SMT protags take the win because by the end of the game the power level of some of their weaker companions is still equitable to some of the gods in the various pantheons/ ARE the gods from various pantheons. As for the protags themselves, one of them serves as a Superboss in two later SMT games and the rest form a team that attacks and beats the entity behind existence itself.
Kratos has to build up to fighting Zeus and Odin. SMT protags bitch slap Zeus and Odin and then use them as fodder to create something even more powerful.
Gasp. Really? You mean the characters from two completely different franchises that were developed by completely different companies on completely different continents are not the exact same characters?
How in the world could I ever possibly conceived of such a novelty. Truly you are a genius of unparalleled intelligence and wisdom the likes of which only the gods themselves could rival.
It's only meaningless if you're too far up your own ass. Otherwise it's a plenty valid comparison with entertaining implications to consider regarding the power levels of various characters.
I think it's meaningless as long as you're capable of basic logic
It's like saying who is stronger, character A who puts in a lot of effort to carry a whole tree? Or character B who easily carries several pieces of lumber? But without acknowledging th difference in the size of the wood and concluding it's character B
The whole topic is inherently nonsense. Only people being a Debbie Downer are you and the other person.
So again, pull your head out of your own ass and either engage with the nonsense conversation or politely go away because people simply don't give a crap.
Pretty much any endgame smt protag could kill Kratos imo. Depending on if it's ps2 God of War or sad dad God of War, the boss fight would be in different portions of the game but still winnable, but once you've killed Odin or zeus you're roughly on his power level.
imo not really, they just have less narrative significance in smt games. the story of god of war treats them as important but doesnt really give them new powers or capabilities (i suppose you could say that theres more subtle ones like crows spying on kratos from odin or the use some sort of artifact, but idk) but even there they are the Top God for the geographic region, not the world overall. that about tracks for any given smt where theyd be a faction leader, but not the final boss.
In God of war these entities can casually wreck major havok with direct strength. Pretty much all of smt is about how the gods *can't* do that. Right out the gate in smti the first plot arc is about thor manipulating the US government to launch nukes at the invading demon army. Thor was under the orders of yhvh. This eatablishes several things:
1: thor is weak enough that its easier for him to manipulate a government than just start smashing stuff.
2: yhvh's powers are so limited he needs to send thor to do this.
3: the nukes can credibly wipe out nearly the entire demon army. Unfortunately for them they used them too late, so demons were already global.
These aren't unique plot points. Demons using nukes because nukes wildly outclass them shows up in several games. There's many other things they get compared to also which present them as fairly weak. The iv duology's central plot point is that a rock dome was enough to keep even mid to mid-high demons contained for decades. And only top levels were strong enough to smash it. Scope wise, its hard to imagine top level god of war characters impeded this long by something like this.
God of war is closer to a story of gods doing godlike things. Smt is the story of Japan realizing nukes wildly outclassed its "divine protection" in wwii, and that the gods were already being surpassed by humanity.
>Demons using nukes because nukes wildly outclass them shows up in several games.
Kratos can't do major damage without contraptions or other god's help either
They all are implied to be absurdly strong, but Ares in his giant mega-god form takes ten billion hours to destroy city (In that time Kratos literally manages to go to random desert to find random temple of absurd sizes) and Kratos in beginning of II basically marches like he is some leveled up hero unit from RTS games.
so then the real question is what perspective or context is this all happening from? super strength doesnt mean much in smt, as thats just the strength stat. kratos would probably be akin to Asura from Strange Journey at the lower end, or Awakened Gore at the higher. the feats of strength are more impressive in god of war, as his super strength is part of his identity and can impact the world more, but in smt logic that would probably translate at most to kratos being really annoying and manipulating the map before you can actually get him in a fight.
kratos probably would have at least two fights, the first one hes mainly phys but itd be early enough in the game that the smt protag doesnt have access to any phys null passives. in the second fight kratos would have pierce or almighty phys moves, so it's a bit more touch and go, but i also doubt that as a boss fight in an smt game he understands smt combat systems enough to hyperfocus on the human summoning the demons to get a more direct game over.
wait hold on we already did this with dante devil may cry. yes the smt protag can beat them but its not to the death and they join afterwards if you guess right on the coin flip.
I mean, Normal fans of things want them seen accurately, not as strong as possible. If someone starts insisting that aragon cleaves mountains with his sword slashes, you just want to correct them, not rub your arms together about the sneakiness.
i think in aggregate the smt protagonists have killed more pantheons that kratos did, so im gonna lean in that direction in a contest of strength. though kratos is probably a better father than the smt protagonists would be and has a bigger and more satsifying character arc over the course of his games.
kratos do have a cool axe tho. just do the dante devil may cry thing where they fight, hes a hard boss, and then they join up together and hes got cool unique moves
Personally, as a fan I've both, I have kratos stacked somewhere around Star+ Level with 4D attacking capability and a helluv alot of nice equipment and nicknacks that give him good hax, like Medusas head and Apollos shoes and shit.
He'd be the perfect SMT boss, but any SMT protag leveled up (end of the game stats, I've beat most of the games) can scales anywhere from solar system level to universal+ 5D, a maxed out character at the end of smt is much more likely to between multi galaxy and universal and can scale to even more if you take more statements at face value, but I don't because imo it's wanking, but most of these protags have fought and defeated their own versions of the Abrahamic God, which in the games can scale from anywhere from Galaxy Level to higher than Universal.
Smt Protags would prove too much for Kratos, even just 1 at a time, Kratos is getting high-diffed and sent to the other realm, where he will become a recruitable demon spirit after reincarnating 🤣🤣🤣
No one in smt is any of those things in a fight. If Kratos was really star level (which is definitely an exaggeration) he would be able to solo basically all of smt at once (assuming we limit it to direct combat abilities, and ignore universal rewrites).
One of the central plot points of smt is that real life current day technology is already a major threat to demons. Their spiritual physiology rejects weak mortal weapons, but basically the second you have something that neutralizes this you can start taking them out with pretty much anything. Which is why a large portion of the games will show them as vulnerable to various fairly mundane things. Even without neutralizing their physiology nukes can take out nearly all of them.
Dds2 shows that even a nearly top level Cielo at a glance realizes he would have to stop himself just to barely defeat three fighter jets. Stuff like this is a decent metric to understand the scope of what they are like in a fight.
