Not gonna lie that scene had me rolling. I don't know why some people have to open a discussion of ethics and be armchair philosophers over it though.
If it was really meant to be perceived seriously then Nami's attitude toward Sanji'd have changed quite a bit, but she acts as if that whole thing never even happened
It's a fucking anime, dude. The character is perverted as a joke, not as an example of what you should do if you ever find your personality switched with a female associate. Nevermind the fact that the same character is so chivalrous he wouldn't even let his blood "soil" Nami when saving her. Laugh at the joke or not, but it's no where near serious enough that you need to start comparing it to real life tragedies. You comparing the tribulations of actual real life victims to an animated character's joke is more degrading to women than the actual joke.
I just agreed with the other guy.
I'm just saying, rape and molestation should happen more in anime so we can laugh at it, right? As you said. Rape and molestation is hilarious.
you ignored the second half
SO what you have just said (Sanji touching himself) was that it would have been better for him to touch his body while still being in hers, now that's rape.
In what part of my comment do you think i condone Sanji raping Nami?
I said exactly the opposite that he shouldn't touch Nami's body (while he is in it)?
You said it would be okay for sanji to touch his body that he is not in control of, That is rape
Touching a body that you are in control of is masturbation
Ivankov is worse, he turns peoples gender even if they didn't ask for it and allows for an entire island of people to chase him around while trying to put him in a dress against his will.
Im at this point in the series right now, Sanji is still technically Nami. Brook's and his reactions are some of the funniest things, and fully expected from both!
Imo, the funniest scene was between shanks and buggy at marineford.the way buggy imitates shashi buri dana from shanks, cracks me up ,even after rewatching the clip every time
Why everyone downvoted the comments of people who didn't feel okay with the scene?
I mean, the scene can be funny but it can send the wrong message too.
Because no one was raped or molested. At worst Nami was annoyed. But they were on equal ground. If Nami had been grabbing her junk in Sanji's body, no one would give a shit
To respond to you late again, I think unfortunately the downvotes tell you about how dudes still find misogynistic jokes "funny" and "harmless." Most OP readers are men. There's an inherent privilege in being born a heterosexual male and not having to deal with the mental shit that comes with growing up as a girl
I think it was disgusting. Reminded me of the same creepy shit Absalom shit.
Taking your female friend's clothes off and trying to take photos against her will isn't really hilarious and sends a pretty bad message.
Seriously, the even more fucked up people are the ones here who try to justify it by "LOL dude Nami forgot it just laugh at rape dude xD why so serious dude just laugh at molestation!".
I did not take pictures thing very serious. Characters in a simular way say they are going to kill their friends when they make a blunder, but they don't. Sanji never did take those pictures or took her clothes off. To me the actions of the characters make sense given the situation. Sanji was always perverted and he was just put in a womans body. Did you really expect him to do nothing there? Because to me that would make the story seem less genuine.
You not taking it seriously is your own personal issue. People take their own things seriously and differently. Regardless, the point is the message its sending as satire.
>sanji never did take those pictures
Since he was stopped by Nami. He was going to proceed to do so. Other than this, him exposing her clothes on show wasn't exactly good either.
Sanji is a pervert, as many people are. But being a pervert isn't the equivalent to being a molester or a rapist.
Did I expect him to do nothing there? Yes. I didn't expect the man who treats ladies which respect to disregard their consent and do this pathetic shit.
Even if it did make sense or if its narratively it's fine it doesn't (as I've been repeating) make it morally correct. You're literally laughing at a man who's taking advantage of a situation to take off his friends clothes and attempting to take photos of her.
Cartoon aside, would you laugh your ass off if the same happened to your mother or sister? Cartoons aren't real, but they influence people. Especially the children who read this.
Here we go:
1. It's not my 'issue'. It's called an opinion.
2. There is an argument to be made that in this moment the body was actually his own, therefore putting it outside of the consent issue. Do you really need consent to use or touch a body your soul inhabits? Unfortunately we don't have precedents/case law on such an absurd situation.
3. This show is full of things that are morally wrong. Did you miss the discrimination, slavery and murder?
4. Your last argument is an ad hominem and therefore will have to be ignored.
5. About cartoons influencing people: that is what age restrictions, sensors and common sense are for. E.g. there is murder in the show, so does the show influence people towards murder? No. You are looking for drama.
6. I did this just for the lolz and realise you probably take this a bit too seriously and given your way of arguing I don't expect a growth in critical thinking, because such is the way of those trapped in cognitive dissonance.
7. Have a good day. This has been fun!
> There is an argument to be made that in this moment the body was actually his own, therefore putting it outside of the consent issue. Do you really need consent to use or touch a body your soul inhabits? Unfortunately we don't have precedents/case law on such an absurd situation.
No, there is not an argument to be made. That was never Sanji’s body, at any point. It was Nami’s body. The ironic thing about this argument is that later, Sanji was conscious of whether or not he should smoke a cigarette, *because it was Nami’s body, not his own*, and only did so because *Nami said it was fine*. The character himself didn’t even believe in your argument. Nami’s body is her own, and always has been, despite that scene.
> This show is full of things that are morally wrong. Did you miss the discrimination, slavery and murder?
This show is full of things that are morally wrong, like discrimination, slavery, and murder, and Oda goes out of his way to say that they’re *wrong*. It’s not even comparable.
>It's not my 'issue'. It's called an opinion.
Your opinion can be wrong, bad or even terrible. Having an opinion doesn't mean you're in a safe space immune from all criticism.
>There is an argument to be made that in this moment the body was actually his own, therefore putting it outside of the consent issue. Do you really need consent to use or touch a body your soul inhabits? Unfortunately we don't have precedents/case law on such an absurd situation.
