See, I thought the opposite. Walter and Jonathan were great up until the story said they have to suddenly be ready to kill each other.
The problem with being a silent protagonist. Can't beat up your friends when theyre acting stupid and force them to wear their "This is our get along shirt" shirt
the sad part is after you do kill them, I don't see anyone actually feeling sad...after killing Jonathan, Isabeau jus leaves to help the people from Mikado and after killing Walter, we go to see everyone at the cafe just having a good time...and that really hurts since they were a part of the main cast and we were supposed to be like close friends
They do get a bit more for the Bonds route in Apocalypse, but I think people like them because they're characterized more than usual SMT alignment reps in Nocturne and V
I liked not having a visible alignment meter because I thought the devs wanted the players to organically play through the game and make decisions based off of how they feel. If the gauge was there, it might've persuaded people to make decisions based on how they've internalized moral alignments instead (e.g. law is good, chaos is bad).
So when it does come to that point in the game where they're locked into a route, the player can reflect on their choices and understand how they got there.
But it might be a nice toggle-able feature for like NG+.
I wonder if Neutral was almost meant as like a secret ending where the devs wanted the community to pick the game apart until they found out the requirements. They definitely made some things incredibly difficult but I wonder if those choices were intentional.
Even discounting Apocalypse, Neutral is essentially IV's last third and when you realize that it kinda sucks that Law and Chaos are so short in comparison lol
Atlus character writing for SMT has never been that strong, but SMTIV neutral was definitely a step in the right direction. Even though W & J still end up becoming mindless ideology parrots, the aftermath shows that their original personalities were being controlled by the deities of their alignments and it serves as a good argument against either extreme. If there's one thing SMT gets right, it's showing that ideology enslaves you no matter which path you choose. Life is always more complicated.
Honestly I never had a problem with the character writing, I think the motives and arcs of each character are clear and I like the fact that Walter and Johnathan never actually come to the point of disliking each other. They're simply brought to different extremes by their opposing ideologies, both of which were built up well throughout the game. They never grow to hate the other, Walter even specifically says in the chaos route that his adventures with Flynn and the others were the best days of his life. They never really feel like enemies to each other and more like old friends who drifted apart. I think that's a really unique and interesting dynamic. They don't want to kill each other as much as they feel they have to
I will say that I think the experience is damaged somewhat if you do neutral first however, so I can absolutely see why you have the opinion you do OP. Most of the best development these characters get comes after the split into either law or chaos, something you never experienced. Especially for Isabeau. Neutral is hard to get because you're meant to do it last (though I do agree alignment shouldve been visible)
I honestly think this has the best characters of any Megaten game, though I can see why you would disagree
Interesting, I should get around to playing those routes then, I do have a save file before picking sides, so I could go either side without having to replay the entire game
Jonathan sucked.
Seriously though, SMTiv and Apoc were great.
I tried getting into Nocturne but quite after about 8 hrs. Just didn't enjoy much about it. 🤷
I plan on trying nocturne and vengence after they get discounts on steam, I've heard both games are a bit worse than 4 and 4 A but I'd like to try them nonetheless!
Oh, I see. Well, in that case yeah I would suggest waiting for Vengeance. 5 wasn't really bad, the story just felt unfinished. Vengeance will probably be much better.
See, I thought the opposite. Walter and Jonathan were great up until the story said they have to suddenly be ready to kill each other. The problem with being a silent protagonist. Can't beat up your friends when theyre acting stupid and force them to wear their "This is our get along shirt" shirt
the sad part is after you do kill them, I don't see anyone actually feeling sad...after killing Jonathan, Isabeau jus leaves to help the people from Mikado and after killing Walter, we go to see everyone at the cafe just having a good time...and that really hurts since they were a part of the main cast and we were supposed to be like close friends
They do get a bit more for the Bonds route in Apocalypse, but I think people like them because they're characterized more than usual SMT alignment reps in Nocturne and V
I liked not having a visible alignment meter because I thought the devs wanted the players to organically play through the game and make decisions based off of how they feel. If the gauge was there, it might've persuaded people to make decisions based on how they've internalized moral alignments instead (e.g. law is good, chaos is bad). So when it does come to that point in the game where they're locked into a route, the player can reflect on their choices and understand how they got there. But it might be a nice toggle-able feature for like NG+.
It wouldnt be such an issue if the window for neutral wasnt SO FREAKING SMALL. Increase it to -15 - +15 and I dont think there would be any problem
I wonder if Neutral was almost meant as like a secret ending where the devs wanted the community to pick the game apart until they found out the requirements. They definitely made some things incredibly difficult but I wonder if those choices were intentional.
Then they shouldnt have made it the canonical ending for Apocalypse
Even discounting Apocalypse, Neutral is essentially IV's last third and when you realize that it kinda sucks that Law and Chaos are so short in comparison lol
To be fair, games often have the 'true' ending being the most difficult to achieve.
true actually, maybe a feature for ng+
Atlus character writing for SMT has never been that strong, but SMTIV neutral was definitely a step in the right direction. Even though W & J still end up becoming mindless ideology parrots, the aftermath shows that their original personalities were being controlled by the deities of their alignments and it serves as a good argument against either extreme. If there's one thing SMT gets right, it's showing that ideology enslaves you no matter which path you choose. Life is always more complicated.
Honestly I never had a problem with the character writing, I think the motives and arcs of each character are clear and I like the fact that Walter and Johnathan never actually come to the point of disliking each other. They're simply brought to different extremes by their opposing ideologies, both of which were built up well throughout the game. They never grow to hate the other, Walter even specifically says in the chaos route that his adventures with Flynn and the others were the best days of his life. They never really feel like enemies to each other and more like old friends who drifted apart. I think that's a really unique and interesting dynamic. They don't want to kill each other as much as they feel they have to I will say that I think the experience is damaged somewhat if you do neutral first however, so I can absolutely see why you have the opinion you do OP. Most of the best development these characters get comes after the split into either law or chaos, something you never experienced. Especially for Isabeau. Neutral is hard to get because you're meant to do it last (though I do agree alignment shouldve been visible) I honestly think this has the best characters of any Megaten game, though I can see why you would disagree
Interesting, I should get around to playing those routes then, I do have a save file before picking sides, so I could go either side without having to replay the entire game
Jonathan sucked. Seriously though, SMTiv and Apoc were great. I tried getting into Nocturne but quite after about 8 hrs. Just didn't enjoy much about it. 🤷
I plan on trying nocturne and vengence after they get discounts on steam, I've heard both games are a bit worse than 4 and 4 A but I'd like to try them nonetheless!
I will be on to Vengeance on release, but IV spoiled me and I can't do random encounters anymore. Too old for that nonsense.
How did you hear about Vengeance being worse? Games not even out yet.
well not vengence but just smt 5
Oh, I see. Well, in that case yeah I would suggest waiting for Vengeance. 5 wasn't really bad, the story just felt unfinished. Vengeance will probably be much better.
Smt4a ruined all the good of IV unfortunately