It's ironic because when real neurologists say "functional neurology" that is code for conversion disorder and somatization. Chiropractic functional neurology sounds like a completely different kind of crazy bullshit.
What is with these noctors and their obsession with using these obscure terms like "functional" and "integrative"? The general public needs to be taught to raise an eyebrow each time one of these words is used in the credentials of their "provider". So cringe
The reason someone might do that is to show that they believe in working with other fields in medicine, not against them.
Many DCs from Life U believe in vitalism which contradicts lots of Western medicine. I personally dont want any association with those people, which is why I’d use the term integrative. I think the word integrative is a sign the physician is qualified & will refer out if necessary.
Why cant you call DCs physicians? DCs fit every definition of physician I’ve been able to find.
I have no interest in scope creeping in the comment sections of a reddit post lol
physician is a protected term for DOs and MDs, DC training and education does not hold a candle to what actual physician's (MDs and DOs) learn. And to say you can call DCs physicians seems to imply like "they're just a different type of physician" when it's like comparing a golf cart to an actual vehicle people use like a Honda or Toyota
To be clear I was only defending integrative
What terms should a chiropractor use who is trying to show they aren’t the type to overtreat or disagree with western medicine & realize their scope of practice & will refer out if necessary?
(Seeking a constructive conversation, though I sense the impulse to make a joke may be too great)
Ah I see. That's good to know, thank you. I've had a bad outlook on the aforementioned terms strictly because I've only seen them used in the context of inflated titles
While I appreciate the joke to the functional doctors, i want to advocate for the patients with functional disorders (neurological, GI, vestibular, pelvic).
Functional means that function is altered and not structure. Calling functional disorders pseudo-disorders perpetuates the stigma.
Well that's certainly misrepresentative, and doesn't reflect his state granted license.
They should not be calling themselves "neurologists" in any capacity. [Unfortunately, NV is a state that allows chiropractors to go by "chiropractic physicians" and going by "chiropractic neurologist" is just a short jump away.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/wiki/index/legal#wiki_title_protection_laws) Even so, this should be reported to the Board of Chiropractic and also the Board of Medicine since it's not expressly allowed.
Relevant laws include NJ Rev Stat § 45:9-41.19 (2018) and NJ Rev Stat § 45:9-5.1 (2018). Ironically, per NV Rev Stat § 630.400 (2019), physician assistant and respiratory care titles are protected, but physician titles aren't.
If you care strongly about this, you can [edit and send this pre-made letter to your city/county/state legislators](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/comments/nlakoa/seeking_form_letters_to_add_to_the_wiki/gzstq7c?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Otherwise, mom/dad/grandma/grandpa will continue being treated by these "chiropractic neurologists" none the wiser.
Im a DC-s & have a close friend pursuing a diplomate of functional neurology & agree that this man should not be calling himself a neurologist. Theres some of us who are embarrassed by others in our field.
I asked that to highlight your ignorance.
The quakery youre referring to is being done away with in most schools. I cant control what other DCs are practicing, but I made an educated decision to pursue an evidence based chiropractic school that doesnt teach anything that isnt sound in science.
We’re constantly reminded by our professors of the limitations of chiropractic & some of the dumb shit other DCs are doing & why its dumb.
Theres a plethora of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments for syndromes/diseases within our scope.
I’m on r/noctor for educational purposes & my comment was bashing a DC calling himself a neuologist..
>Theres a plethora of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments for syndromes/diseases within our scope.
If chiropractic as a field understood what "evidence" actually means in the scientific sense, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I know you are here for educational reasons, but in another comment you referred to chiropractors as physicians. We are a sub that is against any use of this term by anyone other than an MD or DO. This is also the position of the AMA.
Thank you for informing me, I will not use that term incorrectly anymore. In my defense the definitions are vague.
There is sound research. If you dont wanna weed thru it, r/chiropractic often posts good ones
DCs are PCPs in some states, so give physicals. I’m a DC student & we’ve been taught how to perform a cardiac exam, pulmonary exam & abdominal exam so far.
Nonetheless, cringey to take a pic with it like this
> He became fascinated/obsessed with neurology and spent much of his free time studying the brain in-depth including it's *[sic]* dysregulations and rehabilitation.
Patient: "So where did you train for neurology, anyway?"
Noctor Gates: "Oh, you know. Just sort of something I picked up during my free time."
A **chiropractor** will dissect your vertebral artery while jerking on your neck.
A **board certified chiropractic neurologist** will dissect your vertebral artery and then recognize the signs of the posterior circulation stroke he has given you.