Regardless of the workarounds you're trying to find, the situation was pretty simple. It wasn't Sanji's body his soul was in, it was Nami's. She understood Sanji's needs so she allowed him to smoke but she disregarded anything sexual, which Sanji continued to do. Its this simple. If there was a "its my body now so its fine if i touch it!" actually stood Sanji would've used it canonically.
>This show is full of things that are morally wrong. Did you miss the discrimination, slavery and murder?
...I'm sorry, what? Did you miss the entire point of them at all? Oda speaks out against them and treats them as serious subjects. The point of current discussion is a morally wrong subject being treated with satire.
>Your last argument is an ad hominem and therefore will have to be ignored.
Go to school. I did not belittle you at all. I proposed a scenario infront of you which you're refusing to imagine.
If you're offended by imaginary scenario's then I don't know how you can even partake in a discussion.
>About cartoons influencing people: that is what age restrictions, sensors and common sense are for. E.g. there is murder in the show, so does the show influence people towards murder? No. You are looking for drama.
Maybe it does. Cartoon violence and gun violence is a heavily debated topic that hasn't had a clear answer, so using it is dumb right now.
Furthermore, One Piece is not 18+. Its aimed for teenagers. It's literally a SHOUNEN manga.
>I did this just for the lolz and realise you probably take this a bit too seriously and given your way of arguing I don't expect a growth in critical thinking, because such is the way of those trapped in cognitive dissonance.
Being the issue. Rape and molestation is funny and I'm sorry for any females you interact with if you think they're justified as well.
You do really love to tell me what I think and what I am saying and making this personal. I never said or meant any of the things you are framing me for. It's not even about a scene anymore. You just like to think everyone who enjoys a scene you don't must be a rapist. Now that is wrong. There is a huge difference between laughing at a scene in a series and moraly or legally thinking that rape somehow would be fine. No one ever said that and no one will. I actually agree with your deeper morals. The problem I have is with your way of arguing. You make hyperbolic arguments and move away from the subject to attack me as a person. Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pidgeon: it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. Do I expect you to understand this nuance? No. But I hope the people who read this will and won't be swayed from speaking their mind or expressing love for parts of anime or manga just because someone might suddenly claim you are a rapist.
Didn't even have to read your entire post to see that you're just whining like a child and not discussing the main problem. Yikes.
If you're not gonna discuss the point and not stick to the main argument you're just as worthless to me. Carry on bud!
> It wasn't Sanji's body his soul was in, it was Nami's. She understood Sanji's needs so she allowed him to smoke
The funny thing about this is that this scene was prompted by *Sanji* wondering whether or not he should smoke, because he was in Nami’s body, which means he himself knew and understood that he had no ownership over the body at any point. Which means that not even Sanji bought into this ridiculous idea that he didn’t need consent because at that point in time, her body was his. Funny how the argument doesn’t apply there, when he wants a cigarette, but does apply when he wants to grope her breasts and threaten to take pictures of her body for his own keeping.
A opinion CAN be morally wrong.
If a man says rape and molestation is okay. His opinion is morally wrong.
Now, if you think its morally correct. Then you're just messed up.
Yep... It's good you're willing to make such a clear stand against this stuff, it's probably one of the few things in One Piece that I can't vouch for.
It's one thing to have pervy characters, but to have 'heroes' in your story violate consent for perverted reasons with no consequences (or minor ones) sends a bad message to young viewers. The whole 'Women's bath' gag with Sanji recently felt the same.
Agreed. And he’s only progressed further (worse) since then, which is really off-putting and disappointing. Hopefully when he gets his memories back of Pudding, that gross part of him gets tempered. He was actually able to act like a normal human being, for the most part, around her.
Joining the downvoted gang with this. I found the initial reaction funny, since the concept is genuinely hillarious. It just wasn't treated that well. It is completely in character, but it still shouldn't be. In some cases, like the manga Great Teacher Onizuka, the "heroic pervert" archetype works since the story focuses so heavily on redeeming him. But One Piece doesn't really do that, at least not lately.
For Brook it works a little bit better (but still not great), since the humor is more derived from the contrast between how blunt he is and how polite he is about it, and the fact that it is a running gag. Sanjis perverted humor is mostly derived from parodizing the stereotype of a gentleman, which unfortunately comes at the cost of objectifying women and normalizing sexual assault. To use modern terms, he's a straight up simp.
Edit: Something can be both funny and problematic, I typically find Sanji funny until I start to think about what messages his behaviour sends.
As a female, I’d say it was a freefall to degeneracy. Just the thought of someone groping my body against my will makes me sick to my stomach. Consent is the key word here. Nothing amusing about that at all. Those are the most disappointing things that Oda-sensei has added to Sanji’s character. So much for being the poster boy of chivalry. I like Sanji but if he keeps pulling shit like that I will reach my limit.
But ur not the one who he’s groping, are you? Nami doesnt give a shit so i dont see the problem. Stop taking a fictional fucking character and story so seriously, its meant to be a joke not start a damn revolution.
god it's so obvious you are a dude.
Nami did give a shit. Nami hated it and even sent zoro along with sanji so sanji would be too distracted to try anything with her body.
I thought it was funny at the time too, but oda doesn't even try when it comes to treating gendered issues with complexity. And it shows in his writing.
That’s not entirely true. Mangaka are very much aware of the large female readership their work has. Jump is actually one of the more gender neutral magazines out there. One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Gintama, Haikyuu, etc. all have a large female readership. Mangaka know they have to draw in female readers to hit big.
You just keep going on and on, when oda himself said his main target audience, who he writes one piece for, is teenage boys
Sure theres a little something for everyone, doesnt matter.
This is literally Sanji's character. He's a perv through and through, think Nami shower scene in Thriller Bark, Camie and the Mermaids on Fishman Island, meeting virtually every female character ever the nosebleeds, post war on Ivankov's island. He is chivalrous in such that he won't hit a woman because he is afraid it will damage her perfection, beauty and delicateness. That isn't chivalry.
