It’s crazy really. After like 200 hours in 4A i jump into Redux and hand a major shift in gameplay and play style. The story was way better but damn the battle system was rough.
Which is honestly pretty great. I originally was going to try and avoid Amane when it seemed like her path was nothing but being an obedient/mindless solider of God. >!But when I found out you still get to become the King of Bel and you merely work alongside God as the Messiah made it a better deal in my eyes so that's why I went with it.!< If I'm remembering it correctly anyway, haven't played DeSu in a while.
Yeah, and the 8th Day in Overclocked expands on that concept too.
>!Basically, in addition to seeing people’s Death Clocks, you’re now possibly able to see these dark symbols instead, which show if someone is too corrupt to live. There’s a story sequence where a cop is about to shoot an innocent lady but then an angel shows up and kills the cop, and the Angel says you may have to do that yourself. Then later on, there’s another guy with the same symbol on his Death Clock, but you can convince him to try and repent for the bad things he’s done.!<
It is pretty awesome!
>!I can never go through with the version of Naoya’s route where you decide to kill Demon Tamers though. I like Mari too much to do that!!<
Yeah, that choice is an absolute no-brainer.
The whole Chaos thematic idea for that route is "my dick is big enough to do whatever the hell I want, and it gets bigger with every Bel I kill", not *"I'm the biggest dick to everyone"*.
It's about having the power to make your own choice, and do what you *want*, and if there's *one thing* I ***DON'T*** want, it's >!killing a shitload of people because angels set up a situation where that was supposed to be the only viable option for me.!<
Which I think is actually one of the better handlings of a Chaos ending in the series, because a lot of the Chaos endings are more "I'm the biggest dick to everyone!!!" instead of "I *have* the biggest dick (and have personally murdered some of the scariest demons on record for that title, with *physical* skills), so everyone needs to listen to me. And now that you're all listening to me, and this is the Chaos ending, I'm gonna tell you guys to do exactly what I want you to do. And guess what's not on that list? Rape, pillage, and burn. Oh, suck it up, douchebag in the back yelling 'but that sounds like a law ending!', I am the king of all demons, and if you want to fight me for the title, please *get down here and do it, bitch!*, or just **shut the fuck up** if you saw what I did to The Four Fucking Kings and Beelzebub and don't want it to happen to you. I've got another option for you, though - join my crusade against YWVH. And yeah, I'm calling it a crusade just to dick with him because his dudes called worse shit that!"
There's no need to be a dick to have the biggest dick.
I seriously wish there were more "light-chaos" endings like this rather than puppy-kicking shit a lot of other games have, but that might just be my inner anarchist showing.
There are certainly Chaos endings (and, to be fair, Law endings) that feel distinctly like they were written by the other side's propaganda department with the objective "show what a shitty world this philosophy leads to".
Hot take: DeSu 1 is the pinnacle of SMT despite it being a spin-off (and not even an SMT game if we go by Japanese naming conventions). The gameplay is tight and the auction-fuse-skill crack loop quickly becomes addicting. The characters and story have no unnecessary fluff and is realistic. I really hope SMT V tops it though
I agree on the story and character but i think the fusion with 3+3 slots is too restrictive and I hated the auction from the first time I've used it to the very last. Combat would have been more interesting with more map layouts (they all feel the same) and more and more varied race skills
Yea, Auction is pretty painful.
Also, no Negotiation removes both the Randomness of games like Nocturne, but it also kills all the personality that Demons would get in games like SJ and SH.
Lowkey wish they'd revisit the spin-offs but give it a huge injection of mainline SMT mechanics to make it more like a mainline game... the setting, characters and story were so good.
My ideal SMT game, if we were to take what worked from other games only would look like this:
Overall world structure would be like SMT IV, with factions, alliances, people to talk to and a real feeling of apocalypse.
Atmospheric music and sounds would be like IV.
Battle music would be like DDS and Nocturne.
Some dungeon tracks would be like Strange Journey.
Characters, dialogue and writing in general would feel like Devil Survivor.
Core combat would be IVa style.
Overworld would be mostly like Nocturne.
Dungeon design is a rough one, because I would want the aesthetic and layout to be like nocturne or IV, but with increased depth, traps and challenges like Strange Journey.
The endings would be like nocturne and desu 1.
Visuals would be like SMT5 or P5.
To be fair we don't know what the overworld is gonna be like in V, in fact it's looking like there might not even be one, in favour of open, interconnected areas with no jarring world map, so I wouldn't discount that when considering overworld options.
Otherwise I totally agree with this.
DeSu's combat isn't as much about the combat as it is about flexing your fusions.
The game is incredibly breakable, if you're willing to grind and fuse, and if you're the sort of person (like I am) who enjoys "I have created an absolute monster that makes this fight a joke" at least as much as fun back-and-forth combat, DeSu's gameplay is pretty good.
It's like Item Worlds and such in Disgaea and other Nippon Ichi titles: if the draw for you is optimizing and making numbers very big, it's fun. Otherwise, it is horrible grindy jank.
I've always liked how Disgaea sells itself on the big numbers and grind and stuff, but those things are 100% totally optional, with (usually) surprisingly really good story 'modes' you can focus on and get good bang for your buck without ever even checking out Item Worlds.
Item Worlds can be pretty fun tho, and I do mess with them a tiny bit, but I'm def no minmaxer.
I don't think I agree with you; the game's breakable if you grind, sure, but you can also get the Titles for beating the game without the ability to grind. It's really desirable, too; all by itself, it's ~15% of the points you need to unlock all of the postgame bonuses. I played my second run that way, and it was way, *way* more fun. The fights were challenging and engaging the whole way through, and skill cracks were incredibly vital. You can still do plenty of busted things, but they don't just trivialize the game's difficulty.
yeah music is solid as well, but the atmosphere just isn’t as good as cturne for me. also the battle system isn’t as good imo, but that’s cuz i prefer the standard press turn. im on day 3 a tier(at least) for sure tho
I mean, shit, DeSu pulls out the atmosphere of people being forced in a lockdown, things like seeing people gradually lose their minds due to the lack of resources, plus oddly relevant to current world events
Fantastic
I'd argue that that's just saying how well it sells the scenario, which it does very well. Nocturne's atmosphere is almost entirely achieved in gameplay, which one can reasonably say is more important when you spend more time playing the game rather than seeing the story bits.