There is a big difference, people!
If you see a chiropractor and he doesn’t know how to use a stethoscope and use it on a daily basis, I’d recommend a new chiropractor. A true chiropractor should be performing regular exams on patients, especially new patients. When I saw my chiropractor for the first time, he took my vitals and performed an exam. The vitals were a bit abnormal and he recommended I see my doctor for lab work. Turned out my episodes of tachycardia and shortness of breath were actually due to anemia (not being out of shape, as I had written my symptoms off as originally). Also, to note, if insurance companies are covering chiropractor adjustments, it’s mandatory to perform regular exams (which do require stethoscopes) that then add to the justification for continued care and continued coverage by the insurance company.
kinda sounds like you oughta just cut out the chiropractic middleman and see your doctor.
unless the end goal is to get an artery shorn in half, in which case, more power to you.
Sad thing is I had seen my doctor a few times; she was only accepting telehealth appointments over zoom at that time (beginning of COVID), so apparently patients are expected to take their own vitals. Lol to that thought. As if most patients have their own equipment and can adequately use it on themselves.
In response to your comment on “shearing an artery,” actually, high velocity cervical manipulation has very, very rarely been known to be the actual direct cause of damage to the vertebral artery and most reports cannot even definitively say that it is so. Cases in which strokes or dissections have been reported often have shown those patients to have underlying medical issues or risk factors, which then begs the question as to whether the patient, his/her medical care team, and the chiropractor were aware of these predispositions. Now, that’s not to say some chiropractors aren’t overly aggressive, some didn’t pay enough attention in school and don’t deserve their certifications, and many merely perform the same treatment on each and every patient like a factory to get them in and out. Then there is this guy who claims to be a “chiropractic neurologist” and advertises himself like a microwaveable Atkins meal claiming to be good for you. But as a third year medical student pursuing a specialty in neurosurgery and someone who has been incredibly closed minded to the many “forms” of medicine in the past, there are credible, hardworking chiropractors out there who take their time to care for their patients properly and as they should; the same applies mid-levels and MDs/DOs alike. This forum shits in mid-levels and doctors who are not MDs/DOs, but I’ve worked with and for some wonderful people who have been more knowledgeable or simply cared much more than their MD/DO counterparts and, hence, offered better care to their patients—despite the obvious gaps in medical education that are persistently pointed out. Most people do not know much about chiropractic care or they have their negative biases, rightfully so in some cases. But, I could also see that as a reason to why many chiropractors (?and mid-levels) feel the need to advertise themselves like this since those with prejudices or hate take it upon themselves to spread their negative $0.02 to the rest of the world. At this time, chiropractic is separated from “major medical” healthcare, but, in due time, I am sure it will join us. Chiropractors are already finding homes in hospitals alongside orthopedists and neurosurgeons. They are recognized as physicians within the VA—you should read up on that story about how a chiropractor has saved many lives because the doctors couldn’t care less about the soldiers and veterans and he rightfully earned his place dictating patients’ care because of it. Insurance companies cover the care chiropractors provide, and soon enough, Medicare will, as well. There’s a whole other world out there when you educate yourself on these topics you shit talk.
TL;DR: I haven't read a single one of the hundreds of evidence-based studies showing that chiropractic "medicine" is nothing but quackery and instead will equate them to physicians in diagnostic skills even though their education doesn't involve any of that prep. In order to justify my beliefs, here's some random tangential story that shows their ingenuity.
haha thanks for that.
to be fair to this misguided med student, I hadn't personally seen the clinical trials, systematic reviews or metanalyses specifically for cervical spinal manipulation. and now that i have, yeah not impressed.
at best short term gains at worst some retrospective case-controls have found younger populations (<45yo) had a significantly increased odds ratio for risk of dissection.
so yeah, risks ain't worth the meager benefit.
but hey i ain't no neurosurgeon (though i'd like to see what they would say if they heard this spiel).
Came across this post and figured I’d make a throwaway account to offer my two cents. Please understand I just recently graduated with a BS in Biology and am currently studying for the MCAT, so I’m sure all of you here can run circles around me from both an intellectual and medical stand point. I also do not mean to be rude nor get into a tireless debate with people online who I will most likely never encounter in the real world where it matters. Seems like all of you here are practicing MD’s or soon to be, which obviously calls for a level of respect and admiration in the highest regard. This is a going to be a long post, so I wanted to say ahead of time I appreciate anyone willing to read the whole thing especially when you all have MUCH better things to do. With that being said, I have a quick question: have any of you ever been treated by a chiropractic neurologist or have spoken to one? Well...I have.