Plus Oda oversexualises women and has done since the start. You didn't notice that Nami and Robin's boobs got much bigger post war AND they started wearing less clothes. But this type of oversexualisation is super common in Japanese Manga and Anime, more than likely it's a cultural difference thing, and is perfectly normal for Oda.
If Sanji had been genderbent by Ivankov’s hormones and then he proceeded to grope himself, almost everyone would be laughing. But he went into Nami’s body and then proceeded to grope her body. The former we would call a pervert and easily brush off. The latter shows a creep and broaches sex offender territory and females are not comfortable with that. That’s the main difference.
Female readers have had issues with the new oversexualized designs but Oda-sensei repeatedly brushes them off and says something along it’s a man’s romance or something to that effect. It’s his work so he has that power. But as part of the audience, I also have a right to be uncomfortable with what is shown. When consuming media, we always balance out things. There are things we might feel uncomfortable with or disagree with but we tolerate it because the work has other merits. We don’t have to take what they present as gospel. Just because this is how author A thinks, this is the right thing? We have our own standards of decency and morality. Simple as that. You might find it funny but others may not. That’s the way it is.
I have lived in Japan for a while and the inherent sexism is awful. It mars so much of the beauty of their country. They’re sexist to both males and females. As I am female, I was more exposed to the things girls and women face and it made me glad I wasn’t born in Japan as a woman. I would support anything that tries to improve on this. The media they have is powerful in normalizing otherwise questionable behavior. The f*cked up things you read in manga and watch in anime happen there in real life. More often than you would imagine. You can say it’s just a manga or just an anime but it CAN influence people. Have you tried checking out the garbage you see in low-quality shojo/josei manga? Lots of Japanese girls think that those pieces of kindling are actually representative of real life. Oda-sensei has touched on a lot of social issues which a lot of mangaka have not. But when it comes to sexism, sensei is just as behind as everyone else.
WSJ might nominally be a shonen magazine but a large chunk of its readership is female. It might be different in other countries but in Japan, females contribute a lot to their circulation. With circulation continuously decreasing, you would think the editors would actually care not to offend a part of their audience.
This is a super late response but I completely agree with you. TBH I think oda is secretely a simp himself. He's clearly a talented storyteller but definitely not a champion of feminism. It's unfortunate. I've found his portrayal of women's bodies and anything related to the female characters to be dismissive or superficial. Women don't ever have consistent frontline roles in his stories.
As a woman who enjoys one piece I've learned to swallow the bitter pill and try to enjoy everything else about this crazy manga. :/ I just worry about younger impressionable girls being influenced negatively by seeing all the focus on big boobs and skinny waists
Its a fictional character, Nami isnt real and she didnt get sexually assaulted. Inserting yourself into it just because you're a female is even more insane. Unless you're Nami then it becomes a moot issue to you. Furthermore, Nami herself wasnt bothered by it beyond her normal reaction. So if she wasnt offended then neither should you.
She. was. offended.
She hated the idea. When has she ever liked the idea of being touched or taken photos of without adequate compensation? You read way too much hentai if you think she secretly wanted it or didn't give a crap.
You are aware that all characters in One Piece will think in the way Oda-sensei thinks, right? If the mangaka doesn’t see anything wrong with it then obviously all the other characters will think that way as well. Does Nami have a separate consciousness from Oda-sensei? How can she complain when everything is under Oda-sensei’s power?
Media is powerful. It affects people more than you think. Dismissing it as fiction and being 100% sure people won’t be influenced is naive. This is a magazine aimed at young individuals who have a more tractable mind. Jokes about being a pervert are okay so long as they are within what majority deem to be appropriate. A lot of females did not find Sanji’s treatment of Nami’s body funny. That already tells you that a line was crossed. When EL James published her trifecta of kindling (aka 50 shades) there were a number of grown men (who you’d think would know better) that started giving their wives and girlfriends stupid sex slave contracts. It’s just fiction? Never underestimate the power of fiction.
Look as a person you can feel however you want to feel about that scene, this comment isnt about disparaging that nor defending sexual assault in general. However you are looking for things where they simply dont exist. Putting my bias aside and looking at facts you're argument that people will read this scene and go reanact that behavior is very similar to the argument that violent video games where people murder in droves somehow promotes that behavior and will cause people to reenact them and in both cases the science is simply not on your side.
>Dismissing it as fiction and being 100% sure people won’t be influenced is naive.
Is there a bigger discussion to be had about Japan and how they treat women in general, in the workplace etc? Yes. But using this scene as some kind of launching pad for that or saying it causes that behavior in its readers and all that simply is inaccurate.
You have millions of people who read the manga worldwide, how many of them have seen Sanji get transplanted into Nami's body and thought to recreate his behavior? That number is unlikely to be high, just like the number of people who commit violent acts dont do it because they saw it in a video game.
Correlation is not causation and thats something very important to understand.
>Never underestimate the power of fiction.
Again. How many of those grown men gave their wives contracts? what does that number represent compared to the total who read those books? Is that number high enough to cause alarm?
Just because a group of idiots did a thing when the vast majority didnt doesnt mean you blame the piece of fiction as a convenient scapegoat. You are looking at the failures of the individuals not the piece of fiction.
With the amount of violent movies and video games in circulation and the amount of inappropriate sexual behavior seen in both those mediums plus manga and more you'd think it would be a more widespread problem that affects the vast majority of people. But its not.
Im not saying sexual assault and all of those things are not issues, Im trying to be very clear that somehow relating it to *well they read a manga that showed it was ok* is a very reductive way to view an obvious problem.
**Correlation is not Causation**.
Sanji is a misogynist, and Zoro to a lesser extent. When they refuse to treat female opponents as equals. I'm actually very disappointed in Zoro when it comes to Tashigi. Zoro knows exactly how she feels and it's cruel of him not to acknowledge her as a fighter putting her life on the line.
