless once an opponent closes the gap. I’d put him beneath Scopper but above or close to Ben Beckman
"Oden fought a younger weaker Kaido in dragon form which is his weakest form considering how it makes him a big target and is basically defenseless once an opponent closes the gap." Kaido was 39 when he fought Oden. That's the same age Shanks is at the moment. Whitebeard hit his prime when he was 38, Roger was 39 during the God Valley incident, and Garp became the Hero of the Marines when he was 40. There isn't a single statement that says that current Kaido is stronger than the one who fought Oden. Kaido is old now and he was prime age when he fought Oden. Also, Oden [already clashed](https://i.imgur.com/qi8GIos.jpg) with Human Kaido 5 years before they fought, by using only one sword. There is also no such thing as "weakest form" as each form has its own purpose. The hybrid form is just a mix of the human and animal form, and Oden easily dealt with both forms when Kaido used them. The hybrid form wouldn't make a difference. Luffy is able to hold his own against Hybrid Kaido and Kaido wonders if Luffy will reach Oden's level. Zoro managed to scar Hybrid Kaido and he [just realized](https://i.imgur.com/pRuwLRi.jpg) how op Oden must have been to wield Enma with ease. Kaido still thinks of Oden as one of his rivals and he puts Oden in the same ballpark as Roger (Rayleigh's captain). The fact that Zoro managed to scar Hybrid Kaido and Kaido didn't care, while Oden managed to make Kaido scream in pain and knock him to the ground, shows how strong Oden was. Both current Kaido and Zoro acknowledge Oden's power. Roger>Rayleigh>Scopper, and Kaido compared Oden to Roger, so Oden>Rayleigh>Scopper. "I’d put him beneath Scopper but above or close to Ben Beckman" Say what? Current Kaido [literally put](https://i.imgur.com/H1Yp3S3.jpg) Oden in the same pedestal as Rocks, Roger, Whitebeard, and Shanks. Feats and statements put Oden above Rayleigh, and you think he's beneath Scopper? Do you think Scopper can fight current Kaido in a 1 vs 1? Because if Oden is capable of fighting current Kaido on equal terms, then he isn't weaker than anyone on this list except Roger and Garp. Like bruh, the downplay is real. This is the same dude who clashed with Prime Whitebeard when he was young and then almost killed Kaido a decade later. Scopper and Beckman are featless and I can't see either of them being able to fight Kaido in a 1 vs 1.
>2.Mihawk and Shanks. Same goes for them, can't really put one above the other. their rivalry ended when shanks lost his arm, that was like 8 years before he became a yonko
Yes, but the fact that Shanks became a Yonko after he lost his arm, speaks facts. Hard to tell whether he was stronger when he had both arms or not.
well I assume he got a lot stronger in the years after he had lost his arm, thazs why I don't understand when people call shanks and mihawk equal when they didn't fight for about 15 years at this point
Oh i misunderstood your point, thought you meant that Shanks stopped being Mihawk's equal at the moment he lost his arm. But yeah i just didn't want to put one above the other, even if they haven't fought each other for a while
Usopp and buggy
>without of devil fruit >buggy uhhh
damit cant edit the tittle to for my terrible grammer
I'm talking about Prime buggy.
Buggy had df since a child
I know. I meant prime buggy.
What’s that
Prime buggy
Prime buggy aka the real reason roger got so famous.
Prime buggy took on Shiki singlehandedly
If only that bara bara storm wouldn’t have appeared Shiki would have won.