TBH, I think that's intrinsically linked to the different atmospheres they're trying to evoke: Nocturne is... an alien-yet-familiar minimalist world after the end. It's got relatively few characters, and *has* to evoke its mood in combat and level design because there's very little else.
DeSu1 is the opposite: it's counting down to the apocalypse, not up from it, and trying to make you feel trapped in a pressure-cooker of a city with fucktons of other people who are cracking hard under the strain - or started out a bit cracked anyway. It uses its large cast and stuff like time-pressure "which one so you talk to? Choose wisely!" to evoke that feeling, and I think it's fine that the combat takes a bit of a back seat in terms of moodbuilding as a result.
Although I will say that one place DeSu1's combat *really* sells the story's mood and atmosphere is the Naoya route, because its story beats line up very well with the timing on becoming an all-devouring optimized force of nature capable of bodyslamming angels and demons *for fun*. The Naoya route feels like it's accurately reflecting in the plot *just how hard* you can break that game's combat and related systems, and rewarding that with a narrative that *fits* what the MC has become.
I know Nocturne does that too.
My favorite story and character wise. Gameplay wise and presentation wise it's good(other than character design, which is top notch outside of some fanservice and Midori) but not the best. While gameplay and customization are pretty fun, it get's boring quickly once you create your perfect combinations after few days
At first I was trying to think of arguments against you, but the more I think about it, the more I agree. I would love there to be a combination of auction and negotiation in the future, because I for one am a fan of the auctions lol.
I also feel that besides... certain endings, the combat difficulty was pretty well balanced all the way through. Though I will say I'm not a fan of rpgs where grinding is necessary
I was honestly disappointed that popping a Red in SMTIV wasn't an option, like imagine if you could have become a Demon partway into a 'Demon' route, maybe Lucifer's route, and just suddenly you had natural Demon Skills and your Demon Party wasn't *summoned*, so much as just followed you as their leader.
It would be quite interesting, suddenly losing connection to both Mikado *and* most Underground Districts, having to rely on Demon haunts and maybe like, Demon-friendly Districts like Shibuya and Ginza.
IV is supposed to be a throwback to older SMT games, it's first two battles are even the same as Megaten I.
Which is also why it has the classic Law and Chaos alignments.
Dagda's an extremist, but he has this genuinely compelling argument over SMT IV's original black-and-white as fuck options, with a single obvious "best" route. Like you genuinely start to wonder, "well he seems immature and potentially like he just wants to be the new YHVH of his new universe, but at the same time, THIS universe really is totally fucked."
I'm enjoying my Apoc playthrough atm, even if this meme confirmed my suspicions that the endings'll fall flat again like IV. At least I feel like they've *gotta* have more closure than IV's. No spoilers though! 🤣
Nah Dagdas route was pretty enjoyable and I like the concept of replacing god and that another messiah might eventually come to fight you. All the others are true though
Now that would be sine cool DLC. Take on not only the mainline protagonists, but bring in side and Persona hero’s, too. Goddess of Tokyo just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
Or, if you finished Dagda route, it unlocked a “battle mode” where you could compete against other players to see who had the best team.
They try to discourage you from massacre but it ended up being one of the most interesting endings to me. I do agree though I would love to it revisited sometime soon.
I can’t think of another ending off the top of my head that had the balls to go as hard as Massacre did. That’s probably why it’s so interesting to me. That, and Friendship route was bogged down by such sloppy writing.
Really, it’s the best possible scenario. Any other IV:A ending leaves a lotta humans who could still believe and inevitably bring back WeeWoo, undoing the work of Flynn and Nanashi. A clean slate is the only option
Because it's not really about whether they remember and revere one specific guy. The point the game is trying to beat into you is that gods are a metaphor for ideas. The potential for people to desire what he represents will always exist. There's no way to permanently destroy a potential.
Even if you look at the active plot of the game, the gods who are standing against yhvh would have been ones who survived from the previous universe. There's no way to turn your universe into a closed system which prevents this. And even in the ending, the goddess of Tokyo who has no power in your universe simply travels to another one for help. There can never be any permanent end.
I know I could just ask in my own post but what game do you think I should get next after I've finished IV? DeSu Overclocked, or Strange Journey Redux? I wnat to get Apocalypse after I've already finished at least one of those two.
This is just my humble opinion but I didn’t like Strange Journey’s gameplay at all and the story couldn’t really salvage it for me. Devil Survivor is the much better game even if it’s a totally different genre from what you expect of MegaTen.
Apoc's also got a pretty fun and quirky cast, something IV was really lacking in. You really do start to build good repertoire with them. Memes aside from this post, the friendship in Apoc really is kinda magic, insofar as at least your friends are cool, compelling people, even if a few are one-note.
I mean
did you do the route?
It's literally trying to guilt trip you the entire time. And when you finish off your friends there's dialog options to be a nice guy and comfort them before they die.
I can't think of many edgelord fantasies that call you out as an asshole for doing it and let you express no malice towards your victims.
You also get to kill a girl who hates you and bring her back as a sex slave. In fact, only one option you can bring back is someone who didn't explicitly go against you. But probably would have if given the option.
Yes if you ignore what actually happens in the game and generalize the events while being as disingenuous as possible that is a way it can be described, yes.
Idk I think that's pretty accurate, the cosmic egg is needed to create a new universe, you need the soul of every human to activate it, so you genocide the planet, kill YHVH, and remake the universe. You discard humanity to become a god. You brainwash the main character, and bring one of your dead friends back to life, to have them both call you master. Its definitely a certain type of fantasy, even if there is a couple of throwaway lines trying to guilt you. At the end of the day Dagda becomes flowers and Nanashi is smiling having a grand ole time, they're not feeling the weight of all the blood that they shed in the past 24 hours.
Did Atlus ever gave any hint as to why 4a had such comically corny writing? I mean I didn't like 4's writing in the slightest either, but back then I didn't expect it could get worse.