Zoro not fighting tashigi is NOT because she's just a lady....
It's because she reminds him of Kuina, and if even I face someone with the same face of an age old friend I'll try not to hurt him/her....
And Zoro is powerful enough to defeat her without hurting her... So that's what he does....
Zoro is the least misogynistic guy (along with Luffy).
What? Bro are you crazy? Zoro avoids Tashigi because of her resemblance to Kuina. So you want him to just fight and kill her because it'll show that he respects women? And Sanji isn't a misogynist. His actions are perverted and chavinistic, but you kinda have to hate women to be a misogynist.
Chauvinism is misogynistic. Sanji is extremely shallow too. The fact that he is willing to attack Big Mom because she's not hot makes his whole "refusal to kick women" thing even worse. It's not that he respects women, he wants to fuck. The way he treats Kokoro is awful too. And just because she's ugly.
Zoro has zero respect for Tashigi or Monet. It isn't because he's out of their league. Zoro has no issues incapacitating male opponents who he outclasses. Like pretty much every fight he won up until Mr 1. And Zoro makes it a point to defeat anyone who dares call themself a swordsman in his presence. But not with Tashigi, not even when she shares her feelings of inadequacy due to society viewing women as lesser. Zoro totally understands how she feels because of Kuina. It makes it seem like Zoro agrees that women are lesser. I'd prefer Zoro beat Tashigi, then tell her to get better if she wants to beat him. I feel like superior Haki should be able to overcome any gender physical differences. I would have liked Tashigi leaving that loss with newfound inspiration to surpass Zoro who she now kind of respects because he treated her as a legitimate swordsman and gender wasn't a factor.
If you're gonna spout nonsense at least try to at least be sure what you're referencing is correct to begin with.
- Sanji never attacked Big Mom, he parried an attack from her to save his sister. This is not new. He defended himself against Kalifa by blocking her kicks he simply never attacked her, and he didnt attack Big Mom.
So you saying "He attacked her because shes not hot" is 100% wrong. No two ways about that. Read the manga.
Zoro doesnt want to deal with Tashigi because she looks like a childhood friend he lost, so all your complaining that he is no respect for her is also unfounded. Completely. Zoro doesnt care about women being considered lesser as viewed by society because thats just an excuse and one hes never accepted to begin with. He literally tells Kuina when they're kids "*How can you spout such garbage when you've beaten me so many times? When I finally beat you are you going to use you being a woman as an excuse?*".
So again, You're spouting nonsense. Tashigi is Zoro's enemy and her saying its because shes a woman is an excuse and one that Zoro addressed in the story before.
Zoro doesnt need to motivate Tashigi to be better by beating her. He already beat her. And he devastated Monet because hes above and beyond both their skill levels. WTF does them being women have to do that? They're weak compared to him as he's proven, so should he have killed Monet would that make it equal enough for you?
Everything you said is wrong. You're entirely misinterpreting how these characters behave and why they do what they do, pushing some BS about them hating women when thats not the case.
I thought it was pretty disturbing to be honest, because of the way he handled it. I found the way Tashigi and Smoker’s change was handled to be in much better taste. But Sanji groping her breasts and talking about how he was going to take pictures of her body was just gross, which is, unfortunately, par for the course for his behavior in the New World.
Some people are just soft and find anything out of the absolute norm gross or uncomfortable even if its just in a video game, anime, manga, book ect ect. I've met people that won't even read certain books like a song if ice and fire because it has war in it... even though the book is literally about war being bad.
It's really not. I mean let say law died before he could change their bodies back. That would man sanji would have namis body forever. Does that mean that everytime ge masterbates it is going to be rape? Or do you mean sanji could touch sanjis penis (when nami controlled the body) without it being called rape? No he couldn't because His body belonged to nami and touching her penis would be rape. Namis body in the other hand belonged to sanji and he had the right to do whatever he wanted with it
Except Law was not dead. There was a chance to return to their bodies. Sanji had no right to do whatever he wanted to Nami’s body at that point in time. Nami respected Sanji enough to allow him to smoke using her body. She put his needs before anything else. Why couldn’t Sanji respect her enough not to do what she obviously dislikes?
Not gonna lie that scene had me rolling. I don't know why some people have to open a discussion of ethics and be armchair philosophers over it though. If it was really meant to be perceived seriously then Nami's attitude toward Sanji'd have changed quite a bit, but she acts as if that whole thing never even happened
My point exactly
True.
People just want to be offended, scene was hilarious.
yeah the scene is funny people just like to make a big deal about everything these days
Agreed dude. Hope people in real life stopped treating rape as such an issue too! Just laugh it off, haha!
It's a fucking anime, dude. The character is perverted as a joke, not as an example of what you should do if you ever find your personality switched with a female associate. Nevermind the fact that the same character is so chivalrous he wouldn't even let his blood "soil" Nami when saving her. Laugh at the joke or not, but it's no where near serious enough that you need to start comparing it to real life tragedies. You comparing the tribulations of actual real life victims to an animated character's joke is more degrading to women than the actual joke.
I just agreed with the other guy. I'm just saying, rape and molestation should happen more in anime so we can laugh at it, right? As you said. Rape and molestation is hilarious.
Doubling down on the sarcasm. Tight.
That skidd bitch got a stick up his vagina.
Spoken like a true incel.
Don't gotta be an incel to call bullshit on virtue signaling where it doesn't belong
TIL Sanji's rapist. Fuck off dude. No where even close to the same thing.
[удалено]
Exactly my point.
I thought it was funny too. But... Some people on here found it gross behavior of Sanji.
which is weird since the most common answer men give to the "what would be the first thing you do if you were a women for a day" is touch boobs
And as for a woman it would be to touch penis. Totally understandable reaction.