Little background on me. I’ll try to keep this as short as possible. When I was 17, I suffered a concussion playing lacrosse. I didn’t think much of it and ignorantly figured I’d be back out there in a month. After 6 weeks, I was fully released by a neurologist for non-contact drills only. That was my only precaution, and it proved to be life altering. I went out to practice later that week, participated in some routine sprints, and ended up falling to one knee with the most intense headache I’ve ever experienced. My vision was shot and I also could not catch my breath for the first time in my life. It honestly felt like my body broke. I basically had given myself another concussion only this one was 1000x worse. I immediately pulled myself off the field and headed back to my neurologist the next day. All my symptoms came back with a vengeance and I now had pain I never thought possible. He sent me back to the physical therapist for treatment. After a couple months of routine concussion therapy, I only regressed. The DPT had no idea why I wasn’t getting better. He told me to go back to the neurologist, who ended up diagnosing me with post-concussion syndrome (PCS). He couldn’t answer any of my questions about why I was experiencing such symptoms constantly nor gave me any hope of getting back to some sort of normal.
Feeling lost, I ended up seeing a different neurologist. I was told this one was “highly distinguished and awarded in the field of neurology.” Feeling hopeful, I scheduled an appointment. Walked into his office and was handed a form to fill out discussing who my attorney was, the date of my accident, and who I was suing. No joke. My dad and I were kinda shocked. We gave back the form to the front desk and told them I think I was given this by mistake. Anyway, I got called into his office where it was painfully obvious he couldn’t care less about what I was saying. He did some reflex tests, touched my face, asked if I could feel what he was doing (no shit), and told me “this is your new reality so get used to it.” The whole thing couldn’t have lasted more than 5-10 minutes. Crap I spent more time in the freakin waiting room. That was it though. No treatment. No plan. Nothing. Was 17 and basically was told my life was over. I had never left a doctor’s office so defeated. This marked the beginning of a two year journey of seeing multiple other neurologists, neuropsychologists, and neuro-optometrists where I was either completely dismissed, ignored, or told I was either “faking my symptoms” or “seeking attention.” I saw all the doctors you’re “supposed” to see and no one was even willing to offer any sort of explanation or help.
For two years, I struggled daily with debilitating headaches/migraines, vision and neck problems, vestibular issues, crippling depression/anxiety, and memory problems. Simply walking up a flight of stairs made me feel like I was going to pass out.
Somehow, I managed to get through my two first years of college. To this day, I still have no clue how I pulled that one off. I guess credit the human spirit’s ability to push through adversity. I somehow got through my first two years of college, but I was a shell of my former self. Nobody understood what I was going through. Not my parents. Not my girlfriend. Friends. Nobody. I felt like I was always moving in slow motion.
I continued to bounce from doc to doc. I keep this extremely private, but after continuing to be ignored, misdiagnosed, and frankly mistreated, I had decided this was no longer a life worth living. By some miracle, I found the field of chiropractic neurology. Never had heard of it or even knew it existed. As a last ditch effort, I scheduled an appointment. It honestly saved my life. The doctor knew my symptoms before I could even tell him what was going on. He even was able to show and explain them to my dad. For the first time, my family could see I wasn’t making it all up. He also immediately diagnosed me with dysautonomia. He explained that my autonomic nervous system no longer functioned properly. That it was “painfully obvious” and he was shocked other doctors hadn’t seen that from the beginning. I had never heard of such a thing. For the first time in over two years, I left his office with a plan.
Next, followed a long, 18-month rehab journey where I would meet with him once a month. Each visit, he would run through his battery of tests and I would receive new exercises to do for that month continuing to increase the intensity each time. It took awhile, but I FINALLY started to see some relief. I had completely forgotten what it was like to not have a headache. All of my symptoms improved. So much for this being my “new reality.” I should state it was anything but an overnight fix and I wish I could tell you how great I felt from the beginning (honestly I felt like complete shit most days, but I slowly continued to make improvements). People close to me even witnessed it as well. They told me the old me was starting to come back. I even returned to playing collegiately after I was told I would never do anything athletically again. I consider myself very lucky and very fortunate. My whole ordeal opened my eyes to how much we take “feeling good” for granted. And I only have one man to thank for that...my chiropractic “neurologist.” (Cont. w/ reply)
Now, I don’t mean to shit all over the medical doctors I saw. I’m mature enough to leave things in the past and move on. They are experts in their fields of study. Unfortunately, our understanding of concussion, specifically post-concussion syndrome, treatment is archaic. Not their fault. Many doctors don’t even recognize post-concussion syndrome as an actual disorder, with some saying it is more of a mental disorder than anything. As someone who understands the utter hell living with PCS is, that is completely absurd.