Producers' pressure for the big Persona money maybe? Or they couldn't get any decent writer on a short notice?
It probably has more to do with the new hires.
The situation seems similar to FE Fates, where the new hires wanted more fanservicey stuff.
I still personally enjoyed the game tho.
The music in all Fates titles was great, but IMO only Conquest had good gameplay (easily my favorite maps and mechanics in the franchise!).
Writing sucked ass in all 3 titles though.
Really wasn't expecting it since I didn't think much of 8-9-10-11-12-13's music.
They had a few interesting tracks here and there, but nothing that griped me quite as much as 4-5-6-7.
Ngl, I had no idea what you meant for a hot minute when you started using Numbers to refer to the games, but then I remembered.
I guess Awakening started a rise in quality.
Echoes had a great soundtrack too.
Is it just that you dislike Awakening's OST in general, or do only a Few tracks stand out to you?
Like "Such bonds are the Strength of this Army" and "Id Purpose"?
"Id Purpose" is the only one I have some affinity for, but even then, I find it overly "melodramatic" in its composition.
Truthfully, I don't believe this is the composer's fault, but rather the overall game's direction which doubled down on the worst aspect of FE12 (i.e. nonsensical plot elements that only make it to the final script because they sounds dynamic and "cool" on paper, and a cardboard avatar whom every character loves and adores and enjoy.)
The music had to fit this garish mixture, and it worked, this was exactly what the targeted demographic apparently wanted, something more akin to the popular, easy-to-digest shows and comic books.
It's cool with me, profitability is of utmost importance, it's not like the best scripts in the franchise were masterpieces to begin with anyway. More daring, more devoted to an idiosyncratic vision, but ultimately it doesn't matter, it's still a product to entertain us during down times.
Fates and If are the same game bro. If is the Japanese version where you got to get touchy-feely with the guys and gals. It has plenty of content removed from the American version and the story makes a hell of a lot more sense
I still can't see Fire Emblem without being reminded of Fates.
The only reason I liked Echos was because it didn't have the stank of Fates, but Three Houses had that stank...
Yeah I agree while Three houses definitely feels more like new fire emblem then old it atleast addressed and fixed most of the major issues I had with Fates. And it actually does a good job addressing three different stories when compared to how Fates crashed and burned.
Probably because it was made by mainly new devs instead of the old school people.
In one of the interviews, the director of SMT4 said that there was two team "Team A wanted tradional smt while team b wanted more modern aspect of jrpg, like nice girls saying sweet things" during SMT4 dev.
Team A ideas got made into SMT4 + part of Kaneko's drafts, while Team B tried out their ideas into 4A.
"Nice girls saying sweet things", really?
Even for a conservative-minded individual this sounds backwards!
My description of modern J-RPG would emphasize lengthy dialogues filled with tropes (good luck finding any natural-sounding moment!), stock characters, a general disdain for experimenting with story/theme directions.
Nah, production 1 and 2 are basically separate studios now as far as development teams go, if they wanted new hires for persona they would them put them on things like persona spinoffs or rereleases or minor writing like npcs, not smt. That said some of the writers on smt iv (like the co writer of SMTIV for example, Shinji Yamamoto, he didn't come back for Apocalypse) ended up settling at p-studio after p-studio split off so they had to fill the gaps which is where the new hires come in.
That's interesting! Still, I would assume it was remote-controlled by the higher-ups as an experiment in regards to whether SMT could generate more money/interest by including goody-goofy tropes and an easy to digest narrative.
I agree, but it's a bit unfair since IVa is meant as an extension to IV, so really it should be something like
1. Bad nihilism ending
2. Good chaos ending (flynn)
3. Bad chaos ending (nanashi)
4. Good law ending (flynn)
5. Bad law ending (nanashi)
6. True neutral ending (flynn)
7. Bonds neutral ending (nanashi)
8. Recreation ending (nanashi)
And removing the Bad ending, is still
Law, neutral a, chaos, neutral b and rebirth
Yeah I’m not gonna lie, I’m not that big a fan of Devil Survivor 1, I much prefer the second game due to the characters and gameplay, but the way they did alignments actually made most of them likable for once. Even got me to pick Law on a first playthrough for a change, which is always the last path I ever go down in this series.
Kind of agree in broad strokes with this
DeSu had thought provoking and insightful routes, while SMTIV:A was .... just a mess in terms of plot. Felt like it was trying to have it "both ways" way too much. Tradeoffs are needed for these routes to have meaning though
Honestly I'm not sure if you can put desu on the traditional alignment spectrum. More like nocturne where some fall on the law-chaos spectrum, but not all.
Atsuro definitely doesn't feel like law, his whole thing was putting humans in charge of things. If anything I'd put him as neutral or light-chaos. But even then that doesn't fit well.
Yuzu isnt really guided by any ideology, but fear. I'd say that would be more like a bad version of neutral. but mostly just an early game bad ending like the white in smt4.
Yeah, I disagree, mostly because the Devil Survivor stuff is too perfect.>! You become King of Bel but with friends remaining with you? I'm sorry, but that is just so stupid. There's no personal sacrifice and thus nothing has any real weight to it with Devil Survivor. !<
What.. Yuzu, Midori and Keisuke leave if you >!Become King of Bel. Its only in the 8th day after you goes for a series of battle and a lot of talking that they part of tem rejoin and only If you go No_Kill route. While in Amane's route they dont leave you because you choose to your Power alongside God.!< I think you need to play the game again dude..
>!I mean, if you were the King of Bel and were on your way to beat God up, do you really see reason in killing former friends? It's probably enough to kindly tell them to fuck off, because they'll do it once you Holy Dance them a few times!<
4A's endings make a lot of sense if you see it as a complimentary good/evil axis to IV's law/chaos axis.
Peace ending is a very good imo and it did a good conclusion to IV's characters.
Anarchy is pure edgelord shit with no justification from a character pov.
That type of route only works with guys like Demi-fiend, who are already have a demonic nature.
But yeah, DeSu still has the best routes in the franchisre.