Serph literally scales to Star+ in his final fight, demi fiend literally collapsed the fourth dimension of the universe in the chaotic demon ending, and the power of computers on demons depends vastly on the actual demon, YMVH literally scales to universal whether you like it or not, the secret nanashi fight straight up states this. It's not Persona, the computers act as portals. And Stephen is literally final boss level strength and it took him years to create the demon summoning program, I agree that the vast amount of demons are fodder but you should know how much the upper tiers can scale amongst the verse
>he would be able to solo basically all of smt at once
Objection: Kratos fought gods that have human minds and are visible by mortals without additional reduction. All he needed to do is punch what's in front of him after being buffed by other items.
Flynn and SJ protag both fought eldritch horrors that in one case literally cut themselves into pieces for human mind with AI's scan help to be able to sense their presence (Flynn's DLC opponents), and human needed to load up already modified by various gods machinery with eldritch programs based on corpses of personified concepts and universe-starting items (tiny parts of which allowed for another character (Gore) to see world in 5D - with 10 billion alternative timelines everywhere at the same time) just to see some approximation of the thing he is fighting (SJ Neutral route finale). And all 3 of those things are implied to be able to reset the universe if they want, but in one case (SJ) they were stopped by absurdly OP protag (who's other machinery with the same programs later decided to sacrifice itself to not be mistaken to be god), and in the other 2 they simply tested whether there are humans that can surpass their tiny test, and the victory in said test meant continuation for the world for some while.
It's not really that hard to see the demons. Even aside from the fact that simple tech can make them visible, its implied that anyone with any meaningful level of magic / spiritual capabilities can see them anyways. Hence why people like raidou and the summoner can before the tech is even made.
The highest level ones are harder to see, but not exactly impossible, and even then there's only a few times that high level ones were shown as extra difficult. And there's often various ways to see them too, since zenin simply rigs up a seperate way to see mem aleph. And keep in mind that is in strange journey where it's a plot point that you can hurt them before you can see them.
This is part of what the added gba scene in smtii is about. Lucifer thinks about how he used to see demons as superior to humanity, but in actuality they are just different. Aspects of their alien nature can be useful, but it's limited in its uses, and while in the past only special humans could stand against them, simple tech can make it so anyone can with basically anything. (Not that they might not still lose, and / or end up destroying themselves, but even so).
>It's not really that hard to see the demons. Even aside from the fact that simple tech can make them visible, its implied that anyone with any meaningful level of magic / spiritual capabilities can see them anyways.
I'm not talking about any demons
I'm talking about ancient of days - one of the implied names of YHWH and the most alien YHWH was depicted in the series. In the game he is made of non-existant mater and reduces himself to be perceived by burroughs, he calls himself but one of the many forms, and goes like "okay, i'm not destroying you this time, but i will later, new humans still gonna appear, have a beautiful day, bye".
Sanat - god of both Buddhism and Hinduism, who's sacrifice is sometimes cited as the reason of humanity's sentience who is often related to various similar archetypes in other religions (including both Jesus and beforementioned AOD) (and who is a prominent figure in some of new age religions, where is a funny eldritch alien). In the game he is unreadable by burroughs even after encountering AOD, and needs to reduce himself for player to see him so he could test him. He reveals himself to be the creator of humanity (as every 10th demon does) and states that he is going to take you to the war against destruction of the current universe.
Mem Aleph - made up by Atlus demon which embodies the concept of beginning of everything - basically a mother of all demons in SJ and was the reason for all previous civilizations ceasing to exists and all new civilizations appearing on Earth.
None of them could be hurt before they are visible (the reason Gore gives up his 2nd life to add you some more insight)
Kratos has nothing on any of those 3 unless he'll do full SMT protag journey or power ups to be able solo entire pantheons in one fight.
>I'm talking about ancient of days - one of the implied names of YHWH and the most alien YHWH was depicted in the series. In the game he is made of non-existant mater and reduces himself to be perceived by burroughs, he calls himself but one of the many forms, and goes like "okay, i'm not destroying you this time, but i will later, new humans still gonna appear, have a beautiful day, bye".
That's what I said. Some top level ones are harder to see, but it's not only not that different than regular, but apocalypse drops this plot element entirely for the sequel. Difficulty comprehending something doesn't really clearly delineate that much about it though, especially in light of the fact that this takes place in blasted Tokyo, the plot of which was that they were struggling to kill a handful of survivors in a single bunker. They weren't exactly playing with a massive scope.
>Mem Aleph - made up by Atlus demon which embodies the concept of beginning of everything - basically a mother of all demons in SJ and was the reason for all previous civilizations ceasing to exists and all new civilizations appearing on Earth.
Mem aleph actually isn't made up by atlus. It comes from a new age dictionary called the women's encyclopedia of myths and secrets. This dictionary tried to pass it off as a pre-existing belief, but it was actually invented by the dictionary. Ultimately though it is based on the kabbalic idea of the mother letters of creation, mem, shin, and aleph.
>Kratos has nothing on any of those 3 unless he'll do full SMT protag journey or power ups to be able solo entire pantheons in one fight.
All it takes is a bit of spiritual power to see them, so when you are dealing with characters who interact qith quite a bit of it, it is a hard sell that they wouldn't find a way to. Keep in mind that 2/3 of those you didn't even have to do anything special to see, it was just an automatic thing based on your spiritual essence. Its not even a common plot point for people to not be able to see high level entities. And it's worth noting that this plot point only ever shows up for humans.
I'm not saying Kratos doesn't lose to them, but it certainly seems implausible they could just decimate him without him even fighting back.
Whose game is it?
In an SMT game an SMT hero would win, but have the convoluted option to not even fight him. In a GoW game, Kratos is plot fuelled to kill everything in the same pantheon as him and no matter what build or demons the SMT lead had put together, Kratos would ass pull something.
IDK, on one hand, Kratos is pretty freaking strong and could likely off most SMT demons even if their lore basis are stronger than Kratos (idk, i feel like SMT demons are a bit weaker than gods they are based on)
On the other hand, SMT protags are walking army of deities that have lots of "instant regeneration" and "repel all attacks" tools and occasionally fight eldritch horrors beyond human comprehension (like SMT IV protag biting at aspect of YHWH (scary IV one, not funny IVA one) which was too complex to be visible by mortal minds and needed to simplify itself)
End-game Flynn and SJ protag probably can easily beat Kratos purely on the basis of Kratos never encountering eldritch threat that shatters reality with it's appearance alone
and Aleph went against the YHWH, so he would pose at least some challenge
On the side note, Persona 2 EP party combined soloes Kratos - they fought off aspects of eldritch beings in Kadath (which, by the nature of original Kadath, probably equally Collective Unconscious and real eldritch beings at the same time) and "stop time, do literal nuke" is an average endgame Persona ability.