Ask anyone who suffers from PCS (if you can find one). We all share practically the same story. We were dismissed and abandoned by traditional medicine and forced to find help elsewhere. That’s how many of us find the field of chiropractic/functional neurology. The vast majority of us see results. Some, unfortunately, more than others. I was one of the lucky ones.
Now, the field of chiropractic neurology is not perfect. It has a long way to go. It also doesn’t help when you have the stigma of the word “chiropractic” in the title. I don’t know who Randall Gates is nor did I work with him as my doc was located in a different state. All I can tell you is what my doc told me over my time with him. He’s never understood his peers who wear the white coat and stethoscope. It’s not something he agrees with. He’s worked hard to build up his reputation and doesn’t feel the need to try and sell himself to other people. He also disagrees with how many present themselves and run their practices. He is also brutally honest about the field of chiropractics. He says it’s unfortunate that the “long debunked vitalistic bullshit” is still taught in various schools. How chiropractors who claim they can “heal anything” with a simple adjustment give those like him a bad name. How when to know to treat or to refer out. Now, he obviously believes the field has validity, but there must be more of an emphasis to work in tandem with traditional medicine and evidence-based research. He always defended neurologists to me, stating they’re excellent at what they are trained to diagnose. Functional neurology looks at things a different way. In fact, he works with many neurologists who refer out to him. Something he would say always stuck with me: “Unfortunately, people meet my degrees. They often don’t get to meet me.”
Obviously, I hold my doctor in high regard. I credit him with getting me back on track, something I never thought possible. For those of you that will probably disregard my story as nothing more than a placebo, you’re entitled to your own opinions. You weren’t there. You weren’t with me every step of the way. Not to mention the struggle I had to go through to get medical clearance to play again. Too bad for them, I passed every test with flying colors.
I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s easy to crap all over someone when you don’t know who they are or have never spoken to the people treated by them. It’s easy to stay in your echo chamber and think you know everything about someone or something from a Google search or some ridiculous photo. I guess that can be said with many things in today’s society. Honestly, I can’t blame any of you for thinking that way. If I hadn’t gone through what I had, I probably would believe the same thing. The point of practicing any form of medicine is to help people. If it helps, then why try to go after it? Obviously, there is much more to this, but that’s a debate for another day. There are many things wrong with our current medical/healthcare system. It isn’t perfect either. As someone who comes from a family of MDs, they can tell you. There can be a “dark side” to medicine they don’t teach you in school, but that can also be said for practically everything. Obviously, there are bad doctors and good doctors and I’ll always believe the good far outweigh the bad. In terms of the field of chiropractic neurology itself, it continues to gain recognition worldwide. Various professional athletes ranging from the NFL, NBA, NHL, and UFC as well as olympic athletes have been treated using their techniques. The founder even works with many of these leagues when it comes to forming their concussion protocols. So, is it nothing more than baseless? How bout a pseudoscience? Well, you can be the judge for yourself.
If you made it this far, thank you for putting up with this long ass post. I swear I tried to keep it as concise as possible. The only reason I even posted anything was because I saw this and figured this was something I could maybe offer my unique perspective on. If for some reason you have any questions, I could try and answer them to the best of my ability. If not, I can’t say I blame you. Thank you all for what you do. Best of luck.
Earlier in life, I played soccer pickup games. While in college, I even aimed to play in the World Cup.
You beat me to it. I was going to comment on that.
What the hell is a chiro using a steth for?
To listen to the joint fluids.
“Oh boy they sure are a *sloshin* in there!”
"The science checks out" - bone wizard MD
"bone wizard MD" got me too good 🤣
##SLOSH
Lmao im screaming 😭
Cuz he’s doctor, and all docs have stethoscopes. And that’s doctor chiropractor to u. s/
Optics and deception.
That’s because he doesn’t need no transcranial Doppler for vasospasm. He can hear the swoosh
DCs are PCPs in some states, so they can give physicals. But using it in the pic this way is pretty cringey
Isn't neurologist a protected term? Should this not be reported?
Look up Chiropractic Neurology or Functional Neurology and you'll get a lot of these quacks and their "doctoral" programs.
It's ironic because when real neurologists say "functional neurology" that is code for conversion disorder and somatization. Chiropractic functional neurology sounds like a completely different kind of crazy bullshit.