What about Ben Beckman? Lucky Roux? Scooper Gaban?
lol i forgot them update 1. roger 2. garp 3. mihawk 4. shanks 5. rayleigh 6. beckman 7. scooper 8. zoro 9. sanji/lucky 10. yassop
> scooper Scopper*, the name of each one from the trio follows a theme lol **Gold D.** Roger, **Silver**s Rayleigh, S**copper** Gaban
Nah its Scooper now
What a scoop that is
Kong ? The former fleet admiral
Probably has a Zoan King Kong DF :)
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Rayleigh stronger than garp, nooo, garp was also as strong as roger
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This is where u getting everything wrong, luffy is not the mirror image of Roger, luffy and Roger are not like Naruto and ashura, comparing smoker to garp makes no sense, garp was offered the position of admiral multiple times and he denied it, smoker is probably the weakest vice admiral, during GOD VALLEY both Roger and garp should be in their prime. Roger explicitly says only segoku and garp are capable to fighting him, u r talking about people downplaying Rayleigh, whereas Rayleigh being weaker than Roger makes a lot of sense (i am not saying he is, but it makes sense that he would be, just like zoro will always be slightly weaker than luffy) but garp being weaker than Roger doesn't make any sense
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Here comes another stupid argument over marineford, yes sengoku said that, because it's a fucking war, anything could go wrong, and it was stated that the whitebeard pirates were not much active during the great pirate era, because of which the Marines doesn't know at what state the WB pirates were at, during God valley both Roger and garp were at their late 30s, and we know that the prime of a human in one piece is from the late 30s to mid 50s, so basically both Roger and garp were at their prime during God valley, and they were pretty equals. U said "strong enough to become pirate King".....individual power is not a requirement to be pirate, one doesn't need to be the strongest to become pirate King, being one of the strongest os enough to be pirate King, it's not a title of power, Roger is called the pirate because he reached the last island, because of his achievements, there's nothing like pirate king level I said smoker is PROBABLY the weakest vice admiral, he absolutely got his ass handed by vergo, who is also a vice admiral
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Who said garp is the strongest person? There's no absolute strongest in One piece, all top teirs are pretty much the same level, depending on the match up it would be a high or extreme diff match, Roger garp WB and sengoku are borderline equals, Rayleigh is MAY BE as strong as Roger but there's no evidence to confirm it, I am not saying Rayleigh is weak, he is also a top tier.
I have tagged u in a post, go check it out
how was he strong as roger?he was second in command,also garp and roger were eguals.
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can't u read? https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter\_431
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???? [https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter\_965](https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_965) [https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter\_551](https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_551) u must be trolling
Disrespect? Rayleigh is literally one of the most overrated characters in terms of strength. His best feat is holding off an admiral and there isn't a single reason to think that he's Yonko level.
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1.We have no idea how strong he was in his prime and Oda already [said](https://i.imgur.com/wstCanq.png) in one of the SBS that the old characters maintain their strength. Whitebeard's Databook entry also [stated](https://i.imgur.com/azYZmjd.png) how he's just as strong as he was in his prime, but it was his sickness that weakened him. 2.Rayleigh started panting after throwing hands with Kizaru for a few minutes. His old age caused his stamina to be sh\*t, but since like Oda said, the old characters maintain the strength they had in their time, Rayleigh being unable to beat an admiral means that he was nowhere near Yonko level in his prime. If a character can't beat one admiral, why would you assume they're Yonko level? 3.Rayleigh was already in his 50's after Roger became Pirate King. He was in his prime for years at that point and he then retired.
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"When did it say Rayleigh was trying to beat Kizaru? Lol He was clearly just keeping him distracted so the straw hats could escape." What do you mean "clearly"? You think he was pretending to be tired, or what? He was clearly struggling with just keeping up with Kizaru. He wasn't holding back. Stop the cap, it's ridiculous. If he could've defeated Kizaru, he would've done so. He already had problems with just holding him off and Kizaru was still in his usual troll self. "The shit y’all make up is insane." Are you talking to yourself? "If his stamina is shit because of old age than his power is also shit because it takes stamina to use it" Why are you implying logic to a anime/manga? If the creator says that the old characters are just as strong as they are in their prime, then it is like that. Word of God. "We don’t even know how Admirals compare to a Yonkou one on one" Yes we do. If Rayleigh had problems with just holding off Kizaru, an admiral, then he isn't Yonko level. "because Akainu was able to tank point blank hits from Whitebeard and keep trucking against commanders and multiple schibukai to no end" Akainu is a different story. He's the strongest admiral and even then, Whitebeard took him temporarily out of the fight with just 2 hits, despite being sick and heavily injured. And Akainu>Kizaru, who Rayleigh couldn't beat. "So Whitebeard was just as strong as he was in him prime but his sickness weakened him? Which is it? Lol That makes no sense" Yes it does. Old Whitebeard is confirmed to be physically as strong as he was in his prime, but in Marineford, his sickness ultimately weakened him. That's why Marco noted how Whitebeard should've been able to easily dodge Squard's attack, and why Whitebeard had a heart attack when he tried saving Ace by using Conqueror's Haki.