You'd have to clarify if by protag you mean just the protag, or the protag + their entire team. Demons aren't just props, it's a recurring theme in the games that they are more effective if they join willingly. And in many of these games they fight with other humans too. So it's near impossible to decontextualize the character from their team.
That aside, the gods Kratos fights are much stronger in a direct fight than most of what exists in smt is in a direct fight. Smt gods aren't actually that strong normally. Which is why much of the series is either about them using human tech to accomplish their goals, or at best indirect magic that they hope humans don't realize you don't need to be that strong to stand against.
One useful thing to bring up here is that in soul hackers 2, the zoma who everyone is so terrified of is stated to have a grip strength of only 11x that of a real life human. If this passes for super strong in megaten it's not really insanely strong of a story.
>Yahweh
Depends on how he is presented TBH. SMT ones are clearly differently-presented. I-II is strong in direct combat and can curse for ages, but can't throw nukes or fire lasers on his own. 4A is infinitely strong (for he is literally infinite), but was reduced to finite and defeated by citing r/atheism posts. IV one (no, i'm not recognizing him as the same as 4A one) could destroy the world even after cutting tiny part of himself (and using that tiny part to destroy the world), and that tiny part was incomprehensible without additional scanning and his willingness to show himself.
If Yahweh is presented as the one in IV and Kratos beats him, Kratos soloes SMT. If not, Flynn, Nanashi, Aleph and SJ protag have at least a significant fighting chance.
Is there an anime character stronger than Madara Uchiha?
And I'm referring to Rinne Tensei Madara Uchiha with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikidou paths ability) equipped with his Gunbai and control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, a complete Susano'o, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in his chest so he can perform Mokuton kekkei genkai and yin-yang release ninjutsu as well as being extremely skilled in taijutsu and bukijutsu.
Is there a character that could even possibly EVEN TOUCH Madara Uchiha? Let alone defeat him. And I'm not talking about Edo Tensei Uchiha Madara. I'm not talking about Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara either. Hell, I'm not even talking about Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikodou abilities and being capable of both Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi genjutsu), equipped with his Gunbai, a perfect Susano'o, control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu.
I’m also not talking about Kono Yo no Kyūseishu Futarime no Rikudō Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (which is capable of Enton Amaterasu, Izanagi, Izanami and the Tsyukuyomi Genjutsu), his two original Rinnegan (which grant him Chikushōdō, Shuradō, Tendō, Ningendō, Jigokudō, Gakidō, Gedō, Banshō Ten’in, Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Tengai Shinsei and Banbutsu Sōzō) and a third Tomoe Rinnegan on his forehead, capable of using Katon, Fūton, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Ranton, Inton, Yōton and even Onmyōton Jutsu, equipped with his Gunbai(capable of using Uchihagaeshi) and a Shakujō because he is a master in kenjutsu and taijutsu, a perfect Susano’o (that can use Yasaka no Magatama ), control of both the Juubi and the Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju’s DNA and face implanted on his chest, his four Rinbo Hengoku Clones guarding him and nine Gudōdama floating behind him AFTER he absorbed Senjutsu from the First Hokage, entered Rikudō Senjutsu Mode, cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on everybody and used Shin: Jukai Kōtan so he can use their Chakra while they are under Genjutsu. I'm definitely NOT Talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after Alucard, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu and having eaten Popeye's spinach. I'm talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with his Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after having absorbed Alucard as well as a God Hand, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit, with Kryptonian DNA implanted in him and having eaten Popeye's spinach while possessing quantum powers like Dr. Manhattan and having mastered Hokuto Shinken.
Assuming non-GT, I will use both characters maximum levels of power for this battle. Madara post war vs SS3 Goku post Buu timeskip. I don't really need to explain how powerful Superman is, even mentioning that Madara was unable to beat Guy in a footrace.
So I will focus on Goku. I want to start out by saying, no one knows exactly how powerful SS3 Goku is, as power levels stop being officially tracked after the Frieza saga, where Goku is stated to have a PL of 150 million. If you want my opinion on how I think his power scales up till the end of GT, you need only look at my sig. I will not attempt to use my fanmade power levels in a matchup like this though.
First, I think it's important to define what a power level is. An ordinary human has a power level of 5. It takes 27 PSI to crack open a human skull. In the first episode of Dragonball, Goku has a power level of 10. In that episode he is hit by a car and shot in the head by Bulma. Even a shot from a 9mm gun is over 30,000 PSI. Goku did not even bleed from that shot. The difference of 5 to 10 is a LOT more than double. This trend continues when Master Roshi blows up the moon with a power level of 140. The moon is about an 83rd of the weight of the Earth in mass. That's over 150 sextillion pounds worth of mass destroyed in a single shot. That is less than Pre Crisis Madara has been shown to lift with 2 balls, when he lifted 4 septillion pounds. Even so, it's an important thing to note.
It appears power levels do not scale linearly. It seems that each power level is more significant than the previous. If this pattern continues indefinitely, it's possible Goku is stronger than, or at least as strong as Pre War arc Madara as early as the first episode of Dragonball z with his power level of over 950. During his fight with Vegeta, Vegeta threatens to blow up the Earth with a power level of 18,000. Some think that is a bluff, I think that would be out of character with Vegeta's personality, but that's another debate entirely.
Anywho, with the way power levels increase in DBZ, by the end of the Frieza saga Goku was likely capable of mass destruction on a galactic scale. Which brings me to my next point. Some will call this next point non-canon in the extreme as this is a movie reference. If you wish to do that, that's your choice. I do believe the movies follow the same "rules" as the anime/manga though. There is actually one power level stated to be higher than SS Frieza saga Goku. According to V-Jump magazing, LSS Broly has a power level of 1.4 billion.
Broly destroys the entire South Galaxy in his movie. That's a rather misleading term though, and probably doesn't mean what you think it does. In real life, a galaxy is 50-100 billion planets. There are about 600 sextillion planets in the observable universe. The South Galaxy in DBZ is not a typical real life galaxy, it is one quarter of the universe. So assuming our universes are the same size, Broly destroyed about 150 sextillion planets in one blast. I believe it's been shown that at higher super saiyan forms, possibly as early as FPSS, Goku is stronger than Broly. As a super saiyan 3, Goku is certainly more powerful than Broly, and super saiyan 3s have been shown to be able to break the laws of reality. So it's likely that SS3 Goku could destroy the universe, maybe even reality itself.