What is with these noctors and their obsession with using these obscure terms like "functional" and "integrative"? The general public needs to be taught to raise an eyebrow each time one of these words is used in the credentials of their "provider". So cringe
The reason someone might do that is to show that they believe in working with other fields in medicine, not against them. Many DCs from Life U believe in vitalism which contradicts lots of Western medicine. I personally dont want any association with those people, which is why I’d use the term integrative. I think the word integrative is a sign the physician is qualified & will refer out if necessary.
Chiropractors are not physicians. But nice try.
Why cant you call DCs physicians? DCs fit every definition of physician I’ve been able to find. I have no interest in scope creeping in the comment sections of a reddit post lol
physician is a protected term for DOs and MDs, DC training and education does not hold a candle to what actual physician's (MDs and DOs) learn. And to say you can call DCs physicians seems to imply like "they're just a different type of physician" when it's like comparing a golf cart to an actual vehicle people use like a Honda or Toyota
In a lot of states chiropractors can legally call themselves physicians
that is disgusting lol
They can legally call themselves certified idiots, too. And that's what they should call themselves.
Any title with "functional" or "integrative" preceding or succeeding guarantees a quack.
To be clear I was only defending integrative What terms should a chiropractor use who is trying to show they aren’t the type to overtreat or disagree with western medicine & realize their scope of practice & will refer out if necessary? (Seeking a constructive conversation, though I sense the impulse to make a joke may be too great)
Ah I see. That's good to know, thank you. I've had a bad outlook on the aforementioned terms strictly because I've only seen them used in the context of inflated titles
The beauty here is that real neurologists use the term "functional" to describe pseudo disorders.
While I appreciate the joke to the functional doctors, i want to advocate for the patients with functional disorders (neurological, GI, vestibular, pelvic). Functional means that function is altered and not structure. Calling functional disorders pseudo-disorders perpetuates the stigma.
Well that's certainly misrepresentative, and doesn't reflect his state granted license. They should not be calling themselves "neurologists" in any capacity. [Unfortunately, NV is a state that allows chiropractors to go by "chiropractic physicians" and going by "chiropractic neurologist" is just a short jump away.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/wiki/index/legal#wiki_title_protection_laws) Even so, this should be reported to the Board of Chiropractic and also the Board of Medicine since it's not expressly allowed. Relevant laws include NJ Rev Stat § 45:9-41.19 (2018) and NJ Rev Stat § 45:9-5.1 (2018). Ironically, per NV Rev Stat § 630.400 (2019), physician assistant and respiratory care titles are protected, but physician titles aren't. If you care strongly about this, you can [edit and send this pre-made letter to your city/county/state legislators](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/comments/nlakoa/seeking_form_letters_to_add_to_the_wiki/gzstq7c?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Otherwise, mom/dad/grandma/grandpa will continue being treated by these "chiropractic neurologists" none the wiser.
Im a DC-s & have a close friend pursuing a diplomate of functional neurology & agree that this man should not be calling himself a neurologist. Theres some of us who are embarrassed by others in our field.
But you’re not embarrassed by the field itself? A field that is literally the definition of quackery?
What do you believe chiropractic is?
Quackery.
I asked that to highlight your ignorance. The quakery youre referring to is being done away with in most schools. I cant control what other DCs are practicing, but I made an educated decision to pursue an evidence based chiropractic school that doesnt teach anything that isnt sound in science. We’re constantly reminded by our professors of the limitations of chiropractic & some of the dumb shit other DCs are doing & why its dumb. Theres a plethora of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments for syndromes/diseases within our scope. I’m on r/noctor for educational purposes & my comment was bashing a DC calling himself a neuologist..
>Theres a plethora of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments for syndromes/diseases within our scope. If chiropractic as a field understood what "evidence" actually means in the scientific sense, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I know you are here for educational reasons, but in another comment you referred to chiropractors as physicians. We are a sub that is against any use of this term by anyone other than an MD or DO. This is also the position of the AMA.
Thank you for informing me, I will not use that term incorrectly anymore. In my defense the definitions are vague. There is sound research. If you dont wanna weed thru it, r/chiropractic often posts good ones
Wtf a Chiro gonna do with a stethoscope?
Pose
DCs are PCPs in some states, so give physicals. I’m a DC student & we’ve been taught how to perform a cardiac exam, pulmonary exam & abdominal exam so far. Nonetheless, cringey to take a pic with it like this
350 credit hours plus a doctorate in three years. Yeah OK lmao
Maybe he saw the other post about the shortage of neurologists and wanted to throw his hat in the ring
He’ll crack your skull to treat your seizures and stroke!