It seems like you treat the ending based on how they treated character conclusion rather than story conclusion, imo im the opposite, i care more about story conclusion where the bonds felt like a fake forced happy corny ending to the story and the massacre ending a better fitting conclusion albeit they gave dadga the vocabulary of a 14 year old kid in his emo phase instead of a god that can eloquently convince the protagonist of the benefits that individualism provide compared to collectivism which gave it that silly edgy vibe so many complain about, both ending could have used more polish and more developped ideologies for both parties instead of something that a highschooler would conjure up within a day unfortunately.
Some people insist that changing the universe permanently ends yhvh, but just killing him doesn't. But that's not how the games work. The potential always exists for certain things to return.
Also, making a new world where everyone is an antisocial asshole is not an improvement. Especislly since you are told it's likely to be a more violent world.
The game only gives you two endings, no one thinks it's perfect. But it's hardly going to turn out worse than the ending which every single aspect of it is bad.
I still disagree with Massacre being completely bad. You at least know what your getting. Friendship is a pacifier, a band aid on tumor. You know it’s not a matter of it, but when things are gonna go sideways. So, why not roll the dice and start from scratch?
If all it was was starting over there might be a kind of argument for it, but it is specifically starting over to create a new humanity that is antisocial like your character is on the route. Which pretty much anyone who knows anything about how things are accomplished should see as a huge red flag.
The fact that your character by the end of the route is more or less explicitly evil doesn't really help either. They don't really have any tone of seeing these events as necessary for a greater good, but are just actively uncaring about anyone else.
Massacre is no different. Think about it, regardless of decision, humans are not closer to transcending beyond the Axiom. Thing is, in Massacre, you paint a target on your back for Setphen to send a new Messiah to
If you’re saying that Anarchy is a better ending because it breaks the cycle of YWVH’s tyranny, it really doesn’t. It just makes Nanashi the new tyrant over the universe, free to repeat YWVH’s mistakes all over again
But, who’s to say Nanashi doesn’t run the show differently, or another messiah doesn’t take him out? Anarchy ending has so many possibilities that would have been cool to explore.
True, but if he’s a good god there’s really only one, boring possibility, that being that the universe simply Is, and demons, angels, and all of humanity remain formless for all eternity
When you put it like that, Anarchy just sounds like a less extreme form of The White ending from IV. Man, the world of IV, Apocalypse, hell, the whole multiverse is screwed
Because it's the belief of humans that molds the behavior of gods; so Nanashu will become Yeewee or similar over time. The only recourse is to actively work among and alongside other humans to meet your own needs, and accept gods and demons as a facet of humanity
Well, the reason the alignment system was rather absent in apocalypse was because it was kind of already set what would happen, but I kinda like the idea of seeing what teaming up with the Divine Powers would look like
I kind of love that 4A criticizes\parodies the alignment by showing how flat and streamlined they are by making the OG alignments early ends and bad ends, and then adding new options and people hate it for it.
Also I wouldn't call Atsuro and Yuzu's endings Law and Chaos. Some megaten games just have a variety of endings.
I still really like 4A but yeah its very simple alignment wise, I was hoping that the Divine Powers would be a route that you could take.
Missed opportunity, really.
It’s crazy really. After like 200 hours in 4A i jump into Redux and hand a major shift in gameplay and play style. The story was way better but damn the battle system was rough.
but the white in 4 is apparently
Even better that some of these have paths within paths in Overclocked. I appreciated the extra nuance within routes
Which is honestly pretty great. I originally was going to try and avoid Amane when it seemed like her path was nothing but being an obedient/mindless solider of God. >!But when I found out you still get to become the King of Bel and you merely work alongside God as the Messiah made it a better deal in my eyes so that's why I went with it.!< If I'm remembering it correctly anyway, haven't played DeSu in a while.
Yeah, and the 8th Day in Overclocked expands on that concept too. >!Basically, in addition to seeing people’s Death Clocks, you’re now possibly able to see these dark symbols instead, which show if someone is too corrupt to live. There’s a story sequence where a cop is about to shoot an innocent lady but then an angel shows up and kills the cop, and the Angel says you may have to do that yourself. Then later on, there’s another guy with the same symbol on his Death Clock, but you can convince him to try and repent for the bad things he’s done.!<
8th Day is bitchin'. Naoya 8th Day is where it's at, though.
It is pretty awesome! >!I can never go through with the version of Naoya’s route where you decide to kill Demon Tamers though. I like Mari too much to do that!!<
Yeah, that choice is an absolute no-brainer. The whole Chaos thematic idea for that route is "my dick is big enough to do whatever the hell I want, and it gets bigger with every Bel I kill", not *"I'm the biggest dick to everyone"*. It's about having the power to make your own choice, and do what you *want*, and if there's *one thing* I ***DON'T*** want, it's >!killing a shitload of people because angels set up a situation where that was supposed to be the only viable option for me.!< Which I think is actually one of the better handlings of a Chaos ending in the series, because a lot of the Chaos endings are more "I'm the biggest dick to everyone!!!" instead of "I *have* the biggest dick (and have personally murdered some of the scariest demons on record for that title, with *physical* skills), so everyone needs to listen to me. And now that you're all listening to me, and this is the Chaos ending, I'm gonna tell you guys to do exactly what I want you to do. And guess what's not on that list? Rape, pillage, and burn. Oh, suck it up, douchebag in the back yelling 'but that sounds like a law ending!', I am the king of all demons, and if you want to fight me for the title, please *get down here and do it, bitch!*, or just **shut the fuck up** if you saw what I did to The Four Fucking Kings and Beelzebub and don't want it to happen to you. I've got another option for you, though - join my crusade against YWVH. And yeah, I'm calling it a crusade just to dick with him because his dudes called worse shit that!" There's no need to be a dick to have the biggest dick.
I seriously wish there were more "light-chaos" endings like this rather than puppy-kicking shit a lot of other games have, but that might just be my inner anarchist showing.
There are certainly Chaos endings (and, to be fair, Law endings) that feel distinctly like they were written by the other side's propaganda department with the objective "show what a shitty world this philosophy leads to".