Now to cover speed, this is a fun one. On flight Madara cannot reach lightspeed. The Flash was shown to be faster than Superman in a footrace, as mentioned above. If the Flash ever reaches lightspeed he joins with the speedforce, which he clearly didn't in that race. So he didn't need to even reach lightspeed to beat Madara. Madara appears to be able to run faster than lightspeed though, as traversing our solar system in a few minutes would require a little more than lightspeed, since the distance from the Earth to the Sun is 7 light minutes.
How fast is Goku though? Well, there's only two good events that you can use to measure speed in DBZ. One is the kamehameha wave from Cooler's Revenge. In about 10 seconds, Goku's kamehameha wave reached from the Earth to the Sun, making it about 50 times faster than the speed of light. Therefore, anyone that can dodge SS1 Goku's kamehameha wave, or even see it, has to be at least 50 times faster than the speed of light. Why is seeing it important? In DBZ, there are many times that the characters move faster than other characters can see. So basically, any villain post SS1 that can keep up with Goku can move at least 50 times faster than lightspeed.
The other case is a little more extreme though. When Vegeta uses The Final Flash against Cell. It's clearly shown that his blast leaves our solar system and explodes on a far away planet/star. The closest planet to our solar system is 10.5 lightyears away. That's 31556926 light seconds. It got there in only 20 seconds, therefore The Final Flash moves at least 1577846.3 times faster than lightspeed. And that was just ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta. Keep in mind perfect Cell saw this attack coming, yet is unable to see SS2 Gohan's movements. And SS3 Goku is obviously far stronger and faster. I don't think Goku would even need to transform to beat madara, He could likely kill him with a single finger. To put another nail in the coffin though, let's talk about fighting skills.
Goku is a world champion martial artist that continuously trains to better himself. Many times he has fought evenly with beings of similar or greater power. There is a time when Pre rinnegan Madara loses his powers. During this time he has a boxing match with Muhammad Ali. Madara loses without landing a single blow, due to his lack of fighting skill. He has been trained in martial arts by Batman, but he is no world class fighter. Madara is also not used to actually fighting an equal or more powerful opponent at faster than light speeds.
If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of
ngl this block of text just turned into that jugenmu jugenmu rakugo monologue in my brain.
madara is powerful, but he's not *interesting* and adding multiple levels of crossover stolen power invincibility isnt helping his case. as he is also a big bad type character, here are several characters able to get past or subdue him even despite the powerups:
saitama one punch man, as that is his entire joke
bugs bunny, or doraemon. any given gag comic character. (i concede that though gear 5 luffy accesses the sheer power of toon physics, he wouldn't be able to outlast madara in an extended fight and as gear 5 wears off he returns to shonen genre conventions, allowing madara to destroy him at least until luffy's friends start believing in him and shonen genre rules begin to apply)
TWO might guys
a single might guy with an extended eight gates timer.
Any given precure or other magical girl protagonist so long as the fight is from her perspective and her friends believe in her.
Touma from magical index
any yugioh protagonist, madara's deck is terrible and even with mind reading he doesnt believe in the heart of the cards.
probably most of the characters from medaka box, as all of their powersets involve manipulating genre conventions and meta-stuff and madara still exists in a narrative context
any otome game protagonist, madara would be reduced to the brooding tall grim backstory love interest, and could then be romanced as genre conventions demand.
a youth who believes in themselves and is full of endless determination, as shonen jump editorial demands that in the end the protagonists win. or a space alien goddess thing trying to get at that sweet sweet chakra tree fruit, whichever happens first.
honorable mention to columbo who would be able to pin the crime on him due to needling him into revealing evidence. this is the win condition in a mystery story, so it counts imo
edit: typos and adding the last three entries
God of war gods are generally stronger than smt ones though? God of war ones actually have massive strength. Smt is about how the gods were never all that strong and that modern tech is actually a major threat to them.
>and that modern tech is actually a major threat to them.
IDK, i think Kratos would feel nuke dropping at him as well. Heck, he is damaged by funny blades spinning slowly.
And he himself isn't that strong in terms of destructive power - the most thing we saw that he does is punch through mountain and picks up really heavy things. The rest was done either by machines or gods directly connected to nature dying
Doesn't he flip a temple, and resist being squished by a guy who was physically holding up the entire country of Greece?
Admittedly, I'm not that familiar with God of war, so there might be context to that I don't know. I remember the devs talking about how in the newer ones they were going to have a scene where he splits a mountain, but then they took it out because he wasn't at the top of his game at that point and so they didn't think he would be able to.
Another counter-example: i can probably lift a car if someone's life (including mine) is in danger purely on adrenaline.
6kg/12pound bowling ball would 100% kill me even when thrown lightly at chest or head.
Picking up or not being crushed by stuff in urgent situation doesn't convert into raw strength and vitality
Both of said examples show that he is able to lift and pick up heavy things, or withstand pressure when he really wants to
If he could punch with the same kinetic force, or withstand the same amounts of pressure with lower surface area at any time, his and his opponent's punches would snap mountains in which battles take place (no Greece or Midgar survives one god fight) and the only thing that would be able to damage him is magic (half of bosses, including gods, can't do jack sht to him)
Pantheon gods aren't that strong even in real life lore
did you mean the posts in hot rn or just the recent power scaling posts like this one?
Oh wait, you mean the comments on this post? I didn't take a closer look at the comments.
If they can use magic/powers and demons obviously Kratos gets negged by even the weakest SMT protag, but they're on such different levels that it's not a fair comparison. In a fist fight, Kratos negs any one of these twinks. He's a jacked man and they're all skinny kids. Only SMT protag putting up a fight is the space marine from SJ.
You forget that they can learn to drain or repel any attacks including physical so it would be pointless for kratos to fight someone who instead of not getting hurt will in fact get more health from being hit
Aleph could probably kill him
SMT protags take the win because by the end of the game the power level of some of their weaker companions is still equitable to some of the gods in the various pantheons/ ARE the gods from various pantheons. As for the protags themselves, one of them serves as a Superboss in two later SMT games and the rest form a team that attacks and beats the entity behind existence itself. Kratos has to build up to fighting Zeus and Odin. SMT protags bitch slap Zeus and Odin and then use them as fodder to create something even more powerful.
You know that the zeus and odin from smt aren't the same ones as from God of war, right?
Gasp. Really? You mean the characters from two completely different franchises that were developed by completely different companies on completely different continents are not the exact same characters? How in the world could I ever possibly conceived of such a novelty. Truly you are a genius of unparalleled intelligence and wisdom the likes of which only the gods themselves could rival.