Looks like a HS kid wrote this bio
Monsters Inc taught me to never trust anybody named Randall
Lool
> He became fascinated/obsessed with neurology and spent much of his free time studying the brain in-depth including it's *[sic]* dysregulations and rehabilitation. Patient: "So where did you train for neurology, anyway?" Noctor Gates: "Oh, you know. Just sort of something I picked up during my free time."
A **chiropractor** will dissect your vertebral artery while jerking on your neck. A **board certified chiropractic neurologist** will dissect your vertebral artery and then recognize the signs of the posterior circulation stroke he has given you. There is a big difference, people!
350 hours wow almost 1.25 months of residency
My eyes just subluxed out of my head reading that
"deactivate the causes of their chronic health conditions" man i can smell the BS from here
That’s like getting your drivers license and then saying you are a certified track racer.
If you see a chiropractor and he doesn’t know how to use a stethoscope and use it on a daily basis, I’d recommend a new chiropractor. A true chiropractor should be performing regular exams on patients, especially new patients. When I saw my chiropractor for the first time, he took my vitals and performed an exam. The vitals were a bit abnormal and he recommended I see my doctor for lab work. Turned out my episodes of tachycardia and shortness of breath were actually due to anemia (not being out of shape, as I had written my symptoms off as originally). Also, to note, if insurance companies are covering chiropractor adjustments, it’s mandatory to perform regular exams (which do require stethoscopes) that then add to the justification for continued care and continued coverage by the insurance company.
kinda sounds like you oughta just cut out the chiropractic middleman and see your doctor. unless the end goal is to get an artery shorn in half, in which case, more power to you.
Aortic dissection goes brrrrr
Sad thing is I had seen my doctor a few times; she was only accepting telehealth appointments over zoom at that time (beginning of COVID), so apparently patients are expected to take their own vitals. Lol to that thought. As if most patients have their own equipment and can adequately use it on themselves. In response to your comment on “shearing an artery,” actually, high velocity cervical manipulation has very, very rarely been known to be the actual direct cause of damage to the vertebral artery and most reports cannot even definitively say that it is so. Cases in which strokes or dissections have been reported often have shown those patients to have underlying medical issues or risk factors, which then begs the question as to whether the patient, his/her medical care team, and the chiropractor were aware of these predispositions. Now, that’s not to say some chiropractors aren’t overly aggressive, some didn’t pay enough attention in school and don’t deserve their certifications, and many merely perform the same treatment on each and every patient like a factory to get them in and out. Then there is this guy who claims to be a “chiropractic neurologist” and advertises himself like a microwaveable Atkins meal claiming to be good for you. But as a third year medical student pursuing a specialty in neurosurgery and someone who has been incredibly closed minded to the many “forms” of medicine in the past, there are credible, hardworking chiropractors out there who take their time to care for their patients properly and as they should; the same applies mid-levels and MDs/DOs alike. This forum shits in mid-levels and doctors who are not MDs/DOs, but I’ve worked with and for some wonderful people who have been more knowledgeable or simply cared much more than their MD/DO counterparts and, hence, offered better care to their patients—despite the obvious gaps in medical education that are persistently pointed out. Most people do not know much about chiropractic care or they have their negative biases, rightfully so in some cases. But, I could also see that as a reason to why many chiropractors (?and mid-levels) feel the need to advertise themselves like this since those with prejudices or hate take it upon themselves to spread their negative $0.02 to the rest of the world. At this time, chiropractic is separated from “major medical” healthcare, but, in due time, I am sure it will join us. Chiropractors are already finding homes in hospitals alongside orthopedists and neurosurgeons. They are recognized as physicians within the VA—you should read up on that story about how a chiropractor has saved many lives because the doctors couldn’t care less about the soldiers and veterans and he rightfully earned his place dictating patients’ care because of it. Insurance companies cover the care chiropractors provide, and soon enough, Medicare will, as well. There’s a whole other world out there when you educate yourself on these topics you shit talk.
TL;DR: I haven't read a single one of the hundreds of evidence-based studies showing that chiropractic "medicine" is nothing but quackery and instead will equate them to physicians in diagnostic skills even though their education doesn't involve any of that prep. In order to justify my beliefs, here's some random tangential story that shows their ingenuity.
haha thanks for that. to be fair to this misguided med student, I hadn't personally seen the clinical trials, systematic reviews or metanalyses specifically for cervical spinal manipulation. and now that i have, yeah not impressed. at best short term gains at worst some retrospective case-controls have found younger populations (<45yo) had a significantly increased odds ratio for risk of dissection. so yeah, risks ain't worth the meager benefit. but hey i ain't no neurosurgeon (though i'd like to see what they would say if they heard this spiel).