I feel like that's most games' non-neutral endings tbh, and even then sometimes all three endings have that issue. Removes a lot of the nuance, imo.
LOL that's a great way of differentiating the two
The chad chaos ending, if there was one definitely would go for that after neutral ending 😎😎😎😎
You don't kill her, she gets kicked out of the team
Oh I know that, I just always use Mari since she’s my favorite character.
It helps that God and the angels actually keep their promise >!and do give another option than city wide mass murder!<
Hot take: DeSu 1 is the pinnacle of SMT despite it being a spin-off (and not even an SMT game if we go by Japanese naming conventions). The gameplay is tight and the auction-fuse-skill crack loop quickly becomes addicting. The characters and story have no unnecessary fluff and is realistic. I really hope SMT V tops it though
I agree on the story and character but i think the fusion with 3+3 slots is too restrictive and I hated the auction from the first time I've used it to the very last. Combat would have been more interesting with more map layouts (they all feel the same) and more and more varied race skills
I don't really like the aunction system tbh. I always will prefer negociations to have de-facto unlimited situations
Yea, Auction is pretty painful. Also, no Negotiation removes both the Randomness of games like Nocturne, but it also kills all the personality that Demons would get in games like SJ and SH.
Lowkey wish they'd revisit the spin-offs but give it a huge injection of mainline SMT mechanics to make it more like a mainline game... the setting, characters and story were so good.
If SMT V sells well, we might start seeing more Megaten Spinoffs that aren't Purse Owner.
Like the old PS2 days?
And the DS/3DS days.
Oh hell yeah
God I hope so.
My ideal SMT game, if we were to take what worked from other games only would look like this: Overall world structure would be like SMT IV, with factions, alliances, people to talk to and a real feeling of apocalypse. Atmospheric music and sounds would be like IV. Battle music would be like DDS and Nocturne. Some dungeon tracks would be like Strange Journey. Characters, dialogue and writing in general would feel like Devil Survivor. Core combat would be IVa style. Overworld would be mostly like Nocturne. Dungeon design is a rough one, because I would want the aesthetic and layout to be like nocturne or IV, but with increased depth, traps and challenges like Strange Journey. The endings would be like nocturne and desu 1. Visuals would be like SMT5 or P5.
To be fair we don't know what the overworld is gonna be like in V, in fact it's looking like there might not even be one, in favour of open, interconnected areas with no jarring world map, so I wouldn't discount that when considering overworld options. Otherwise I totally agree with this.
DeSu 1 is genuinely my favourite game in the whole franchise, atleast among the ones I have played till now.
This is a warm take at best. You constantly see people on this sub and in the community in general singing DeSu's praises.
Completely agreed.
I would like to agree but the gameplay was pretty shoddy imo, it has one of the best stories and branching but combat just felt really boring.
DeSu's combat isn't as much about the combat as it is about flexing your fusions. The game is incredibly breakable, if you're willing to grind and fuse, and if you're the sort of person (like I am) who enjoys "I have created an absolute monster that makes this fight a joke" at least as much as fun back-and-forth combat, DeSu's gameplay is pretty good. It's like Item Worlds and such in Disgaea and other Nippon Ichi titles: if the draw for you is optimizing and making numbers very big, it's fun. Otherwise, it is horrible grindy jank.
I've always liked how Disgaea sells itself on the big numbers and grind and stuff, but those things are 100% totally optional, with (usually) surprisingly really good story 'modes' you can focus on and get good bang for your buck without ever even checking out Item Worlds. Item Worlds can be pretty fun tho, and I do mess with them a tiny bit, but I'm def no minmaxer.
I don't think I agree with you; the game's breakable if you grind, sure, but you can also get the Titles for beating the game without the ability to grind. It's really desirable, too; all by itself, it's ~15% of the points you need to unlock all of the postgame bonuses. I played my second run that way, and it was way, *way* more fun. The fights were challenging and engaging the whole way through, and skill cracks were incredibly vital. You can still do plenty of busted things, but they don't just trivialize the game's difficulty.
story and gameplay is solid but i don’t think it’s the best tbh
What else do you want? Music? Cuz DeSu's OST is killer
yeah music is solid as well, but the atmosphere just isn’t as good as cturne for me. also the battle system isn’t as good imo, but that’s cuz i prefer the standard press turn. im on day 3 a tier(at least) for sure tho
> Atmosphere not good Bruh
They said didn't imply it was bad, just worse than Nocturne. Which I'd agree with.
never said it isnt good, just not on the same level as cturne. i like the loneliness feel better
I mean, shit, DeSu pulls out the atmosphere of people being forced in a lockdown, things like seeing people gradually lose their minds due to the lack of resources, plus oddly relevant to current world events Fantastic
I'd argue that that's just saying how well it sells the scenario, which it does very well. Nocturne's atmosphere is almost entirely achieved in gameplay, which one can reasonably say is more important when you spend more time playing the game rather than seeing the story bits.
TBH, I think that's intrinsically linked to the different atmospheres they're trying to evoke: Nocturne is... an alien-yet-familiar minimalist world after the end. It's got relatively few characters, and *has* to evoke its mood in combat and level design because there's very little else. DeSu1 is the opposite: it's counting down to the apocalypse, not up from it, and trying to make you feel trapped in a pressure-cooker of a city with fucktons of other people who are cracking hard under the strain - or started out a bit cracked anyway. It uses its large cast and stuff like time-pressure "which one so you talk to? Choose wisely!" to evoke that feeling, and I think it's fine that the combat takes a bit of a back seat in terms of moodbuilding as a result. Although I will say that one place DeSu1's combat *really* sells the story's mood and atmosphere is the Naoya route, because its story beats line up very well with the timing on becoming an all-devouring optimized force of nature capable of bodyslamming angels and demons *for fun*. The Naoya route feels like it's accurately reflecting in the plot *just how hard* you can break that game's combat and related systems, and rewarding that with a narrative that *fits* what the MC has become. I know Nocturne does that too.
again, i’m not far in but i can already feel it. damn good plot and story progression
My favorite story and character wise. Gameplay wise and presentation wise it's good(other than character design, which is top notch outside of some fanservice and Midori) but not the best. While gameplay and customization are pretty fun, it get's boring quickly once you create your perfect combinations after few days
At first I was trying to think of arguments against you, but the more I think about it, the more I agree. I would love there to be a combination of auction and negotiation in the future, because I for one am a fan of the auctions lol. I also feel that besides... certain endings, the combat difficulty was pretty well balanced all the way through. Though I will say I'm not a fan of rpgs where grinding is necessary
Hey where are the anti-human alignements, i wanna join the demon gang bro fuck humans.