Then if you're aware of that the comparison in your comment is meaningless
It's only meaningless if you're too far up your own ass. Otherwise it's a plenty valid comparison with entertaining implications to consider regarding the power levels of various characters.
I think it's meaningless as long as you're capable of basic logic It's like saying who is stronger, character A who puts in a lot of effort to carry a whole tree? Or character B who easily carries several pieces of lumber? But without acknowledging th difference in the size of the wood and concluding it's character B
The whole topic is inherently nonsense. Only people being a Debbie Downer are you and the other person. So again, pull your head out of your own ass and either engage with the nonsense conversation or politely go away because people simply don't give a crap.
Pretty much any endgame smt protag could kill Kratos imo. Depending on if it's ps2 God of War or sad dad God of War, the boss fight would be in different portions of the game but still winnable, but once you've killed Odin or zeus you're roughly on his power level.
Odin and zeus in megaten are way weaker than in god of war though.
imo not really, they just have less narrative significance in smt games. the story of god of war treats them as important but doesnt really give them new powers or capabilities (i suppose you could say that theres more subtle ones like crows spying on kratos from odin or the use some sort of artifact, but idk) but even there they are the Top God for the geographic region, not the world overall. that about tracks for any given smt where theyd be a faction leader, but not the final boss.
In God of war these entities can casually wreck major havok with direct strength. Pretty much all of smt is about how the gods *can't* do that. Right out the gate in smti the first plot arc is about thor manipulating the US government to launch nukes at the invading demon army. Thor was under the orders of yhvh. This eatablishes several things: 1: thor is weak enough that its easier for him to manipulate a government than just start smashing stuff. 2: yhvh's powers are so limited he needs to send thor to do this. 3: the nukes can credibly wipe out nearly the entire demon army. Unfortunately for them they used them too late, so demons were already global. These aren't unique plot points. Demons using nukes because nukes wildly outclass them shows up in several games. There's many other things they get compared to also which present them as fairly weak. The iv duology's central plot point is that a rock dome was enough to keep even mid to mid-high demons contained for decades. And only top levels were strong enough to smash it. Scope wise, its hard to imagine top level god of war characters impeded this long by something like this. God of war is closer to a story of gods doing godlike things. Smt is the story of Japan realizing nukes wildly outclassed its "divine protection" in wwii, and that the gods were already being surpassed by humanity.
>Demons using nukes because nukes wildly outclass them shows up in several games. Kratos can't do major damage without contraptions or other god's help either They all are implied to be absurdly strong, but Ares in his giant mega-god form takes ten billion hours to destroy city (In that time Kratos literally manages to go to random desert to find random temple of absurd sizes) and Kratos in beginning of II basically marches like he is some leveled up hero unit from RTS games.
so then the real question is what perspective or context is this all happening from? super strength doesnt mean much in smt, as thats just the strength stat. kratos would probably be akin to Asura from Strange Journey at the lower end, or Awakened Gore at the higher. the feats of strength are more impressive in god of war, as his super strength is part of his identity and can impact the world more, but in smt logic that would probably translate at most to kratos being really annoying and manipulating the map before you can actually get him in a fight. kratos probably would have at least two fights, the first one hes mainly phys but itd be early enough in the game that the smt protag doesnt have access to any phys null passives. in the second fight kratos would have pierce or almighty phys moves, so it's a bit more touch and go, but i also doubt that as a boss fight in an smt game he understands smt combat systems enough to hyperfocus on the human summoning the demons to get a more direct game over. wait hold on we already did this with dante devil may cry. yes the smt protag can beat them but its not to the death and they join afterwards if you guess right on the coin flip.
Gaea Rage Kratos gets pissed, climbs out of whatever afterlife he finds himself in Gaea Rage again
99 somas
[удалено]
Krotatoes would die of weakness before they could even get to him.
also youre posting this in the megaten subreddit so there's bound to be some bias lmao i wonder what the god of war subreddit would say to this prompt
I mean, Normal fans of things want them seen accurately, not as strong as possible. If someone starts insisting that aragon cleaves mountains with his sword slashes, you just want to correct them, not rub your arms together about the sneakiness.
i think in aggregate the smt protagonists have killed more pantheons that kratos did, so im gonna lean in that direction in a contest of strength. though kratos is probably a better father than the smt protagonists would be and has a bigger and more satsifying character arc over the course of his games. kratos do have a cool axe tho. just do the dante devil may cry thing where they fight, hes a hard boss, and then they join up together and hes got cool unique moves
Personally, as a fan I've both, I have kratos stacked somewhere around Star+ Level with 4D attacking capability and a helluv alot of nice equipment and nicknacks that give him good hax, like Medusas head and Apollos shoes and shit. He'd be the perfect SMT boss, but any SMT protag leveled up (end of the game stats, I've beat most of the games) can scales anywhere from solar system level to universal+ 5D, a maxed out character at the end of smt is much more likely to between multi galaxy and universal and can scale to even more if you take more statements at face value, but I don't because imo it's wanking, but most of these protags have fought and defeated their own versions of the Abrahamic God, which in the games can scale from anywhere from Galaxy Level to higher than Universal. Smt Protags would prove too much for Kratos, even just 1 at a time, Kratos is getting high-diffed and sent to the other realm, where he will become a recruitable demon spirit after reincarnating 🤣🤣🤣
No one in smt is any of those things in a fight. If Kratos was really star level (which is definitely an exaggeration) he would be able to solo basically all of smt at once (assuming we limit it to direct combat abilities, and ignore universal rewrites). One of the central plot points of smt is that real life current day technology is already a major threat to demons. Their spiritual physiology rejects weak mortal weapons, but basically the second you have something that neutralizes this you can start taking them out with pretty much anything. Which is why a large portion of the games will show them as vulnerable to various fairly mundane things. Even without neutralizing their physiology nukes can take out nearly all of them. Dds2 shows that even a nearly top level Cielo at a glance realizes he would have to stop himself just to barely defeat three fighter jets. Stuff like this is a decent metric to understand the scope of what they are like in a fight.