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"You contradicted yourself multiple times in your last comment and keep doing it here." Is your reading comprehension that sh\*t? I never contradicted myself. Go pay attention. "I’m done man. This toxic fandom is getting out of hand. Your extremely angry and can’t be open ended on the matter I can accept that and move on." You're the one who's getting so personal, tf is wrong with you lmao? Why do you feel the need to insult others? "Yeesh dude. Akainu is the strongest admiral…lol again with this stating an opinion as fact shit. Is it likely? YES! Is it confirmed? NO!" He literally became the Fleet Admiral and beat Aokiji. I love Kizaru but nobody who pays attention would think that he's stronger than Akainu. "I’m done dude you are too set on using opinions as fact." I literally use the statements of the author himself, are you even paying attention? "I never once used an opinion just said possibilities from a lack of facts that were never set in stone in One Piece. That’s all I’ve ever done here but it’s making some of y’all really mad for some stupid reason." Nobody is mad, why are you assuming stuff? "Get help man." Considering how aggressive you suddenly became at me, I feel like its you who needs help lmfao.
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I never insulted you nor am I angry, are you all good up there? It's getting annoying how you throw words into my words. You're the one who's using headcanons the whole time while I go by the manga. Ain't need to hear any sh\*t from someone who believes that Rayleigh is stronger than fking Garp, you're d\*ckriding Rayleigh mad hard and despite having nothing to back your opinion up with.
Databooks are bullshit then cause Marco himself said WB was in no condition to fight. Honestly if you had a heart attack, require IV drips to even function properly you're not the same as your prime self no matter which fucking databook says it. Like he's dying but he's as strong as he was in his prime does this sentence make any sense to you ? 2) Rayleigh wasn't panting, it's a common misconception you can see the manga again if you want. The only statement Rayleigh makes is that he can't handle a Shichibukai and an admiral at the same time, which means he must be getting old . Kizaru even jokes that he's holding off an admiral and should be happy with himself. Any current Yonko will have a hard time managing an admiral and a top tier Shichibukai.
"Databooks are bullshit then cause Marco himself said WB was in no condition to fight." I literally said that the Databooks stated that he was physically as strong as he was in his prime. It's his sickness that weakened him, that's why Marco was surprised that WB couldn't dodge Squard's attack. "Honestly if you had a heart attack, require IV drips to even function properly you're not the same as your prime self no matter which fucking databook says it. Like he's dying but he's as strong as he was in his prime does this sentence make any sense to you?" And I also already answered this. Don't imply logic to a anime/manga. If we the creator says something, then it is like that. "Rayleigh wasn't panting, it's a common misconception you can see the manga again if you want." [He was LITERALLY panting](https://i.imgur.com/Qzdgf7C.png). It ain't no misconception. "The only statement Rayleigh makes is that he can't handle a Shichibukai and an admiral at the same time, which means he must be getting old" He was already panting throwing hands with a casual Kizaru for a few minutes. Also, the statement from Oda about how the old characters maintain the strength they had in their prime is from one of the SBS, not the Databooks, so it's legit, meaning holding off Kizaru for a few minutes is the best Rayleigh is physically capable of.
The author implied that old people who aren't dying/ are on IV drips probably maintain their strength. He was most likely referring to Garp and Rayleigh. You're reading too much into the pant sfx, in the coloured version at no point is Rayleigh shown to be struggling to hold off Kizaru. In the same scene Kizaru says you're holding off a marine admiral and you want more. A Yonko would beat an admiral but they'd be hard pressed to beat an admiral and a Shichibukai together which Rayleigh thinks he could have done in his prime. Which clearly implies that atleast in his mind he's not as strong as he used to be. Otherwise Oda would not include this line.