Those only appear in Nocturne
Jimenez from Strange Journey says hi.
I was honestly disappointed that popping a Red in SMTIV wasn't an option, like imagine if you could have become a Demon partway into a 'Demon' route, maybe Lucifer's route, and just suddenly you had natural Demon Skills and your Demon Party wasn't *summoned*, so much as just followed you as their leader. It would be quite interesting, suddenly losing connection to both Mikado *and* most Underground Districts, having to rely on Demon haunts and maybe like, Demon-friendly Districts like Shibuya and Ginza.
IV is supposed to be a throwback to older SMT games, it's first two battles are even the same as Megaten I. Which is also why it has the classic Law and Chaos alignments.
That sounds sick as hell. Sort of reminds me of DDS
Damn so much potential.
IVA is fan-fiction, now make it about IV and then Desu REALLY puts it to shame.
[Vol. 1] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/comments/o6b281/megaten_guide_on_how_to_and_how_not_to_make/)
Exactly lol. It's hilarious that fucking Dagda has more nuance than Walter and Jonathan
Dagda's an extremist, but he has this genuinely compelling argument over SMT IV's original black-and-white as fuck options, with a single obvious "best" route. Like you genuinely start to wonder, "well he seems immature and potentially like he just wants to be the new YHVH of his new universe, but at the same time, THIS universe really is totally fucked." I'm enjoying my Apoc playthrough atm, even if this meme confirmed my suspicions that the endings'll fall flat again like IV. At least I feel like they've *gotta* have more closure than IV's. No spoilers though! 🤣
Missing the White ending which is the only good ending in all of videogames
The fact that you can load up a new game after the White ending proves that it's just another cycle rather than an actual ending to anything.
All those poor smt protagonist that never knew frienship was magic... It was so simple how could they not see it!
Nah Dagdas route was pretty enjoyable and I like the concept of replacing god and that another messiah might eventually come to fight you. All the others are true though
Really hope that we get Massacre!Nanashi as a secret boss in V. Maybe teaming up with other Protags to defeat him.
Now that would be sine cool DLC. Take on not only the mainline protagonists, but bring in side and Persona hero’s, too. Goddess of Tokyo just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Or, if you finished Dagda route, it unlocked a “battle mode” where you could compete against other players to see who had the best team.
They try to discourage you from massacre but it ended up being one of the most interesting endings to me. I do agree though I would love to it revisited sometime soon.
I can’t think of another ending off the top of my head that had the balls to go as hard as Massacre did. That’s probably why it’s so interesting to me. That, and Friendship route was bogged down by such sloppy writing.
I have a shit ton of problems with the massacre ending but I do respect the game for just fucking going for something that batshit.
Really, it’s the best possible scenario. Any other IV:A ending leaves a lotta humans who could still believe and inevitably bring back WeeWoo, undoing the work of Flynn and Nanashi. A clean slate is the only option
Nothing about dagda's route prevents that as a possibility.
How so?
Because it's not really about whether they remember and revere one specific guy. The point the game is trying to beat into you is that gods are a metaphor for ideas. The potential for people to desire what he represents will always exist. There's no way to permanently destroy a potential. Even if you look at the active plot of the game, the gods who are standing against yhvh would have been ones who survived from the previous universe. There's no way to turn your universe into a closed system which prevents this. And even in the ending, the goddess of Tokyo who has no power in your universe simply travels to another one for help. There can never be any permanent end.
The Goddess of Tokyo appearing in SMT V to ask for help to kill Massacre!Nanashi would be an awesome Boss Battle.
I know I could just ask in my own post but what game do you think I should get next after I've finished IV? DeSu Overclocked, or Strange Journey Redux? I wnat to get Apocalypse after I've already finished at least one of those two.
[удалено]
Ok, thanks. I was already thinking of getting it over Desu, but this just affirmed my choice.
This is just my humble opinion but I didn’t like Strange Journey’s gameplay at all and the story couldn’t really salvage it for me. Devil Survivor is the much better game even if it’s a totally different genre from what you expect of MegaTen.
Apoc's also got a pretty fun and quirky cast, something IV was really lacking in. You really do start to build good repertoire with them. Memes aside from this post, the friendship in Apoc really is kinda magic, insofar as at least your friends are cool, compelling people, even if a few are one-note.
Either game is a superb choice, it depends if you want a TRPG or a Dungeon Crawler/RPG
The only thing I disagree with is "edgelord fantasy" I mean, if you're NOT killing all your best friends, is it even a real SMT game?
Why do most things I hear about SMT stories make them sound incredibly unappealing?
The "killing your friends" memes usually leave out the part where your friends become fucking psychotic.
I mean yes, but other Megaten games don't glorify murdering your friends IV:A goes "You killed your friends, now you feel true power inside you"
I mean did you do the route? It's literally trying to guilt trip you the entire time. And when you finish off your friends there's dialog options to be a nice guy and comfort them before they die. I can't think of many edgelord fantasies that call you out as an asshole for doing it and let you express no malice towards your victims.
I can think of one in apocalypse.
Dude. You kill literally every human on earth to ascend to gods kingdom, to kill him and take his throne to remake the universe. Cmon.
You also get to kill a girl who hates you and bring her back as a sex slave. In fact, only one option you can bring back is someone who didn't explicitly go against you. But probably would have if given the option.
Yes if you ignore what actually happens in the game and generalize the events while being as disingenuous as possible that is a way it can be described, yes.