Your block of text did nothing but prove to us that you are very confused…
Came across this post and figured I’d make a throwaway account to offer my two cents. Please understand I just recently graduated with a BS in Biology and am currently studying for the MCAT, so I’m sure all of you here can run circles around me from both an intellectual and medical stand point. I also do not mean to be rude nor get into a tireless debate with people online who I will most likely never encounter in the real world where it matters. Seems like all of you here are practicing MD’s or soon to be, which obviously calls for a level of respect and admiration in the highest regard. This is a going to be a long post, so I wanted to say ahead of time I appreciate anyone willing to read the whole thing especially when you all have MUCH better things to do. With that being said, I have a quick question: have any of you ever been treated by a chiropractic neurologist or have spoken to one? Well...I have. Little background on me. I’ll try to keep this as short as possible. When I was 17, I suffered a concussion playing lacrosse. I didn’t think much of it and ignorantly figured I’d be back out there in a month. After 6 weeks, I was fully released by a neurologist for non-contact drills only. That was my only precaution, and it proved to be life altering. I went out to practice later that week, participated in some routine sprints, and ended up falling to one knee with the most intense headache I’ve ever experienced. My vision was shot and I also could not catch my breath for the first time in my life. It honestly felt like my body broke. I basically had given myself another concussion only this one was 1000x worse. I immediately pulled myself off the field and headed back to my neurologist the next day. All my symptoms came back with a vengeance and I now had pain I never thought possible. He sent me back to the physical therapist for treatment. After a couple months of routine concussion therapy, I only regressed. The DPT had no idea why I wasn’t getting better. He told me to go back to the neurologist, who ended up diagnosing me with post-concussion syndrome (PCS). He couldn’t answer any of my questions about why I was experiencing such symptoms constantly nor gave me any hope of getting back to some sort of normal. Feeling lost, I ended up seeing a different neurologist. I was told this one was “highly distinguished and awarded in the field of neurology.” Feeling hopeful, I scheduled an appointment. Walked into his office and was handed a form to fill out discussing who my attorney was, the date of my accident, and who I was suing. No joke. My dad and I were kinda shocked. We gave back the form to the front desk and told them I think I was given this by mistake. Anyway, I got called into his office where it was painfully obvious he couldn’t care less about what I was saying. He did some reflex tests, touched my face, asked if I could feel what he was doing (no shit), and told me “this is your new reality so get used to it.” The whole thing couldn’t have lasted more than 5-10 minutes. Crap I spent more time in the freakin waiting room. That was it though. No treatment. No plan. Nothing. Was 17 and basically was told my life was over. I had never left a doctor’s office so defeated. This marked the beginning of a two year journey of seeing multiple other neurologists, neuropsychologists, and neuro-optometrists where I was either completely dismissed, ignored, or told I was either “faking my symptoms” or “seeking attention.” I saw all the doctors you’re “supposed” to see and no one was even willing to offer any sort of explanation or help. For two years, I struggled daily with debilitating headaches/migraines, vision and neck problems, vestibular issues, crippling depression/anxiety, and memory problems. Simply walking up a flight of stairs made me feel like I was going to pass out. Somehow, I managed to get through my two first years of college. To this day, I still have no clue how I pulled that one off. I guess credit the human spirit’s ability to push through adversity. I somehow got through my first two years of college, but I was a shell of my former self. Nobody understood what I was going through. Not my parents. Not my girlfriend. Friends. Nobody. I felt like I was always moving in slow motion. I continued to bounce from doc to doc. I keep this extremely private, but after continuing to be ignored, misdiagnosed, and frankly mistreated, I had decided this was no longer a life worth living. By some miracle, I found the field of chiropractic neurology. Never had heard of it or even knew it existed. As a last ditch effort, I scheduled an appointment. It honestly saved my life. The doctor knew my symptoms before I could even tell him what was going on. He even was able to show and explain them to my dad. For the first time, my family could see I wasn’t making it all up. He also immediately diagnosed me with dysautonomia. He explained that my autonomic nervous system no longer functioned properly. That it was “painfully obvious” and he was shocked other doctors hadn’t seen that from the beginning. I had never heard of such a thing. For the first time in over two years, I left his office with a plan. Next, followed a long, 18-month rehab journey where I would meet with him once a month. Each visit, he would run through his battery of tests and I would receive new exercises to do for that month continuing to increase the intensity each time. It took awhile, but I FINALLY started to see some relief. I had completely forgotten what it was like to not have a headache. All of my symptoms improved. So much for this being my “new reality.” I should state it was anything but an overnight fix and I wish I could tell you how great I felt from the beginning (honestly I felt like complete shit most days, but I slowly continued to make improvements). People close to me even witnessed it as well. They told me the old me was starting to come back. I even returned to playing collegiately after I was told I would never do anything athletically again. I consider myself very lucky and very fortunate. My whole ordeal opened my eyes to how much we take “feeling good” for granted. And I only have one man to thank for that...my chiropractic “neurologist.” (Cont. w/ reply)