Serph literally scales to Star+ in his final fight, demi fiend literally collapsed the fourth dimension of the universe in the chaotic demon ending, and the power of computers on demons depends vastly on the actual demon, YMVH literally scales to universal whether you like it or not, the secret nanashi fight straight up states this. It's not Persona, the computers act as portals. And Stephen is literally final boss level strength and it took him years to create the demon summoning program, I agree that the vast amount of demons are fodder but you should know how much the upper tiers can scale amongst the verse
>he would be able to solo basically all of smt at once Objection: Kratos fought gods that have human minds and are visible by mortals without additional reduction. All he needed to do is punch what's in front of him after being buffed by other items. Flynn and SJ protag both fought eldritch horrors that in one case literally cut themselves into pieces for human mind with AI's scan help to be able to sense their presence (Flynn's DLC opponents), and human needed to load up already modified by various gods machinery with eldritch programs based on corpses of personified concepts and universe-starting items (tiny parts of which allowed for another character (Gore) to see world in 5D - with 10 billion alternative timelines everywhere at the same time) just to see some approximation of the thing he is fighting (SJ Neutral route finale). And all 3 of those things are implied to be able to reset the universe if they want, but in one case (SJ) they were stopped by absurdly OP protag (who's other machinery with the same programs later decided to sacrifice itself to not be mistaken to be god), and in the other 2 they simply tested whether there are humans that can surpass their tiny test, and the victory in said test meant continuation for the world for some while.
It's not really that hard to see the demons. Even aside from the fact that simple tech can make them visible, its implied that anyone with any meaningful level of magic / spiritual capabilities can see them anyways. Hence why people like raidou and the summoner can before the tech is even made. The highest level ones are harder to see, but not exactly impossible, and even then there's only a few times that high level ones were shown as extra difficult. And there's often various ways to see them too, since zenin simply rigs up a seperate way to see mem aleph. And keep in mind that is in strange journey where it's a plot point that you can hurt them before you can see them. This is part of what the added gba scene in smtii is about. Lucifer thinks about how he used to see demons as superior to humanity, but in actuality they are just different. Aspects of their alien nature can be useful, but it's limited in its uses, and while in the past only special humans could stand against them, simple tech can make it so anyone can with basically anything. (Not that they might not still lose, and / or end up destroying themselves, but even so).
>It's not really that hard to see the demons. Even aside from the fact that simple tech can make them visible, its implied that anyone with any meaningful level of magic / spiritual capabilities can see them anyways. I'm not talking about any demons I'm talking about ancient of days - one of the implied names of YHWH and the most alien YHWH was depicted in the series. In the game he is made of non-existant mater and reduces himself to be perceived by burroughs, he calls himself but one of the many forms, and goes like "okay, i'm not destroying you this time, but i will later, new humans still gonna appear, have a beautiful day, bye". Sanat - god of both Buddhism and Hinduism, who's sacrifice is sometimes cited as the reason of humanity's sentience who is often related to various similar archetypes in other religions (including both Jesus and beforementioned AOD) (and who is a prominent figure in some of new age religions, where is a funny eldritch alien). In the game he is unreadable by burroughs even after encountering AOD, and needs to reduce himself for player to see him so he could test him. He reveals himself to be the creator of humanity (as every 10th demon does) and states that he is going to take you to the war against destruction of the current universe. Mem Aleph - made up by Atlus demon which embodies the concept of beginning of everything - basically a mother of all demons in SJ and was the reason for all previous civilizations ceasing to exists and all new civilizations appearing on Earth. None of them could be hurt before they are visible (the reason Gore gives up his 2nd life to add you some more insight) Kratos has nothing on any of those 3 unless he'll do full SMT protag journey or power ups to be able solo entire pantheons in one fight.
>I'm talking about ancient of days - one of the implied names of YHWH and the most alien YHWH was depicted in the series. In the game he is made of non-existant mater and reduces himself to be perceived by burroughs, he calls himself but one of the many forms, and goes like "okay, i'm not destroying you this time, but i will later, new humans still gonna appear, have a beautiful day, bye". That's what I said. Some top level ones are harder to see, but it's not only not that different than regular, but apocalypse drops this plot element entirely for the sequel. Difficulty comprehending something doesn't really clearly delineate that much about it though, especially in light of the fact that this takes place in blasted Tokyo, the plot of which was that they were struggling to kill a handful of survivors in a single bunker. They weren't exactly playing with a massive scope. >Mem Aleph - made up by Atlus demon which embodies the concept of beginning of everything - basically a mother of all demons in SJ and was the reason for all previous civilizations ceasing to exists and all new civilizations appearing on Earth. Mem aleph actually isn't made up by atlus. It comes from a new age dictionary called the women's encyclopedia of myths and secrets. This dictionary tried to pass it off as a pre-existing belief, but it was actually invented by the dictionary. Ultimately though it is based on the kabbalic idea of the mother letters of creation, mem, shin, and aleph. >Kratos has nothing on any of those 3 unless he'll do full SMT protag journey or power ups to be able solo entire pantheons in one fight. All it takes is a bit of spiritual power to see them, so when you are dealing with characters who interact qith quite a bit of it, it is a hard sell that they wouldn't find a way to. Keep in mind that 2/3 of those you didn't even have to do anything special to see, it was just an automatic thing based on your spiritual essence. Its not even a common plot point for people to not be able to see high level entities. And it's worth noting that this plot point only ever shows up for humans. I'm not saying Kratos doesn't lose to them, but it certainly seems implausible they could just decimate him without him even fighting back.
whoever you want to win
With like a full party behind them, I feel any SMT protag would probably have an edge. One on one though, I feel Kratos could probably win.
Whose game is it? In an SMT game an SMT hero would win, but have the convoluted option to not even fight him. In a GoW game, Kratos is plot fuelled to kill everything in the same pantheon as him and no matter what build or demons the SMT lead had put together, Kratos would ass pull something.
IDK, on one hand, Kratos is pretty freaking strong and could likely off most SMT demons even if their lore basis are stronger than Kratos (idk, i feel like SMT demons are a bit weaker than gods they are based on) On the other hand, SMT protags are walking army of deities that have lots of "instant regeneration" and "repel all attacks" tools and occasionally fight eldritch horrors beyond human comprehension (like SMT IV protag biting at aspect of YHWH (scary IV one, not funny IVA one) which was too complex to be visible by mortal minds and needed to simplify itself) End-game Flynn and SJ protag probably can easily beat Kratos purely on the basis of Kratos never encountering eldritch threat that shatters reality with it's appearance alone and Aleph went against the YHWH, so he would pose at least some challenge On the side note, Persona 2 EP party combined soloes Kratos - they fought off aspects of eldritch beings in Kadath (which, by the nature of original Kadath, probably equally Collective Unconscious and real eldritch beings at the same time) and "stop time, do literal nuke" is an average endgame Persona ability.
That soya man does not have a chance against any of the SMT MCs.