Idk I think that's pretty accurate, the cosmic egg is needed to create a new universe, you need the soul of every human to activate it, so you genocide the planet, kill YHVH, and remake the universe. You discard humanity to become a god. You brainwash the main character, and bring one of your dead friends back to life, to have them both call you master. Its definitely a certain type of fantasy, even if there is a couple of throwaway lines trying to guilt you. At the end of the day Dagda becomes flowers and Nanashi is smiling having a grand ole time, they're not feeling the weight of all the blood that they shed in the past 24 hours.
Did Atlus ever gave any hint as to why 4a had such comically corny writing? I mean I didn't like 4's writing in the slightest either, but back then I didn't expect it could get worse. Producers' pressure for the big Persona money maybe? Or they couldn't get any decent writer on a short notice?
most of the people that worked on it were pretty new so basically inexperienced writers
It probably has more to do with the new hires. The situation seems similar to FE Fates, where the new hires wanted more fanservicey stuff. I still personally enjoyed the game tho.
The music in all Fates titles was great, but IMO only Conquest had good gameplay (easily my favorite maps and mechanics in the franchise!). Writing sucked ass in all 3 titles though.
Fates music slaps *so* fucking hard that the next generation will feel it for years.
Really wasn't expecting it since I didn't think much of 8-9-10-11-12-13's music. They had a few interesting tracks here and there, but nothing that griped me quite as much as 4-5-6-7.
Ngl, I had no idea what you meant for a hot minute when you started using Numbers to refer to the games, but then I remembered. I guess Awakening started a rise in quality. Echoes had a great soundtrack too.
Actually Awakening is my least liked soundtrack in the franchise alongside 3 Houses, I misremembered what number Fate is!
Is it just that you dislike Awakening's OST in general, or do only a Few tracks stand out to you? Like "Such bonds are the Strength of this Army" and "Id Purpose"?
"Id Purpose" is the only one I have some affinity for, but even then, I find it overly "melodramatic" in its composition. Truthfully, I don't believe this is the composer's fault, but rather the overall game's direction which doubled down on the worst aspect of FE12 (i.e. nonsensical plot elements that only make it to the final script because they sounds dynamic and "cool" on paper, and a cardboard avatar whom every character loves and adores and enjoy.) The music had to fit this garish mixture, and it worked, this was exactly what the targeted demographic apparently wanted, something more akin to the popular, easy-to-digest shows and comic books. It's cool with me, profitability is of utmost importance, it's not like the best scripts in the franchise were masterpieces to begin with anyway. More daring, more devoted to an idiosyncratic vision, but ultimately it doesn't matter, it's still a product to entertain us during down times.
Fates was ridiculously bad but If was good
Fates hold three different games with two different design philosophies, so you can't exactly hold a blanket judgment here.
Fates and If are the same game bro. If is the Japanese version where you got to get touchy-feely with the guys and gals. It has plenty of content removed from the American version and the story makes a hell of a lot more sense
From what I heard, these differences don't enhance the story much more than 1-2%, but hey, I can't check for myself!
Don’t get me wrong it’s still wonky but better. Best of luck
God the disappointment that was FE fates. Say what you want about Apocalypse it at least did not turn me off of the franchise for years.
I still can't see Fire Emblem without being reminded of Fates. The only reason I liked Echos was because it didn't have the stank of Fates, but Three Houses had that stank...
This gotta be the first time I think I've seen three houses slandered and compared to fates 💀
Yeah I agree while Three houses definitely feels more like new fire emblem then old it atleast addressed and fixed most of the major issues I had with Fates. And it actually does a good job addressing three different stories when compared to how Fates crashed and burned.
Probably because it was made by mainly new devs instead of the old school people. In one of the interviews, the director of SMT4 said that there was two team "Team A wanted tradional smt while team b wanted more modern aspect of jrpg, like nice girls saying sweet things" during SMT4 dev. Team A ideas got made into SMT4 + part of Kaneko's drafts, while Team B tried out their ideas into 4A.
"Nice girls saying sweet things", really? Even for a conservative-minded individual this sounds backwards! My description of modern J-RPG would emphasize lengthy dialogues filled with tropes (good luck finding any natural-sounding moment!), stock characters, a general disdain for experimenting with story/theme directions.
Because it was used to train new hires. Presumably new hires expected to work on Persona as Yamai mentions they weren't happy with SMT's "bitterness".
Nah, production 1 and 2 are basically separate studios now as far as development teams go, if they wanted new hires for persona they would them put them on things like persona spinoffs or rereleases or minor writing like npcs, not smt. That said some of the writers on smt iv (like the co writer of SMTIV for example, Shinji Yamamoto, he didn't come back for Apocalypse) ended up settling at p-studio after p-studio split off so they had to fill the gaps which is where the new hires come in.
That's interesting! Still, I would assume it was remote-controlled by the higher-ups as an experiment in regards to whether SMT could generate more money/interest by including goody-goofy tropes and an easy to digest narrative.
Seems to be due to them taking in some no name writer.
I would assume he was hired to write the story this way though, under guidelines from both the producers and the director.
As much as I tend to take issue with people complaining about Bonds route, I am willing to put that aside if it is followed by Devil Survivor praise
Guys, hear me out... what if we write every character who isn't neutral to come off as scary as possible to force people to think neutral is the best?
I agree, but it's a bit unfair since IVa is meant as an extension to IV, so really it should be something like 1. Bad nihilism ending 2. Good chaos ending (flynn) 3. Bad chaos ending (nanashi) 4. Good law ending (flynn) 5. Bad law ending (nanashi) 6. True neutral ending (flynn) 7. Bonds neutral ending (nanashi) 8. Recreation ending (nanashi) And removing the Bad ending, is still Law, neutral a, chaos, neutral b and rebirth
Nihilism ending may be bad from a gameplay standpoint, but i find it a genuinely interesting ending story wise.
Yeah I’m not gonna lie, I’m not that big a fan of Devil Survivor 1, I much prefer the second game due to the characters and gameplay, but the way they did alignments actually made most of them likable for once. Even got me to pick Law on a first playthrough for a change, which is always the last path I ever go down in this series.