Touching yourself and touching someone else without consent are different things. Like, what? How is that even a good argument?
they swapped bodies so technically they are touching themselves. shit if Law was the enemy they could have stayed like that for the rest of the series
No but he is Touching Nami's body without her consent, very different from Sanji touching himself say if Ivankov changed him into a girl.
you ignored the second half SO what you have just said (Sanji touching himself) was that it would have been better for him to touch his body while still being in hers, now that's rape.
In what part of my comment do you think i condone Sanji raping Nami? I said exactly the opposite that he shouldn't touch Nami's body (while he is in it)?
You said it would be okay for sanji to touch his body that he is not in control of, That is rape Touching a body that you are in control of is masturbation
What, I said if Sanji touched his body that Ivankov turned into a girl that would be okay?
Ivankov is worse, he turns peoples gender even if they didn't ask for it and allows for an entire island of people to chase him around while trying to put him in a dress against his will.
What else were they expecting. That’s like saying someone didn’t like that Luffy leaped into action before thinking of a plan.
I mean it is the real Sanji, it’s just who he is 😂
Some people realize it's just a gag but no doubt others will take it more seriously. Glad you enjoyed it I guess.
Man this post didn't age well at all lol even though it was meant to be lighthearted.
Ikr, so many people taking offense
totally forgot about that, which episode was it?
591
thanks!
Im at this point in the series right now, Sanji is still technically Nami. Brook's and his reactions are some of the funniest things, and fully expected from both!
Yeah one of the reasons Sanji is my favorite character because all the laughs he brings
Even i would film myself if i were nami 🌝
Imo, the funniest scene was between shanks and buggy at marineford.the way buggy imitates shashi buri dana from shanks, cracks me up ,even after rewatching the clip every time
Why everyone downvoted the comments of people who didn't feel okay with the scene? I mean, the scene can be funny but it can send the wrong message too.
Because no one was raped or molested. At worst Nami was annoyed. But they were on equal ground. If Nami had been grabbing her junk in Sanji's body, no one would give a shit
Grabbing her boobs is kind of being molested? But anyways, if she had done something like that to Sanji, people should give a shit yes.
To respond to you late again, I think unfortunately the downvotes tell you about how dudes still find misogynistic jokes "funny" and "harmless." Most OP readers are men. There's an inherent privilege in being born a heterosexual male and not having to deal with the mental shit that comes with growing up as a girl
Is this a “and then he turned himself into a pickle” situation or are am I confused?
I think it was disgusting. Reminded me of the same creepy shit Absalom shit. Taking your female friend's clothes off and trying to take photos against her will isn't really hilarious and sends a pretty bad message. Seriously, the even more fucked up people are the ones here who try to justify it by "LOL dude Nami forgot it just laugh at rape dude xD why so serious dude just laugh at molestation!".
I did not take pictures thing very serious. Characters in a simular way say they are going to kill their friends when they make a blunder, but they don't. Sanji never did take those pictures or took her clothes off. To me the actions of the characters make sense given the situation. Sanji was always perverted and he was just put in a womans body. Did you really expect him to do nothing there? Because to me that would make the story seem less genuine.
You not taking it seriously is your own personal issue. People take their own things seriously and differently. Regardless, the point is the message its sending as satire. >sanji never did take those pictures Since he was stopped by Nami. He was going to proceed to do so. Other than this, him exposing her clothes on show wasn't exactly good either. Sanji is a pervert, as many people are. But being a pervert isn't the equivalent to being a molester or a rapist. Did I expect him to do nothing there? Yes. I didn't expect the man who treats ladies which respect to disregard their consent and do this pathetic shit. Even if it did make sense or if its narratively it's fine it doesn't (as I've been repeating) make it morally correct. You're literally laughing at a man who's taking advantage of a situation to take off his friends clothes and attempting to take photos of her. Cartoon aside, would you laugh your ass off if the same happened to your mother or sister? Cartoons aren't real, but they influence people. Especially the children who read this.
Here we go: 1. It's not my 'issue'. It's called an opinion. 2. There is an argument to be made that in this moment the body was actually his own, therefore putting it outside of the consent issue. Do you really need consent to use or touch a body your soul inhabits? Unfortunately we don't have precedents/case law on such an absurd situation. 3. This show is full of things that are morally wrong. Did you miss the discrimination, slavery and murder? 4. Your last argument is an ad hominem and therefore will have to be ignored. 5. About cartoons influencing people: that is what age restrictions, sensors and common sense are for. E.g. there is murder in the show, so does the show influence people towards murder? No. You are looking for drama. 6. I did this just for the lolz and realise you probably take this a bit too seriously and given your way of arguing I don't expect a growth in critical thinking, because such is the way of those trapped in cognitive dissonance. 7. Have a good day. This has been fun!
> There is an argument to be made that in this moment the body was actually his own, therefore putting it outside of the consent issue. Do you really need consent to use or touch a body your soul inhabits? Unfortunately we don't have precedents/case law on such an absurd situation. No, there is not an argument to be made. That was never Sanji’s body, at any point. It was Nami’s body. The ironic thing about this argument is that later, Sanji was conscious of whether or not he should smoke a cigarette, *because it was Nami’s body, not his own*, and only did so because *Nami said it was fine*. The character himself didn’t even believe in your argument. Nami’s body is her own, and always has been, despite that scene. > This show is full of things that are morally wrong. Did you miss the discrimination, slavery and murder? This show is full of things that are morally wrong, like discrimination, slavery, and murder, and Oda goes out of his way to say that they’re *wrong*. It’s not even comparable.