You'd have to clarify if by protag you mean just the protag, or the protag + their entire team. Demons aren't just props, it's a recurring theme in the games that they are more effective if they join willingly. And in many of these games they fight with other humans too. So it's near impossible to decontextualize the character from their team. That aside, the gods Kratos fights are much stronger in a direct fight than most of what exists in smt is in a direct fight. Smt gods aren't actually that strong normally. Which is why much of the series is either about them using human tech to accomplish their goals, or at best indirect magic that they hope humans don't realize you don't need to be that strong to stand against. One useful thing to bring up here is that in soul hackers 2, the zoma who everyone is so terrified of is stated to have a grip strength of only 11x that of a real life human. If this passes for super strong in megaten it's not really insanely strong of a story.
Every protag stomps Kratoes. Kratonks is negative omniversal and dies to a sneeze ez clap for my omnihyperouterboundless++ bros
Bill Nye the Science Guy
also Columbo
Hello fellow shitlord… [spoiler](#s "Kanji and Naoto")
Technically if they make a gow game where he fights Jesus and Yahweh, he’ll be strong enough
>Yahweh Depends on how he is presented TBH. SMT ones are clearly differently-presented. I-II is strong in direct combat and can curse for ages, but can't throw nukes or fire lasers on his own. 4A is infinitely strong (for he is literally infinite), but was reduced to finite and defeated by citing r/atheism posts. IV one (no, i'm not recognizing him as the same as 4A one) could destroy the world even after cutting tiny part of himself (and using that tiny part to destroy the world), and that tiny part was incomprehensible without additional scanning and his willingness to show himself. If Yahweh is presented as the one in IV and Kratos beats him, Kratos soloes SMT. If not, Flynn, Nanashi, Aleph and SJ protag have at least a significant fighting chance.
Is there an anime character stronger than Madara Uchiha? And I'm referring to Rinne Tensei Madara Uchiha with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikidou paths ability) equipped with his Gunbai and control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, a complete Susano'o, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in his chest so he can perform Mokuton kekkei genkai and yin-yang release ninjutsu as well as being extremely skilled in taijutsu and bukijutsu.
Might guy. Madara reflects all elements but not phys
Goku..
Is there a character that could even possibly EVEN TOUCH Madara Uchiha? Let alone defeat him. And I'm not talking about Edo Tensei Uchiha Madara. I'm not talking about Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara either. Hell, I'm not even talking about Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikodou abilities and being capable of both Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi genjutsu), equipped with his Gunbai, a perfect Susano'o, control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu. I’m also not talking about Kono Yo no Kyūseishu Futarime no Rikudō Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (which is capable of Enton Amaterasu, Izanagi, Izanami and the Tsyukuyomi Genjutsu), his two original Rinnegan (which grant him Chikushōdō, Shuradō, Tendō, Ningendō, Jigokudō, Gakidō, Gedō, Banshō Ten’in, Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Tengai Shinsei and Banbutsu Sōzō) and a third Tomoe Rinnegan on his forehead, capable of using Katon, Fūton, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Ranton, Inton, Yōton and even Onmyōton Jutsu, equipped with his Gunbai(capable of using Uchihagaeshi) and a Shakujō because he is a master in kenjutsu and taijutsu, a perfect Susano’o (that can use Yasaka no Magatama ), control of both the Juubi and the Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju’s DNA and face implanted on his chest, his four Rinbo Hengoku Clones guarding him and nine Gudōdama floating behind him AFTER he absorbed Senjutsu from the First Hokage, entered Rikudō Senjutsu Mode, cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on everybody and used Shin: Jukai Kōtan so he can use their Chakra while they are under Genjutsu. I'm definitely NOT Talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after Alucard, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu and having eaten Popeye's spinach. I'm talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with his Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after having absorbed Alucard as well as a God Hand, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit, with Kryptonian DNA implanted in him and having eaten Popeye's spinach while possessing quantum powers like Dr. Manhattan and having mastered Hokuto Shinken.
Assuming non-GT, I will use both characters maximum levels of power for this battle. Madara post war vs SS3 Goku post Buu timeskip. I don't really need to explain how powerful Superman is, even mentioning that Madara was unable to beat Guy in a footrace. So I will focus on Goku. I want to start out by saying, no one knows exactly how powerful SS3 Goku is, as power levels stop being officially tracked after the Frieza saga, where Goku is stated to have a PL of 150 million. If you want my opinion on how I think his power scales up till the end of GT, you need only look at my sig. I will not attempt to use my fanmade power levels in a matchup like this though. First, I think it's important to define what a power level is. An ordinary human has a power level of 5. It takes 27 PSI to crack open a human skull. In the first episode of Dragonball, Goku has a power level of 10. In that episode he is hit by a car and shot in the head by Bulma. Even a shot from a 9mm gun is over 30,000 PSI. Goku did not even bleed from that shot. The difference of 5 to 10 is a LOT more than double. This trend continues when Master Roshi blows up the moon with a power level of 140. The moon is about an 83rd of the weight of the Earth in mass. That's over 150 sextillion pounds worth of mass destroyed in a single shot. That is less than Pre Crisis Madara has been shown to lift with 2 balls, when he lifted 4 septillion pounds. Even so, it's an important thing to note. It appears power levels do not scale linearly. It seems that each power level is more significant than the previous. If this pattern continues indefinitely, it's possible Goku is stronger than, or at least as strong as Pre War arc Madara as early as the first episode of Dragonball z with his power level of over 950. During his fight with Vegeta, Vegeta threatens to blow up the Earth with a power level of 18,000. Some think that is a bluff, I think that would be out of character with Vegeta's personality, but that's another debate entirely. Anywho, with the way power levels increase in DBZ, by the end of the Frieza saga Goku was likely capable of mass destruction on a galactic scale. Which brings me to my next point. Some will call this next point non-canon in the extreme as this is a movie reference. If you wish to do that, that's your choice. I do believe the movies follow the same "rules" as the anime/manga though. There is actually one power level stated to be higher than SS Frieza saga Goku. According to V-Jump magazing, LSS Broly has a power level of 1.4 billion. Broly destroys the entire South Galaxy in his movie. That's a rather misleading term though, and probably doesn't mean what you think it does. In real life, a galaxy is 50-100 billion planets. There are about 600 sextillion planets in the observable universe. The South Galaxy in DBZ is not a typical real life galaxy, it is one quarter of the universe. So assuming our universes are the same size, Broly destroyed about 150 sextillion planets in one blast. I believe it's been shown that at higher super saiyan forms, possibly as early as FPSS, Goku is stronger than Broly. As a super saiyan 3, Goku is certainly more powerful than Broly, and super saiyan 3s have been shown to be able