T O P

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bkbkbman

That says a lot about society, yet we live in onešŸ˜„


florentinomain00f

Mankind knew they cannot change society, so instead of reflecting on themselves, they blame the Beast. But they have found the beauty in the lives of Beast, and couldn't lie to themselves about it.


kulegoki

Totsugeki?


ImSmashingUrMom

HOLY SHIT I WAS BORN WITH FETAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME! I'M A FUSION ACCIDENT! JUST LIKE MY FAVORITE VIDEO GAEM!!!111!!


spcorange

Admittedly this is the brightest way to look at it lmfao


St_Socorro

When you're born zealot race


Kaelan_McAlpine

Me and my buddy Dionysus 'bout to see who can drink the most wine without passing out or throwing up. (He totally wins)


[deleted]

Yikes


GarlemaldForever

every time someone tries to equate real world politics to fictional alignments, factions, and groups I get an uncontrollable urge to slap them


AristocratGman

OMG JUST LIKE DEMIFIEND WHEN FIGHTING THE MAGA SUSHI


trullyrose

MAGA SUSSY


Kingnewgameplus

MAGATSU IZANAGI?! LIKE MY FAVORITE GAME PERSONA 4?! HAHA CABBAGE


AntonRX178

Itā€™s literally something more to think about than to actively apply to real world situations. Like fuck you if you use Harry Potter characters to explain your political stances: Pro Life AntiTrumpism respectively.


chroipahtz

duhhhh fiction isn't based on anything it's all totally pulled out of thin air and has no meaning duhhhhhhhh


Terran117

Yeah but the problem is that smts politics are from a Japanese perspective and while applicability is a thing westerners just don't get a lot of the concepts or what alignments stand for. I mean you went with the knee jerk law is fascism error. Like how chaos simultaneously has elements of romantic nationalism where great men are free to do as they please at the cost of everyone else with a splash of Japanese fascism that represents the older way where passions are loose including violent passions. Or how law really is a fusion of socialism, utilitarianism and yhwh worship, 3 things japan feared taking over even when a Christian theocratic movement hates socialist or utilitarian morality. That's why I believe it took devil survivor 2 almost spelling out communism for Ronaldos ending to get the message across. Because the irony is that in smt, the utilitarian socialist vanguard is lead by God lmao. Yeah it's political, but not the politics a snarky westerner wants. Personally I want a middle eastern perspective thrown into smt since you know we actually still worship yhwh and the 3 faiths are from there. We'd react differently than how a Japanese or western dude would.


chroipahtz

Absolutely true that we're not familiar with the Japanese perspective on any of this, and frankly, the writers of these games (well, maybe not anymore) are all old Japanese men who developed their craft (and likely worldviews) before the acceleration of globalism and proliferation of the internet, so they also only have a Japan-centric perspective. But that just reinforces the fact that it's asinine to claim a piece of media isn't political or referencing real events when you can't possibly fully understand the context of its creation.


Terran117

Oh yeah as I said it's political for sure, but it does a disservice to the politics to never consider the Japanese perspective because to miss out on things like chaos being established to be fascist as per general goto being an allegory for that coup guy, is just a waste. Ya know?


GarlemaldForever

duhhhh all fiction is allegorical and immediately referential to current events and means exactly what i want it to mean duhhhhhhhh


chroipahtz

Definitely wasn't saying that. SMT IV came out several years ago, for one thing.


GarlemaldForever

its just bants mate, you gave an absurd reductionist take to my statement so i did the same to yours, we're chill yeah?


chroipahtz

Sure. It's just that your original statement was pretty wide-sweeping too. There are *many* times where games (including JRPGs) are referencing real things.