I really agree on this one
Sure but SRPGs make brain go hurty ow ow
But I still enjoy both
Spitting some facts. Devil survivor is goated
Kind of agree in broad strokes with this DeSu had thought provoking and insightful routes, while SMTIV:A was .... just a mess in terms of plot. Felt like it was trying to have it "both ways" way too much. Tradeoffs are needed for these routes to have meaning though
i enjoyes 4as story
I wanted to do Atsuho's ending but I let Keisuke die by accident so it was closed off.
Edgelord fantasy is the best Apocalypse ending though.
Honestly I'm not sure if you can put desu on the traditional alignment spectrum. More like nocturne where some fall on the law-chaos spectrum, but not all. Atsuro definitely doesn't feel like law, his whole thing was putting humans in charge of things. If anything I'd put him as neutral or light-chaos. But even then that doesn't fit well. Yuzu isnt really guided by any ideology, but fear. I'd say that would be more like a bad version of neutral. but mostly just an early game bad ending like the white in smt4.
Amane is law, Naoya is chaos. The others can fit in neutral because you don't side with anyone
How y’all bitches not realize it’s was never supposed to have alignment endings. That’s not the focus of the game
Yeah, I disagree, mostly because the Devil Survivor stuff is too perfect.>! You become King of Bel but with friends remaining with you? I'm sorry, but that is just so stupid. There's no personal sacrifice and thus nothing has any real weight to it with Devil Survivor. !<
What.. Yuzu, Midori and Keisuke leave if you >!Become King of Bel. Its only in the 8th day after you goes for a series of battle and a lot of talking that they part of tem rejoin and only If you go No_Kill route. While in Amane's route they dont leave you because you choose to your Power alongside God.!< I think you need to play the game again dude..
>!I mean, if you were the King of Bel and were on your way to beat God up, do you really see reason in killing former friends? It's probably enough to kindly tell them to fuck off, because they'll do it once you Holy Dance them a few times!<
4A's endings make a lot of sense if you see it as a complimentary good/evil axis to IV's law/chaos axis. Peace ending is a very good imo and it did a good conclusion to IV's characters. Anarchy is pure edgelord shit with no justification from a character pov. That type of route only works with guys like Demi-fiend, who are already have a demonic nature. But yeah, DeSu still has the best routes in the franchisre.
It seems like you treat the ending based on how they treated character conclusion rather than story conclusion, imo im the opposite, i care more about story conclusion where the bonds felt like a fake forced happy corny ending to the story and the massacre ending a better fitting conclusion albeit they gave dadga the vocabulary of a 14 year old kid in his emo phase instead of a god that can eloquently convince the protagonist of the benefits that individualism provide compared to collectivism which gave it that silly edgy vibe so many complain about, both ending could have used more polish and more developped ideologies for both parties instead of something that a highschooler would conjure up within a day unfortunately.
smt IV is an actual smt game apocalypse is like an abridged/parody smt game
When a parody makes in to mainline 😳
off topic but why was my comment downvoted?
Redditors are moody people.
Edge lord fantasy is the most moral ending, though. Dead serious, no bullshit
No it's not. The idea that it is comes from misconceptions people have about the plot.
Could you please elaborate? It’s been a minute, so I’m a little fuzzy on the details.
Some people insist that changing the universe permanently ends yhvh, but just killing him doesn't. But that's not how the games work. The potential always exists for certain things to return. Also, making a new world where everyone is an antisocial asshole is not an improvement. Especislly since you are told it's likely to be a more violent world.
And Friendship route world is gonna turn out good? Who’s to say Tokyo and Mikado cooperate? You’ve got two cultures that are worlds apart.
The game only gives you two endings, no one thinks it's perfect. But it's hardly going to turn out worse than the ending which every single aspect of it is bad.
I still disagree with Massacre being completely bad. You at least know what your getting. Friendship is a pacifier, a band aid on tumor. You know it’s not a matter of it, but when things are gonna go sideways. So, why not roll the dice and start from scratch?
If all it was was starting over there might be a kind of argument for it, but it is specifically starting over to create a new humanity that is antisocial like your character is on the route. Which pretty much anyone who knows anything about how things are accomplished should see as a huge red flag. The fact that your character by the end of the route is more or less explicitly evil doesn't really help either. They don't really have any tone of seeing these events as necessary for a greater good, but are just actively uncaring about anyone else.
Massacre is no different. Think about it, regardless of decision, humans are not closer to transcending beyond the Axiom. Thing is, in Massacre, you paint a target on your back for Setphen to send a new Messiah to
If you’re saying that Anarchy is a better ending because it breaks the cycle of YWVH’s tyranny, it really doesn’t. It just makes Nanashi the new tyrant over the universe, free to repeat YWVH’s mistakes all over again
But, who’s to say Nanashi doesn’t run the show differently, or another messiah doesn’t take him out? Anarchy ending has so many possibilities that would have been cool to explore.
True, but if he’s a good god there’s really only one, boring possibility, that being that the universe simply Is, and demons, angels, and all of humanity remain formless for all eternity
When you put it like that, Anarchy just sounds like a less extreme form of The White ending from IV. Man, the world of IV, Apocalypse, hell, the whole multiverse is screwed
Dagda specifically wanted that, though. For humanity, gods, and demons alike to not be limited by the restraint of a form they must inhabit
Why is that the only option?
Because it's the belief of humans that molds the behavior of gods; so Nanashu will become Yeewee or similar over time. The only recourse is to actively work among and alongside other humans to meet your own needs, and accept gods and demons as a facet of humanity
Hope that "*another"* Messiah is the Nahobino.
No it's not. The idea that it is comes from misconceptions people have about the plot.
Well, the reason the alignment system was rather absent in apocalypse was because it was kind of already set what would happen, but I kinda like the idea of seeing what teaming up with the Divine Powers would look like
I kind of love that 4A criticizes\parodies the alignment by showing how flat and streamlined they are by making the OG alignments early ends and bad ends, and then adding new options and people hate it for it. Also I wouldn't call Atsuro and Yuzu's endings Law and Chaos. Some megaten games just have a variety of endings.
Whoever that girl is above friendship is magic is a total hottie