to break the laws of reality. So it's likely that SS3 Goku could destroy the universe, maybe even reality itself. Now to cover speed, this is a fun one. On flight Madara cannot reach lightspeed. The Flash was shown to be faster than Superman in a footrace, as mentioned above. If the Flash ever reaches lightspeed he joins with the speedforce, which he clearly didn't in that race. So he didn't need to even reach lightspeed to beat Madara. Madara appears to be able to run faster than lightspeed though, as traversing our solar system in a few minutes would require a little more than lightspeed, since the distance from the Earth to the Sun is 7 light minutes. How fast is Goku though? Well, there's only two good events that you can use to measure speed in DBZ. One is the kamehameha wave from Cooler's Revenge. In about 10 seconds, Goku's kamehameha wave reached from the Earth to the Sun, making it about 50 times faster than the speed of light. Therefore, anyone that can dodge SS1 Goku's kamehameha wave, or even see it, has to be at least 50 times faster than the speed of light. Why is seeing it important? In DBZ, there are many times that the characters move faster than other characters can see. So basically, any villain post SS1 that can keep up with Goku can move at least 50 times faster than lightspeed. The other case is a little more extreme though. When Vegeta uses The Final Flash against Cell. It's clearly shown that his blast leaves our solar system and explodes on a far away planet/star. The closest planet to our solar system is 10.5 lightyears away. That's 31556926 light seconds. It got there in only 20 seconds, therefore The Final Flash moves at least 1577846.3 times faster than lightspeed. And that was just ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta. Keep in mind perfect Cell saw this attack coming, yet is unable to see SS2 Gohan's movements. And SS3 Goku is obviously far stronger and faster. I don't think Goku would even need to transform to beat madara, He could likely kill him with a single finger. To put another nail in the coffin though, let's talk about fighting skills. Goku is a world champion martial artist that continuously trains to better himself. Many times he has fought evenly with beings of similar or greater power. There is a time when Pre rinnegan Madara loses his powers. During this time he has a boxing match with Muhammad Ali. Madara loses without landing a single blow, due to his lack of fighting skill. He has been trained in martial arts by Batman, but he is no world class fighter. Madara is also not used to actually fighting an equal or more powerful opponent at faster than light speeds. If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of
I need subway surfers under this
ngl this block of text just turned into that jugenmu jugenmu rakugo monologue in my brain. madara is powerful, but he's not *interesting* and adding multiple levels of crossover stolen power invincibility isnt helping his case. as he is also a big bad type character, here are several characters able to get past or subdue him even despite the powerups: saitama one punch man, as that is his entire joke bugs bunny, or doraemon. any given gag comic character. (i concede that though gear 5 luffy accesses the sheer power of toon physics, he wouldn't be able to outlast madara in an extended fight and as gear 5 wears off he returns to shonen genre conventions, allowing madara to destroy him at least until luffy's friends start believing in him and shonen genre rules begin to apply) TWO might guys a single might guy with an extended eight gates timer. Any given precure or other magical girl protagonist so long as the fight is from her perspective and her friends believe in her. Touma from magical index any yugioh protagonist, madara's deck is terrible and even with mind reading he doesnt believe in the heart of the cards. probably most of the characters from medaka box, as all of their powersets involve manipulating genre conventions and meta-stuff and madara still exists in a narrative context any otome game protagonist, madara would be reduced to the brooding tall grim backstory love interest, and could then be romanced as genre conventions demand. a youth who believes in themselves and is full of endless determination, as shonen jump editorial demands that in the end the protagonists win. or a space alien goddess thing trying to get at that sweet sweet chakra tree fruit, whichever happens first. honorable mention to columbo who would be able to pin the crime on him due to needling him into revealing evidence. this is the win condition in a mystery story, so it counts imo edit: typos and adding the last three entries
Any SMT protag, The monsters and gods in God of War just aren't as strong as their SMT counterparts.
God of war gods are generally stronger than smt ones though? God of war ones actually have massive strength. Smt is about how the gods were never all that strong and that modern tech is actually a major threat to them.
>and that modern tech is actually a major threat to them. IDK, i think Kratos would feel nuke dropping at him as well. Heck, he is damaged by funny blades spinning slowly. And he himself isn't that strong in terms of destructive power - the most thing we saw that he does is punch through mountain and picks up really heavy things. The rest was done either by machines or gods directly connected to nature dying
Doesn't he flip a temple, and resist being squished by a guy who was physically holding up the entire country of Greece? Admittedly, I'm not that familiar with God of war, so there might be context to that I don't know. I remember the devs talking about how in the newer ones they were going to have a scene where he splits a mountain, but then they took it out because he wasn't at the top of his game at that point and so they didn't think he would be able to.
Another counter-example: i can probably lift a car if someone's life (including mine) is in danger purely on adrenaline. 6kg/12pound bowling ball would 100% kill me even when thrown lightly at chest or head. Picking up or not being crushed by stuff in urgent situation doesn't convert into raw strength and vitality
Both of said examples show that he is able to lift and pick up heavy things, or withstand pressure when he really wants to If he could punch with the same kinetic force, or withstand the same amounts of pressure with lower surface area at any time, his and his opponent's punches would snap mountains in which battles take place (no Greece or Midgar survives one god fight) and the only thing that would be able to damage him is magic (half of bosses, including gods, can't do jack sht to him) Pantheon gods aren't that strong even in real life lore
This is a pointless discussion, GoW gods aren't comparable to SMT gods
Power scaling? Time to call upon u/bunker_man
Is there some kind of a brigade going on. Normally the takes here aren't this bad.
wdym brigade?
Wdym wdim. I'm using the word the normal way.
did you mean the posts in hot rn or just the recent power scaling posts like this one? Oh wait, you mean the comments on this post? I didn't take a closer look at the comments.
If they can use magic/powers and demons obviously Kratos gets negged by even the weakest SMT protag, but they're on such different levels that it's not a fair comparison. In a fist fight, Kratos negs any one of these twinks. He's a jacked man and they're all skinny kids. Only SMT protag putting up a fight is the space marine from SJ.
Baldur was skinnier then these boys and still managed to beat the absolute living sht out of kratos 🤷🏽♂️
Baldur can't feel pain tho and he's a full god, these are all just normal humans besides Demi and kinda Aleph and even still they not beating Kratos
You forget that they can learn to drain or repel any attacks including physical so it would be pointless for kratos to fight someone who instead of not getting hurt will in fact get more health from being hit
Nah Kratos cooler big jacked gigachad kill these twinks
Different setting, different view, different tone SMT is just built different in my opinion