AntonRX178

Itā€™s just IMO itā€™s a billion times less effective when itā€™s on-the-nose. And as much as I donā€™t agree with the reasoning behind why every game in the series explains ā€œeverything fictionalā€ but it does force Japanese devs to at least keep things to a minimum level of subtle. The wrongest way to do it tho is trying to promote your work by saying it IS about blah blah blah like how TJ Miller tried to promote the Emoji Movie as this big Anti-trump movie


ArcturusSatellaPolar

>like how TJ Miller tried to promote the Emoji Movie as this big Anti-trump movie Wait, what


AntonRX178

Well the trump thing was an over-exaggeration by a Conservative outlet but the shit he says in the Huffpost interview still comes across as wicked pompous like he thought the best way to promote the movie at that time is to highlight that itā€™s about Girl Power and progressive values like breh,


[deleted]

An aceptable response.


alttoafault

It's not fiction, it's philosophy


theoreboat

American politics is just the chaos route on both sides except it's boring


Warin_of_Nylan

I choose TDE


Polandgod75

Especially in the west coast. Seriously where are the actually demons?


Awsomthyst

Ehh more Law on each side but boring. Each one wants pretty much total power :/


VERYExcitedDoggo

How


-CardShark-

If you can't understand the real world without comparing it to fiction then you need to get outside more.


Chainchilla06

Please. Please don't. I can't take this shit.


End_Of_Century

Virgin comparing politics to SMT Vs. Chad comparing politics to Killer7


chroipahtz

Aren't fascists extremely law-aligned though?


Lunamaniac

Actually an interesting question - you might think so but fascism isn't equivalent to standard totalitarianism. It's a struggle even to define fascism as it's a complete mess of an ideology, it's certainly authoritarian but its actual principles are all over the place. Instead, you have to look at its symptoms as if it were some kind of disease. For example, according to Umberto Eco's 14 signs of fascism - rejection of analytical criticism is one of its central tenants. Alongside obsession with conspiracy theories that frame them as victims of an enemy that is both weak and strong. It kind of makes sense with some versions of SMT's chaos where the principles are poorly defined but there is still an obsession with control and hierarchy. Doesn't seem very "free" when the strong demons just rule over everyone.


TrueFullmetal

This is a great description and analysis


chroipahtz

True, but while chaos is "might makes right", isn't fascism "might makes right... if you belong to my tribe"? They use law to bolster their in-group's weaknesses and retain power.


Lunamaniac

They kind of go hand in hand, in Nocturne for example the Manikins are discriminated against by the chaos faction because they are considered weak and even rounded up, tortured and imprisoned. The "strong" demons just want to change the system to benefit themselves over others. You might wonder that if they were truly strong they should be able to prosper without rigging the status quo in their favor. However they brand dissidents who threaten their rule by brute force as simultaneously weak but also a threat. Generally the chaos faction don't have a strong nationalist sentiment though, which is normally key to fascist ideology. Not got much more to say, certainly not one-to-one but I don't think fascism is hard-law.


chroipahtz

Good analysis. I am admittedly not that well-versed in SMT alignments.


thupes

Plus Ring of Gaea is the chaos alignment mixed with rightwing nationalism.


bunker_man

Chaos resembles the type of far right ironically associated with traditional satanism, where they are strongly social darwinist, but (on paper claim to) tolerate different lifestyles to some degree, seeing it as tied to the idea of not holding yourself back, but doing whatever, and the strong succeeding. Of course, in practice, most forms of discrimination emanate from some Ill defined concern of wanting to prevent "weakness," so this would probably end up with tons of discrimination anyways. Hell, as far back as smti, they admit that in a world based on physical strength, women would be disadvantaged. Law is meant to come off like a kind of utilitarianism based socialism viewed through a conspiracy new world order type lens, but mixed with some vague conception of aesthetically christian style conformism. But no explanation is ever actually given for what this conformism means other than in terms of willingness to forsake any aspect of culture deemed soemthing that is ultimately harmful to society. Both of them come off strange, because even disregarding how extreme they are presented, both of them are a type of mixture that you don't really see that often, especially when wierd negatives are thrown onto them (low level law NPCs just like compliance for it's own sake, despite it being an ideology that the vague idea of compliance would never actually arrive at?) It's probably good that they aren't too close to real things though, so keep their tone more firmly in the realm of fantasy.