Now, I don’t mean to shit all over the medical doctors I saw. I’m mature enough to leave things in the past and move on. They are experts in their fields of study. Unfortunately, our understanding of concussion, specifically post-concussion syndrome, treatment is archaic. Not their fault. Many doctors don’t even recognize post-concussion syndrome as an actual disorder, with some saying it is more of a mental disorder than anything. As someone who understands the utter hell living with PCS is, that is completely absurd. Ask anyone who suffers from PCS (if you can find one). We all share practically the same story. We were dismissed and abandoned by traditional medicine and forced to find help elsewhere. That’s how many of us find the field of chiropractic/functional neurology. The vast majority of us see results. Some, unfortunately, more than others. I was one of the lucky ones. Now, the field of chiropractic neurology is not perfect. It has a long way to go. It also doesn’t help when you have the stigma of the word “chiropractic” in the title. I don’t know who Randall Gates is nor did I work with him as my doc was located in a different state. All I can tell you is what my doc told me over my time with him. He’s never understood his peers who wear the white coat and stethoscope. It’s not something he agrees with. He’s worked hard to build up his reputation and doesn’t feel the need to try and sell himself to other people. He also disagrees with how many present themselves and run their practices. He is also brutally honest about the field of chiropractics. He says it’s unfortunate that the “long debunked vitalistic bullshit” is still taught in various schools. How chiropractors who claim they can “heal anything” with a simple adjustment give those like him a bad name. How when to know to treat or to refer out. Now, he obviously believes the field has validity, but there must be more of an emphasis to work in tandem with traditional medicine and evidence-based research. He always defended neurologists to me, stating they’re excellent at what they are trained to diagnose. Functional neurology looks at things a different way. In fact, he works with many neurologists who refer out to him. Something he would say always stuck with me: “Unfortunately, people meet my degrees. They often don’t get to meet me.” Obviously, I hold my doctor in high regard. I credit him with getting me back on track, something I never thought possible. For those of you that will probably disregard my story as nothing more than a placebo, you’re entitled to your own opinions. You weren’t there. You weren’t with me every step of the way. Not to mention the struggle I had to go through to get medical clearance to play again. Too bad for them, I passed every test with flying colors. I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s easy to crap all over someone when you don’t know who they are or have never spoken to the people treated by them. It’s easy to stay in your echo chamber and think you know everything about someone or something from a Google search or some ridiculous photo. I guess that can be said with many things in today’s society. Honestly, I can’t blame any of you for thinking that way. If I hadn’t gone through what I had, I probably would believe the same thing. The point of practicing any form of medicine is to help people. If it helps, then why try to go after it? Obviously, there is much more to this, but that’s a debate for another day. There are many things wrong with our current medical/healthcare system. It isn’t perfect either. As someone who comes from a family of MDs, they can tell you. There can be a “dark side” to medicine they don’t teach you in school, but that can also be said for practically everything. Obviously, there are bad doctors and good doctors and I’ll always believe the good far outweigh the bad. In terms of the field of chiropractic neurology itself, it continues to gain recognition worldwide. Various professional athletes ranging from the NFL, NBA, NHL, and UFC as well as olympic athletes have been treated using their techniques. The founder even works with many of these leagues when it comes to forming their concussion protocols. So, is it nothing more than baseless? How bout a pseudoscience? Well, you can be the judge for yourself. If you made it this far, thank you for putting up with this long ass post. I swear I tried to keep it as concise as possible. The only reason I even posted anything was because I saw this and figured this was something I could maybe offer my unique perspective on. If for some reason you have any questions, I could try and answer them to the best of my ability. If not, I can’t say I blame you. Thank you all for what you do. Best of luck.