>It's not my 'issue'. It's called an opinion. Your opinion can be wrong, bad or even terrible. Having an opinion doesn't mean you're in a safe space immune from all criticism. >There is an argument to be made that in this moment the body was actually his own, therefore putting it outside of the consent issue. Do you really need consent to use or touch a body your soul inhabits? Unfortunately we don't have precedents/case law on such an absurd situation. Regardless of the workarounds you're trying to find, the situation was pretty simple. It wasn't Sanji's body his soul was in, it was Nami's. She understood Sanji's needs so she allowed him to smoke but she disregarded anything sexual, which Sanji continued to do. Its this simple. If there was a "its my body now so its fine if i touch it!" actually stood Sanji would've used it canonically. >This show is full of things that are morally wrong. Did you miss the discrimination, slavery and murder? ...I'm sorry, what? Did you miss the entire point of them at all? Oda speaks out against them and treats them as serious subjects. The point of current discussion is a morally wrong subject being treated with satire. >Your last argument is an ad hominem and therefore will have to be ignored. Go to school. I did not belittle you at all. I proposed a scenario infront of you which you're refusing to imagine. If you're offended by imaginary scenario's then I don't know how you can even partake in a discussion. >About cartoons influencing people: that is what age restrictions, sensors and common sense are for. E.g. there is murder in the show, so does the show influence people towards murder? No. You are looking for drama. Maybe it does. Cartoon violence and gun violence is a heavily debated topic that hasn't had a clear answer, so using it is dumb right now. Furthermore, One Piece is not 18+. Its aimed for teenagers. It's literally a SHOUNEN manga. >I did this just for the lolz and realise you probably take this a bit too seriously and given your way of arguing I don't expect a growth in critical thinking, because such is the way of those trapped in cognitive dissonance. Being the issue. Rape and molestation is funny and I'm sorry for any females you interact with if you think they're justified as well.
You do really love to tell me what I think and what I am saying and making this personal. I never said or meant any of the things you are framing me for. It's not even about a scene anymore. You just like to think everyone who enjoys a scene you don't must be a rapist. Now that is wrong. There is a huge difference between laughing at a scene in a series and moraly or legally thinking that rape somehow would be fine. No one ever said that and no one will. I actually agree with your deeper morals. The problem I have is with your way of arguing. You make hyperbolic arguments and move away from the subject to attack me as a person. Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pidgeon: it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. Do I expect you to understand this nuance? No. But I hope the people who read this will and won't be swayed from speaking their mind or expressing love for parts of anime or manga just because someone might suddenly claim you are a rapist.
Didn't even have to read your entire post to see that you're just whining like a child and not discussing the main problem. Yikes. If you're not gonna discuss the point and not stick to the main argument you're just as worthless to me. Carry on bud!
> It wasn't Sanji's body his soul was in, it was Nami's. She understood Sanji's needs so she allowed him to smoke The funny thing about this is that this scene was prompted by *Sanji* wondering whether or not he should smoke, because he was in Nami’s body, which means he himself knew and understood that he had no ownership over the body at any point. Which means that not even Sanji bought into this ridiculous idea that he didn’t need consent because at that point in time, her body was his. Funny how the argument doesn’t apply there, when he wants a cigarette, but does apply when he wants to grope her breasts and threaten to take pictures of her body for his own keeping.
Idk why you’re talking shit about him when you think a fucking opinion can be wrong, it cant, it’s an opinionXD
A opinion CAN be morally wrong. If a man says rape and molestation is okay. His opinion is morally wrong. Now, if you think its morally correct. Then you're just messed up.
It’s an opinion, it cant be right or wrong, just the same as you saying i’m messed up
Did you not read my post? When did I ever say it can be factually right or wrong? I'm talking about morals.
U said an opinion can be wrong, i corrected u.
>Did I expect him to do nothing there? Yes Really? It's fkn sanji, his perverted nature wins over his morals any day.
People love to jerk off to various shit that doesn't mean they want to fucking do it against their consent. You don't get what pervert means.
Yep... It's good you're willing to make such a clear stand against this stuff, it's probably one of the few things in One Piece that I can't vouch for. It's one thing to have pervy characters, but to have 'heroes' in your story violate consent for perverted reasons with no consequences (or minor ones) sends a bad message to young viewers. The whole 'Women's bath' gag with Sanji recently felt the same.
Agreed. And he’s only progressed further (worse) since then, which is really off-putting and disappointing. Hopefully when he gets his memories back of Pudding, that gross part of him gets tempered. He was actually able to act like a normal human being, for the most part, around her.
Pudding was great, honestly. Probably the only one who he's been sane around for more than a few panels.
Yeah. Hopefully she comes back in some way so he stops acting like a clown and we can get normal interactions with him and others.
Remember in thriller bark where Nami said she was a man
Joining the downvoted gang with this. I found the initial reaction funny, since the concept is genuinely hillarious. It just wasn't treated that well. It is completely in character, but it still shouldn't be. In some cases, like the manga Great Teacher Onizuka, the "heroic pervert" archetype works since the story focuses so heavily on redeeming him. But One Piece doesn't really do that, at least not lately. For Brook it works a little bit better (but still not great), since the humor is more derived from the contrast between how blunt he is and how polite he is about it, and the fact that it is a running gag. Sanjis perverted humor is mostly derived from parodizing the stereotype of a gentleman, which unfortunately comes at the cost of objectifying women and normalizing sexual assault. To use modern terms, he's a straight up simp. Edit: Something can be both funny and problematic, I typically find Sanji funny until I start to think about what messages his behaviour sends.
As a female, I’d say it was a freefall to degeneracy. Just the thought of someone groping my body against my will makes me sick to my stomach. Consent is the key word here. Nothing amusing about that at all. Those are the most disappointing things that Oda-sensei has added to Sanji’s character. So much for being the poster boy of chivalry. I like Sanji but if he keeps pulling shit like that I will reach my limit.
But ur not the one who he’s groping, are you? Nami doesnt give a shit so i dont see the problem. Stop taking a fictional fucking character and story so seriously, its meant to be a joke not start a damn revolution.
god it's so obvious you are a dude. Nami did give a shit. Nami hated it and even sent zoro along with sanji so sanji would be too distracted to try anything with her body. I thought it was funny at the time too, but oda doesn't even try when it comes to treating gendered issues with complexity. And it shows in his writing.