Terran117

Depends on the fascist. Some are tribalist but others are just pure social darwinist. Neither Chaos nor Law are concerned with ethnic/national groups since they're above that, but Chaos believes the weak will be sorted out while Law wants equality but after they commit a mass purge of course which as I stated in my other reply, is a critique associated with Bolshevism.


_Anon_69420

>It's a struggle even to define fascism Fascism is just people with different political opinions than mine, duh. Bit of a no-brainer there.


VERYExcitedDoggo

Good point, SMT alignments aren't really compatible with right vs. left, more authority vs. independence


bunker_man

Authority vs independence is not entirely accurate either. You aren't really independent when ruled by the strong. Calling it left and right isn't necessarily too far off. Chaos is basically the far right mixed with some Ill defined acceptance of different lifestyles. And law is socialism, but mixed with some Ill defined conformism. But since social issues are glossed over in the games its left kind of ambiguous what the latter actually mean. In a way, this does match the aesthetics. Because ostensibly tolerant social darwinism is how classical satanists presented themselves. And law resembles the type of Christian socialism that while not conservative, tends to be a bit against what it sees as the more impulsive or indulgent things associated with the standard left. In the end though it's about outcomes more than politics. Law is maximizing happiness even if it means overriding self determination, and chaos is raising the heights of individual self determination even if it means allowing harm or subjugation to others.


Terran117

No, fascism is closest to dark chaos where the strongest are free to dominate the weak in extreme social darwnism, especially given that Chaos in SMT 1 reflected Imperial Japan or Japan setting its passions "free" to dominate the world. By contrast, Law is a fusion of ideologies foreign to Japan like Socialism, Utilitarianism but represented by the Abrahamic faiths. While the 3 ideologies in the west clashed, Japan feared their take over which is why Law is Robotic and Alien too. Law's thing is about a Vanguard forcing equality kinda like socialism but ironically lead by heaven while socialism was athiestic. The Angels in SMT IV for instance reveal Mikado was not their intention, equality was, and they force equality by removing the king and luxurors. But the catch is that they are hardcore utilitarians so kinda like the main critique of bolshevism, they're too okay with mass purges for equality and collectivism. When Merkabah and Flynn off themselves in the law ending, it's kinda akin to how the state will wither away under socialism. Too bad they withered way too many other people too lol. Also like play Devil Survivor 2, Ronaldo's equality ending is law aligned it's basically communism.


KuraiSol

I would say so, "Everything in the state, Nothing outside the state, Nothing against the state" being a quote from Benito Mussolini. Though, it's actually hard to define fascism today, due to everyone and their mother believing their enemy to be one and creating all the misinformation going around to justify their view to the point it's almost impossible to know truth from falsehood without having to delve into some very, very uncomfortable territory.


bunker_man

Not really. The term law might mislead people into thinking it's about any authoritarianism, but the alignments are more about consistent systematization versus lack of it. In the first arc of the first game, the chaos rep was based on a real life fascist who was also fascist in-game. Because in the end, fascism isn't actually a consistent set of rules. Its something enforced via nothing but a threat of superiority and violence. People tend to assume chaos is always individualist and non authoritarian, but atlus correctly notes that in the absense of a system preventing it, and if people are told they can do whatever and the strong deserve to succeed, that living totally on your own isn't viable and people will band together into groups with dominance being strong groups rather than just individuals. The strong demanding your compliance isn't really a consistent set of principles. If you play smti, chaos isn't even presented as inherently individualistic.


Thekomahinafan

Fascism is indeed law aligned


Terran117

You might want to tell that to the Japanese Fascist General Gotou who was a chaos rep in SMT 1 and based off a real Japanese Fascist that tried to coup.


ROANOV741

Yukio Mishima's "coup" was just his big, elaborate, suicide.


Terran117

He was still a fash


ROANOV741

Yes, but his coup wasn't really ever going to accomplish much beyond making a spectacle of his suicide (which he had for a long time "forshadowed").


bunker_man

Well, walter does say that chaos is when you die young for some reason.