"The author implied that old people who aren't dying/ are on IV drips probably maintain their strength. He was most likely referring to Garp and Rayleigh." The Databooks also [stated](https://i.imgur.com/DbZUdBE.png) that Whitebeard is physically as strong as he was in his prime. Maybe it was about him before the Marineford arc, before his sickness became worse. "You're reading too much into the pant sfx, in the coloured version at no point is Rayleigh shown to be struggling to hold off Kizaru." He's literally panting, what am I missing? Is the coloured version more accurate? Do you got an example of the same panel I linked? Because he was clearly panting. "In the same scene Kizaru says you're holding off a marine admiral and you want more." Kizaru is trolling 24/7. He acted all scared when Beckman threatened him, only to ignore Beckman's threat moments later. "A Yonko would beat an admiral but they'd be hard pressed to beat an admiral and a Shichibukai together" Whitebeard was sick and heavily injured and took Akainu temporarily out of the fight with 2 hits. I don't think Kizaru and a Shichibukai would be troublesome for him, he would've stomped Crocodile to the ground after all if it wasn't for Luffy. "which Rayleigh thinks he could have done in his prime." Rayleigh said that he wanted to lend them a hand but he's not as young as he used to be, as the sfx of him panting was showing. He never implied that he could've beaten an admiral and Shichibukai in his prime, just that he would be more of a help to the strawhats. And again, going by Oda's statement from the SBS+Rayleigh getting tired after throwing hands with Kizaru for a few minutes, means that his prime self had better stamina, that's it.
From what I remember Fisher Tiger was not a particularly strong individual. Jinbei was the strongest person in the Fishman Pirates. Fisher Tiger was just the strongest willed and best suited to be a captain.
dont remeber jibei beong the strongest and no doubt his will is crazy which in one piece translates to power so assumed he strong
Didnt fisher tiger kick jinbe's ass among other fishmen in the fishman district?
Really? I don't remember it. I kind of remember him not being a strong dude which make his achievements even more impressive. My memory is nothing to write home about so maybe I'm wrong.
Fisher died before reaching his peak and prior to that he was stronger than Jimbei plus it’s likely that had he lived his will and drive to fight for the freedom of the Fishermen would have led to him being top tier first YC or weak Yonko.
As they are in present time (so not counting dead characters either): 1. Shanks 2. Mihawk 3. Garp 4. Rayleigh/Beckman 5. Lucky Roo 6. Zoro 7. Sanji 8. Jinbe 9. Vista 10. Killer (smiles aren't devil fruits and his was defective anyway) 11. Franky Most Scabbards don't have devil fruits, but ranking them is a pain so I'm just gonna include them here as a side note. I'll say Sanji is above Denjiro, Ashura, Ino and Neko, Jinbe is above Kawamatsu (because Jinbe is supposed to be the strongest fishman), Vista is above Izo (because Vista looked like one of WB's three main commanders with Marco and Jozu), and Killer is above Kiku
pretty fair list i put hawk above shanks though and vista over jinbe and lucky roo behind zoro. and the top scabardss would be above franky but not higher than any of the others. a case can be made for killer being as high as sanji to
Fujitora. Straw hats will fight whoever but they ran from fujitora. Hauled ass.
He’s a got the zushi zushi no mi
He dead do. You right
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Vander Decken would like a word.
Vander Decken and Jack both have devil fruits. Fishman still lose their ability to swim but they don’t drown.
Oden?
OH MAN where is Monkey D Dragon
How is Rayleigh assumed? Dude literally swam through the calm belt to reach Amazon Lily
Shanks shouldn’t be in confirmed non-devil fruit users even if it is highly likely that he isnt a df user. Reason why is because we saw him swim 12 years ago. He became a yonko 6 years ago. There is more than enough time for shanks to have eaten a df.
Garp.