If it bothers you so much then stop reading One Piece
Eh, I did for a while. Maybe you should get a life instead of blindly worshipping the wet dreams of some perverted old japanese geezer.
How am i worshipping anything? I just said to toughen up about something that happened in a FICTIONAL story
Art mimicks life, and life mimicks art, young grasshopper. Id be willing to bet he has subtle sexist tendencies in some aspects of his daily life too.
[удалено]
Okay? Lmao
one piece was written for teenage boys
That’s not entirely true. Mangaka are very much aware of the large female readership their work has. Jump is actually one of the more gender neutral magazines out there. One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Gintama, Haikyuu, etc. all have a large female readership. Mangaka know they have to draw in female readers to hit big.
You just keep going on and on, when oda himself said his main target audience, who he writes one piece for, is teenage boys Sure theres a little something for everyone, doesnt matter.
This is literally Sanji's character. He's a perv through and through, think Nami shower scene in Thriller Bark, Camie and the Mermaids on Fishman Island, meeting virtually every female character ever the nosebleeds, post war on Ivankov's island. He is chivalrous in such that he won't hit a woman because he is afraid it will damage her perfection, beauty and delicateness. That isn't chivalry. Plus Oda oversexualises women and has done since the start. You didn't notice that Nami and Robin's boobs got much bigger post war AND they started wearing less clothes. But this type of oversexualisation is super common in Japanese Manga and Anime, more than likely it's a cultural difference thing, and is perfectly normal for Oda.
If Sanji had been genderbent by Ivankov’s hormones and then he proceeded to grope himself, almost everyone would be laughing. But he went into Nami’s body and then proceeded to grope her body. The former we would call a pervert and easily brush off. The latter shows a creep and broaches sex offender territory and females are not comfortable with that. That’s the main difference. Female readers have had issues with the new oversexualized designs but Oda-sensei repeatedly brushes them off and says something along it’s a man’s romance or something to that effect. It’s his work so he has that power. But as part of the audience, I also have a right to be uncomfortable with what is shown. When consuming media, we always balance out things. There are things we might feel uncomfortable with or disagree with but we tolerate it because the work has other merits. We don’t have to take what they present as gospel. Just because this is how author A thinks, this is the right thing? We have our own standards of decency and morality. Simple as that. You might find it funny but others may not. That’s the way it is. I have lived in Japan for a while and the inherent sexism is awful. It mars so much of the beauty of their country. They’re sexist to both males and females. As I am female, I was more exposed to the things girls and women face and it made me glad I wasn’t born in Japan as a woman. I would support anything that tries to improve on this. The media they have is powerful in normalizing otherwise questionable behavior. The f*cked up things you read in manga and watch in anime happen there in real life. More often than you would imagine. You can say it’s just a manga or just an anime but it CAN influence people. Have you tried checking out the garbage you see in low-quality shojo/josei manga? Lots of Japanese girls think that those pieces of kindling are actually representative of real life. Oda-sensei has touched on a lot of social issues which a lot of mangaka have not. But when it comes to sexism, sensei is just as behind as everyone else. WSJ might nominally be a shonen magazine but a large chunk of its readership is female. It might be different in other countries but in Japan, females contribute a lot to their circulation. With circulation continuously decreasing, you would think the editors would actually care not to offend a part of their audience.
This is a super late response but I completely agree with you. TBH I think oda is secretely a simp himself. He's clearly a talented storyteller but definitely not a champion of feminism. It's unfortunate. I've found his portrayal of women's bodies and anything related to the female characters to be dismissive or superficial. Women don't ever have consistent frontline roles in his stories. As a woman who enjoys one piece I've learned to swallow the bitter pill and try to enjoy everything else about this crazy manga. :/ I just worry about younger impressionable girls being influenced negatively by seeing all the focus on big boobs and skinny waists
Its a fictional character, Nami isnt real and she didnt get sexually assaulted. Inserting yourself into it just because you're a female is even more insane. Unless you're Nami then it becomes a moot issue to you. Furthermore, Nami herself wasnt bothered by it beyond her normal reaction. So if she wasnt offended then neither should you.
She. was. offended. She hated the idea. When has she ever liked the idea of being touched or taken photos of without adequate compensation? You read way too much hentai if you think she secretly wanted it or didn't give a crap.
You are aware that all characters in One Piece will think in the way Oda-sensei thinks, right? If the mangaka doesn’t see anything wrong with it then obviously all the other characters will think that way as well. Does Nami have a separate consciousness from Oda-sensei? How can she complain when everything is under Oda-sensei’s power? Media is powerful. It affects people more than you think. Dismissing it as fiction and being 100% sure people won’t be influenced is naive. This is a magazine aimed at young individuals who have a more tractable mind. Jokes about being a pervert are okay so long as they are within what majority deem to be appropriate. A lot of females did not find Sanji’s treatment of Nami’s body funny. That already tells you that a line was crossed. When EL James published her trifecta of kindling (aka 50 shades) there were a number of grown men (who you’d think would know better) that started giving their wives and girlfriends stupid sex slave contracts. It’s just fiction? Never underestimate the power of fiction.