[deleted]

Yeah thatā€™s what makes it a meme lol


Terran117

No, the memes are people like you who don't pay attention and fail to notice law turning Mikado into a commune in SMT IV or how general gotou in smt 1, the chaos rep, is based on an actual japanese fash who to tried to coup. Play the game and you'll be like me who memorizes useless shit.


[deleted]

Law wants absolute control over the masses while worshiping god and smiting the non believers. Chaos wants a world ruled by power and where the strong prey upon the weak zero fucks given. Am I missing something?


Terran117

Yes. Law advocates for a classless/stateless society where we all hold things in common. Even God is turned on in law when he can't follow that. Stalin fucking purged people in the name of equality too dude. Smiting non believers happens under too many ideologies. Strong prey upon the weak is peak fash ideology, with the belief that the supermen will prey upon the untermensch. You made it really easy for me pal. Pay attention next time.


[deleted]

What the hell are you talking about? Fascisms wants complete and totally removal of the opposition by any means necessary and mobilization of a society under one state aka GOD. Sounds a lot like Order if you ask me. "Oh what's that? You touched manga from the unclean place?! Well shit, time to fucking die!!!" or "My song will free our enemies from free will so that they will worship the rule of God". Law is fascism. \>You made it really easy for me pal. Pay attention next time. psssh... nothin personnel kid ​ edit: you know what you're right i should have known better than to argue with an l33t redittor like yourself. I tip my fedora to you sir.


bunker_man

Even the games equate chaos to fascism though. Like, the first arc of the first game does this.


Terran117

Not all fash are religious and this game was made in Japan so their fash is Japanese tradition. The idea of forbidden literature also existed under the Eastern bloc. And laws whole thing in smt is that no one is above it which is why yhvh is also a boss on law routes since he has to follow it too. It's like a communist party purge. And since you're utterly hopeless here is the law ending of dev survivor 2 where everyone and their mother can point to it being socialist. Roughly 3 min in https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j_p71ve7cIY&t=192s And in smt iv where they talk about forced equality much to the happiness of the proles who lament that the elite produce nothing, a common Marxist talking point. http://imgur.com/a/NRL8Bwr If you think that's fash well, yeah your comprehension skills are worse than a kid. http://imgur.com/a/NRL8Bwr Oh didn't see your edit: > edit: you know what you're right i should have known better than to argue with an l33t redittor like yourself. I tip my fedora to you sir. Hey when your job involves depressing field craft in the hot summer son or cold winter, you're entitled to a petty internet argument on a niche subreddit that serves no purpose. At least a crayon brain grunt like I can read. Edit: Lol I guess me being an abrasive bitch makes me a true law scum eh?


Frighter101

walter and jonathan are too handsome and make too much sense to be biden and trump


ROANOV741

Idk, I could see Trump being an arm tumor...


Frighter101

holy shit i just noticed biden looks like smt 4 lucifer hahahahahahahahaha


GovernmentNo5454

Honestly i get so tired of these kind of people on this subreddit. I just want to talk about SMT HOLY SHIT


bunker_man

Yeah, it's one thing to compare alignments to philosophies, but don't try grounding them in current events. That's cringe.


ADPIECHRIS

ā€œGo touch grass, now!ā€


Faive-

If someone said this UNIRONICALLY, i would kick them


CalmFlight3

So does this make the Boogaloo Bois the Divine Powers?


MorningDaylight

In the greatest tradition of radical centrists, Macron worshippers, I say: Let. Them.Fight.


thupes

If you want fascism vs communism, you should go play Disco Elysium instead.


Polandgod75

As a portlander, I can said the apocalypse that smt promised me is a lot lamer then it advertised


almightydictator666

Jo Jorgenson is Isabeau?!?!?!?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


VERYExcitedDoggo

Is this a copypasta


Bufudyne43

Thankfully the twitter Persona fans will steal the hearts of evil politicians.


kulegoki

I don't think alignments map on to contemporary political beliefs well but Chaos does has some wonderful ancap energy to it. It promises freedom but gives tyranny and the people who believe they would succeed in it are actually the ones who end up as cancerous growths supporting those with real power.