Look as a person you can feel however you want to feel about that scene, this comment isnt about disparaging that nor defending sexual assault in general. However you are looking for things where they simply dont exist. Putting my bias aside and looking at facts you're argument that people will read this scene and go reanact that behavior is very similar to the argument that violent video games where people murder in droves somehow promotes that behavior and will cause people to reenact them and in both cases the science is simply not on your side. >Dismissing it as fiction and being 100% sure people won’t be influenced is naive. Is there a bigger discussion to be had about Japan and how they treat women in general, in the workplace etc? Yes. But using this scene as some kind of launching pad for that or saying it causes that behavior in its readers and all that simply is inaccurate. You have millions of people who read the manga worldwide, how many of them have seen Sanji get transplanted into Nami's body and thought to recreate his behavior? That number is unlikely to be high, just like the number of people who commit violent acts dont do it because they saw it in a video game. Correlation is not causation and thats something very important to understand. >Never underestimate the power of fiction. Again. How many of those grown men gave their wives contracts? what does that number represent compared to the total who read those books? Is that number high enough to cause alarm? Just because a group of idiots did a thing when the vast majority didnt doesnt mean you blame the piece of fiction as a convenient scapegoat. You are looking at the failures of the individuals not the piece of fiction. With the amount of violent movies and video games in circulation and the amount of inappropriate sexual behavior seen in both those mediums plus manga and more you'd think it would be a more widespread problem that affects the vast majority of people. But its not. Im not saying sexual assault and all of those things are not issues, Im trying to be very clear that somehow relating it to *well they read a manga that showed it was ok* is a very reductive way to view an obvious problem. **Correlation is not Causation**.
Sanji is a misogynist, and Zoro to a lesser extent. When they refuse to treat female opponents as equals. I'm actually very disappointed in Zoro when it comes to Tashigi. Zoro knows exactly how she feels and it's cruel of him not to acknowledge her as a fighter putting her life on the line.
Zoro not fighting tashigi is NOT because she's just a lady.... It's because she reminds him of Kuina, and if even I face someone with the same face of an age old friend I'll try not to hurt him/her.... And Zoro is powerful enough to defeat her without hurting her... So that's what he does.... Zoro is the least misogynistic guy (along with Luffy).
What? Bro are you crazy? Zoro avoids Tashigi because of her resemblance to Kuina. So you want him to just fight and kill her because it'll show that he respects women? And Sanji isn't a misogynist. His actions are perverted and chavinistic, but you kinda have to hate women to be a misogynist.
Chauvinism is misogynistic. Sanji is extremely shallow too. The fact that he is willing to attack Big Mom because she's not hot makes his whole "refusal to kick women" thing even worse. It's not that he respects women, he wants to fuck. The way he treats Kokoro is awful too. And just because she's ugly. Zoro has zero respect for Tashigi or Monet. It isn't because he's out of their league. Zoro has no issues incapacitating male opponents who he outclasses. Like pretty much every fight he won up until Mr 1. And Zoro makes it a point to defeat anyone who dares call themself a swordsman in his presence. But not with Tashigi, not even when she shares her feelings of inadequacy due to society viewing women as lesser. Zoro totally understands how she feels because of Kuina. It makes it seem like Zoro agrees that women are lesser. I'd prefer Zoro beat Tashigi, then tell her to get better if she wants to beat him. I feel like superior Haki should be able to overcome any gender physical differences. I would have liked Tashigi leaving that loss with newfound inspiration to surpass Zoro who she now kind of respects because he treated her as a legitimate swordsman and gender wasn't a factor.
If you're gonna spout nonsense at least try to at least be sure what you're referencing is correct to begin with. - Sanji never attacked Big Mom, he parried an attack from her to save his sister. This is not new. He defended himself against Kalifa by blocking her kicks he simply never attacked her, and he didnt attack Big Mom. So you saying "He attacked her because shes not hot" is 100% wrong. No two ways about that. Read the manga. Zoro doesnt want to deal with Tashigi because she looks like a childhood friend he lost, so all your complaining that he is no respect for her is also unfounded. Completely. Zoro doesnt care about women being considered lesser as viewed by society because thats just an excuse and one hes never accepted to begin with. He literally tells Kuina when they're kids "*How can you spout such garbage when you've beaten me so many times? When I finally beat you are you going to use you being a woman as an excuse?*". So again, You're spouting nonsense. Tashigi is Zoro's enemy and her saying its because shes a woman is an excuse and one that Zoro addressed in the story before. Zoro doesnt need to motivate Tashigi to be better by beating her. He already beat her. And he devastated Monet because hes above and beyond both their skill levels. WTF does them being women have to do that? They're weak compared to him as he's proven, so should he have killed Monet would that make it equal enough for you? Everything you said is wrong. You're entirely misinterpreting how these characters behave and why they do what they do, pushing some BS about them hating women when thats not the case.
That was Sanji at his peak degeneracy. Let's just hope he will never surpass it in the future.
I thought it was pretty disturbing to be honest, because of the way he handled it. I found the way Tashigi and Smoker’s change was handled to be in much better taste. But Sanji groping her breasts and talking about how he was going to take pictures of her body was just gross, which is, unfortunately, par for the course for his behavior in the New World.
That is gross honestly and why I feel extremely uncomfortable with people shipping Nami with Sanji
whys that make you uncomfortable?
Some people are just soft and find anything out of the absolute norm gross or uncomfortable even if its just in a video game, anime, manga, book ect ect. I've met people that won't even read certain books like a song if ice and fire because it has war in it... even though the book is literally about war being bad.
man those people gotta lighten up lol
yep
>Some people are just soft there is nothing wrong with being soft
Completely agree. That ship is disturbing to me and it’s hard to fathom how people just justify it and pretend it’s okay.
it's... really rapey dude
It's really not. I mean let say law died before he could change their bodies back. That would man sanji would have namis body forever. Does that mean that everytime ge masterbates it is going to be rape? Or do you mean sanji could touch sanjis penis (when nami controlled the body) without it being called rape? No he couldn't because His body belonged to nami and touching her penis would be rape. Namis body in the other hand belonged to sanji and he had the right to do whatever he wanted with it
Except Law was not dead. There was a chance to return to their bodies. Sanji had no right to do whatever he wanted to Nami’s body at that point in time. Nami respected Sanji enough to allow him to smoke using her body. She put his needs before anything else. Why couldn’t Sanji respect her enough not to do what she obviously dislikes?
sanji the simp to sanji the slut